--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-16' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09aEvX-QAYA speaker: TVO Today tags: - steel-industry - trade-war - foreign-investment - industrial-policy - nationalization title: 渥太华能否阻止斯泰尔科汉密尔顿裁员潮？美加贸易战阴影下的加拿大钢铁业危机 summary: 本期访谈聚焦加拿大老牌钢铁企业斯泰尔科在被美资克利夫兰-克利夫斯收购后宣布裁员500人的风波。工会主席罗恩·韦尔斯与学者韦恩·莱夫丘克深入剖析企业毁约背后的贸易战政治筹码、加拿大制造业外资所有权隐患，并探讨了政府诉讼、撤资乃至将钢铁业国有化的应对策略。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: macro-economy area: geopolitics project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - Stelco - Cleveland-Cliffs - USW products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 裁员风暴与厂区情绪 **主持人**: 昨天，联邦政府宣布，鉴于**斯泰尔科**（**Stelco**）近期的裁员决定，他们准备对该公司提起诉讼。同时，联邦政府还正与安大略省合作，共同投资超过20万加元用于工人的再培训和技能提升，据称这是为了“帮助保护汉密尔顿地区的钢铁及制造业工人”。但是，政府做得足够多吗？对于这些工人和整个钢铁行业来说，目前的未来前景究竟如何？**罗恩·韦尔斯**（**Ron Wells**）、**韦恩·莱夫丘克**（**Wayne Lewchuk**），非常荣幸能邀请两位做客《The Rundown》节目。罗恩，我想先从你这里开始。斯泰尔科上周公布了裁员决定，并定于10月9日——也就是两天后——正式启动。你作为代表该厂工人的工会主席，请帮我们了解一下，你能形容一下目前你的工会成员们在厂区现场的情绪是怎样的吗？
Original English **Host**: Yesterday, the federal government announced they're willing to bring a lawsuit against Stelco because of the layoffs. They're also partnering with Ontario to invest more than $200,000 in retraining and upskilling to, quote, help protect steel and manufacturing workers in the Hamilton area. But is government doing enough? And how's the future looking right now for those workers and the industry? Ron Wells, Wayne Lewchuk, great to have you on The Rundown. Ron, I want to start with you. Layoffs at Stelco were announced last week and are set to begin on October 9th, two days. You are the president of the union representing the workers there. Help me understand. Can you characterize the mood in the room right now with your members right now?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 现场交织着许多种情绪。你知道，大家普遍感到焦虑，没有人能看清未来。一些工友确实非常担忧，显然，因为他们是家里的主要经济支柱。但最主要、最压倒一切的情绪是愤怒。大家既心烦意乱又极其愤怒。我们认为这次裁员是完全没有必要的。我们在被当作一场贸易战政治博弈中的棋子。我们坚信斯泰尔科完全可以依靠销售本地制造的产品来维持良好运营。所以，愤怒是目前整座工厂里最弥漫的情绪。
Original English **Ron Wells**: Well, there's many emotions. There's you know, there's anxiety. No one's sure of the future. Some members are actually they're obviously concerned because, you know, they're the main breadwinners in the household. But the overriding feeling is people are upset. They're angry. We feel that this layoff is unnecessary. It's we're being used as pawns in a political game in a trade war. So we think Stelco could make a go of it in the glove selling Guelph products and anger is the overriding mood in the plant.
**主持人**: 自从这项裁员声明发布以来，工会和斯泰尔科公司管理层之间有过沟通交涉吗？
Original English **Host**: Has there been any conversations between the union and Stelco since this announcement?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 嗯，我们刚刚才进行了谈判，逐一核对裁员名单以及裁员具体将如何执行。听起来整个过程将持续三周时间。我们正在竭尽全力确保资历条款（seniority）能够尽可能得到尊重。显然，资方一直在抵制推诿，他们声称需要保留某些特定技能的人员来维持工厂运转。我们始终坚持将工龄资历作为第一优先原则，但我们也明白工厂确实需要继续运作。这就是我们之间仅有的实质性沟通。
Original English **Ron Wells**: Well, we just had talks going through the layoff list and how it's going to occur. It sounds like it's going to be over a three week period. We're trying to make sure seniority is honoured as much as possible. Obviously, the company pushes back and they claim they need certain skills to run the place. We always like to see seniority be the number one priority, but we understand the place is still run. So that's the only real conversations we've had.
**主持人**: 我想这一定非常艰难，罗恩。亲自去过目那份名单，看着那些由你代表的工人——其中有些人你可能个人就非常熟悉，而且你也深知在每一个名字背后都是一个个鲜活的家庭。汉密尔顿是一个被称为“**钢铁之城**”（**Steel Town**）的社区，眼睁睁看着如此巨大的冲击降临于此。
Original English **Host**: I imagine that must be tough, Ron, to go through a list and seeing some of the people that you represent, who you know, you may personally know, but also know that, you know, there's families at the end of this. This is a community that is known as Steel Town to see sort of this big impact.
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 是的，一点也没错。甚至有工龄长达25年的老员工在第一轮就要被裁掉，而且情况可能还会进一步恶化。不幸的是，裁员范围极大概率还会扩大，因为他们直接砍掉了两个完整的部门，波及将近350人，这打击将是毁灭性的。
Original English **Ron Wells**: No, absolutely. There's people with 25 years service that are getting laid off in the first round, and it could go deeper than that. It probably will, unfortunately, because they're laying off two complete departments so close to 350 people, it's going to be devastating.
### 外资收购与违背承诺 **主持人**: 韦恩，在2024年政府批准**克利夫兰-克利夫斯**（**Cleveland-Cliffs**）收购斯泰尔科时，该公司曾白纸黑字承诺：“将继续雇用至少与交易宣布时相同数量的工会员工，以及绝大多数非工会员工”。请帮我们分析一下，他们为什么会公然违背这样的承诺？
Original English **Host**: Wayne, when the government approved the Cleveland-cliffs takeover of Stelco in 2024, the company promised to, quote, continue to employ at least the same number of unionized employees and the vast majority of non-unionized employees as were employed when the transaction was announced. Help me understand here why would they break such a promise?
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 道理很简单，因为他们是一家跨国大公司，而且他们自视甚高，觉得规则根本约束不了自己。不遵守规则，近来似乎成了一种颇为流行的做派。而不按规矩出牌，正是他们现在所做的事情。他们根本不履行自己当初作出的承诺。讽刺的是，如果你点开克利夫兰-克利夫斯公司的官方网站，他们还高调宣称自己的指导原则之一是“道德行为准则”。然而在我看来，悍然撕毁这种具有法律效力的协议，无论如何都谈不上道德。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: Well, because they're a big company and they feel they don't have to play by the rules. That seems to be a bit of a fashion these days. Not playing by the rules. And this is exactly what they're doing. They're not honouring their commitments. And the irony is, if you go to Cleveland-cliffs website, they claim that one of their guiding principles is ethical behaviour. And I would suggest breaking this kind of a contract is hardly ethical.
**主持人**: 我需要特别说明的是，在录制本期节目之前，我们确实联系了斯泰尔科公司方面，但截至播出时尚未收到他们的任何回应。韦恩，请帮我们在宏观层面上分析一下，这种规模的裁员究竟会对整个汉密尔顿地区产生怎样的连锁反应？
Original English **Host**: I should mention that we did reach out to Stelco in time for this taping, but we did not hear from them. Wayne, help me understand on a macro level, what effects do layoffs of this size have on the Hamilton area?
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 确实如此。我是说，这涉及整整500人。对于即将失去饭碗的500名工人及其家庭而言，这无疑是晴天霹雳。这意味着汉密尔顿及其周边地区有500个家庭将陷入困境。这些岗位都是薪水优厚的好工作，是能够提供完善福利和医疗健康保障的体面职业。因此，这绝对是一个牵一发而动全身的大问题。 我想，大家或许需要结合汉密尔顿与斯泰尔科的历史渊源，从更长远的历史视角来看待这件事。要知道，在1980年代初我刚来到汉密尔顿的时候，斯泰尔科一度雇用了26,000名员工。在随后的几十年里，我们目睹了就业岗位如同水龙头漏水般持续不断地下滑，有时甚至是断崖式的剧烈暴跌，一直跌落到如今在汉密尔顿及周边地区仅剩两三千人为斯泰尔科工作。但是，失去500个工作岗位绝对不是一件可以等闲视之的小事，这毫无疑问是极其令人揪心的。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: Yeah. I mean, this is 500 people. I mean, it's very bad news for the 500 people who are going to lose their jobs for their families. That's, you know, 500 families in and around Hamilton. These are good paying jobs. You know, these were jobs that provided benefits and health care benefits. So it is it is a big issue. I guess you you sort of need to keep a bit in perspective in terms of Hamilton's history with Stelco and keeping in mind that in the early 80s, when I when I first came to Hamilton, Stelco used to employ 26,000 people. And so we've seen a very, very steady drip and sometimes quite a sudden drop in jobs to the point now where we have a couple thousand people in Hamilton and area working for Stelco. But, you know, 500 jobs is not is not something to not be concerned about for sure.
### 政府补贴与违约成本 **主持人**: 韦恩，我们也知道斯泰尔科辩称他们做出这些裁员削减是为了保护公司的生存与运营能力。我很好奇，如果这些大型跨国企业日后可以如此轻易地出尔反尔，那么当初政府和它们达成的协议到底还有什么价值？
Original English **Host**: Now, Wayne, you know, Stelco did say that they are making these cuts to protect the viability of the company. And I'm curious, are these agreements worth it if these companies are just going to renege on them later?
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 是的，这正是眼下大家都在普遍质疑的一个尖锐问题，因为克利夫兰-克利夫斯和斯泰尔科绝不是唯一毁约违约的企业。坦白讲，在特定情况下，我并不反对政府介入去援助企业。我们确实见过不少成功的先例，政府的介入切实保住了就业岗位并促进了就业规模的扩大。 但与此同时，你也确实会遭遇眼下的这种窘境——我们在斯泰尔科身上看到了，在布兰普顿关停工厂的**斯特兰蒂斯**（**Stellantis**）身上也看到了。企业当初拿到了承诺，转头却根本不遵守承诺。因此，我认为我们需要极其严肃地反思并审视我们应对这些问题的机制。 我认为最不可取的做法是一刀切地说“我们彻底关掉补贴的水龙头”。那绝不是我们应该走的路。我们真正要做的是弄清楚如何更聪明、更精明地发放这些财政补贴，以及当这些企业违背誓言时，我们该如何更聪明地予以反制。必须让这些企业清醒地意识到，协议里的承诺是不可逾越的铁律，绝不是他们为了套取政府资金而随口编造的幌子。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: Yeah, that's that's that's a question that's in the air at the present moment because Cleveland-cliffs and Stelco are not the only ones who are reneging on a deal. You know, I'll be frank with you. I am not against the government stepping in to help firms in certain situations. And we've seen a number of cases where that has led to the preservation of preservation of jobs and expansions of employment, and you do get cases, you know, we're seeing here in Stelco and now we're seeing in Stellantis up in Brampton, where they've closed that plant where, you know, they got promises and they're not abiding those promises. And so I think, you know, we need to look seriously at how we how we deal with these things. I think the wrong approach would be to say we're shutting off the taps completely. That's just not what we want to do. What we want to figure out is how to be smarter with the subsidies that we hand out and be smarter when these firms renege on their promises, they need to be convinced that these promises are real, not something that they make up just to get the money.
**主持人**: 罗恩，我也想听听你对这方面的看法。你身处谈判桌前，各方左右承诺的话你听得太多了。请帮我们理解一下，当这些协议提前数年签好，信誓旦旦地说“我们绝不会裁员，我们会保障员工就业”，可仅仅过了两年，他们就单方面拔掉插头毁约。面对这种变故，你内心是何种感受？
Original English **Host**: Ron, I want to get your take on here. You know, you're on the table of negotiating tables. You hear promises left, right and centre. But help me understand, when these agreements are made years ahead saying, you know, we're not we're not going to do this. We will keep people employed. But then two years later, they pull the plug on it. How does that feel?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 嗯，坦白讲，“失望”这个词的分量远远不足以形容我们的愤怒与震惊。两年前当克利夫兰-克利夫斯寻求收购我们而初次与工会会面时，我们就毫不客气地告诉过他们当年**美国钢铁公司**（**U.S. Steel**）给这里带来的血泪教训——在2008年金融危机时，美钢直接闲置停工了两处业务基地，将所有的生产作业全部抽回整合到他们位于美国的本土工厂。 当时我们向他们详尽阐述了我们的顾虑，而克利夫兰-克利夫斯的首席执行官**洛伦索·冈萨尔维斯**（**Lorenzo Goncalves**）信誓旦旦地对我们说：“相信我们，我们和美国钢铁公司完全不一样，我们会向你们证明这一点的。”不仅如此，他们还在《加拿大投资法》（Investment Canada Act）框架下签署了正式协议，并公开发布在他们自己的官网上。正如韦恩刚才提到的，他们公开宣传自己的庄严承诺，白纸黑字写着“五年内不削减任何工会工人”。这不仅在他们的官网上，在加拿大联邦政府的官方网站上也清清楚楚地公示着。 说实话，我对总理**马克·卡尼**（**Mark Carney**）和部长**梅拉妮·若利**（**Mélanie Joly**）迅速采取果断行动感到非常欣慰。他们第一时间致信斯泰尔科，要求对方限期给出交代，必须讲清楚这次裁员事件背后的真实原因。我们真心希望政府能够动用一切法定权力，对他们严厉追责。如果强制剥离或撤资（divestment）是备选工具之一，那就坚决执行！我认为加拿大必须杀一儆百立下规矩，决不能任由外国财团大摇大摆地进入我们的国家，肆无忌惮地践踏自己签下的协议。过去人们常说“加拿大敞开大门做生意”，但前提是必须有维护加拿大人利益的游戏规则，而这些规则必须得到不折不扣的铁腕执行。
Original English **Ron Wells**: Well, I mean, disappointment isn't really a strong enough adjective. When we met cliffs back two years ago, when they were looking to purchase us, we told them our experience with U.S. steel how in zero eight, they idled both operations and they consolidated operations at their US plants. So we we described our concerns and Lorenzo and the CEO of Cleveland-cliffs says, trust us, we're nothing like U.S. steel will prove it to you. That and the what they signed with the Can Investment Act, and it's on their website. As you know, Wayne pointed out that they talked about their commitment. They said five years, no reduction of unionized workers. I mean, it was on their website. It's on the the Government of Canada website. And like, I'm actually pretty happy that Prime Minister Carney and Minister Joly have acted swiftly. They sent a letter to Stelco demanding an explanation and telling them to explain the reason for this layoff, for this situation. And we hope they keep them accountable and they use all the powers that are available. And if divestment is one of them, so be it. I think Canada's got to make an example that you can't let foreign corporations come into our country, not abide by their agreements. You know, they used to say can is open for business. But, you know, there's rules that's going to benefit Canadians. So those rules should be enforced.
### 麦克唐纳委员会的遗产与贸易困局 **主持人**: 韦恩，罗恩刚才提到了联邦政府本周已经正式向斯泰尔科发函，勒令其必须在五天内提交一份如何在加拿大保留工作岗位的切实方案。与此同时，渥太华方面还威胁要对拥有斯泰尔科的母公司克利夫兰-克利夫斯采取法律诉讼行动，指控其涉嫌违背当初的收购协议条款。罗恩显然对联邦政府目前的雷厉风行感到欣慰。韦恩，请帮我们分析一下，你如何看待卡尼总理迄今为止采取的这些举措？
Original English **Host**: Wayne. Ron just mentioned, you know, the federal government wrote Stelco this week, demanding that they provide a plan within five days of how it will maintain jobs in Canada. They are also threatening legal action against Cleveland Cliffs, the company that owns Stelco, for allegedly violating the terms of this sale agreement. It seems like, Ron, you're happy with what the federal government is doing. Wayne, help me understand. What do you make of Prime Minister Mark Carney's actions so far?
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 是的，我认为他们目前的表态是完全正确的，讲的都是该讲的话。然而核心问题在于，他们是否真正具备坚决贯彻到底的政治勇气。我认为政府能否动真格地将这些反制措施执行到底，是极其致命和关键的。摆在桌面上的政策选项其实有很多，强制撤资毫无疑问是其中之一。 但更深层次地讲，我认为此时此刻或许正是加拿大历史上的一个关键十字路口，我们必须彻底反思我们当初究竟是如何一步步陷入如今这副烂摊子的。从某种程度上说，我们之所以沦落到今天这个地步，根源就在于1980年代中期的那个皇家调查委员会——也就是著名的**麦克唐纳委员会**（**Macdonald Commission**）。正是它的报告为我们指引并铺平了走向美加自由贸易的道路。我认为现在或许正是时候开始严肃拷问：当年那条道路真的算是一着明智之棋吗？也许我们需要发起另一场皇家调查委员会，来重新探寻我们的下一条出路何在，我们究竟要往哪里走？因为在目前看来，原先建立的那套贸易框架体系显然已经彻底搁浅、名存实亡了。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: Yeah, I think I think they're saying the right things. You know, the question is whether they have, you know, the the, the courage to to follow through on this. And I think it's really quite critical that they that they actually do follow through. And I think there are a number of options that are that are on the table. And divestment is certainly one option. But I think also, you know, maybe we're now we're at a point of time in, in our in Canadian history when we need to look back on how we got into this mess. And partly we got into this mess because of a royal commission back in the mid 1980s, the McDonald Commission, which pointed us down to the free trade path. And I think maybe now it's time to start asking questions about whether that was a wise move and maybe strike another royal commission to figure out what is our next path. Where are we going? Because it seems to be that deal is is dead in the water.
**主持人**: 罗恩，我想再深入谈谈省政府层面的动作。安大略省政府宣布，他们将出资刚刚超过20.3万加元，用于支持受汉密尔顿钢铁制造业动荡影响的75名工人和求职者，这笔资金也包含了来自联邦政府的配套款项。对于你们的工会成员来说，这笔资金真的够用吗？
Original English **Host**: Ron, I want to talk a little bit more about the provincial government and what they're doing as well. The Ontario government announced that they're investing just over $203,000 to support 75 workers and job seekers affected by disruptions in Hamilton's steel manufacturing sectors. It also includes money from the federal government as well. Is that actually enough for your members?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 根本不够！这纯粹是亡羊补牢、马后炮！我们根本不希望这些裁员发生，我们希望看到的是工友们能够堂堂正正地重返各自的工作岗位。我们的绝大多数工会成员在自己的岗位上干得很舒心，这些工作能为家庭提供体面的收入；他们热爱生活在这座城市与社区，压根就不想被迫背井离乡去外地重新安置。 我的意思是，也许个别成员确实能从这种转岗培训中获益，学到一门新技能，这对他们个人来说固然是好事。但对绝大多数人而言，大家真正渴望的是复工，是一年12个月都能安安心心上班。我们绝不接受把自己的厂区降级为一个只在产能过剩时才被临时调用的边缘卫星工厂。我们的工人要的是实实在在的全职工作！
Original English **Ron Wells**: No, I mean, that's like closing the barn doors after the horses have gotten out. We don't want these layoffs to take place. We want our members to go back to their jobs. A lot of our members, they're happy at their jobs that provide a good income. They like living in this community. They don't want to have to relocate. I mean, if some members, they might benefit from this retraining. They'll get a skill and that'd be great for them. But the vast majority, they want to return to work, they want to work 12 months a year, and they we don't want to be a satellite plant just for over full capabilities. Our members want full time jobs.
### 外资所有权与主权资本的反思 **主持人**: 韦恩，当前这起案件我认为抛出了一个关乎“加拿大关键资产被外资控股”的宏大议题。这是否关系到了公共利益？我们是否应当就此展开一场更为广泛的全民大讨论？
Original English **Host**: Wayne, this current case, I think, highlights a big question about foreign ownership of Canadian assets. Is this a public interest? Is this something that we should be having a broader conversation of?
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 我认为绝对有必要。大家必须睁开眼看看周围的世界，现在的世界格局已经彻底改变了。诚然，卡尼总理一直在极力鼓励吸纳更多外国投资。不可否认，加拿大确实极度渴望资本，我们眼下正筹划推进一系列宏大的国家基础设施建设项目，而其中相当一部分资金必然需要从外部引入。 但与此同时，人们必须牢记一个基本事实：今天的加拿大作为一个国家，本身是一个资本净输出国。我们在世界其他地方的海外投资总额，实际上远远超过了世界其他地方对加拿大的投资。与1980年代相比，这是一个天翻地覆的根本性转变。这就意味着，我们自己本身就是其他国家极其重量级的大投资人。 正因如此，我们必须开始对整套传统机制提出严肃质询——即各国在自身国内经济中彼此深度依赖他国资本与跨国投资的这套全球化模式。因为从眼下的现实来看，这种经济运行逻辑所派生出的种种恶果，正在无情地榨干和牺牲广大普通工人的切身利益。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: I think absolutely. I you know, I think we have to, you know, look around and see, you know, the world, the world has changed. And certainly, you know, Prime Minister Carney has encouraged a lot more foreign investment. Look, we, we, we Canada desperately needs capital. We're we're looking to do a number of big infrastructure projects. And some of that capital will come externally. But also one has to keep in mind that Canada, as a as a country, is a net exporter of capital. We actually invest more in the rest of the world than the rest of the world invests in us. I mean, that's a big change since the 1980s. And so we are ourselves are also big investors in in other countries. And so I think we need to start asking questions about this whole arrangement by which countries rely on other countries for capital and investment in their domestic economies, because it certainly seems at the present moment, a lot of workers are getting squeezed as a result of some of the implications of this approach to running an economy.
**主持人**: 罗恩，你对此有什么想法？
Original English **Host**: Ron, your thoughts.
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 谈到钢铁，我认为任何一个成熟的发达国家，都必须拥有自主独立的本土钢铁冶炼制造能力。不管是国家大型基础设施工程、国防军工，还是铁路建设，我们的命脉绝不能依附于别国的供应施舍。加拿大拥有坚实的工业制造底蕴，我们必须竭尽全力去捍卫它。我坚信，我们绝不想沦为一个仅仅靠出卖矿山、石油和木材等天然原材料的资源型附庸国。 我们拥有大约4,000万人口。加拿大的普通公民需要开汽车，我们需要高品质钢铁，我们需要家用电器，而这些完全可以在加拿大本土由我们自己制造生产，我们在全球市场上完全具备竞争力！我不知道这是否完整回答了你的问题，但我始终坚信，加拿大必须做到工业自给自足，绝不能把生存命脉寄托在别国鼻息之下。
Original English **Ron Wells**: When it comes to steel? I think every country developed country needs its own steel making capability for infrastructure projects, for defence, for rail. We can't be dependent on other countries for those supplies. I think Canada, we have a strong manufacturing base. We have to do everything to protect it. I don't think we want to become a country of resources like mines, oil and lumber. We have 40 million people approximately, you know, our citizens are Canadians need cars, we need steel. We need appliances. We can build them and make them in Canada and we can compete. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think Canada has to be self-sufficient. We can't rely on other countries.
### 特朗普关税、政治筹码与暗度陈仓 **主持人**: 罗恩，你刚才提到觉得自己和工人们被夹在了中间，沦为了这场贸易战的牺牲品。美国总统唐纳德·特朗普此前宣布向爱荷华州的一座全新钢铁厂注资150亿美元。我想，听到这个消息你们心里一定很不是滋味吧？
Original English **Host**: Ron, earlier you had mentioned, you know, feeling like you were caught in the middle. You and the workers you represent are caught in the middle of this trade war here. US President Donald Trump announced an investment of $15 billion of new steel plant in Iowa. I imagine that doesn't feel too great.
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 确实非常难受。而且我们认为，这绝不仅仅是一个单纯的时间巧合。就在上周一，特朗普在白宫大张旗鼓地宣讲他在爱荷华州为钢铁厂注资150亿美元的大手笔。紧接着话锋一转，他便开始敲打加拿大，宣称“我们很快就会和加拿大敲定一项贸易协定，他们迟早会低头跑回来求和道歉”。 而几乎在同一时间，他在关税战政策上最铁杆的铁幕盟友之一——克利夫兰-克利夫斯的首席执行官洛伦索·冈萨尔维斯——直接拍板决定让500名加拿大钢铁工人卷铺盖走人！要明白，斯泰尔科是加拿大极具象征意义的标杆性旗舰企业，我们**联合钢铁工人工会第1005分会**（**USW Local 1005**）已经风雨同舟坚守了整整80年！这一裁员声明瞬间霸占了各大媒体的头版头条。 因此，我们坚信这绝非偶然。这背后一方面是为其关税政策摇旗呐喊，在即将到来的中期选举中为特朗普助选造势，以此证明所谓“高额关税确实生效了”；另一方面，就是赤裸裸地通过关厂施压，胁迫诱导加拿大政府不得不仓促重返谈判桌，被迫签署一份严重出卖全体加拿大人切身利益的不平等贸易协定。正是基于这一连串的事实，我们才深感自己完完全全被当成了这场肮脏政治博弈里的垫脚石和人质。
Original English **Ron Wells**: No. And we think it's more than a coincidence. So on Monday, Trump's in the last Monday, Trump's in the white House. And you know, talking about the $15 billion investment in the steel plant in Iowa. And then he pivots. And he starts talking about we're going to get a trade deal with Canada soon. They're going to come back and they're going to apologize. And at the same time one of his biggest supporters, especially about the tariffs cliffs, Cleveland-cliffs CEO Lorenzo Goncalves is you know, he is basically his decision that 500 Canadian steelworkers are getting laid off, which, you know, Stelco is an iconic company, USW Local 1005 has been around for 80 years. So it was front page news. So we think it's a bit more than a coincidence. You know, it's, you know, part of it's to help Trump in his midterms to show that his tariffs are working. The other part is I think is to entice or to pressure our government to go back and get a trade deal that will probably be not beneficial for the rest of the Canadians. So that's why we feel we're being you used as pawns in this situation.
**主持人**: 韦恩，你的研判呢？
Original English **Host**: Wayne, your take.
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 我完全赞同罗恩的剖析，他说得切中要害。这明显是一盘极其庞大的地缘政治博弈棋局的一部分。特朗普从来都毫不掩饰自己的野心，他公然宣称就是要抢走加拿大的就业机会——无论是汽车制造领域、钢铁冶炼产业，还是其他实体经济板块。眼下发生的这一幕，俨然就是朝那个既定方向迈出的又一步。 至于爱荷华州拟建的那座新钢厂，最终到底能不能落地投产我们还得拭目以待。毕竟目前仍处于前期纸面规划阶段。但是这种动作极其成问题，因为全球钢铁市场早就已经处在严重的产能过剩危机之中了。在这种大背景下再硬塞进一座巨型钢厂，只会让整个行业所面临的恶性竞争与内卷困局雪上加霜。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: No, I think George I think he's absolutely right. This is, you know, part of a much bigger play. And you know, Trump has made no has not disguised at all that he's after Canadian jobs. Whether they're in the auto or steel or other sectors. And this looks to be, you know, one of another move in that in that direction, you know, this new plant in Iowa, let's see if it comes to play or not. I mean, it's it's in the planning stages, but, you know, it's problematic because there's already a global glut of steel. And so adding another big plant is can only compound the problems that this sector is facing.
### 国有化构想与经济主权新路径 **主持人**: 罗恩，我想简要引述本周女王大学法学院副教授**尼古拉斯·兰普**（**Nicolas Lamp**）发表在《环球邮报》（Globe and Mail）上的一篇精辟评论。他写道：“如果加拿大政府认定钢铁行业具有战略重要性，认定工人遭到了那位公开支持特朗普的首席执行官的无情背叛，并且在更具同情心的管理层领导下会过得更好，那么政府完全可以对该公司实施**国有化**，并将管理大权重新交还给加拿大本土管理层——正如英国政府近期对**英国钢铁公司**（**British Steel**）所做的那样。”话说到这里，罗恩，眼下这会是一个千载难逢的契机吗？渥太华方面是否应该认真考虑将斯泰尔科国有化？
Original English **Host**: Ron, I want to read a quick comment from Nicholas Lamp, an associate professor at the Faculty of Law at Queen's University in the Globe and Mail. This week. It reads, if the government decides that the steel industry is of strategic importance, that the workers are being betrayed by their Trump supporting CEO and would fare better under more sympathetic management, it could nationalize the company and put Canadian management in charge. As the UK government has recently done with British Steel. With that being said, is this an opportunity right now? Ron? Should Ottawa consider nationalizing Stelco?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 我们工会内部其实早就一直在高呼同样的呼声了！这位教授的表述比我更有水平，但我百分之百举双手赞成他的观点。英国目前的国有化实践已经证明这是完全走得通的。 大家别忘了，在2017年到2024年被克利夫兰-克利夫斯收购之前，斯泰尔科一直作为一家独立的加拿大本土上市公司在稳健运营，在此期间赚取了数以十亿计的巨额利润！我们拥有非常稳固的细分利基市场，我们靠自己的力量活得很好，甚至在特朗普的第一任总统任期内，我们也完全挺过了当时严苛的惩罚性钢铝关税。 所以，这绝对是一个极具可操作性的方案。加拿大历史上和现实中从来不乏成功的国企范例，我们有皇冠公司（Crown corporation）的传统机制，比如早期的铁路、**加拿大邮政**（**Canada Post**）等等。因此，将具有战略意义的钢铁资产收归国有绝对是完全可行的方案！
Original English **Ron Wells**: We've been saying that ourselves, he said a lot better than I could. But yeah, I agree 100%. It's working in the UK right now. And when Stelco was a standalone company between 2017 and before Cliffs bodice and in 24 they made billions of dollars. We had a niche market. We survived. We survived Trump's tariffs in his first term. So I think it's a doable idea. There's other crown corporations, you know, CP rail. What else is there? There's other Crown Corp mail. You know Canada Post. So it's definitely doable.
**主持人**: 韦恩，你的看法呢？
Original English **Host**: Wayne.
**韦恩·莱夫丘克**: 是的，我认为这确实是决策层必须极其严肃审视并考虑的战略路线。这也恰好呼应了我前面表达的观点：我们必须刻不容缓地去积极探索所有可能的替代方案。 我们在1980年代末期所选择并全盘押注的那套路线——即完全倒向与美国进行深度自由贸易一体化的战略——在当下的残酷现实面前显然已经行不通了。我甚至高度怀疑那种旧日的自贸环境是否还能重新降临。将斯泰尔科国有化无疑是桌面上的一个极佳选项，但它显然也并非孤立的单一药方。 立足于我们当下所处的地缘政治风暴与全球剧变现实，摆在我们面前的是一个宏大得多的全局性命题：面向未来，加拿大究竟该如何重新组织与构建属于我们自己的国民经济体系？说实在的，回答这一历史之问，迫切需要深邃严谨的战略思考、广泛充分的全民探讨以及大刀阔斧的制度探索。
Original English **Wayne Lewchuk**: Yeah, I think it's actually something we need to be thinking about seriously. And this really comes back to my comments about we need to start exploring what are our alternative options. You know, the, the, the option, the strategy we adopted in the, in the, in the late 1980s to engage in free trade with the US, it does not seem to be working. I'm not sure it's coming back. Certainly nationalizing Stelco is one option, but it's not the only one. And so I think there's a much bigger picture, a much bigger question here about how do we Organize our economy going forward, given the world that we live in right now? And I think, to be frank, that's going to require some serious thought and discussion and exploration.
### 关税减免猫腻与复工前景 **主持人**: 罗恩，如果美加两国之间最终达成了某种形式的贸易协议，你是否抱有一丝希望，认为斯泰尔科有可能会把被裁掉的工友们重新召回工厂复岗？
Original English **Host**: Ron, do you have any hope that Stelco could recall its workers back if a trade agreement is reached between the US and Canada?
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 实际上，我坚信这次裁员本质上只是暂时性的，只是我们目前尚无法准确预判它会持续多久。显然，熬过去的时间越短越好。我认为跨国资本和资方的全盘阴谋，就是妄图通过关厂倒逼达成一项贸易协定，从而在表面上限制外国低价钢铁涌入加拿大市场。 但荒唐而又耐人寻味的是，眼下所有政客都在高调叫嚷着警惕来自土耳其、中国或是韩国的钢材输入加拿大，但事实上迄今为止加拿大最大的钢铁进口来源国正是美国本土，两者的规模根本不可同日而语！更为讽刺的是，当前加拿大政府对这些美国输入的钢铁竟然还保留着关税豁免减免政策（tariff remission）。这就直接导致美国本土的钢铁厂能够堂而皇之地侵蚀填补加拿大国内的订单需求，而这些订单本该是由我们斯泰尔科的汉密尔顿工人在本土工厂开足马力生产交付的！ 因此，面对如此反常的操作，我们所有工人都觉得这背后充满着猫腻和不可告人的猫腻操作。放任这种情况肆虐，显然是对加拿大国家根本利益的公然出卖！
Original English **Ron Wells**: I actually I believe this is a temporary layoff. I don't know the duration. Obviously, the shorter the better. I think the whole plan is for them to get a trade deal. That's going to put some blocks on foreign steel coming into Canada. But you know, it's funny that, you know, everyone's worried about steel from TURKIYE China. Korea coming into Canada, the largest exporter by far is the US. And right now there's remission on those tariffs. So they're able to sell fill Canadian orders that we could fill from Stelco into our markets. So you know we find that kind of, you know, a little suspicious. And it's obviously not in Canada's best interest.
**主持人**: 两位先生，非常感谢你们今天做客《The Rundown》并与我们深入分享真知灼见。罗恩·韦尔斯、韦恩·莱夫丘克，十分感谢两位的精辟解读。
Original English **Host**: Gentlemen, I want to thank you so much for joining us on The Rundown. Ron Wells, Wayne Lewchuk, thank you so much for your insights.
**罗恩·韦尔斯**: 非常荣幸，感谢你们的邀请。
Original English **Ron Wells**: My pleasure, thanks for having me.