Jan: J. Paul Nadeau is a retired police detective and hostage negotiator, and he joins me in studio. How are you doing, Paul?

I'm doing well. Jan, how are you doing?

I'm doing well. Well, let's let's talk about it. We know that numerous politicians and media have used the term taken hostage in describing their negotiations with Donald Trump. Is that just hyperbole, or is that, would you say, an accurate description?

That would be an accurate description. Not only is it just dealing with Trump, the state of the world right now with the uncertainties in democracy and in different policies that are coming out, are making people feel very, very anxious and a hostage to me. When people think about hostages, they think about people in cages, they think about people who have been taken by force. But really, when we take a look at the state of the world, we can still be taken hostage, even though there are no cages around us, because the people in control can make us feel unstable, worried, concerned. So yes, that's a very accurate description of what's happening.

Have we seen anyone like Donald Trump before? Sort of on the world stage before?

Oh, we have. Yes. Throughout history we have seen different people. I'm not going to compare Donald Trump to Hitler, but take a look at what happened back then in Germany with the dictatorships, the the different approaches, the rights that were taken away. But throughout history, we have had leaders who have really put themselves first. And consequently there's been there's been a lot of of anger and a lot of uncertainty in the world.

All right. In your book, The Hostage Effect, you speak about the re-election of Donald Trump as being sort of the catalyst for for why you decided to write this book. Help me understand that.

When Donald Trump was elected, I started to feel like a hostage myself. Like, what's going to happen next? He was talking about taking over Canada, taking over Greenland, all kinds of information was coming out and uncertainty. And I felt, well, what's going to happen next? Every day there was a new announcement and I felt anxious, and someone I know quite well reached out to me and says, are you feeling this, too? And I said, yeah. She says, if there was ever a time for you to talk about how the world is feeling like a hostage, it's now. And I thought about that and I thought, you're right. We are feeling like hostages. We're being taken captive.

There are obviously a number of stories in your book that you talk about, and I want to get sort of into the headspace of a negotiator. What are some of the early signs that a person is becoming a hostage in their situation, that you write about.

When they feel that their voices are being silenced, when they feel that at any time their safety can be jeopardised, their security can be jeopardised, their jobs can be gone. When a person feels that they are immobilised and unable to move forward from the fear of what our leaders will do or say or take away from us. That is a state of hostage. When I talk about the hostage effect, it's almost like a virus. It's a conditioning. You will listen to me and this is what's going to happen. So that's how people are feeling.

The what sort of mindset is best when preparing to enter a crisis negotiation? We won't talk necessarily as politicians in this case, but as a negotiator yourself. What does that mindset when you're entering into a situation? Or perhaps there is a story that you would like to share.

When I'm preparing for a negotiation, I am trying to find out as much as I possibly can about the person I'm about to negotiate with. What intelligence do we have? I'm going from a hostage negotiators standpoint. What do we know about this person? What are the circumstances? What are the barriers in front of it? How am I going to approach? Well, the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to seek first to understand and then to be understood, because people want to be heard, they want to be seen, they want to be felt. So when you're negotiating with someone in a conflict or even in a political situation, your approach has to be amicable, has to be open, and has to be someone who's inquiring, what is it that we can do together to work throughout this difficult situation that we're both, you know, what is it that we both want and how can we resolve this? And that's the mindset of a hostage negotiator. I understand you're going through a lot. Hey, Jeyan, I understand. I'm here to help. That's how I would approach you. If you had a hostage. And I would say, tell me what's going on so that I have a better understanding of where I can actually help you to reach what it is that you're trying to reach.

When we talk, when we when we say hostage, you know, hostages, hostage negotiations, I think we we tend to think of movies and we tend to think of, you know, the negotiator has been called in. There's a phone line, the person is far away. You are now brought in, you know, the sort of the tent or temporary sort of setup. You come in, you grab the phone and you start talking. Help me understand some of the stories. If there was one negotiation that sticks in your mind to this day. What is can you help us understand what that situation was on both ends for the person that you were talking to, but what you were doing?

Oh, absolutely. And what you described in the movies. Many accurate. Very. Okay. Yeah. For the most part. And that's exactly what it is. We don't want face to face negotiations when there's somebody holding a weapon. Because the danger is quite significant. So the telephone conversation and reaching someone I remember negotiating with a man who was distraught, and he had taken his his estranged wife and his four year old daughter hostage, and he had threatened to harm them before and to take their lives and to take his own. And I just remember getting on the phone with him and establishing that, hey, my name is Paul, I'm the negotiator. I'm here to help. And we then engaged in a conversation where I asked him to tell me what was going on in his mind, like, where are you right now? What's happening? And then focusing on the love he had for his daughter. And and that became a catalyst to find out what mattered to him the most. What matters to you here? And do you want to harm your daughter? Sometimes you have to ask the hard questions. And through that conversation, what I had him do is open up and realise what really was important to him, and then work with him to get him to a state where it took time, but where he understood that in everybody's best interest, it was time to release the child. It was time to release his wife. But first I had to get him to the door, which fortunately. And that was a very, very hard negotiation. It worked. Everybody lived. And that's what we're looking to do.

Let's return back to Trump in the sense of his personality might be a bit erratic, where maybe some people might not be able to to sense from one day to the next where he's going to be, you know, if you're on his, on his socials, it's, you know, a late night text sort of sends the world into a bit of chaos. But knowing what we know about Donald Trump, what are the most important aspects of his character for a negotiator to keep in mind? As you mentioned, when you go into these negotiations, you get a sense of who they are before. What do we know about him, and what are the ones that stick out to you as something, as someone who would go into a negotiation?

He's very focussed on acquiring a number of different things, and and money is one of them. He he says that he has the best interests of the United States in hand, and he's making some, some pretty harsh claims. He's doing some good in many areas, but in other areas it feels like he is really dictating the way things are going to happen. A negotiator has to approach that with an open mind and establish a rapport, because when somebody knows you, likes you and trusts you, they're more willing to work with you. We don't always have to agree with the person that we're discussing or negotiating with, but we certainly have to let them speak and to have them feel like they're being heard and feel like they're being understood. Unless we do that, there is no way of succeeding. And again, it comes down to trust, likeability. And those are the important keys that will get you to say, well, how is it that we can work together to make this work?

Do you want to clarify that Donald Trump is not literally taking hostages at the moment? We're talking theoretical ones, of course.

No, absolutely, absolutely.

I do want to understand sort of the hostage negotiation principles that you have trained on that you've used. Do they like which ones genuinely transfer to someone like Donald Trump? And then where do the analogies break down, where, you know, this is someone where you're going to have to apply something a little different.

The hostage negotiator approaches work in every circumstance. And I teach this in business. And everywhere there is, there is a way of approaching an individual that makes them feel heard. As I said earlier too. And it takes into consideration what they're going through because everybody is going through something different. But unless we have an inquiring mind and ask these, these things of people, we'll never know. So the approach is one of openness, one of willingness to to work. And if there is a conflict willing to work through that conflict, where it falls apart is where people stop communicating or put their hands up and say, listen, I've had enough of this, and you don't see things my way. It's like hostage negotiator. If I if if I had a hostage taker who had four hostages, if I wasn't getting along, wasn't willing to open up and take the time, it takes time. But if I was at that point where I said, listen, John, okay, we're just not getting along, how about you keep two hostages and you give me two hostages? We'll call it a day. You can't do that, right? You have to stay in for the long run and work as as meaningful as you possibly can to keep that negotiation going. Sometimes it's going to be rough. You have to go back and and regroup, rethink re-approach. I don't see that happening.

I want to what's a little bit different from perhaps some of the negotiations, as you mentioned, with one of your examples, these are done privately on a phone call. There's not a lot of noise. What we're seeing with Donald Trump is, as we mentioned, social media, we're seeing press conferences. When you talk about the word ambush, I think a lot of people think of, you know, Zelensky meeting Donald Trump in the white House and, you know, two leaders across from each other. And that was, again, not a negotiation of any sort. But what how does the negotiation change when the subject is performing for an audience, their supporters on media, for example?

It changes because I believe it's a matter of not being understood or throwing yourself out there and saying, look, it's me, look how tough I am. And that's going to happen in certain situations where an individual for the media will strike their chest and say, it's my way or the highway, and sometimes you just can't negotiate with someone who is in that state of mind, not at that time. And then in the background, there has to be other ways and means of trying to reach out and renegotiate and have that openness and that willingness.

Some might say that this is Donald Trump trying to get leverage in some of these situations. What do you say to that?

I say that's true. Yeah, I say that that that's very true in his mind. And I can't go back and tell you exactly where this all originated from. But yes, he does want leverage. And we're seeing that in many instances where certain things are being taken, almost taken away from people. That's why they're feeling like hostages.

There are many folks who wonder why even bother picking up the phone or even keeping that line active. Why not just hang it up? Why? Why even bother negotiating with Trump?

Imagine not. Imagine not standing up and and taking whatever action you possibly can. Rightful action. Imagine just giving up and saying, okay, you got it all. When people don't express their opposition and do it in a peaceful way, then everything will be taken away. Our rights, our voices, our privileges. This is why it's so important to continue to negotiate with someone like Trump, or to continue to do peaceful resistance as to what you see as an injustice, because not doing it makes you that hostage we're talking about. You think you're a hostage now give up on on negotiating with Trump. Give up on speaking about what you feel are injustices within your country. And 1984 is right around the corner.

Let's talk about our lead negotiator here in this country, Mark Carney. I'm going to play to the movies here. If you found yourself in an elevator with Carney, maybe you've got 30 seconds before he goes. What advice would you give him as he enters another round of negotiations with Donald Trump?

Learn how to negotiate. Learn how to learn how to to speak, to listen and to show genuine interest. I would say. You have to take a stance and you have to do it with a certain amount of authority, but you also have to be willing to listen. And again, I go back to what Stephen Covey has said for many, many years. And in his books and his speaks, his talks seek first to understand, then to be understood. Know what you want out of the deal, but also ask the other individual. Be willing to engage and build that trust, not take an offensive. But I haven't seen a negotiation. That's the problem. I haven't seen that.

Okay, Paul, we are going to have to leave it there. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for your insights on this one.

Thank you very much.