Joshua Johnson: going through life with a willingness to ask more questions than you make statements.

Joshua Johnson: Liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility. Your responsibility is have the curiosity, the integrity, the thoughtfulness, and the humility to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because well, it might be uncomfortable. Well, what are they going to say? Let that be their problem. What if we shuffle the deck?

Blake Mycoskie: I'm fine with that.

Joshua Johnson: All right. [laughter] Okay. Deck. Duly shuffled.

Blake Mycoskie: Okay. You go first now.

Joshua Johnson: All right. So I can own what I've done.

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Joshua Johnson: All right. First question. Are we losing the ability to have real conversations? H I I don't think so. Actually, I think that with everything that's going on from a technical perspective, we are at least in my friend group, I'm finding that people are yearning for more and more uh intimacy, vulnerability, you know, dinner parties. Like I'm I'm feeling a pendulum shift back um because I feel like people have been so digitally focused for so long. And um no, I I don't feel that way at all.

Blake Mycoskie: I get that. And I think the pendulum is definitely shifting. I guess when I read this, the editor in me is like, well, what do you mean by real?

Joshua Johnson: Yeah.

Blake Mycoskie: So, I think for some folks, just being able to like text you when they're freaking out and just have that little human conversation is real connectively because it sort of paves the way

Joshua Johnson: for a more open conversation. Some people aren't ready to have like the eye to eye face to face like conversation, but they could chat you up all day on WhatsApp and that's about as real as they can get. And I I don't know, but I I suspect some people kind of need to be walked from digital and virtual into real world into real space, real time. And maybe that's what's a real conversation for them. kind of pulls them towards something else, you know.

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah. And also I was just thinking I'm probably um you know more exposed to that because most of the work I do is in mental health now and so most of the people I'm talking to is about their mental health and they're opening up about their mental health journeys and so I'm kind of predisposed to a lot of very vulnerable, very honest, very raw conversations, probably more than the general population. I imagine as some people start to have those conversations, their capacity for it grows and maybe their desire for it. Like once you get the benefit of like, oh, that's what that was. Then you want more of it,

Joshua Johnson: right? You want more of it and you find a facility with it.

Blake Mycoskie: For liability purposes, I'm going to start with a gentle swish and flick. Okay. Okay. This is good. So many men feel lonier than ever and don't know how to talk to one another. Where do they start? [sighs and gasps]

Joshua Johnson: I think that they might have to start inward because if you're not comfortable saying, "Hey man, I'm not sure how to like connect other people."

Blake Mycoskie: Mhm.

Joshua Johnson: That's a level of exposure I'm not sure some guys are ready for. If you're already struggling to connect other people, I think for some men, maybe that first conversation needs to be in the mirror

Joshua Johnson: and be like, "Look, this this is what my life is. There's no use kidding myself. Here's where I really am. This is what's happening. This is what my social life is like. This is what my romantic life is like. This is how I see myself. This is what I actually want. And figure out if I had more connection. What would that mean to me? What would a perfect day in my life look like if I had the connections I wanted

Joshua Johnson: rather than just, well, you should reach out more. You should be more connected.

Joshua Johnson: Why? To what end? I think a lot of guys that I know anyway rebel against that because they're not sure like when you're done like when does when do I know if this works? Just kind of sitting in the discomfort and like okay am I am I social now? Like am I human now? It just feels too fuzzy.

Joshua Johnson: So maybe the first thing they need to do is get it clear in here so that they have a sense of agency when they're asked to go do something. and they can go that's not really what I'm looking for and mean it as opposed to do that. Like my goal is to make this change in my life that would look this way and that doesn't seem like it meets this goal so I'm going to pass a little more actively than just being kind of like blown sideways through. You should be more social for socializing sake. You know what I mean?

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah. I mean I was thinking of it just like a more very practical tip. If someone is lonely and they don't know how to talk to another man, I think the the easiest thing is to invite someone to coffee and ask them about their life. Because I find that if if someone is is hesitant or scared or doesn't know how to be vulnerable with another man, it's it's much easier if someone has gone first. And so, but if you really are feeling the need to do that, then by inviting someone to coffee, you know, ideally someone that you have been close to before and just saying, "Hey, I just want to check in like how's everything going in your life, that guy is most likely going to share and and and then that will make it easier for them you to share." So, I think it's a very much I guess I'm going to this question in a much more practical of someone's watching this right now. They're like, "Man, I feel like I don't have any good guy friendss anymore. I don't feel like I'm connected to my buddies at all." And actually, I have a a short little story about this, which is interesting, is I was on the way home for Thanksgiving and I went home and I and I was at the time, gosh, it was so 19 years ago, so I was like 29, 30 years old. And I said, "Dad, after Thanksgiving, can we go into the study and I want to interview you about your life?" My dad was like, "Okay." We were close. And so I asked my dad all these questions about his life and it was just a great experience. But at the end I asked him that final question. I said, 'Dad, I said, 'What is your if you have any regrets? And he said, Blake, he said, I do have one regret. I said, okay, what is it? He says, look, I your mom and I have had this beautiful marriage for now 37 years. You, your sister, your brother have turned out great. You're all doing different things and following your passion. I've had a great, you know, I've loved my medical practice and and helping people. But um over the years I really lost touch with all my guy friends, you know, all my friends from college, all my friends from medical school. You know, I always just said no to the, you know, the weekend golf guys trips or the this or that because I was just so busy with you and your mom and my work. And now you guys are in college or out of the house. You know, I'm now getting close to retirement. And I love your mom, but I can't spend every moment with her. And so I don't really have anyone to hang out with and I'm lonely. And he said, "So don't make that mistake." And so I at that time I was 30 years old. I had just started Tom Shoes who were like two years old. And I wrote an email to my seven best friends. Couple of them for like college. Some were from newer friends in LA. And I said I told him the story and I said, "We can't have this happen to us. Let's do an annual trip every year." And so we started our first trip in 19 years ago and we're getting ready to have our 20th anniversary.

Joshua Johnson: Where'd you go? Where was the first trip?

Blake Mycoskie: First trip was a camping and fishing trip in Colorado.

Blake Mycoskie: And uh and we've done one trip every single year for 19 years. The group is now 14 guys. We call it the rugged adventure club. It was rugged and then when I sold Tom's it became not so rugged, right?

Joshua Johnson: We started going to the Maldes and all these places.

Blake Mycoskie: You can't call it like the guys who glam. [laughter]

Blake Mycoskie: Exactly. But I I bring that I bring that up because, you know, it that group has taught me how to have really meaningful, deep relationships with men, which has had probably as big of an impact on my mental health as anything else.

Joshua Johnson: I love that story because your dad had the presence of mind and the the willingness to be vulnerable with his regrets. Can I tell you my version of that story?

Blake Mycoskie: Sure, I'm here for it.

Joshua Johnson: I My father, you know, my father passed away last year and was ill for a very long time. His health like declined, declined, declined, declined for years. And he and I were really quite aranged. The estrangement, you know, he and my mother divorced when I was five. The arangement deepened after I came out. And so it was just kind of like a process. And my father was a Jehovah's Witness. So it was just like one thing after another. Eventually, I kind of felt convicted and I was like, I need to keep trying to reach out. And I tried to reach out and tried to reach out. Finally, kind of in the last year of his life, he was really not doing well. And I thought, I need to like make time to fly home to Florida.

Blake Mycoskie: Okay.

Joshua Johnson: And just sit down and talk to the guy. And I said, "Dad, I want to do your oral history.

Joshua Johnson: I feel like I don't know you."

Blake Mycoskie: Wow.

Joshua Johnson: Like not really know you.

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: Made a special trip. Planned the whole thing. Dad, are we still going to do this oral history?

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: I bought equipment. Like, I'm ready to do this now. Let you know what let next time.

Blake Mycoskie: Oh, no.

Joshua Johnson: We'll do it then. We've got time.

Blake Mycoskie: Oh, no.

Joshua Johnson: And in that moment, I decided, yeah, I'm done. I'm not going to ask anymore.

Joshua Johnson: Yeah. I don't know what it was, but I think my father was unable to really process being a dad be beyond being a provider. And that human connection of like this is how to be a man. This is how to be a black man. This is how to be a human. This is how to love never quite clicked for him even after I became a storyteller. He knew I was a journalist, but couldn't quite get like, "No, I don't need what you can provide for me. I need you."

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: And when he passed, I was supposed to like write his obit. Still haven't.

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: Cuz I don't know what to write.

Blake Mycoskie: Okay. So, this question is great. Um I'm assuming it's the one we're already having, which is, "What's the most transformational conversation you've ever had?"

Joshua Johnson: Oh god, I had so many. I mean, I was an interviewer for a living, so I've had I've talk to a lot of people. I got to interview Eric Holder, the former US Attorney General under uh Barack Obama, and I was really excited to interview him because it was one of the first like people of his echelon that I had ever talked to. I was really excited. Then after a while, like I could kind of hear my goofy family in the background cuz we're we're very we're not high flutin. We're not fancy people. Uh very together, but not like we don't put on airs and attitudes. And something about it felt weird, especially because I wasn't thinking anything about the guest after him. It was nobody famous. And so I decided to like, okay, I'm just I'm just going to talk to him like he's any other guest.

Joshua Johnson: Invite him in. How's it going? Have a seat. Made comfortable. Very personable guy. We had a great time. Cuz he was having a good time. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, you know, smelling myself for a second. Like, that's right. that extended that taught me that's what that taught me is to be one person to set one standard. Raise or lower for no one. Like I know who I am as a person. I know what my values are. Mhm. I know how I want to be treated. That rule is golden for a reason. And I decided that's who I'm going to be. And if we don't vibe, that's cool. If we do, that's fine. But it just it made life so much easier. And it made the work easier. You're like, "This is me. Oh, we don't click. Okay, cool. That's cool. You get to be you. I get to be me. And we figure it out somewhere along the way." And through all of the ups and downs of talking to all kinds of different people, that was just like it just greased the wheels for the next three years of that work, it it was I I'm amazed I thought of it. I didn't know I was that bright. I'm glad I had that burst of insight cuz it made life so much simpler. So much simpler.

Blake Mycoskie: I love that. I love that. Um, okay. So, for me, what's the most transformational conversation you ever had? It actually happened about a year ago um with my kids and I have an 11-year-old and an eight-year-old and um also a 31-year-old adopted son, but this was with the biological kids and um I they had seen, you know, and experienced me having a really me hard mental health crisis for about two years. I was in and out of treatment centers. I wasn't able to, you know, you know, kind of be there for them in the way that I was before. It was a really hard time. And then I started feeling better. I had some amazing healing experiences um especially around this core wound of not feeling enough. And as I started feeling better um they could tell was really different. And now I spending a lot more time with them and and the conversation I had with them is one day my son said something about like what's different and you know and I or kind of like well why how do we know you're not going to feel bad again type thing like he was worried. I said summit because now I know that I'm enough just as I am. Not because of what I've done, not because of what I built, not because what everyone thinks of me, but just because I exist. And now that I know that, I think my life will always be different. And I and I saw him like, look, and it was the coolest thing because I then continued the conversation be like, and that extends to you and your sister, too. You guys are enough exactly as you are. You can, you know, you can try out for the water polo team. You can try to make good grades. You can try to, you know, do these things, but none of that is tied to your worth. I love you and your mom loves you and the world loves you and they always will just because you exist. And ever since then, I've seen a lightness in my kids and a connection in us that is so deep, so peaceful, and so much that at dinner every night now, we had this little ritual where we hold hands. And my 8-year-old, we start the youngest first, and she says, "I am enough." And looks around and then she looks at us, she goes, "You are enough." And she goes, "And we are enough." And then the next child does it, and then I do it. And and that all came from that conversation. And I hadn't even thought about that till this. Yeah. But it was one of the probably the most important conversations of my life.

Joshua Johnson: Two questions I have to ask on that. When you said you saw a lightness in your kids, what was that like?

Blake Mycoskie: But I have to say it but but I didn't have to say it. But as soon as I felt that

Blake Mycoskie: And my daughter still I think is has somewhere to grow in that because I still think she puts a lot of pressure on herself still. I mean, she's only eight, but but I I I I have seen that when we do the ritual at dinner, there's like a twinkle in their eye. There's a smile. There's a like, yeah, I am enough. And it's something it's a practice. It's not something like, oh, I experienced it once and now I have it forever. It's it's something that you have to continue to practice every day. You know, that's why I wear the bracelet. It's like my reminder every day of of that to come back to this centering. But that that conversation with the kids I think will be one that I'm I'm willing to bet any amount of money if they're sitting in these chairs someday that at least my son would say that was probably the most meaningful conversation.

Joshua Johnson: I see you have two of those bracelets and I feel like when you said enough I kind of

Blake Mycoskie: you know why I have two.

Joshua Johnson: Why?

Blake Mycoskie: You'll see.

Blake Mycoskie: So one of my favorite things to do it's not about wearing it yourself. It's about giving it to someone. So I always wear an extra one.

Joshua Johnson: Oh.

Blake Mycoskie: So if I ever feel like, okay, this is something I want to share with someone. There you go. And this says, you are enough on the inside.

Joshua Johnson: Oh, wow.

Blake Mycoskie: And then now you have one, too.

Joshua Johnson: I love it. Yeah. Thank you.

Blake Mycoskie: You're welcome.

Joshua Johnson: Thank you so much. When I saw this, I I kind of saw this with a period and also

Blake Mycoskie: Give me both. like enough as sort of a as a a a checkary or enough like a relief almost. It's it's interesting you bring that up because I it was I originally made it we hand make them these women in India make them and we and that's where I had a bunch of my healing and originally it was more the I am enough a softness but I also think um in the climate that we live in today there's something also it's a real activist spirit you know so it's like enough like you know and and almost even like I think of like you know people who sometimes have been told their life that they're not smart enough or pretty enough or that they're, you know, going to amount to enough. It's like it's like it's almost like a [ __ ] you to all the people who said you couldn't do it that you are enough and you don't need their validation.

Joshua Johnson: I love it. Thank you for this.

Joshua Johnson: Okay. It's like, oh, where did that go?

Blake Mycoskie: It's the daily double. No. [laughter]

Joshua Johnson: If you could redesign how people connect with each other, where would you start?

Blake Mycoskie: If I could re you went somewhere. Where did you go?

Joshua Johnson: This is exactly where I [laughter] went. I went to Avatar.

Blake Mycoskie: I knew there was something specific.

Joshua Johnson: And Pandora. And if you've watched Avatar, when the um Avatar gets on the horse

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: So that's where [laughter] I went.

Blake Mycoskie: Well, they kind of like it.

Joshua Johnson: I was like, if I could design any way we connect, there'd be a some way that like when we shook hands, I transferred part of my consciousness to you. And so we connected in a nonverbal way and we could have conversation through touch without having to use our words.

Blake Mycoskie: That's where [laughter] I just went. I But you know, I get it. I get it. I knew you saw something specific. I could see it. If I could redesign how people connect, I would make it an educational prerequisite

Joshua Johnson: because that's within our power.

Blake Mycoskie: Yeah. I would put listening, communication, and critical thinking as a high school

Joshua Johnson: Yeah. I would make it uh I would make it a common core standard. I would put it in the common core. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: I think that, you know, especially because when you're little, like kids got great questions. Yeah. Kids are are builtin like question asker, you know, idea finder routers and they And so like connection is our lifeblood. And I think if you start real young I mean I did speech debate in middle high school. Best skill set I ever learned more than much as I use math and science, writing, you know, 14 seconds at a time. You got to sort of invest in it. And I think kids are sort of crying out for it. They know something's wrong. They know that They're aware of what's happening. And I think frankly are already starting to get So they're aware the world is not built for them right now. And they're going to I think if we teach kids to do it, they'll stick to it. They'll learn what like appropriate conversations are, listening, investing in people, even eye contact. Yeah. Like even just something as simple as like you and me being able to like look, you know, we're either staring each other down or like waiting for one of our heads to explode. [laughter] That skill set for kids is just it revolutionizes what it's like to grow up and to become a citizen of the world. I would start by making it a common core standard.

Blake Mycoskie: That's great. I love that. Now I'm going to throw it where I ain't supposed to throw it and see if it ends up where it's supposed to be.

Joshua Johnson: Oh, see that? See that?

Blake Mycoskie: Okay, that was He sets you up for failure and you find success.

Joshua Johnson: Okay, we we only have two left. Here we go.

Blake Mycoskie: But first, let's see the one you didn't pick.

Joshua Johnson: Okay, [laughter] tell you what, I'll ask you and you can put the answer in the comments. How about that? The one we didn't pick. When did you realize that strength and vulnerability were not opposites? Put it in the comments.

Joshua Johnson: So, the last question today is, "What are some tips you have to help others have deeper conversations?"

Blake Mycoskie: That is a perfect question to end on. I shuffled the deck and it landed the right way.

Joshua Johnson: Yes. You're welcome. Tips to have deeper conversations. Yes. Uhu.

Joshua Johnson: I would get really good at asking questions. And I'll give you one example. I used to be in uh public radio and when I started to get on the air and people noticed me, they would, it happened over and over. Oh, you're Joshua Johnson. I never would have guessed you were black [laughter] tall. I never would have thought you were so tall. You sound 3 foot n on the radio. Happened over and over and it used to make me crazy. And I finally figured out a simple twoword response that changed everything. When not those two words, when they would say, "I never would have guessed you were black." My response was, "Why not?"

Blake Mycoskie: And pause. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: And don't say anything.

Blake Mycoskie: That's that's one of the one of my tips is going to be be very comfortable with silence.

Joshua Johnson: Well, and here's the thing. What I finally learned was there's nothing I can say to you that will hurt more than what you will say to yourself. And when they reflect back to themselves why they actually said that, they went, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry." And I say, "It's okay, but now you know, and now you can decide if that's the person you want to be, but it's not my problem anymore. It's your problem." And that gave me peace. I could let it go. I didn't have to walk through life like that. Liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility. Your responsibility is to ask it, to be thoughtful, to have the integrity, to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because, well, it might be uncomfortable. Well, what are they going to say? That's on them. I have a question for you. Is it okay if I ask? Or did you just need to be heard? Is it okay if I put this in? Or do you need me to just sit with you?

Blake Mycoskie: Okay, great. I think that deep conversations require time. I think that if you really want to have a deep conversation, you need to have undistracted time, you know, and it's kind of a little bit of what you said around ask a question and then be comfortable being silent because it's in the pause where the the depth can come out. And I think that so much of our conversations with people, the reason why they're not deep is because we're always pressed for time and our attention is always scattered, right? And so in order to have deep conversations, that's why I love, you know, hosting this this podcast now because I know that the person has set aside two hours and I might only have an hour's worth of questions for him, but I'm not in any rush, you know, and so when I ask the question, I have plenty of time to allow them to go deeper. And then often also what you said I liked is like asking a clarifying question around the first question. So, not just jumping to the next question, but then asking a a question that helps them go deeper. Um, and then sitting and having the time. So, I guess it really is about making sure that there's enough time for the person to go deep.

Joshua Johnson: Blake, thank you, sir. And thank you for this. This is fantastic. I really appreciate it. Ah,

Blake Mycoskie: thank you so much. Good talk to you. Yep. Awesome.