以下节目包含某些观众可能会感到不安的内容，可能不适合较年轻的观众收看。建议观众酌情观看。
英文原文
The following program contains subject matter that some viewers may find disturbing and may not be suitable for younger audiences. Viewer discretion is advised.您正在收听的是《Mistreated》。[音乐] 我是南姆·基瓦努卡（Nam Kiwanuka）。
英文原文
>> You're listening to Mistreated. [music] I'm Nam Kiwanuka.“那感觉就像坐在一部缆绳突然断裂的电梯里。”这是奥运选手克拉拉·休斯（Clara Hughes）新回忆录《学会呼吸》（Learning to Breathe）的开篇第一句。在第一章中，她描述了自己在一次独自行进 760 公里、距离终点仅剩 40 公里时，膝盖严重受伤倒地的情景。她坚持走完了全程，最终膝盖不得不接受两次大手术。
而且在那场手术中，因为她主动要求，她全程保持清醒。
为什么？
克拉拉·休斯创造了历史，成为唯一一位在夏季和冬季奥运会上都获得多枚奖牌的运动员。但孩提时代的她，三年级就开始吸烟，到 12 岁时就开始酗酒并沉迷派对。在《学会呼吸》中，她写到了痛苦如何成为一种荣誉勋章，以及作为一名前精英运动员，她如何将更年期视为一种“格外的背叛”。
她还分享了一些童年秘密，这些秘密是在她经历了两年的密集治疗、且在一些人看来可能属于非传统疗法之后才被揭开的。我们在多伦多大学罗特曼管理学院现场观众面前录制了与她的对话。[音乐] 请细心聆听。[音乐] 克拉拉·休斯现在加入了我的对话。
哇。
这本书，我知道你在书中写到了很多艰难的经历。
英文原文
>> It was like riding in an elevator whose cables suddenly snapped. That's the opening line of Olympian Clara Hughes' new memoir, Learning to Breathe. In the opening chapter, she describes how she wrecked her knee and came tumbling down to the ground after covering 760 km on a solo hike with just 40 left to go. She completed the hike and ended up needing two major surgical procedures on her knee.And for the surgery, she was awake because she asked to be.
Why?
Clara Hughes made history becoming the only athlete to win multiple medals at both the Summer and Winter Olympic Games. But as a child, she began smoking in grade three and by 12 years old, she was drinking and partying hard. In Learning to Breathe, she writes about how pain became a badge of honor and how as a former elite athlete, she felt menopause as {quote} an extra betrayal.
She also shares some childhood secrets that were uncovered after she spent two years in intense in what some could consider as unconventional therapy. We spoke to her in a conversation recorded [music] in front of a live audience at the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management. Please listen with care. [music] Clara Hughes joins me now.
Wow.
This book, I know you've written about a lot of difficult experiences in the book.
是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.这是你的故事。
英文原文
>> This is your story.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.如果我问到某个你不想涉及的问题，就直接说：“南姆，我不想谈那个。”
英文原文
>> If I ask you a question that you don't want to approach, just say, Nam, I don't want to talk about that.谢谢你。
英文原文
>> Thank you.你的故事，它属于你。
英文原文
>> your story, it belongs to you.好的，非常感谢你。
英文原文
>> Yeah, thank you very much.当然。你在本回忆录中揭示了一些重大的秘密。面对这第二本回忆录《学会呼吸》，你感觉如何？
英文原文
>> Of course. You reveal some big secrets in this memoir. How are you feeling with the second memoir, Learning to Breathe?嗯，谢天谢地，我没有缺氧窒息。[笑声]
英文原文
>> Well, thankfully, I'm not struggling for oxygen and choking. [laughter][吸气]
英文原文
>> [gasps]也没有如履薄冰。坦白讲，能分享我的经历、我的故事，感觉如释重负。而且最美好、最令人鼓舞的事情，是收到了读者的回馈——他们在读完后，并不一定仅仅是与我产生联结，而是与他们自己产生了联结。
他们或许是人生中第一次在自己经历的某些挣扎中感到被看见，这也是为什么我写了这本书。
它是写给大家的，但尤其是写给女性的，特别是处于人生这个阶段的女性——这个阶段可能会令人困惑，通常确实如此，这个阶段彻底震撼了我的世界，那就是中年。我现在 54 岁了，收到读者如此美好的接纳与反馈对我而言意义重大，它深深地鼓舞了我。
英文原文
>> Uh nor am I skating on thin ice. Honestly, it feels liberating to have shared my experiences, my stories, and the most beautiful thing and the most uplifting thing has been receiving readers' experiences having read it and not, you know, necessarily connecting to me, connecting to themselves.Having felt seen in some of their struggles for the maybe first time in their lives and that is why I wrote this book
for everyone, but particularly for women, particularly for women in this season of life that is can be confusing, often is is place that rocked my world, midlife. I'm 54 years old and sort of received a beautiful receiving welcome from the readers means the world to me and it just lifts me up.
好的，我们肯定要谈谈围绝经期（perimenopause）。
英文原文
>> Well, we are going to talk about the perimenopause.是的。[笑声]
英文原文
>> Yeah. [laughter]我们就从这里开始。
英文原文
>> We're going to start there.你知道，曾几何时，这还是一个我们只会低声耳语的词。
英文原文
>> You know, once upon a time, this is a word that we just going to like whispered.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.能够生活在一个我们能自由畅谈它的时代，感觉真好。
英文原文
>> And it feels so good to live at a time when we actually can talk about it freely.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.痛苦作为生存机制与直面肉体毁灭
在《学会呼吸》的第一章中，你描述了一个令人揪心的场景：你承受着极度的剧痛。好吧，对于像我这样的人来说是极度剧痛，对你而言可能只是某个普通的星期二。
英文原文
>> Uh so, in the first chapter of Learning to Breathe, you describe a harrowing scene of you in excruciating pain. Well, excruciating pain for someone like me, for you it's any Tuesday.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]你写道把自己的身体逼到了极限，最终需要做两次大手术。
英文原文
>> And uh you write about pushing your body to the limit and you end up needing two major surgical procedures.是的。
英文原文
>> Yeah.而且在长达约 3 小时的这两次手术过程中，你全程保持清醒。
英文原文
>> And you stay awake for the two procedures, which take about 3 hours.是的。
英文原文
>> Yes.你这样写道，引用：“顺便说一下，手术期间我保持着清醒。是我主动要求的。我想看看自己膝盖的内部，听听骨锯的声音。我想亲眼见证自己如此不遗余力地逼迫自己所造成的破坏。最终看清忽视自己本应面对的一切是多么具有自我毁灭性。”痛苦是如何对你而言成为一种荣誉勋章的？
英文原文
>> So, you write this, quote, I stayed awake during the surgery, by the way. I asked to. I wanted to look inside my knee to hear the sawing. I wanted to witness the damage I had done to myself by pushing so relentlessly. To see finally how self-destructive it was to ignore what I needed to face. How did pain become a badge of honor for you?它不仅成了一种荣誉勋章，而且成了一种生存方式。你知道，作为一名运动员，作为一名耐力运动员，特别是在我从事的那些残酷项目中——速度滑冰和大组公路自行车赛——你的训练永远不够苦，你永远逼自己逼得不够狠。我曾经很喜欢去认为、相信，并且为之自豪的一点就是：我能够挺过任何程度的痛苦。我觉得自己仿佛把它代谢掉了。我吞下了它，并把它当作燃料。
英文原文
>> Uh it became um not just a badge of honor, but a way of surviving. And um you know, as an athlete, as an endurance athlete, particularly in my sports that were grueling sports, long track speed skating and road cycling, you could never train hard enough. You could never push hard enough. And I loved to think and believe and and uh I was proud of the fact that I could push through any level of pain. I felt like I metabolized it. I ate it up and used it as fuel.那充满挑战。
英文原文
>> >> It was challenging.哦，是的。是的。然后那只会给我更多能量去制造更多痛苦。我现在明白了，你知道，从现在人生的这个阶段、这个时期回望，我拥有了不同的视角，那是一个极度需要不去感受任何东西的年轻人。制造身体上的痛苦，能让我不必去触碰我一直背负的情感痛苦。那根植于深深的、早期童年创伤、生活经历，而我找到的生存途径和方法就是惩罚自己。因此，作为一名运动员，你知道，我引以为傲的一切、我从事运动的方式、我做事以及攻坚克难的方式，其实全都是一种生存方式。
英文原文
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then it would just give me more energy to make more pain. And I now know, you know, with a with a different um vantage point in this the season of life, this phase of life looking back, that that was a young person who desperately needed not to feel. And creating levels of physical pain allowed me to not have to tap into the emotional pain that I have always carried. That's rooted in deep, you know, early childhood trauma, um experiences of life, and the methods and the ways that I found to survive were through punishing myself. And so, as an athlete, you know, everything that I took pride in and the way I went about my sport and the way I was able to do things and push through things, it was really a way of survival.你说，那是你惩罚自己的一种方式。
如今你拥有了年长一些的视角，
听到这些。作为一个年轻人、一个小女孩，你曾经惩罚自己。那么，在人生的这个时刻，当你现在使用这样一个词时，你会想到什么？
英文原文
>> You said uh it was a way for you to punish yourself.Now you have this vantage point of being older,
and you hear that. You punished yourself as a young person, as a young girl. So, when you use that kind of word now in this point of life, you think what?
我会带着同理心、同情、怜惜，也带着骄傲去看待那个女孩，因为她找到了一种生存下去的方式。但我也看着那个，你知道，曾经从事体育的那个孩子、曾经那样离经叛道的叛逆少女，她找到了另一种方式来……
英文原文
>> Well, I look at that girl with with empathy, with sympathy, with compassion, and with pride as well, because she found a way to survive. But I also look at that, you know, the the kid that I was in sports, um the the teenager that I was that was so delinquent, that found a different way to我当时就想，克拉拉……
英文原文
>> >> I was like, Clara,是的，我知道。我知道。而且……
英文原文
>> >> Yeah, I know. I know. And and酗酒？
英文原文
>> >> drinking?哦，是的，是的。我……
我来自温尼伯。所以，[笑声] 来自我的家乡。在座有温尼伯人吗？
但真的，这一切源于一个非常不安全的家庭。我姐姐和我，在十几岁的时候都在街头上混得很凶，你知道，破碎的家庭，不安全的环境。
我不知道什么是安全感。而且，我也背负了满满一卡车的创伤，我自己都不知道自己背负着这些，于是你必须寻找生存的方法、熬过去的方法、应对和麻痹自己的方法。体育是将我带离那些不良行为的途径，但很快体育又变成了另一条毁灭之路。所以，当我回首往事并说出“惩罚”这个词时，不仅是指体育，你知道，也包括我离开体育之后的生活。我从奥林匹克运动退役后，有了一项新爱好：长途徒步。在接下来的几年里，我徒步了大约 25,000 公里。
英文原文
>> Oh, yeah, yeah. I I'm from Winnipeg. So, [laughter] from my homeland. Any Winnipegers in the room?Um But no, it really was coming from a very unsafe home. And um and my sister and I both hit the streets hard, you know, as teenagers, and broken home, unsafe place. Um
I did not know safety. And so, and I also carried a truckload of trauma that I didn't know I was carrying, and you find ways to survive that, ways to get through, ways to manage and numb. And um sport is something that got me out of those delinquent activities, but soon sport became a different path of destruction. So, when I look back and I say that word punishment, um it's not just sport, it's, you know, my life after sport. I did, you know, I went from Olympic sport and uh took on a new hobby, long-distance hiking. So, I hiked about 25,000 km in the next few years.
这确实是你会做的事。
英文原文
>> >> As you do.这真的就像是，我必须让自己变得无比强大，这样就没人能伤害我；变得无比迅速，这样就没人能抓得住我。因为我一直在恐惧、羞耻和彻底混乱的状态中奔跑和生活。因此，我只需要不停地向前移动。所以，当我想到“惩罚”这个词时，这只是说出实情罢了，你知道吗？而我当时并不知道这一点。就算知道，那种惩罚自己的想法似乎也是件好事，因为我靠着惩罚自己赢得了奥运奖牌，而且根本没人在意，因为我太成功了。我认为你不必非得是运动员，生活中也会感到内心正在发生的事情与外人所看到的截然不同——当你被赞美、被推崇、取得成功、赚到金钱、拥有企业、赢得奥运奖牌时。
英文原文
>> And it really was, you know, like I had to make myself so strong so nobody could hurt me, and so fast so nobody could catch me, because I was running and living from a state of fear, a state of shame, a state of absolute confusion. And so, I just needed to keep moving forward. And so, when I think of that word punishment, it's just being honest, you know? And I didn't know it at the time. Like, and if I did, that that that idea of punishing myself seemed like a good thing because I was winning Olympic medals punishing myself, and nobody was really noticing because I was so successful, and I don't think you have to be an athlete to be in life feeling like you have something very different going on in on the inside that's people are seeing on the outside, and when you're being celebrated and lifted up and succeeding and making money and owning businesses, winning Olympic medals.人们呼喊着你的名字。
英文原文
>> >> People calling your name out.人们呼喊着你的名字，这会让你顺着这种轨道继续走下去。对我而言，这是一条毁灭之路，却没有谁能拉我一把，因为就凭我当时做那些事的方式，连我自己都看不清它。
英文原文
>> People calling your name out, it keeps you going in this way that um for me it was a path of destruction that nobody helped me get off of because I couldn't even see it myself the way I was doing what I was doing.更年期危机与向内探索的恐惧
你曾说你逼迫自己，没人能追得上你，但它降临到了我们每个人头上——
英文原文
>> Well, you said that you pushed yourself and no one could catch you, but as it comes for all of us是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.更年期找上门了。
英文原文
>> the menopause did.哦，是的。是的。
英文原文
>> >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.在我们谈论更年期之前，我自己也在经历这个阶段。不过，你曾说过运动对你来说是良药，体育如何帮助你挺过那些肉体痛苦，体育又如何拯救了你。
英文原文
>> Before we talk about menopause, oh, I'm going through it myself. Um but uh so you've spoken about how movement is medicine for you and how sport helped you to push through that physical pain and how sport also saved you.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.还有这段引言：“在情感上，这招在 50 年里对我非常非常管用。好吧，也许它对我潜滋暗长的心灵痛苦没起作用。也许我晚餐时喝的那杯红酒，每晚都不止一杯，但我没有承认这一点。我只是靠步行把它化解掉。”
英文原文
>> And that quote, "Emotionally that worked really, really well for me for 50 years. Okay, maybe it wasn't working for my creeping emotional distress. Maybe that glass of wine I was having at dinner was more than just one every night, but I wasn't admitting that. I was walking it off."哦，是的。
英文原文
>> >> Oh, yeah.所以在这本书中，你运用不同的方法向内探索，更深地挖掘自己的心灵。肉体与心理，这两者哪一个更具挑战性：是将身体推向肉体极限，还是向内探索？
英文原文
>> Um so in this book you go inward using different methods to dig deeper into your psyche, uh the physical versus mental. Which is more challenging, pushing your body beyond physical limits or going inward?向内。
绝对是向内。那太可怕了。我这辈子从没这么害怕过。因为内心深处有我未知的东西。
而且因为我花了半个世纪的时间，用强化身体的方式来逃避感受和面对那些东西，从它们身边逃开——从字面意义上滑冰逃离它们、骑车逃离它们。
英文原文
>> Inward.Absolutely inward. It was terrifying. I've never been so scared in my life. Uh because of what was inside that I didn't know.
And because I had spent half of a century strengthening my way out of feeling and facing those things and running from them, literally skating from them, biking from them.
但你知道有些东西一直在那里，对吧？
英文原文
>> >> But you knew something was there, right?是的。是的，我很归功于也很感激更年期，它彻底颠覆了我的世界。这不仅是更年期的体验本身，从根本上说，也是因为在人生的这一时期缺乏照护、支持、资源，以及缺乏每个女性应得的医疗照护渠道。你知道，走进温哥华岛的一家免约诊所（walk-in clinic），当时只觉得自己不想再活在这世上了。就像觉得，好吧，我可以结束这种糟糕透顶的感觉，以及我认为自己给生活中所有人带来的麻烦，只要我不再留在这里。然而我被开出了百忧解（Prozac）。
当我要求进行激素替代疗法、更年期激素疗法时，却被另一位医生再次开出了抗抑郁药。
他们对我说：“噢，这能消除你的盗汗和潮热。你会睡得更好，情况会好转的。你的情绪会平稳下来。”字面意义上，那种感觉——我想许多女性都能对此产生共鸣——就好像我的更年期被当成了心理健康障碍来对待。这让我回想起那个时代：我们把处于这个美好人生阶段的女性称为癔症患者，并把她们送进收容机构。因此，这令人愤怒，同时也让我感到羞耻。
因为我想：“难道是我出了什么大毛病吗？
以至于我甚至不知道发生了什么，而这位医生也不知道该如何帮助我。”我也深知那不是抑郁症。我也知道，每晚喝下的那半瓶、四分之三瓶红酒，它确实……
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah, and it was, you know, I credit and I'm so grateful for menopause that flipped my world upside down. And it wasn't just the experience of menopause, it was also fundamentally the lack of care and support and resources and access to the care that every woman deserves in this season of life. To go in, you know, going to a walk-in clinic on Vancouver Island and just feeling like I didn't want to be here anymore. Like feeling like, okay, I can just end this problem of how bad I'm feeling and how the problem that I am for everyone in my life that I believed at the time by not being here anymore. And being prescribed Prozac.When I'm asking for hormone replacement therapy, menopause, you know, hormone therapy, and being prescribed antidepressants again from another doctor.
Telling them telling me that, "Oh, it'll get rid of your night sweats and hot flashes. You'll sleep better and things will get better. Your moods will regulate." And literally, it felt like, and I think many women can relate to this. Like my menopause was being treated as a mental health disorder. And it reminds me of going back to the time when we called women hysterical and institutionalized them in that this beautiful season of life. And so, it was infuriating and it was also um it was maybe feel ashamed.
Cuz I thought, "Is there just something so wrong with me?
That I don't even know what's going on and this doctor doesn't know how to help me." And I also knew that it wasn't depression. I also knew that, you know, that half bottle of three-quarter bottle of wine every night that I was drinking, it yes,
你在麻痹某些东西。
英文原文
>> >> You were numbing something.我在麻痹某些东西，而我只是不想再压抑它了。我想走向内在，看看究竟发生了什么，因为我知道这绝不仅仅是眼前这个人生阶段的问题。我就是有这种感觉：我这辈子一直在不知不觉中背着这个背包，里面装着沉重的巨石，那些甚至不是我自己的石头，或许是我的经历，我不知道是谁把它们放进去的，我想弄清楚，我想卸下那个重负。
英文原文
>> I was numbing something and I just didn't want to push it down anymore. I wanted to go inward and see what the heck was going on because I knew it wasn't just this time in life. I just had this feeling that I had been carrying this backpack my whole life without knowing it with boulders inside that weren't my own, that maybe were my experiences, and I didn't know who put them in there, and I wanted to find out, and I wanted to unload that pack.我稍后会聊到那里。我只是想在更年期的话题上稍作停留。
因为在书中你写道，引用：“作为一名前精英运动员，我感到更年期是一种格外的背叛。”为什么会这样？
英文原文
>> I'm going to go there in a second. I just wanted to stay on menopause for a little bit because in the book you write that, quote, "As a former elite athlete, I felt menopause as an extra betrayal." How come?噢，因为我的身体曾是一台机器。我曾为这台机器感到骄傲，我可以指挥它，我可以指示它、逼迫它、向它索取。我从未给予我的身体应有的人道尊重。所以那种感觉就像是：你为什么不能运转了？我明明在对你发号施令。紧接着我弄伤了膝盖，3 个月无法行走，整整一年无法徒步，我真切地失去了运动这条生命线。这正是真正让我崩溃的原因，让我陷入了深度的自杀意念和绝望，也正是这把我推到了那个医生的诊室里。所以，我对自己的身体感到愤怒。就像在质问：你怎么回事？你不能运转了。
英文原文
>> Oh, because my body was a machine. Like, I prided this machine that I could direct and I could, you know, instruct and push and demand of. I had never treated my body with a level of humane respect. And so, it felt like, like, why aren't you working anymore? Cuz I'm telling you what to do, and then I blew my knee out, and then I couldn't walk for 3 months, and I couldn't hike for a year, and I literally lost my lifeline of movement. And that is what really set me off and left me in a place of deep suicidal ideation and despair that brought me to that doctor's office. And so, I was mad at my body. Like, what is wrong with you? You're not working anymore.那些你以前能够掌控的。
英文原文
>> >> that you could control before.完全如此。而那次膝伤之所以发生，是因为我在此前 11 个月就已经弄伤了它。而我当时没有理会疼痛。我没有具备功能的半月板。我撕裂了半月板。然后我……
英文原文
>> Absolutely. And I that knee injury happened because I injured it 11 months before that. And I didn't listen to the pain. I had no functioning meniscus. I'd ripped the meniscus out. And I而你当时还在徒步。
英文原文
>> >> And you were hiking.我在没有正常功能的半月板的情况下徒步了 2,000 公里。那就像开着一辆破旧的汽车在没有减震器的土路上行驶。我的膝盖就是那个状态，随后我造成了严重的软骨损伤，以至于不得不做胫骨高位截骨术（high tibial osteotomy），他们锯开胫骨，改变我小腿下端的角度，就因为我没有听从自己的身体。这具身体正在垮掉，我对它感到愤怒。因为除了苛求之外，我从未与它建立过任何关系。
英文原文
>> I hiked 2,000 km with no functioning meniscus. That's like riding, you know, a crappy car on a dirt road with no shocks. That was my knee and subsequently I did major cartilage damage that I had to get a high tibial osteotomy where they sawed the tibia and changed the angle of the bottom of my leg because I didn't listen to my body. And so, this body was breaking down, and I was mad at it. Because I didn't have a relationship with it other than demand.所以，你大半辈子觉得唯一能掌控的东西失灵了。
英文原文
>> >> So, the one thing that you felt like you could control for most of your life isn't working.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah,掌控的幻觉。
英文原文
>> >> illusion of control.掌控与……
英文原文
>> Control and在内心深处，你感到有一场风暴正在酝酿。你用极其令人心碎的话语描述了你对自己当时的感受。
你承认你的自我批评一向苛刻，但如今，引用“它正在演变成纯粹的自我厌恶，恶毒而残忍”，并且，引用“我当时并没有制定结束生命的实际计划，但生命的终结感觉像是一个不错的选择”。
英文原文
>> inside you're feeling there's a storm like that's brewing. You describe how you felt about yourself in incredibly heartbreaking terms.You admit that your self-criticism had always been rough but now quote it was blooming into pure self-loathing, vicious and cruel and that quote I wasn't making actual plans to end my life but my life ending felt like a good option.
是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.克拉拉，当你听我向你重新念出这些话时，你脑海中在想什么？
英文原文
>> Clare, when you hear me read that back to you, what goes through your mind?噢，这让我想哭。
这让我想哭，我感到非常激动。
因为我当时真的不知道发生了什么。我真的、真的不知道。我一直把我的生活打包成这样一种模式：只要我足够强大，就没人能伤害我；我跑得足够快，就没人能追上我。只要我能一直前进，只要我不断喂饱内心这个深不见底的空洞，事情或许就会好到让我可以继续支撑下去。
因此，当我听到那些话，回想起那些时刻、那些月份、那段我深信这一切皆是事实的日子。那真的是我当时真切的感受。我为那个女人感到难过，因为她当时需要帮助。
英文原文
>> Oh, it makes me want to cry. It makes me want to cry and I get very emotional because I just didn't know what was going on. I really really didn't know. I had packaged my life in a way that as long as I'm so strong, nobody can hurt me. I'm so fast, nobody can catch me. As long as I can keep going and as long as I keep feeling feeding this bottomless void of emptiness inside of me things might be okay enough that I can keep going.And so when I hear those words and I remember those moments, those months, that that period of time when I believed that to be true. That is truly how I felt. I feel sad for that woman because she needed help.
你告诉你丈夫了吗？
英文原文
>> >> Did you tell your husband?我没有。我不知道该如何用言语来表达。当我终于允许自己开口谈论这事时，是我当时在温哥华岛和一位邻居一起做艺术创作，她是一位出色的艺术家，那天下午我们正在做艺术品。她突然问：“你到更年期了吗？”而我当时的反应有点像：“等等，更年期？也许这里面真有点原因。”
英文原文
>> I didn't. I didn't know how to find the words for it and the you know, when I finally allowed myself to speak about this, it was I was doing art with one of my neighbors on Vancouver Island and she's a fantastic artist and we're just doing art one afternoon. She was like, "So are you in menopause yet?" And I'm like and I was like I was kind of like, "Wait a minute, menopause? Maybe there's something here."你之前知道什么是更年期吗？抱歉，我以前不知道那是什么。蠢问题。我以前不知道那是什么。
英文原文
>> >> Did you know what menopause was? Sorry, I didn't what was. It dumb question. I didn't know what it was.我……好吧，我知道围绝经期，我听过一次这个词，那是我 46 岁去看妇科医生做常规检查时。她说：“哦，我们应该给你查查围绝经期。”我说：“好啊，查吧。”验血结果出来后，她说：“哦，没事，你还没进入这个阶段。”所以，当我坐在邻居身边时，她问我：“你还好吗？”我当时就像是在把线索拼凑在一起，接着她问：“你在用激素替代疗法（HRT）吗？”当时她说：“它救了我的命。”她六十多岁了，她说：“如果我没有接受那个治疗，我都不知道自己现在还会不会活在这个世上。”就在那一刻，我心想：“我也有着一模一样的感受。”她一下子情绪崩溃了，对我说：“你必须去寻求帮助。”正是那一刻把我带到了免约诊所，把我带到了医生那里。是一个女性朋友向我分享了她的经历。
英文原文
>> I Okay, so I knew perimenopause, I heard that word once and it was when I was 46 years old at the gynecologist and did routine tests and everything. She was like, "Oh, we should test you for perimenopause." I was like, "Yeah, sure." Got the blood work back and um she's like, "Oh, no, you're not in it." So, when I sat with my neighbor and then she was like, "Are you okay?" And I was like putting like two and two together and she was like, "Are you on HRT?" At the time, she was like, "It saved my life." She's in her 60s and she was like, "If I had not received that, I don't know if I would be here." And that was the moment when I was like, "I'm feeling those same things." And she just broke down and she was like, "You have to get help." And that's what brought me to the walk-in clinic and brought me to the doctor. It was It was a girlfriend telling me her experience.所以，如果不是因为这位邻居……如果你对此一无所知，你会觉得自己整个人像是要分崩离析了。
英文原文
>> >> So, if it hadn't been for this neighbor, um this is something that if you don't know about it, you feel as if your mind is coming apart.觉得自己要疯了，很多女性都这么说。我觉得自己在失去对现实的把握。我不再知道自己是谁了。我变得不像自己了。
英文原文
>> you're losing your mind and so many women say that. I feel like I was losing my grip on reality. I didn't know who I was anymore. I wasn't myself.你是什么时候最终对自己说：“我得针对这事采取行动了”？
英文原文
>> >> When did you finally um say to yourself, "I need to do something about this?"就在那一刻。而我的膝盖手术，巧合的是，距离我最后一次月经周期整整一年，几乎是一天不差。所以是在康复期间，当我失去了运动这条生命线时——运动曾是我的全部生活。我过去总以为是奥林匹克运动把我从毁灭之路上拯救了出来，但我现在知道，其实是社区体育运动。那是始终都在的生命线。我是个在社区体育中长大的孩子。我玩过冰上扫帚球（ringette）、足球，什么都玩，但我从没成为真正规范的运动员，因为我太叛逆了。坦白讲，当我看到奥运会时，那彻底改变了我的生活，因为它让我远离了毒品和酒精，最终戒了烟。
但当时我看到奥运会的情景是，我口袋里揣着一包烟，心想：“我要成为一名奥运选手。”我抽着那些烟，像刚才提到的那样去放纵狂欢。[笑声]
所以……
英文原文
>> It was in that moment and my knee surgeries, they were actually coincidentally 1 year from my last menstrual cycle, almost to the day. And so, it was in the recovery when I lost my, you know, my lifeline of movement that, you know, it was my whole life. I always thought that Olympic sport saved me from the path of destruction I was on, but I now know it was community sport. It was the lifeline that was always there. I was a community sport kid. I played ringette, soccer, I played everything, but I was never an athlete cuz I was such a delinquent. And honestly, like when I saw the Olympics, which totally changed my life because it got me off of drugs and alcohol and eventually quit smoking, um but I literally saw the Olympics, I had a pack of smokes in my pocket and I was like, "I'm going to be an Olympian." And I smoked those cigarettes, and I partied [laughter] like he said. And so,你玩得很凶。
英文原文
>> >> You went out hard.但这对我来说确实是一条生命线，我现在把它看作贯穿我人生的一条美丽脉络。而在我弄伤膝盖时，我失去了它。一切演变成了一场完美的风暴。是的。
英文原文
>> But it really was a lifeline for me, and I now see it just as a beautiful thread through my life. And um I lost that when I wrecked my knee. And everything became this perfect storm. Yeah.躯体治疗与地下迷幻辅助疗法的探索
徒步对你而言也一直是一种疗愈。
除了徒步之外，在这两年的时间里，你尝试了许多形式的治疗。你也转向了迷幻剂辅助疗法（psychedelic assisted therapy）。你尝试了什么，又是如何开始尝试这些不同形式的疗法的？
英文原文
>> >> And hiking has always been therapy for you.Um and along with hiking, so during this 2-year period, you tried many forms of therapy. And uh you also turned to psychedelic assisted therapy. Yeah. Uh what did you try, and how did you come to try these different forms of therapy?
好吧，我会在这里被逮捕吗？
英文原文
>> >> Okay, am I going to get arrested here?[笑声] 我之前不确定该不该问这个问题，因为……
英文原文
>> [laughter] I wasn't sure if I'd ask this question cuz不，我开玩笑的。我必须说明，我做的所有这一切都是在地下进行的。这些致幻剂和同理心化合物（empathogenic compounds），除了临床研究之外，在加拿大大部分都是不合法的。我开始与一位来自新西兰的躯体取向治疗师合作。这也是我在更年期意识到的另一件事，就像是：我觉得我需要重新接受心理治疗了。已经过去好多年了，我以为自己没事了，但现在情况真的很不一样。我的医生也鼓励我再去寻求这方面的支持。所以我找到了一位治疗师，我对身心联结感到非常好奇，因为我想：我觉得这里面有些问题，我觉得它们并不像我所以为的那样联结在一起。当我开始与这位治疗师合作时，那对我来说感到匪夷所思。比如，我连一个简单的身体扫描都做不了。我感觉不到自己身体的任何一个部位。
英文原文
>> No, I'm just kidding. Um you know, I have to say that like I did all of this underground. These psychedelic and empathogenic compounds, most of them are not legal in Canada except for clinical studies. I started working with a somatic-based therapist out of New Zealand. And this was another thing that I realized um through menopause is just like, I think I need to go back into therapy. It's been a bunch of years, and I thought I was okay, and things are really different now. And my doctor had encouraged me to seek that out again. So, I found a therapist, and I was very curious about the mind-body connection because I was like, I think there's something going on here. I don't think it's as connected as I think it is. And as I started to work with this therapist, I it was bewildering to me. Like, I couldn't do a simple body scan. I couldn't feel a single part of my body.你感觉不到自己的脚。
英文原文
>> >> You couldn't feel your feet.我感觉不到脚趾、手肘，什么都感觉不到。如果我看着它们并且非常努力去感觉，我能感觉到；但一旦闭上眼睛，我就会觉得，我什么都感觉不到。我觉得自己的脑袋漂浮在上方，而身体是一个独立的实体。
英文原文
>> I could not feel my toes, my elbows, anything. I could feel them if I looked at them and really tried, but with my eyes closed, I was just like, I can't feel anything. And I felt like my head was floating up here, and this body was this separate entity.那可怕吗？
英文原文
>> >> Is that scary?那很可怕，也很令人恼火。我当时就想：为什么我做不到这个？于是我会更加努力。我想：“去思考，去感受；去思考，去感受”，完全卡在自己的头脑里。根本无法走出这个硕大的头颅。
这也很有意思。
英文原文
>> It was terrifying, and it was annoying. I was just like, why can't I do this? So, I would try harder. I'm like, think, feel, think, feel is so stuck in my head. Could not get out of this big skull.And and it was interesting.
很完美。
英文原文
>> >> is perfect.是的。是的，我的头本来就很大，所以确实非常大。[笑声] 而且，你知道，做冥想之类的事情时，我就会觉得，啊，光是坐在那里思考、又试图不去思考之类的事真让人烦躁，除了冷水浸泡和桑拿这类事情。那些事情我把它当作挑战来接受，我想：我一定要征服这个。我要跳进人类有史以来泡过的最冰冷的水里。[笑声] 尽管来吧。我要出比任何人都多的汗。于是我制定了自己的日程表，列出所有我要做的躯体训练项目。我会像这样打勾、打勾、打勾、打勾。与我合作的治疗师对我说：“你知道这不是奥运比赛。”
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah, I also have a very large head, so it's very big. [laughter] And and then also, you know, doing things like meditation, I was just like, ah, it's so annoying to just sit here and like think and try not to think and all of the things except for like cold water stuff and sauna stuff, like those things I took on as a challenge and I was just like, I'm going to nail this. I'm going to go in the coldest water ever entered by a human being. [laughter] Bring it on. I'm going to sweat harder than anyone has ever sweated. And so I had my like schedule of all the somatic things I was going to do. I would be like, check, check, check, check. And the therapist I was working with he was like, you know this isn't an Olympic sport.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]就像“这最后没有你能拿到的奖牌或奖杯，因为这没有终点。这就是生活”。
但我还是拼命硬上，而且这位治疗师也从事迷幻剂辅助疗法的工作。所以我有了一个切入途径。我与这个人建立了一定程度的信任，以至于我感到有安全感去和他共事的同行们一起进入一个静修营环境。那是我的第一次体验。我很具好奇心，但我也想见见我的治疗师，而且我当时也觉得，也许有什么东西能帮助弥合这种鸿沟。
它深深地震撼了我。我不打算撒谎。那是令人震惊的，极其令人不安，彻底打破了平衡，但同时也带来了深沉的启发，因为我所有的防御都瓦解了。所有层层的防护都脱落了，我真正地与自己待在一起。
英文原文
>> Like there is no medal that or trophy that you're going to get at the end of this because there is no end. This is life.And but I went hard and this therapist also worked in psychedelic assisted therapy. So I had a way in. I had established a a level of trust with this person that I felt safe going into a retreat environment with colleagues that he worked with. And it was my first experience. I was curious, but I wanted to meet my therapist and I was also like, maybe there's something that can help bridge this gap. And um it shook me to the core. I'm not going to lie. It was it was shocking. It was deeply disturbing. It was completely destabilizing and it was also deeply inspiring because all of my defenses came down. All of the layers of protection came down and I actually was with myself.
所以在这两年的时间里，你真的很专注投入。
英文原文
>> >> So during this two-year period, you were really locked in.我非常投入。
英文原文
>> >> I was locked in.有一天你最亲近的朋友之一在散步时对你说，他问：“你是进了个邪教吗？”
英文原文
>> >> And one of your closest friends says to you one day when you're on a walk, he's like, are you in a cult?哦对，那是肖恩·麦肯（Sean McCann）。他是 Great Big Sea 乐队的创作歌手。他是纽芬兰人，说话开门见山。他问：“你进邪教了吗？”因为我结识了所有这些新朋友，我们都在敞开心扉。
英文原文
>> Oh yeah, that was Sean McCann. He's a singer-songwriter from Great Big Sea. He's a Newfoundlander. Straight to the point. He's like, "Are you in a cult?" And cuz I had all these new friends and we were like opening our hearts.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]而且你知道，这不是为了嗨，关键就在这里。在治疗环境中，这与娱乐性使用这些药物非常、非常、非常不同。我有许多六七十岁的朋友来自那个年代，他们会说：“我吃过好多蘑菇，我磕过酸（LSD）。”我说：“不，不，这根本不是那回事。”对我以及我认识的任何人而言，每次完成一次治疗疗程，我都会想：“我再也不要做了。绝对不要再做了。”因为它极其艰辛，剥离和拆解那些层次，找到你内心深处那些从未涉足过、且有充分理由被保护起来的隐秘角落，是一个极其令人筋疲力尽、痛苦且可怕的境地。所以他当时就说：“你认识这些人不过 3 周，你满嘴聊的都是他们？而且你还跟这些治疗师聊。”我当时就说：“肖恩，我知道自己在做什么，我很感动你这么关心我，但这就是我现在所需要的，我正和能够支持我、陪伴我度过这一切的人在一起。是的。”
英文原文
>> And you know, like and it's not getting high and that's the thing. It's like in the therapeutic setting, it is very, very, very different than recreational use of these drugs. I have many friends in their 60s and 70s from that era that are like, "I did tons of mushroom. I dropped acid." I'm like, "No, no, this isn't what that was." It for me and for anyone I know, every time that I did a session, a therapy session, I was like, "I will never do that again. Never, ever." Because it was hard and it unpeeling and unpacking the layers and finding the places in the corners inside of you that you've never visited that have been protected for good reason is a very exhausting and grueling and terrifying place. So, he was just like, "You know, you've known these people for 3 weeks and all you're doing is talking about them? And you're talking about with these therapists." And I was just like, "Sean, I know what I'm doing and I love that you love me so much, but this is right now what I need and I'm with the people that can support me and hold me through it. Yeah."你是一名奥运选手。
英文原文
>> >> You're an Olympian.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.药检曾是你参赛生活的一部分。
英文原文
>> >> So, drug testing was a part of competing.噢，是的。
英文原文
>> >> Oh, yeah.你是许多不同品牌的代言人。你担心过公开自己使用这些物质吗？另外，你担心被评判吗？
英文原文
>> You're a spokesperson for a lot of different brands. Did you worry about disclosing that you use these substances? And also, did you worry about being judged?我不担心被评判。我担心的是在治疗领域使用这些化合物可能会遭到误解。甚至有一次我接受 CBC 的采访，出了一个标题写道，你知道，“奥运选手克拉拉·休斯”，那是一篇关于更年期的报道，上面写着“尝试迷幻药和其他药物”。你知道，那搞得就像我在加拿大的每个街角去磕酸一样。我想说：“这完全不是一码事。”所以，我更担心的是附着在上面的污名。此外，我以前说过，我还会再说一遍：我现在可以去街角的酒水专卖店，合法地买到足够今晚把自己喝死的酒。
英文原文
>> I didn't worry about being judged. I worried about the misinterpretation that could happen with, you know, utilizing these compounds in the therapeutic space. And I even there was an an interview I did with CBC and there was a headline and it said, you know, "Olympian Clara Hughes" and it was about menopause and it says, "Try psychedelic and other drugs." You know, and I'm just like it's like I'm going and dropping acid on every street corner in Canada. I'm like, "It's a little different." And so, that's more what I worried about is the stigma attached to it. And then really, and I've said this, I'll say it again, I can go to the corner liquor store and legally buy enough booze to drink myself to death tonight.从读这本书来看，你当时似乎处于人生的一个节点：你知道必须有所改变了。
英文原文
>> >> From reading the book, it seemed like you were at a point in your life where you knew that something needed to change.噢，是的。
英文原文
>> >> Oh, yeah.你尝试了所有这些不同的方法，因为你在努力通过改变来拯救自己的生命。
英文原文
>> >> And you tried all these different things because you were trying to change to save your life.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.打开“记忆保险库”与揭开童年虐待创伤
你能与我们分享这些，我认为这会帮助很多人。我想稍微转变一下语调，因为我确实想谈谈你在书中披露的内容。这是你的故事，但这也是一个包含你家庭成员的故事。
你当时是如何权衡该分享什么的？
英文原文
>> And the fact that you're sharing it with uh with us, I think it's going to help a lot of people. Um I'm going to shift the tone a little bit because I do want to talk about what you revealed in the book. This is your story, but it's also a story that includes your family members. How did you weigh like what to share?这实际上完全是从我的经历出发。我不能代表我母亲发言，我不能代表我父亲，也不能代表我姐姐发言，但我可以根据自己在那个非常功能失调、非常不安全的家庭系统中的生活经历来说话。我母亲看不到这一点，我也无法改变我母亲的想法。她只能看到她所能看到的。我母亲是从她自己的人生经历来看待事物的。但对我来说，我看待我的家庭一直有着与其他人不同的视角。
这个视角在 30 年前我遇见我丈夫时得到了极大强化。他走进了我的家庭，我的原生家庭，他注意到了很多事情并向我指出来，非常深情地对我说：“我不想卷入那种氛围中。那样是不对的。”他在很多方面让自己脱离那些我和家人总是一头扎进去然后必然爆发的环境与场景。他会问：“克拉拉，难道一直都是这样的吗？”我当时只会说：“哪样？”
比如在我的第二届奥运会时，我把我丈夫送回温尼伯家里。我说：“哦，那会很有趣的。去跟我爸一起看奥运吧。”结果我父亲喝得酩酊大醉，当着彼得（Peter）的面开始对我姐姐进行言语辱骂。彼得完全懵了。他说：“什么情况？我都不知道该怎么办了。我为你姐姐感到非常难受。”事后他问我：“你怎么能把我送到那种环境里去？”而我当时完全是：“你什么意思？有什么问题吗？我家就是那样的啊。”他说：“那样是不正常的。”
而对我来说，分享我的真相，我是抱着这样的希望：能给其他同样背负着无法保护自己、反而在肉体、情感和精神上蚕食自己的秘密生活的人看。我分享出来，是希望让其他人看到，在他们一生背负那些令人羞耻、引发羞耻感、令人恐惧和崩溃的事物时，他们并不孤单。
英文原文
>> It's really speaking from my experience. Um I can't speak for my mom. I can't speak for my dad nor my sister, but I can speak from my experience in my life in that family system that was very dysfunctional. That was very unsafe. Um I you know, my mom can't see that, and I can't change my mom's mind. I can She can only see what she can see. Um my mother sees things from her own life experience. But for me, um I have always seen my family through a different lens than everybody else. And that lens um really grew in strength when I met my husband 30 years ago. And he entered my family, my biological family, and he noticed things and pointed things out to me, and you know, very lovingly, you know, like said, "I'm not going into that. Like that that is not okay." And he removed himself in many ways from environments and and situations that I would just dive into with my family that would always blow up. And he was just like, "Clara, like has it always been this way?" And I was just like, "What way?"Like I I sent my husband home uh to Winnipeg um in my second Olympic Games. I was like, "Oh, it'd be fun. Go watch the Olympics with my dad." And um my dad got loaded drunk and started verbally abusing my sister in front of Peter. And Peter was just like He was like, "What? Like, I didn't know what to do. I felt so bad for your sister." And And afterwards, he was like, "How could you send me into there?" And I literally at that time, I was like, "What do you mean? Like, what's the problem? That's just my family." And he was like, "That's not okay."
And for me, sharing my truth, I do it in the hopes that someone else that lives with secrets that do not keep you safe, that actually eat away at your body physically, emotionally, spiritually, I share it and hoping to show someone else that they're not alone in having carried things their whole life that are so shameful and shame-inducing and and and just horrifying. debilitating
你写到了那个“保险库”？
英文原文
>> >> You write about the vault?嗯，那个保险库就是我发现所有这些记忆和经历被锁起来的地方。它有一套经过几十年建立起来的高级别安保系统，像是挂锁、密码、激光束。就像是没人能闯得进去一样。当我找到它时，我正处于一种非寻常意识状态下，使用的是一种名为 5-MeO-DMT 的药物，它持续大约 40 分钟，是一种能瓦解自我的化合物。我真切地穿越了所有这些事物。最后，我就喊道：“就在这里！”
英文原文
>> Well, the vault is where I discovered where all of these these memories and these experiences were locked away in. And it had a high-level, like, highest-level security system that had been built up over decades, like, padlocks, code passcodes, like, laser beams. It was like, no one was busting into this. And when I found it, it was I was in uh non-ordinary state in a medicine called 5-MeO-DMT, which lasts about 40 minutes and it's a ego-dissolving um compound. And I literally like went through all this stuff. And at the end, I was just like, "It's right here!"[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]我记得我对治疗师说：“它在这里！”我说：“就在这里！我找到了！这就是那个保险库！”然后我说：“钥匙在哪里？”
接着我说：“我们要怎么找到它们？我们必须把它打开。我需要知道的一切都在那个保险库里。我现在就要钥匙。”然后我的治疗师说：“克拉拉，今天还不是时候，但我们会找到那些钥匙的，我们会把它破开。随着时间的推移，所有东西都会从里面出来的。”我们花了漫长的数月和大量的治疗才找到那些钥匙。我们在某个时刻可能还用炸药把它炸开了。
但从里面浮现出来的东西，那些回到我脑海中的记忆幻灯片，牵涉到了我父亲。涉及了我父亲，以及在我还是个婴儿和小女孩时对我进行性虐待的我的主要照料者。
那是……我有好几个月都不敢相信。
以为是自己编造出来的。我怎么可能不记得这些，而现在我却知道了？每次我陷入那种怀疑的状态，我就会进入彻底的失调。我无法入睡。我整夜都在发抖。我会在自己 52 岁的成年躯体里像个孩子一样哭泣和哀号。我心想：这是什么？从我身体里发出来的是什么声音？而每次我试图否认，我的整个身体就会说：“别再自欺欺人了。你不能再无视这个真相。”
而这也唤醒了我现在知道自己拥有的那个小小的内在小孩。我过去曾是那些嘲笑谈论“内在小孩”的人之一。现在我每天早上都和我的内在小孩待在一起。
英文原文
>> And I remember to my therapist, I was like, "It's here!" I was like, "It's right here! I found it! It's the vault!" And then I was like, "Where are the keys?"And then I said, "How are we going to find them? We need to open it up. Everything I need to know is in that vault. I need the keys now. And then my therapist was like, Clara, today's not the day, but we're going to find those keys and we're going to bust it open. And in time everything is going to come out of there. And it took many, many months and tons of therapy to find those keys. We might have like blown it open with some dynamite at one point.
But what came out of there and the knowing and the slideshow of memories that came back to me involved my dad. And they involved my dad and my primary caregiver who sexually abused me when I was a baby and a little girl. And it was
I went through many months of not believing of thinking I was making this up. How can I not remember this and now I know it? And every time I would go in that place of disbelief, I would go into complete dysregulation. I wouldn't be able to sleep. I would be shaking all night. I would be crying and whining like a child in my adult 52-year-old body. I'd just be like, what is I like what is the sound that's coming out of me? And every time I went into denial, my whole body would say, no more. Like you are not going to ignore this truth.
And what that also was was that like little inner child that I now know I have. I used to be one of those people that made fun of people that talked about their inner child. Now I hang out with mine every morning.
[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]这也是为什么我要冥想 10 到 15 分钟，就是为了建立那种联结，确保她知道自己是安全的、被爱的、被包容的，她可以信任我，并以此加强这种联结。
所以，打开那个保险库，让我得以与这个冻结在时间里的美丽小女孩产生联结，这个冻结在时间、恐惧和惊骇中的美丽小婴儿。
打开那个保险库，帮助我清楚地理解了为什么我一生都在恐惧和羞耻中生活、工作，并以此为动力。为什么我总觉得自己永远不够好、永远不够优秀，总必须去赢得更多、变得更多、做得更多——因为我生活的那个起点，一个小孩子在经历了那样的事情之后，又该如何成长？
英文原文
>> And that's why I meditate for 10 or 15 minutes is to make that connection and make sure that she knows she's safe and she's loved and she's held and that she can trust me and strengthen that bond. And so it really opening up that vault allowed me to connect with this beautiful little girl that was frozen in time, this beautiful little baby that was frozen in time and terror and fear.And opening up that vault helped me understand clearly why I lived and worked and was fueled from the place of fear and shame my whole life. Why I felt like I was never enough and never good enough and always had to win more, be more, do more because I was living from a place that, you know, how can a child grow from that when things have been done to them in that way?
谢谢你与我们分享这些。对于发生在你身上的事，我深表遗憾。当你意识到这是埋藏在你体内的事情，而你过去一直在竭尽全力——你身体里的一切都在推开它。
英文原文
>> >> Thank you for sharing that with us. Um I am so sorry that happened to you. When you realized that this was a thing that was in your body and you were doing everything, like everyMhm.
everything in your body was pushing it.
是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.你谈到了与你父亲的照片，你在意识到这一切意味着什么之后，坐在他身旁握着他的手。
英文原文
>> >> You talked about pictures with your father, how you're like sitting next to him, holding his hand after you came to the realization of what all that meant.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.你觉得自己现在对自己有更深一点的理解了吗？
英文原文
>> >> Do you feel like you understand yourself a bit better?噢，完全理解了。从根本上发生改变的还有我在内心对待自己的那种虐待式姿态。那个保护我的部分、那个内在批评者，就像消防员一样，就像内部家庭系统（Internal Family Systems, IFS）中的所有部分。我和一位非常出色的心理学家合作，她运用这种疗法，帮助我认识了自己所有的内在部分。它们是推动我、督促我拿到奥运金牌、所有那些奥运奖牌以及我所取得的一切成功的部分。所以，这其中有许多美好之处，我也看到了这一点。但我明白了自己过去为什么是那个样子，而且从我当下的亲身经历中我也清楚地知道：疗愈是可能的。从深层创伤、从受创伤驱使、受伤口驱使的生活中实现转化——从你甚至不知道其存在的伤口中生活——围着那个伤口去疗愈和成长，靠着这种成长生活，去保护那个伤口、照料那个伤口并呵护它，这是完全可能的。因为那就像疤痕组织，当你不小心撞到尖锐物体时它依然会疼。所以，去消化这些并在这个过程中找到内心的平静，确实是一段非常漫长的过程，但那份平静植根于安全感、信任和爱。是的。
英文原文
>> Oh, fully. You know what fundamentally has changed as well is that, you know, abusive stance that I had inside of myself towards myself. You know, that part of me that protected me, you know, that inner critic, like the the firefighter, like all of the internal family systems. I worked with an amazing psychologist who practices that modality and she helped me get to know all my parts. They're the parts that drove me and pushed me to Olympic gold medal, you know, all the Olympic medals, all the success I had. So, there's a lot of beauty in there there and I also see that, but I know why I was the way I was and I also know clearly from my own lived experience now that healing is possible, that it's like transformation from deep trauma and a trauma-driven, wound-driven life, living literally from the wound that you may not even know that it's there. It is possible to heal and grow around that wound and to live from that growth and to protect that wound, intend that wound and care for it because it is scar tissue that hurts when you like bang it onto something sharp. And so it really has been a very long process of of of processing this and finding that peace inside of myself, but that peace is rooted in safety, trust, and love. Yeah.家庭关系的边界与接纳
你有没有告诉你母亲和姐姐，你把这些内容写进了书里？
英文原文
>> >> Did you tell your mom and your sister that you were including this in the book?我问过我母亲。有一天下午，我问她：“在我们小时候，有人对我和姐姐做过什么吗？”她当时立刻回答：“你父亲没有对你们做过任何事。”
我曾试着和她谈论其中的许多事情，但她就是无法触及那些话题，而我对母亲抱有极大的同情。在这个过程中，很大一部分也是为了更好地看清并理解我家庭的功能失调，最重要的是理解我在其中扮演的角色；意识到我大半辈子都在扮演母亲的“母亲”，作为一个习惯性取悦他人的人——现在正在康复中——意识到我是如何在为周围的一切和每个人付出精力并陷入掌控的幻觉中。
这些是我能够在自己身上去下功夫的事。因此，对母亲的执念放手，让我母亲有机会做我的母亲；而我也逐渐意识到，她无法以我所需要的方式来做母亲，这也没关系。她依然在尽自己最大的努力，她依然爱我。我母亲会烘焙，并把她烤的糕点送给我，作为表达爱的方式。
英文原文
>> I asked my mom I you know one afternoon and I asked her, you know, did anybody do anything to me and my sister when we were little and without you know she immediately responded, um, your father didn't do anything to you girls. And I tried to talk to her about many of these things and she just can't go there, you know, and I have a lot of compassion for my mom. Um, a big part of this process was as well seeing and understanding better the dysfunction of my family and understanding most importantly the role that I played in it and realizing that I've mothered my mom most of my life and being a chronic people-pleaser, now a recovering one realizing how I was putting my energy out and in that illusion of control for everything and everyone around me. Um, those are things that I was able to work on on myself and so letting my mom go allowed my mom to have the chance to be my mom and I've come to realize that she just can't in the way that I need and that's okay. And she's still doing her best and she still loves me. My mom bakes and gives, you know, her baked goods as a way of showing her love.回到更年期的话题。
英文原文
>> >> Going back to menopause是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.在书的结尾处你写道：“我想我很感激更年期把我搞得一团糟，因为它也彻底击碎了我、向我敞开了内在。”你能多谈谈这一点吗？
英文原文
>> towards the end of the book you write, I guess I'm grateful that menopause effed me up because it also cracked me open. Can you tell me more about that?是的。如果没有更年期，我觉得我不会经历那场完美的风暴。也许我可能会因为摔坏的膝盖而动弹不得，但我认为自己不会有动力和绝望去真正走向内在。
英文原文
>> Yeah, without menopause, I don't think I would have had that perfect storm. Maybe I would have been immobilized with my messed up knee, but I don't think I would have had the impetus and the desperation to actually go inward.走向内在。
英文原文
>> >> to go inwards.是的。是的，那种勇气。如果没有发生这一切，你知道，有许多研究表明，自体免疫性疾病、乳腺癌等许多病症，都是女性未表达的愤怒所致，而这些情绪就藏在我的身体里。相信我，我现在的样子表现得好像我已经处理完了这一切，我找到了爱、信任和安全感，但我当时其实狂怒不已。
我释放了太多东西，那不仅仅是通过声带喊出来的，它是通过颤抖、通过身体动作，彻底把所有这些都宣泄出我的体外。所以，是的，我很感激更年期把我搞得一团糟，彻底颠覆了我的世界，让我踏上了这条疗愈之路；它也让我体会到了那么多女性走进医生诊室时的感受。它让我意识到：我们需要做得更好。我现在觉得与女性之间的联结紧密得多了。我们占了人口的 50%，如果我们有幸活到这个美好的人生阶段，我们都是在一起面对这一切、共同经历这一切。对于在场的以及世界上的 X 世代（Gen Xers），我觉得我们会带来一些改变，因为我们反正一直以来都得靠自己去弄懂所有事情，对吧？所以我们不妨把这事也做成。
英文原文
>> Yeah. Yeah, the courage. Um and had that not happened, you know, there's so many studies that show things like autoimmune diseases, breast cancer, many of these things are unexpressed rage in women, and this was living inside of me. And believe me, like I kind of act like like I processed this, I found love, trust, I found safety. I'm like, no, I raged. Like I let so much out, and it just didn't come by way of my vocal cords, it came by way of shaking, it came by way of movement, of just letting all of this out of my body. And um and so, yeah, I'm grateful that menopause effed me up and turned my world upside down and um allowed me to set out on this healing path and also allowed me to experience, I think, what so many women experience going into their doctors' offices. And allowed me to like like realize like we need to do so much better, and I feel so much more connected to women now. Like we are 50% of the population, and if we're so fortunate to age into this beautiful season in life, we're all going through this together, experiencing this together. And the Gen Xers in this room and in this world, I feel like we're going to shake things up because we don't We've always had to figure everything out for ourselves anyway, right? So, we might as well do it.你三年级就开始吸烟。这并不是要羞辱你。
英文原文
>> >> So, you started to smoke in grade three. This is not to shame you.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]这么说是有原因的。你三年级开始吸烟，也是在那时你开始在商店行窃。你在 12 岁开始饮酒。
英文原文
>> There's a reason for this. You started to smoke in grade three, and that's also when you started to shoplift. You You began drinking at 12.应对机制。
英文原文
>> >> Coping mechanism.[笑声] 你在 12 岁开始饮酒。到 13 岁时你开始抽大麻，一直在喝酒并参加派对。
英文原文
>> [laughter] You began drinking at 12. By 13 you were smoking weed and you were drinking all the time and partying.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.但你也载入了史册，成为世界上唯一一位在夏季和冬季奥运会上都获得多枚奖牌的运动员。在众多其他成就之上，这是一项难以置信的成就。在你最平静的时刻，当你回顾一生，在面对并征服了这一切之后，你在想些什么？
英文原文
>> But you were also ingrained in history as the only athlete in the world to win multiple medals of both the summer and winter Olympic Games. An incredible accomplishment on top of so many others. In your quietest moments when you look back on your life, what do you think about in all of that that you faced and conquered?那些我曾经背负、自己却浑然不知的东西。
我没有放弃去寻找活在内心深处、并且一直都在那里的真正的自我微光。那团从未熄灭的小火苗，它只需要一点氧气和煽动风势便能再次燃烧。那股生命力。我没有放弃它。这是我最引以为傲的事。
我找到了前行的道路，我找到了善待自己的方式，而不是在余生中一味强硬逼迫。这是对我而言意义最重大的事情，因为与自我的联结会泛起涟漪，扩散到每一段人际关系、每一次互动、生活中的每一次体验中。我终于能够真正地活在当下，而这正是我最感激的事情。
英文原文
>> Oh. The things that I carried that I didn't know were there. That I didn't give up on finding that true little spark of self that lived inside of me and has been there all along. That little ember that never went out, that just needed some oxygen and some fanning of the flames to ignite again. That life force. That I didn't give up on that. That's the thing I'm most proud of.That I found a way forward and that I found the way to be gentle with myself instead of just pushing through for the rest of my life. That is the thing that means the most to me because that connection with self ripples out into every relationship, into every interaction, into every experience in life. I get to actually be here now and that is what I'm most grateful for.
朗读《学会呼吸》片段与现场问答
你将从书中朗读一段内容。接着我们将进入提问环节，之后克拉拉可能会和大家自拍，并为你个性化签名图书。大家移步到那面黑墙即可。请开始吧，克拉拉。
英文原文
>> >> You're going to read something from your book. We're going to get into questions and then afterwards Clara will be taking selfies maybe and can personalize your your book. And so you just go over to that black wall. Go ahead, Clara.好的。我真该带上老花镜的。所以我得把手臂伸直了。[笑声] 岁月不饶人，对吧？
我再也无法飞奔着跑上山峰，但我可以一步一步走向完整，拾起在艰难岁月中遗落的自己碎片。
在我人生最低谷时，步道让我活了下来。如今，我的人生本身已成为那条步道。
我开始感受到一种不依赖于结果或奖赏的希望感。我开始相信诗人 E. E. 卡明斯（E. E. Cummings），他曾写下著名的诗句：“你的头颅是一座住满鸣禽的鲜活森林。”
他写下了那首名为《53》的诗。这很有趣，因为这本书正是在我来到地球上的第 53 个年头完成的。
愿我的心永远向小鸟敞开，它们是生命的秘密。无论它们唱些什么，都胜过懂得万事万物。如果人们听不到它们的声音，那人们便已老去。当然，在我的脑海中，我自然而然地把诗句中的“男人们”换成了“人们”。
我曾凝视群山，感受它们的呼吸。我曾抚摸树木，看它们翩翩起舞。我曾倾听河流，听见它的呼唤。我曾躺在星毯之下，沐浴在月光之中。大自然将永远对我歌唱，而我也会歌唱回应。我的一生经历过许多新的起点，但这一个感觉尤为不同。我除了成为我自己，不再企图成为任何东西。这便是我启程之处。
谢谢大家。
英文原文
>> Yeah. I should have brought my glasses. So I'm going to like stretch my arms. [laughter] Age, right?I can't run up a mountain anymore, but I can walk step by step toward wholeness, picking up the bits of myself that were lost in harder times.
At my lowest point, the trail kept me alive. Now, my life has become the trail.
I'm beginning to feel a sense of hopefulness that's not dependent on an outcome or a prize. I'm beginning to believe the poet E. E. Cummings, who famously wrote, "Your head is a living forest full of songbirds."
And wrote the poem called 53. And it's interesting cuz this book was completed in my 53rd year on Earth.
May my heart always be open to little birds who are the secrets of living. Whatever they sing is better than to know. And if men should not hear them, men are old. Of course, in my head, I changed men to people, of course.
I've gazed at the mountains and felt them breathing. I've touched the trees and seen them dancing. I've listened to the river and heard it calling. I've lain under blankets of stars and bathed in the glow of the moon. Nature will always sing to me, and I will sing back. My life has had many new beginnings, but this one feels different. I'm not becoming anything but me. This is where I begin.
Thank you.
[掌声]
英文原文
>> [applause]谢谢。
英文原文
>> >> Thanks.[掌声]
英文原文
>> [applause]谢谢。
那么……
英文原文
>> Thanks.So,
我正好相反。我本来应该戴渐进多焦点眼镜的。
英文原文
>> >> I have the opposite. I'm supposed to have progressives.好的。
英文原文
>> >> Okay.但我拒绝。
英文原文
>> >> But I refuse.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]我拒绝，所以我戴着眼镜看不清，我得摘掉眼镜。这里有一个来自查德（Chad）的问题，谢谢大家提出的所有问题。查德写道：我家里有一个年轻的运动员。
英文原文
>> I refuse, so I can't see with I have to take off my glasses. Um there's a question from Chad, and this question is and thank you for all the questions. Uh Chad writes, I have a young athlete at home.是的。
英文原文
>> >> Yeah.当然，人们不应该惩罚或损害自己的身体，但你如何将这一点与高水平竞技体育中切切实实的痛苦与挑战调和起来？
英文原文
>> Of course, folks shouldn't punish or damage their bodies, but how do you reconcile that with the very real pain and challenge of elite sports?最后一部分是什么？
英文原文
>> >> What's the last What was the last part?你如何将这一点与高水平竞技体育中切切实实的痛苦与挑战调和起来？
英文原文
>> >> Um how do you reconcile that with the real the very real pain and challenge of elite sports?噢，是的。这有点像，我也把它比作疗愈。就像，你可以在自己狭小的封闭孤岛里疗愈，然后你可以活在自己的培养皿里，因为一切都必须是安全的，没有人能激惹你，你也不能失调。但实际上你必须拥有一种代表着成长、力量和韧性的疗愈能力，并且你必须把它带入这个世界中。你必须去检验它。你必须在与他人的关系中去检验它。而在体育运动中，你必须付出极大的努力，这是毫无捷径的。
但当我回顾自己的运动生涯时，看到我过度训练到了何种程度、我是如何让自己营养不良、我是如何真正地惩罚自己；甚至在休息日，我也无法在那天休息，因为不训练会让我感到非常内疚和懒惰。
从事体育运动有不同的方式。现在更加注重科学，但对于孩子们来说，它必须是有趣的。它不能成为这种专业化的、你知道，把你的孩子孤立限制在单一运动里的东西。孩子们应该尝试很多不同的事情。我认为对于拥有长久职业生涯的运动员来说，体育的本质在于他们在所做的事情中确实体验到了某种乐趣和玩耍，并对其怀有热爱。除了我分享的一切之外，我也曾深爱我的运动项目。我第一次看到速度滑冰时，它改变了我的生活。与那种动作的联结——那种我训练自己的身体使之流淌穿过我自身的动作。但孩子们需要玩耍。孩子们需要开心。
同时，要密切注意你把孩子送到了谁的手里，注意是什么样的教练、他们处于什么样的环境中。它是充满毒性的吗？是有支持性的吗？逼迫他们逼得够吗？逼迫他们的方式对吗？是否有社群氛围？是否有支持？是否有玩耍？是否有乐趣？你的孩子回家时带着怎样的心理状态？密切注意是谁在引导这一切。虽然这项事业没有捷径，但毫无疑问，是可以用更健康的方式去实现的。
英文原文
>> Oh, yeah. It's kind of like, I don't know. I I liken it as well to healing. It's like, you know, you can heal in your little silo, and then you can live in your Peachtree dish because everything needs to be safe and no one needs to like you can't be triggered and you you can't, you know, be deregulated. It's like you actually have to take a healing capacity that is is growth, is strength, is resilience, and you have to bring it out into the world. You have to test it. You have to test it in relationship with other people. And with sport, it's like there's no like you have to work your butt off.And there's no shortcut to that. But when I look back at my own athletic career, at how much I overtrained, how I undernourished myself, how I truly punished myself, how I couldn't, even when I had a rest day, I couldn't rest on that day because I would feel so guilty and lazy because I wasn't training.
There are different ways to go about sport. Um it's much more science-oriented, but for kids, it needs to be fun. It needs to not be this professional, you know, this professional thing that is, you know, your child's siloed into one sport. Like kids should do many things. And the essence of sport, I think for athletes that have longevity, is they actually have some kind of fun and play in what they do and have a love for it. And as well as everything I've shared, I also had a love for my sports. The first time I saw speed skating, it changed my life. The connection to that movement, that movement that I trained my body to allow to happen through me. But kids need to play. Kids need to have fun.
Also, pay attention to who you're sending your kids to, what coaches, what environment they're in. Is it toxic? Is it supportive? Does it push them enough? Does it push them in the right way? Is there community? Is there like is there support? Is there play? Is there fun? Like, what is the dynamic that your kids coming home with? And pay close attention to who is directing that. But, there's no shortcuts for it, but it can be done in healthier ways, for
我认为在惩罚与呵护之间也存在着一种平衡，因为我的孩子们踢足球和打篮球，我总是告诉他们：你必须尊重和爱护你的身体。
英文原文
>> >> I think that also there's a balance between punishing your cuz my kids play soccer and basketball, and I always tell them that your body you have to also honor your body.当然。
英文原文
>> >> Absolutely.因为正是身体在做着让你快乐的事情，所以你必须照顾它、滋养它，在需要时让它休息，对吧？
英文原文
>> >> Cuz it's the thing that's doing the thing that makes you happy, so you have to take care of it, feed it, rest it when you need to, right?是的，你可以竭尽全力去拼搏磨砺，而且这完全可以以一种非破坏性、不走向毁灭之路的方式来完成。所以，重要的不是你在做什么，而是你为什么要做，以及背后是什么在驱动着你。我认为关注这一点至关重要。
英文原文
>> Yeah, and you can like work your butt off and like grind it out, and and it can be done in a way that isn't destructive and isn't a path of destruction, you know? So, not the what you're doing, but the why you're doing it and what's driving it. I think it's important to pay attention to.我们有一个来自安妮（Anne）的问题。安妮写道：“你能跟我们谈谈在这个历程中，你是如何与丈夫沟通的，以及你和他分享了什么吗？对于如何支持正在经历更年期的女性，你对伴侣们有什么建议？”
英文原文
>> Uh we have a question from Anne. Anne writes, "Can you tell us a bit about how and what you've shared with your husband on this journey? What are your recommendations for partners on how to support women experiencing menopause?"是的，跟我丈夫在一起时，我当时情绪极度失调，真的是在狂怒。我简直……有太多的女性跟我谈起过这个，分享过她们自己的经历：就是我恨自己恨到了极点，以至于我无法成为一个平静理智的人；我对我丈夫发怒，但其实我是在对自己发怒；我无法自控，完全失控了。在经历更年期的过程中，这确实对我们的关系产生了绝对具有破坏性的影响。我不知道该如何与我丈夫沟通，因为我甚至不知道发生了什么。而他只会封闭自己，变得更加沉默，更频繁地离开家。
我真希望我们当时能多谈一谈。某天下午我们开车行驶在温哥华岛上，加拿大广播公司电台（CBC Radio）正好在播一个热线互动节目，内容正是关于更年期、围绝经期和女性健康。一个接一个的女性打电话进去，心烦意乱、泣不成声，处于崩溃的边缘，分享她们的经历：“去哪里能找到帮助？支持究竟在哪里？我觉得自己要疯了。”就在那一刻，彼得问：“这就是你一直在经历的事情吗？”我说：“是的！”
英文原文
>> Yeah, yeah, you know, with my husband, um I was just so emotionally disregulated, like truly raging. Like, I would just like I literally and I'm I so many women have talked to me about this and shared their own experience of just like I just can't I just like hate myself so much that I I can't not be this calm person and this rational person, and I'm raging on my husband, but I'm raging on me, and I can't I'm out of control, and and literally through this experience in menopause, it was having an absolutely detrimental effect on our relationship. I didn't know how to communicate with my husband cuz I didn't know what was going on. And he just shut down and got more quiet and would leave the house more. Um I wish that we could have had more conversations. We were driving on Vancouver Island one afternoon and there was a call-in show on CBC Radio and it was on menopause, perimenopause, women's health. And woman after woman after woman was calling, you know, distraught and crying and and just at the end of their rope, sharing their experience of just where is the help? Where is the support? I feel like I'm losing my mind. And in that moment Peter was like, "Is this what you've been going through?" And I'm like, "Yes!"[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]所以，只要你能找到开启对话、自我学习和去理解的方式都可以。对在座的男士而言，了解身边的女性正在经历什么、去支持生活中的所有女性，这同样重要，因为我们都在共同面对这一切。我给我丈夫发过 Instagram 视频。噢，你发过？
英文原文
>> So, it's like, you know, any way that you can find a way of opening up the conversation, of educating yourself, of understanding. For men in the room, like it's equally as important for you to support all of the women in this world in your life to know what they're going through because we're all in it together. I sent my husband Instagram videos. Oh, you did?我发过。
英文原文
>> >> I did.很聪明。
英文原文
>> >> Smart.因为有很多男性正在制作关于更年期的内容。
英文原文
>> >> Because there's a lot of guys who are creating menopause content.确实。
英文原文
>> >> Right.所以我会说：“就是这样的。如果我们吵架了，我就把视频发给他，因为你能道歉多少次呢？”
英文原文
>> >> And uh so I'm like, "This is how If we get into an argument, I'll send him the video cuz how many times can you apologize?"我太喜欢这个办法了。[笑声] 太棒了。
英文原文
>> >> I love it. [laughter] I love it. I love it.我们有一个来自塞莱斯特（Celeste）的问题。他们问：“既然你经历了这些成长时刻，今后你将如何面对耐力运动？”
英文原文
>> >> Um we have a question from Celeste. Uh they ask, "Now that you've had these moments of growth, how will you go forward with endurance sports?"面对耐力运动？
英文原文
>> >> With endurance sports?是的。你将如何走下去？
英文原文
>> >> Yes. How do you go forward?噢，是的。我不再会从加拿大徒步走到墨西哥了。
英文原文
>> >> Oh, yeah. Um I will no longer hike from Canada to Mexico.[笑声]
英文原文
>> [laughter]因为我已经走过了。
不，但坦白讲，我……
英文原文
>> Cuz I've done it.No, but I honestly like I
你太强悍了。
英文原文
>> >> You're so badass.噢，天哪。我热爱徒步。我非常热爱。但现在不同了，我不再是因为“必须走”而徒步，而是因为“我想走”而徒步。然后我会回到某些步道，重新走一遍，如果是较短的行程，走 6 天或 7 天。我会看到我曾经到达过的地方。我会想：“哇，你知道，我无法在一天之内走到我以前露营的地方了。”在所有这些步道上，我都记得自己在哪里扎营。我现在要走上一天半才能到那里，我会想：“哇，我曾经那么强壮过。那太不可思议了。”我对当年的那个人肃然起敬，而我现在不再需要赶往任何地方。我不需要为了开始另一条步道而必须走到这条步道的终点。我只是在每一步之中享受过程，全身心沉浸在与这片美丽自然世界的联结中——与地域、空间、自我相联结，与鸣禽、雄鹰翱翔、林间清风、树枝拂过相伴，仅仅是感觉自己是这个广袤美丽世界的一部分。这就是耐力运动如今对我的意义。它意味着联结。
英文原文
>> Oh, man. I love hiking. I love it. But now it's just like I don't hike cuz I need to. I hike cuz I want to. And then I go back to some trails and I hike them over if it's, you know, a shorter trip for me, 6 days or 7 days. And I'll see where I used to get to. I'll be like, "Wow, you know, like I won't get to it in the same day where I camped." I always remember where I camp on all these trails. I'll get there like a day and a half later and I'll be like, "Wow, I used to be that strong. That's amazing." And I just like like I'm in awe of that person and I no longer need to get anywhere. I don't need to get to the end of the trail to start another one. I just am in every step of the way, enjoying it and embracing the experience of connecting with this beautiful natural world, with place, space, self, with songbirds, with animal with eagles soaring, with the wind in the trees, with you know, being brushed by the bows of the trees and the bows of the trees and just feeling like I'm a part of this big beautiful world. That's what endurance sport is for me now. It's connection.当你谈起这些时，你的脸上浮现出了一片宁静的神情。
英文原文
>> >> You just had like a moment of peace over your face when you were talking about it.那是我在生命中安全、快乐、美丽、喜悦和幸福的归宿。
英文原文
>> >> It's my It's my my safe, happy, beautiful, joyous, blissful place in life.我们有来自艾玛（Emma）的问题。艾玛问：“面对今天走上与你当年相同毁灭之路的年轻女性，你会对她说些什么？”
英文原文
>> >> We have a question from Emma. Emma asks, "What would you say to a young woman today that you see taking the same path of destruction that you did?"噢，我会问：“你的心感觉怎么样？”
你的心感觉怎么样？
我在迷幻药邪教里认识的一位朋友——抱歉，开个玩笑。[笑声] 她总是这样问我：“克拉拉，你的心感觉怎么样？”这让我想到我们平时多么频繁地问“你好吗？”。你在星巴克，咖啡师问：“你好吗？你好吗？很好，很好。是啊。噢，是的，我挺好。我很好。是的。”我们甚至不用去过脑子思考回答，只会敷衍一句“还行”。而当我第一次被问及“你的心感觉怎么样”时，我觉得自己整个人都融化了。我感到如此被看见，而那正是在我的心备受煎熬的时刻。我当时心想：“从来没有人这样问过我。”所以我会问那个人：“你的心感觉怎么样？”
我会倾注所有的时间去倾听，去感受她们想要分享的内容，因为那正是一个起点：学会如何倾听你的心，意识到你的身体里有一颗心，意识到你拥有连着头颅的不可思议的身体——你的头脑可能与它脱节了，从而导致了你用当下的方式去行事。但仅仅是为了帮助某个人被真正看见，我会问她们：你的心感觉怎么样？
英文原文
>> Oh, I would say, "How is your heart?" How is your heart? Um, a friend of mine that I met in this cult of psychedelics. Sorry, just [laughter] kidding. She always asked me that, "Clara, how is your heart?" And it made me think of how often we ask, "How are you?" You know, you're at Starbucks, the barista, "How are you? How are you? Good, good. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm fine. I'm well. Yeah." And we don't even think about our response. We just give a okay. And when I was asked the first time, "How is your heart?" I was just like I felt like I melted. I felt so seen and I it was in a moment when my heart was hurting. And I was just like, "No one's ever asked me that." And I would ask that person, "How is your heart?"And I would take all the time in the world to listen or to feel what they had to share because that's the start is learning how to listen to your heart, learning that you have a heart in your body and you have this incredible body that's attached to your head that's probably disconnected that's creating this thing that way you're way you're doing what you're doing. But just to help someone be seen, I would ask them how is your heart?
这正好引出了下一个问题。这个问题来自阿曼达（Amanda）。阿曼达问：公开谈论这些如此脆弱敏感的时刻，你会感到害怕吗？如果会，你是如何克服那些迟疑的？
英文原文
>> >> Well, that leads to the next question. This question is from Amanda. Amanda asks, are you ever afraid to speak openly about such tender moments? If so, how do you overcome those hesitations?是的，我会害怕。今晚我觉得自己状态足够好，可以谈谈它。而当我无法开口时，我就不说。我就会说：“我不能谈。现在这太艰难了。”
三天前，我度过了一个睡眠非常糟糕的夜晚。我睡着了，但感觉就像睁着眼睛睡了一整夜，因为我整晚都在做噩梦。很多事情重新浮现，因为我正在谈论并且被问到很多相关的事情。那个夜晚让我在第二天有些情绪失调，所以我必须对自己更温和一些。在那种状态下我是无法回答这个问题的。所以这完全取决于倾听我的身体、我的系统和我的能量，并且明白拒绝是可以的——因为我把小时候被剥夺的说“不”的权利重新找了回来，现在我知道我可以拒绝。我拥有这种自主权。
英文原文
>> Yeah, I am. I am. Tonight is a night that I felt, you know, I felt good enough to talk about it. And when I can't, I don't. I just say I I can't. This is too hard right now.Three days ago I had like a night of somewhat in I did I slept, but I felt like I slept with my eyes open. I felt like I cuz I had nightmares all night. I had a lot of things that came back to me because of many things I'm talking about and being asked about. And I had a night that left me a little disregulated the next day and so I had to go easier. I wouldn't have been able to answer that question. And so it's really listening to my body and my system and my energy and knowing that it's okay to say no because I got my no back that was taken away from me when I was really little and now I know I can say no. I have that agency.
观众席里也有人想到了同样的问题。苏（Sue）说：我猜想当你在做这些巡回演讲时，会遇到许多人向你倾诉他们的故事。在接纳这些故事时，你如何找到平衡或建立界限？
英文原文
>> >> Well, someone in the audience is also thinking about that same question. Sue says, I imagine when you go on these speaking tours, you're met with people sharing their stories with you. How do you find balance or establish boundaries when receiving these stories?我的一位同样在那个圈子里结识的美好朋友，她的名字……[笑声] 她名叫格蕾丝（Grace）。她是澳大利亚人，是一位极好的朋友，从事颅骶疗法（craniosacral therapy）和其他疗法。
我的朋友格蕾丝不久前告诉我，她说：“克拉拉，关怀（caring）和背负（carrying）之间是有区别的。”
她说你可以去关怀，但不要替人背负。当人们向你倾诉时，对我而言，见证一个人的真实真相是一个如此美好、神圣的地方。真诚地尝试让对方感到被看见、被听见、被相信——进行非常深层的倾听，在那个毫无评判的空间中全然临在，让对方能感受到他们是被相信的。
我不需要把那份重担带走，而且我也从未遇到过期望我替他们背负重担的人。所以关怀不同于背负，我是关怀的实践者——虽然还非常业余。而关怀，我可以毫无保留地充沛给予。
英文原文
>> A beautiful friend of mine also in the cult, her name [laughter] her name is Grace. She's Australian and she's a beautiful friend. She's a practitioner of craniosacral therapy and other modalities.And my friend Grace told me a while ago, she said, Clara, there's a difference between caring and carrying. She said you can care but not carry. And when people share with you, it's like for me it's such a beautiful sacred place of witnessing someone's truth. And really like I at least attempting to allow someone to be seen and heard and believed. Like really really deep listening, being present in that non-judgmental space where someone can feel that they are believed.
I don't have to carry that away and that person I've never met someone who expected me to carry their burden for them. So caring is different than carrying and so I am a practitioner, very amateur one, of caring. And that I can give in abundance.
在大家有机会和你打招呼之前，我们还有最后两个问题。你刚才其实已经算回答了这个问题，但我还是想问一下。皮特（Pete）问：男士在人生的这个阶段以及其他时期，如何能更好地支持女性？
英文原文
>> >> Well, we have two more questions before everybody gets a chance to say hi to you. Um you kind of answered this question, but I just wanted to ask it anyway. Pete asks, how can men support women better in this season of life and others?耐心。[笑声] 还有，[吸气] 走出家门。好的，以下是你们可以如何支持女性。好的，我要说出来了，我直说了，因为我和我的所有女性朋友都这么说：我们的生活伴侣，如果你有一个男性伴侣，男人们随着年纪变大会发展成一种不想再离开家门的状态。[笑声]
而且这之间是有区别的：比如我经常因为工作离家，当我回到家时，我丈夫就在那里。他说：“哦，是啊，你出门放松了一段时间。”我说：“是啊，我是出去了，但你人还一直在家里呆着。”[笑声]
也许你想去划皮划艇，他说：“哦，你出门的时候我已经去划过了。”我会说：“你为什么不在我在家的时候去划呢，这样我就能有一整天独自呆在家里？”女性需要独自在家的时间。这非常重要。男人可以呆在家里做自己的事情，而且完全不会注意到屋里还有另一个人；而女性能注意到一切动静。[笑声]
这确实是你可以坦诚支持伴侣的一种方式；此外，去自我学习，去了解激素的变化、症状，以及处于人生这个阶段的女性在心智、身体和精神上所发生的一切。你将能更好地以最佳方式给予她支持。
英文原文
>> Yeah, patience. [laughter] Also, [gasps] um get out of the house. Okay, here's how you can support women. Okay, I'm going to say it. I'm just going to say it cuz all of my girlfriends and I say this. Our partners in life, our male partners in life, if you're with a male partner, um you men grow into this place where you don't like to leave home anymore. [laughter] And and there's a difference between like like I leave a lot often for work and then I come home and my husband's there. And he's like, "Oh, yeah, like you had time away." And I'm like, "Yeah, I did. And you're still here." [laughter] Maybe you want to go on a kayak trip. And he's like, "Oh, I went on one when you were away." And I'm like, "Why don't you go on one when I'm home so I can have a day at home alone?" Women need time at home alone. It's really important. Men are able to be at home doing their own thing and they don't really notice that there's someone else in the house. Women notice everything. [laughter]That is one way that you can honestly support your partner and also educate yourself. Learn about the hormonal changes and the symptoms and what happens in a woman's mind, body, and spirit in this season of life. You will be better able to support her in the best way.
还要确保我们肚子有食物，以及在需要时得到休息。
英文原文
>> >> And make sure we have food in our stomach and rest when we need it.还有薯片。因为当你去拿薯片，发现他全吃光了而且没有及时补货时，[笑声] 那对处于那个阶段的女性而言可真是场灾难。[笑声]
英文原文
>> chips because when you go to get that one and you've eaten them all and you haven't replenished the stock, [laughter] that's a really bad thing for a woman in that season of life. [laughter]非常感谢你，克拉拉。也谢谢大家。
英文原文
>> >> Thank you very much, Clara. And thank you all.谢谢。
英文原文
>> >> Thank you.[掌声]
英文原文
>> [applause]这里是《Mistreated》。感谢收听。感谢克拉拉·休斯在我们的对话中如此坦诚倾注。[音乐]
如果您需要支持，我们在节目说明中提供了相关资源。您可以在任何下载播客的地方关注我们的节目，以便在新剧集上线时收到通知。
您可以给我发邮件，邮箱是 mistreated@tvo.org。我们阅读每一封来信，您也可以在社交媒体上联系我。
我想分享一条关于我们调查“寻求埃勒斯-当洛斯综合征（EDS）医疗照护”的评论。这条评论来自 YouTube：“视频中没有提及症状的严重程度。我希望视频能讲到这一点，这样人们才能意识到紧迫性。面对得不到治疗而恶化的严重症状，简直令人极度恐慌。这种痛苦和照护的缺失是不人道的。感谢你们谈论这件事并努力引起关注。”
非常感谢你们发来的所有电子邮件和评论。我们未能一一回复，但我们非常感激大家抽出时间告诉我们这期节目对你们产生的影响。
本周节目的制作人是尚塔尔·达尔马（Chantal Darmar）和我，剪辑师是科林·基什（Colin Kish）。统筹制作人是马修·阿玛拉（Matthew Amara）。数字短片由埃德温·詹森（Edwin Jansen）制作，动态图形设计师是阿尤什·马丹·谢德万（Ayush Madhan Shedevan）。[音乐]
摄像由马克斯·塔西（Max Tassy）和大卫·郑（David Chung）负责。制作支持来自卡斯蒂·麦克劳德（Kasti McCloud）和 TVO 数字媒体服务团队。感谢马克·福特（Mark Ford）、[音乐] TVO 演播室团队，以及多伦多大学罗特曼管理学院的每一个人。洛里·菲尤（Lori Few）[音乐] 是数字内容执行制作人。凡妮莎·凯斯（Vanessa Case）是媒体副总裁。非常感谢您的收听。
英文原文
>> This was Mistreated. Thanks for listening. Our thanks to Clara [music] Hughes for being so generous in our conversation.We've included resources in our show notes if you are in need of support. You can follow our show wherever you download your podcast so you can get notified each time a new episode is available.
You can write me an email at mistreated@tvo.org. We read them all or you can reach out to me on social media.
I'd like to share a comment from our investigation on accessing care for EDS. This comment is from YouTube. The severity of the symptoms are not mentioned in the video. I wish they were so people would understand the urgency. It is absolutely terrifying to have severe symptoms that deteriorate as it's untreated. The suffering and lack of care is inhumane. Thank you for talking about this and trying to bring attention.
Thank you so much for all of your emails and comments. We uh haven't been able to get through them all, but we really appreciate you taking the time to let us know um how this episode has impacted you.
This week's episode was produced by Chantal Darmar and me and edited by Colin Kish. Coordinating producer Matthew Amara. Digital shorts by Edwin Jansen and motion graphic designer Ayush Madhan Shedevan. [music]
Camera work by Max Tassy and David Chung. Production support from Kasti McCloud and TVO's digital media services team. Our thanks to Mark Ford, [music] the TVO studio crew and to everyone at University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management. Lori Few [music] is executive producer of digital. Vanessa Case is vice president of media. Thanks so much for listening.