Kyra Blackwell: I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garren: I'm Rosie Garren.

Kyra Blackwell: And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Rosie Garren: [music] Kyra, I'm so excited for today's episode because I get to listen to Wax Poetic uh about something you know a lot about, and that's mattresses. near and dear to my heart.

Kyra Blackwell: near and dear. And we're combining it with something near and dear to my heart, which is discounts.

Rosie Garren: Oh my god, I love a good discount.

Kyra Blackwell: [laughter] I mean, who doesn't, right? And I did used to work on the sleep team here at Wire Cutter, and I still get so many people in my Instagram inbox, in my email inbox asking me how to buy a mattress for

Rosie Garren: what mattress should I buy?

Kyra Blackwell: Oh my gosh,

Rosie Garren: I'm sure it was the first thing I asked you when we met.

Kyra Blackwell: Probably was, honestly. And it's such a big question and an even bigger purchase. And the hard part about that is like the sticker shock when you see these prices on these mattresses. People really want something good, but nobody wants to pay upwards of $2,000 for something. It's a lot of money. So that's why we're doing this episode. Now, Labor Day is right around the corner and it's a great time to get a good deal.

Rosie Garren: But there are also other holidays like Memorial Day, President's Day, and Black Friday, just to name a few, where you can kind of expect to get a little bit of a price cut. excited to have this conversation with uh Wire Cutters mattress expert Elise Chicowski. She tests mattresses for Wire Cutter. We're very eager to talk to her about some of the ways to make this process less painful and hopefully less expensive.

Kyra Blackwell: [music] With us now is Elise Jakowski. She's a senior staff writer on the sleep team and she's tried everything from beds and boxes to really high-end expensive inner springs. She not only writes about mattresses for adults, but she also does it for kids, too. So, she's covered everything from bassinets to crib mattresses to bunk beds. Elise, welcome to the show.

Elise Jakowski: Thank you so much for having me.

Rosie Garren: Elise, we're so happy to have you here. And personally, I really feel for you as a mattress writer because that used to be my job here at Wire Cutter. I was on the Sleepbeat for twoish years, and let me tell you, trying to investigate the mattress industry really was a task at times. And my experience was just that the industry was kind of set up to be intentionally confusing. Has your experience lined up with that?

Elise Jakowski: Yeah, it's definitely like a very opaque industry. And I think part of that is that it's literally a very opaque product. Like it's really hard to know what's inside a mattress. And so the companies, they end up using all this jargon to try to kind of convince themselves that they're selling you something special you're not going to get someplace else. And that's not really true. There's not a lot of magic to making a mattress. people are using the same kind of components, the same kind of techniques, mixing and matching to make products that are all pretty similar. And so that's why there's so many brands. It's really easy to get into the mattress game. Like we could right now just order the components and put together a mattress like the three of us and it would be fine. Like I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in is that there's just only so much to really say.

Rosie Garren: Why is it just so dreadful to have to buy one?

Elise Jakowski: Well, I mean, shopping for a mattress is so boring. Like, Kyrie, you know this better than anyone. Like, you tell people you lie on mattresses all day for a job and they think it sounds amazing.

Kyra Blackwell: So glamorous. Dream job. [laughter]

Elise Jakowski: So dull. Like, god, it's so boring. And so that I think is part of what stops people from doing it after they lie on one or two, they're like, I don't want to keep going. And then the other thing is you don't do it that much. Like if you buy a mattress every 10 years, the industry changes a lot. The last time you bought a mattress was 2016, totally different industry than it is now. And 2006, totally different industry.

Rosie Garren: When you say different industry, what are the things that change?

Elise Jakowski: Some of it is is that there are like sort of changes in the technology a little bit, but a lot of it is also just the way that people have bought things has changed so much in that last 20 years. And you've seen it with other products, but you haven't seen it with mattresses if you haven't been shopping. So like the rise of direct to consumer, the rise of online, a lot of mattress stores have gone out of business. And so that's a different feel. People want to negotiate less. I mean, we're going to get to that later, but there's just a sense that like the sort of used car salesman vibe of a mattress store doesn't really exist anymore. So if that's what you're used to, it's going to feel different.

Kyra Blackwell: And then there's so many more brands. There's so many brands you've never heard of and you don't really know where to start with. And then the brands that you do know, they will like change the mattress name to for marketing purposes. It'll be the same mattress but with a totally different name. And you don't realize that as the consumer.

Rosie Garren: I find the both of you very calm when talking and thinking about mattresses. And when I think about the last time I bought a mattress was like the stress of going in knowing I'm going to spend a lot of money, not entirely being able to tell the difference between, you know, lying on one versus another. What do you need to know about yourself before you're ready to make that purchase? Because I feel like the easiest way to make it a smooth process is going in knowing what it is you're looking for.

Elise Jakowski: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one thing to keep in mind is that there's so much talk about how important sleep is, and it is, but I feel like because it's such an expensive purchase, it feels like there's a lot of pressure to find like the perfect mattress, or else your life is going to be ruined. And that's probably not true. So, if you can go into mattress shopping being like, I know what I like. I know what I need. I know what I want to spend. And if I can find something that feels good, I'll probably be okay. Lower the stakes a little bit. It is not a make or break purchase. Probably take it seriously, but don't let it like ruin your life.

Rosie Garren: That's refreshing to [laughter] hear.

Elise Jakowski: I would say like the things you should think about and the things like the first questions you're going to get asked if you walk into a mattress store. What position do you sleep in? Do you sleep on your back, your stomach, your side? Do you move around a lot? It's the kind of thing that you probably don't think about that much, but as soon as somebody asks you, you probably have an answer. And so, you should think about that a little bit going in. Think about what are the issues you're having with your current mattress. Are you having pain? Do you have arthritis? Do you have back pain? Those kinds of things will help mattress sales people kind of find out what it is you need and what you're looking for. And then they'll probably also want to know who sleeps in your bed. Is it a couple? Are you sleeping by yourself? Do your kids join you? Do your pets join you? Those kind of things will help them understand like what are the most important elements for you and then obviously have a budget in mind. Try not to feel like you have to spend more than you're comfortable with because you can find a good mattress at pretty much any price.

Kyra Blackwell: Can we also talk a little bit about like softness versus firm? I feel like a lot of people have so many questions like no I think I want a really firm mattress for my back but I found as a mattress reviewer that was rarely true honestly. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Elise Jakowski: Yeah. Everybody I talk to in mattress stores says that people come in thinking they want a really firm mattress. That's just this idea that people have. And there are people that legitimately love really firm mattresses. And I'm not going to take them away from anybody. But probably most people don't really want a super firm mattress. Medium firm is kind of where we say people should start looking and then if they're a little hard, go softer. If they're a little soft, go harder. When we talk about soft and firm, there aren't super strong definitions of those words. And from talking to people in the mattress industry, one thing I found was I would say like how do you get to they'll have a number that says this is a seven out of 10. I'll be like how did you get to that number? They'll say we had a bunch of people lie on the mattress and tell us how firm they thought it was and then we kind of averaged it out. I mean it's very unscientific. There are numbers there are foam densities and but like at the end of the day it's really just a matter of personal preference. The sort of two components are the firmness of the base which will is often coils but can be foam and then the the amount on the top the comfort layer that that you sink into and you can again mix and match those pieces to create different styles but there's not really an objective firm to soft scale everything is a little bit more variable

Rosie Garren: right so you want to get to know yourself first and how you sleep and what you like before you immediately jump into like oh like I think I like firm mattresses essentially

Rosie Garren: I want to talk a little bit about accessibility. Like, are you able to even get to a store and try these mattresses or what do you do then versus somebody who can only shop online? What do you have to consider there?

Elise Jakowski: Especially since, as you're saying, these stores are disappearing. If you can shop in person, that's what we recommend doing whenever possible because you will know so much more about what you like from 5 seconds of lying on a mattress than in hours and hours of online research. There's just sort of no way around it. But you should think about all those things we talked about. So if you're a side sleeper, you probably want something that a company's going to call a little bit softer. If you're a stomach sleeper, probably going to want something a little firmer. And if you're a back sleeper, somewhere in the middle. Think about what kind of pain you're having. If your current mattress, you're waking up with lower back pain, you're going to need more support. So, you want that base to be firmer. Maybe look for something with coils if you're currently on foam. If you've got joint pain, if you've got arthritis, if your shoulders are hurting, look for something with a thicker comfort layer on the top. Probably some kind of foam.

Rosie Garren: Elise, what if you share a bed and you have different preferences? Is the only option that sort of thing with the remote that's two twin beds where [laughter] somebody sleeps in an L and somebody sleeps straight?

Elise Jakowski: It's not. Although it is an option actually. You can buy if you have a king-size bed or sometimes even a queen, you can buy like a split bed. So, it's not necessarily adjustable bases, but it is basically two twin-size beds that they've glued together and you can get them in slightly different preferences. So, if you have wildly different preferences and you're just never going to find something, that's a good option. But I also think that there are a lot of mattresses that are sort of in the middle that are broadly liked by a lot of people and that's something that you can do if that's going to be a much more affordable option. And the split kings can be pretty pricey and you can add a topper if one of you likes something softer. I think that you can kind of play with it a little bit as you go.

Kyra Blackwell: Can we talk a little bit more about things that people should absolutely look for spec-wise in a mattress? Because when you go on those websites, they list so many different features and a lot of them sound like marketing jargon. So when cutting through the noise, what's actually important when you're shopping for a mattress?

Elise Jakowski: I mean, a lot of mattress companies are going to throw a lot of information at you on their website. They're going to have these pictures that break down what all the layers are and how thick every layer is and what the coil counts and sometimes something like foam density is going to be there. This is a three pound memory foam. This is a 4B polyfoam. Sometimes it's going to be there, sometimes it's not. And you can look on Wire Cutter and see sort of our recommendations for what we think these minimums should be at different price points. But if you can't find that information, one, it might be a sign that it's just not that high quality a mattress. Even if it's expensive, even if it's on a fancy website, like that is not always an indicator that you're actually getting a great product. Think about how you sleep. Think about what you sleep on now and what you like about it and what you don't like about it and kind of work backwards. Again, if you can go, even if you there's one mattress store you can get to and you can try a bunch of things, you will really, really quickly figure out what you like and what feels good and then you can kind of work from there. Depending on who sleeps in your mattress, you might really want to think about something like motion isolation, which is going to make sure that if one person moves or a dog jumps into your bed, you're not going to necessarily feel it from the other side of the mattress. And that a lot of times foam is going to be better at that than coils, which traditionally transform motion.

Rosie Garren: We also look at stuff like edge support, which is literally just how much support there is on the edge of the mattress, which can be good both if maybe you have sort of two parents and two kids sleeping in a bed and you're using up every inch of it. You want to make sure that it's going to still provide that support right up to the edge. And also, if you're somebody who sits on the side of your mattress or the foot of your mattress to put on socks or whatever, um you want to make sure that it's not you're not just going to sink right through and kind of slide right off.

Rosie Garren: Is the height of a mattress important?

Elise Jakowski: It's a little bit important and a little bit marketing. So, I would say under 10 in is going to feel pretty austere. That's pretty basic.

Rosie Garren: That's a good word for it. [laughter]

Elise Jakowski: And then I would say 10 to 14 is going to feel pretty standard. And then 15 and up is going to be sort of luxury but also just a little bit goofy. Like some of them are getting into like we make a 22 inch mattress. It's like there's nobody that needs that. That's absurd.

Rosie Garren: I love the idea that you need a mini trampoline to get in bed at night. [laughter]

Kyra Blackwell: [music] So to recap, you definitely want to go to a store in person. and it'll really help you narrow down what you like, what you don't like, and clarify all the complicated things about these slabs of foam. Another really good piece of advice for you at least is to notice how you sleep, what you like, and whoever shares your bed, what they like too, so you can kind of compromise and meet in the middle and have an idea of the specifications of the product that you want. Do you know that you like a really tall mattress that is super dense and sinky versus maybe a thinner mattress that's more, in your word, austere and less frail. So, definitely just go in store and shop. Yeah.

Rosie Garren: Okay. We're going to take a quick break and on the other side, Kyra and I are going to talk to Elise about the best times to get a deal on a mattress, plus some other methods you might not know about trying to bring that price down on the big purchase. We'll be right back. [music]

Rosie Garren: [music] Welcome back. Our guest today is Elise Jakowski who writes about mattresses for Wire Cutter. We are talking about how to buy one, when to buy one, and right now we're going to get into pricing, and how to find a deal. So, at least one silver lining in the whole mattress buying ordeal is that there's a good chance you won't have to pay full price. I was gobsmacked. [laughter] So, Labor Day is coming up. We know that's a good time to get deals on lots of different things. What are some other times of the year when you can find good deals on mattresses?

Elise Jakowski: Yeah, you should definitely never pay full price for a mattress. And I want to say that a lot of times you'll go on a website or you'll go into a mattress store and it'll seem like something's on sale. There's always these perma sales. You're not really getting a deal. That's just kind of the default price. Then the real sales come in around these holidays. So, not every store does every one of these, but New Year's Day, Martin Luther King Day, President's Day, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, and Black Friday.

Rosie Garren: It's a lot of days. It's a lot of days. It's a lot of sales. So,

Kyra Blackwell: I just love the idea that Dr. Martin Luther King is like, you know, out there somewhere and he's like, "My dream was that people would get really good pricing on mattresses right around my birthday." [laughter]

Rosie Garren: Yeah. To that point, why are mattresses going on sale on these holidays?

Elise Jakowski: People have a day off of work and maybe it's this is the thing we've been putting off doing and now we will take some time to go shop mattresses. I don't really know the origins of it. That's a good question.

Rosie Garren: So, what if you miss any of these major holidays and you just can't wait? Are you just out of luck or what are there some other methods that you would recommend to get a price cut on the mattress that you want? So,

Elise Jakowski: definitely there are you still have the chance of getting a good sale? Some of the people I talked to said that they would sometimes help customers if a customer came in and said, "Can you do any better on this price?" They might say in 3 weeks it's going to be President's Day and the price will be this and either I can take your order now and I won't run it until then so you'll get that deal or maybe I can even match it now because I know what it's going to be. One of the things about a mattress store that sells from multiple brands is that they're not the ones really setting the price. It's coming from the manufacturer. So you can kind of be on their team and you can kind of work with them to be like, "How can we together get me a better deal on a mattress?"

Kyra Blackwell: And then the other thing is a lot of

Elise Jakowski: stores will have like retroactive price matches. So if you're like, "I need a mattress today. I'm going to bring it home." And then in 3 weeks there's a sale and that same mattress is $200 cheaper, you might be able to go to the store and say, "Hey, can I get that $200 difference back?"

Rosie Garren: Oh wow.

Elise Jakowski: So different stores have different policies. Sometimes it's only a competitor they'll match. Sometimes it's only their own, sometimes it's both. So, you kind of have to like know what you're getting into before you go in. Do some research on the price matches that the stores offer, and then you might you might get lucky.

Rosie Garren: It's interesting the point you made about some of these stores selling multiple brands. Does that make it easier for someone to negotiate?

Elise Jakowski: It definitely does make it easier to negotiate, partly because those stores are much more likely to be working on commission. So those people are a little bit more motivated to make a sale in a single brand store. If you walk into like a Sauta store or a Casper store, I don't think that they're always working on commission. So they don't maybe don't have as much flexibility. And like I said, I think that the people that are working at a store that has multiple brands, they don't have that same brand loyalty. So like they are really sort of more willing to make it work for you. So

Rosie Garren: outside of a holiday sale, if you are going into a mattress firm or a Casper or a Sappa, can you negotiate in person with someone?

Elise Jakowski: Yeah. I mean, I talk to somebody who had been in the industry for decades and he was like, when anyone asks me about buying a mattress, I say, "Go during a sale and then ask for another 10% off." And a lot of times you'll just get it. You know, you're there, you're ready to buy something and they really want to sell you it and so they'll just give you more money off. And then if you're really budget conscious and you're really trying to just get a deal, a deal, a deal, and you're not super specific about what you're buying, a lot of stores will be trying to move old inventory off floor models or something that came that was like a little bit damaged, so they can't sell at full price. And if you say like, I like these mattresses. Do you have anything that you're looking to offload? Then you can get really good deals. But it does take being a little bit patient, a little luck, and not super particular.

Rosie Garren: And what if you're only buying online again? Is there anything that you can do there?

Elise Jakowski: So the every mattress company pretty much at this point has some sort of chatbot on their website and that is the place to talk to somebody and negotiate. So I when I was writing this piece about negotiating, I went on 10 different mattress websites and just started little conversations and said, "Hey, I'm interested in this mattress. Can you offer me a better deal?" And I got lucky a couple of times. Casper gave me 20% off.

Rosie Garren: 20? That's wild.

Elise Jakowski: It was that was shocking. And that was the first one I did. So, I was like, "This is going to be a piece of cake." And then I never got any other great deals like that. But a lot of companies would say, "Yeah, I'll give you 50 bucks off, $75 off if you click on this link or you use this code, you know, for a couple minutes of work if you're saving 3 or 4% on a mattress. It's always worth asking."

Kyra Blackwell: I like that. Any other methods?

Elise Jakowski: So, the other thing I tried was sort of the digital walk away where you put something in your cart and then like leave and hope that they email you. And it actually really didn't work for mattresses very well. Part of it is because it's not an impulse purchase and also because of the way that there's these perma sales on websites and the prices are always sort of fluctuating. Like there were a couple times where I would see a mattress price quoted, put it in my cart, walk away, and then get set a coupon code that when I clicked it was more than it was the first time because the prices are just always fluctuating so much. So I would say that's probably not really worth the time and the effort to do. I would just get friendly with an AI chatbot.

Rosie Garren: [laughter] Elise, thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really helpful.

Elise Jakowski: Thanks so much.

Rosie Garren: [music] If you want to learn more about any of Alisa's reporting, please go to nytimes.com/wirecutter. She's got a lot of great advice on there, especially her article about how to get a good [music] deal on a mattress online. And we will also drop a link in the show notes. That's it for us. Until next week. Bye.

Rosie Garren: [music] The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garin and [music] produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's [music] episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Betup, Katherine Anderson, Rowan Numisto, and [music] Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fman is Wire Cutters editorin chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garren: [music] And I'm Rosie Garren. Thanks for listening. [music]