Christine: And so you stick your arm out the curtain and the person sticks her nose into your armpit and takes meticulous notes. And she is grading for things like mal odor, which is the official industry term for BO,

Christine: but also the integrity of the fragrances that are intended to mask that BO. I'm Christine Sir Cleette.

Kyra: I'm Kyra Blackwell. And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Christine: Kyra, Christine, it is officially summer. It's officially hot New York City summer here for us. Smelly, stinky, sweaty, all of it.

Kyra: Yeah. Which is it is a stinky time of year. And it not just because of the hot garbage on the New York City streets. Um it is the time of year where we start worrying about smelling and you know do we have pit stains and all that stuff. I'm curious. Do you have a deodorant or an antipersment that you like?

Christine: No, I don't. And I've been searching for an embarrassingly long amount of time. I think I I always think that I find the one and then it just doesn't work for me anymore. I don't know what that is. What about you?

Kyra: Well, I actually just use my husband's whenever I need it. I just yink it out of the out of the medicine cabinet. So clearly I'm not thinking about it too too deeply. But today maybe we'll solve your problem and maybe we'll discover a product that I'll like as well. So we are going to talk about deodorants and antipersprints today. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about how to pick one. We're going to talk about the recommendations we have. We have tested a ton of them. Our beauty team has tested them. There are so many options and it's a very personal choice. I really react to scents to fragrances and so I'm really turned off to a lot of deodorants and antipersperants because of that. So there's just a lot of factors that go into it.

Christine: Yeah, it's really hard to pick these days pretty much anything but definitely deodorants and antipersperants. So that's why we're bringing on Abby Kazulic, a senior staff writer on the beauty team to tell us everything we'll need to know about deodorants and antiperscerins, even what the difference is between the two and how to pick the right one for you.

Kyra: That's right. So after the break, Abby will join us and she's going to share some pretty funny testing anecdotes, too. We'll be right back. Welcome back. With us now is Abby Kazulch, a senior staff writer on the beauty team who's covered everything from eye creams to makeup for mature skin. She's written the guides to deodorant and antipersperent. And before her time at Wire Cutter, she spent years as a beauty editor and writer at Glamour, Allore, and Cosmo, among other women's magazines in addition to reporting at the Times. Abby, welcome to the show.

Abby: Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here.

Christine: Well, I am excited to talk about this topic today. I feel like people use the term deodorant and antipersperent interchangeably. It's just the way we talk about these products, but there is a difference. So what is that difference?

Abby: So the easiest way to get at the difference is just look at the names of the products. So a deodorant is something that by definition deodorizes or gets rid of BO and that is all it is meant to do. for a product to be considered an antipersperent which is to say something that is anti-perspiring or anti- sweat in the US legally it is an FDA regulated over-the-counter drug and has to contain by definition uh one of several aluminum compounds and those exist in sort of maximum allowable percentages and all of that is is regulated and all of that is specific to antipersperence and not at all to deodorants.

Christine: And it's the aluminum then that is what is stopping the sweating from happening in antipersperent.

Abby: Exactly. The aluminum through sort of a complicated process causes a plug to form in your sweat duct and after that at a minimum you can expect a reduction in sweat if not an outright stoppage of sweat for some time.

Kyra: So how would somebody even really know if they need a deodorant versus an antipersperent? Why choose one over the other?

Abby: Completely up to you. Some people like to have both in a whole sort of armpit wardrobe, if you will. Some people really don't like the feeling of sweating, and if that's you, you definitely want an antipersperent, of course. Some people don't mind sweat and simply don't want to smell. And for those people, deodorant alone does the trick. Maybe you're somebody who most of the time doesn't mind sweating, but you have a big presentation coming up or a wedding. And you know, for those exceptions, you might want an antipersperent in the mix, but for the rest of your life, you might be fine with just a deodorant. So, it's really personal preference.

Christine: When I was growing up, I think there was this sort of rumor about antipersperants and aluminum and the aluminum potentially causing really scary health consequences like Alzheimer's or breast cancer. Yeah,

Kyra: I think this has been debunked, but let's talk about it. What is the truth here?

Abby: So, for decades now, scientists and organizations have been discrediting those initial studies that did point to some fear about an association with Alzheimer's. and or breast cancer and aluminum. So when I was working on the antipersperent guide, I went back to the scientists and organizations who have been discrediting those claims. The Alzheimer's Association for one, American Cancer Society. I spoke to scientists there who maintain that there is no demonstrated correlation between the aluminum in your antipersprint and a risk of either Alzheimer's or dementia or breast cancer. The one thing that did come up though with aluminum that there is in fact a demonstrated risk for is an allergy. So there are very few people who have an aluminum allergy. But if you do have an aluminum allergy, clearly you want to avoid antipersperins because they can lead to at the very least an unpleasant rash.

Christine: If you are having some kind of strange reaction after using a product,

Abby: stop.

Christine: Stop. Okay.

Abby: Absolutely.

Christine: Just a good overall rule of thumb.

Kyra: What about the idea that you're plugging up your armpits with antipersperin? That sounds a little bit unhealthy. Is it as unhealthy as people might think?

Abby: Well, what dermatologists will say typically is that your armpit is such a small piece of real estate in the grand scheme of your body. And so, yes, you want your body to be able to sweat. If you're inhibiting such a little expanse of skin, there's enough skin that can still persspire plenty while you are stopping just the tiny bit that's in your armpit.

Christine: We always like to talk on this show with our writers about how they test products. This is such a personal product. So, how did you test this? What was the testing panel like? Because I would imagine you would want to test with a wide variety of people for deodorants and antipersperants.

Abby: Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because when we put the call out to staffers about who wanted to test for us, so many parents said, "You must make teens test this, too." And, you know, and and then there was this whole sort of separate discussion about how impossibly stinky everybody's teenage kids are and any deodorant or antipersperent that we included had to pass muster with the teens. And so we were very thorough in including a number of teenage kids, kids going through puberty up to people in their I think 70s and 80s. And we tested across the country. So really we we tried to go for every sweaty context, every age group, every climate imaginable. And we were testing mostly in summer, but then we also got into autumn a bit. So, we were able to test even against different kinds of fabrics. You know, there's sort of that uh oh moment that people sometimes realize when they have like exposed skin against wool. And um there there can be sort of an unpleasant like, oh my god, did I remember to put my deodorant on? and and we made sure to include, you know, enough cool weather testing that we could account for wool and armpits, but also plenty of cotton and armpits or just exposed armpits and bathing suits and and tank tops. So, we really really tried to cover the gamut, I would say.

Christine: What were you actually testing for?

Abby: We were testing for everything from how the product felt going on, how long it took to dry down, you know, did it leave a really unpleasant, clammy feeling for too long in your armpits, did it stain clothing? But really, the the main concern for deodorant is how long did the product keep bad smells at bay? And in the case of antipersperent, how long did the product keep sweat at bay?

Kyra: And did they have to have a buddy to smell them to like actually

Abby: the the number of times I asked friends and family to smell my armpits? And it it was it was really unbecoming. Um yeah, I mean to be a tester for this story, you have to be really not at all self-conscious and you have to be willing to ask people to just get up in there and sniff.

Christine: Well, that actually leads to my next question because I saw in your guide you mentioned that you consulted with a professional armpit sniffer.

Abby: I did.

Kyra: What? Okay. Who employs them? What is their job?

Christine: Is it on their business card?

Abby: I wish that were on her uh business card. Yeah, the companies do employ these people. I had to go with a retired armpit sniffer because typically these people are inhouse with particular brands and so you know because we want our sources to be impartial and not affiliated with any brands I had to speak with a woman who was recently retired from this line of work but she had been in house for a very long time at Colgate Palm Olive and she's just one of my favorite sources ever. I wish I could do an entire story about her and this line of work, but basically personal care brands will hire these people, these noses, you have you have to have a really refined nose. But one of the the main functions these professionals serve is if you are testing a deodorant, for example, you might line up a sample of 30 or 40 people to come in for a 24-hour period, apply the deodorant in question, and then have this sniffer smell each armpit at regular intervals.

Abby: So um you might start at 15inute intervals going down the line armpit to armpit that each person at least in the experience of the woman I spoke to each person whose armpit she smelled was behind a curtain so there's a degree of anonymity and you just sort of stick

Kyra: a TV show

Abby: right I know it could be its own reality show um and so you stick your arm out the curtain and the person sticks her nose into your armpit and you know sort of one by one goes down the line and and takes meticulous notes and she is grading for things like mal odor, which is sort of the the official industry term for BO,

Abby: but also the integrity of the fragrances that are intended to mask that BO. So if you have put a lot of resources into a beautiful floral fragrance for your deodorant, you want to know that that fragrance is not only stopping maloor. You want to know that the fragrance is sort of holding up on its own as a nice fragrance. So professional noses are hired for these kinds of things. And they just Yeah. for 24 hours we'll smell the same set of like 30 or 40 armpits and grade the performance of the product over time.

Christine: New dream job unlocked.

Abby: I think we should. I mean, my initial reaction is, gross, but then as you talk about it, the scientific rigor of having a panel of professional sniffers smell you at 15-minute intervals, that actually sounds like it would produce a very reliable result.

Kyra: It does.

Abby: They know what they're doing.

Christine: Clearly. But anyway, back to the guide.

Abby: Yes.

Christine: So, we talked a bit about teenagers. And we also, you know, we have different needs. So, how did the testing panel reflect that? How did the needs differ?

Abby: So, we had people who sweat a lot, people who don't sweat much at all. We had people who really care about fragrances, people who don't. We had people with sensitive skin, who get rashes easily. We had people who are active, who work out a lot. And we had people who work in offices, who just want to make sure they don't smell during a meeting. So, it was really a broad range.

Christine: And did you find that one product worked for everyone, or did you need a variety?

Abby: Oh, definitely a variety. There is no one-size-fits-all product. What works for one person might not work for another. In fact, we found that even for the same person, their needs can change over time.

Christine: Great time to reassess your uh your products.

Kyra: It also kind of sounds like it will be smart for people who do go through hormonal changes or whatever. Like maybe you have one armpit that disagrees with the other to just have like what did you call it? A wardrobe.

Abby: A wardrobe. of deodorants and antipersperants on hands.

Kyra: Yeah. So, you don't maybe need just one deodorant if you find that your body is a little bit funny like that.

Abby: Exactly.

Christine: To tag on to that. If you are one of these parents that's navigating the teen situation, maybe getting a few, have your kid try them out.

Kyra: So, if you are kind of looking to switch or maybe you realize that you do need more than the one that you have at home, what is the best way for somebody to do that? How do you just stand in an aisle at a drugstore and just pick the right one? It's really tough.

Abby: I would say you have to prepare for a bit of trial and error. No matter what, if you are trying a new product, you probably, according to the germs I spoke to for these guides, you want to give it at least a week to see if it's working or not. And in particular, if you're switching from an antipersperent to a deodorant, you want to allow for a little bit of a a cleanout period between the two before you assess how how your new deodorant is doing for you because you could still be dealing with the residual effects of the antipersperent that's still sort of dissipating and coming out of your ducts. But even uh if you're switching from one deodorant to another, you still want to wait a little while to see if the new one is working, a week generally, because even certain deodorants are particularly good at clinging to your skin through a sort of standard showering.

Christine: Basic, very basic question. I assume the best time to put on deodorant is after you've taken a shower, you've dried off, you put your antipersprint or deodorant on for the day. Is that right? Is that the best time?

Abby: That really depends. For heavy sweaters who are going to be using antipersperants, some dermatologists will encourage application at bedtime.

Kyra: What? At bedtime.

Abby: At bedtime. Yeah.

Christine: You put on your night cream. People are nodding at me and like I know that. Okay.

Kyra: Well, I sweat a lot when I sleep.

Abby: Well, also I mean so you're bucking the trend, Kyra, because the reason typically given behind that advice is that you are less sweaty at night unless you're going through

Kyra: a big hormonal shift, let's say.

Christine: Okay, Abby.

Abby: So am I. But um sort of broadly speaking, your body temperature comes down a bit. uh you're a little bit less sweaty, so your ducts are a bit more efficient at taking up the aluminum that will then form the plugs that help reduce sweat the next day. That that's sort of the oversimplified version of why dermatologists might recommend that for heavy sweaters who use antipersperent, the process is best begun at bedtime and then you maybe reapply the next morning or you apply just a deodorant the next morning. And that is really a an ask your dermatologist kind of thing. If you are using a deodorant, generally the best time to do so is after you have showered and dried your skin. But there's no harm in applying on the fly if you've forgotten or you notice that you are starting to get a bit of breakthrough bio as we call it in the biz. But at that point, you're going to be relying more on the masking fragrances, and you probably won't get quite the same level of efficacy as you would if you were applying to freshly showered and dried skin, but you'll get a little something.

Christine: So, people might associate antipersperent and deodorant with just the classic stick versions, but there are a lot of options on the market these days. I've personally seen something that horrified me which is like a gel that you rub onto your armpits and I think that's a crime against humanity but it people need that so that's fine. Yeah. Can you tell us more about all the different wonderful ways you can put on deodorant or different?

Abby: Yeah. Well, I think you know sort of the best known quote unquote traditional ones are sticks and rollons and gels but the kind of gel that comes out of a tube. I think uh the one you're alluding to is the bomb um Act London, the deodorant bomb um has had this viral sensation of a journey and we we call that one the deodorant that divided our newsroom.

Christine: Yes.

Abby: Because like you, many of our testers do consider it the devil's spawn and uh and and think there is nothing grosser than putting a dab of cream on your or balm on your fingertips and then sort of rubbing that directly into your pits and then having to wash that hand and then use the other hand to get to the other pit. But then we had 14 people testing that product. half thought it was perfect or near perfect and I was in the camp that really really liked it. Um,

Christine: what did you like about it?

Abby: I liked the efficacy. I put it through the grossest imaginable tests. I decided to forego standard hygiene for a probably not recommended period of time and and

Kyra: all of the things you have to do for these guys. It's wild.

Abby: Exactly. So, I think I went at least a few days without showering and wearing questionable like I was wearing a pants suit in the middle of summer that was lined with polyester, which Yeah, exactly. Like nothing to in New York City. Nothing nothing to inflame Bio like a polyester lined pants suit. Um, and that was for a public appearance where, you know, my adrenaline was really pumping and you're just risking it all. I I was risking it all for for science and work and and I stayed eerily fragrance-free, let's say, um for days. I just couldn't believe it. And it became almost a sport. Like, what more can I do to test this poor deodorant? And then other members of our team were similarly uh you know somebody else was um having conjugal relations uh with no AC in the middle of summer in this in this with this deodorant on to see how that would go. It was sort of almost a competition. How gross how gross can we get in the name of testing deodorant? And uh yeah it we we really did put everything uh to the test. But ultimately, I really liked this particular balm um just because it held up so improbably well and other people really love the the scents. It comes in sort of interesting scents. In fact, a number of the products that we tested and that wound up as picks came in fragrances that go well beyond lavender, mint, rosemary, you know, really, really creative scents, too, for people who like that kind of thing.

Kyra: I grew up in a real hippie- dippy environment. A lot of people like to use those crystal rock deodorants. Do those actually work? What did they even make it into testing?

Abby: They did make it into testing. Yeah, people were super enthusiastic about testing the crystal deodorants and then most testers went eerily silent. Um, it was like, so I would say it was not one of the most successful products we tested. It did work for a few people, but not for enough that it became a pick, right? So, if you're using it and you like it, no shade. It might be totally great for you, but it's probably not going to work for a lot of people.

Christine: So, Abby, we haven't actually really gotten into any of your picks in the antiperscerant or the deodorant guide. So, we're going to give you some scenarios where people might want to prioritize something, and we want to hear your thoughts on what you would specifically recommend for somebody in these scenarios. Ready?

Abby: Sounds good.

Christine: Awesome. So, what if somebody really struggles with pit stains on their clothes?

Abby: I'm going to go with the degree ultra clear black and white. It did not for any of our testers leave pit stains, marks, and we really tried hard to make it leave marks. I cannot say with total certainty that it would never, but as you can tell from the name, it's sort of the product's stock and trade that it's meant to be ultra clear and non-staining.

Kyra: All right. someone who is tired of having white streaks on their dark clothing.

Christine: This is me, by the way.

Abby: Exact same product.

Christine: Yeah. All right. Okay.

Abby: Yeah. And then, um, Shea Moisture, I would say, is the runner up for that one.

Kyra: Oh, like the hair care brand.

Abby: The hair care brand. They have a really nice antipersperent deodorant.

Christine: I had no idea.

Abby: Yes. And it got to the point that I was even, this is not how you were supposed to test for these things, but because we were going sort of all out, I was just rubbing the deodorant directly onto my clothing, bypassing my skin, which is of course not how these things work, but I just wanted to see how far we could push this. And with most fabrics, I would say the Shea Moisture left almost no trace, even when I was applying it literally direct to a pair of charcoal gray sweatpants.

Kyra: That's going to be my next purchase. Okay. What if somebody sweats through their shirt during presentations, meetings, or stressful situations?

Abby: So, the Mitchum women's antipersprint that is one of our picks was one of the hardest working. It has the highest allowable percentage of the particular aluminum compound that is in that formulation. And it just went on and on. someone who doesn't really sweat much but worries about getting stinky by the end of the day. So, I would say the world is your oyster here. You you have the most choices of of anyone. And here I would say have a look at some of the picks that get into really beautiful or unusual or fun fragrances. So, Hume was one of our picks in that category I would say or Nessair. also salt air because there you're you're really just looking at deodorants and you can have fun with just some of the fragrances that that sound extra appealing or interesting to you.

Christine: What if you're someone who has really sensitive skin and might get irritation from deodorants?

Abby: So in that case I would recommend the Dove aluminum free deodorant and that is the name of the product. I should clarify because all deodorants as as we've said are by definition if it's just a deodorant it is by definition aluminum free but aluminum free has become a big marketing term. So Dove aluminum free deodorant specifically in the variety for sensitive skin that did well for our sensitive skin testers.

Kyra: All right, this is for all my my crystal rock people out there. Um, if you want the most natural deodorant,

Abby: well, with apologies to Kyra, I'm going to go back to the Act deodorant bomb. It's interesting because even though it is not an antipersperent, it does not contain any aluminum compound. It does have sweat absorbing agents, which we haven't really gotten into yet. So, it creates the impression a little bit of being almost anti-persperentish in that it's it's keeping you drier than a deodorant without any sweat mopping agents in it, but it contains no aluminum. People who tend to look for quote unquote natural deodorants are looking for aluminum free generally. So, I would say ACT is a is a good way to go there.

Kyra: And those sweat mopping agents that you mentioned, those are also naturally occurring agents.

Abby: Yes, it's b it's like dirt like doommatous earth is one which clay is another arrowroot which is a starch is another.

Christine: Oh wow.

Abby: Yeah.

Christine: What if you're somebody who lives somewhere hot and humid and spends a lot of time outside?

Abby: So then I would go for one of the strong antipersperants. I would go back to that Mitchum or I would go back again to that degree ultra clear. If you want a deodorant, the Dr. Squatch, it a good one. And that also has some of those sweat mopping agents. So again, it's not officially an antipersprint. It doesn't contain any aluminum compounds, but it can sort of give the impression of helping to mop up sweat.

Kyra: All right, our final one, the sweaty and or stinky teen. What are you recommending?

Abby: So, there's a whole other guide to puberty that Wire Cutter has produced. our friends and colleagues who work on health have put that guide together and we've talked about armpit protection. We've had sort of a crossd disciplinary discussion about the kinds of products that might work there. One thing that has come up is that especially for kids who are super self-conscious about this initial onset of extreme stinkiness, they might want uh something that's labeled a clinical strength antipersperent. And in that case, Dove clinical protection is something that they recommend in the puberty guide. But there's no reason that um some of the antipersperants and deodorants that we recommend in our guide as well can't work for a teen. If you're not looking for something quite as potent as the clinical strength from Dove, then again the Shea Moisture is really nice, especially if you are looking for something a bit gentle and moisturizing.

Christine: So before we wrap, we always ask our guests one last question. What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

Abby: Well, if you've noticed an overpowering garlic aroma coming out of my pores that no deodorant could ever mask,

Christine: I haven't.

Abby: Um, it's because this morning on my way here, have you guys read our pickle guide?

Christine: I have. Yes.

Abby: When I read the guide, I asked Makiawa on the kitchen team, the author, for recommendations for half sour pickles, which didn't make it into the guide. But she sent me to the pickle guys whom she interviewed um and did videos with for this story.

Christine: Great.

Abby: And so I went and had some of the best halfsour pickles of my entire life.

Kyra: Wow.

Abby: And now there's a court of them sitting in the fridge outside. But that court of half sour pickles from the pickle guys is far and away the best thing I've bought in a long time.

Christine: Thank you so much, Abby.

Kyra: Thank you, Abby. We'll have you back soon. Kyra, do you feel that well educated on deodorants and antipersperents now?

Kyra: I feel more educated on the job that I never knew existed that I need to know more about.

Christine: Yeah, I feel I'm I'm very intrigued by the nose by the armpit.

Kyra: Yeah, the armpit sniffer thing.

Christine: All right, going back to deodorants and antipersprints, what are you taking away this episode?

Kyra: I'm definitely gonna try the Shea Moisture Antipersperent. I always have those white stains in my clothes. I'm sick of them, Christine. So, I'm ready to try something new.

Christine: That is That's a great one.

Kyra: I am now going to start using Mal Odor instead of BO. I think it just sounds classier. Um and then I think when I am approached with the stinky teen phase of my family, it's coming. I will probably be getting a variety of things to try because the same thing isn't going to work for everybody. So,

Christine: yes, I really like that. A little, you know, variety.

Kyra: That's right.

Christine: Well, if you want to find out more about any of Wire Cutter's coverage on deodorant or antipersperants, or if you want to check out any of the products we recommended today, go to ny times.com/wirecutter or find a link in the show notes. That's it for us until next week. Thanks so much for listening. Bye bye.

Kyra: The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Bitup, Catherine Anderson, Rowan Nisto, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutters deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fuman is Wire Cutters editorinchief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Christine: I'm Christine Sirette. Thanks for listening.

Kyra: Armpit is the least of it. It's like imagine if your job were to smell feet and see how foot deodorizers hold up or kitty litter.

Christine: Wow.