is revisiting some of our favorite

episodes this year, listening back and

hearing what's happened in the time

since they first ran.

Today, we return to our conversation

with Thomas Sip, the lawyer who quit his

job at a prestigious corporate law firm

after his bosses gave in to legally

dubious demands from President Trump.

And we hear how SIP views that moment.

Now, eight months later, it's Monday,

December 29th.

Thomas, welcome to the Daily.

Thanks for having me.

I'm getting the small sense that this is

a nerve-wracking experience for you even

before it started. I'm just seeing it on

your face.

Yeah, it definitely is.

I want to start by asking you to explain

Thomas how it is that you came to be a

lawyer in the first place and ended up

at this very prestigious firm where you

worked until just a few days ago

Scatteren Ararps. What's that story?

So going all the way to the start, I was

born in Japan to an American father and

a Japanese mother.

And my family moved to the United States

when I was 10. My parents separated

shortly after. And so, you know, I was

learning English in middle school and

also learning about what it means to be

an American. [clears throat] Suddenly

becoming this sort of racial minority

because I'm mixed race and coming to

understand the social fabric that's kind

of unique to the United States. Um,

especially compared to a relatively

homogeneous country like Japan,

right?

and you know growing up with my my

single mom who doesn't speak you know

fluent English and getting all those

sort of experiences I think started to

put me on the path that I'm on now.

Can you just explain that?

Yeah. I mean there were difficult days

for sure. you know, whether it's

not being able to make friends, being

made fun of for my accent and stuff like

that that really I think started to form

uh like that sense of injustice that I

think fuels me sometimes, right? But at

the same time, I moved to the United

States, you know, in 2008 and during the

election and there's all this

conversation in America about

hopefulness and about, you know, this

being a country where there's a place

for for anyone,

right? And so I was also absorbing that

as well.

Mhm.

In high school, I joined a debate team

to practice public speaking. And in

college, I was studying political

science at the University of Texas.

And I had this wonderful opportunity to

be a an intern at the United States

Senate.

Wow.

This was probably basically like a

decade after I moved to the United

States. And suddenly I'm walking through

the halls of Congress with my little,

you know, yellow Senate intern badge and

running into senators and congressmen

getting to sit in on important hearings.

And it was during that time that I

really decided I want to be a part of

this project here in the United States.

And when you say this project,

what do you mean?

It's, you know, a march towards justice,

the betterment of everyone. I think

there are these like core principles

that are unique to the United States in

many ways.

I'm getting from you a real sense of

idealism and a real pure admiration for

what the United States represents. Yeah,

I'm not blind to the errors in the past

and I I know that the United States has

not been and still is not a perfect

country, but I really still believe

that, you know, when the United States

is doing the right things, the whole

world is a better place because of it.

So, talk about how this all translates

into your decision to become a lawyer,

to enter this industry. Well, so a lot

of the people with the cool jobs in DC

tend to have law degrees. And so I

figured it was the, you know, the next

best step um afterward. And so I go to

law school straight out of college. All

the law firms, the big law firms, um

almost by definition pay the same scale

salary. So that the way that these law

firms distinguish themselves from each

other often times is in things like how

their proono program operates, how how

invested they are into diversity

initiatives.

And I chose Scatteren because it had the

prestige. And as a as a 22-year-old

trying to pay off a six-f figureure

debt, I was drawn toward a higher salary

among other things.

I'm just going to explain to people.

Yes. By Scatteren, you mean Scatteren

Arps?

Scatteren Arps. Yes.

Big big law firm has an office here. New

York has offices I think all over the

world. It's one of the firms that we

think of when we think of this concept

of big law law firms that do a huge

amount of work in corporate America.

Mhm. [clears throat] That's right. And

Scatteren really advertised two things.

It's proono program and its diversity

initiatives. With regard to the proono

programs, Scatteren had a rule basically

that said that you can count an

unlimited number of your proono hours

towards your billable hours requirement.

And it was a big deal that Scatteren

does that because not many other firms

do.

Scatteren had entered the president's

crosshairs? So on March 17th when the

EEOC, which stands for the Equal

Employment Opportunity Commission,

basically published this letter listing

20 law firms, including my own, saying

that these law firms are essentially

under investigation for their practices

um related to diversity.

Right. I believe the claim was that

these law firms may have practiced

discrimination through the application

of diversity, equity, and inclusion

practices.

Right. And these executive orders, I

think it's worth reminding listeners,

they can feel to the law firms that are

being hit with them like death sentences

because they explicitly prevent these

firms like Perkins Kuey from interacting

with the federal government. And so the

people [clears throat] work at these

firms fear that they may go out of

business.

Right. Yeah. And one of my friends from

the firm sends me an article that the

New York Times published basically

stating that Scatteren was in talks with

the administration to avert an executive

order. And this was after Paul Weiss,

which is essentially a pure firm, made a

deal including for $40 million proono

commitment to causes that the president

agrees with. And during that preceding

week, there had been, you know, pockets

of the law firm trying to organize some

sort of, you know, requests from a

response, nothing publicly, but at least

internally, seeking clarity and hoping

to provide at least some input into what

the attorneys who actually work there

feel about what's going on and how so

many of us believe that it's

unconstitutional,

the executive orders,

right? Like, this is not a difficult

legal question. There's no legal basis

for what the president's doing. It's

complete abuse of power. And so we want

our firm to stand up for that,

but we're feeling like things are moving

really fast and and we felt voiceless.

Mhm. So what what happens next?

So there's this email thread that got

around to parts of the firm. And so when

I see that,

I realize, you know, at that point

that's pretty likely that there's going

to be a deal

and that it's going to be one that the

attorneys don't like.

[music]

And you know, within hours, I think

we again find out from the news

that there [music] is this agreement

and then we hear from the firm. They

have done a deal.

Yeah. [music]

[music]

We'll be right [music] back.

I just want to summarize what is in this

deal that Scatteren reached with

President Trump. It promises to provide

$100 million in proono legal services

from Scatteren to causes that both

President Trump and the law firm both

support. It calls for hiring what are

known as Scatteren fellows. Those

fellows are at least some of them

supposed to be focused on Trump friendly

issues and some of them have to be

conservative

in their ideological outlook. And then

there's a part of the agreement that

vows that Scatteren will not engage in

quote unquote illegal DEI hiring

practices.

Broadly, this is the deal that every

major law firm that has come to an

agreement has reached with the

president. So what is your reaction to

this deal when you finally digest it?

Personally, I felt ashamed to work at

Scatteren and that's such a new

experience because because of how you

know prestigious the law firm is and

then suddenly in you know the blink of

an eye in just a few days even like my

whole view of the firm has been

completely tainted.

Can you explain what precisely is making

you feel the shame?

You know it's a mix of things. This is

giving the president a PR win after

[clears throat] being bullied. So, it

seems like I'm working at a firm that,

you know, isn't as high caliber as it

said it was,

right? But more importantly than that,

so many lawyers agree that what the

president is doing is wrong. This is a

threat to our constitutional fabric, to

our democracy, to our civil liberties.

You know, people should be able to be

represented by by their lawyers freely.

Judges should be able to make decisions

even if it goes against the president.

And to see Scatteren be complicit to aid

this attack,

I was so ashamed to work there.

So I start actually just writing down

notes and really my questions. Some of

them are practical like how is this

going to be enforced? What will it

actually look like? And I started

thinking about it and finding answers

and so the questions became statements

and I realized what I had written was a

draft of resignation letter. So that's

not necessarily what you set out to do.

No.

Can I ask you to to read from parts of

the letter?

Yeah, of course.

[clears throat]

Dear colleagues and friends,

I'm writing to let you know that I'm

leaving [music] this firm.

There was a time when my employment here

was so unlikely. For much of my early

childhood, I [music] was not a good

student. I struggled to focus in class

and take anything seriously. But even

then, there was one subject I loved.

History.

I thought it was so wonderful to learn

about all that came before me, [music]

about the triumphs and tragedies, about

the moments of individual bravery and

[music] collective complacency.

I would often imagine myself faced with

the same dilemmas.

What would I do if I was there? Would I

do the right thing?

It always felt like there was no way to

know.

I believe, as I know many of you do,

that what the current presidential

administration is doing is wrong. That

we are sliding into an autocracy where

those in power are above the rule of

law.

Scatteren's agreement with the Trump

administration sent our country deeper

down this descent. [music]

And then I finish,

Scatteren is on the wrong side of

history. [music]

I could no longer stay knowing that

someday I would have to explain why I

stayed. [music]

What did it feel like to hit send?

I mean, listen to your

breathing right now. It's like you're

reliving it.

Yeah. Um,

what was it like to send that email?

If you heard my breath, it felt like

that.

Uh maybe a hundred times more though

because I knew that, you know, that was

a pivotal moment in my life. Maybe maybe

just as pivotal as coming to the United

States in the first place. I knew that I

was closing some doors and,

you know, a place like Scatteren.

I'm grateful for that experience. I

think it's only possible in a country

like the United States. and I really

really believe in it.

I'm sure you're aware

that many people who have spoken out

against President Trump and his policies

have experienced at times ferocious

blowback.

Mhm.

It can be a lifealtering event. Is that

something you're worried about now?

Yeah. And I was finally able to talk to

my mother after, you know, resigning and

she's in back in Japan. Hm.

You know, with the rest of my family.

And I told her I quit. She's like, "Do

you have another job?" And I was like,

"No, mom, you don't understand. Like,

this is like in the news." And she sort

of didn't process it at first. And then

she started to cry. And she asked me to

come back to Japan. And I said, "No,

like I can't and I won't."

their jobs. They may feel the way you

feel and have two kids they have to put

through college.

They might not feel the way you feel.

I'm thinking about reporting my

colleagues did inside the upper echelons

of Paul Weiss when that law firm did a

deal with Trump. And it became clear

that the majority of the people who run

the firm, lots of them, felt that the

best thing to do was to make a deal to

protect the thousands of people who work

at these firms. And that at the end of

the day, what they're giving up is small

compared to that survival. And the

bosses at all these firms that end up

capitulating to Trump say some version

of, "We are the same law firm after we

did these deals as we were before." In

fact, in a companywide email, your

former boss says just that, quote, "This

agreement does not change who we are."

What do you make of that?

I just don't think that's true.

These law firms are agreeing to these

deals when they know that there's no

legal basis for any threat executive

order. And by capitulating, they're

aiding, you know, this existential

threat against the profession, the

independence of the judiciary and our

democracy and everyone who depends on

it.

It does change who the firm is.

Yes. In short,

yes,

you very clearly have a lot of faith in

the US, but at this point, how confident

are you given everything you've just

been through that the version of the

United States that seems to be at the

center of everything you've done here is

now the version of the United States?

confident because of what so many

people, strangers, you know, reaching

out to me have said to me, which is that

they're also scared. Everyone is scared.

But if everyone could, you know, stand

up and speak up about this, then we can

turn this back, I think we can save it

still.

But are you a little bit worried that

you're making the wrong bet?

Well, of course I'm, you know, worried.

I guess, you know, I'm putting my career

on the line for this and I I knew that

going into this. I have student loans. I

have a single mom who, you know,

Andrew just publicly picked a little bit

of a fight with the president.

That's right.

I wonder if this experience made you

question going into law.

No, I don't I don't regret becoming a

lawyer

and going to law school. It's a

wonderful education.

You know, even my time at Scatteren, I

learned so much and it's equipping me

with skills, I think, to advocate for

what I believe in and for for others as

well.

And that's what lawyers do.

Well, Thomas, thank you for for coming

[music] in here and for telling us the

story. We really appreciate it.

Thank you.

[music] since he quit his job.

[music]

Let's catch up. Okay. Formally.

Okay. You look well. You look rested.

The last time you saw me, I was running

on almost no sleep.

Well, catch me up on everything that's

happened to you. Last time we spoke, it

was just a few days after you quit your

job at Scatteren,

right?

Suddenly, you're not employed. You're

not getting any paychecks.

What happened next?

Uh, came on this podcast. [laughter]

I remember that part. and sounded like

people generally liked, you know, what I

said. And I got

so many heartfelt messages from people,

you know, feeling that sort of

hopefulness that I feel thinking about

these sort of democratic values, what it

means to be an American. Other people

reached out because they felt sort of

maybe a kinship, a sort of common

background, whatever it may be. There

were just some parents who were worried

about their kids and, you know,

listening with their kids and those are

some of the most touching ones. There

was one in particular that really struck

me. It was a

Can you describe it?

Yeah. It was a a father driving his kids

to school and they're listening to this

episode and he's asking kids his kids,

"What would you do

if you were in Thomas's position?"

Yeah. Exactly. And that's the sort of

thing that, when I was a kid, I would

think about in history class. And I

don't know, it was a really great

feeling and it gave me a real it's like

a win in my back.

And what ends up happening to your job

prospects? Do you end up finding a job?

Long story short, I do. I'm currently

working for a federal judge.

And what can you tell me about that

work, how you got it, and how it may or

may not fit into the way that your last

job ended.

Uh, I can't tell you a lot, but I can

tell you some things.

Okay. The judge actually found me

through his network and mine kind of

colliding. Uh I'm his the title is I'm a

law clerk and the job is essentially

analyzing the law, explaining it, making

recommendations to the judge. So you're

basically the judge's assistant. I know

when you clerk for a judge, this is my

sense, you may not be able to discuss a

lot of the intricacies of your work, but

it strikes me that if you're working for

a federal judge,

you're potentially interacting with

President Trump's agenda to some degree.

and federal judges are the figures in

our legal system right now who are seen

as really the most powerful and

important potential checks on this

president

and I'm sure that hasn't escaped you

either.

I'm to be honest I'm not going to talk

about you know active cases that may or

may not be before my judge. because

there's pretty serious ethics concerns

about, you know, clerks typically don't

talk to the media,

right?

And

I want to make it clear that the judge's

job isn't to be a partisan actor. It's

to be the adjudicator of what the law

says. And as you know, my judge's clerk,

that's also my job and responsibility.

And I take that really seriously,

right? And

I think the true interpretation is that,

you [clears throat] know, I made this

decision on on ethics grounds. And it

was about what I thought, you know, the

law was, what the constitution demands.

And I was just hoping to explain my own

decision in a time when I think a lot of

people were facing a similar decision

and they weren't sure what it would look

like on the other side.

And I guess right now I'm speaking to

you from the other side of that

decision. Say

I was fine. I was actually more than

fine.

There is another side.

There is another side

to quitting a big prestigious

well-paying job at a law firm on

principal.

Yes. In the year 2025,

you'll end up all right. And

specifically speaking to the lawyers,

not everyone in America can safely speak

their mind right now. Mhm.

But lawyers

can obviously you may be targeted and

but the law firms that fought back and

are winning in courts are doing fine

financially. You know they're not

they're not going underwater

and

this I think existential fear was

completely overblown.

It was overstated

I think. So it was a excuse. I think it

was putting profits over an oath that

lawyers swear

to protect the constitution.

And you know, if someone like me ends up

fine, more than fine, then the executive

partners and chairpersons of these law

firms

who make many millions more,

right, would [snorts] have been

completely fine, too.

And [music]

regardless,

I think the oaths have to mean

something. [music]

Thank you [music] once again for your

time and your cander.

The the pleasure and the privilege is

all mine. I really just want to say

thank [music] you because you were a

huge part of what happened to me a few

months ago. You changed my life.

Oh, well, [music] you changed your own

life.

We just chronicled it.

[music]

Today's [music] Daily was produced by

Olivia Nat, Shannon Lynn, and Mooj

Zadei. It was edited by Patricia

Willins, Jodie [music] Becker, and

Michael Benois.

contains music by Dan Powell and Marian

Lozano and was engineered by Alyssa

[music] Moxley, Rowan Nisto, and Chris

Wood. Special thanks to Jessica Silver

Greenberg.

That's it [music] for the daily. I'm

Michael Borrow.

See you tomorrow.