Interviewer: Are you trying any new therapies right now?

Bryan Johnson: One fun therapy we're planning right now is spicy foods.

Interviewer: If you have to choose three of the most important biomarkers that matters the most to you, what would they be and what do you recommend to actually improve them?

Bryan Johnson: Probably inflammation, blood pressure, and cholesterol. For inflammation, it'd be HSC CRP. And that's just a general systematic inflammation of where is your body, how are you doing? There's more granular levels, but that gives you a nice system level of is your body inflamed and or and unhappy or is your body happy. Cholesterol, I mean depends on how you could do a very rich profile looking at particle size. So you can do basic things like cholesterol and LDL. You could also do a much more robust looking at LPA and like the particle size APOB. So it depends on how robust of the panel, but I mean obviously the more markers the better. So blood pressure, systolic diastolic and then central blood pressure, then apex. So like the five markers for central blood pressure. Blood pressure I've been doing it daily because we've been doing sauna and that therapy has a lot of changes for vascular function. So you're looking at how the blood vessels are responding to the heat as of expanding on the inflammation maybe once every few weeks.

Interviewer: And what can people do to improve these three most important biomarkers?

Bryan Johnson: So the easiest thing to do is to get rid of the bad things in your life. So the things like smoking, drinking, fast food, junk food, not sleeping well, fried foods, those are the ones that are the immediate obvious ones. And then once you bypass that, it gets into more nuanced, for example, air quality, toxins in food, stress can do that. So there's easy wins, which are we all know about than the more granular ones, which take a little bit of investigative work.

Interviewer: So you have also described some of your more experimental therapies as punching through the ceiling. So I wonder what do you mean by that and how do you choose what are the therapies that you are going to try and experiment? For example, we just completed with sauna. And so if you ask most people in the health world about sauna, they may cite that it's good for vascular function, like endothelial function, like your blood vessels are expanding, you're pumping blood, you're releasing heat shock proteins, which are these proteins that roll around and they they pick up garbage and you're like misfold of proteins. But what we did is we...

Bryan Johnson: I think we did the most measured sauna experiment in history. And so we looked not just at vascular function but we looked at for example microplastics and and not just in my blood but also in my ejaculate which is the there was a Chinese study that showed that of a 100% of the samples taken from men 100% of the people had microplastics in both their testicles and their ejaculate.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: Now that's not good because it has negative effects for testosterone, for fertility, all these follow effects. And when the world is basically basically lost 50% of fertility over the past 50 years, it's good to get to a source of a problem. So in our sauna measurement, we were measuring does sauna change microplastic levels? And nobody in the world had ever done that before.

Bryan Johnson: And it showed that it lowered mine by 87%. We make these discoveries all the time because we combine therapies. We do measurement and so it leads us to insights that you just can't find anywhere in the scientific literature.

Interviewer: What's the rationale for sauna to help you eradicate or like reduce the micros plastic level?

Bryan Johnson: Yeah, we don't know.

Interviewer: Okay.

Bryan Johnson: So, this is Yeah. So, this is the thing is we we typically will go into an experiment and we start it and we say we're going to cast a really wide net. So in one of our recent experiments we did 249 biomarkers.

Bryan Johnson: So we just say we're going to measure everything the brain and the heart and the lungs the microbiome eyes like we just measure everything and then we just see what happens.

Bryan Johnson: And sometimes in doing that you find false positives. So you'll find an effect that it's not really an effect. You have to then do further experimentation. But the value of what we're doing is we're just trying to create intuitions like where should we point our attention? And then once we make this observation, now that we've shown that sauna was effective in reducing my microplastics, I'm sure others will do follow on experimentation.

Bryan Johnson: And probably do it more more robustly, which is the ideal scenario.

Interviewer: How many times have sauna or like how long of the sessions have you made you able to achieve that results?

Bryan Johnson: Less than 30 sessions. Yeah, we had also there was a substantial drop in environmental toxins.

Bryan Johnson: So we had there were like 15 toxins we measured and there was a substantial drop in those after 15 sessions and then more on the micro we did more sessions the microplastics and then we found other things for example like there are vascular improvements which were also good. We also found out that I did an experiment where men need to ice their growing area.

Bryan Johnson: If they don't that heat has a negative effect and it will knock out their fertility markers by about 50%. It's not just and a lot of men will say, "Well, I don't care because I'm not trying to have a baby." But the problem is it has negative feedback loops on testosterone, on hormones, and a bunch of other important processes. So, again, that's like something where people understand generally sauna is good, but they don't understand it needs to be done in a dry sauna with ice on the growing.

Bryan Johnson: And it's going to address environmental toxins and microplastics and vascular function. And so we just pulled all these variables in and now it's the most comprehensive understanding we've ever had of sauna.

Interviewer: So are you trying any new therapies right now and any plans for the next like 3 5 months?

Bryan Johnson: You know one fun therapy we're planning right now is spicy foods. So we found some evidence that spice has a number of positive health effects.

Bryan Johnson: And so we've we've tried to acquire certain a certain spicy molecules and we are now doing lab testing to find out which one we can take. So it's low in toxins and we'll probably start that in the next month or so.

Bryan Johnson: But surprisingly it has pretty interesting effects on on slowing down aging and reversing some aging damage.

Bryan Johnson: So we'll see. I mean this is the kinds of stuff we find are it always really surprises me. They sit in these little pockets that are unexpected. But like sauna maybe we can figure out what what kind of spice in what for in what concentrations or what duration. So that's that's a fun one.

Interviewer: I think a common understanding of taking spicy foods is probably it will increase your inflammation and make you have like little like pimples on your face. How do you take that? Why do you think spicy food does it like actually contribute to these issues?

Bryan Johnson: Well, so I guess it depends on what the source is.

Bryan Johnson: So there's there's many things that you can probably do for spice. So we just started this last week, so I'm not up to speed yet on the entirety of the protocol, but just knowing that that's coming up. Let me think of another one.

Bryan Johnson: We recently completed hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

Bryan Johnson: That's where you sit in that chamber. The air is concentrated very densely. It's like being underwater by 10 meters.

Bryan Johnson: And same thing with sauna. We did probably the most measured sauna protocol or hbot protocol in the world. We looked at there were benefits we saw in my brain, on my DNA, my microbiome, skin.

Bryan Johnson: It was just like a whole body reset, which was really surprising to see. It really is a systematic whole body treatment. So that was neat. The problem is that one's not very accessible.

Interviewer: You said yesterday that you're basically using 2039 as your goal to achieve don't die, right? Um, and I think a lot of people would think pursuing longevity and achieving don't die is a privilege. So, what do you think the general population can realistically take away from these endeavors?

Bryan Johnson: A lot of people think this is about me. They think I'm doing this for immortality. I'm really doing this for humanity because nobody can achieve good health without the help of humanity.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: So when somebody has high blood pressure, they're not the person that creates the drug. They take the drug somebody else made. And when you drink clean water, someone else built the water purification system to make the water clean.

Bryan Johnson: And so we all depend upon each other to build systems of health. Now, it's also true that if somebody pollutes the water, everybody is negatively affected.

Bryan Johnson: And so health is actually a shared resource. is something that all of humanity has to participate in. And so what I'm trying to do is I'm I'm trying to change our culture to say, "Hey everybody, we we haven't been as mindful as we could be about our health and wellness.

Interviewer: Right?

Bryan Johnson: And that includes the toxins in our environment. It includes our culture of scrolling all the time. It includes culture of porn and bedding and junk foods and all these bad habits we have. It's not good for any one of us or not good for anybody. And so my goal of 2039 is to is to create a focused point of attention to say we have a new goal and in giving people that goal they I think they have motivation to say I want to also work towards that goal.

Bryan Johnson: It doesn't mean that they are going to do a bunch of exper expensive therapies. It does mean they will say I'm going to bed on time.

Bryan Johnson: And I'm not going to smoke and I'm not going to drink and I'm not going to eat the fried food. So, I think it's it's really giving people motivation and a specific thing they can focus on that motivates them to try try to work hard at it.

Interviewer: Now, I like to zoom out to the greater longevity field. And I think it really feels like we're in a paradigm shift. And by that, I'm saying it's not just the tech billionaires. It's not just like all those labs but rather global private equity like the ones in Silicon Valley and like even in the Middle East and also the healthcare investors, traditional healthcare investors like corporate ventures and also even policy makers. I think they're leaning they're really leaning into longevity and you were just on a panel at the Maha Summit with RFK Jr. and also the CEO of Neurolink. So I'm curious from your perspective what is driving this shift and what do you think looking ahead three to five years what kind of innovation or breakthrough would happen in the longevity field?

Bryan Johnson: So what I like that's happening is humans have a ravenous appetite to be healthy.

Bryan Johnson: To look great.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Bryan Johnson: And to feel great, right? But they find it very hard to look great and feel great because they feel temptations to do bad things to smoke and drink and not exercise and it's very hard to do those things.

Interviewer: Right.

Bryan Johnson: And so I think if you look at what happened recently with these GLP1s.

Bryan Johnson: That is I think the first categorically successful anti-aging drug.

Interviewer: Right. Okay. Anti-aging.

Bryan Johnson: It is.

Interviewer: Explain it.

Bryan Johnson: Because you people associate it with weight loss and appetite suppression. Those are those are true also. It has a lot of benefits for metabolic health, for lower inflammation. It's neuroprotective and there's more things coming out, right?

Bryan Johnson: So, I micro dose a GLP-1 now. I I micro micro dos appetite.

Interviewer: Wow. You don't seem to need it, right? Not from like controlling your appetite, your food.

Bryan Johnson: Exactly. So, I have no need for appetite control. I have no need to lose weight. My body fat and my muscle are top 99 percentile optimal for all men.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: So I do it for the longevity benefits, for lower blood glucose, lower inflammation, better metabolic health.

Bryan Johnson: And so this one I think is a these GLP1s are an example of how fast longevity is going to sweep the world. What I'm bullish on is there's a few technologies in the pipeline right now that could have real true anti-aging effects. not not like right now if I'm doing sauna it's good for me like definitely good for me on a whole bunch of areas but it's it's an incremental and I have to work at it a GLP1 you take a shot and you lose 30 40 lbs and like you just feel like a different person.

Bryan Johnson: And I think we're going to have our first longevity drugs or or therapies in the coming years.

Bryan Johnson: And when that happens the world is going to snap overnight and the humanity is going to shift its focus to say we want life like I want to be healthy. And so I think we really are on the cusp of a a change that is far bigger than anyone's anticipating because it's going to coincide with AI progress. AI is going to change society in ways we can't anticipate. So I think it really is it's a paradigm shift that is probably the biggest one happening right now and it's just starting to emerge.

Interviewer: And you think in the next three to five years maybe a new longevity drug could emerge like the ones like GLP1.

Bryan Johnson: Yeah. And even if it's not even if the drug is not generally available I think in the next couple years we will see AIEL discoveries whether it be in animals or whether it be in small trials that will show dramatic effects.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: And so even though it's not a mass market product, it will be very clear from the studies and the evidence that a new era of longevity is here.

Interviewer: Have you seen or have you observed any new promising molecules?

Bryan Johnson: The biggest ones happening right now are, you know, for example, the transcriptum factors, the OSK, the Yamanaka factors.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Bryan Johnson: So this is like the idea for most people. So if you have a man and a woman each 30 years of age and they create the man's sperm and the woman's egg come together, the 30-year-old sperm and a 30-year-old egg combine and then it becomes zero. It goes back to a baby, right? The embryo becomes day zero.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: And so in our biology, we already have the ability to go from 30 years of age to zero.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: And that happens every generation as we make new babies. And so that technology exists in our body to take old cells and make them young cells.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Bryan Johnson: And so the same things have been shown in the labs with the Yamanaka factors. You can take an adult cell and make it a pur potent stem cell. You take it back to an embryal stage.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Bryan Johnson: Now it's not there yet where there's still some offtarget effects. It can still become cancerous. So there's work that needs to be done to make sure it's robust.

Bryan Johnson: But that in the lab we're showing you can actually reverse age all the way back. And so that's promising because you can start with things like take a liver and take your liver back and you can do so with your your pancreas and you know other organs. It takes some effort to do a whole body. But yes, like the the technolog is there and it's being refined. It's being built and these the AI tools we have now are just making that process so much faster to figure out what transcription factors we use and what way and how we structure them.

Bryan Johnson: So, and then there was a study out of China recently where they took the protein FOX3.

Bryan Johnson: They did a crisper edit. They put it in a mess stem cell. They injected it in the vein and then it showed over 50% over 50% of tissues had an equivalent of 10 to 13 years age reversal in humans.

Bryan Johnson: So, that was one of the most robust demonstrations. So, that study needs to be replicated again. Like first studies, good proof of concept, but somebody needs to replicate it. That was extremely robust. One of the best experiments ever done. So, that would give people hope.

Interviewer: So I want to ask you about Blueprint. So you recently raised a round of financing from really a wide range of investors. What do you think these people saw in you and Blueprint and can you share any stories behind the investment?

Bryan Johnson: I mean there basically it was a round of friends.

Bryan Johnson: So they all have a keen interest in health and wellness.

Bryan Johnson: And we're always having conversations. They're asking me about this and that and I'm sharing what I've learning. So, it was just bringing people together that care a lot about longevity.

Bryan Johnson: Who really enjoy this as a sandbox to play in.

Interviewer: And what's your plan for Blueprint? What's your long-term vision for it?

Bryan Johnson: I'd like us to become the best health provider in the entire world. So, right now, if if somebody says you they want to be healthy or if somebody has a health issue.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: Trying to either solve your health problem or getting robust care is really hard.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Bryan Johnson: So, if you if you're rich, you can go to a high-end concierge and they typically want to sell you expensive stuff.

Interviewer: Mhm. Yes.

Bryan Johnson: And not all stuff works. So the the game is buy stuff.

Bryan Johnson: But they don't address the underlying problem of behavioral change of, you know, can you stop this bad habit? Can you adopt this good habit? And then on the general practitioner side, most doctors just don't know how to deal with health or they're good at some basic things, but they don't understand nutrition very well or they don't understand longevity therapies very well. And so, and then you go to a longevity doctor, they just don't typically have like the breadth and depth to address the person's all their needs of nutrition, exercise, prescriptions, all the above.

Bryan Johnson: So, we've done this with my protocol over the past 5 years. We basically have built the best health protocol in the entire world.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: And so if we can take what I've done what's my team has done with me and we can take that and we could package it up and give it to other people then we could compete for best in world. So now if someone says I'm in, I want to be healthy. We just say come on in. We'll take care of you. We'll tell you what to eat, you know, when to sleep, what prescriptions to take, how to measure it, how to focus on areas of concern, but we just take build out a comprehensive full stack solution where our motivation is not to sell them stuff.

Bryan Johnson: Our motivation is to get their body to be in pristine health. So that the person knows that our genuine intent is they're in spectacular health. So, if that's my goal is that people say it's easy, it's great, they've never felt better, they never look better, they've never slept better. Um, so I think we can I think we can do it. Uh, it requires us to stand up like eight or nine businesses at the same time.

Bryan Johnson: So, most companies will say, I'm just going to build, you know, this green juice or this supplement or this therapy or this service, right?

Bryan Johnson: And we have to do everything all at once. So, it's a very big lift. It's ambitious, but I think we can do it.

Interviewer: So, I wonder what could the business model look like? So it's going to be like an annual subscription service or like how do you how do you charge people for for that?

Bryan Johnson: Mhm. So one is we have we have nutrition packaged up so protein and extra virgin olive oil and your basic supplements. We have skinincare, hair care. So like all of your basic things you need on a monthly basis of just consumables. Then we have biomarkers which is get measured find out if you have any problem areas of concern. Then otherwise let's keep your biomarkers on a measurement routine so we can see if things are improving or what we need to focus on. Then we have prescriptions. So if you want to start micro dosing a GLP1 if you have a blood pressure medication if you're on a statin like whatever that may be. We have tellahalth. So you have a doctor who's engaged be like all right let's look at the data let's go over what you're doing now. Uh then protocols. So in the context of a community where a lot of people struggle to do things on their own but they're empowered to do things when others are doing them. So if you go to bed as well behavior and you feel more.

Bryan Johnson: Basically we're just taking someone's budget that they allocate towards life we're say instead of spending it on resources come over spend the same money with us.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: So it's we're hoping to do it in a economical way where people are just shifting where they're spending money on food today, send it to us, skincare, hair care, prescriptions, and we bring it all together in a way that helps them make sense of all the data and keeps them in a structured routine where they feel like they're at home, they're being watched over, they're being cared for, they're getting like the best evidence-based care.

Interviewer: And I think you once mentioned that all of doing these measurements they are the most expensive part of your longevity package. So in the services that that will be provided through Blueprint do you think the measurements the cost could come down or it's still going to be?

Bryan Johnson: Yeah. So with even with mine, the first couple years we spent a couple million dollars. Like for example, when we did our first whole body MRI, we we probably spent maybe $200 or $300,000. We did all the research on all the scientific papers. We built our own custom protocol. We had to find an MRI facility to to change all their settings, get it done. We had to do it three times. And so now the protocol we've built is just commonly out there. And you can get it for $1,000 or $2,000. So the price has dramatically dropped.

Interviewer: It's like 10 times decrease.

Bryan Johnson: Exactly. Right.

Bryan Johnson: Yeah. And like same same when we we started measuring microplastics you know in both blood and ejaculate it was the first time anybody in the world had done that.

Bryan Johnson: And to do that you have to have a lab that is non-plastic like most labs like most of the things are built in plastic and so you have to rebuild an entire lab without plastics. That's very expensive. But now you can bring it down dramatically. So we've taken all of our tests and and protocols and measurements and made them all very economical. So yeah, it's already dropped like dramatically.

Interviewer: I think in the Blueprint business scope, you also have like clinic here in China and I think there are probably like one of your first clinics in China. So I wonder like why do you choose China to be the first stop of your clinic business? Yeah. And yeah, any stories that you can share?

Bryan Johnson: If you basically just look at countries on on planet earth and you say what group of humans do we think would be most excited about the potential of health and longevity.

Bryan Johnson: You know China is right there at the very very top. China is youthful and energetic and hungry. You know the Chinese have a fantastic work ethic.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Bryan Johnson: You know, 996 is no joke, right?

Bryan Johnson: Like that that is a tough work ethic, right?

Bryan Johnson: And people are hungry for success. They want to climb the ladder. They want to be So.

Bryan Johnson: I think it's it's a really good match for the where China is at as a country that China is an ambitious country, right?

Bryan Johnson: And ambition coincides very well with longevity. So that match for us is just perfect where we are partner with China. We want to grow with China and just it's a really fresh place to be.

Interviewer: From a practice level, do you observe any differences between China and the US?

Bryan Johnson: Very similar. We can basically achieve the same quality, the same comprehensiveness in a single experience. And so yeah, I think China is China's probably the best market we could see this in in terms of replicating the model we've built in the US.

Bryan Johnson: It fits with the expertise here, the therapies available. the the you know the size of the cities and you could actually concentrate this and get people to come in. So it's a good it's a good match for us.

Interviewer: So I wonder like how has your team use AI to change the way that you do things?

Bryan Johnson: Yeah. I mean when when you're a doctor and you look at one marker like inflammation.

Bryan Johnson: Then it's easy for the doctor to say it's high or low and based upon that here's what I suggest you do.

Interviewer: Right?

Bryan Johnson: When you have, you know, 10,000 biomarkers, it's much harder for a doctor to say, "Here's what I think you should do and why."

Interviewer: Absolutely.

Bryan Johnson: And especially when some of those markers are not wellnown. They're up and coming if they're like proteomics or methylation markers or you're combining a whole bunch of data points from imaging plus biomarkers. And so what the AI has done for us is it helps us find the patterns in these big data sets that you otherwise can't have a human do.

Bryan Johnson: And so we've been able to be successful in finding these patterns like we've we've you know we talked about sauna and other things we've been able to stitch together evidence and new protocols and new insights and new measurement structures because we're we're seeing such a broad view and we can find these connections. So we're just getting warmed up. I mean these tools are brand new. We're getting our first wins. But I think it's very promising that we're no longer limited by the number of biomarkers that you can get and then make sense of it.

Interviewer: And then if we have to look ahead a little bit, what do you think AI could do in addition to what you just said?

Bryan Johnson: I mean, Google just showed the first AI based breakthrough. So, a lot of people said the LLMs are cool.

Bryan Johnson: But they're not doing breakthroughs.

Interviewer: Okay.

Bryan Johnson: And Google just did their first breakthrough. They they showed how to to how to turn a cold cancer into hot so you could have the body identify it, work on it. And so AI is now a discovery tool for longevity. And so not only is it useful for understanding very large data sets, it's now in the discovery mode helping us actually find new pathways for treating disease and also reversing age. And so I think that combination, this is why I think it's that the rise of longevity will be faster and more robust than anyone's anticipating.

Bryan Johnson: Because we saw this the the first go around with GLP1s. It's gonna happen again with longevity and AI is going to be the fuel source for it.

Oliver: Yeah, so great question. So the team used to be a lot bigger.

Oliver: And what we've found over time is that that doesn't necessarily make sense. It makes sense to actually have a smaller team that then brings in other individuals who are experts in specific areas. Uh so if we're focusing on hyperbaric let's talk to an expert in that but who's overseeing that also Mike Malin is been involved uh there's other physicians there's another physician in Ali who work who's out of Germany who's really heavy data scientist um we have other data scientists involved but Mike Malin myself um and Ali are the main physicians and then we're bringing in other people depending on what we're talking about so the team has shrunk down significantly.

Oliver: Because we've really tried out a lot of things in the longevity space and figured out what really works and now we can focus on bringing in individual tests as we need them while we're still uh focused on the main things that we know are the most effective.

Interviewer: So Brian said yesterday at the summit that he want to achieve don't die by 2039 as a doctor. Do you think that's actually achievable? And how can that be realized?

Oliver: Yeah, it's it's funny because if you would have said that to me certainly 5 years ago, maybe even 2 3 years ago, I probably would have said it's not possible.

Oliver: That has changed. Um there's some hurdles that are being overcome that are that I'm and how fast AI is going and how it's changing has really changed my opinion about that and it's it's made it more where we can see that we've been able to slow down Brian's rate of aging. There's a lot of cool technologies and stuff we've used, but a lot of it has really been the the basics, really honing in nutrition, really honing in sleep, um reducing risk around different disease processes. And that has slowed things at such a rate that if you can see, imagine in the future if we get that a little bit slower and we're able to bring in these other other technologies that actually then reverse that rate at which we're aging, it becomes a reality pretty quick.

Oliver: And so some of the technologies that have started to happen um are being able to reset cells into a a state of youth.

Oliver: So the cell reprogramming as Brian talked about.

Oliver: Yeah. So that's happened. But also one of the limiting factors has been cognitive decline.

Interviewer: Mhm.

Oliver: We can only right now do so much, but there's been some newer advances and studies that have shown that maybe we can do a lot more and and those things are using like nanotechnologies to repair the blood brain barrier.

Oliver: So the barrier that exists between your brain and your blood. Um and that breaks down over time and results in what downstream.

Oliver: Probably some cognitive decline. and how to do that was how to address that has always been an issue. But now we're seeing these breakthroughs happen in this space that really have made me kind of stand back and be like, oh, these problems that I didn't 5 years ago see as really for us as humanity be able to overcome now seem more than doable.

Interviewer: I'll push you a little bit on that. So I guess in order to achieve Don't die. You probably have to reduce your rate of aging from I think currently Brian is at 0.5, right?

Oliver: 548 I think was his best ever.

Interviewer: Yeah. And you have to reduce that to zero. Is that right?

Oliver: No. No, that's not what I'm saying. So I think we're going to be able to reduce it down to like maybe 04.

Oliver: Let's but let's say we keep it at 0.5.

Interviewer: M.

Oliver: And at this point what happens then is the technologies to reverse that 6 months of aging that happens every year become the point where they can reverse 6 months of aging every year and that's longevity escape velocity. So where you can reduce the rate at which you're aging but then whatever you are aging we can reverse in addition to all the things that you're doing on a daily basis to slow the rate of all your cells aging. Does that make sense? It's kind of a hard concept.

Interviewer: So these kind of reverse aging um I don't know like therapies approaches are those the ones like cell reprogramming approaches we're talking about. Do you think that's like the magic switch or there's like count like other switches?

Oliver: There's other things too. So I think one of the things is addressing immune dysfunction. So as you age you get cellular cells immune cells become dysfunctional and regenerating th your thymus. I think the reprogramming the epigenetic changes and reprogramming is probably going to be the biggest thing in in my opinion. There's going to be other things that I don't foresee and other people don't even foresee. But those couple of hurdles are already being jumped over and that makes it where I see in you know 10 14 15 years as possible.

Interviewer: So addressing the immune dysfunction is there any promising methods like therapies out there that that could achieve that?

Oliver: There's research right now around addressing TE-C cell dysfunction specifically. Um I none of that is is really um commercially available or available for individual people there. It's really mouse models and cell cell models. Um, which is another example is what we're able to do now and Brian's actually doing this now is to take cells from different organs and grow them and then test on those cells. So, one of the risk that I have seen is as humans are as we're going along this journey being able to test different how you respond to different treatments. Everybody's going to respond a little differently. there's risk with treatments and so you could have adverse effects from from these treatments that we're trying out on each individual, but if we can test that in a way, then that actually changes the the game a fair amount. So, we're not testing and guessing as much on treatments and we don't have risk of aging and things going haywire and wrong. We can actually grow out cells, test how you're going to respond, and then and then feel that it's safe. are we getting the appropriate response then let's try this in you as opposed to just kind of guessing or and with potential catastrophic events.

Interviewer: Yeah. So you're you're saying that um the approach has to be personal. It has to adapt to one's measurements. So then brings to a next question. So um um the Valicant calls Brian one man FDA famously calls him one man FDA. I wonder that implies that these uh the experimental approaches that he's taken um is based on data on his own body, right? Y and pro probably only applies to his situation, right? Given the personal differences. So, um how do you think people should take away from these approaches? Should people follow them with this uh n equals one data points? Uh how do you how do you integrate that?

Oliver: Yeah, there's there's certain things that are really and actually the majority of interventions that Brian does are actually really low risk. The ones that make the most difference are really low risk. Going to bed on time.

Oliver: Is pretty low risk and and it's been shown in multiple populations and and different in so many ways. It's been proven and reproven and those are the things that are really compressing Brian's rate of aging the most.

Interviewer: Right.

Oliver: Right. There's other things that like the statin, like the stem cell injections, not as big of outcomes, right? Though, but as far as the next level of how personalized we're going to get, that's that's going to happen. We need to get to the point where all these other technologies that Brian is trying, we can individualize them and we can also make the cost of them decrease to where it is more scalable to everyone. But in the meantime, how do we get everyone's rate of aging down so that when we are able to achieve longevity, escape velocity that we can then lower that cost for everyone and make it applicable to everyone? So what are those things?

Oliver: So that that really involves okay, how do we reduce rates of basically obliterate cardiovascular disease?

Oliver: How do we really get good at detecting cancer early? Not just from a mortality rate benefit, but from a functional benefit. If you catch cancer later, it's more chemotherapy you have, that's more radiation, more bigger surgical intervention.

Oliver: So, how do we lower those? Um, how do we improve people's metabolic health?

Oliver: How do we decrease people's systemic inflammation?

Interviewer: Mhm.

Oliver: How do we make sure that people aren't atrophing, that their bone density is good, that their muscle mass is good? Um, and how do we help people with mental health? Because it's related to all of those other disease processes that the most of those things are what Brian's talking about. It's it's the sleep, the nutrition, the exercise really compresses the the rate at which people a are aging. It's not just about the rate at which you're aging, though. It's about your functional capacity because living a long time or longevity is just living a long time.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Oliver: Right. But it's living a long time well doing the things that you want to do late into your life. And that means it the more functional you are, the longer you're going to live, right? And so how do we do that and make that attainable for everyone while Brian is planning on landing on the moon? Yeah.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Oliver: Right. And so once we can get him to the point where he's landing on the moon, then okay, let's look back as a society, as humanity, and say we've achieved this. Now, how do we make it go to everybody?

Interviewer: Yeah, let's talk about landing on the moon. So, how do you decide what next for Brian in terms of like reversing aging therapies?

Oliver: Yeah, that's hard. Um because there's a lot of things available and I think it is slowly um this is happening so fast.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Oliver: Um and there's people that are It's really interesting that cuz I have patients still that I specifically take care of outside of Brian.

Oliver: And we people are bringing me stuff constantly. It's sifting through all that of what where the evidence is good and where it's not so good. AI is actually really helpful for this like on what the next steps are. We can list out ideas and then have data scientists help us say like okay is the evidence for whatever v intervention. So, spicy foods, right? What's the evidence right now? Like, I can know some of that. I can't know all of it. Mike Min can't know all of it. We come up with list. We say, "Okay, this looks like a good intervention." People bring us stuff. I read stuff. Other doctors do.

Oliver: We get a list. We boil it down and say, "Okay, let's try this. Let's look at all the data around whatever intervention is." So, we'll use spicy food. Let's look at all the data that exists and then what are the markers we can check? Okay. What was what can we look at pre and post intervention and.

Oliver: Or are there other things that we're not thinking of? What are the other risks and and then do the experiment the greatest and of one experiment in human history and and then let's let's see what happens. Um and there's always potential downsides but like how do we mitigate those downsides to make it to what's very low risk.

Interviewer: Okay, great. Uh thank you so much for your time Dr. Seger. Uh it's great uh talking to you.

Oliver: Yeah, it's really nice talking to you. Thanks.