Host: Great to have you both on the program. How are you doing?

Guest 1: Thank you.

Guest 2: Thank you, thank you for having us.

Host: All right, Leo, I'm going to start with you. You have family in Cuba. We understand there are blackouts. Power outages. Are you able to reach them? Have you been in touch?

Julio Fonseca: Yes, I am actually in touch with them every day at different hours. Sometimes I try to call them in the morning, but their phones are not recharged because they have had had blackout. But then in the afternoon I certainly talk to them and they are health wise. They are fine, but they're going like all other Cubans through this rolling blackouts, shortages and difficulties that they are facing on an everyday basis. Basically problems that are induced because of the aggressive policy of the United States, which for Cuba is not new. It is it's been like this for 67 years. So Cubans are used to shortages and to resist. But it is inconceivable that the world is silent or in front of this genocide, silent genocide of the United States, which has promised to submit the whole population into submission. Totally unfair and really sad for the Cubans.

Host: Going to get you in here. Over the weekend, Trump said that Cuba is in its last moments of life. Now. Miguel Diaz-Canel is the president of Cuba. Help us understand what kind of support does he have among Cubans there?

Tom Sajjan: I think that the government in Cuba is still quite popular, which is why the United States has resorted to this tactic of trying to force the entire population into submission so that the people revolt against the government. Part of the reason that US regime change in Cuba hasn't worked for decades is precisely because the Cuban people are educated, they're conscious of who is, you know, causing a lot of problems in their country. And when Donald Trump's make calls like that, the Cuban people Recognize that it's an infringement on their sovereignty, similar to what we're seeing happening in Venezuela and also in Iran.

Julio Fonseca: Julio, I'll get your take on that as well. What's that support look like?

Julio Fonseca: Well, obviously, if the whole population doesn't want a government they will do away with it. And this is not the case of Cuba. The Cubans speak critically about the the government and errors that the government has made in the past, but they are very well aware of who is the culprit here. And again, it's nothing new. The United States has been doing this for years, for decades. And they always claim that the Cuban people is against the government and there should be a force of good to come and liberate them. Cuba was liberated in 1959. Cubans do not need anything else. The only thing that Cubans need is the lifting of this blockade and the sanctions against our families. That is the only thing Cuba needs right now. And the government is facing a very difficult moment, probably like never before in our history. And they are trying to do the best they can to satisfy the needs of the population. But obviously because of this problems that they are facing right now, in many cases it's not possible. But the Cubans are aware, Cubans are aware and they are really fed up with the sanctions and the blockade and the attempt of the United States to determine to decide their future. And they want us to to do away with our principle of self-determination. Well, it will never happen.

Host: All right. I want to get in here. I want to talk about influence. We talk about the United States, but I actually want to talk about China. Ten Caribbean nations are part of China's Belt and Road Initiative, and trade between Caribbean nations. And China is rising. How much does China's growing influence in the region have to do with what we're seeing with the US right now in their actions?

Tom Sajjan: Yeah. So the US is very concerned about China's development. It wants to place a cap on China's development. I think that when it comes to the Caribbean region, however, the sort of US tactics to basically stop states from engaging in trade with China comes off as nefarious. Since the US is not invested in development projects in the Caribbean the same way that China has. And also, even though China has this Belt and Road initiative that some states have signed on to, China is still a very small trading partner to most Caribbean states. What I mean by this is most Caribbean states only have 2% or less of their trade with China actually registering in their GDP. Whereas for the United States, since a large Caribbean diaspora lives in the United States and Canada and in Europe, most Caribbean trading is with those countries. Since us in the diaspora, we love the niche sort of Caribbean products. And so what's really happening is that the US doesn't want China to make any headway in terms of global influence at all, and in the Caribbean it comes off as irrational, since the Caribbean is not a stronghold of China's influence. I think what we need, though, is for the Caribbean countries to be less dependent on the United States, precisely because the United States has shown it doesn't care about self-determination or sovereignty. It is not above bombing these countries, bombing fishermen in the ocean, and not receiving any sort of international outrage. And so people are asking these questions, but states are still scared, since the United States is a major power that is using military force against them.

Host: All right. With that being said, Julio, US Secretary of State Marco Rubio is reported to be negotiating with Raul Guillermo Rodriguez Castro, who is the grandson of Fidel Castro's brother. What can you tell us about the younger Raul and the kind of support he has in Cuba?

Julio Fonseca: Well, I don't know very well this younger Raul. I've seen him a couple of times. He's part of the personal security, of the personal security detail of his grandfather. I don't know, Cuba has repeatedly said and denied that there are any conversations going on. So I am not part of the government. I don't know that. But Cuba has said no. So they claim that they are in touch and with this person, I don't know. I have no idea. We will have to ask the Cuban government.

Host: I want to get your take on that. Do we know much about the younger Raul, 41 years old, not the 94 year old, obviously the grandfather who many you know is retired but still has a lot of say in the country.

Tom Sajjan: So I would say that I highly doubt this is the sort of us narratives in terms of them talking to people for support. And the reason why I highly doubt that is they also claim to have support to sort of spark a revolution in Iran, and that has not happened. The US is frequently overstating the amount of times that it's been in contact with people in these countries that they have carried out interventions. And and so I don't want to sort of speculate on sort of US claims of talking to someone in the government or not talking to someone in the government, because more often than not, it's borne out to not be true. And so I wouldn't want to claim someone is in talks with the United States and then it's just not true. But I highly doubt that that would be the case, especially if he is a part of the security detail of his grandfather. Still.

Host: All right. I want to follow up with you. You talk about what's called progressive development in the Caribbean region. And I want to better understanding what's the connection between Cuban sovereignty and what we call what you call progressive development.

Tom Sajjan: Yes. And so one of the biggest aspects of progressive development is how responsive it is to local needs. A lot of Caribbean countries focussed on development that, you know, creates industries, but those industries are largely extractive and they repatriate a lot of their profits outside of the Caribbean so that locals do not benefit. And so when we look at something like the tourism industry. Tourism is technically regarded as an industry that is extractive and that takes away from local communities instead of giving back to them. However, even though that is the trend throughout most Caribbean countries that engage in tourism, it's not the case in Cuba. So when you engage in tourism in Cuba, you're staying at a hotel and you're engaged in services that pay back to the government, and the government is then able to use those tourism funds to publicly distribute it to public functions and services in the country, like trash, like public transportation and all of those things. And Cuba has the best public transportation system in the Caribbean region because of that, that locals need and depend and rely on. And so when I talk about progressive development, I'm talking about the impact that developments in the country have to meet the needs of the local population versus enriching people who don't live in the country, which is how tourism and other Caribbean countries are done.

Julio Fonseca: Julio, help us understand how is Cuba viewed by its Caribbean and Latin American neighbours?

Julio Fonseca: Well, since the triumph of the Revolution, the government of Cuba has viewed the Caribbean as their brothers and sisters. Even Cuba, with the very little it has, has shared everything with the Caribbean community. Cuba has sent help with doctors and nurses. Cuba has sent technicians, teachers, etc. to every one of these countries. Cuba has been very, very open to solidarity and to help the Caribbean because we see the Caribbean as our own family, as we are family, that regardless of the linguistic differences and cultural differences, we are one family. And that is the view from Cuba towards the Caribbean.

Tamisha: Tamisha I'll get your take on that as well.

Tamisha: Yes, I agree with that. So my family is from Guyana and they live in the interior of the country, and for a long time, and still continuing to this day, there is not as much interior development in Guyana as there is on sort of the coastal areas. And so my family has benefited from having Cuban doctors who were willing to go into the interior to provide them with medical services. And this is the same throughout the Caribbean, especially in many rural areas where the government institutions just don't have the strength or the capacity to reach people. And so when Cuban medical missions are brigaded and said, like, oh, they're engaged in human trafficking or slavery, which is just false, what ends up happening is that the most vulnerable Caribbean people end up suffering. And I think that we have a lot of governments falsely toeing the line of the United States to say that Cuban medical missions are human trafficking or slavery, because many of these governments don't care about further vulnerable or marginalising already vulnerable populations within their countries.

Host: I want to talk about sort of what's sort of the allies can do in that region. We have the Caribbean Community, also known as Caricom. It's a bloc of 15 states that promotes cooperation in the region. Cuba is not a member but does have economic agreements with Caricom. What kind of support are its members giving to Cuba right now?

Tamisha: So Caricom has always been comprised of the smaller Caribbean countries, and it was formed as an Organization where they could collaborate and cooperate on foreign and economic policies so that they weren't competing against each other and being further fragmented, even though Cuba is not a member. In 1972, when Caricom was formed, Caricom actually took an oppositional stance to the United States that wanted the Caribbean countries to isolate Cuba and said, no, we will not isolate our brothers and sisters in Cuba today, we see the same sort of the US trying to fragment Caricom, namely through what was initially Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana, but less so Jamaica since Jamaica called for diplomacy with Cuba. So now you see the US even further fragmenting the community by entering a new security arrangement with Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago, Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago. The prime ministers there in Guyana, Irfaan Ali, the president, and Trinidad and Tobago, Kamla Persad-bissessar, the Prime Minister. They've taken very hostile and aggressive stances towards Cuba, actually supporting us calls for regime change and frustratingly, the other countries that are a part of the Caribbean Community, Caricom, have been quite silent on this, and there is a fear that if any one of them speaks up or brands itself as a hero, they will face sanction from the US, which was directly threatened by Jamaica simply calling for diplomacy with Cuba instead of regime change, or going in and trying to bomb and kill people. And so right now, the Caribbean has been frustratingly quiet. However, civil society organisations and new groups are forming, calling on their states to be anti-imperialist, and so we can only hope that it is the pressure that comes from the people that actually changes these governments policies, so that they do speak up in defence of the Cuban people that have shown them solidarity for over 60 years.

Tamisha: Tamisha Julio, we are actually going to leave it there. I really appreciate your insights on this and your passion, Julio. I wish your family well, of course, who are in Cuba. Thank you so much for your time.

Julio Fonseca: Thank you for having me.