--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-09-16' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x16LHhm9puQ speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - relationship - divorce - self-reflection - dating title: 导演乔·斯万博格访谈：离婚、情感操控反思与不再设限的未来 summary: 导演乔·斯万博格在访谈中分享了离婚后的情感经历及对新片《太阳永不落》的启发。他反思了自己在过往关系中的操控与防卫心理，表示目前正享受单身，并打算不再为未来的恋爱设定人为限制。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: personal-growth area: life-family project: [] people: - Joe Swanberg - Anna Martin companies_orgs: - The New York Times products_models: [] media_books: - Modern Love - The Sun Never Sets status: evergreen --- 大家好，我是安娜。在开始今天的节目之前，我想向大家介绍一下我们在《时报》的另一档节目，叫作 Popcast。这是我们的一档流行文化对话节目，由评论员约翰·卡拉马尼卡（John Caramanica）和记者乔·科斯卡雷利（Joe Coscarelli）主持。Popcast 现在每周都会推出音频和视频内容。我得告诉你们，我真的很喜欢它。如果你喜欢我们节目里的对话，那你一定会喜欢 Popcast。他们采访过像坏痞兔（Bad Bunny）、奥利维亚·罗德里戈（Olivia Rodrigo）、ASAP Rocky、安妮·海瑟薇（Anne Hathaway）等许多人。你可以在《纽约时报》应用程序中找到 Popcast。顺便说一句，如果你还不是订阅用户，在 app 里的第一个月是免费的。好了，回到我们的节目。
Original EnglishHey everyone, it's Anna. Before we get into today's show, I want to tell you about another show we have here at the Times called Popcast. It's our pop culture chat show hosted by critic John Karammonica and reporter Joe Koscarelli. Popcast is now weekly in audio and video. And I got to tell you, I love it. If you like conversations on our show, you will like Popcast. They've got interviews with people like Bab Bunny, Olivia Rodrigo, ASAP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, and so much more. You can find Popcast in the New York Times app, which by the way, if you aren't a subscriber yet, your first month in the app is free. All right, on to the show.
>> 爱 [音乐] 此时此刻，还有
Original English>> Love [music] now and
>> 坠入爱河。我爱
Original English>> fall in love. I love
>> 爱胜过一切。
Original English>> love stronger than anything.
>> 为了爱本身，
Original English>> For the love of love,
>> 而且我爱你胜过一切。
Original English>> and I love you more than anything.
>> 爱。
Original English>> Love.
### 混乱的关系与新片灵感 >> 这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这是《现代爱情》，今天我要和导演乔·斯万博格（Joe Swanberg）聊聊。
Original English>> From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love, and today I'm talking to director Joe Swanberg.
>> [音乐]
Original English>> [music]
>> 乔几乎将他全部的成年生活和职业生涯都奉献给了拍摄关于混乱复杂的情感关系的电影。你可能知道他的电影《酒友》（Drinking Buddies）或者 Netflix 剧集《随性所欲》（Easy）。这些作品讲的全都是爱情可以有多么复杂 [音乐]。某个人说了一套，心里想的其实完全相反。某天你醒来，对伴侣的感觉变了，却不知何故。有人 [音乐] 藏着秘密，然后一切彻底失控。就是那种混乱。乔在与妻子共同生活了 20 多年后分居，他的生活也陷入了混乱 [音乐]。不久之后，乔开始和一个更年轻的女性约会。这当然相当俗套，但问题是，乔自己也知道这很俗套 [音乐]。在我们的整场交谈中，我对他是如何坦率地面对自己所犯的错误以及从中汲取的一切教训感到十分惊讶。所以，今天乔和我讨论了这一切是如何启发了他的新电影《太阳永不落》（The Sun Never Sets）。我们聊到了他的离婚、中年危机，以及当爱情悬于一线时 [音乐]，你会感到自己有多么令人意外。
Original English>> Joe has spent pretty much his entire adult life and his career making movies about messy relationships. You might know his movie Drinking Buddies or the Netflix series Easy. And these are all about how complicated love can [music] be. Someone says one thing, they actually mean the total opposite. You wake up one day and you feel differently about your partner. You don't know why. Someone's [music] keeping secrets and everything spirals out of control. It's that kind of mess. Joe's life got messy after he and his wife separated after more than 20 years [music] together. And pretty soon after, Joe started seeing a younger woman. That is, of course, quite cliche, but the thing is, Joe knows it's cliche. [music] And throughout our conversation, I was really surprised by how open he was about the mistakes he made and everything you learn from them. So, today Joe and I discuss how all of this inspired his new movie, The Sun Never Sets. We get into his divorce, his midlife crisis, and how much you can surprise yourself [music] when there's love on the line.
>> 乔·斯万博格，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Original English>> Joe Swanberg, welcome to Modern Love.
>> 非常感谢。很高兴来到这里。来这里有点紧张。很高兴来这里。
Original English>> Thank you very much. Happy to be here. A little nervous to be here. Happy to be here.
>> 完全不用紧张。我们只是 [笑声] 随便聊聊。嗯，乔，你拍电影关注的是人际关系的灰色地带、那些混乱的事情、令人不适的事情、复杂的事情、真实的事情。我想问问你，关于混乱，究竟是什么让你如此感兴趣？[叹气]
Original English>> No nerves whatsoever. We're just [laughter] chatting. Um Joe, you make movies about the gray areas of relationships, the messy stuff, the uncomfortable stuff, the complicated stuff, the real stuff. I want to ask you what is it about mess that is so interesting to you? [sighs]
>> 是的，我觉得，嗯，从年轻时起，我就一直觉得电影有能力让我在这个世界上感觉不那么孤单，或者以某种特定的方式与陌生人产生连接，而且我一直觉得那些古怪、复杂、混乱的东西是最有感染力的。我喜欢看电影里角色说出或做出了某件事，而我曾以为全天下只有我一个人会有那种想法。而且我觉得面对混乱，你知道，有时候你审视自己的生活，只会觉得：“天哪，真是一场灾难。”就像，我怎么就……但你知道，
Original English>> Yeah, I think that it um from a young age I always felt that movies had the power to make me feel less alone in the world or maybe connected to strangers in particular ways and it was always the weird complicated messy stuff that I felt was most impactful. I love seeing a movie where the characters say or do something that I thought I was the only person in the world who had that thought. And I think also with the mess, you know, sometimes you can look at your own life and just think, "Oh my god, this is a disaster." Like, how did I But you know,
>> 噢，我可从来没那样过，乔。真的。[笑声]
Original English>> oh, I've never done that, Joe. Actually, [laughter]
>> 在电影里看到这些是很有力量的。你知道，会有这样一种感觉：噢，好吧，我……这可能不太妙，但我……我与全人类相连。我与宇宙合为一体，我不是唯一一个，你知道，经历过这种处境，或者以这种特定方式搞砸了某件事的人。所以我认为，通过保持真实并试图深入这种混乱，在某种意义上……还有一种从另一端，你知道，从创作者这一端伸出手去并渴望产生连接的感觉。
Original English>> there's power seeing it in a movie. You know, there's this feeling of like, oh, okay, I'm This might not be great, but I'm I'm connected to humanity. I'm one with the universe and I'm not the only person, you know, who's dealt with this situation or who has screwed something up in this particular way. And so I think by being real and trying to dive into the mess, there's some sense of uh reaching out and a desire to connect still from the other side, you know, from the maker side.
>> 是啊。我们大家在某种程度上都处在同一种泥潭里。我能问问你吗，你觉得自己的感情关系比一般人更混乱吗？比如从一到“混乱”的尺度上，你是不是排在很靠前的位置？
Original English>> Yeah. We're kind of all in this muck together. Can I ask you like do you feel like you have messier relationships than the average person? Like on a scale of one to mess, are you really high up there?
>> 不，我不这么觉得。我……嗯，我和那个夺走我童贞、与我初吻的人结婚了。所以，从 18 岁到 38 岁，我一直处于一段单一的情感关系中。所以，我不认为自己很混乱，或者会被混乱的人际关系所吸引。而且我能拿来审视的，也只有我离婚后的那些关系。 我倒觉得自己是充满戏剧性的，而不是混乱。而且比起混乱，我更被戏剧化、高度戏剧化的关系所吸引。我会感到不适。是的。我……我认为混乱就像是……
Original English>> No, I don't think so. I Well, I married the person I lost my virginity to and had my first kiss with. So, from the age of 18 to 38, I was in a one single relationship. So, I don't think I'm messy or drawn to messy relationships. And I only have my postivorce relationships to look at. I would say I'm dramatic, not messy. And I'm drawn to drama, high drama relationships more than messy. I get uncomfortable. Yeah. I I think to messy is like
>> 你的烂事全摊在大街上，而且……
Original English>> your shit's all out on the street and
>> 你知道，我不知道。倒不是说我干不出来，但我确实会感到尴尬，并且倾向于让我的生活保持大致井井有条，而不是混乱邋遢到让我……你知道，弄得一团糟，我都忘了正在发生什么，然后，你知道，半夜三更给人打电话。我……我太尊重 [笑声] 界限之类的东西了，懂吗？我有点……而且我的生活太规律了。我有孩子。一半的时间，在正常的上学日，我早上醒来，做午餐，你知道，去当实地考察旅行的监护陪同之类的，我不可能把太多混乱扯进那种生活里。
Original English>> you know, I don't know. Not that I'm incapable of it, but I do cringe and tend to like my life tidyish as opposed to like so sloppy that I, you know, it's all over the place and I'm forgetting what's going on and I'm reh, you know, calling people in the middle of the night. I'm like, I'm too respectful of [laughter] boundaries and stuff, you know? I'm a little and my life is too normalized. I have kids. Half the time I'm on a regular school day waking up in the morning making lunches and you know going to chaperone field trips and stuff like I can't drag too much mess into that.
>> 但另一方面，我认为戏剧性就像是高情绪强度的博弈，即使表面上干净整洁。它充斥着悬而未决的焦灼不安之类，或者内部权力的较量，你知道，我不知道，某种让人觉得鲜活、富有戏剧性、令人兴奋又疯狂的东西。
Original English>> But drama on the other hand I think is like high emotional stakes even if it's clean and neat. it's roing with unsettled discomfort or something or challenges to power within, you know, I don't know, some something that feels like alive and dramatic and exciting and crazy.
>> 我笑是因为我完全赞同。我很喜欢这种将“混乱”与“戏剧性”区分开的角度。我要用这两个维度来说，你拍了这部新电影，叫《太阳永不落》。在我看来，这部电影，电影里的人际关系既相当混乱，又具有很高的戏剧性。你同意吗？同意。
Original English>> I I'm laughing because I totally agree. I like this distinction between messiness and drama. I am going to use those two scales to say you made this new movie. It's called The Sun Never Sets. To me, this movie, the relationships in the movie are both quite messy and quite high drama. Would you agree? Yes.
>> 好的。太棒了。
Original English>> Okay. Wonderful.
>> 这部电影记录了我人生中一段充满戏剧性且混乱的时期。我会说……
Original English>> This movie chronicles um dramatic and messy period of my life. I would say
>> 而且你说过你的……我是说，我……我想问的就是，我想知道是什么启发了……我们等会儿也会聊到电影，但我想知道是什么激发了……你生活中究竟发生了什么，启发了这部电影。[哧鼻声]
Original English>> and you said your I mean I I do this is the question I want to know what inspired we we'll get into the film too, but I want to know what inspired what was happening in your life that inspired this this film. [snorts]
>> [叹气兼倒抽气]
Original English>> [sighs and gasps]
>> 我当时正经历一次分手，而且我觉得自己对感情的破裂负有极大责任。我采取的那些举动、产生的那些想法，原本意在表现得成熟、充满爱意和慷慨，但实际上却极具控制欲、不健康，并且你知道，最终对我而言成了一场噩梦，但又带着一种滑稽的方式，同时也是噩梦般的，你知道 [笑声]。
Original English>> I was going through a breakup and I felt that I was highly responsible for the reason the relationship was falling apart. that moves that I made and thoughts that I had that were intended to be mature and loving and generous were in fact manipulative, unhealthy and you know ultimately nightmarish for me but in a funny way but also in a nightmarish way you know [laughter]
>> 我只是……我只是觉得我……你知道，当时我和一个比我小 11 岁的年轻女孩约会，而我摆出一副“我很懂这个世界，让我来帮你弄清楚什么对你最好”的先生派头，
Original English>> and I just I just think that I you know I was dating a younger person 11 years younger than me and I was very Mr. I know the world and I let me let me help you figure out what's best for you
>> 直到突然之间，这一切在我周围彻底崩塌，然后我就想，天哪，首先我什么都不懂，其次，这所有的愚蠢戏剧、混乱和麻烦全都是我造成的，所以我就……
Original English>> until suddenly it all came crashing down around me and then I was like oh my god first of all I don't know anything and second of all I caused all this stupid drama and messiness and chaos and so I was
>> “我必须得就此拍部电影。”
Original English>> I need to make a movie about it.
>> 是的。我就是觉得，它就在这里，就是这个。我是说，这正是我所被吸引的那类东西，而且我觉得我可以在这里做出能触达人们并与大家产生共鸣的作品。
Original English>> Yeah. I just felt like here's here it is. I mean, this is this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm drawn to and I think I can make something here that reaches people and connects with people.
### 初恋、婚姻与早年生活 >> 让我们把时间推到与那位年轻女性的关系之前，甚至更早，聊聊那段在你离婚之后的事情。
Original English>> Let's start even before this relationship with the younger woman and talk about this was after your divorce.
>> 嗯。
Original English>> Um,
>> 你是什么时候遇到后来成为你妻子的那个女人的？你之前已经说过是你把童贞献给的人，不过我剧透了。你是什么时候、又是怎么认识这个人的？我们相识于
Original English>> when did you meet the woman who would become your wife and who you already said you lost your virginity too, but I'm spoiling. What how when and how did you meet this this person? We met
南伊利诺伊大学卡本代尔分校电影学院的大一。嗯，后来当我们读完电影学院后，我们搬去了芝加哥。 我想我当时就像是做好了开创事业的准备，而我有点觉得，好吧，这段关系就顺其自然地维持下去。
Original Englishfreshman year of film school in Carbondale, Illinois, Southern Illinois University. Um, so then when we finished film school, we moved to Chicago and I guess I was like ready to get my career going and I sort of just thought, okay, this relationship is just going to exist.
>> 嗯。
Original English>> Yeah.
>> 然后她开始说，我们……你知道，到那时我们已经在一起 5 年了。好像在说“现在是什么情况？”
Original English>> And she started to say, we, you know, we've been together for 5 years at this point. like what's up here?
>> 像是“接下来该怎样了”那种意思。
Original English>> Like what's the next step kind of thing.
>> 是的。而我有点像是在想：我不知道。我们还这么年轻，对吧？我是说，我……我不知道。我们真的要结婚并做所有那些事情吗？
Original English>> Yeah. And I was kind of like I don't know. We're so young, right? I mean I I I don't know. Are we like really going to get married and do all of that stuff?
>> 嗯哼。
Original English>> Uhhuh.
>> 但到了恋爱 6 年、7 年的时候，那种感觉就像是，我们几乎就等于结婚了。你知道，我们已经开始一起创作作品，一起去参加电影节，并且
Original English>> But at some point like 6 years, 7 years into the relationship, it was like it almost feels that we're married. You know, we had started making work together and going to film festivals and
>> 我们俩就是一对感情非常牢固的情侣，你知道的。于是我们在 2007 年夏天结了婚。当时我 25 岁。
Original English>> we just were a solid couple, you know, that. And so we got married in the summer of 2007. I was 25 years old.
>> 哇。真年轻。是的。
Original English>> Wow. Young. Yeah.
>> 而且绝对算得上年轻，但当时也是谈了 7 年恋爱了，你知道。
Original English>> And totally young, but also 7 years into a relationship, you know.
>> 是的。
Original English>> Yeah.
>> 嗯，那真的很棒。我……我就是很喜欢结婚的状态。我觉得那特别酷。我们结婚几年后，我儿子出生了。那真是一段非常美好而且
Original English>> Um it was really great. I I just loved being married. I thought it was very cool. We were married for a couple years before my son was born. Then that was a really beautiful and
>> 很棒的
Original English>> awesome
### 婚姻裂痕与走向离婚 ……新篇章。然后在那之后四年半，我的女儿出生了。我们两人的事业当时都发展得非常顺利。
Original Englishnew chapter. And then my daughter was born four and a half years after that. Our careers were both going very well.
>> 确实事情挺多的。对。
Original English>> It's a lot. Yeah.
>> 但在这背后，［叹气］在我这边，对于我是谁、我正在成为怎样的人，有着太多的疑问。
Original English>> But underneath it, there was [sighs] on my side too many questions about who I was and who I was becoming
>> 这种疑问让我觉得，天哪，我好像从来没有真正了解过自己。我就是从来没有过这样一段时间，
Original English>> in a way that I was just like, man, I just never got to know myself. I just never had a period of time
>> 去跟不同的人约会，去尝试、去探索，去对自己有任何了解。而且你知道，我当时在拍这些情感关系的电影。我就有点觉得，哇，我这辈子竟然只谈过一段恋爱。
Original English>> where I dated people, where I experimented and explored, where I learned anything about myself. And you know, I was making these relationship movies. And I was sort of like, wo, I've only ever been in one relationship.
>> 我想确认一下，这是你的第……她她是你的第一个女朋友。她是你的第一任……
Original English>> And I want to be clear, this was your first she she was your first girlfriend. She was your first
>> 第一任，也是唯一一任。
Original English>> first and only.
>> 哇。
Original English>> Wow.
>> 是的。我是说，所以你最终还是离婚了。对。
Original English>> Yes. I mean, so you do end up getting a divorce. Yeah.
>> 那你们离婚的时候在一起多久了？有多少年？
Original English>> And And how long had you been together when you divorced? How many years?
>> 我们是 99 年认识的，然后在 2019 年正式走完法律程序离婚。所以总共算起来是 20 年。对。
Original English>> We met in 99 and we got officially legally divorced in 2019. So it was 20 years all told. Yeah.
>> 跟我讲讲最后到底是怎么走到终点并离婚的。
Original English>> Tell me how it actually ended and you got divorced.
>> 你知道，其实从来没有……没有缺乏爱，或者诸如此类的事。现在依然不缺。我的意思是，我们住的地方就隔着一个街区，而且我们离婚并不是因为彼此的关系变得糟糕透顶之类的，
Original English>> You know, there was never a lot a lack of love or anything like that. There still isn't. I mean, we live a block away from each other and we didn't get divorced because our relationship became horrible or anything like that,
>> 但我们确实在婚姻接近尾声的时候决定实行开放式婚姻。而在那段时间里，我只是觉得这最终彻底动摇了许多东西。另一件发生的事是，我们没能解决很多经历过的老问题。对我而言，我们就是精疲力尽了。而在那年夏天，我们就决定了——整个过程并没有充满狗血戏剧冲突之类的。奇怪的是，它反而相当平静、迅速。
Original English>> but we did decide to open our marriage towards the tail end of it. And during that period of time, I just think it finally destabilized a lot of things. The other thing that was going on was that we had failed to solve a lot of issues we had experienced. And to me, we ran out of steam. And that summer, we just decided it was not full of drama or anything like that. It was weirdly kind of quiet and quick.
>> 而且呃，对我来说感觉就像……对。就像两位拳击手，你知道，终场铃声响起，谁也没有把对方击倒，也没有明确的赢家之类的。我们就这样走回各自的角落，一下子坐倒在那里，那股战斗的劲头已经从我们身体里消退了，你知道。
Original English>> And uh to me, it just felt Yeah. like two boxers who, you know, the final bell rings and neither has knocked the other one out and there's no clear winner or anything like that. and we just like went to our corners and pllopped down and the fight had like come left us, you know,
>> 我觉得如果我们身上还有更多力气去争取，我们本来会继续维持婚姻的。我非常爱她。我是跟她一起长大的。我觉得她是最棒的。
Original English>> and I think had we had more fight in us, we would have stayed married. I love her so much. I grew up with her. I think she is the best.
>> 一个极好的母亲，一个了不起的伴侣，一位优秀的电影人和艺术家。她真的是最酷的。
Original English>> An awesome mother, an amazing partner, a great filmmaker and artist. Like she is the coolest.
>> 但你知道，20 年之后，我只是在想，我们怎么还在同样的问题里反复打转？然后突然之间，毫无预警地，我觉得在外人看来我们从一对完美夫妻……
Original English>> But, you know, after 20 years, I just was like, how are we still cycling through these same issues and then suddenly all at once with no fanfare, I think we went from looking like the perfect couple from the outside
>> 走到了离婚。我的意思是，这非常奇怪，现在想起来甚至觉得不可思议，它就这样……
Original English>> to divorced. I mean, it was very weird, almost mysterious as I think about it now that it just
>> 发生了，而且发生得非常快。
Original English>> happened and then it happened fast.
### 离婚后的界限与约会期 >> 离婚……我不知道怎么说，生效了，或者该用什么合适的词？你离婚了。你正在迈入人生的这个新阶段。在此之前，这是你第一段、最长、也是唯一的恋爱关系。当你思考，你知道，横在你面前的单身生活时，
Original English>> The divorce, I don't know, goes through, what's the right word? You get divorced. You're entering into this new stage of your life. This was your first and longest and and and only relationship up to this point. When you contemplate, you know, what lies ahead of you, single life,
>> 你害怕什么，又在期待什么？我猜这两方面都有吧。
Original English>> what are you what are you scared of and what are you looking forward to? I assume there's both sides here.
>> 我们离婚时我的感受是，我再也不想结婚了。我已经试过了。
Original English>> What I felt when we got divorced was I never want to get married again. I've tried that.
>> 而且我当时觉得，如果我和克里斯都解决不了这个问题，那我跟任何人都解决不了。
Original English>> And I felt that if Chris and I could not figure that out, I could not figure that out with anybody.
>> 呵。
Original English>> Huh.
>> 并不是说我不想谈恋爱，而是我不想再去走法律层面的结婚流程，你知道，让国家以那种方式介入我的生活，或者，你知道，可能再次面临离婚。
Original English>> Not that I didn't want to have relationships, but I did not want to go through the process of legally getting married and, you know, involving the state in my life in that way or, you know, potentially getting divorced again.
>> 然后我想，我不想再生孩子了。我有两个孩子。
Original English>> And I thought, I don't want to have more kids. I have two kids.
>> 他们的余生都会需要我，即便他们渐渐长大，就像我的生活中依然需要我的父母一样。
Original English>> they're going to need me for the rest of their lives, even as they get older, the way I need my parents in my life still.
>> 我不想把那个过程重新来一遍。作为一个父亲，我已经走了这么远，我想继续这段旅程，就像我们依然处于婚姻中、并且克里斯和我本来就不会再生更多孩子那样。
Original English>> And I don't want to start that process over. I've sort of come this far as a father and I want to continue this journey as if we were still married and as if Chris and I weren't going to have more kids.
>> 我不需要跟别的人去重新经历、重新开始这一切。所以，这就是我离婚后最强烈的两种感受：我不想再结婚，我不想再生孩子。
Original English>> I don't need to like go do that and start that with someone else. So, those were my two strongest postivorce feelings. I don't want to get married again. I don't want to have more kids.
>> 这是你会……呃……明确大声对别人表达出来的想法吗？好的。你当时就这样说出来的。
Original English>> And was this something that you um like articulated out loud to your Okay. You were like saying this.
>> 我身边没有一个人对这些表态产生过误解。
Original English>> No one in my life was confused about those statements.
>> 好吧。［笑声］
Original English>> Okay. [laughter]
>> 明确地表达出来，就好像它……［清喉咙］
Original English>> Being asserted meaningfully like it [clears throat] was
>> 你的信条就是不再结婚、不再要小孩。
Original English>> your journal is just no more marriage, no more kids.
>> 确实是这样。我去约会的时候，这就会是初次约会的谈话内容：“先跟你说清楚，我不想再结婚了，我也不想再生孩子了。所以如果你想的话，那我不是合适你的人。”
Original English>> Literally, I would I would go on dates and that would be first date conversation. Just so you know, I don't want to get married again and I don't want to have more kids. So if you do, I'm not your guy.
>> 什么？我们现在说的全是否定句。你不想结婚，你不想要孩子。那在那段约会期里，你真正在寻找的是什么？
Original English>> What? We're talking in the negative. You don't want marriage. You don't want kids. What were you looking for in this period of dating?
>> 我不知道。我觉得如果我对这个问题有个好答案的话，我本可以拥有更好的亲密关系。我想我当时主要是围绕着自己“不想要什么”来定义这些关系的。
Original English>> I don't know. I think I would have had better relationships if I had a good answer to that. I think I was primarily defining these relationships around what I didn't want.
>> 挺有意思。
Original English>> Interesting.
>> 完全不知道自己想要什么。
Original English>> And had no idea what I wanted.
>> 呵。
Original English>> Huh.
>> 至于我到底想要什么，我想我的感觉大概是，等我见到了或许我就会知道吧。
Original English>> And what I did want, I guess my feeling was like, I'll know it when I see it, perhaps.
>> 我自己甚至都不清楚。
Original English>> I don't even know.
>> 那当你见到的时候，你知道了吗？
Original English>> And did you know when you saw it?
>> 并没有。我一直在想，天哪，我都快 40 岁了，我对自己实在太了解了。
Original English>> Not really. I I thought constantly, oh my gosh, I'm like almost 40 years old and I just know myself too well.
>> 我太不知变通了，太墨守成规了。我现在像个彻底的大人了。我就是觉得特别僵化。觉得自己特别……
Original English>> I'm too inflexible and I'm too set in my ways. I'm like a grownup now. And I just I felt so rigid. I felt so
>> 中年。而且你知道，我当时有点脾气古怪，［笑声］你知道，我不知道。我是个挺有趣的人，我也喜欢去约会，倒不是说我成天只知道怨天尤人和抱怨，但在我内心的某个地方，就像有一根僵硬的棍子，不再像我年轻时刚走进婚姻时那么有弹性了。然后……
Original English>> middle-aged. And you know, I just was kind of cranky and [laughter] you know, I don't know. I'm I'm a fun person. Like I I like going on dates. Like it wasn't that I was just like bitter and complaining all the time, but somewhere in me was like a stiff rod that wasn't flexible the way it was when I was young and got into my marriage. And
>> 你说你觉得自己人到中年。那在……你当时是在跟谁约会？你都跟什么人出去？年纪更大的吗？比如你是跟同龄人约会、更年轻的、还是年纪更大的？当时是……
Original English>> and you're saying you felt middle-aged. Was that who were you dating? Who were you going out? Was it older? Like were you dating people who were your age, younger, older? Like what was the
>> 各种各样的组合都有。但我得说，呃……
Original English>> all of those combinations? But I would say that um
>> 年轻女性对我那套“我不想再结婚，我不想再生孩子”的说辞，要反感得多得多。
Original English>> younger women were much less put off by my I don't want to get married again. I don't want to have more kids.
>> 呵。
Original English>> Huh.
>> 因为我想，你知道，我当时 38 岁。
Original English>> Because I think, you know, I was 38 at the time.
>> 嗯。
Original English>> Mhm.
>> 我想如果你是 38 岁，还没结婚，并且可能想要孩子，你跟我坐下来约会一次就会觉得：“行了，老兄，敬谢不敏。”
Original English>> And I think if you're 38 and you aren't married and you maybe want kids, you sit down on one date with me and go, "Okay, homeboy, no thank you."
>> 对。嗨。而如果你 29 岁，
Original English>> Yeah. Hi. And if you're 29,
>> 你就会觉得：“好吧，我甚至都不知道自己想不想结婚或者要孩子。”所以，自然而然地，我最终交往的大多是年轻女性，但我认为那是因为我的底线对她们来说不那么算个阻碍。你知道，这很有趣。你知道，更容易……更容易滑入这样的一种关系里，感觉就像，未来的事是以后的事，
Original English>> you go, "Well, yeah, I don't even know if I want to get married or have kids." So, organically, I was ending up in relationships with younger women, but I think that's because my red lines were less a factor. You know, it it was just fun. You know, e easier easier to slip into relationships where it was sort of like, well, the future is the future
>> 而且你知道，这家伙说他不想结婚也不想要孩子，但眼下谁在乎呢？我们现在就只是，你知道，一起出去玩，去吃高档晚餐，你知道，开开心心地，去看电影点映。就像，这样挺好的，这对我目前来说就足够了。
Original English>> and you know, this guy says he doesn't want to get married or have kids, but who cares right now? We're just going to, you know, hang out and go to nice dinners and, you know, have fun and go to movie screenings. Like, that's fine. That's enough for me right now.
>> 好的。我接下来想说的，是带着理解去说的，而且你知道，这确实有点陈词滥调，对吧？我是说，这……
Original English>> Okay. This is what I say with like compassion and and, you know, it is a bit of a cliche, right? I mean, it's
>> 百分之百是。那你有……我们直接点明吧，年纪偏大的离婚男士。对。好的，就是这样。你知道，身边跟着年轻女性，你对此有什么感受吗？很显然你也意识到这一点了，对吧？
Original English>> 100%. And did you have and let's just articulate it older divorced. Yeah. Okay. There we go. You know, with the younger woman, did you have feelings about that? It's it's clear that that occurred to you, right?
>> 我完全明白自己看起来有多滑稽，一个 40 岁的男人整天跟 20 多岁的女人混在一起，
Original English>> I absolutely understood how hilarious I looked, a 40-year-old guy running around with women in their 20s,
>> 刚离婚不久。
Original English>> recently divorced.
>> 你知道，我的妻子也……或者说前妻，也是芝加哥电影界的一个重要人物。你知道，这就好比，我走到哪里都不觉得自己是个籍籍无名的人。我走到哪里都觉得自己看起来就像是个遭遇中年危机的刻板典型男人。真的是百分之百符合。
Original English>> You know, my wife is al or ex-wife is also a big person in the Chicago film comm. You know, it's like I I didn't go places and sense that I was anonymous. I went places and sensed I look like a midlife crisis cliche guy. Like 100%.
>> 你感觉如何？我是说你当时心里怎么想？
Original English>> How do you feel? Like how do you feel?
>> 完全无所谓。对。去他妈的别人怎么看。我的意思是，我当时就想：“这是我自己的人生。我不会因为你觉得我逊就不去过我的人生。”你知道，
Original English>> Totally fine. Yeah. [ __ ] other people. I mean, I was like, "This is my life. I'm not going to live it because you think I'm lame." You know,
>> 我知道这很傻。我知道这看起来很荒谬，但它之所以会成为一种刻板印象，是因为它确实普遍存在。我是说，这呃，你知道，
Original English>> I know it's silly. I know it looks ridiculous, but the reason it's a cliche is it's a real thing. I mean, it's uh, you know,
>> 你知道，你提到了各种诸如此类的顾虑，或者说可能由于处于不同的人生阶段等原因而在跟年轻女性约会时会有的迟疑，不管怎样，但你依然继续这么做？而且，为什么从你的风险收益权衡来看，依然觉得年轻女性对自己而言最合适？我只是对此感到好奇。
Original English>> you know, you're talking about all these kind of misgivings, I don't know, hesitencies perhaps you might have with dating a younger woman just because of the life stage, whatever, but like you still continued to do it? It's like, and why the sort of riskreward calibration on your end was still like younger women are still the best match for me? I'm I'm just curious.
>> 是的。好的。嗯，说句大实话，我的选择面很有限……
Original English>> Yes. Okay. Well, to be totally honest with you, I had a limited
择偶范围。我没办法打个响指，就能让一个年纪相仿、同时也对我有意思的人出现在我的生活里，以至于我可以说自己是为了和年轻女性约会而在拒绝那样的人。[笑声]
Original English dating pool. I don't get to snap my fingers and have, you know, an age appropriate, also interested in me person show up in my life in a way that I would say that I was turning people like that down to date younger women. [laughter]
>> 好吧。
Original English >> Okay.
>> 我是个离过婚的、在芝加哥的那种老套笑话式的男人，而且我也不，你知道，随便怎样吧。
Original English >> I'm a divorced, you know, kind of cliche joke guy in Chicago and I don't, you know, whatever.
>> 我懂。是的。
Original English >> I hear that. Yeah.
>> 而且，我有两个孩子，我深度参与他们的生活，这也让我有点难找对象，因为我没有像单身人士那样的大把自由和空闲时间，可以整天在工作日晚上出去玩或者做其他什么事。你看，我真的有一半时间是过着一种独立电影人的生活，有点像单身自由的人，而另一半时间我基本上过着单身全职爸爸的生活。所以这种对立也限制了我的择偶范围。而且我并不是——我并不是只和年轻女性约会，但我离婚后很快就有了一个女朋友。
Original English >> And also, I have two kids whose lives I'm majorly involved in, which also makes me a little hard to date because I don't have a ton of freedom and free time like a single person to go out on week nights all the time and whatever else. You know, I really am living half my time as a kind of um independent filmmaker, you know, sort of single free person and the other half of my time I'm living as a single stay-at-home dad basically. And so that dichotomy also limits my dating pool. And I I I'm not I'm not exclusively dating younger women, but I very quickly post divorce have a girlfriend.
>> 明白。
Original English >> Sure.
>> 她是——电影里达科塔（Dakota）的角色是两次离婚后恋情的融合体。
Original English >> Who is um Dakota's character in the movie is an amalgam of two post-dorce relationships.
>> 明白了。
Original English >> Got
>> 她的——她的性格特征之类的基本上是围绕我两次重大的离婚后恋情构建的。不过我也曾和一个洛杉矶的电影人约会过，她比我小几岁，但并没有小很多，算比较接近我的年龄。但这是个想结婚并组建自己家庭的人。你知道，那些关系就算开始了，一旦很清楚我不会更进一步，或者说我并不打算往那个方向发展，过一段时间往往就逐渐淡下去了。所以，我觉得我最终就是和年轻一些的女性约会了。我并没有特意要把这当成任务去做，也不是只对这个感兴趣，但是——
Original English >> her her her character traits and things are sort of built around my two big post-dorce relationships. But also, I was dating an LA filmmaker who was um a few years younger than me, but not, you know, sort of closer to my age. But this was someone who wanted to get married and have a family of her own. You know, those relationships, even if they got started, they tended to tail off after a period of time when it was clear that I wasn't going to go deeper or wasn't really available to move in that direction. So, I just feel like I ended up dating younger women. I was not on a mission to do that, nor was I exclusively interested in that, but
>> 我明白。那么，你开始和一个更年轻的女性约会。她二十八九岁。
Original English >> I appreciate that. So, you start dating a younger woman. She's in her late 20s.
>> 这是那种第一次约会你就说“这就是我的理想状态，不结婚、不要孩子”的情况吗？比如，一开始你就跟她说了那一整套套话吗？
Original English >> Was this the kind of thing where first date you were like, and here's my ideal, no marriage, no kids. Like, did you go through that whole spiel with with her at the beginning?
### 开诚布公的约会规则 >> 她以一种让我觉得“哦，这个人想以一种带有性吸引的方式交往，挺让人激动的”方式主动找了我。我们去喝了一杯，然后我对她说，我——你知道，我处于非一夫一妻制状态。我不想结婚。我不想生孩子。你知道，我基本上交代了整套说法，就像是：这就是给你的重大警告，现在就从这件事抽身离开吧。基本上就像是：快自救吧。
Original English >> So, she sort of initiated with me in a way that I was like, "Oh, this person wants to hang out in a sexual way. That's exciting." And we got a drink and I said to her, I, you know, I I'm in I'm non- monogamous. I don't want to get married. I don't want to have kids. You know, I gave the whole basically like this is your big caution to walk away from this thing right now. Like, save yourself basically.
>> 所以你对她说了这些。
Original English >> So, you say this to her.
>> 嗯。她是什么反应？她是怎样回应的？
Original English >> Mhm. She's like, "What? How does she respond?"
>> 嗯，她说：“好的，我觉得非一夫一妻制是我能接受的。”而且她也差不多是那种态度：“我并不在乎结不结婚，我也不知道自己想不想生小孩。所以这些都不是一票否决项。你知道，这——嗯，你知道，差不多就是不会阻止我看看后续发展。”
Original English >> Um, she said, "Okay, like I think that non- monogamy is something that I'm down with." And she also was kind of like, "I don't really care about getting married and I don't know if I want to have kids. So, these aren't deal breakers. you know, this is um you know, kind of not you know, not going to prevent me from seeing where this goes.
>> 听到这些你感觉如何？
Original English >> And how did you feel hearing that?
>> 我的感觉是，哦，太好了。有一扇门打开了，可以去发展一段关系。我显然是想处于亲密关系中的。我喜欢这样。我觉得这很棒。而且在有过一段非常酷、非常棒的20年婚姻之后，我知道亲密关系的力量。你知道，有一个伴侣会以一种非常有意义且强大的方式构建你的生活，你知道，能和一个人一起在这个世界上前行，你支持对方，对方也支持你，你知道，你们有共同的项目，我不仅仅是指工作上的项目，而是人生的项目，你知道。所以，我一方面渴望并对此持开放态度，但与此同时，本质上又在表示我能走的路极其狭窄。就像是，如果你想和我谈恋爱，那就会有一种非常走钢丝的气氛，你知道，我们基本上随时都有可能掉下去。
Original English >> I felt like, oh, great. This is there's a doorway open to have a relationship. I obviously want to be in relationships. I I like it. I think they're great. And having been in a really cool, awesome 20-year marriage, I know the power of them. you know, you it structures your life in a really meaningful and powerful way to have a partner, you know, to go through the world with someone who you've got their back and they've got your back and you know, you have mutual projects and I don't just mean work projects, but life projects, you know. So, I'm I'm like both looking for it and open to it and then simultaneously essentially being like the path that I can walk is razor thin. Like if you want to be in a relationship with me, it's going to have like a very tight rope energy to it that you know we could fall off of at any point basically.
>> 岌岌可危。我是说，确实如此。但她说：“是的，你知道，比如那些事情并不——”
Original English >> Precarious. I mean, totally. But she says, "Yeah, you know, like those things don't."
>> 她很从容。她28岁，她心想：“好吧，放松点。”就像是这没什么大不了的。
Original English >> She's chill. She's 28 years old and she's like, "Okay, relax." Like it's not that big of a deal.
>> 哦，
Original English >> Oh,
>> 你知道，就像是无所谓。她看着我心想，如果我们一起出去玩、睡上几次，那也挺好的。这跟我目前大部分的约会生活差不多。而我看着她心想：“让我先给你打个5年后的预防针。”你知道，差不多就是那种动态，
Original English >> you know, it's like whatever. She's looking at me and going like, if we hang out and sleep together a couple times, that's fine. That resembles most of my dating life right now. And I'm looking at her going, "Let me caution you about 5 years into the future." You know, it's like that that's sort of the dynamic,
>> 哥们。是的。是的。
Original English >> bro. Yeah. Yeah.
>> 确实。确实。就像是，放轻松点，老兄。
Original English >> Exactly. Exactly. Like, chill out, man.
[音乐]
Original English [music]
>> 不要走开。
Original English >> Stay with us.
>> [音乐]
Original English >> [music]
### 迅速升温与防备心理 >> 于是你们开始约会了。
Original English >> And so you begin seeing each other.
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> 事情进展如何？
Original English >> And how did things progress?
>> 我很快就爱上了她。进展得很快。
Original English >> I fell in love with her very quickly. It progressed fast.
>> 是的。我不知道。节奏很快。在我看来，在最初的6个月里，是的，我就是深深地爱上了她。我真的很喜欢她创作的艺术。我喜欢她整个人的能量和气质，你知道，
Original English >> Yeah. I don't know. It moved fast. It felt to me that it um over the course of the first 6 months, yeah, I just really fell in love with her. I really liked the art that she made. I loved her whole energy and vibe and you know,
>> 但是，嗯，我就是一直在不断发出所有这些警告。而且我还对她说，
Original English >> but um I just was yeah sending all these cautions the whole time. And I also was saying to her,
>> 我知道你说你不想生孩子，但你可能会改变主意的。比如——
Original English >> I know you say you don't want to have kids, but you might change your mind. Like
>> 我认识很多女性到了三十四五岁，想法彻底改变了。
Original English >> I've known a lot of women who reached their mid30s and hardcore changed their minds.
>> 其中有些人在结婚时已经约定好不要孩子。
Original English >> Some of them already in marriages where they had agreed they weren't going to have kids.
>> 她们依然改变了主意。你知道，我基本上就是在说，给你自己留点余地，不要把话说得那么绝对，因为你不知道。你才28岁。比如——
Original English >> They still changed their mind. You know, I just was basically saying, give yourself some grace to not make a declarative statement about it because you don't know. You're only 28 years old. Like,
>> 但话又说回来，居高临下。我是说，有点傲慢，有点像“哦，好吧，我对你自己的人生比你还要清楚”。所以，
Original English >> but again, patronizing. I mean, a little condescending and a little bit like, oh, well, I know better about your own life than you do. So,
>> 是的。好吧，确实是有点居高临下。我——再次强调，我对你说这些是带着同情心的[笑声]。这就是居高临下，就是这样。你知道，我就是想说，但有意思的是，你在描述、在表达的就像是你在走的这种非常奇妙的钢丝，对吧？你很快爱上了她，但与此同时，你又有点把她推开。你就像在说：“但是别靠得太近，因为，你知道，我给不了你这些东西，而你可能会想要这些。”我很好奇她对你处理事情的方式是什么反应。
Original English >> yeah. Well, it is a little patronizing. I'm like, again, I say this with, you know, compassion [laughter] towards you. It's patronizing just period. You know, I'm just going to say that like, but the thing that's interesting is you're describing, you're articulating this like really interesting tight rope that you're on, right? You're falling in love with her very fast, but at the same time, you're kind of pushing her away. You're like, "But don't get too close because, you know, I can't give these things to you and you might want them." I'm curious her response to the way you were handling things.
>> 嗯，沮丧。
Original English >> Um, frustrated.
>> 是的。好吧。[笑声]
Original English >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter]
>> 对我做的任何事来说，这都是一种正常、健康的反应。
Original English >> A normal, healthy response to whatever I was up to.
>> 嗯，是的，对某个人说“我爱你。我喜欢这段关系”，然后又说“但这绝对是要结束的”，这种氛围和感觉并不好。而且你知道，
Original English >> Um, yeah, it was not it's not a great vibe and energy to say to somebody, "I love you. I love this relationship." And yet it's definitely going to end. And you know,
>> 我不知道。是的，我就是那样。但同时，我必须说这并不是——我当时不是在扮演某种人设。我的意思是，我确实认为我需要建立防御机制，但另一种老生常谈是，在情感上疏离关闭的男人自有他们独特的气场和氛围。而我认为她卡在了既感到沮丧又被吸引并沉迷其中的状态之间——
Original English >> I don't know. Yeah, I just was not. But also, I have to say this was not um I wasn't playing a character. I mean, I really do think I needed to build defense mechanisms, but the other cliche is emotionally unavailable guys are have their own energy and their own vibe. And I think she was stuck between being frustrated and then compelled and into
>> 完全是这样
Original English >> totally
>> 其中。你知道，我们当时在跳着那种小小的舞蹈……而我确实非常爱她。你能感觉得到。我是说，我对她的爱不是假的。我是真心爱她的。
Original English >> it. And you know, we were doing that little dance of And I did love her so much. You could feel it. I mean, I was not fake in love with her. I was real in love with her.
### 四年的拉扯与危机 >> 我不怀疑这一点。我毫不怀疑。我现在也在想。我想的是：“好的，我知道你说了你惹的麻烦少，但这我觉得越来越可能变得有点混乱了。”我是说，我——
Original English >> I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that. I am thinking too now. I'm like, "Okay, I know you said you're low mess, but this becomes, I think, increasingly potentially a little messy." I mean, I'm
>> 我没说我是个完全不惹麻烦的人。你知道，
Original English >> I didn't say I was no mess. You know,
>> 你说的是惹麻烦少，而我想说的是我们现在正在进入中度混乱。[笑声] 我是说，我只是觉得，而且戏剧性依然很强，但我很好奇，比如你和这个人之间仍然是非一夫一妻制的。所以表面上你们俩都在和其他人约会，你们两个人都是吗？
Original English >> you said low mess and I'm saying we're now getting into moderate mess. [laughter] I mean, I just I think and and the drama, you know, remains high, but I am curious like it's non- monogamous still between you and this person. So, you're both ostensibly are you seeing other people, both of you?
>> 是的。是的。是的。好的。是的。
Original English >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes.
>> 我是说，这种情况持续了多久？我想，因为这确实感觉就像你刚才说的走钢丝。是的。这持续了多久？这段关系最终维持了四年。
Original English >> I mean, how long did this go on for? I guess because it does feel like you again said tight rope. Yeah. How long did this go on? This relationship ended up lasting four years.
>> 四年
Original English >> Four years
>> 才真正分手。
Original English >> before we broke up for real.
>> 好的。[叹气并倒抽一口气] 有没有——好吧，我们来谈谈所谓的临界点吧，尽管它不是立刻发生的。我知道。发生了什么？发生了一些极度的混乱，这在电影中也有所体现。
Original English >> Okay. [sighs and gasps] Was there Well, let's talk about the sort of breaking point as it were, even even though it wasn't immediate. I know. What What happened? There was some extreme kind of messiness that is echoed in the film.
>> 嗯，告诉我发生了什么事。
Original English >> Um, tell me what went down.
>> 有另一个她喜欢的男人，我觉得那个人非常有威胁。
Original English >> There was another guy that she was into that I found to be very threatening.
>> 呵。
Original English >> Huh.
>> 某种程度上
Original English >> In a way that
>> 威胁到你们之间的连接。
Original English >> to your connection.
>> 是的。而且对我个人而言也是，这里面的某些东西几乎让我觉得宇宙中有一种力量把他们连接在了一起，而她和我之间却没有。
Original English >> Yes. And to me personally, something about it made me feel almost like there was a force in the universe that was connecting them that she and I didn't have.
>> 呵。就像我和他们俩待在一起时，那种氛围是如此明显而真切
Original English >> Huh. Like the energy when I was around the two of them was so palpable and obvious
当时我觉得，自己好像成了大自然规律之类的绊脚石。这两个人本就该在一起。
Original English that I was like I think I'm actually like standing in the way of mother nature or something like that. These two people like need to be together
>> 你们三个人还会一起出去聚聚？
Original English >> and you would chill all three of you.
>> 是的，我们都是在芝加哥电影制作和艺术圈子里认识的。而且我认识他其实很久了，比认识她要久得多。哇，但那种感觉真的很强烈，因为你爱着这个人，而亲眼看到你爱的人和另一个男人之间有着那种本能的紧密联结，心里肯定很不是滋味。
Original English >> Yeah, we knew each other from the Chicago film making and artistic community. And I had actually known him for a long time. A lot longer than I knew her. Whoa, that's really intense though because you love this person and that is not a great feeling to see a visceral connection between the person you love and another guy.
>> 嗯。但与此同时，我又觉得，我得身体力行自己宣扬的那套东西。我的意思差不多就是，如果他们俩之间的关系能够通往某种完全真实、巨大的东西，而没有那些条条框框与障碍，我就不能去阻碍它。我必须得真诚，你知道吗？我得去践行自己在那些初次约会上所倡导的准则。
Original English >> Mhm. But at the same time, I was like, this is I got to practice what I'm preaching. This is kind of what I'm saying is if if if that relationship between the two of them could present a pathway to, you know, a whole big real thing without all the red tape and barriers, I can't get in the way of it. I I I've got to be real, you know? I got to um live the kota that I'm sort of espousing on these first dates.
>> 是啊。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 我不能说什么“咱们搞非一夫一妻制吧，除了他以外”，
Original English >> I can't be like, "Let's be non-monogous, except him,
>> “不能是他”。
Original English >> not him."
>> 那么，你看到他们之间发展出这种联结。作为反应，你和这个女人的联结、你们的关系发生了什么变化？
Original English >> So, you [clears throat] see them developing this connection. What's happening to your connection in response your relationship with this woman?
>> 噢，这个嘛，嫉妒和紧张感是巨大的性驱动力和激发能量。所以它引发了各种各样的事情。它让我们俩的心情忽上忽下。有时候会引发争吵，有时候又会带来极其火热的性爱。我是说，你知道，情况就是很复杂。非常、非常复杂。
Original English >> Oh, well, you know, jealousy and tension are big sexual drivers and motivating energy. So it was doing all kinds of things. It was pingponging us all over the place. Sometimes it would lead to fights, other times super hot sex. I mean, you know, it just was complicated. Very, very complicated.
>> 哇。所以这就像是一种拉锯的状态，你们在一起相处，然后她又和他在一起相处，可能嫉妒会突然爆发，但随后又……我是说，对于这种情况，你们之间难道没有一个临界点吗？
Original English >> Wo. So it's like this attenuated thing where she is you're spending time together and then she's spending time with him and maybe the jealousy will flare but then it'll I mean was there like a breaking point for you too with with this situation?
>> 嗯，他当时是有女朋友的。
Original English >> Well, he had a girlfriend.
>> 我的天啊。那个男人有女朋友。
Original English >> Oh my god. The other guy had a girlfriend.
>> 是的。所以他们并没有——
Original English >> Yeah. So they weren't
>> 在芝加哥真是够丰富的——
Original English >> in Chicago are really having lots of
>> 不，[笑声] 所以他们并没有，当时存在一道障碍。他们之间的联结是真实的，但他们无法去探索那种联结。他有女朋友，而且他们是一夫一妻制。
Original English >> No, [laughter] so so they weren't there was a block their their connection was real but they couldn't explore that connection. He had a girlfriend and they were monogamous.
>> 哎呀，真是的。
Original English >> Oh brother.
所以临界点到来了，真正的第一个
Original English So the break the breaking point came the real first
>> 棘手的事情发生在他们确实上床了的时候，而且她把这件事告诉了我，因为我和她处于开放式关系中。
Original English >> tough thing came when they did hook up and she told me about it because she and I are in an open relationship
>> 但他是出轨，然后我就不得不成了他们秘密的守护者。于是我基本上就变得像个小孩子一样耍性子，感到感情全受到了伤害，而且我想出成千上万个借口，就是不肯直接承认自己嫉妒得发狂。所以我就会说些诸如“你知道，这让我处在一个非常尴尬的境地，因为我得替你们守秘密”等等之类的废话。但实际上，我只是在回避去承认：“呃，你真的把我彻底击垮了。”就像，这真的很伤人。这一次太伤人了。但同时，她并没有做错任何事。我的意思是，你知道，我只是需要不断地克制自己、反省自己，心想：
Original English >> but he was cheating and then I had to become the keeper of their secret. So then I basically like become a baby about it and my feelings are all hurt and I'm coming up with a million reasons not to just say like I'm extremely jealous. So I'm saying things like, you know, this puts me in a really uncomfortable place because I have to protect your secret and blah blah blah. But really, I'm just avoiding saying like, uh, you really bodys slammed me. Like this this hurts. This one hurts. But also, she didn't do anything wrong. I mean, you know, I just needed to check myself and catch myself constantly and go like,
>> “这个人，第一，立刻就告诉了你这件事。”
Original English >> "This is a someone who a told you about it immediately."
>> 第二，在我们这种开放式关系中，她是允许去探索这些的。我也确实是这样做的，
Original English >> B is allowed to explore this in our open relationship. I certainly was,
>> 你知道，即便那让她感到嫉妒或其他什么的。所以，
Original English >> you know, even when it made her jealous or whatever else. So,
>> 事情就是很复杂，因为我对此感到厌恶，但我又没有理由去厌恶。在这整个过程中，我只是又回到了你当初明确设定的那些界限，对吧——不结婚、不要孩子——
Original English >> it was just complicated cuz I hated it and I also wasn't allowed to hate it. in this whole I'm just returning to the the boundaries you'd so clearly set right the no marriage the no kids
>> 在这个时候。
Original English >> at this point
对，你对那些界限现在是怎么想的？因为现在一切似乎都在变动之中，因为你感觉非常难受，
Original English yeah how are you feeling on those boundaries cuz everything's sort of in flux right now cuz you're feeling really bad
>> 那些界限到底怎么样了？
Original English >> what's up with those boundaries
>> 情况是这样的：诡异的是，我们当时——她没有采取避孕措施，
Original English >> here's what's up weirdly we are having she's not on birth control
>> 好。
Original English >> okay
>> 我们发生关系时没有做保护措施，所以在整个这段时期里，
Original English >> we are having unprotected sex so all through this period there
她非常有可能怀孕。我们并没有——
Original English There is the very real possibility that she gets pregnant. We're not
>> 天哪，乔，你在干什么啊？[笑声]
Original English >> Oh my god, Joe, what are you doing? [laughter]
>> 我就是活在自己的虚伪以及各种状态之中。但问题是，我们谁也没打算要怀上。我们并没有，我想我们并不是在期待发生什么意外。我们真的没有在试图怀孕。
Original English >> I'm um existing in my hypocrisy and whatever. But the thing is, neither of us wanted to get We were not I don't think we were like hoping something happened. We really were not trying to get pregnant.
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> 接着，我的前妻和她的现任丈夫也生了一个孩子。
Original English >> And then also my ex-wife has a kid with her new husband.
>> 呵。
Original English >> Huh.
大概是在2022年左右，当时我还处于和女朋友的这段关系中。我的内心很矛盾，一方面看着他们又有了个小婴儿，我庆幸自己不用再带孩子，
Original English in 2022 or something while I'm in this relationship with my girlfriend and my feeling is split between I'm so glad I don't have a baby watching them have a baby again
>> 但另一方面又有些嫉妒，因为那是世界上最美妙的事情。所以，我去他们家接我的孩子们，或者大家有时会一起过节之类的，我亲眼看到那个新出生的小生命，心里就忍不住想：该死，伙计。也许我确实想再来一次。我不知道。这种感觉太棒了。但随后我又会想：老兄，我终于……你知道，我的孩子们慢慢长大了，变得越来越独立了。我找回了大量属于自己的时间。我也开始重新投入工作了。你知道，就是这种状态，所以我同时处于这两种极端的想法之间：既想再经历一次，又觉得我绝不想再来一遍，你知道吧。
Original English >> and then also jealousy because it's the most incredible thing in the world. So, I'm going over to their house to pick up my kids or, you know, we do holidays together sometimes and stuff and I'm just seeing this new little human and I'm just like, [ __ ] man. Maybe I do want to do that again. Like, I don't know. It's the best. And then I'm also like, dude, I'm finally, you know, my kids are getting older, becoming more autonomous. I'm getting a lot of my time back. I'm starting to work again. You know, it's like so I'm on both of these sides of like I would would do it again and also I never you know
>> 你的界限正在变得越来越灵活、越来越有渗透性。
Original English >> your boundaries are becoming more flexible, more porous
>> 百分之百是这样，而且令人困惑，自己也很混乱。
Original English >> 100% and and confusing and confused.
### 转折点 >> 那么时间跳到2024年，2024年下半年。
Original English >> So jump to 2024, late 2024.
>> 好的。
Original English >> Sure.
>> 我当时正在参与一部电影的制作，我给她打了电话，
Original English >> I'm in production on a movie and I call her
>> 我说：“嘿，最近怎么样？我能去你家吗？电影刚杀青。”她却说：“我有些事必须跟你谈谈。”然后她告诉——告诉我：
Original English >> and I'm like, "Hey, what's up? could I come over to your house? We've just wrapped the movie. And she's like, I need to talk to you about something. And she tells she tells me,
“我和他在一家酒吧碰头了。我得知他和女朋友分手了，然后我们发生了关系。”
Original English I met up with him at a bar. I discovered he and his girlfriend are broken up and we had sex.
我当时心里就一句：“妈的。”[叹气] 我整个人彻底崩溃抓狂了。我说：“好吧，看来我们之间玩完了。我不想要这样了。”就好像我就是——
Original English And I'm like, [ __ ] [sighs] And I just totally freak out. And I'm like, okay, well, that's the end of us. Like, I don't want to do this. It's like I just
>> 我……我真的忍受不了这个。要是情况变成这样，那祝你一切顺利吧。反正我基本上是退出了。
Original English >> I I I can't I can't hang with this. If that's what's up, then go with God. Like I'm out basically.
是的。我整个人彻底崩溃了。接下来的两周时间里，我就是整天瘫倒在床上。就像是——
Original English Yeah. And I just was decimated. I just spent the next two weeks flat on my back. Like just
>> 不吃不喝，也不……
Original English >> not eating, not
>> 是的。整个人彻底泄了气、丧失了斗志。就像是，该死。而且我还觉得这全是我自作自受。
Original English >> Yeah. Just totally wind knocked out of my sails. Like damn. And I also felt like I brought this all on myself.
>> “我真是个蠢货。到底为什么要这么搞？到底为什么？”
Original English >> I'm such a [ __ ] idiot. Like why you [ __ ] Like why?
>> 于是有那么一段时间，我没有和她说话，我整个人就像是彻底垮掉了。
Original English >> And so for a period of time I wasn't talking to her and I was just like full on busted.
>> 然后我们又开始交谈了，我们一起去散步，她说：“我爱你。我爱上了你，但同时我们处于开放式关系中。
Original English >> And then we started talking again and we went on a walk and she was like, "I love you. I'm in love with you, but also we're in an open relationship.
就像，
Original English Like,
>> 你知道，我是喜欢他的。
Original English >> you know, I like him.
>> 我喜欢他好几年了。”我回答说：“我知道，我知道，我知道，我知道。”[抽鼻涕声]
Original English >> I have for years. And I'm like, I know, I know, I know, I know. [snorts]
>> 正是在这场对话中，我心里想，我不想失去她。我不想失去这段关系。我们在这段感情里已经投入了4年时间。准确地说在那个时间点是3年半。就像是，我不想再去换个人从头开始了。我不想，我……然后就在那时我说：
Original English >> And it was just during this conversation that I was like, I don't want to lose her. I don't want to lose this relationship. 4 years we've put into this thing. Like 3 and 1/2 years at that point. Like, I don't want to start over again with somebody else. I don't I And that is when I was like,
“我们结婚吧，我们干脆生个孩子吧。我改变主意了。是我改变了主意。我一直在说你会改变主意，但我想要你。我想留在这种关系里。”你在公园散步时说了这些？
Original English let's get married and let's just have a kid. Like I I changed my mind. Like I I'm the one who changed my mind. I spent this whole time saying you would change your mind and I I want you. I want to be in this relationship. You said that on this walk in the park,
>> 就在接下来的那一周左右时间里，我和她打了很长时间的电话，进行了长时间的交谈，
Original English >> just over the next like um uh week of long phone calls with her and long conversations,
我彻底把局面搅浑了，自己完全成了一个彻头彻尾的双标伪君子。来了一个180度的大转弯。突然间我说：“搬过来，搬过来跟我一起住吧。等你租约到期后，就直接搬过来和我还有孩子们一起住。我们直接……对不起。我想和你在一起。我到底想不想维系这段关系？我们行动吧。”
Original English I just completely muddied the waters and just became a total hypocrite to myself. 180 full on swing. And suddenly I was like, "Move, move in with me. Like when your lease expires, just move in with me and the kids. We'll just I'm sorry. Like I want to be with you. Do I want to be in this relationship? Like, let's do it,
>> 乔。哇。我是说，这真是个彻底的反转——
Original English >> Joe. Wow. I mean, that is a complete reversal of
>> 百分之百是。太让人困惑了。
Original English >> 100%. It was so confusing.
>> 那你——你在当时觉得这讲得通吗？我——
Original English >> And did you did it make sense to you at the time? I
>> 我只是觉得，我似乎需要被猛烈地震荡一下，好脱离我之前给自己的生活设定的那种停滞等待的状态，无论我离婚后在自己周围设立了怎样的界限，
Original English >> I just think that I like needed to be shocked out of whatever holding pattern I had placed my life in, whatever boundaries I had set around myself post divorce,
突然间，它们全部都被打破摧毁了。我审视着自己的未来，心想：我这是在干什么？如果我进入一段段恋爱关系时，满脑子都是那些针对我不想要的东西设立的界限与屏障，而且只有当那些女人完全接受我不想要的一切时，关系才能继续向前推进，但甚至我自己都不知道自己想要什么，那我未来的感情生活会变成什么样？是的，我的生活像是突然被电击了一下，我突然之间变得清醒了，
Original English suddenly they just all got obliterated. And I looked at my future and went, what am I doing? Like, what is what is my love life going to look like if all I'm doing is getting into relationships where I just have all these boundaries and barriers around what I don't want and the only relationships that are moving forward are the ones where the women are okay with all the things I don't want, you know, but I don't know what I want. And it yeah, my life just got zapped and I suddenly was like I had clarity,
你知道，我感觉自己完全是因为自身的心结，或者说我自己那些奇奇怪怪的障碍，正在把一段真正美好、非常难得的感情给抛弃掉。
Original English you know, and a feeling that I was throwing away a really beautiful good relationship because of my own issues or you know my own weird um hurdles.
而她听到这些的时候，心里还记着你们关系从一开始就立下的基本规则是不要婚姻、不要孩子。而现在你却说：搬来跟我一起住吧，我们结婚吧，
Original English and she's hearing this having the ground rules of your relationship from the start, you know, being no marriage, no kids. And now you're saying move in with me, let's get married,
你知道，要不我们生个孩子吧。我的意思是，真的。
Original English you know, let's have a kid. I mean, yeah.
>> 她对此有什么反应？
Original English >> How is she receiving this?
>> 她说：“我才不信你。你疯了吧。你这么说只是因为嫉妒。你这么说只是想掌控局面。”
Original English >> She's saying I don't believe you. You're out of your mind. You're just saying this because you're jealous. You're just saying this because you want control over the situation.
>> 那你相信自己说的话吗？你自己相信吗？比如，她虽然不信你，但你自己是当真的。你当时觉得……
Original English >> Did you believe you? Did you believe you? Like, she doesn't believe you, but you did. You were like,
>> 我现在依然相信那是真的。是的。
Original English >> I still believe it now. Yes.
>> 哼。
Original English >> Huh.
>> 那段关系的巨大力量，在突然体会到即将失去它的那一刻……
Original English >> The the power of the relationship in the sudden moment of feeling its loss.
>> 嗯。[清嗓子]
Original English >> Yeah. [clears throat]
>> ……对我来说变得无比清晰。我不仅对自己说的话深信不疑，我是真的渴望那样。我的意思是，在经历了三年半一只脚留在门内、一只脚悬在门外之后，我终于……
Original English >> Became crystal clear to me. And I not only believed what I was saying, I I wanted it. I mean, I I finally >> after 3 and 1/2 years of having one foot in and one foot out,
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> ……突然间就像是：我准备好完全投入进去了。
Original English >> suddenly was like, I'm ready to step full on into this thing.
[音乐] 我们马上回来。 [音乐] [音乐] 好吧。现在这事情就很有意思了，因为她当时是说：“我不相信你。你这就是嫉妒。”而你则是：“但我自己相信。我们做吧。”嗯。
Original English [music] We'll be right back. [music] [music] Okay. And now this is interesting because she's like, "I don't believe you. This is jealousy." You're like, "Well, I believe me. Like, let's do this." Mhm.
>> 正是在[笑声]正是在这个时候，你决定要拍一部关于这一切的电影。[笑声]
Original English >> And it is [laughter] at it is at this point that you decide to make a movie about all of this. [laughter]
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yes.
>> 差不多两个月后，我就已经投入到一部关于这一切的电影的前期制作中了。[笑声]
Original English >> Like 2 months later, I'm in pre-production on a movie about all of this. [laughter]
>> 行，不过还是让我先搞清楚。[笑声]到底是怎么回事？在你拍这部电影期间，你和那个女人之间到底是什么状况？她是离开了？你们还在一起吗？是她正和那个男人探索关系而你备受打击吗？到底是什么局面？
Original English >> Okay. Let me just be really clear though. [laughter] What What was What was happening? What was the deal between you and this woman at the time that you were making this movie? Was she off? Were you together? Was she exploring with this guy and you were broken? Like, what was the situation?
>> 说出来你都绝对不会相信。
Original English >> You're not even gonna believe it.
>> 哎呀，不会吧。到底怎么了？
Original English >> Oh, no. What?
### 电影与未定之局 >> 我不知道。我动身去了阿拉斯加，而我完全不知道我们到底算什么状况。我根本不知道拍完电影回芝加哥之后，我和她究竟是会复合，还是我从此再也见不到她了。我一无所知。
Original English >> I didn't know. I left for Alaska and I did not know what our situation was. I did not know when I came back to Chicago after wrapping the film whether she and I would get back together or whether I would never see her again. I had no idea.
>> 哇。而且这绝不单单是为了艺术上的渲染。这真的是事实，因为这就是整件事有意思的地方。很明显，你拍的这部电影与你的个人经历贴合得非常紧密，对吧？灵感完全来自于你刚才描述的这一团乱麻……
Original English >> Wow. And that's not just for artistic flourishers. This is like actually the truth of because this is why it's interesting. Obviously, you're making this movie that cues quite closely to your personal experience, right? Inspired by just everything you've articulated this sort of messy
>> 这一整堆乱摊子。
Original English >> all of this mess.
>> 电影总有结局，对吧？而且你的电影大家都知道，出了名地不会有那种干净利落、整整齐齐的结局，但它们终究会有个结局，片尾字幕终究会滚动的，对吧？所以，你在为一个处于进行时、完全未定的现实状况写结局。那么你写下的结局，是那种……
Original English >> And movies have an end, right? Like and and your movies kind of, you know, famously notoriously they're not neat, tidy endings, but they do end like credits do roll, right? So, you're writing the ending
>> 为一个局面……
Original English >> to a situation
>> 一个当下正在发生、充满变数的局面。那么你是在写一个你渴望的结局、一个你害怕的结局，还是一个你认为现实的结局？你是怎么处理的？
Original English >> that is live and wide open. And so are you writing the ending that you >> that's aspirational that you're scared of that you think uh is realistic like how do you
>> 这些全都有。我当时真的觉得，我是不是在瞎搞什么东西，让这种愿望的满足……
Original English >> all all of those I literally felt like am I [ __ ] around with something here where the wish fulfillment
>> 会去影响现实，你知道……我们抛出了无数个结局方案，而那个问题始终盘旋在我脑海里：我究竟……该怎么收尾？我是该按照我希望生活发展的走向来给电影收尾？还是该以对电影本身最好的方式来给电影收尾？我是该基于现实生活来给电影收尾吗？到底该讲这个故事的哪个版本？它到底算自传性质的？还是应该与我的生活保持距离？最终，我们选择了一个对电影本身来说最好的结局，将它与现实生活分离开来。 对于这个决定我感到非常庆幸。我也觉得这注定会是一个正确的选择……
Original English >> is going to influence real you know I just we pitched a million endings and that question was always in my mind am I you know How? Should I end the film the way I want life to go? Should I end the film the way that's best for the movie? Should I end the film based on real life? Like, you know, which which version of this story am I telling? And is it autobiographical? Is it distanced from my life? And ultimately, we went with an ending that was the best ending for the movie, separated from real life. And I'm just very happy about that decision. And I feel that that was always going to be the right
>> ……选择，因为无论十年后、二十年后我的生活变成什么样，我都只想能够安安静静地看一部电影。
Original English >> move because no matter what's going on in my life 10 years from now, 20 years from now, I just want to be able to watch a movie.
### 重逢与觉察 >> 所以你把电影拍出来了，杀青了，然后回到了芝加哥。
Original English >> So you make the movie, you wrap the movie, and you come back to Chicago.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 期间你们一直没联系过。你们一直没联系。 我们完全没有过联系。我动身去阿拉斯加后，两人之间就零沟通了。
Original English >> And you hadn't been talking. You hadn't been talking. We had not been talking. I left for Alaska and there was zero communication.
>> 哇。整整……
Original English >> Wow. It was full
>> 整整六周。是的。后来我在公园里碰到了一个正在遛狗的共同朋友，他打招呼说：“嘿，阿拉斯加之行怎么样？”我跟他聊着近况，他接着问：“你跟她怎么样了？”我说：“我不知道。我一直没跟她联系过。”他就说：“呃，我前几天在沙滩上碰见她了，她正跟那个男的在一起，在我看来他们俩就像一对情侣。”我当时就想：“好吧，看来我的答案有了。”确实，在我去阿拉斯加期间他们俩就在一起了，等我回到家的时候，他们已经在认认真真地谈恋爱了。
Original English >> for 6 weeks. Yes. And I run into a mutual friend in the park who's walking his dog and he's like, "Hey, how was Alaska?" And I'm catching him up and he's like, "What's up with you and her?" And I was like, "I don't know. I haven't talked to her." And he was like, "Well, I ran into her at the beach the other day and she was with him and they looked like a couple to me." And I was like, "Okay, well, there's my answer." And yeah, they had gotten together while I was in Alaska and were fully in a relationship by the time I got home.
>> 那真、那真的[笑声]太糟了。我的意思是，那真的很让人难受。而且你跟她谈过吗？我的意思是，这毕竟只是道听途说的。所以，你有找她谈过吗，还是……他们是排他的专一关系吗？这太打击人了。而且，正如我们之前说过的，这也正是你当初说过自己想要的，对吧？比如一个更年轻的人找到了属于自己的这种归宿。
Original English >> That that [laughter] sucks. I mean, that's and that sucks. Like, and did you talk I mean, of course, this was secondhand. So, did you talk to her or And were they monogamous? Like, it's so it's devastating. And then also, as we've said, this is again, this is sort of what you said you wanted, right? Like a younger person finding this.
>> 确实。在这件事上我可不是什么受害者。你知道，我整段时间一直觉得，现在也依然觉得……
Original English >> Exactly. I'm I'm no victim here. You know, I really felt and do feel this whole time like
>> 这都是我自找的。
Original English >> I did this to myself.
>> 那你后悔吗？了解了现在的这一切之后，你后悔当初设立那些界限吗？
Original English >> And do you regret it? Do you regret putting up those boundaries at the beginning knowing what you know now?
>> 后悔。我觉得我当时对待自己的方式，根本谈不上有多积极或健康……
Original English >> Yeah. I don't think that I was moving through life with a very um positive or healthy attitude towards myself
>> 或者说可能谈不上诚实。是的。
Original English >> or maybe honest. Yeah.
>> 那么现在怎么样了？我是说，现状如何？
Original English >> So, what's happening now? I mean, what's the situation?
>> 嗯，说来奇怪……
Original English >> Well, strangely,
>> 噢，别吓人。
Original English >> oh, no.
>> 电话响了。不不不不，是好事。是……
Original English >> The phone. No, no, no, no, no. It's it's good. It's
>> 好吧。是好事就行，那就好。
Original English >> okay. It's good. It's good. Okay.
>> 嗯，我当时在纽约放映我的一部电影，人正在酒店大堂里。我办完了退房，准备去赶飞机。我的手机响了，正是她打来的。她说：“嘿，我甚至都不知道自己为什么要给你打电话。”但是，“你知道，我最近常常想起你，也常常想起我们俩。”原来他们分手了。我之前完全不知情，根本没人告诉我。他们俩分手了。
Original English >> Um, I was in New York screening a film of mine and I was at the hotel lobby. I checked out of the hotel and I had a flight. My phone rang and it was her. She was like, "Hey, I don't even know why I'm calling you." But, you know, I've been thinking about you a lot and us a lot. And they had broken up. I did not know. No one told me. They had broken up.
>> 就是跟她在一起的那个男人……
Original English >> The guy that she
>> 是的。他们大概在六周前就已经分手了，但没任何人告诉我。我们有那么多共同好友，我觉得特别好笑的是，大家竟然都……
Original English >> Yeah. They had broken up like six weeks earlier and no one told. We have so many mutual friends and it's so funny to me that everybody was like
>> 竟然没人告诉你。不过这样可能更好。
Original English >> that no one told you. That's probably better.
>> 我懂。我觉得大家都在说“千万别告诉乔”这件事简直太搞笑了。[笑声]
Original English >> I know. I think it's hilarious that everybody's like, "Don't tell Joe." [laughter]
>> 我也这么觉得。
Original English >> I think so, too.
>> “别让乔知道他们分手了。”嗯，于是我们聊了两个小时。在整整一年毫无联系之后，这通电话就这么毫无征兆地来了。我说：“我现在在纽约，正准备去洛杉矶。你知道的，我一周后回芝加哥。你想不想碰个面聚聚？”她说：“好啊。”后来我们就去散了一次长长的步。我哭了。我的意思是，说真的，我现在聊起这事甚至都可能会掉眼泪。它彻底释放了那一年里积压的巨大紧绷感。所以那次交流非常健康、美好，对我来说真的很有治愈感，特别棒。我觉得我那天晚上睡的觉，比过去一年里的任何一晚都香，你懂吗？
Original English >> Don't let Joe know they broke up. Um, and so we talked for 2 hours. I mean, just out of nowhere after not talking for an entire year. And I was like, "I'm in New York. I'm on my way to LA. You know, I'll be home in a week. Do you want to like touch base?" and she said, "Yeah." And then we went on a long walk. I cried. I mean, it it it hon I I might cry now. I'm talking about it. It it relieved so much builtup tension from that year. And so, it was so health just healthy and nice, like really healing and great for me. Like, I just feel like I slept better that night than I had in a year, you know?
>> [倒吸一口凉气]
Original English >> [gasps]
>> 从那之后，我们的关系就开启了一种美好的新形态，我们现在完全可以只做朋友，关爱彼此。比如她最近正在芝加哥忙一个新项目，我一直在帮她处理那个项目中的一个环节。这种感觉真的很好，你知道吗？真的非常非常好。
Original English >> And then it just kind of began a nice new iteration of our relationship where we can just be friends now, love each other. Like she's doing a new project in Chicago right now. I've been helping her out with like one component of that project. Like it's so nice, you know? Really, really nice.
>> [叹气]
Original English >> [sighs]
>> 拍这部电影有没有帮你搞清楚关于你自己的某些事情，或者……
Original English >> Did making this movie help you figure something out about yourself or
>> 噢，当然有。
Original English >> Oh, yeah.
>> 有吗？
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 影响极大。
Original English >> Big time.
>> 快跟我说说。
Original English >> Tell me. Tell me.
>> 以下是我的几大核心感悟。我真切看清了自己的行为有多么具备操控性。它有多么不坦荡、不大度。我根本没有在顾及这些人。我是在保护我自己。我当时试图掌控局面。我试图留一只脚在门外以防万一，好让自己免受伤害，诸如此类的很多操控和控制行为。我倒也没有太苛责自己。我觉得这都是人性的常态。但我现在在做的一件事是，自18岁以来，我人生中终于第一次真正恢复了单身。而且我算是熬过了那段煎熬的淬炼期，我现在真的很享受这种状态。
Original English >> Here are my big takeaways. I got to see how manipulative my behavior was. How how it just it wasn't generous. I wasn't looking out for these people. I was protecting myself. I was trying to have control of the situation. I was trying to, you know, keep one foot out the door just in case to save myself from getting hurt, you know, just a lot of like manipulative, controlling kinds of things. I'm not beating myself up too bad. I think it's like normal human stuff. But the thing I'm doing now is I'm finally single for the first time in my life since I was 18 years old. And I'm like through the fire and I'm really liking it.
>> 我感觉自己终于到了这样一个阶段：会觉得“啊，这太棒了。能够重新以独立的姿态回到世界上……
Original English >> I'm like finally at the stage where I'm like, "Ah, this is so great. It's so nice to just
>> ……做自己的事情，感觉真好。”
Original English >> be autonomously back out in the world >> doing my thing."
>> 乔，你对自己的未来有什么期望？我的意思是，你现在很享受单身、独处的状态。
Original English >> Joe, what do you hope for your future? I mean, right now you're enjoying being single, being solo.
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> 往后你想要什么？你对此有过任何设想吗？
Original English >> What do you want moving forward? Have you forecasted that at all?
>> 是的，我只是觉得目前我能为自己和未来所做的最好的事，就是守护好当下的单身状态，然后再进入下一段感情。这就像是我需要先喜欢自己的单身生活、爱上自己的单身生活，然后再进入下一段关系，前提是我喜欢某个人喜欢到甘愿去为之妥协这种我很喜欢的单身状态。
Original English >> Yeah, I just have thought that the best thing that I could do for myself and my future is to um guard my singleness right now and then get into my next relationship. I It's like I need to like my singleness, love my singleness, and then I need to get into a next relationship when I like someone so much that I'm willing to compromise my singleness that I like.
>> 确实。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 只要是为了谈这段恋爱。所以我认为就我的未来而言，我现在心里的想法是，至少……
Original English >> In order to be in a relationship. And so I think for my future, the thing that I think right now is like at least
再保持六个月或一年的单身——
Original English six more months or a year of being single
>> 就像一个计划那样——
Original English >> as a project like
>> 然后——[笑声]
Original English >> and then [laughter]
>> 然后重新开始约会，重新对一段恋爱关系敞开心扉，不再像以前那样设下障碍或限制。只是实事求是地面对生活总会发生各种事情，而我无法去掌控它。
Original English >> and then to start to date again and be open to a relationship again without barriers or restrictions in the same way that I was doing them before. just being realistic that life is going to happen and I don't get to control it.
>> 但同时也明白——
Original English >> But also just to know that
>> 明白我的下一段恋爱关系，会是在我开始和一个我非常喜欢的人约会时到来，喜欢到我愿意妥协这种自主权——
Original English >> that I will be in my next relationship when I start to date somebody who I like so much that I'm willing to compromise the autonomy
>> 愿意去接纳、把某个人带进我的生活。
Original English >> and include and bring someone into my life.
>> 你知道，我们聊了这么多关于你以前初次约会的这套说辞：不结婚、不要孩子。当乔·斯万伯格重新回到约会市场，当你开始约会时，会有一套不同的初次约会说辞，[叹气] 还是说完全没有了？
Original English >> You know, we talked so much about this first date shiel that you had. No marriage, no kids. When you when Joe Swanberg's back out there and you're dating, will there be a different first date spiel [sighs] or none at all?
### 不设限的未来 >> 我想会是完全没有。我觉得我已经不再去预测未来了。我觉得我已经不再去设置——我现在知道是人为的——障碍或界限了，因为事实是，如果我爱上了某个人，我不知道，也许我会——
Original English >> I think there will be none at all. I think I'm done predicting the future. I think I'm done putting now I know artificial barriers or boundaries on because the truth is if I fall in love with somebody I don't know maybe I will
>> 想结婚，也许我会想结婚，你懂的。
Original English >> want to get married maybe I'll want to get married you know
>> 嗯。
Original English >> um
>> 孩子的问题很复杂。我想说现在我不想要更多孩子，但我也知道，说自己永远不会再要孩子是很愚蠢的。
Original English >> kids is complicated I would say right now I don't want more kids but I also now know that It's foolish to say I'll never do that again.
>> 是啊。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 因为我不知道。而且我很惊讶地发现自己当时愿意再次那样做——
Original English >> Because I don't know. And I was surprised to discover that I was willing to do that again
>> 甚至是很兴奋地愿意。哪怕，你知道，也许当时的情况是有些被迫的。但——
Original English >> excitedly. Not even, you know, maybe that situation was under duress. But
>> 当然。
Original English >> sure,
>> 我也是认真的。我，我，你知道，本来是会接受并且欣然迈进那一步的。
Original English >> I also meant it. I I you know would have and walked into that.
>> 所以我不知道那扇门是不是关上了。在我感觉看来它是关上了，但我不再像以前那样是个强硬派了。
Original English >> So I don't know if that door is closed. It feels to me that it's closed, but I'm I'm not a hardliner anymore the way that I used to be.
>> 我觉得这是我们结束谈话的一个绝佳落脚点，也就是这种“也许”和“我不知道”的心态。乔·斯万伯格，我非常享受这次对话。谢谢你今天与我畅谈。
Original English >> I think that is a perfect place to land us, which is this idea of maybe and I don't know. Joe Swanberg, I have so enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for talking to me today.
>> 别客气。我也很高兴和你交流。
Original English >> You bet. Nice to talk to you too.
### 制作人员名单 >> 《Modern Love》团队成员包括戴维斯·兰德（Davis Land）、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯（Alisa Gutierrez）、琳·利维（Lin Levy）、雷瓦·戈德堡（Reva Goldberg）和莎拉·柯蒂斯（Sarah Curtis）。本期节目由艾丽莎·古铁雷斯制作，由琳·利维剪辑。我们的混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯（Daniel Ramirez）。我们的节目由马蒂·马里埃洛（Mattie Mariello）、尼克·皮特曼（Nick Pitman）、凯尔·格兰迪洛（Kyle Grandillo）和萨曼莎·温特（Samantha Winter）录制。特别感谢布鲁克·门托斯（Brooke Mentors）。本期节目的原创音乐由艾丽西亚·比图普（Alicia Beetup）、玛丽安·洛萨诺（Marian Lozano）、罗文·尼莫（Rowan Nemo）、帕特·麦卡斯克（Pat McCusker）和丹·[音乐] 鲍威尔（Dan Powell）创作。丹还为我们谱写了主题曲。《Modern Love》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯（Daniel Jones）编辑，米娅·李（Mia Lee）是 [音乐] Modern Love Projects 的编辑。如果您想向《纽约时报》投稿随笔或微爱情故事，我们已将 [音乐] 投稿说明放在了节目简介中。我是安娜·马丁（Anna Martin）。感谢您的收听。
Original English >> The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Alisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lin Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. And our show is recorded by Mattie Mariello, Nick Pitman, Kyle Grandillo, and Samantha Winter. Special thanks to Brooke Mentors. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beetup, Marian Lozano, Rowan Nemo, Pat McCusker, and Dan [music] Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is [music] the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've [music] got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.