ALISON BEARD: The entertainment, media, and marketing industries have changed dramatically since both of you started your careers.

ALISON BEARD: There was cable and then internet and then streaming and then social.

ALISON BEARD: So what would you say is really the secret to capturing attention now, whether it's an individual or a show or a corporate brand?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Sure, I mean, God, you made it sound like we started in the stone ages, girl.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I mean--

ALISON BEARD: I mean, that's when I started, so.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Speak for yourself.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: No, but you're right.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Look, the landscape has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: The way that consumers listen to entertainment or watch entertainment has changed.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I find that being on top of just what people are--how they are communicating with each other is the only way in which to mimic so that you can be part of the conversation.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And that's whether you're a brand or an individual, a show like ours. I mean, obviously, Jimmy is on TV every day. And so he has the pressure of being able to evolve so that he can continue to keep the audience that he has.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So I guess my perspective is just from a brand lens, which is that in order to stay relevant, you really do have to pay attention to the time.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: What worked 20 years ago certainly wouldn't work today.

JIMMY FALLON: I think it changes day by day by day by day.

JIMMY FALLON: You never really can--and there's probably, like, a couple--there's a couple of weeks where you go like, hey, this is where everyone's going.

JIMMY FALLON: And then it changes, like, nope. They invented a new thing called Flip-Flop.

JIMMY FALLON: Everyone's on Flip-Flop.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, what?

JIMMY FALLON: I never even heard of that.

JIMMY FALLON: And they go, oh, you got to sign up. You're late to the game.

JIMMY FALLON: But it's always changing, and I'm always interested in seeing what the next moves are, especially on social media.

JIMMY FALLON: When we first started late night, I remember one of our producers, Gavin Purcell, who's fantastic. He was like, you got to get on Twitter.

JIMMY FALLON: And I was like, what is that?

JIMMY FALLON: He's like, well, it's this thing, and he's explaining Twitter to me.

JIMMY FALLON: I go, OK.

JIMMY FALLON: And then I'm like, and we'll put our shows on Twitter?

JIMMY FALLON: He goes, yeah, we can do streaming shows, just before we even start up late night just to gather, get a following going.

JIMMY FALLON: And I remember getting, like, maybe 100 followers, and I was jumping up and down.

JIMMY FALLON: I was that into it because I could see the metrics and the data.

JIMMY FALLON: I love metrics. I love data.

JIMMY FALLON: I love to see how things go up or down or sideways or what type of people are listening or retweeting.

JIMMY FALLON: I love all that type of stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: So we just jumped on and tried everything when it comes out and see if it works for you.

JIMMY FALLON: And you kind of have to learn it and adapt to it.

JIMMY FALLON: And I think number one is still YouTube as far as growth and how much engagement with everybody.

JIMMY FALLON: It's just the biggest thing.

JIMMY FALLON: And I don't know if there's anything close.

ALISON BEARD: When you have, though, all these channels varying in popularity, but all the smart people and shows and brands are on them or trying all of them, how do you sort of craft either a persona or a campaign that can break through all of that noise?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Well, I think some of it has to be consistency.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Just back to the last question, I also want to give props to Jimmy himself as a person because he really does throw himself into the creative and into the work.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So yes, social media is a powerful tool.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But without him actually being in it and doing the trend every day, it's not just like, oh, there's this tool and this platform out there, and try to engage on it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Jimmy is putting himself in the work.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I think that's actually necessary, whether it's a show or a brand, that the consistency is how you show up.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But if, every day, you're trying to be something different on the platform, nobody's going to trust you.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: People don't like that.

JIMMY FALLON: Thanks for saying that, but I think it's also how you find your brand.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: By trying everything on.

JIMMY FALLON: You go, hey, do I wear bangs?

JIMMY FALLON: Do I have a bob?

JIMMY FALLON: Do I have a short hair?

JIMMY FALLON: You have to try it to see if that's your style.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, hey, I think I found my style, everybody.

JIMMY FALLON: I think for me, growing up, I was a very fad type of person.

JIMMY FALLON: I was very into fads and trying new things.

JIMMY FALLON: And I was wearing zipper pants.

JIMMY FALLON: This is in the '80s.

ALISON BEARD: Jams, Jams.

JIMMY FALLON: Jams, they're the best.

JIMMY FALLON: I love my Jams.

JIMMY FALLON: Oh my gosh.

ALISON BEARD: Peg leg jeans, yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: I had all that stuff, and I go, is this my move?

JIMMY FALLON: Is this going to be--yes, I thought I found it.

JIMMY FALLON: But it was those--that generation, I feel like they were just fads.

JIMMY FALLON: There were things that were in for, like, two years and then out.

JIMMY FALLON: Even the music in the '80s, it's a lot more one-hit wonders, I think, than any decade.

JIMMY FALLON: But that was because everyone was trying new things and seeing what's happening.

JIMMY FALLON: So I think my brain, growing up in that generation of having one-offs and one-hit wonders and things constantly changing and what am into, probably influenced who I am today and how I can function with changing things.

JIMMY FALLON: And are you good with change?

JIMMY FALLON: A lot of people aren't good with change.

JIMMY FALLON: And it freaks people out, and they go, ah, I can't have a new office.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm used to my old office.

JIMMY FALLON: I go, same office.

JIMMY FALLON: It's, what are you doing in there?

JIMMY FALLON: It's the same deal.

ALISON BEARD: Different platform, same person.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, I think so.

JIMMY FALLON: But like Bozoma was saying, you have to try and got to get up to bat and swing.

JIMMY FALLON: And sometimes you hit a home run, sometimes you strike out, but at least you're trying.

ALISON BEARD: Both of you have very strong personal brands.

ALISON BEARD: And I think a lot of that comes from authenticity.

ALISON BEARD: But how did you think about that as you built your careers, Bozoma, for you in marketing with big jobs at Pepsi and Uber and Apple and Netflix, and Jimmy, for you with moving from comedy to standup to SNL to films and then late night?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: A personal brand is such an interesting thing because many people will say that, oh, that's a waste of time, especially if you're in corporate settings.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But really, it's just new language for what a reputation is.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And for me, it's like, look, when I started out in this business, of course I was trying to mimic the successful people ahead of me.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It's like I looked at the corner offices and said, OK, what are they wearing?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: How do they talk in meetings?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: What are the ideas they bring?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: How do they do the thing they do, and why do people listen to them?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I just tried to mimic it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Unfortunately, that did not work.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And it didn't work for all the reasons that now, as more mature adults, we know is because it just didn't fit.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And you can't be authentic.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I know it's an overused word.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But like we were saying before, even as Jimmy explained about trying things on and seeing what fits, for me, it was like this unraveling of who I was trying to be versus who I am.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And then my personal brand became what it is and is because it's actually just me.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I do wear interesting clothes, and I do gesture a lot with my hands, and I cry because I get emotional, and my hair is always something different, because all of those things allow me the freedom to be exactly who I am in every room.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And it has made me a better executive. It has made me a better mother. It's made me a better friend. It's made me a better contributor to society and a better creative for all those reasons.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so I think the personal brand gets a little confused sometimes because people are trying to strategize around it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I'm like, no, if you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time.

JIMMY FALLON: Is it because people can trust you?

JIMMY FALLON: Because--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, right, yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: Because you're like, that's Boz.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You never come out of character.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You know what I mean?

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, you don't have to--yeah, that's why--yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: I forget who said it, but someone said, yeah--God, I always tell the truth because it's too much work to lie.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yes, it's too much work.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It's too much work to lie.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, it's too hard.

ALISON BEARD: What about you, Jimmy?

JIMMY FALLON: I think when I first started out, I was just hungry, and I was focused on getting on Saturday Night Live.

JIMMY FALLON: That was my goal.

JIMMY FALLON: So I did standup, and I did impressions of celebrities because I knew that Saturday Night Live used those people on the show to do characters and impressions.

JIMMY FALLON: So that was going to be my way into Saturday Night Live.

JIMMY FALLON: So I would do--in my standup, I would do impressions of, like, John Travolta, I'd be like, Jesus, I swear to God, I can't, like, believe this over here, like, Sandy, what's going on, right?

JIMMY FALLON: I'm like, dude, I don't know why Saturday Night Live would need a John Travolta impersonator, but that was part of my act.

JIMMY FALLON: But that led to other characters, which led to me doing Adam Sandler, where it's like, [ADAM SANDLER IMITATION], and it's like--

JIMMY FALLON: And you do all that type of stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: And then you go, oh, that stuff we can maybe use.

JIMMY FALLON: And I just think that was my ultimate goal was just getting into Saturday Night Live, and let's just check that off.

JIMMY FALLON: That's the bucket list per se, or whatever you call it.

JIMMY FALLON: But that was my goal.

JIMMY FALLON: And I got that at 23.

JIMMY FALLON: And then, once you get it, you go, OK, now what do I do with this?

JIMMY FALLON: Because I didn't plan ahead.

JIMMY FALLON: I didn't have three other goals.

JIMMY FALLON: That was it for me.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm like, uh-oh, I got to figure out what my next goal is.

JIMMY FALLON: So the next parts were kind of interesting because you're like, now you're here.

JIMMY FALLON: What is your next goal?

JIMMY FALLON: Do you want to be a movie star?

JIMMY FALLON: Do you want to be a sitcom star?

JIMMY FALLON: Do you want to record music?

JIMMY FALLON: What is your thing?

JIMMY FALLON: I had no clue.

JIMMY FALLON: So I've kind of had to think of a new goal and find it as I was going and see if it kind of fit.

JIMMY FALLON: I think always for me, as far as material-wise, it was very family-friendly.

JIMMY FALLON: I never really cursed in my act.

JIMMY FALLON: I was kind of almost prudish.

JIMMY FALLON: I think it was my Irish Catholic upbringing.

JIMMY FALLON: So that kind of stayed on brand.

JIMMY FALLON: But I think I kind of just grew and said, well, maybe I can do this.

JIMMY FALLON: And then if that didn't work out--

JIMMY FALLON: I tried movies.

JIMMY FALLON: They didn't really work.

JIMMY FALLON: And then you just go back to just trying stuff and seeing what sticks.

JIMMY FALLON: And getting into the talk show world, I didn't really what I was doing either there.

JIMMY FALLON: But I got a lot of practice, and I was on at 12:30 at night, where no one was watching.

ALISON BEARD: I think a few people were watching.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, maybe prison guards.

JIMMY FALLON: I don't who else--and college kids.

JIMMY FALLON: But I had to do that and figure out there how to have an interview, how to talk to somebody.

JIMMY FALLON: Am I nervous?

JIMMY FALLON: I still get nervous, you know.

JIMMY FALLON: But it's fun.

JIMMY FALLON: It's because I care, I think.

JIMMY FALLON: And I want to do a great job.

JIMMY FALLON: But you get another opportunity, and then you grow, and you see how you can do that best.

JIMMY FALLON: And then you see what other challenges are out there and see how you can--

ALISON BEARD: It sounds like you both very much found your distinct lanes, despite the fact that you're both in crowded fields.

ALISON BEARD: How would each of you describe your leadership brand?

ALISON BEARD: Because you're both bosses.

ALISON BEARD: You're running organizations. You're running shows. You're running teams of people.

ALISON BEARD: So what is your unique style or the unique thing that you bring--

JIMMY FALLON: I think Boz is better at--

ALISON BEARD: --to a collaborative team?

JIMMY FALLON: Boz is better at this than I am.

ALISON BEARD: No, but you an informal leader, even if you're not called the CEO of The Tonight Show or the CEO of NBC entertainment, you know?

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, but he's still my boss.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I mean, I still consider him my boss, honestly.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So, I mean, you're leader of me, if nothing else.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, come on.

JIMMY FALLON: But you have that feeling when you get in the room with Bozoma Saint John, and you go, whoa.

JIMMY FALLON: This is like--

ALISON BEARD: She's in charge.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, where you feel like someone--yeah, someone smart is in the room, whereas I'm here, it's like, oh my gosh, Uncle Buck is here.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Oh my god.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You're so ridiculous.

JIMMY FALLON: Substitute teacher is here.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm always reading books, and I'd be curious to ask you also what books I should read for management.

JIMMY FALLON: And I love all that stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: And I love self-help books and learning constantly about how to do it better, and even if not, remind yourself of what works and what doesn't work.

JIMMY FALLON: Being mad doesn't work.

JIMMY FALLON: I know that.

JIMMY FALLON: So if you're--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, being mad doesn't work.

JIMMY FALLON: It just doesn't, right?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It's so interesting.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I think my leadership style has changed, of course, over years and different experiences, like the way that I led my Apple Music team in launching the brand and the service itself was far different from the way I led when I became chief marketing officer of Netflix, one, because they were so different in terms of not just the product, but the time.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I started at Netflix, we were two months into the pandemic, and I remember my first staff meeting.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I mean, there's, like, well over a thousand marketers, and I didn't see anybody's face.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I think I'm the kind of leader that does need to be in the room.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I like to be in front of people.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I want to see your face and your reaction and see if what I'm saying is inspiring.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Is it funny?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Are you confused by what I'm saying?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I need all of that to be able to--

JIMMY FALLON: A reaction.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, I need something.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I was just looking at this green dot, you know?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And it was such an impossible time of trying to inspire people to be more creative and think out of the box and all of the things that we say at a time when nobody knew what the hell was going on.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But the constant theme throughout, I think, for me in leadership has always been knowing the detail of what is going on, understanding what people are interested in on my teams, because the challenges that-- you put all of the pressure on the results, and you don't think about the people.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I have had the kind of career where, in order to really do the work, we had to be so close to culture that I needed different types of people on my team, people who didn't know what I know, who know things differently.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I take a lot from physics, which is the idea of matter, that matter is made up of molecules.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And you change one molecule, and the entire matter changes.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And for me, I'm like, matter is a team, the people that I'm working with.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And you change one molecule, and the whole thing changes.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so understanding the importance of every single person who is contributing--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: they can be the assistant or they could be the SVP of a region.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Their contributions are so important.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so making people know that so that they want to show up to their job, they want to do the best job that they can do, because they know how important they are because I told them that, has been a constant leadership tool for me.

JIMMY FALLON: Also, what you just said, too, also showing up, I think, is one thing that you learn the more you do this is that all the great leaders show up.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yes.

JIMMY FALLON: Whether it's a restaurant--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: I've seen restaurants fail all because you go, hey, we had a great year.

JIMMY FALLON: I don't have to go in anymore.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, no.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Wait, Jimmy, I'm going to interrupt you.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I'm going to interrupt you one second because, actually, I have a story about Jimmy on his leadership.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And this is going to embarrass you, so whatever.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You just have to deal with it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: We had, like, over 270 crew members, I think, on On Brand.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I've always felt that I'm a friendly person.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I see people, I say hello, all of that stuff.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But I've never seen anyone do it like Jimmy does, meaning that--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: we were walking onto set one day, and somebody was nailing something on a wall, bent over in the corner.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And Jimmy was like, hey, bud, you're doing a great job.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I've never seen anybody do that in my life what I mean.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Just paying attention to the small things, and I think just the showing up is also in recognizing people's contributions.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so for Jimmy, I think leadership is not just how he commands a production to be done or his contributions to, oh, let's use this line or change this word, but also making people feel like they are part of something even bigger and that they're important.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I saw that in action.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It wasn't some theory.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So you could stop being embarrassed now, Jimmy.

ALISON BEARD: It sounds like the sort of infectious spirit that you bring to the show, to public-facing engagements.

ALISON BEARD: You're also--

JIMMY FALLON: It was so fun.

ALISON BEARD: --practicing behind the scenes.

ALISON BEARD: Did you learn that leadership style, the idea of keeping it fun, of showing gratitude to even the smallest players?

ALISON BEARD: Did you learn that on SNL from people like Lorne Michaels?

JIMMY FALLON: Lorne Michaels, yeah, definitely.

JIMMY FALLON: I think that's one of the things I learned from him is showing up and just being there for everybody.

JIMMY FALLON: I think the power of gratitude--one of my biggest lessons I learned from Cameron Crowe, who's a great writer, director, but he directed me.

JIMMY FALLON: I was in Almost Famous.

JIMMY FALLON: You can cue the applause now.

ALISON BEARD: I thought you were going to go straight to Fever Pitch, but OK.

JIMMY FALLON: No, I'll start with my first one.

JIMMY FALLON: I'll go into my filmography after that.

JIMMY FALLON: This podcast is three hours, right?

JIMMY FALLON: All right, perfect.

JIMMY FALLON: So I remember I was on set, and I saw Cameron giving notes to this extra.

JIMMY FALLON: And he was like, OK, you had a long day.

JIMMY FALLON: OK, you got three more tables, and then you get to go home, and blah, blah, blah.

JIMMY FALLON: And he was just giving direction to this extra.

JIMMY FALLON: And then they did action, and the extras didn't have any lines.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: It was just in the background.

JIMMY FALLON: And I was like, whoa, and he didn't--no one was looking at him.

JIMMY FALLON: It was just him and this extra talking.

JIMMY FALLON: And he made that person feel like a million bucks.

JIMMY FALLON: And that made everybody go, like, we're all doing this.

JIMMY FALLON: Everybody's worth something here.

JIMMY FALLON: This is awesome.

JIMMY FALLON: And I'll never forget that.

JIMMY FALLON: It was the coolest thing that he did.

JIMMY FALLON: So I think a combo of that and Lorne Michaels and Saturday Night Live and, I think, all the different hosts that come in on Saturday Night Live, too, and talking to all of them and seeing how--yeah, I think--

ALISON BEARD: Some people brought that sort of positive addition to the matter that Boz was talking about and some didn't, I imagine.

JIMMY FALLON: And caring, yeah, and just going, oh, that was great what you did, I like that, or when these celebrities host Saturday Night Live, they're coming to a place that they're not used to.

JIMMY FALLON: So if you have **Robert De Niro**（罗伯特·德尼罗）， for example, he's not used to being on--

JIMMY FALLON: I remember him asking me where his mark was.

JIMMY FALLON: Jimmy, where's my mark?

JIMMY FALLON: And I'm like, I'm not going to tell Robert De Niro anything.

JIMMY FALLON: You can stand wherever you want, dude.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm good.

JIMMY FALLON: He's like, no, I didn't really know because I've never done this.

JIMMY FALLON: And I go, oh, it's right there, and then you're going to land--you're going to say the lines facing that way.

JIMMY FALLON: He's like, OK, cool.

JIMMY FALLON: Just help each other.

JIMMY FALLON: We're on the team now.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm like, I just totally helped--I gave direction to Robert De Niro.

JIMMY FALLON: What is going on in my life?

JIMMY FALLON: And he loved it, and he was--and we were laughing, and it was just great.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah.

ALISON BEARD: So we all know that the best creative teams come from putting people together with diverse points of view and everyone sharing their ideas and brainstorming together.

ALISON BEARD: But how do you all, as strong personalities with good ideas, I imagine, because you've been very successful, how do you balance sort of expressing your own opinions, putting your own stamp on things, with also working collaboratively and bringing in the opinions of others?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: That's a tough one.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah, that's a good one.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: For me, I get very passionate in every job I've had--passionate about how the things should land because I'm like, oh, I know that's going to garner results.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Sometimes I've been wrong.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But I always have a strong point of view.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But I'm thinking back to times when it's like, look, as part of a creative team, this is outside of my own leadership, which is that you do have to follow the direction of whomever is in charge.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It's kind of like any--like a coach or like a general or something.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: If everybody doesn't fall in line, it's liable that you go wrong, you konw?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so at some point, as a creative, you can have a strong point of view.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You can have a strong idea.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You can think it's the best one.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But if it is not the one that goes forward, you have to submit and help the next person.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so even just going back to your question about leadership, it is something I've always encouraged my teams, which is that once I've been in the seat as the CMO to decide which idea goes forward, and now everybody get behind that idea.

ALISON BEARD: Disagree and then commit.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Oh, I think my idea is better, and oh, we should have done this, should have done that.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: That's when we're all going to fail.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And now we're all in the same boat.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So it's like once an idea has been chosen to go forward, everybody put your energy into making sure that idea is what wins.

ALISON BEARD: How do you steer people with good, well-meaning ideas in better directions?

JIMMY FALLON: I always find with me, I always--this is just me, but I always like to say at least my point of view on something just to say it.

JIMMY FALLON: And then there's probably someone in the room that might be better at whatever the thing is.

JIMMY FALLON: And I'll let them hear my idea, and hopefully it sparks something that they can land the plane.

JIMMY FALLON: And I don't need to take credit for it.

JIMMY FALLON: But I can hopefully spark something that made them go like, oh yeah, we can take a piece of that, but I've done this before.

JIMMY FALLON: For instance, Southwest, we did this episode last night that you watched.

JIMMY FALLON: But the challenge was to wrap a plane, basically paint the side of an airplane, a giant airplane.

JIMMY FALLON: So it's a big thing.

JIMMY FALLON: And we're going, well, blah, blah, blah, how do you do that?

JIMMY FALLON: Well, it's going to be seen by a lot of people.

JIMMY FALLON: And then Bozoma goes, well, when I wrapped a plane for Beats.

JIMMY FALLON: I go, you wrapped a plane?

JIMMY FALLON: Who else--I mean, we're talking to someone who's done this.

JIMMY FALLON: How many people do you that wrapped a plane before?

JIMMY FALLON: I mean, what are you talking about?

ALISON BEARD: I don't.

JIMMY FALLON: It was just--yeah, I know.

JIMMY FALLON: Now you do.

JIMMY FALLON: Now you know two people.

JIMMY FALLON: But, I mean, it's wild.

JIMMY FALLON: It was like, she knows--she's done this.

JIMMY FALLON: What hits?

JIMMY FALLON: What do people look at?

JIMMY FALLON: What do they see?

JIMMY FALLON: What are the things that pop?

JIMMY FALLON: And you kind of go, that's great.

JIMMY FALLON: We have someone that's played the game before.

ALISON BEARD: So, Jimmy, why at this point in your career did you feel qualified to host a show on branding and marketing?

JIMMY FALLON: I think because of all the years of late night and Tonight Show, and my job is basically selling things for my guests.

JIMMY FALLON: I have them on, and I pitch their movies or their music, or I'm selling their wares, their products.

JIMMY FALLON: And I've kind of enjoyed it when we have an integration or some brand goes, hey, is there any way you can mention toilet paper this week in the show?

JIMMY FALLON: And I go, love it. Bring it on.

JIMMY FALLON: What do you want?

JIMMY FALLON: I can write whatever I want, right?

JIMMY FALLON: I go, I will think of something.

JIMMY FALLON: And then I go, yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: And we'll talk about, hey, do you put the toilet paper roll over the top or do you put the toilet paper roll with the paper coming under?

JIMMY FALLON: And you have a debate, and people get in fights, and it's funny.

JIMMY FALLON: And that's a fun challenge.

JIMMY FALLON: So I've done that for the past 15 years.

JIMMY FALLON: So that's a long time.

JIMMY FALLON: A lot of shows--I think Tonight Show is hitting almost, like, its 2,300th show or something crazy.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Oh my god.

JIMMY FALLON: So I kind of love the stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: And I had a weird--again, just an odd idea.

JIMMY FALLON: And I love to throw them out to people.

JIMMY FALLON: And so I pitched it to NBC.

JIMMY FALLON: I typed it up on my iPad.

JIMMY FALLON: I bothered my wife with all these questions for, like, months.

JIMMY FALLON: And then I go, I think this is something I can pitch.

JIMMY FALLON: And they said, no, but thank you so much.

JIMMY FALLON: You keep those ideas coming, buddy, and stay strong at late night.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, OK.

JIMMY FALLON: And then I was like--I didn't let it die.

JIMMY FALLON: I was like, I really do think this is something you should give a chance to.

JIMMY FALLON: I think it's different.

JIMMY FALLON: And as Bozoma was saying, at one point, we were talking about this, and we were like--because it's a brand-new type of business structure, even, for paying for the show and all this stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: But what Boz was saying, it's kind of like a new playground.

JIMMY FALLON: It's a new toy to play with for brands.

JIMMY FALLON: How much fun can we have?

ALISON BEARD: Yeah, the companies are sort of sponsoring each episode, basically.

ALISON BEARD: And so the advertisement isn't necessarily what's generated by the contestants.

ALISON BEARD: It's the show itself.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I also want to say that I know Jimmy--he's creative, and he has done a lot of work with brands.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But he's also a student of marketing.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I don't want to let that academic part go, because we were just on a show together where we're playing a little quiz game of like, oh, the taglines and this and that.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And Jimmy, he was getting them.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And not only that, he's got the jingles, and he remembers.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so it's like for someone who hasn't had a formal career in marketing, he's still an ad guy.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I would consider him an ad guy.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so there's a natural love and curiosity for the business of marketing and advertising.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so that, I think, also has a great deal to do with why it's natural for him to be the one who developed the show and brought it to the world.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: I mean, I love a good--don't you love to see a good campaign?

ALISON BEARD: Yes, absolutely.

JIMMY FALLON: I love a great--I think **Ryan Reynolds**（瑞安·雷诺兹） is knocking it out of the park.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Amazing.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Amazing.

ALISON BEARD: Actually, he's going to write an article in our next--well, co-author an article in our next issue about fastvertising and how to quickly capitalize--

JIMMY FALLON: Oh, he's the best.

JIMMY FALLON: He's the best at that.

ALISON BEARD: --on a cultural moment.

JIMMY FALLON: Also, probably, people wouldn't have normally given him a chance had he been on a team or a famous ad agency.

JIMMY FALLON: I mean, I think he used his fame to go, like, give me a chance.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm going to roll the dice on this.

ALISON BEARD: It sounds like you're saying that in this very crowded marketplace, as companies are thinking about how to break through, whether it's small ones or massive ones, brand integration is one avenue that everyone's keen.

ALISON BEARD: There is a sort of obviousness to it, though, right?

ALISON BEARD: So how do you do it in a way that does feel authentic and not just like, ugh, I'm being marketed to right now?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Well, I think it should be obvious.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Right?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I feel like that's where brands go wrong when they try to be in a place where they're not naturally.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: We excuse Jimmy because he can actually do it very well.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So toilet paper maybe doesn't belong on his desk, but he's going to find a way to bring it in.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: But the challenge most times is that brands are trying to find integration in scenarios where they simply shouldn't be, because it's not natural for them to be there.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And that's why it falls apart, not because somebody was like sitting there holding their thing, and saying, hey, look at this thing, but because it just wasn't natural to them.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so it's like, look, when you're in the space, it should be obvious that I picked up my Pepsi and drank it because I was thirsty.

ALISON BEARD: And then the second sort of avenue you talked about was this idea of capitalizing on cultural moments.

ALISON BEARD: And, Jimmy, you certainly do that with your show.

ALISON BEARD: Bozoma, you did it, I'm sure, working at Netflix and Apple and all these sort of fast-paced consumer brands.

ALISON BEARD: So talk about how you do that in a way that doesn't seem hamhanded and actually does sort of reach the audience you're trying to get to.

JIMMY FALLON: Again, there has to be some authenticity behind it, too, even though it is the moment.

JIMMY FALLON: But you take the moment, and how do you make it you?

JIMMY FALLON: So if it is doing a Taylor Swift dance challenge, I can do it with Taylor.

JIMMY FALLON: The other way to do it is to just do the dance challenge myself and be a 51-year-old man trying to do a dance challenge on TikTok.

JIMMY FALLON: And that's what it looks like.

JIMMY FALLON: And it's like, that's more authentic.

JIMMY FALLON: He's acting his age.

JIMMY FALLON: I mean, I'm feeling it now.

JIMMY FALLON: My era, I'm feeling I'm going into my old man era, or getting older era.

JIMMY FALLON: I feel like if I'm in a high-top table, if I go to a restaurant with a high-top, if I drop my napkin, I'm not picking it up.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: No, no.

JIMMY FALLON: My back will hurt, and I will--

ALISON BEARD: And we definitely can't read the writing on the menus either, so.

JIMMY FALLON: No, I'm done.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm not the person yet that turns the flashlight on, but I'm real close.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I'm there.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You know what I mean?

JIMMY FALLON: I'm real close.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ALISON BEARD: So speaking of sort of being of the moment as a star, as a show, as a brand, it is a very divisive time politically in the US.

ALISON BEARD: We've seen companies come under fire for moves, celebrities canceled, and executives are really unsure what sort of risks they can take right now.

ALISON BEARD: And I think the most recent example, obviously, in your world, Jimmy, is ABC pulling **Jimmy Kimmel**（吉米·坎摩尔） off the air for comments about **Charlie Kirk**（查理·柯克）。

ALISON BEARD: And you have made a point of being family-friendly and apolitical.

ALISON BEARD: So just talk a little bit about why you've made that decision and are sticking to it.

ALISON BEARD: And then I'd love to hear from both of you on how you think that corporate brands can navigate this moment and do the right thing, speak out in moments that they find appropriate, but then not get embroiled in controversy.

ALISON BEARD: Jimmy, why don't you start?

JIMMY FALLON: I mean, it's also tricky, and it's all kind of moving very fast.

JIMMY FALLON: Obviously, if there's a case of government versus the artist, I'm on the artist's side.

JIMMY FALLON: I think everyone should be able to say whatever they want.

JIMMY FALLON: It's all--I think for me, I've kind of learned from Saturday Night Live how close you can get to the edge for myself, which is being authentic.

JIMMY FALLON: My monologues have kind of always been kind of the same.

JIMMY FALLON: I have probably four or five jokes that are kind of about the political world and then five jokes about fast food or something.

JIMMY FALLON: And I think if you look in the New York Times the next day, my jokes are up there with all the other guys.

JIMMY FALLON: But I just diversify myself with more poppy stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: That's just because of what I'm into.

JIMMY FALLON: They do it better than me, the politics stuff.

JIMMY FALLON: That's what they do.

JIMMY FALLON: And I'm happy that we have different voices out there and all talking.

JIMMY FALLON: And if you want that, you can get it.

JIMMY FALLON: And so I think I just stick to what I do best, whether it be me dressing up as a showgirl and dancing with the K-pop Demon Hunters, that feels on brand to me.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm not sure if I would want to see any of the other guys do that.

JIMMY FALLON: I can only pay attention to myself and do what I think is the funniest, sharpest, and most entertaining stuff every night.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Yeah.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I think in the executive world, it gets tricky because you're representing yourself as an executive, but you're also representing the company.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Where I think sometimes executives get scared, of course, is that their own personal view is going to be taken out of context or punish the company in a way.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I'm like, that is the truth.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: So grow up.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Take a stand.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Say something.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And if you get fired, so be it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I remember that I was having a lot of these conversations five years ago when Black Lives Matter was popping off and George Floyd had been murdered,

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: and people were like, oh, should we make a statement?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I had so many friends in the executive space.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: We were in our little group chats, and people were like, what should I say?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I'm like, well, what do you believe?

JIMMY FALLON: Start there.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You got to start with wherever you are.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And I think, first of all, this is way different from 20 years ago, where the society did not expect to understand who's behind the wall.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: It's like now people want to know, what did the CEO think?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: What is their opinion on things?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Where do they stand?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: What does the company care for?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Those are all things that our consumers and our audiences want to know.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And unfortunately, if that has backlash, then that is the job.

ALISON BEARD: What advice would you give to the senior leaders in our audience who are trying to make their brands stand out right now, especially when it's hard to take risks, in the economic climate and in the political climate?

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Well, I don't know why you have your job if you can't have a stance on something.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You have to have an opinion, whether that is cultural opinion or it is an opinion about innovation and what you're going to create next for your company.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: I don't know of any senior leader who's been put in the job just to tread water.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You've got to actually make a change.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You've got to actually make some impact in the work that you're doing.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: And so I think you can hear it in my expression that I don't have a lot of respect for leaders who come in and do nothing.

ALISON BEARD: Jimmy?

JIMMY FALLON: I think be different as much as you can.

JIMMY FALLON: Be different.

JIMMY FALLON: Take chances.

JIMMY FALLON: Take risks.

JIMMY FALLON: Everyone says take risks, obviously, but I mean really do something fresh.

JIMMY FALLON: Do something new and something we haven't seen, and that will pop.

JIMMY FALLON: I think you've seen that with Super Bowl commercials, which I always go back to.

JIMMY FALLON: I'm just a fan.

JIMMY FALLON: But having a celebrity in a commercial used to be the big thing.

JIMMY FALLON: Blah, blah, blah, it's Michael Jackson drinking Pepsi.

JIMMY FALLON: Oh my gosh.

JIMMY FALLON: Now that's every commercial.

JIMMY FALLON: So now what do you do?

JIMMY FALLON: Because that already is done.

JIMMY FALLON: Sometimes it was a QR code.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, what is that?

JIMMY FALLON: That was the whole ad.

JIMMY FALLON: I don't even if it worked, but it was something different.

JIMMY FALLON: And it popped.

JIMMY FALLON: And you go, people were talking about it.

JIMMY FALLON: So I think there's many ways to attack it from different angles.

JIMMY FALLON: And I think just write them all out, see what way you can do it, and try to see what's the next or clever or different angle that no one else is doing.

JIMMY FALLON: And if you can do that and have people think that they've seen it before, that is the secret sauce because if you go like, oh yeah, I'm used to that, of course.

JIMMY FALLON: Where's the beef?

JIMMY FALLON: I always say that.

JIMMY FALLON: What?

JIMMY FALLON: Did you say where the--no, that's the--right?

JIMMY FALLON: If you can hit that thing where you're like--

ALISON BEARD: Surprise?

ALISON BEARD: Yeah, surprise--

JIMMY FALLON: Or you hit a jingle.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah.

ALISON BEARD: Surprise that it becomes instantly familiar.

JIMMY FALLON: Yes, yes.

JIMMY FALLON: Well said, well said.

ALISON BEARD: OK, I have one recommendation for next season--an AI contestant.

JIMMY FALLON: Mm.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Oh, oh, that's interesting.

JIMMY FALLON: Wow.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Wow.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: That would be something because that's a whole--

JIMMY FALLON: I think that'd be--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: [INAUDIBLE]. OK--

JIMMY FALLON: Oh, I think it would be--

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Alison wants us to be embroiled in controversy is what's happening.

JIMMY FALLON: I think that would be--

ALISON BEARD: No, I think it would be really interesting.

JIMMY FALLON: --hilarious.

ALISON BEARD: It's brainstorming.

ALISON BEARD: It's developing concepts.

ALISON BEARD: It's thinking out of the box.

JIMMY FALLON: Do you think it would work?

JIMMY FALLON: I don't think it would work.

ALISON BEARD: I don't know, I mean, or maybe AI assistants?

ALISON BEARD: Something.

ALISON BEARD: I did talk to an executive who said the one thing AI doesn't have is taste.

ALISON BEARD: And so maybe that is the problem.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: That's what it is.

JIMMY FALLON: Yeah.

ALISON BEARD: OK.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Well, we had some people who didn't have taste either So there you go.

JIMMY FALLON: Exactly.

ALISON BEARD: Well, thank you both so much for your time.

ALISON BEARD: I really appreciate it.

JIMMY FALLON: This is awesome.

JIMMY FALLON: We loved it.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: Thank you so much.