--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-09' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_DyPFgDOcs speaker: TVO Today tags: - humanitarian-crisis - civil-war - refugees - diaspora title: 一顿传统苏丹餐桌上的对话：流亡、战火与故土危机 summary: 居住在加拿大安大略省奥沙瓦的苏丹移民 Mamoun Hassan 与 Wala Hassanein，通过分享传统苏丹美食，讲述了他们作为难民来到加拿大的经历，以及近期重返苏丹参与人道援助所见证的战争废墟、流离失所与医疗危机，并深入剖析了苏丹武装部队与快速支援部队的权力冲突及国际社会的沉默。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: geopolitics area: geopolitics project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - Sudanese Armed Forces - Rapid Support Forces - Sudanese American Physicians Association products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 奥沙瓦的苏丹味道与故土连结 **主持人**: 安大略省**奥沙瓦**（Oshawa）是一群规模虽小但持续增长的**苏丹移民**的家园。
Original English **Host**: Oshawa, Ontario is home to a small but growing diaspora of Sudanese immigrants.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 黑胡椒和盐。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Black pepper and salt.
**主持人**: 比如 **Mamoun Hassan** 和 **Wala Hassanein**。
Original English **Host**: Like Mamoun Hassan and Wala Hassanein.
**Wala Hassanein**: 你好，最近怎么样？很高兴见到你。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Hello, how are you? Nice to meet you.
**主持人**: 我今天非常荣幸能受邀来共同分享一顿**苏丹传统美食**。
Original English **Host**: I'm lucky to be invited today to share in a traditional meal.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 同样很高兴见到你。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Nice to meet you as well.
**主持人**: 闻起来太香了。今天来也是想听听他们对**苏丹**本土局势发展的看法。
Original English **Host**: It smells delicious. And to get their views on events unfolding back in Sudan.
**Wala Hassanein**: 是的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Yes.
**主持人**: 哇，太棒了。
Original English **Host**: Oh, wow.
**Wala Hassanein**: 做**埃及野麻婴汤**（mulukhiyah，锦葵汤）的第一步是准备两个洋葱。它的主要原料包括酸奶、绞牛肉、花生酱，以及苏丹特色香料。这就是第一步。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: First step of mulukhiyah is two onions. And the main ingredients in it, yogurt, ground beef, peanut butter, and the Sudanese spices. So, this is the first step.
**主持人**: 刚才你提到了花生酱，它在苏丹饮食中经常使用吗？
Original English **Host**: How you mentioned peanut butter, is it used commonly in Sudanese food?
**Wala Hassanein**: 非常多，用得极多。他们会在沙拉里放花生酱，这让很多人感到意外，因为比起做甜食，我们更多是把它用来烹饪**咸味菜肴**和炖菜。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: A lot, a lot. They use it in salads, which is a surprise for a lot of people cuz we make it with more savory food than sweet. And our stews.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 请坐这边。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: So, you can have a seat.
**主持人**: 好的，那我就坐这边了。当你坐在厨房里看着大家做饭时，那种感觉就像是立刻获得了一种莫大的荣幸，仿佛你已经成为了这个家庭的一部分。
Original English **Host**: Oh, I guess I'll sit over here, yeah. When you sit like in the kitchen while people are cooking, you're kind of it's an immediate like honor that you're now part of the family.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我们来加拿大时年纪都很小，对吧？所以在生活方式上我们更像加拿大人，但我们学着做这些菜，是因为我们内心深处深爱着这些家乡味道。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: As we came really young, right? So, we're more Canadian, but we learned these dishes because we love them so much.
### 餐桌上的传统与流亡的记忆 **主持人**: 尽管加拿大的郊区与苏丹相隔万里，但像他们这样的家庭，心中却从未真正放下过苏丹。
Original English **Host**: Although the Canadian suburbs feel like a world away, Sudan is never far from the minds of families like theirs.
**Wala Hassanein**: 这道是茄子沙拉，是用茄子搭配少许花生酱拌制而成的。这是番茄芫荽炖牛肉；还有这道是野麻婴锦葵汤（mulukhiyah），里面有绞牛肉和秋葵；这道是 Gima，由土豆块和牛肉末烹制；还有这盘是苏丹风味烤牛肉（beef shaiya）。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: So, this is the eggplant salad. It's a mix of eggplant with also a little bit of peanut butter, beef stew, just tomatoes and coriander, and this is mulukhiyah, ground beef, okra, and gima, which is potatoes and ground beef, and this is beef shaiya.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 还有特制辣酱。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: And a hot sauce.
**Wala Hassanein**: 对，还有这个 Mamoun 亲手调制的辣酱。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Oh, yeah, and the hot sauce made by Mamoun.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 是的，我做的辣酱。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Yes, hot sauce made.
**Wala Hassanein**: 这个辣酱也是用花生酱和辣椒一起调制的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Also made with peanut butter and chili.
**主持人**: 苏丹菜在传统习惯上是偏辣的吗？
Original English **Host**: Is Sudanese food traditionally spicy or...
**Wala Hassanein**: 不辣，辣酱通常都是单独盛在旁边蘸着吃的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: No, the hot sauce is always on the side.
**主持人**: 总是放在旁边自取。
Original English **Host**: Always on the side.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 对，总是单放在一旁。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Always on the side, yeah.
**Wala Hassanein**: 这张薄饼叫 **吉斯拉**（Kisra）。我们通常就是用它来裹着各种炖菜吃的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: So, this is kisra. Is what we usually eat the stews with.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我们是直接用手抓着吃的。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: And we use our hands.
**Wala Hassanein**: 没错。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Yes.
**主持人**: 俗话说得好，用手抓着吃的时候，食物的味道会格外鲜美。确实是这样。
Original English **Host**: As they say, food tastes so much better when you eat with your hands. That's right.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我觉得刚来加拿大的时候，我们经历过一段沉迷于汉堡和极其西化食品的阶段，那确实是一段必经的过渡期。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: I think when we came, we got into a phase of like burgers and very Canadianized food. It was like a phase of it.
**Wala Hassanein**: 那时候我们对那些新奇的食物感到特别兴奋。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: We were so excited about it.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 但很多时候我们依然十分怀念家乡菜。每当家里做起这顿家乡饭时，整个过程几乎就像是一场盛大的仪式。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: We missed it at times and when when it's made it's like it becomes like almost like an event.
**主持人**: 你们当初来这里时年纪都很小。具体是几岁来的？
Original English **Host**: You were young, both of you, when you first came. How old were you guys?
**Wala Hassanein**: 我当时 11 岁。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: I was 11.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我记得我那时是 14 岁。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: And I learned it was 14.
### 从难民身份到人道救援前线 **主持人**: 你们当年离开苏丹的原因是什么？
Original English **Host**: What was the reason you guys left?
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我们当时是以**难民**身份来到加拿大的，对吧？
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: We came as refugees, right?
**Wala Hassanein**: 我们两家都是这样，是的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Both of us, yeah.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 那时候苏丹的局势非常糟糕、非常黑暗。我父亲完全找不到工作，他无法维持生计。而且他在苏丹政治上非常活跃，结果被单位开除，甚至还在苏丹被关押入狱。 我们在苏丹生活的最后两年真的极其艰难，直到父亲想方设法偷渡逃出了苏丹，最终来到了加拿大。 但我之所以这么说，是因为现在当我们看到难民时——因为我们目前的工作正是救助难民——他们是实实在在从真枪实弹的战争炮火中逃出来的，对吧？因此这两种境遇在表面形态上存在差异。每当我说我们当年是作为难民来的时候，我甚至心里会觉得有点微妙。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: At the time Sudan was really, really dirty. So my father couldn't get work. He couldn't He wasn't able and and he was politically quite active in Sudan. He was fired from his job. He got jailed in Sudan. So the last 2 years of our life in Sudan was really, really difficult until he was just able to kind of sneak out of the country and and and come to Canada. But I said that cuz like right now when we see refugees like cuz right now we're working with refugees and so on. And they're actually fleeing real war, right? So there's just a difference of the way that it looks. I feel funny when I say we came as refugees, right?
**主持人**: 听起来没有当前战火那么残酷。
Original English **Host**: It doesn't seem as like...
**Wala Hassanein**: 正如你所说的。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: ...of what you're saying.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 正如大家所谈论的。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: ...were saying.
**主持人**: 你们前不久刚去过苏丹。能跟我聊聊你们在那里所开展的具体人道援助工作吗？
Original English **Host**: As you guys were in Sudan not that long ago. Tell me a little bit about sort of the work that you guys are doing.
**Wala Hassanein**: 我和 Mamoun 一起通过 **SAPA**（**苏丹裔美国医师协会**，Sudanese American Physicians Association）组织参与了这次任务。今年六月，我们前往一个叫做**法希尔**（Al Fasher）的地方，探访了那里的**国内流离失所者营地**（IDP camps）。我们深入走访了大约十个帐篷，实地查看那里正在发生的真实状况。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: I went on this mission with Mamoun through SAPA, an organization. In June we went to see the IDP camps in a place called Al Fasher. And we got to visit about 10 tents to see what's happening there.
**主持人**: Mamoun 与 Wala 与苏丹裔美国医师协会（SAPA）合作，展开了一系列人道主义实地救援行动。
Original English **Host**: Mamoun and Wala have partnered with the Sudanese American Physicians Association on a series of humanitarian trips.
**Wala Hassanein**: 那里是境内流离失所者（IDP）营地，安置的都是从法希尔激烈战乱中逃亡出来的平民。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: IDP camps, which are internally displaced people camps there. And people who were fleeing the war in Al Fasher.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 我们在**恩图曼**（Omdurman）的 Wad Nubawi 社区厨房，他们每天在这里提供一顿救济餐。所有的服务都是依靠他们自己井井有条地运转着：他们亲自下厨做饭，孩子们帮忙分发食物、清洗餐具，所有杂务都是他们承担。 需要提醒大家的是，这些提供帮助的人本身同样也是这场战争的直接受害者。他们并不是从远方安宁之地前来的志愿者，而是本身就经历过战火摧残的人，这正是他们选择回馈彼此、守望相助的方式。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: We're here in Wad Nubawi's kitchen in Omdurman where they serve a meal a day and they come mashallah everything is serviced through them. They cook the food, the kids pour it, they wash the dishes, they do everything. Mind you, these are people who are actually also impacted by the war itself. It's not like they're people who have come away from from far away places, but they've come from the war itself, and this is their way of actually giving back.
**Wala Hassanein**: 我们听到了许多撕心裂肺的真实悲剧，很多极其惨痛的经历是他们亲身承受的。许多人在逃往这些流离失所者营地的路途上，永远失去了自己的至亲家人。沿途充斥着严重的**性暴力**，以及许许多多难以想象的残酷苦难。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: We heard a lot of difficult stories, like some very very tough things that they went through. Yeah, a lot of a lot of them lost their family members or like on the way to come to the to these IDP camps. There's a lot of sexual violence, a lot of a lot of very tough things.
### 瓦砾中的医院与崩溃的医疗防线 **Mamoun Hassan**: 这里是**易卜拉欣·马利克医院**（Ibrahim Malik Hospital），曾是**喀土穆**最大的综合医院之一，但在这场内战中也遭到了彻底摧毁。你可以亲眼看到它已经被炸成了一片废墟，彻底荒废了。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: This is Ibrahim Malik, one of the biggest hospitals in Khartoum that was also destroyed in this war. So, you can see it completely ruined. Yeah.
**Wala Hassanein**: 这所医院是我婴儿时期看病的地方，我小时候对它还有深刻的记忆。小时候真的来过这里。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: So, this is an actual hospital that I attended when I was a baby. So, I do remember it when I was younger. Yeah, as a child.
**主持人**: 如今彻底沦为了瓦砾碎石，什么都没有留下。
Original English **Host**: It's rubble. There's nothing left.
**主持人**: 这些镜头展现了对这场危机的直面记录，记录下了他们走访极度拥挤的流民营地，以及被炮火夷为平地的医院废墟。
Original English **Host**: The clips offer an unflinching look at the crisis, capturing their visits to overcrowded displacement camps and the ruins of a bombed-out hospital.
**Wala Hassanein**: 一个新生儿就那样被草草掩埋了。我们还有太多太多的工作要做。而这一切必须从唤醒公众意识开始，去了解正在发生什么，并将真相传递给外界。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: A baby was buried. So, we do have work to do. And it starts with just raising awareness, learning what's happening, sharing it with others.
### 军阀内斗的本质与外部干预 **主持人**: 苏丹当前主要有两大军事力量在对抗：一个是**苏丹武装部队**（Sudanese Armed Forces, SAF），另一个则是准军事组织**快速支援部队**（Rapid Support Forces, RSF）。
Original English **Host**: There are two main sort of groups. I guess there's the Sudanese Armed Forces, and then there's a paramilitary group as well.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 快速支援部队，也就是 RSF。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: The RSF, yeah.
**主持人**: 是的，RSF。
Original English **Host**: The RSF.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 外界往往有一种误解，以为所有平民都坚定支持苏丹政府军（武装部队）。但我认为事实并非如此。人们之所以支持政府军，仅仅是因为在两股恶势力之间，他们觉得政府军相对来说是稍微安全一点的选择。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: There is this sense of everybody is behind the Sudanese Armed Forces. And I don't think that's the case. I think they just think that's the safest one of the two groups.
**主持人**: 两害相权取其轻。
Original English **Host**: of two.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 没错。所以大家表面上会附和说：“不，我们支持军方。” 但我们心里很清楚，正规军在这场战争之前，本身就参与了无数疯狂的罪恶行径。我和 Wala 今天之所以会沦为难民生活在加拿大这个国家，从根本上说就是苏丹军队长期独裁统治、高压迫害民众导致大家不得不逃亡的直接副产品。 在苏丹本土，如果把这番真话说出口，会是一件极其危险、招致杀身之祸的事情。 但与此同时，当我回溯历史根源，**快速支援部队**（RSF）本身同样也是苏丹正规军一手培养出来的产物！RSF 当初完全就是由苏丹正规军和政府亲手扶植、训练并合法化建立起来的准军事力量，是统治者任由其壮大成如今模样的。 当然毫无疑问，在当前所犯下的种族暴行与杀戮中，绝大多数——甚至 99% 的恶行——都是由 RSF 干下的，而且在某种程度上，他们还嚣张地亲自记录并传播自己的暴行。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Yeah. So, everybody will be like, "No, we're with the army." But we know the army is complicit in doing some crazy things before this. Me and Wala's presence here in this country is literally a byproduct of how the army itself has ruled Sudan and how it has pressured people to leave the country, right? And when I say that in Sudan, it's a really dangerous thing to say, right? But at the same time, I also go back and I say the RSF itself is also a byproduct of the army itself. It was literally a paramilitary that was created by the army, by the government, and it was allowed to to be established as what it is. There is no doubt that the atrocities right now, the vast majority of it, 99% of it is done by the RSF, and they documented on on their own by themselves, really in a sense.
**主持人**: 如果你在苏丹说错了话……
Original English **Host**: If you say the wrong thing in Sudan...
**Mamoun Hassan**: 你就会直接被杀掉。一旦你的话被曲解或者被恶意误读，瞬间就会丧命。你明白我的意思吗？
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: You get killed. Immediately if it was misunderstood, if it was misinterpreted, if you You know what I mean?
**Wala Hassanein**: 就像我们此刻在探讨背后的历史哲学与深层原因，这种思辨在苏丹当地根本是不可能存在的，完全没有容身之地。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Like you like trying to be philosophical like how we are right now, right? That's not a that's not a thing.
**主持人**: 根本行不通。
Original English **Host**: thing, right?
**Mamoun Hassan**: 现在的局面是，有一方正在接受来自某些**外部势力的资金与军火支持**，这股势力在眼下这一刻正在给苏丹造成更具毁灭性的破坏。正因如此，舆论才会产生如此严重的分歧。但不可否认的是，眼下造成绝大多数残酷伤害的罪魁祸首，正是 RSF。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: There is a side that's being like funded from some outside that's actually causing more damage right now at the moment. So, that's why there is this division. But yeah, there is a side that's doing a lot more harm right now, but which is the RSF.
### 加拿大的角色、生存危机与希望之光 **主持人**: 我们刚才谈到了其他外部国家。我们也可以谈谈加拿大，以及加拿大政府在这场危机中是否存在不愿介入或缺乏行动的态度。我们来聊聊加拿大吧。
Original English **Host**: We talk about other countries. We can talk a little bit about Canada and then sort of perhaps its lack of of of getting involved here. Well, let's talk about Canada.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 好的。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Yeah.
**主持人**: 好的。
Original English **Host**: Okay.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 加拿大对此是有共谋责任的，甚至在苏丹战火中扮演了难辞其咎的角色。加拿大在苏丹长期有业务运作，比如在苏丹经营长达数十年的**石油公司**。这些跨国企业至今仍在这个国家缴纳税款。为什么我们从官方层面看不到任何有力的公开谴责？
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Canada is complicit. It's fully complicit in this war in Sudan. Canada has been has been operating in Sudan. Oil company that's in Sudan that's worked in Sudan for a long, long time. But these are still companies that are paying taxes in this country. Why do we not have any sort of condemnation?
**主持人**: 在你们开展前线人道救援的过程中，当你们身处前线现场时，你们心里会感到恐惧和担忧吗？
Original English **Host**: Through the work that you guys do, do you guys do you guys worry when you guys are are down there?
**Wala Hassanein**: 是的，我们非常担心。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Yes, we do.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 上次出行我坚决拒绝带她一起去。我根本不想让她涉险，完全不想带她去。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: I refused to take her last time. I didn't want to take her. I didn't want to take her.
**Wala Hassanein**: 因为任何意外都可能在任何一秒发生。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Anything could happen.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 举个例子，我们在喀土穆的办事处工作人员刚发来通报，称亲眼看到一架**武装无人机**刚刚从头顶上空盘旋飞过。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: Our office in Khartoum for instance, they were just reporting seeing an actual drone that was flying by.
**主持人**: 所以那里随时随地都会发生完全随机的暴力袭击，对吧？
Original English **Host**: So, there's like the random like acts of violence that happen, right?
**Mamoun Hassan**: 而且如果你在苏丹生了病……
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: If I fall sick in Sudan...
**Wala Hassanein**: 是的，上帝保佑千万别让我们有人病倒。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Yeah, God forbid one of us gets sick.
**Mamoun Hassan**: 一旦你病倒，你极有可能会直接死于**疟疾**。
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: If you get sick, like you're more likely to actually die of malaria in Sudan.
**Wala Hassanein**: 不论是疟疾……
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: Say malaria...
**Mamoun Hassan**: 还是**霍乱**，以及所有这类的流行病。因为那里的整个医疗公共系统已经彻底瘫痪、形同虚设，根本无法向平民提供救治。你可能仅仅是因为不小心吃错了变质食物，就……
Original English **Mamoun Hassan**: cholera, and all these kinds of things. Because the systems is just not non-existent in terms of like helping people. Like you can just eat the wrong food and...
**Wala Hassanein**: 更不用说生病了，那里连基本的**电力供应**都没有。人们几乎一整天都生活在完全断电的黑暗中，一天大概只能供电 1 个小时。 此外，获取干净水源也极其困难。对于我们来说，依靠他工作单位的资源保障才勉强能够获得这些基础物资；但如果换成我们孤立无援地留在那里，以现在的恶劣环境，我认为我们根本无法存活下去。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: And forget just getting sick. There's no electricity. People go without electricity for the whole day almost. They get it for like 1 hour. Also access to water is really difficult. Like for us it's through his work that we're able to get these things, but if we were left a little bit on our own I don't think we'll make it right now.
**主持人**: 我非常真切地感受到，我们今天能坐在这间温馨漂亮的房子里，享用着如此美味的家常菜肴，而与此同时，远方却有数以百万计的苏丹人民正处于绝望的水深火热之中。 当你想到街坊邻居对几千公里外的这种惨剧一无所知时，那种内心的挫败感有多强烈？在谈及苏丹的未来时，在你们眼中，希望究竟是什么模样的？
Original English **Host**: I am obviously acknowledge that we are sitting here in your beautiful home and we're having a lovely meal and there are millions of people who are desperate. How frustrating is it that you know, there are houses down the street who have no idea. I'm wondering what does hope look like for you when it comes to Sudan?
**Wala Hassanein**: 这种反差让人感到无比沮丧，也无比心碎。这正是为什么我们坚持利用自己的社交媒体平台发声，不断呼吁大家关注它，不停地向身边人讲述苏丹的故事。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: It's so it's so frustrating and it's so heartbreaking. And that's why we use like our social media platforms to talk about it. We talk to people about it.
**主持人**: 对于这个移民家庭而言，来自遥远故土的毁灭性战报，是一场永无休止的痛苦、呼吁与公众倡导的历练。推动他们前进的，是一份迫切的责任感——他们必须尽一切努力，确保国际社会绝不能将目光从苏丹移开。
Original English **Host**: For this family, news of the destruction from abroad is a constant exercise in grief, advocacy and education. Driven by an urgent necessity to ensure the global community does not look away.
**Wala Hassanein**: 看到自己正在不断唤起公众的关注，看到越来越多的人开始讨论苏丹并了解苏丹，这确实让我感到欣慰，也赋予了我很多希望。 甚至现在的学校也在自发为苏丹开展筹款募捐，我的孩子们和他们的同龄朋友也都在主动学习关于苏丹的知识。因此，我依然心怀希望。
Original English **Wala Hassanein**: I do feel good that I am raising awareness and people are talking more about Sudan and learning more about Sudan. So it does give me a lot of hope. And even schools are fundraising for Sudan at the moment and my children and their friends are learning about it. So I am hopeful.