--- area: "work-career" category: ai-ml companies_orgs: - Anthropic - MIT date: '2025-12-16' draft: true guest: '' insight: '' layout: post.njk products_models: - Claude project: [] series: '' source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh98_aGhAuY speaker: Anthropic status: evergreen summary: Anthropic团队成员探讨了人工智能对教育的深远影响，包括其带来的巨大机遇和潜在风险。他们分享了个人对AI教育的看法，并介绍了Anthropic在开发AI素养课程、推出Claude“学习模式”以及与教育机构合作方面的实践。讨论强调了AI在个性化学习、评估创新和教师减负方面的潜力，同时也指出了数据隐私、机构适应性以及培养学生批判性思维以应对AI时代挑战的重要性。最终，团队展望了AI时代教育的未来，认为它将促使人类回归更本质的连接与提问能力。 tags: - critical-thinking - learning - psychology title: AI如何重塑教育：Anthropic团队的深度思考与实践 --- ### AI与教育：机遇与挑战并存 我个人非常不希望看到一个未来，教师将教育中那些真正有价值的部分——即与学生建立联系、深入了解他们并花时间陪伴他们的部分——外包给AI。AI可以通过多种方式让教师有更多时间投入到这类工作中。我很高兴能与各机构交流，探讨如何放大他们已有的知识。大家好，我们今天来讨论我最喜欢的话题：AI与教育。我是**Drew Bent**，负责**Anthropic**教育领域中有益部署的工作。我曾是一名高中数学老师，我的父母也是教育工作者。我曾在教育非营利组织工作，并认为自己是一个终身学习者。今天与我一同参与讨论的是我在公司教育团队的优秀同事们。**Zoe**，你愿意先开始吗？我很乐意。大家好，我是**Zoe**，我在**Anthropic**的教育团队工作，负责支持所有非技术受众，包括向教师和学生普及我们的产品和通用AI知识。大家好，我是**Maggie**，我创立并目前管理和支持这个教育团队，我们内部亲切地称之为“教育部”。大家好，我是**Ephraim**，我是一名产品工程经理，也参与了我们面向教育的一些产品开发。
Original English - I would hate to see a future where teachers outsource to AI the parts that I think really make good education, which is the connection pieces, when you really understand your students and can spend time with them, and AI can be used in so many ways that allow teachers to have more time to do that kind of work. And I'm excited for us to talk with institutions and discuss with them ways where we can amplify that knowledge they already have. - Hi everyone. We're here to talk about my favorite topic, which is AI and education. My name is Drew Bent. I lead our work here in education on beneficial deployments. Formerly was a high school math teacher. My parents are educators. I worked in education nonprofits and would definitely consider myself a lifelong learner. I'm joined here by my wonderful colleagues who work in education across the organization. Do you wanna start, Zoe? - Happy to. Yeah. Hi, I'm Zoe. I'm on our education team here at Anthropic and I support all of our non-technical audiences, including educating teachers and students about both our products and AI in general. - Hi, I'm Maggie and I founded and currently manage and support said education team, which we fondly internally call the Ministry of Education. - Hi, I'm Ephraim. I'm a product engineering manager and I've also helped build some of our products for facing education.
### Anthropic关注教育的深层原因 我认为从这里开始讨论很有帮助：我们为什么首先要讨论教育，或者说，我们这个通用AI实验室为什么首先要致力于教育领域？我们都知道，在**Anthropic**，我们非常关注我们正在开发的技术的潜力和风险。我认为教育是这方面的完美例证和体现，因为正如我们将在对话中谈到的，它当然带来了巨大的好处。但我们对AI在教育中的影响也有很多担忧。当我们思考其好处时，我们想到的是，我已经和你们多次讨论过AI如何能防止**教师倦怠**（Teacher Burnout: 教师因工作压力过大而产生的身心疲惫状态），如何能真正转变并**民主化**（Democratize: 使…大众化，普及化）高质量学习和辅导的获取，以及它如何能改变教师的教学方式和内容。但另一方面，我们也看到了所有的风险和担忧，例如教师们担心AI可能导致更多作弊行为，而且它确实正在导致更多作弊。此外，还有更具**存在主义**（Existential: 关乎存在意义的）的风险，即我们如何确保这些工具是增强和辅助人类思维，而不是取代它。因此，我希望这次对话能深入探讨所有这些细微之处，同时也能谈谈**Anthropic**为解决这些问题所做的实际工作。
Original English - So I think it's helpful to start here with why are we discussing education in the first place or why do we even work on education in the first place at this general purpose AI lab? You know, we all know of course that at Anthropic we care a lot about studying both the potential of the technology that we're building, but also the risks. I think education is the perfect example and sort of embodiment of that because of course there's massive benefits as we'll talk about in this conversation. But there's also a lot of concerns we have about the impacts of AI and education. And so when we think about the benefits, we think about, you know, I've had many conversations with you all about how AI can prevent teacher burnout, how it can transform and really democratize access to high quality learning and tutoring, how it can change, you know, how and what teachers teach. But then we also of course see the other side of it, which are all the risks and the concerns around, you know, that teachers have about how AI could lead to more cheating and is leading to more cheating of course, but also serve the more existential risks of how do we make sure that these tools are actually enhancing and augmenting human thought as opposed to replacing it. And so my hope for this conversation is that we can sort of dig into all of these nuances but also talk about the, the sort of practical type of work that we're doing at Anthropic to work towards these issues.
### 团队成员与教育的个人情结 那么，也许我们可以从这里开始，我很想听听，我知道你们所有人，我也认识你们一段时间了，但我并不一定了解你们每个人最初是如何对教育工作产生兴趣的故事。**Maggie**，我很想从你开始，是什么让你加入了这项工作？嗯，我对教育的兴趣是双重的。我认为从专业角度来看，教育和沟通一直是我在加入**Anthropic**之前所从事的每一份工作的一部分。我认为从个人角度来看，我生命中有两个可爱的孩子，我正像这个时代所有其他父母一样，努力思考我能做些什么来帮助他们在AI时代成长为善良、聪明、有思想、批判性参与的个体。一方面是更多的专业兴趣，我觉得我可以在这方面有所作为；另一方面则是作为年轻心灵的守护者，这对我来说是一个紧迫的个人担忧。**Ephraim**，你呢？嗯，我是在学术界开始我的职业生涯的。我学习了物理和数学，并以为我一生大部分时间都会从事研究，后来才转行到科技领域。我在**麻省理工学院**（MIT: Massachusetts Institute of Technology: 世界顶尖的理工类大学）时教过课，也曾是兼职教员，所以教育一直是我感兴趣的领域。谈到AI与教育，我有两个孩子正在上大学，所以我每天都在担心他们学什么、怎么学，毕业后会做什么。我也非常热衷于——我们稍后会讨论——机构如何在其教育中处理AI。所以这里有很多既是个人层面，也关乎社会未来的问题，即AI对教育意味着什么，我对此非常感兴趣。
Original English - So maybe to get started, I would love to hear, you know, I know all of you, I've known you for a while, but I don't necessarily know all of your stories on what got you interested working on education in the first place. So Maggie would love to start with you and what brought you into this work? - Well, my interest in education is twofold. I think professionally, education and communication has always been part of every job I've ever held up until Anthropic. And I think personally I, you know, have two lovely kids in my life and I am grappling with just as every other parent is in this era, what can I do to help them to being kind of intelligent, thoughtful, like thinkers and and critically engaged individuals as they grow up in the AI age. One is a lot more professional interest and where I feel like I can make a difference and a latter is like pressingly concerning to my immediate like core as someone who is a guardian to young minds. - How about you Ephraim? - Well, so I started my career in academia. I studied physics, maths, and I assumed I was going to be doing research for most of my life before switching to tech. And I, I've taught classes when I was at MIT, I've been in adjunct faculty, so education has been something I've always been interested in. When it comes to AI and education, I have two children who are in college, so I worry every day about what they're learning, how they're learning, what will they do once they graduate. I'm also very passionate about, actually we'll talk about later on, how do institutions deal with AI in, in their, in their education. So just a lot of stuff here that is both personal but also like looking forward to society. What is it, you know, what does AI mean to education that I'm really interested in.
### AI时代早期教育的重要性 我认为你和我都育有子女，这是最紧迫的担忧之一。是的，这让你现在感觉如此真实。对，对。我认为你的孩子正处于大学年龄，他们正在努力弄清楚自己的人生方向；而我的孩子还小，但我看到地平线上很快就会出现重要的决策点，你可以决定如何开始培养这种思维。我觉得如果不能及早抓住，这就是为什么我们关心所有不同年龄段的教育，否则情况可能会变得相当糟糕并累积起来。是的，我觉得这触及了我最初进入教育领域的原因，我有一个根深蒂固的信念，那就是教育是我们为社会带来改变所能做的最重要的事情之一。我认为大多数人都会同意这一点，当我从课堂转向科技领域时，是因为我希望为那些能够大规模实现这种改变的组织工作。我认为我们的教育系统有一些问题，如果我有一根魔杖，我会去解决它们，我希望AI能帮助加速其中一些积极的改变，但同时也要非常清楚地认识到，我们有很大的责任确保这种改变在今天以及未来十年都能顺利进行。我曾与一位教授交流，他曾说过一句很棒的话，他说学术界的所有问题作为一种制度已经存在了一段时间，只是AI是一个强制函数，迫使每个人现在就去处理它，而不是继续拖延，我想就是“踢皮球”吧？是的。是的。所以我很高兴我们能自己处理这个问题。
Original English - I mean I think like you and I both having children in our lives is like one of the most pressingly concerning things. Yeah. Where it makes it so real for you right now. Right, right. And I think that like your kids are college age and so they're trying to figure out what they're doing in their lives and then my kids are younger, but I see it on the horizon that very soon there's like strong decision points where you can decide how to start nurturing this kind of thinking. And I feel like if you don't catch it early, which is why we care about like education at all the different ages that it can kinda go pretty badly and compound. Right. - Yeah, I feel like that's hitting on a lot of like why I got into education in the first place, which is I have this very deep seated belief that education is one of the most important things we can do to make change in our society. I don't, I think most people can agree on that and when I, you know, pivoted from the classroom into tech, it was because I wanted to work for organizations that could do that change at scale. I think there's some things with our education system that I would fix if I had a magic wand and I, I am hoping that AI can help accelerate some of that change for the better, but also like very much recognizing that we have big responsibility to make sure that that change goes well today. And then, you know, 10 years into the future. - There was a great quote from a professor that I talked to at some point where they were saying that all the problems in academia have existed for a while as an institution. It's just that AI is the forcing function that makes everyone deal with it now instead of keep putting it down, I guess kicking the can down the road, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. So I'm excited for us to deal with that ourselves.
### AI在教育中的意外崛起与认知挑战 我现在才意识到我们这边有几位家长，这带来了很好的视角。是的，我想对我来说，我的父母也是教育工作者，所以我总是仰视他们，想做他们做过的事情。但我认为将这次对话建立在我们一直在做的一些研究基础上会很有帮助。去年年末，**Anthropic**的社会影响团队研究了用户使用**Claude**的各种方式，发现其中一些最主要的应用是在教育领域。我认为我们在所有聊天机器人中都或多或少看到了这一点，但这对我来说也是一个警钟，因为有趣的是，这些**大型语言模型**（LLM: Large Language Model: 基于海量文本训练的 AI 系统），正如我们所知，最初并非为教育而设计，更多是为了回答问题。它们是这样进行微调的，它们是为了这些生产力任务而存在的。然后，这变成了一种有趣的**涌现现象**（Emergent Phenomenon: 系统中各部分互动后产生的新特性），它们对教育非常有帮助，但也可能对人们的学习造成破坏。
Original English - I'm just realizing now we have the parents on this side, we bring a good set of perspectives here and yeah, I think on my end also my parents are, are educators and so it's always sort of looking up to them and wanting to do what they did. But I think it's helpful to also ground this conversation in some of the research that we've all been working on here. And so it was I think late last year that our Societal Impacts team at Anthropic had done research into all the ways that, you know, users are using Claude and found that some of the top uses were in education. I think we had seen this sort of in all chatbots to some extent, but I think it was also a wake up call for us because you know, what's interesting about it is that these LLMs, as we all know, were built not with education in mind very much on answering questions. They're fine tuned that way. They're meant for, you know, these productivity tasks, right? And then it's kind of this interesting emergent, you know, phenomenon that they're very helpful for education potentially sometimes destructive as well for people's learning.
### 学生使用AI的现状与布鲁姆分类法 所以我们开始深入挖掘。但我认为研究中突出的一点是，一个总是出现的统计数据是：**Claude**上**47%**的学生互动是非常直接的事务性互动，参与度很低。我想，当**Maggie**和我第一次看到这些数据时，这有点像一个警钟，因为我们都知道它有各种令人难以置信的方式可以作为**苏格拉底式导师**（Socratic Tutor: 引导学生通过提问和讨论发现知识的教学方法）使用，但后来发现，在某些情况下，人们只是用它来完成作业。作为一名教师，我常常思考我希望学生学习的不同**认知技能**（Cognitive Skills: 涉及思维、记忆、解决问题等心理过程的能力），在基础层面，可能包括记住事实和理解一些知识，但最终你希望他们达到**综合**（Synthesis: 将不同元素整合形成新整体的能力）和**创造**（Creation: 产生新想法或产品的能力）的水平，这当然就是我们所说的**布鲁姆分类法**（Bloom's Taxonomy: 认知学习目标分类法）。但我们在数据中看到的一个令人着迷的现象是，当我们开始研究**Claude**在这些对话中的互动时，我们发现**Claude**在这些认知任务上的表现非常出色，它在创造和分析等高级别任务上表现突出，而这正是作为教师你希望学生做到的。是的，我认为学生们正在以一种令我们教育工作者担忧的方式“颠覆”这种模式。我不知道这是否一定是坏事，我认为第一反应是这很糟糕。但我认为我希望我们和全世界思考的一部分是，是否存在一种新的分类法，其中AI是基线，然后你可以在此基础上构建出AI出现之前不可能实现的新事物。
Original English - And so we start to, you know, dig, dig deeper into that. But I think what stood out in the research is, one stat that's always comes up is 47% of the student interactions on Claude were very direct transactional types of interactions with little engagements. And I think, I know when Maggie and I were looking at data first is sort of sort of a wake up call because again we, we have all these incredible ways that you can use it as a Socratic tutor, but then to see that in some cases, you know, people are using it to just do their homework. And I know as a teacher, like for me, I sort of think about the different cognitive skills that I want, you know, my students to learn and you know, at the base level and maybe things like remembering a fact and understanding some knowledge, but then you wanna eventually get them to the level of synthesis and you know, creation of course, you know, we call this Blooms taxonomy, but what we saw in the data that I think was fascinating was we start to study Claude's interactions in these conversations and saw how well Claude is performing on these cognitive tasks and found that Claude was performing at the these top levels of creating and analyzing when, again, as a teacher that's what you want your students to do. - Yeah, I think the students are kind of flipping the script on this in a way that's concerning to us as educators. And I don't know if that's necessarily, I think the first blush reaction is that that's a bad thing. But I think part of what I want to challenge us to think about and and the world to think about is, is there like a novel taxonomy where that's the baseline and then you can build on top of that to something new that hasn't been possible before AI,
### AI对教学模式和学习内容的影响 我们也探讨了教育工作者如何使用AI，他们正在试验用它来创建教案、批改作业。我想是**东北大学**的一位教授告诉我们，他们再也不会布置传统论文了，因为有太多学生提交了AI完成的作业。他们是否使用了**Claude**，我们不得而知。但我认为这确实给我们带来了很多问题。我觉得你真的触及了我们与教育工作者经常讨论的两件事：AI既改变了学生学习的方式，也改变了他们需要学习的内容。例如，我不知道学生是否还需要像十年前那样拥有相同的记忆能力，因为他们现在可以随时使用AI工具，或者理论上他们应该可以随时使用AI工具。然后，当你进入更高层次的学术领域时，我们今天正在教授的一些技能在未来可能就不那么重要了。所以，这对于教师来说是一个巨大的挑战。
Original English - We've also explored how the, you know, educators are using it and they're experimenting with it for, you know, create lesson plans, grading. I think it was one Northeastern professor who told us that they're never going to assign a traditional essay again because they just had too many students submitting, you know, these AI assignments. Whether they use Claude or not, we don't know. But I think that's that sort of raises a lot of questions for us. - I feel like you really hit on two of the things that we talk about a lot with educators, which is like AI is both changing how students learn in, in like also what they need to learn, right? Like I don't actually know if it's important that students have the same memorization that they would've needed to have like 10 years ago because they have AI tools readily available or in theory they should have AI tools readily available. And then, you know, when you get into like higher levels of academia, there are potentially skills that we're teaching today that won't be as important in the future. And so it's, it's a ton for teachers to grapple with.
### AI赋能的互动式与个性化学习 我很想听听你们所有人，你们对AI如何改变教学和学习最兴奋的一点是什么？我认为最让我印象深刻的是**互动式学习体验**。我清楚地记得我在课堂上的时候，我的学生们玩了一个完全编程的病毒模拟游戏。他们扮演病毒，进入细胞并复制。那天我在课堂上看到的参与度是前所未有的。我认为大多数老师都见过类似的情况，但AI真的可以让你在任何科目上大规模地实现这一点，对吧？想象一下你正在与一位历史人物对话，老师们可以通过正确的工具设置很多**护栏**（Guardrails: 确保AI系统行为符合预期和安全标准的限制），但我非常期待看到这个领域随着时间的推移而发展。我认为互动性也让我非常感兴趣。你可以从AI那里获得如此多的帮助，而这些帮助在资源方面很难实现互动性，尤其是在资源匮乏的地区。在这些地区，许多学生无法获得像个人职业教练那样的资源，来指导他们如何在组织中正确面试。借助像**Claude**这样的AI的力量，你可以上传职位列表、简历等等，然后让**Claude**帮助你进行这些事情的**角色扮演**（Role Play: 模拟真实情境以练习技能）。我认为有很多非常引人入胜、有趣的角色扮演体验，无论是与已故的历史人物还是某种辅导情境，都能在很多方面帮助你，在这些情境中，外部视角会提供巨大的帮助。只是很难找到另一个人花时间坐下来与你交流，尤其是在资源匮乏的地区。
Original English - I would love to hear from all of you, what is one thing you're really excited about with how AI can transform teaching and learning? - I think one thing that really stands out to me is interactive learning experiences. I have this very vivid memory of when I was in the classroom my students did a virus simulator game that was fully programmed. They were the virus and they worked into the cell and they replicated. And the engagement that I saw from my classroom that day was unlike anything else. And I think most teachers have seen something like this, but AI really lets you do this at scale with any subject, right? Like imagine you're talking to a historical figure and, and teachers can put a lot of guardrails around this with the right tools, but I just am very excited to see that space developing over time. - I think the interactivity is also really interesting to me. There's so much assistance you can get from AI that is really hard resourcing wise to get the interactivity, especially in like low resource regions where you know, many students don't have access to like a personal career coach that can walk you through how to interview properly right at an organization and with the power of an AI like Claude, you can like upload like the job listing your resume and so on and just ask Claude to help you role play through these things. I think there's a lot of really engaging, interesting role play experiences whether or not with a dead historical figure or with some sort of like coaching situation that can really help you through a lot of experiences where an external perspective would be immense help. It's just really hard to get that other human being to find time to sit down with you, especially in regions with low resourcing.
### AI重塑评估与个性化学习路径 与此相关的是，我一直非常兴奋地看到教师们如何利用AI来改变他们的评估方式。几周前我与一位老师交谈，她曾在大流行期间通过**Zoom**花时间对所有学生进行口头面试，以更全面的方式评估他们。但这种方式显然无法很好地扩展，所以她停止了。但随着这些AI工具的出现，她现在能够使用相同的评分标准，并让所有学生定期与聊天机器人进行这种来回的评估，然后教授或老师能够根据这种与AI来回互动的过程来审查和评估他们。我认为评估是AI一个非常有趣的用途。我可以预见在未来，评估不再是某个特定时刻的事情，而是与AI进行持续互动，从而更深入地理解你是否真正理解了代数概念背后的原理。我真正兴奋的一点是AI可以提供**个性化学习**。有一项关于一对一辅导的研究发现，平均而言，接受一对一辅导的学生比没有接受一对一辅导或仅在课堂环境中学习的学生中**98%**的人表现更好。那是人类辅导。那是人类辅导，对吧？很难扩展。没错，很难扩展。假设每天有一小时的一对一辅导。有了AI，你就可以获得持续的一对一辅导，而且全世界的每个人都可以使用。所以我认为这有巨大的潜力来改变世界以及人们的学习方式。是的，我同意。当然，人们在研究中也发现了很多挑战，比如如何复制这种模式等等。但我认为这是一个非常有用的“北极星”，指明了如果能拥有非常个性化但又充满人情味的辅导体验，那将是怎样的可能。
Original English - Related to that I've, I've been very excited about how teachers are transforming their assessments with it. I was talking to a teacher a few weeks ago who at one point I think during the pandemic had taken time over, you know, Zoom to basically do oral interviews with all the students and really get to assess them on a more holistic way. But of course that didn't scale very well and so stopped doing it. But then with these AI tools coming out was able to now sort of use the same rubric and start to have, you know, all the students doing on a regular basis these sort of assessments back and forth with the chat bot and then the professor, the teacher is able to review them and assess them based on that process of going back and forth with an AI. - I think assessment is a very interesting use of AI. I could, you know, envision in in the future where it isn't a specific moment in time where you get assessed but there is a continuous interaction with AI developing a much deeper understanding of do you really understand the concept behind this algebra concept or not. One thing that I'm really excited about AI could provide this personalized learning. There is a research done on one-on-one tutoring and what they found is that on average the average student that had one-on-one tutoring is better than the 98th percentile of students that didn't have one-on-one tutoring or just a classroom set up. - And that was with human tutoring. - That's with humans, right? Hard to scale. Exactly hard to scale. Assume maybe like an hour of one-on-one tutoring a day. With AI you get continuous one-on-one tutoring and that is available to everybody, you know, around the world. So I think that is, has a great potential to transform the world and how people learn. Yeah, I agree. I think there's of course lots of challenges that as people have looked into the studies and how do you replicate this and all of it. But I think it's a very useful sort of north star of what could be possible if you can have a very personalized but also personal type of tutoring experience.
### 兴趣驱动与产品层面的缺失 当然。我认为今天我们可能根据学生水平将班级分开，或者如果你属于某个特定群体，你可以选择**AP课程**（Advanced Placement: 美国大学预修课程）。但有了AI，每个学生都可以有自己的学习旅程。那些能够快速进步的学生可以非常迅速地前进，而那些需要帮助的学生则可以获得个性化的帮助。这让我想起了一个非常有趣的用例，我曾与一位老师谈论过，你知道，你总是希望在学生最感兴趣的地方与他们相遇，对吧？这就像一种非常**蒙特梭利式**（Montessori: 一种以儿童为中心的教育方法）的方法，即“你最喜欢什么话题，然后我们将所有科目与此匹配”。这很难大规模实现，对吧？但我与一位老师交流过，她就是这样做的：她问学生们最喜欢什么，他们讲一个小故事，然后现在你收到的每一份讲义，即使是相同的数学概念，甚至相同的问题，但每一份讲义都是为每个学生量身定制的，完全符合他们的兴趣。它有一个吸引他们的故事，以及他们真正关心的问题。她确实注意到学生的参与度有所提高，因为突然间，这些学生在课堂上的每个科目都有了一条主线，以一种高度个性化的方式建立在他们的兴趣之上。如果每个教室都能做到这一点，想象一下学生们会投入多少精力，这太棒了。是的。那么，你如何看待在AI时代什么值得学习这个问题呢？
Original English - Absolutely. I think today we have classes maybe segregated by students that are in the top or you know, you take a like an AP class if you are, you know, in that certain group or not. But with AI every student could have their own journey. Those that are able to advance could advance very quickly and those that need help can get that personalized help. - You know, this reminds me of a really interesting use case that I talked to a teacher about where, you know, you kind of always wanna meet students where they're most interested, right? Like that's like a very Montessori type of approach where it's like what is your favorite topic and then we'll kind of match all the subjects to that. That's really hard to scale, right? But there's a teacher I talked to that's just like, I ask my students what their favorite things are, they tell me a little story and then now every single handout that you have, like the same math concepts, maybe even same problems, but it's like each handout is made for each student and it's like exactly according to their interests. It's got a story that's engaging to them, problems they actually care about. And like she's noticed an uptick in the engagement for sure because suddenly these students have a through line, through every subject in the classroom is building on itself in a way that's super personalized to their interests. Which like if that was in every classroom, imagine how much students would just lean into, it's amazing. Like exactly. - Yeah. So how are you thinking about that question of what's worth, you know, learning in, in the age of AI
### 缺乏专门产品与批判性思维的培养 作为一名产品开发人员，我看到的是一个产品层的缺失，这个产品层本可以帮助学生和教师非常有效地使用AI。例如，我女儿的班级正在学习**Python**，我的两个孩子都在学习计算机科学，所以这对他们编写**Python**的考试非常重要。他们希望学生在纸上写代码，因为他们担心作弊。现在之所以如此具有挑战性，是因为没有供学生学习的产品，也没有供教师布置和批改作业的产品。所有这些都是非常轻量级的工作，从我们作为产品提供方可以做的事情来看。但如果没有一个基于**大型语言模型**（LLM: Large Language Model: 基于海量文本文本训练的 AI 系统）构建的有意图的产品，就会暴露出我们正在构建的技术的许多不确定性、恐惧和滥用。所以，我想这就是我的看法：只要有一点产品思维的支持，很多这种不确定性以及作弊等问题就可以得到缓解。我面临的一个问题是，我们可以从工作如何变化来反推大学教育应该如何变化。但当我们思考像你孩子那个年龄段的孩子，也就是K-12教育，关于他们未来几年需要哪些**持久技能**（Durable Skills: 长期有价值且不易被自动化取代的技能），这是一个更难回答的问题。所以我没有答案，但我总是看着你，**Maggie**。
Original English - As somebody who's in product, in product development, what I see is this absence of product layer that would help both students and teachers use AI very effectively. For example, my daughter's class, she's taking Python, so both of my children are studying computer science, so very, very relevant for their exams for writing Python. They want them to write on a piece of paper because they're afraid about cheating. Well the reason it is so challenging now is there aren't products for the students could use to learn. There's also not products for the teachers to use to assign and grade homeworks, all of this are very light lifts, like from what we can do as a, as a product offering. But in the absence of an intentional product that is built on top of LLMs exposes a lot of uncertainty, fear, and abuse of the technology that we're building. So that's, I guess that's my take on this is that, you know, with a little bit of support in product thinking, so much of the, the sort of this uncertainty and and and maybe like cheating and so on could be mitigated. - And one of the things I struggle with is, you know, we can sort of backtrack from how jobs are changing and start to think about how university education should be changing. But then when we think about, you know, kids to the, the age of your kids, you know in K 12 it's an even harder question about what will be the skills, the durable skills that they need years from now. So I don't have the answer, but look, I always look, I look to you Maggie.
### AI时代下教育的根本性转变 哦，天哪，这确实是一个挑战。我认为与我交谈过的许多教师都非常认同的是，你教导年轻心灵如何批判性地思考周围世界和人类世界的许多技能，可以很好地应用于AI领域。尤其是在批判性思考所呈现事实的方面。有一个发展阶段，你从相信每个人说的每一件事，到开始思考你需要知道什么其他信息才能相信这是真的。对于我的孩子来说，这就像一个两部分的框架：第一部分是教育的重要性我认为比以往任何时候都更重要，如果你自己数学不好，或者你不知道正确答案是什么，你就无法判断AI是否数学不好，对吧？我们还没有达到AI像计算器一样总是可靠的阶段。所以，理解并强调学习、阅读、写作、科学、数学等等仍然非常重要。后一部分是培养他们成为批判性信息消费者，这不仅仅是关于“这是一个给我的事实”，而是“为什么会这样？我如何相信这是真的？我需要检查哪些方面才能确保我能证实我在这里学到的东西？”这种批判性思维能力可以从很小的时候就培养起来，无论信息是AI给你的还是另一个人给你的。我认为这种批判性思维是早期阶段最重要的能力之一，包括怀疑、好奇心和结合。是的，我想补充一点，因为我觉得我与许多老师和家长交谈时，他们都感到巨大的压力，认为自己必须有答案，必须知道教孩子什么，以及如何在课堂上进行教学。我认为孩子们比我们想象的要聪明得多。所以，无论是与你的学生还是你自己的孩子一起坐下来，和他们一起学习，向AI提问，然后一起评估结果，让孩子们反思并建立自己与AI互动框架，这都具有非常深刻的意义。我认为这真的非常强大。我们都听到，我们没有答案，因此没有人有答案。显然，我们正在努力找出答案。但我认为，仅仅鼓励在任何年龄段进行这种反思，只要是符合发展阶段的，就是人们现在能做的最好的事情之一。
Original English - Oh man, it's, it's a challenging one. I think that what resonates a lot with the teachers that I talk to is that a lot of the skills you teach young minds about how to critically think about the world around them in the world of humans can be quite applied to AI. Especially in the world of just critical thinking about the facts that you're presented with. There's a stage of development where you go from trusting every single thing everyone says to you to starting to think about well what are the other things that you need to know in order to believe that this is true with my kids? It's like a two part framework where part one is just the importance of education I think is more important than ever where you can't tell if an AI is bad at math, if you are bad at math or you don't actually know what the right answer is, right? And we're not the stage where AI is like always reliable like a calculator or something. And so just understanding that and emphasizing that learning, reading, writing, science, math and so on is still very important. And the latter part is developing them into like critical consumers of information where it's not just about this is what a fact that's given to me is, but like why is that the case? How do I trust that that's true? What are the areas I need to check in order to ensure that I can kind of corroborate what I'm learning here? And that kind of critical thinking skill you can develop from a pretty young age regardless of if it's an AI giving you the information or another human being giving you the information. That kind of critical thinking I think is one of the most important things to get at a, like an early age that skepticism, curiosity and combination. Right? - Yeah, I wanna add on to that 'cause I feel like a lot of the like teachers and parents that I talk to feel this like really intense pressure to have the answers and to know what to teach their kids and to know like how to conduct the lessons in their classroom. And I think like kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for. And so there's something really profound about just sitting with whether it's your students or your actual children and just like learning with them, asking AI something and then evaluating what comes out of that together and like having kids reflect and building their own frameworks for interacting with AI. That I think is really, really powerful. And we all hear, we don't have the answers, therefore no one does. Obviously we're working really hard to figure out what they are. But I think just encouraging that reflection at any age where wherever it's developmentally appropriate
### 培养质疑精神与学习过程的价值 对。是人们现在能做的最好的事情之一。你知道，我建议和你的孩子一起坐下来，一起探索AI，对吧？比如问一个问题，然后说：“嗯，这个答案说得非常自信，但这足够了吗？当有人自信地说某件事时，这足以让你相信吗？”希望答案是否定的，对吧？你还能检查什么？你还能去哪里寻找信息？你需要什么信息来思考这个问题？然后真正地内化它是否正确。我认为这个练习非常重要。我认为反面是展示不知道某事是什么感觉。我认为很多时候，表现出不确定性，并为你的孩子树立榜样，当你不懂某事时，你是如何找到答案的，对吧？你的学习过程是什么？我认为我想传达给我的孩子的是，找到答案只是你学习旅程的开始。我认为对于许多机构、学校等来说，现在我们真正测试的是找到答案。但如果我们将此作为某人旅程的开始，尤其是在与AI一起学习时，那么我认为这会打开一系列的大门。所以，是的，在家里，我努力展示我发现事物的过程，以及成年人并非总是有答案。孩子们非常聪明，他们能够以自己的方式找到答案，如果我们只是交谈并提出正确的问题，那么他们就能自己辨别什么是真的，什么不是，而不是仅仅相信表面价值。
Original English - Right, - Is like one of the best things people can be doing right now. - You know, I, I recommend sitting down with your kids and going through AI together, right? Like ask a question and then say, well this is was really confidently said, but is that enough When someone says something confidently, is that enough for you to believe that? And hopefully the answer is no. Right? What else can you check? Can you look somewhere else? What information do you need to think about this? And genuinely internalize if that's correct or not. That exercise is, I think super and I think of the, the converse side is to kind of demonstrate what it's like to not know something. I think that a lot of times like showing uncertainty and modeling for your kids when you don't know something, what is your own process of finding that out, right? What is your process for learning? I think that like what, what I wanna impart upon my kids is like finding the answer is just the start of your learning journey. And I think for many institutions, schools and so on, getting to the answer is really what we're testing right now. But if we get make that the beginning of someone's journey, especially learning with AI, then that I think opens up a whole series of doorways. And so yeah at home I, you know, try to show my process for discovering something and that adults don't always have the answers. Kids are super smart and they're able to find answers on their own in ways that if we just talk and ask the right questions, then they'll be able to discern for themselves what is true and what isn't and not just trust things at face value.
### 拥抱不确定性与AI时代的核心技能 是的，我喜欢你将此描述为“建模如何解决问题”。建模不确定性是如此重要的一件事。哦，是的。我们都充满不确定性，所以让我们利用这一点。而且我认为我们做得还远远不够。我们想要表现出这种自信，我认为有时这可能对孩子的发展有害，因为你只是告诉他们相信每个人说的一切，或者相信他们周围的成年人总是知道他们在说什么。因为我认为那给了他们一个**拐杖**（Crutch: 依赖物），让他们不必真正思考真相，不必为自己定义真相。我认为有一件事保持不变，那就是人类的学习方式，对吧？我们首先学习基本的东西。我们学习加法、减法，然后不断积累。所以，无论我们今天拥有AI、生成式AI还是下一代AI，这都将保持不变。所以，我认为我所看到的，我不知道什么是正确的学习领域，但无论如何，我们仍然必须经历这个学习过程。我认为现在最大的希望是，你实际上可以使用AI来促进你的学习，获得更深入的理解，甚至可能以两种不同的方式回答问题。从个人角度来说，我学习物理是因为我小时候非常好奇，所以如果你是一个好奇的人，想了解世界，天哪，现在是多么好的机会啊！因为AI可以教你任何你想知道的东西。是的。但如果你考虑职业，比如接下来会发生什么？你知道，我如何谋生？那么无论如何，我们都必须能够使用AI技术，让你加上AI成为一个更有能力的员工。
Original English - Yeah and I love the way you framed that of like modeling how to work through that problem. Modeling un uncertainty is just such an important thing. Oh yeah. That we're all uncertain so let's use that to our advantage. - And we don't do that nearly enough I think. Like we wanna project this kind of confidence and I think sometimes it can be detrimental to development of a child to kind of just tell 'em to trust everything everyone says or the adults around them always know what they're talking about. 'cause I think that that gives them, it's a crutch, right? To not actually have to think through like truth for yourself and define your own truth. - I think one thing that sort of remains unchanged is that how human things learn, right? We, we learn basic things first. We learn addition, subtraction and kind of keeps building up. So that will remain true whether we have AI today, generation AI or next generation AI. So I think where I see I, I don't know what is the right field to study is, but either way we still have to go through this process of learning. And I think the great promise now is that you could actually use AI to advance your learning to, you know, get gain greater even understanding sort of answer maybe in two different ways. In one way sort of personal is I studied physics because I, I was very curious as a child, so if you are a curious person, I want to learn about the world. My god, what a, you know, what an opportunity now. 'cause AI could just teach you about anything you want to know. Yeah. But if you're thinking about sort of career, like what happens next? You know, how do I make a living then no matter what, we'd have to be able to use the AI technology to make yourself like you plus AI be a more capable employee.
### 编程教育的范式转变与Anthropic的责任 我同意。尽管我确实认为一些基本原理正在改变，尤其是在我们学习事物的顺序方面。我举一个例子，你谈到了编程和计算机科学。你知道，当我学习编程时，可能和你一样，我花了**90%**的计算机科学教育时间学习如何编写代码和算法，然后可能只花了**10%**的时间学习如何阅读和审查别人的代码。而现在，在**Anthropic**，当我使用所有的**编码代理**（Coding Agents: 能够辅助或自动化编程任务的AI工具）和**Claude Code**等进行编程时，我可能只花了**10%**的时间编写代码，而**90%**的时间在阅读代码。这让我开始思考，你知道，我们作为孩子通常是先学会阅读再学会写作，对吧？但对于编程，我们常常花更多时间写作，然后才是阅读。所以这让我开始思考，我们是否需要重新审视一些基本原理，也许计算机科学入门课程的核心部分应该是思考阅读，以及如何辨别好代码和坏代码等等。所以我想让我们回到**Anthropic**在这里做什么。我认为这很重要，我们当然都知道我们肩负着责任。我们正在构建这项技术，它正在对教育系统产生影响，即使我们最初并非有意如此。因此，作为一家公司，作为一家**公益性公司**（Public Benefit Corporation: 一种旨在平衡股东利益、社会利益和环境利益的公司类型），我们有责任，尤其是作为在这家公司工作的个人，作为前教育工作者。所以，我认为谈谈我们正在做些什么，我们正在努力解决什么问题会很有帮助。**Zoe**或**Maggie**，你们想谈谈我们一直在做的**AI素养**（AI Fluency: 理解并有效、道德、安全地使用AI的能力）方面的工作吗？
Original English - I agree. Although I do think some of the, the fundamentals are changing in terms of the order in which we learn things. So one example I go back to as you know, you talked about programming and what computer science, you know, when I learned how to program, probably similar with you, I spent 90% of my CS education learning how to write code and write to algorithms and then maybe 10% of my time learning how to read other people's code and review it. And then now of course at Anthropic when I program with all the coding agents and Claude code and all of that, I spend, you know, maybe 10% of my time writing the code but 90% of my time reading the code. And so it has made me wonder, you know, we usually learn how to read before we write just as kids, - Right? - But then with coding we often spend a lot more of a time writing and then reading. And so it is starting to make me wonder like do we have to revisit some of those fundamentals and like maybe a core part of an intro is CS students education should be to think about reading and being able to discern good code from bad code and all of these things. So I do want us to bring us back to what is Anthropic doing here. I think it's important, and we all know of course that we have a responsibility here. We are building this technology that's having this impact, you know, on the education system even though it, we didn't intend it that way initially. And so we have a responsibility as a company, as a public benefit corporation, but particularly as individuals working in this company, former educators. And so I think it'd be helpful to sort of talk through what are the things we're doing, what are we wrestling with? I don't know if you know Zoe or Maggie, you want to talk about some of the work we've been doing with AI fluency?
### Anthropic的AI素养课程与产品理念 是的，是的，我很乐意开始。我从事教育内容方面的工作。所以这是我能在这个领域发挥作用的主要方式之一。我非常兴奋的一件事是我们的**AI素养**（AI Fluency: 理解并有效、道德、安全地使用AI的能力）课程。我们与两位教授**Joe Feller**和**Rick Dakan**合作，他们建立了一个非常棒的框架，用于思考如何使用AI。这很酷的地方在于，我们正在从今天可用的产品、提示工程以及你在外面看到的所有这些**技巧**（Hacks: 巧妙或非传统的方法）中退一步。有很多这样的技巧。而且它们确实很多，对吧？这让人感到非常不知所措。而且它们过时得很快。它们过时得很快。所以这里的想法是，我们希望给人们一个工具，让他们能够理解他们与AI的互动，并努力实现高效、有效、道德和安全的互动。这就是**AI素养**的定义。所以我们有这个核心课程，我认为它非常棒，然后我们还为教育工作者和学生创建了衍生课程，以及一个更长的课程，供对教授**AI素养**感兴趣的教育工作者使用。所以，这个想法是，任何完成这些课程的人都能够更好地评估他们自己的AI互动。我之前谈到过与学生一起学习以及反思AI互动的重要性。这个课程的核心就是提醒每个人，教师、学生、家长，他们在AI互动中拥有自主权。所以这是我感到兴奋的一点。
Original English - Yeah, yeah. Happy to start. So I work on education content. So that's one of the main ways that I can make a difference in this space. So one of the things I'm really excited about is our AI fluency courses. We partnered with two professors, Joe Feller and Rick Dakan, who built this really great framework about how to think about using AI. And what's cool about this is we're taking a step back from the products that are available today and the, the prompting and kind of like all these hacks that you see out in the - World, there's a lot of them - And there is a lot of them, right? It's like, it's pretty overwhelming. - And they get outdated so fast. - They get outdated so fast. And so the idea here is we wanna give people a tool that they can use to understand the interactions that they're having with AI and work towards interactions that are efficient, effective, ethical, and safe. That's the AI fluency definition. So we have this core course that I think is pretty great and then we've also created spinoff courses for educators and for students as well as a longer course for educators who are interested in teaching AI fluency. And so the idea is that anyone who goes through one of these courses is kind of better equipped to assess their own AI interactions. I talked about like learning with your students earlier and the power of reflecting on your AI interactions. And at its core that's really what this course is about. It's just reminding everyone, teachers, students, parents, that they have autonomy in their AI interactions. So that's one thing I'm excited about.
### 鼓励实验与“不使用AI”的理念 是的，我认为我们**AI素养**工作的有趣之处在于，我们正在回归基本原理。当我们开始这项**AI素养**工作时，很久以前，我不知道你是否还记得**Drew**，我们试图回答的问题是，所有这些**提示工程**（Prompt Engineering: 设计和优化给AI模型的输入以获得期望输出的技术）技巧等等，都是由人类开发的，对吧？并不是说我们**Anthropic**比其他人拥有更强大的能力。在外部，我们只是有一种不同的思考模型的方法，问题是如何将这种思维方式教给别人？是的。对**Zoe**来说，就像，在我们所有人身上，这听起来有点俗气，但我们确实有能力成为批判性思考者并参与其中。我认为有时害怕犯错会超越我们进行实验的能力。我喜欢**AI素养**的地方在于，我们正在打开实验的大门，并说你可以尝试这些东西。它们可能对你不起作用，而了解它们何时对你不起作用以及何时不应该使用AI，与了解何时可以使用AI同样重要。我认为我们在教育团队中时不时会说一句话，我认为这句话很有共鸣，那就是我们宁愿教一百万人不使用AI，也不愿看到十亿人依赖这项技术，对吧？在实践中，这可能相当困难。但我认为**AI素养**是一个非常坚实的开端。
Original English - Yeah, I think the interesting thing about our AI fluency work is the fact that we're taking a step back to the fundamentals I, when we started this AI fluency work, but way back when, I don't know if you remember Drew, the question that we were trying to answer was, you know, all of these prompt engineering tips and so on, they are developed by other humans, right? And it's not as if like we at Anthropic have greater superpowers than everyone else. Externally, we just have a different way of thinking about approaching models and it's like how do you teach that mindset? - Yeah. - To somebody. 'cause to Zoe's point, it's like, in all of us, that sounds so cheesy, but like we have that capability to be critical thinkers that engage with this. And I think sometimes the fear of needing to get it right kind of supersedes our ability to just experiment. And what I love about AI fluency is we're opening the door to experimentation and saying you can try these things. They may not work for you and it's just as important to learn when they don't work for you and when you shouldn't use AI as it is to, you know, learn when you can use it. I think there's something that we say in the education team every now and then, which I think resonates a lot, which is like we would much rather teach a million people to not use AI than like watch a billion people to become dependent on the technology, right? And in practice that can be quite hard. But AI fluency I think is a very solid start.
### Claude“学习模式”的诞生与学生反馈 我仍然记得我第一次听到你说那句话时，我非常高兴，我知道我来到了正确的公司，因为我当时在一个AI实验室，而**Maggie**却说：“是的，我认为在这种情况下我们不应该使用AI，或者让我们教人们如何不使用AI。”这就像是给他们工具，让他们自己做出决定，对吧？每次都回到批判性思维。但我认为，当然，其中一部分是教育、培训和意识，但我们也在构建在现实世界中使用的产品和模型。所以我认为**Ephraim**和你的团队在**学习模式**（Learning Mode: Claude中旨在辅导学生的特定功能）方面所做的工作是非常重要的一部分。所以我们很想让你分享更多关于它是如何产生的。**学习模式**是**Claude**作为学生导师的一系列功能。学生可以进来，例如上传他们的作业，然后它不会明确回答问题，而是会通过课堂上涵盖的材料来帮助学生。它会指导他们如何回答问题。它会辅导他们，它还会帮助他们准备考试，例如通过根据他们上传的内容展示**闪卡**（Flashcards: 用于记忆知识点的卡片）。这实际上是一项非常**草根**（Grassroots: 源自民间或基层的）的努力。公司里很多人都对教育充满热情，希望在主要产品线中添加教育工具。所以通过**学习模式**，我们所做的就是添加了一些小功能，然后调整**Claude**应用程序，使其非常擅长帮助学生学习。在此过程中，我们还添加了一些功能，例如扩展了你可以添加到项目中的内容量，以便可以放入更多内容，连接到课堂管理系统，以便内容可以非常轻松地流入和流出。所以这只是一个起点，关于我认为这在未来可能会是什么样子。
Original English - I still remember when I first heard you say that and I was so happy and I knew I'd come to the right company because here I was at an AI lab and Maggie was saying, yeah, I don't think we should use AI in this case or let's teach people how not to use AI. - It's like giving 'em the tools to make the decision on their own right - Back to critical thinking every time. - But I think, so of course part of it is an education and a training and awareness part, but we are also building products and models that are used out there in the wild. And so I think the work that Ephraim you and your team have been doing on learning mode is a really important part of it. So we'd love for you to share more about how did they even come about. - So learning mode is a set of features that positions Claude as a tutor to students. Students could come in and for example, and upload their assignments and rather than answer the questions explicitly, it would help the students through the material that is covered in their classroom. It will guide them through how to answer the question. It will tutor them, it will also help them prepare for exams for example, by showing them flashcards based on the content that they've uploaded. It's actually very much a grassroots effort. So a lot of people at the company that are really passionate about education and wanting to add education tools within the main product line. So with learning mode what we did is added, it's really is like small features here and there, but then tailor Claude app to be really good at helping students with learning. Along the line we've also added a few more features like, you know, expanding how much content you could add into projects so that more and more content can go in there, connecting to classroom management systems so that content could flow in and out very easily. So that's just the starting point and of like, you know what I think this could be in the future.
### “学习模式”的快速开发与非增长导向理念 我认为有趣的是，一些早期研究促成了**学习模式**的诞生。当我们采访大学生时，我们知道教育工作者想要某种形式的**学习模式**。他们不停地说：“你们的**学习模式**在哪里？”所以每个人都觉得：“好吧，我们现在必须构建它。”但真正让我们明白这一点的是学生们，因为他们当然使用了另一个词，那就是“**脑力退化**”（Brain Rot: 指过度依赖AI导致自身思考能力下降）。我们听到他们谈论**脑力退化**，他们意识到短期内他们可以使用AI聊天机器人来帮助他们完成作业，对吧？但当涉及到真正为期中考试学习，以及理解和内化概念时，他们想要一个版本的**Claude**，他们不必以各种不同的方式进行**提示**（Prompt: 给AI模型的指令或问题）。没错。他们不想只是给它一个作业，它就弹出答案，对吧？相反，你给它一个作业，它会引导你找到答案。如果他们在为期末考试学习，它可以展示一张**闪卡**来帮助他们记忆和学习内容。所以这就是**学习模式**，它完全改变了**Claude**的界面，使其专注于学习。这个第一个版本花了多长时间来构建？所以最初的版本实际上只用了很短的时间。有很多人对添加这项功能充满热情。我们从开始到结束大约花了**两周**时间，这太棒了。令人难以置信。是的。
Original English - And I think what's interesting is some of that early research that led into to learning mode as we were interviewing, you know, university students and we, we sort of knew that the educators wanted some form of learning mode. They kept saying, right, where's your learning mode? And so everyone was like, okay, now we have to build it. But it was really the students who I think really drove the point home for us because they of course used a different word, which is brain rot, but we heard them talking about brain rot and they, you know, realized that in the short term it could, they can use AI chat bots to like help 'em, you know, just finish an assignment, right? But when it comes to actually like studying for their midterm and like understanding and internalizing the concepts, they wanted a version of Claude where they didn't have to prompt it, you know, in all these different ways. - Exactly. They, they didn't want to just, you know, give it an assignment, it just pops the answer, - Right? - And instead you give it an assignment, it guides you through the answers. If they're studying for a final can just show a flashcard that helps them memorize and learn the content. So that is what learning mode is, is that just completely changing the interface in Claude. So it it focused on learning. - And how long did this first version take to build? - So the initial version actually took very short period of time. This is a number of people that was extremely passionate about, you know, adding this capability. It took us about two weeks from start to finish and it was amazing, - Incredible. - Yeah.
### 与外部机构合作与Anthropic的社会责任 当然，这方面的另一个方面是，我们可以开展这些培训项目，我们可以改进我们的产品和模型，但当然，关键在于我们如何与外部世界合作？我们只是一家科技公司，我们是这个更广阔生态系统中的一小部分。所以，你一直在做很多与**AFT**（American Federation of Teachers: 美国教师联合会）等机构合作的工作，我很想听听更多关于这些合作的内容，以及我们为什么如此关注它们。是的，你我都是，但，是的，我认为我们兴奋的一点是，我们有自己的课堂经验。我的经验相对过时。我在**新冠疫情**（COVID: 由新型冠状病毒引起的疾病）之前就在课堂上，我知道那是一个非常不同的时代。在**新冠疫情**之前，在AI之前。是的，在**新冠疫情**之前，在AI之前。现在基本上已经无关紧要了。但我们有机会与这些组织合作，向真正在课堂上的教师和大学教授学习，了解他们在学校中遇到的实际问题，以及真正的好处，比如哪些方面做得非常好，并充分利用这两方面，无论是通过教育材料来培训教师，还是通过产品解决方案来赋予他们更多的自主权和工具。
Original English - The other aspect of this of course is you know, we can work on these training programs, we can improve our products and our model, but then of course it's how do we partner with outside world? We're just, we're a tech company, we're a small part of this much broader ecosystem. And so, so you've been doing a lot of the work we've done partnering with institutions like the teachers union, AFT would love to hear more about what goes into those partnerships and why are we so focused on them. - Yeah, I mean you and me both but, but yeah, I think again, something we're excited about is just like we have our classroom experience. Mine is relatively outdated. I was in the classroom before COVID, like I know it's a very different- - Out there pre-COVID, pre-AI- Yeah, pre-COVID, pre-AI. It's like basically doesn't even matter anymore. But we get to partner with these organizations to learn from teachers who are actually in the classroom and professors who are in universities to understand the real problems that they're having in their schools and the real benefits like things that are going really well and lean into both of those, whether it's with education materials to train teachers up or you know, product solutions that give them more autonomy and tools. And so
### AI时代的集体问题与Anthropic的非传统目标 是的。而这颗心的核心是，这是一个集体问题，对吧？这是一个全人类的集体问题。我们离知道解决这个问题所需的一切还差得很远。我认为我们所有工作的核心主线是让更多人参与到对话中来。如果足够多的人参加**AI素养**课程，我们的希望是他们能将这些知识带到他们的机构，并开始这些对话。正如**Zoe**之前所说，学生们非常聪明，他们也非常渴望不出现**脑力退化**。我们得到的一些最好的反馈来自我们的学生用户，我认为有时我们没有给予他们足够的信任，我们认为他们肯定会想用这个来取得成就。他们会，但这是一个机构问题，不一定是人类的动机问题。我认为，我们所有产品用户得到的最佳反馈表明，他们不希望依赖这些模型。他们希望自己的**人类能力**（Human Capabilities: 人类固有的认知、情感、社交等能力）通过与AI的协作得到增强和提升。所以我为我们公司和我们的产品感到非常自豪，因为我们没有优化那种标准的**参与度指标**（Engagement Metrics: 衡量用户与产品互动程度的指标），我们不试图优化留存率，或者你花在产品上的时间，或者对产品的依赖性。我们现在和未来都会做出积极的产品决策，这些决策有时实际上会鼓励更强的**增强思维**（Augmented Thinking: AI辅助下的人类思维），或者再次鼓励你何时不使用AI，或者像孩子们说的那样，“**触碰草地**”（Touch Grass: 指脱离虚拟世界，回归现实生活）。所以我很高兴我们能继续沿着这条道路走下去。
Original English - Yeah. And the, the heart of this, this is like, this is a collective issue, right? Like a humanity wide collective issue. And we are far from knowing every single thing that we need to help resolve this. I think like the through line for all of our work is to bring more people into the conversation. Like if enough people take AI fluency courses, our hope is that then they bring that knowledge to their institutions and start these conversations. And to what Zoe was saying before, students are really smart and they're also really engaged in the desire to not have brain rot. Like some of the best feedback that we get comes from our student users who I think sometimes we don't give the credit for that we think, well they're gonna definitely wanna achieve with this. They're gonna, but it's an institutional problem, not necessarily a human, I guess motivation problem. I think, I think that our, our best feedback, like from all of our product users indicates that they don't want this reliance on these models. They want to feel like their own human capabilities are augmented and improved by this collaboration with AI. So I'm like very proud of us in general in our products for not optimizing for kind of the standard engagement metrics where we're not trying to optimize for retention or you know, how much time you spend on the product or dependency on the product. And we make active product decisions, you know, now and into the future that sometimes actually encourage that greater augmented thinking or encourage again times when you don't use AI or as the kids call it, touch grass, right? So I'm excited for us to keep going down that pathway.
### AI部署的深思熟虑与教育的本质 是的，实际上，加入**Anthropic**最让我惊讶的事情之一是，它不是一家以增长为导向的公司，对吧？大多数**SaaS公司**（Software as a Service: 软件即服务）都希望优化用户留存率等所有这些指标，而**Anthropic**对我们产品的成功有着更广阔的视角，我认为这非常有趣。在我们的产品开发中。这不仅适用于我们的教育计划，也适用于我们构建的所有其他产品。是的。这不是为了让用户沉迷于产品。这真的是为了让AI得到有益的部署并影响社会。我认为我们触及的一点是，在某个地方使用AI或不使用AI的每一个决定都是一个深思熟虑的选择。我不认为我们正在朝着AI无处不在的屏幕路径前进，希望我们公司所做的工作、我们制造的东西、我们以特定方式构建产品的选择能够起到榜样作用，并邀请人们开始意识到，一切都是经过深思熟虑的选择，有时选择不使用AI也同样好，甚至更好，对吧？我非常不希望看到一个未来，教师将教育中那些我认为真正构成良好教育的部分外包给AI，即当你真正了解你的学生并能花时间与他们在一起时的连接部分。AI可以通过多种方式使用，让教师有更多时间做那种工作。我很高兴我们能随着时间的推移与机构交流，并与他们讨论如何放大他们已有的知识，对吧？我们合作的专家通常对AI何时积极损害教育成果有相当清晰的看法。而我们的工作就是倾听并尝试将其付诸实施，无论是在我们的产品中还是在我们的教育计划中。
Original English - Yeah, and I actually, that was one of the most surprising things to me joining Anthropic was that it's, it's not a growth optimized company like right? Like most SaaS companies wanna optimize for users retention, all these things and has a much broader perspective on what success looks like in our products, which I think is really interesting - In our product development. That's not just true for the education initiatives that we had, but for everything else we build Yeah. Isn't about keeping users engaged in the product. This really is about having AI be beneficially deployed and impact society. - I think we touched on is that like every decision to use AI somewhere or not as a deliberate choice? I don't think that we are kind of on a screen path towards AI and like being every single place and hopefully the work that we do as a company and the things we make, the choices we make to build our product in certain ways can lead by example and also invite people in to start realizing that everything is a deliberate choice and it is just as good and sometimes better to just choose not to sometimes, right? Like I would hate to see a future where teachers outsource to AI the parts that I think really make good education, which is the connection pieces when you really understand your students and can spend time with them and AI can be used in so many ways that allow teachers to have more time to do that kind of work. And I'm excited for us to kind of over time talk with institutions and discuss with them ways where we can amplify that knowledge they already have, right? The experts we partner with have generally a, a decently clear opinion on when AI is actively harming the educational outcomes. And it's just our job to listen and to try to implement that either in our products or in our educational program.
### AI时代教育的未解之谜 所以我们谈了很多关于我们个人对AI教育的看法，以及我们作为一家公司正在做些什么，但我们肯定还没有解决所有问题。那么，我们仍然不确定的事情是什么呢？我很想听听你们所有人的看法，我们还在努力解决哪些问题。我有几件事要说，它们都非常不同。但我们之前提到的一点是，AI正在改变你需要教授的内容。你提到了编程，我们非常确定编程课程在五年内会大不相同。我很想看看情况会如何转变，以及我们是否能开发出任何框架或任何东西来帮助学术界在这些领域理解哪些技能在未来可能会被更多地增强，以及哪些技能将需要额外的人类支持，比如审查或管理。我认为我们正在计算机科学等领域开始理解这一点，但这还非常非常早期，我们知道这会影响更多领域。是的。所以尤其是在高等教育领域，这是我感兴趣的一点。我听到很多关于K-12教育中不同工具的担忧，以及试图理解当你将数据放入这些工具中时会发生什么。我认为现在，AI工具在课堂上大量涌现，教师和管理者都感到非常不知所措，原因非常充分。有很多概念对每个人来说都是全新的。数据隐私的某些方面是新的，而且难以理解。所以我非常想看看这种局面会如何演变。我们是否需要真正加强数据隐私方面的教育，以便人们能更好地评估现状，或者我们是否会看到这个领域出现明显的赢家。我只是非常想看看会发生什么。
Original English - So we've talked a lot about, you know, what, what our personal views are on AI education, what we're doing as a, as a company, but we definitely haven't solved it, so, so what are the things we're still uncertain about? I mean I'd be curious for all your takes on this, you know, what are the things we're still trying to figure out. - I have a couple things go ahead. Both pretty different, but one thing we touched on earlier is AI is changing, like what it is that you need to teach. You brought up coding, we are pretty sure that coding curriculums will look very different in five years. I'm interested to see how things start to shift and if there's any like frameworks or really anything that we can develop to help academics along in these areas to understand what kinds of skills may be more augmented in the future and which kinds of skills are gonna need additional human support like reviews or management. I think we're starting to understand that in areas like computer science, but it's very, very early and we know that this is gonna affect a lot more fields. Yeah. So especially in higher education, that's something I'm interested in. I hear a lot of concerns in K 12 about the different tools and trying to understand what hap what happens to the data when you put it in those tools. And I think right now there's this like massive proliferation of AI tools in classrooms and teachers and administrators are really overwhelmed for very good reasons. Like there's a lot of concepts that are really new to everyone. There are elements of the data privacy that is new and hard to understand. And so I'm really interested to see how that landscape evolves. Whether we need to really ramp up our education around data privacy so people can better assess the landscape or whether we start to like, you know, see clear winners in this space. I'll just be really interested to see what happens there.
### 机构适应性、教育“解绑”与评估过程 我认为除此之外，技术确实变化迅速。所以我担心的一点是，我不确定它会如何随着时间推移而演变，那就是机构将如何适应？它们通常行动缓慢，而且是故意这样构建的。而技术变化的速度非常快。很难预测六个月或一年后会发生什么。所以我认为这种变化的速度与机构通常适应新技术的方式，是我不确定的一点。我还认为，所有机构都感到巨大的压力，认为自己必须对AI做些什么，而不是无所作为。而且，你知道，我不知道如何平衡或帮助组织平衡这种压力是真实存在的，但当涉及到教育时，尤其是在快速行动和打破常规是不可行的时候，对吧？这对于个体教师以及整个机构来说都非常具有挑战性。我有点称之为教育的“**解绑**”（Unbundling: 将传统上捆绑在一起的服务或功能分开）。一个仅仅是知识本身，AI非常擅长提供个性化教育，但机构提供的不仅仅是将知识传授给学生。另一个方面是，我确实有两个孩子在大学，他们不仅仅是在那里学习，那也是他们成长、成熟、学习责任等等的地方。所以AI非常擅长解决的是知识、知识传授和学习。我认为我们作为社会向前发展必须做的是，我们如何在知识转移部分利用AI，同时保留这些机构在社会中扮演的所有重要角色。
Original English - I think in addition to that, I mean the technology is really changing rapidly. So one of the concerns I'm not sure how it sort of will play out over time is how will institutions adapt? They're generally slow moving and intentionally built that way. And the technology pace of change has been very rapid. It's harder to predict like what would happen six months from now or a year from now. So I think that pace of change to how institutions generally adapt a new technology is one area that I'm uncertain about. I - Also think that like just everywhere, every institution feels an immense amount of pressure to just do something with AI instead of doing nothing. And I, you know, I have no idea how to kind of balance or help organizations balance the fact that pressure is really real, but also when it comes to education, especially moving fast and breaking things is not an option, right? And that's just so challenging for both the individual teacher but also the entire institution at large. - I kind of call this unbundling of education. One is just the knowledge itself, which this AI is really good at providing personalized education, but institutions provide more than just knowledge imparting knowledge into students. The other is really like I have two children in, in college, it's not just learning they're getting theirs, but also that's where they're growing, that's where they're maturing learning responsibility and and so forth. So what AI solves, you know, very like really well is knowledge, impart knowledge and learning. I think what we would have to do as society moving forward is how do we leverage AI in the knowledge transfer part but also retain these institutions for all of the great roles that they play in society,
### 教师减负与AI评估的未来 对。将一些部分分开，例如，一个优秀教育工作者的成功衡量标准不是做所有这些事情的每一个部分，但我认为你所说的是，是的，没错。多做一件事，然后让AI处理那些可能以知识获取为导向的事情，而不是，我不知道，与学生的关系，对吧？没错。没错。我的意思是，例如，我们访问大学时收到的反馈之一是，虽然AI作业非常有吸引力，那是他们想做的事情。但AI作业意味着学生与AI合作，因此大量的作业集可能需要六个月才能完成，但他们可能最终只需要两周。你如何批改它们？对吧？对。所以，AI的参与意味着，当你利用AI来完成学习方面的工作时，可以发生大量的学习，而且速度快得多。那么，那些教师机构为学生提供的所有其他东西呢？我认为这就是“**解绑**”的地方，你知道，只是利用技术和机构所做的一切的正确部分。是的。我的意思是，我认为最好的情况是大规模减少**教师倦怠**，这是大多数教师面临的头号问题。如果你“**解绑**”，你可能会做得更少？每个教育工作者在某些方面都非常有才华，这些事情给他们带来很多能量，他们在这方面非常出色。如果AI能在那些不给他们带来能量的事情上支持他们呢？我认为这只会为他们的个人生活以及他们所支持的学生创造一个更全面的系统。
Original English - Right. To separate out some of the pieces such, exactly like the success metric of a good educator is not to do every single part of this thing, but I think what you're saying is like yes, correct. Do more of one thing and then let AI handle things that are like maybe knowledge like acquisition oriented but not like, I don't know a relationship with the student, right? - Correct. Correct. I mean one of the feedback for example we've received when we were visiting universities is that while AI assignments are very compelling, that's something they would like to do. But AI assignment means students with AI therefore large assignment sets that might take say six months, but they could end up taking like two weeks. How do you grade them? - Right? - Right. So there is a lot of AI involvement means there's a lot of learning that could happen much, much quickly as you leverage AI to do the learning aspect of it. What about everything else that is those teachers institutions are providing the students. I think that is where that's unbundling and you know, just leveraging all the right pieces from both the technology but what institutions do. - Yeah. And I mean I think the best case scenario of this is reducing burnout at scale, which is like the number one issue facing most of the teachers. - If you unbundle you can maybe do less? - Where every educator is really, really talented at some things and those things bring them a lot of energy and they're exceptional at it. And what if AI could, you know, support them in the things that don't bring them energy. And I think that just creates a much more well-rounded system for their personal lives and then also for the students that they're supporting.
### AI的真正力量在于过程与辨别真伪 这次对话也让我想起了我们为教育工作者提供的**AI素养**课程中一个非常引人注目的部分，那就是让AI如此深入地融入作业、体验等等。然后转而开始评估AI的使用，而不是过多地评估结果。对，对。回到如何思考这些长期项目，或者在这个AI世界中事物有何不同，拥有这种参与度是非常不同的，而且是一种AI前瞻性的方式，我很高兴看到更多机构采纳。我认为你说得对，在我们的对话中出现的一件事是，当你创造时，你不一定只是创造最终结果，而是你创造了学生如何达到那个结果的过程。他们如何使用技术？这种来回的互动也成为学习的一部分。我们的一位首席营销人员曾有一次坐下来对我说：“你知道，我认为AI真正的力量在于过程。”是的。我认为这确实是我们想要表达的核心，对吧？是的。对。
Original English - This conversation is also reminding me of like a, a part of the AI Fluency curriculum we have for educators that I found super compelling, which is to have AI be so integrated, like into the assignments, the experience and so on. And to instead start grading AI use and not grade the outcomes as much. Right, right. Going back to like how do you think about these long-term projects or how things differ in this AI world, having that kind of engagement is, is very different and AI forward in a way that I'm excited for more institutions to adopt. - I think you're right on like, you know, in our sort of conversation one of the things have come up is when you create, you're not necessarily just creating the final result, but you've created, how did students arrive to that result? How did they use the technology? What is the back and forth that also becomes part of the what learning is. - One of our, one of our chief marketing folks here one time sat down with me and just said, you know, I think the true power of AI is the process. - Yes. - And I think that that's really the core of what we're getting at, right? Yeah. - Right.
### AI与人类认知：自信与真相的挑战 我还好奇从模型训练的角度来看，我们能做些什么来调和，我想我曾与一位研究**认识论哲学**（Philosophy of Epistemics: 探讨知识的性质、来源、范围和有效性的哲学分支）的人进行了一次非常棒的对话，他们提出了一个很好的观点，即AI比人类遇到的任何其他智能都更容易表现出极度的自信，对吧？或者可以说出听起来非常真实的话。而通常，在人类身上，需要大量的魅力和练习才能成为一个能够说出那些话但并非真实的人。但有了AI，你总是会遇到这种情况，而我们人类辨别真伪的能力是基于我们如何辨别其他人，这在应用于AI时可能不会成功。对吧？这是一个完全不同的问题，需要解开并弄清楚你如何才能，你是否将AI的个性更多地匹配到那个领域？或者你开始教人们一种新的辨别真相的方式？我的**大胆预测**（Hot Take: 个人强烈且通常有争议的观点）是，我认为后者可能更强大，因为它也是对所有形式的**说服性写作**（Persuasive Writing: 旨在说服读者接受某种观点或采取行动的写作）和**说服性思维**（Persuasive Thinking: 旨在影响他人信念或行为的思维过程）的一种很好的**免疫**（Inoculation: 预防性措施），无论它是否是AI或人类。但这种批判性思维，回到AI只是迫使我们调和已经存在的事实，我认为教授这种批判性思维真的很难。
Original English - I'm also curious from like a model training perspective, what we can do to reconcile how, like I think I was having a, I had a really great conversation with someone who studied the philosophy of epistemics, right? Like how do you know something is true? And they made a great point about how AI more easily than any other kind of intelligence that humans have encountered can be really confident, right? Or can can say things that sound so realistic. And it usually, in a human being, it takes a lot of charisma and practice to get to be someone who can say that and not say true things. But with AI, you're kind of encountering all the time and our human ability to discern what is true and what isn't is based on how we discern in other humans, which may not be successful when you're applying to AI. Right? And that's a whole different thing to unravel and figure out how you can, do you match the AI personality more to that area? Or do you start teaching people of a new way of discerning truth? And I mean my hot take is I think that like the latter one is a little more powerful because it's also a good inoculation against all forms of like persuasive writing, persuasive thinking regardless of whether or not it's an AI or a human being. But that critical thinking, going back to the fact that AI is just forcing us to reconcile things that already exist, I think that teaching that critical thinking is really hard. Right.
### AI原生代与未来的教育愿景 是的。这又回到了**儿童心理学**（Child Psychology: 研究儿童心理发展和行为的学科），对吧？我们现在有整整一代**数字原住民**（Digital Natives: 从小接触数字技术的人），他们可以非常清楚地识别垃圾短信，而这对于一些人来说非常困难。那么，**AI原生代**（AI Native Generation: 在AI技术普及环境下成长的一代人）是什么样的？它会是什么样子？它对儿童发展有什么影响？这些都是我们尚不了解的事情。好吧，为了结束这次对话，因为我想我们可以一直聊下去，我很想听听你们所有人，当我们展望五年后，教学和学习的成功会是什么样子？五年对于预测AI世界来说是一个疯狂的时间。我想我只能告诉你我的希望，对吧？我不知道成功会是什么样子，但我知道我希望的是，在教育机构中，教师有更多的时间单独参与到关系和培养部分。你知道，回到**Ephraim**的观点，也许教师参与的不是知识获取部分，而是将这些知识综合到你生活和世界的更大生态系统中，并理解如何最好地帮助每个个体学习。因为在未来，我们仍然是独特的个体，庆祝和强调这种独特性是我希望我们能在教育中实现的目标。
Original English - Yeah. And this goes back to like child psychology, right? Like we have this whole generation of digital natives now who can very clearly identify a spam text when that's like really difficult for some folks. And like what is the AI native generation? What does that look like? And what impacts does it have on on kids development? Like there's just things we don't know yet. - Well, to close this out, because I think we could go on forever, I would love to hear from all of you as we think about five years out, what's a success look like for teaching and learning? - Five years is a crazy kind of time to predict the AI world. I guess I'll give you my hope, right? I don't know if I know what success looks like, but I do know what I hope for, which is that in educational institutions we have like teachers have so much more time to engage individually in the relationships and the fostering portion of it. You know, going back to Ephraim's point, like maybe it's not the knowledge acquisition part of things that teachers participate in as much versus like synthesizing that knowledge into the greater ecosystem of your life and the world and understanding how any given individual can best be helped to learn. 'cause we're still all unique individuals in this future and celebrating and emphasizing that uniqueness is something that I hope we can get to with education,
### 个性化辅导、批判性思维与人性的回归 对。我认为五年是很长一段时间，但对我来说，到那时成功将是地球上的每个人都能随时拥有一个**个性化导师**。而且，如果我们成功地完成了这一转变，我们的机构将得以幸存，并继续在我们的社会中发挥它们已经扮演的关键作用。是的。对我来说，我认为这又回到了批判性思维的部分。我希望每个人，真的，每个学生，每个老师，都能对使用AI和学习的意义有一个共同的词汇和文化理解。我认为需要更多的判断力和反思，并且在使用AI时要有意图。我知道我感觉自己像个坏掉的唱片一样重复，但如果每个学生都能清楚地表达他们何时想使用AI，何时不想使用，以及为什么，那不是很好吗？那种关于你自己的习惯、你如何思考以及你如何最好地学习的知识。那种知识的**个性化**（Personalization: 根据个人需求和偏好进行定制）是如此令人兴奋。我想，这是一种简写式的**启发法**（Heuristic: 经验法则，用于快速解决问题的方法），可以描述成功可能是什么样子。或者另一方面，他们不必做出那个决定，因为技术，技术，是的。产品本身也得到了很好的采纳，这意味着两者——产品、体验和教育都必须齐头并进。没错。
Original English - Right? I think five years is a very long time, but I think success to me by then will look like every person on the planet has a personalized tutor ready for them at any time. And then also if we've made that transition successfully, our institutions will have survived and are playing the vital role they already play in our society. - Yeah. For me, I think it's going back to that critical thinking piece. I want every person really, every student, every teacher to have a shared vocabulary and cultural understanding around what it means to use AI and learning. I think just a lot more discernment and reflection on and just being intentional about using AI. - I know I feel like I go back to this like a broken record, but wouldn't it be great if like every single student could articulate when they want to use AI when they don't want to and why? Like that kind of knowledge about your own habits and how you think and how you learn best. That personalization of knowledge is so exciting. And I's like, that's a shorthand heuristic, I guess for what success could look like. - Or maybe on the other hand, like they don't have to make that decision because technology, - The technology, yeah. The product - Is the product itself as well adopted, meaning both of those- - Together, definitely the product and the experience and the education all have to go hand in hand. Exactly.
### AI时代：提出好问题的时代 我认为我一直回到的一点，对我来说带来了乐观。因为在这项工作中有时会有很多悲观情绪，比如工作正在改变，我们不知道我们的工作会是什么样子。还有我们对任何发生的事情都感到很大的个人责任。但与此同时，我确实看到在一个智能变得丰富甚至商品化的世界里，我认为那将不再是我们作为人类的定义特质。这在某些时候可能会令人恐惧。但我也认为这是解放性的，因为在过去的几百年里，我几乎觉得我们失去了一些人性，因为，你知道，我们经历了工业革命，我们能够做所有这些事情，但我们也像去办公室一样，做着任务，并通过我们所做的工作来定义自己。而那可能不是我们五年后能做得最好的事情。但教师所做的、医生所做的许多事情是真正人性的，而不是智能，你知道吗？所以，我几乎对那些被剥离掉的东西感到兴奋。因此，对于我们，我认为我们的教育系统核心在于，真正专注于什么使我们成为人类。一位**牛津大学**教授曾说过一句很棒的话，我一直都在思考，他说：“我认为AI时代将是提出好问题的时代。”这并不是说需要知道很多东西，对吧？它只是关于好奇心，然后对你得到的回报保持一点判断力和怀疑，这反过来会产生更好的问题。我认为有了口袋里的AI，有了**个性化导师**，问题空间的世界已经极大地开放，远远超出了人类历史上我们所拥有的一切。我们只需要引导人们形成能够提出好问题的思维模式。从来没有比现在更好的时机来面对问题。从来没有比现在更好的时机来面对问题。我认为这是一个完美的结局。非常感谢大家。感谢你们抽出时间。
Original English - I think the thing I keep going back to, which to me brings optimism. 'cause some days in this work there's a lot of pessimism of jobs are changing and we have no idea what my, you know, our jobs are - And a lot of personal responsibility that we feel over any, you know, things that happen. - But at the same time, I do see in a world where, you know, intelligence is becoming abundant and in some ways commoditized, I think that will, you know, no longer be our defining trait as as humans. And that can be scary at some point. But I also think that's liberating because for the last few hundred years I almost feel like we've lost some of our humanity as we, you know, you have the industrial revolution and we're able to do all these things, but we're also like going into offices and doing tasks and defining our ourselves by the work that we do. And that may not be the thing that we can do best, you know, five years from now. But there are so many things that a teacher does that a doctor does that are truly human, that are not intelligence, you know? And so I, I almost am excited for the things to sort of strip away. And so for us, and I think our education systems at the core of it, to really focus on what makes this human. - There's an Oxford professor that said this, this great quote I think about all the time, which is he says, I think the age of AI will be the age of asking good questions. And like that's something that doesn't necessarily come from knowing a lot, right? It's just about being curious and then also being a little discerning and skeptical about things you get in return, which then yield better questions. And I think with AI in our pockets, the personal tutors, like the world of the question space has opened up immensely and way beyond anything else we've ever had in human history. And we just kind of have to steward people towards the mindset that allows them to ask good questions. - There's never been a better time to have a problem. - There's never been a better time to have a problem. - I think that's a perfect way to end. Well thank you all. Thanks for taking the time.