Nicolola Tangian: Hi everyone, I'm Nicolola Tangian, the CEO of the Norwegian So and Wealth Fund, and today I'm here with Robert Gentz who is visiting us in Oslo. And Robert is the co-founder and Co-CEO of Zalando, which is, of course, as you know, all of you, Europe's leading online fashion platform. Robert started Zalando in 2008, right as the financial crisis hit, and most people thought that selling shoes online was a terrible idea. But now, 17 years later, Zalando serves more than 50 million customers across 25 European markets. We own a lot of shares in this company, and it's really exciting to have you here.

Robert Gentz: Yeah, thank you very much for for inviting me and having me.

Nicolola Tangian: And of course, since you own the biggest kind of fashion thing, uh, in the world. What do you what do you wear today?

Robert Gentz: Like I'm I'm very very dark today. So everything that I wear I actually got from Zalando today. So it's

Nicolola Tangian: it's a bit like Steve Jobs like your sweater. I mean today actually I

Robert Gentz: Yeah. sweater. I mean today actually I felt like in Norway you kind of have to dress a little bit warmer.

Nicolola Tangian: Good uh good idea. Now Rob, let's go back to um to the start. You founded uh Zalando in 2008 just as the financial crisis uh was kind of hitting the world. So tell me about the very start.

Robert Gentz: Before we started Zalando like me and my co-founder David, we actually um started like a a social media uh company in um in Latin America. So which was like you know student network for um uh in Mexico, Argentina and Chile. And this was like a startup that didn't really um work out. So and then we said okay well that that shouldn't be it. So we actually wanted to actually try it one more time. And uh we came back to Europe and thought okay well um in e-commerce with soft goods there's actually very great opportunity here in Europe. Um and uh we we looked into various categories and fashion and and and really found shoes quite quite interesting. Um and uh in June 2008 we started to sell flip-flops on a domain called fliptops.de uh and really worked out well. So it's we actually saw like you know consumers really liked it. Um they um uh it really picked up like to what like 20 flip flops a day. Um, and I think based on this insight, we got our investment into into for like a big idea selling shoes online um with Zalando and then we got started.

Nicolola Tangian: Uh, 20 flip flops a day. Were you you were packing them yourselves and sending them out or?

Robert Gentz: Yeah. Yeah, we um we we packed them ourselves. We um went to the post office and and really enjoyed every single customer um contact we had and every single um conversation and just um and as were asked like why did they actually go for for an online search for flip-flops and why didn't they go to stores and it was very very good insight. So that was um mid mid 2008 right before the Finnish crisis

Nicolola Tangian: but e-commerce were was quite new at that stage right?

Robert Gentz: Yeah, it was very new and I think that that as well was was for us a very good insight that whenever we yeah talk with people about um like about e-commerce and with with shoes uh we got a lot of um feedback from people I cannot really order shoes you have to try them on this is more bricks and mortar experience but then we actually saw like in internet like in in Google like how many people actually search for specific shoes in specific sizes and they made it very clear that there's a big market although it was on a market for like you know 90% of people but it was actually market uh for a few percent of people.

Nicolola Tangian: Zappos in the US had done something well I guess slightly similar. Was that was that an inspiration for you?

Robert Gentz: Um I mean it was like selling shoes online. Yeah. So I think uh it's it's it was not the most innovative idea. Um um though but I think it like what Zappos in the US uh proved is that in with shoes in e-commerce you can actually build up a big company and that helped that helped actually to to raise them uh some money in the in basically in June July 2008 where they got €100,000 um of investment and then the financial crisis hit and then um and then we said okay now we get we better get this uh get this uh get us going and survive and um that actually was I think in in retrospect fact um this was actually very um very good um thing for us because it really produces a lot of character that I think we still answer until today actually um nurture from

Nicolola Tangian: the fact that you got the crisis straight in your face you think was a good thing.

Robert Gentz: Yeah I mean I remember like with my co-founder that we um we were I mean we were debating um endlessly for example um for half a day if we should buy I remember like this book of uh the German retail with shoes. So which gave us a lot of kind of market data about the German um shoe retail um and it cost like €60 at the time and we really were debating do we really need to spend the €60. Today we have more than 60 million customers. We have like you know thousands of employees but we still tell these stories of frugality of like every single euro and every single um resource really counts and and and treat it as as if it's your own money. Do you really have to spend it? And I think this produced a lot of character that we still um benefit from today.

Nicolola Tangian: When did you realize that there was uh potential beyond the shoe category?

Robert Gentz: The skating of the London then actually happened extremely fast. So we we went from in 2009 we had probably like 5 million revenues, 6 million revenues. Uh then we went to 150 in the next year, then more than 500 million.

Nicolola Tangian: Wow.

Robert Gentz: Um and then more than 1.2 billion in the fourth year.

Nicolola Tangian: Wow. So we literally went from 50 people um in in 2009 to 2011 we were like more than two and a half thousand employees.

Robert Gentz: Uh so the the scaling actually went very fast because then we realized that we have this this flywheel going for us. Yeah. So where um um when we started off with shoes and then we understood you know the more you provide selection actually the better you could you could actually convert the traffic um so better you could create the experience for customers. Um so we really had to just I mean scale selection and then actually we were able to actually convert the traffic in a good way. Um and then we asked ourel is this actually not only shoes but as well fashion. Yeah. And can we actually crossell fashion what we then started to do. Um and then we asked ourel is this actually not only Germany is this actually European proposition. And then we went into first market and we realized of that we could actually bring the same selection that we had now in Germany like to to a smaller market that actually was very much appreciated. And then we actually scaled across Europe and that was a very very fast scaling in these in this uh in these first years.

Nicolola Tangian: Yeah. Much faster than we normally see in Europe, right? I mean yeah that kind of blit scaling sometimes you see it with the new technologies and uh and so on but very rare. So how do you what what decides the speed at the start of your launch? How do you get to these growth numbers?

Robert Gentz: I think when it's very clear of how your flywheel works. So I think um then I think it's very incredibly easy uh for um for leadership to actually align under under this this this framework of how you actually grow. Yeah. So for us

Nicolola Tangian: explain flywheel for the people who don't know it.

Robert Gentz: We started off with an Adidas shoe. So people actually in internet searched um Adidas um Zamba like a specific shoe size let's call like 46 like a a bigger shoe size than you usually should get actually in the in the store. So so they had very specific searches. Yeah. And I mean for to convert such a search in in a sale you just need to have the shoe. Yeah. But there's not that many people that search for this the shoe. So more people actually search for Adidas Zambar which is then the the model name and even more people then search for Adidas shoes or for the brand name Adidas. Yeah. But the brand name Adidas you cannot really convert um until you really have like a good selection of Adidas in in place. So and for us it actually meant we because we had to scale inventory. We actually started like very specifically to scale around true searches in the in the first uh in the in in in the in the first couple of of months. And uh we knew that um the more you build up selection the more you can actually convert the traffic. Yeah. And then you can actually go from from uh from within a brand to uh the entire brand then to more brands and then from then you have entire Germany. Then you can replicate the same for the next country. and all of a sudden you then have like a selection that I mean brings the same amount of selection no matter if you live here in the north of Norway um or if you live in the south of uh of Italy or if you live in the in close to the high street of Paris um and you have the same access to selection and I think that was very much I think the journey of the the flywheel of how we how we built up a selection and actually could could grow and grow and grow um in in this in this in this environment in a good way

Nicolola Tangian: but you are expanding in a lot of different uh dimensions at the same time. So you're expanding in categories, in brands and in geographies. How do you think about that expanding in so many different ways at the same time?

Robert Gentz: The way of how we think about it is we have people that we form a relationship with. This is our customers and we have more than 60 million more than 15% of the European population that has an active customer relationship with us. And um and we nurture these relationship with our customers. We try to you know we we invest a lot in terms of our experience to to to never disappoint to always uh deliver um in a way that actually exceeds expectations. Yeah. And then it's a question like how we can use these customer relationships to actually do more for them. Yeah. So and like we started off with shoes. Yeah. Went into um went into um to fashion um recently went as well into sports into into into beauty into families and kids. So into all aspects I think where we actually have a can actually play like a bigger role for our customers. So we build relationships and then we grow our role for them on a bigger way and today it's about€300 euro on average they spend with us and our ambition is is obviously to to grow the um the role in different categories that we play with.

Nicolola Tangian: How did you decide which countries to roll out?

Robert Gentz: Um we're only in Europe. Yeah. Um and um the big um the sort of big reason for only Europe is because Europe is actually so beautifully complex and we made Europe very easy um for brands to interact with due to our kind of logistical footprint. So where we can actually build like a big like logistical network throughout Europe that can serve customers as well in the north of Norway and so south of Sicily. So and within Europe we actually have the benefit of this network outside of Europe. So if you have a brand instead of building out all these facilities yourself, you basically just let you do it.

Nicolola Tangian: Yeah. This is I mean what we have um recently done now with our B2B service that we as well um enable brands um through our B2B service is to use our entire logistical network as well um for their own e-commerce and as well um outside of Zalando which is the B2B vector that we have recently launched like last year.

Nicolola Tangian: Tell me about this. So what what do you do for the clients?

Nicolola Tangian: So this is a whole you basically supply the whole ecosystem right for e-commerce.

Robert Gentz: Exactly. So we um we have a B2C company that that's that's kind of how we how we grew up with and recently we have as well launched the B2B um vector for us where we basically productize the logistical infrastructure and and services that we've built and as well um software um and regard actually the 7,000 brands that we offer as uh that we work with as customers of our of our infrastructure and they can use the same uh infrastructure that we built for ourselves. now to actually run the entire e-commerce on. Yeah. So that they um that that kind of has has all these um localization features throughout Europe. Um and that they can actually send um send product through like for their own e-commerce or as well connect to different marketplace and only run the entire inventory from one infrastructure which is a very very good use for for the brands because they don't have to um yeah they don't have to invest into own capex of of logistics and they get as well the benefits from the entire network that we have for ourselves.

Nicolola Tangian: So if I'm the client uh and I buy something directly from a company, you basically provide the whole backbone and do the delivery.

Robert Gentz: Exactly. So

Nicolola Tangian: and I still think I deal just with that company or do I know that you guys are involved?

Robert Gentz: Yeah. I mean a good example is Next that's actually committed there the European um the content to European fulfillment on so all the fulfillment for Next uh within Europe is actually done through our logistical footprint.

Nicolola Tangian: So Rob, you collect a lot of data, right? you know uh more about what's selling in Europe than any other firm, right? What do you how do you use all these data?

Robert Gentz: Yeah. So um I mean you're right with 60 million people that actually shop with us on a on a yearly base and many more obviously like you know visitors that we actually have that use our destination is um there's a lot of rates um data that we generate on behalf of consumers. For example, what we do here is that we use the data graphs from consumers and as well from merchandise to help consumers to actually bet find better sizes for themselves or find the sizes that they have a higher probability to fit them. Yeah. So I mean if you actually order something on Zalando and you order have like a history with Zalando um and you sometimes return items, you get feedback on items, some you don't return on items, then we see as well similar customers that have similar kind of history as as you have. Um, and when you look at another item that you have not yet bought, we can give you more accurately advices about how to um, which size to order because sometimes these brands run a bit smaller, some run a bit bigger, which we can actually build out of this knowledge graph on on sizes.

Nicolola Tangian: If I go on Zalando and I try to to buy a medium shirt, you're going to say, "No, you are you must be joking. You should have XL."

Robert Gentz: That can happen sometimes. Um but I mean sometimes as well these these these brands have different size profiles. So it can as well be sometimes that you say okay well I mean in this brand you might actually be an S here. So can happen right? But I mean these are like good good data points but then there's another kind of very interesting um data challenge which actually comes in logistics. How do you actually optimize um logistics in a in a right way? Where where in this like network of logistic centers if we run across Europe where like an item should be put in this in this network that has the highest probability in terms of speed but as well in terms of cost where it might actually be purchased where there's a lot of math and data that actually really helps to optimize this network. um as well on behalf of the entire industry because I mean we work with 7,000 brands. We run a very very big network and there's a lot of inefficiencies which can be calculated away um by producing right algorithms and the right data graphs.

Nicolola Tangian: One of the most important ways that AI is changing the way you run your business. Now

Robert Gentz: I mean it it has it has a few of components about how we actually interact with um with consumers. We for example recently launched like a discovery feed. So which is a great way of how can actually consumers can interact um with with fashion beyond actually the only buying but as well in terms of their their their discovery and their inspiration entertainment. So we surface from like a huge pool of content those items of content that a consumers might be the most interested in. Yeah. which gives them a great gateway towards um towards um towards finding out getting inspired or as we're having fun with uh with with fashion lifestyle. So that's a that's an interesting um new project that we have launched on the on our mission to inspiration entertainment with with consumers. Um a second kind of bigger uh initiative of ours is um is uh is an assistant that we have built uh which um actually enables consumers um to interact with us in natural language. Yeah. So we can actually ask us much more occasion based uh questions. So I don't know like I'm showing up here in Norway uh and what shall I wear today in in Norway which is something that e-commerce previously couldn't really answer. So but now uh with all these advances in large language models and as well in our own advancements we are able to cope with these questions and answer these questions in a good way. So that's

Nicolola Tangian: so so the model told you okay you're going to Norway it's such a depressing country you need to wear black.

Robert Gentz: Uh yeah could be

Nicolola Tangian: what about sizes? How how is technology going to help people choose the size?

Robert Gentian: the the size and fit is as well really like one of the most um interesting and um and complex questions in in in fashion. And here um AI um actually helps quite a lot to actually solve these uh solve these questions. So

Nicolola Tangian: can I take a picture of myself and get the size?

Robert Gentz: Yeah. So you Yeah, exactly. So you can you can take a picture of yourself at Zalando um where we um which actually 1 million customers already have done. So you take a picture of yourself with using the Zalando app and uh we render you the sizes from your from your body and this increases our probability to predict the right size for you. But it's two-sided problems. It's a consumer it's a body size but it's like the merchandise measurement size which is another question. I think in the future there will be as well experiences where um where you for a certain part of the of the of the assortment uh we would have like close to 100% of confidence that we can predict the right size for you where you might have the detail pages where where you don't have to select any any more size. We do the size selection actually for you and we're very confident and that whatever we will send you will actually fit you. So

Nicolola Tangian: that's the consumer side. Tell me about the the how you work with returns which is a very big cost in your industry.

Robert Gentz: Nobody really likes returns. Yeah. No, not the consumers don't like returns. Um we don't like returns. Um the environment doesn't like returns. So it's not a it's not a it's not it's nothing that anyone likes. So consumers don't really like to go to the postal office and just deliver like you know returns. Again it is something that we work on to help consumers to take better better choices. you know um so um and the big driver of returns is is obviously that an item actually doesn't arrive in the way of how the consumers imagine it to be. So be it like in terms of sizes how it fits but or be it in the way of how it was visually imagined when you actually ordered. Yeah. And um there's actually going a lot of investments from from uh from our side into helping consumers to take better choices here. So um on the size and fit we already discussed a little bit like what we do there um but um but even like on the product uh presentation so um there's actually innovation happening uh where this problem might be better solved in future. So for example, we're now able to render from two-dimensional pictures, actually threedimensional um experiences or like videos um that actually help consumers to really like in depth actually try to imagine this item um on the detail pages in a way that wasn't that wasn't possible before.

Nicolola Tangian: So if you add all these things together, what do you think are the the real key issues that you need to get right as an online retailer?

Robert Gentz: I think the one the one key theme is is is customer obsession. Yeah. So because I mean consumer expectations are constantly uh constantly rising and really staying close uh to to um to the consumer and really as well staying close to um the technology um that actually enables you to provide solutions that are were not possible before. I think that's one key theme and the second one is as well like have a very very good relationship with the brands and because we work with 7,000 brands um and um they as well drive their business uh and they have a lot of good ideas and understanding what they really need and how do you as a platform actually cater to them in the right way and how do you make it um as efficient for them as possible to drive their brand equity on Zalando. I think that's the two kind of most important um uh most important ingredients you have to get right.

Nicolola Tangian: Mhm. You are facing a couple of new ultra lowcost competitors, Temu and uh and Shein. How are they changing the landscape for you?

Robert Gentz: Yeah, I I mean you have these Chinese competitors now, but we're basically in a different game uh than those uh those companies. I think they are only about price. um like our promise actually to consumers is um or as a platform is much more in the around quality. So as a as a consumer you know that um that I mean the selection you get on Zalando is these are brands there's a certain quality filter that we actually apply to it and we invest a lot into experiences to make it better for for consumers like delivery um speed reliability uh brand presentation and as well like you know these innovations as size and fit and and and product presentation and so on. So that's that's a promise towards consumers. Um and uh the promise towards brands is as well on quality which is well very important is that um uh that they don't compete on Zalando with um supply chains that are um you know just after copying their styles at a like lower quality and cheaper price. um but um they actually have an ability to build up their brand on Zalando and tell their story on Zalando and sell their products in the way they want to want to sell them. So it's a very different kind of game that we play. Um but these these um Chinese platforms you you you see them in in segments of the market that are very very price uh sensitive like you know young fashion enterprise points you see them you see them as well in terms of advertising prices um because I mean they're sometimes very aggressive in advertising so that as well we we see that but I think overall like our Zalando game is is much bigger so it's as well like not only about fashion it's about about sports about beauty about family kids and many more kind of lifestyle propositions

Nicolola Tangian: that we we're um that we're active Just if you try to look forward let's say 3 months what are you seeing in terms of changing purchasing behaviors anything going on in society which you think is interesting just now

Robert Gentz: we have a very broad view across uh across Europe and I think sometimes you see like you know price consciousness I think a little bit more like in some elements of the market in Germany like Eastern Europe is actually performing um performing actually quite uh quite well but nothing really extraordinary

Nicolola Tangian: any particular color for the next season

Robert Gentz: what we recently developed which so has a very nice uptake is um consumer adoption is like a trend spotter where we actually mine the data of Zalando um and um and actually provide uh by cities we can look on the app you can actually sort by cities what are actually mover users and shakers in terms of trends by cities so and I'm not sure if Austria is well on there but I think Amsterdam um Berlin Paris is is is on list where we actually mine the data about um what kind of items um as well gets get searched more like what kind of color trends you actually uh you see more by city It's actually varies very much by city. It's it's not the same like in Berlin or in Paris or or in Oslo and very trends conscious consumers actually look at these transporter data quite quite a lot but that's where brands are very very interested in in the data and then we deploy to them towards um towards their own kind of production and knowledge.

Nicolola Tangian: How different is the taste in the various cities. So let's say you mentioned Amsterdam, Berlin, Paris. How different are they?

Robert Gentz: If you're interested, like you you can just look on the uh look on the look in the app and you signed like you can actually filter by different cities and you just see like just last week um what kind of items were trending in which in which city? And it's it to it looks totally different. Yeah.

Nicolola Tangian: Wow. And uh if you were to be a bit ahead of time, what would you buy just now? What color and what uh what kind of clothes?

Robert Gentz: I I think I'm pretty consistent. So it's not I have I have a turtleneck all the time, but I I'm very consistent. I'm very loyal to the to a couple of brands that I that that I have and in terms of colors it's it's mostly in the gray blue and and uh and white and dark space.

Nicolola Tangian: Let's move on to uh the climate impact and the environment impact. Just how do you how do us role in in the environmental impact?

Robert Gentz: The fashion industry has an impact on the on environment and I mean and as well and it actually has to has to do better. So, and um um and I see as well Zalando's role in that um is is kind of important because we interact with more than 60 million consumers and with uh 7,000 brands. So, it's it actually has a has a big impact um and uh we and and we should use actually our role as very very wisely to to drive impact for good. One open myth that I just want to clarify is um that sometime I think e-commerce has the view that is sedari was actually not um not better than bricks and mortar or like worse than bricks and motor which I which actually is not true because in bricks and motor you actually have like you have all these you know all these stores that they have like in the inner cities they have to have um they have to have lightning they have like you know heating uh they have these inner logistics uh towards the towards providing merchandise in these in these stores and all the consumers actually have to, you know, drive there, park their car, go in there. So, in an e-commerce, you don't really have all that. Yeah. So, you just have like the you have logistic centers that can and and are actually pretty efficient in terms of u in terms of their the run the the shipments where it has a lot of levers that you can pull to actually make this neutral. So, like for like actually e-commerce uh should actually have a much less impact than extra bricks and motor. Um but though I think like in in total we're very committed to to to being climate neutral in our own operations in private labs by 2040 um and as well um in in our larger scope by by 2050. And on top of that we as well try to find um good mechanisms uh of how we can actually help the industry to to do better. So for example what we do is um that we enable um kind of more sustainable flex. So when actually a brand invests into like a certain area of sustainability. So for example like different usage of material or different impacts um that we um that we actually create I mean these um these labels that actually consumers can filter on. Yeah. So and what we see is that this more sustainable filter labels. So when actually um when consumers shop by them that the return rate actually gets lower. So it is better for the consumer. better for the environment but it's as well better for the brand because return rates are always a big cost factor as well for brands

Nicolola Tangian: like again the flywheel of of good win-win wins where actually the brands can actually invest towards more sustainable and actually as well has a good impact on consumers and I think those kind of solutions that we can drive on this intersection between consumers and brands is something I'm very excited about because it is really win-win-win situations we can actually drive very uniquely at Zalando

Nicolola Tangian: let's talk about leadership so you run this from the first flip-flop to now you are like 15,000 people or thereabouts Um, how has your leadership style changed?

Robert Gentz: I mean, um, a lot. Yeah, I guess. When I started also, I was 24. Like I never really worked in another company, uh, outside of the the social media company that we started in Latin America. So, I never really had any work experience. So, I think literally in the first years it was about just being in the front row and just I mean doing the like playing on the field. Yeah. Just doing um doing stuff. But um over time obviously like you know we have grown a lot and I had to as well learn about how to actually scale myself and how to how to how to scale um the leadership. What I would describe now how I would lead is I I'm quite an enabling leader. So I I I trust by default the the the the teams or like the DS that work for me directly and I try to spend quite some time in just understanding and being curious about like what what's what's happening and then only really get involved in the areas where I feel that only I can do that. So it could be some very ambiguous decisions or like some more long-term decisions where you need a certain conviction and risk budget or or stubbornness as well. And I think on topics around culture, like corporate culture, like those those kind of elements where you just have to really get involved and and and take a stance uh as as as no one else can do.

Nicolola Tangian: Is there such a thing as a German leadership?

Robert Gentz: I mean, Zalando is um we have we employ people from 140 um different countries and we're very European company. So I I would um I although it's headquartered in Germany, but I would very much I think describe us as a European company.

Nicolola Tangian: I mean you're quite soft spoken. Are you are you uh an introvert?

Robert Gentz: Well, I mean I'm not sure if I would be an introvert. Yes, but but maybe yes.

Nicolola Tangian: And how do how does an introvert run a big company? What are the challenges?

Robert Gentz: I think actually Barack Obama is even like introvert. Yes. I I I mean like you know I do the stuff that I really care about and I think it's about role modeling about what's the right values for a company. So and I I I really deeply care about the company and I think that's very visible in everything that I do. But I don't really have to take on the stage uh all the time. So I'm as well kind of like you know very um very happy as well to you know to provide the stage to the to to people that actually deserve the stage like when they actually have accomplishments and I think that as well creates as well I think the right kind of team mentality at introverted extrovert I think there's there's always I think good

Nicolola Tangian: good mechanisms for good leadership.

Nicolola Tangian: Absolutely. I do suspect that you're more introvert than Barack Obama to be honest. But hey,

Robert Gentz: yeah, I don't know.

Nicolola Tangian: How do you communicate internally in the organization?

Robert Gentz: So, we have a lot of different formats that we do. Um so we have um I mean um we have like an own internet network where we do like you know post letters we have uh we run um rerun all hands uh very frequently and we test out as well a different kind of formats where people just ask us anything and we just react to um what what they have on their mind.

Nicolola Tangian: Now what are the what are the most important part of the Zalando culture that you that are non-negotiable for you that you really work hard to retain?

Robert Gentz: So when we uh when we started our like I really didn't really think that much about uh corporate culture because we I mean you just start to run and then I realized when we we grew that certain things happen in the company that you where you feel like you have not where you kind of don't agree with and you just ask yourself how did it actually happen? Yeah. Um and um when we realized that at like 2010, yeah, when we grew like from 50 to 200,000 people and we started codify these these principle and then make them really count within the within the company. Um so and these are like 14 uh leadership principles that um that that we then hire by that we promote by that we quote a lot internally that very kind of visible and these were like um leadership principles that we say like you know these are things that really matter when you actually work and and it should actually feel kind of like very very important and and people really can quote them and people are are using them that provide like an author of um of how we take decisions, how we um how we run actually together as a team. Uh one leadership principle that is important for us is so is for example play as a team um dare to fail as you need to nurture this willingness to take as well risk. Yeah. So otherwise I think you really create like a culture where it's it's very easy to just discuss a problem. Yeah. or why it actually should go wrong because there's always so many um good arguments why things actually should go wrong and then if nobody really is willing to stay positive and they take the risk then nothing will really happen if you actually create such a such a culture

Nicolola Tangian: then I think you basically create like a poker without blinds so where I mean only people actually go on when it's very very very clear if as a company you never really take on some calculated risk I think you're very clear to you know lose over time um and this is actually something that we that that's very important to us that uh that we really encourage people as well to um to to take a stance take a take a risk and then um and then uh don't be the I told you so person but uh when it actually doesn't go wrong but it really cheer them up when they actually take risk and and and and go after an opportunity. So that's for example one that I personally care quite a lot about.

Nicolola Tangian: You listed on the stock exchange quite quite early right just after six years. Was that the right thing to do?

Robert Gentz: It was very very early when we started around 200 yeah 8 end of end of 2008. So we had as well like a different kind of environment that we started in. So there was not a vibrant VC scene. So there was different kind of investors that we could talk to. So like one of the biggest supporters and as were shareholders of Zalando was actually Kinnevik and Kinnevik was like a public company. So and after some time because Zalando actually grew so big so big in in a short amount of time um we became actually a very big part of the net asset value. So their kind of earnings calls and chic is a public company. So the kind of their their earnings calls became their quarterly earnings call became like our earnings calls because we had to um just provide a lot of transparency towards the Kinnevik shareholders because it was such a big part of the assets. So um uh so we had like all these you know downsides of a public company without really having the upset of public company. So for us it was a very natural step then in 2014 to go public which was yeah I mean only only a couple of years after we um after we found a company. So we have so now I run for much longer time now a public company and a private company. you've been very vocal about kind of the European dream for entrepreneurship and um and are very concerned about that. Just what are your thoughts about Europe as a place to start businesses?

Robert Gentz: I think what I'm missing sometimes in the in the European debate is something like a positive north idea. Yeah. So because if you don't really have a positive north idea, you kind of get into a lot of detailed discussions and negative discussions. what really I think we we need here in Europe is first of all positive positive kind of idea. what what is actually what we want to do and and I felt like you know that creating that such a European dream is like a good and good and north idea because I feel the American dream which was like a big is like a big brand of the US I think it has suffered quite a bit in in in in recent recent which is a brand around like you know come to come to the US and uh and we we cheer you up and and build your build your dream and it's the it's the right kind of inclusive place and I feel um the American dream um has suffered because it it went from a very inclusive idea now to a much more exclusive idea. So not everyone is really welcome in US and I feel Europe really has has a big big chance to actually tap into this void and actually create like a European idea because it's a it's a free space. It's a it's a it's a very valuedriven democratic space we have in Europe. We have all the great talents and we have a lot of potential and we just need to I think formulate like a positive like north the idea and and make it as clear that we are I mean we're in a race we are in a race between China and US and it's it's about relevancy and we want to win this race and that's some of the positive ideas I think that we need here in Europe.

Nicolola Tangian: So do you think uh that what's happening in the US now is making it more difficult to be a startup there?

Robert Gentz: I think at least like when you are a student that's just graduates now from university. Um and you ask yourself okay where shall I actually start a start a business? I think um there's certain elements in in America that make it that probably make it make it a little bit easier but in Europe there is as well a good fundamental. So there's access to people there's that actually has a big uh senior market that should actually enable us to actually really say stay stay here and I think in terms of values that's one of the core question that I have for myself is what is the value space that you actually most most attached to because that's essentially you're choosing your home as well as for your company and as well for yourself that's for me like what the European dream actually can become. But I mean in order to make such a dream happen first of all I think what we need to um do here in Europe is to really realize that I think those those founders and this movers and shakers they really I mean they are your customers because they can choose where they want to start their business. How do we really make sure that we make it easy for them to actually start a business, scale a business here in Europe?

Nicolola Tangian: And uh how do we ensure that you know they have speed and can can generate scale and and really understand as well customers and apply like a lens of competitiveness towards all the environment that we actually suggest to them through our regulation. So I think

Robert Gentz: that's one and a second one is for me I mean one of the big arguments for Europe is the single market that we have. Yeah. Because it's it's actually a huge market. Yeah. So it's you know it needs to be as well understood as a single market. Yeah. So in terms of um the how merchandise and uh and people and that's why capital is uh is u is used in the single market. So it's like a lot of fragmentation that goes beyond the natural fragmentation that you have in Europe. I think it's just not very helpful.

Nicolola Tangian: What would you take to make um a single capital market?

Robert Gentz: I think you're probably a bit more an expert than than than I am, but I think just I think just too much competition between the different um the different um the different nations doesn't really help that much.

Nicolola Tangian: No, I think we got 35 stock markets in Europe.

Robert Gentz: Yeah,

Nicolola Tangian: that's quite a lot.

Robert Gentz: I think it's uh it's quite a lot. Yeah, but I mean it's it certainly is not so helpful. Understanding that we in this together and we we win this together, I think is is much more helpful. And I think the third element I would really mention is we talk a lot about um a level playing field but we need to be even go beyond that. We need to make it easier for um for European companies um that operate from Europe than actually outside of Europe. And I think at the moment we don't do we sometimes even go after our uh European companies first because they headquartered here in Europe and and and and don't um uh and make it easy actually for companies to operate outside of uh of Europe.

Nicolola Tangian: some personal reflections. When you look back at your at your journey at Zalando, what are you the most proud of?

Robert Gentz: 17 years now since I started this company. So, I'm very proud that we actually built something very meaningful uh for Europe with a with a great team that I'm very much enjoy to work with and I think when I when I think about the scale of u you know one 15% of the European population um and and have done this as a consumer company, it's it's something I'm very very proud of.

Nicolola Tangian: If you try to abstract what it is that makes a good founder, what is it who who are successful?

Robert Gentz: What for me is uh trade as well like active investors and and many funds trait that I always um look for is some element of curiosity um and uh some element as well of humility. So I because I that's what I realized over doing this for 17 years is curiosity is a very very important leadership trait for uh for me because I mean you can only really take good decisions when you listen. Yeah. And when you are interested and and you can and you can learn actually from from everyone. So from a newly newly joined person to every company, from a customer, from a partners, you can jo you can literally learn from everyone. And this is what important that you're curious in order to actually take good decisions. And the second element of humility is as well for me important because I mean you need to be respectful for what is in front of you um and not get ahead because I mean just because whatever you built until here doesn't always predict that you as well be successful in the next kind of um challenges that you have in front of you. Um and I think that's that's I think two kind of important um traits that I would always look for for founders when when I invest into their companies.

Nicolola Tangian: How much do you work?

Robert Gentz: I I don't really differentiate that much between like when I work and not work. I mean I think about um Zalando when I get up when I'm at work when I'm at home. When you found it's a very very special kind of relationship that you have to the company like a very deep care and I mean it doesn't doesn't really matter where you are and always think about it in a in a way. So it's it's it's very hard for me to say like what what like what's what's worked what's not work.

Nicolola Tangian: Do you think that's a prerequisite for being a a good co that you are totally absorbed in in the company?

Robert Gentz: I mean you have to balance you certainly have to manage your energy. I think that's that's important. Um, but when you really love what you do and when you're really passionate about what you do and when you care, um, I think it as well gives you a lot of energy and and obviously there's a lot of stuff that you do as a founder and CEO like that not always gives you energy, but there needs to be always a certain balance that you actually um I mean wake up every day I think with with a good with a good amount of energy.

Nicolola Tangian: Yeah. Where do you get your energy from? And and I know that you know specifically because you go one of these rings, right? So what is it that gives you uh where do you charge uh your batteries

Robert Gentz: in a work context whenever we discuss about I mean new invasion new products and imagining how this actually could be I think there's always for me like very exciting products and as well

Nicolola Tangian: can you see that from the graph when you talk about new products it's just like

Robert Gentz: um

Nicolola Tangian: you can see it

Robert Gentz: I probably would be able to see it yeah I probably would be able to see it but that's that's I mean something very exciting always like when when you have an idea when you have a plan and then then we execute on it and you see it coming to life and working out That's that's always the most rewarding experience um in entrepreneurial life.

Nicolola Tangian: Where do you relax?

Robert Gentz: Well, I relax when when reading. I relax listening to podcast. So, that's a typical way of how how would relax.

Nicolola Tangian: What do you read?

Robert Gentz: I mean, it's it really depends. Sometimes I even read some some uh some some uh some criminal stories. So, like the Scandinavian crim enjoy.

Nicolola Tangian: The Nordics. Noir.

Robert Gentz: The Nordics. Yeah.

Nicolola Tangian: I could have guessed actually. Uh now, last question. What um what's your advice to young people?

Robert Gentz: Stay in Europe. Make it make it work in Europe. I think that's that's I think that's one wish I would rather say for for young people when they actually start companies out.

Nicolola Tangian: Why should they stay in Europe?

Robert Gentz: For me, it's the part of the world that really uh deserves to actually gain in relevance again in terms of our value set and the way of what we represent. And I think it really depends as well with the value creation of companies in Europe. And it's all really on us to actually um have this value creation here from within Europe. And I think that's that's what I think a very big motivation of my or my my coco to prove that this is actually possible from Europe and put our energy to make it work here in Europe.

Nicolola Tangian: Well, that's a great piece of advice. You for sure have added more value in Europe than most people I've ever met. So, big thank you for doing that and for being on the podcast.

Robert Gentz: Thank you very much. Thank you.