--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-21' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbseBOEW9FY speaker: TVO Today tags: - separatism - referendum - foreign-interference - constitutional-reform - democratic-backsliding title: 阿尔伯塔选择留在加拿大：公投结果背后的政治博弈、外国干预与分裂危机 summary: 在历经数月的激烈辩论与竞选后，阿尔伯塔省公投以近76%的绝对优势选择留在加拿大联邦。本期节目深入分析压倒性公投结果背后的深层民意、联邦与省际关系的未来走向，以及国家安全专家指出的分离主义运动背后的地缘政治干预与民主体制隐患。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: geopolitics area: geopolitics project: [] people: - Danielle Smith - Mark Carney - Patrick Lennox companies_orgs: - United Conservative Party products_models: [] media_books: - 'On Treason: Alberta Separatism, Foreign Interference and Canada''s Survival in a Revolutionary Age' status: evergreen --- ### 公投尘埃落定：阿尔伯塔压倒性选择留下 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 历经数月的激烈竞选和数百万资金的投入，这个国家面临的最重大问题之一终于有了答案。**阿尔伯塔省**选民以压倒性多数投票决定留在加拿大。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: After months of passionate campaigning and millions of dollars, we finally have an answer to one of the biggest questions this country has faced. Albertans have voted overwhelmingly to stay in Canada.
**托马斯·卢卡祖克**: 这不仅向**丹妮尔·史密斯**（Danielle Smith）省长传递了一个极其明确的信号——我们不需要再搞一场公投，同时也向加拿大其他地区传递了一个信号：阿尔伯塔绝不会成为加拿大联邦中的薄弱环节。
Original English **Thomas Lukaszuk**: It not only sends a very clear message to Premier Danielle Smith that we do not need another referendum, but it also sends a message to the rest of Canada that Alberta will not be the weak link in Confederation.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 那是“永远的加拿大运动”（**Forever Canadian Movement**）领袖**托马斯·卢卡祖克**（Thomas Lukaszuk）昨晚深夜对初步开票结果作出的回应。那么，分离主义运动接下来会何去何从？这一切对阿尔伯塔省乃至加拿大又意味着什么？我们将深入剖析投票结果以及接下来的局势演变。 我是杰扬·杰加纳森（Jeyan Jeganathan），这里是《**The Rundown**》。 总理**马克·卡尼**（Mark Carney）昨晚对初步结果表示欢迎，称“阿尔伯塔人选择了加拿大”。那么**丹妮尔·史密斯**省长呢？她发表了一份简短声明，表示自己“非常高兴”，阿尔伯塔人投票支持“在一个统一的加拿大中建立一个更加强大的阿尔伯塔”。她还宣布将在周二晚间发表电视直播讲话——那将在我们本期节目录制完成之后。 那么当地的社会氛围究竟如何？这个省份未来该如何前行？**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**（Martha Hall Findlay）、**珍·格森**（Jen Gerson），非常高兴再次邀请两位来到《The Rundown》。我知道两位昨晚都度过了一个非常忙碌的夜晚，非常感谢你们上线接受采访。 我想向我们的观众和听众做一个说明：我们这期圆桌讨论录制于东部时间10月20日周二上午11点30分。在录制本期节目时，近76%参与投票的阿尔伯塔人选择了留在加拿大。珍，我想听听你对整个过程的看法。请帮我们理解一下，阿尔伯塔究竟在向渥太华传递怎样的信号？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: That was Thomas Lukaszuk, leader of the Forever Canadian Movement, responding to the early returns late last night. So what happens to the separatist movement now, and what does this all mean for the future of Alberta? In Canada? We dig into the results and what happens next. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan, and this is The Rundown. Prime Minister Mark Carney welcomed the early results last night, saying, quote, Albertans chose Canada. What about Premier Danielle Smith? Well, she issued a brief statement saying she was, quote, very pleased and that Albertans have voted for a stronger Alberta in a united Canada. She also announced she'd be giving a live address on Tuesday night. After we've recorded this episode. So what is the mood like on the ground there and how does this province move forward? Martha Hall Findlay, Jen Gerson, great to have you both back on The Rundown. I know you've had very busy evenings, so really appreciate you guys joining us on the line for our viewers and our listeners, I do want to have a mention, a disclaimer we are recording this panel at 11:30 a.m. Eastern Time on Tuesday, October 20th, right now. The time of this recording, nearly 76% of all Britons who voted voted to stay. Jen, I want to get your take throughout this whole process. Help us understand what message is Alberta sending to Ottawa?
**珍·格森**: 听着，我认为投票结果高度如实地反映了阿尔伯塔人对于分裂主义议题的真实感受，我甚至可以说，这同样反映了他们对当前处于紧张状态的美加贸易关系的真实感受。 我确实认为，大体而言，阿尔伯塔人对过去十年左右联邦政府的表现确实感到非常愤怒。我也确实认为，修复双方关系的工作仍需持续推进。然而，纵观这整场公投，我认为它坦率地讲就是一场相当幼稚的政治噱头。它不仅让许多阿尔伯塔人暴露在外国干预乃至更恶劣威胁的风险之下，换来的实质收益却微乎其微。而且我不认为这在阿尔伯塔省属于少数派的观点。
Original English **Jen Gerson**: Look, I think that the results are highly representative of how Albertans are actually feeling about issues around separatism, and even I would go so far to say issues around the trade relationship with the United States and that that fraught relationship that's happening right now. I do think that Albertans are, by and large, genuinely quite angry about the last year, last ten years or so of federal government. And I do think continued repair work needs to happen. However, I walk away from all of this thinking that the entire referendum was a frankly pretty juvenile political stunt that put a lot of Albertans at risk of foreign interference and worse, for probably not very much gain. And I don't think that that is a minority opinion in Alberta.
### 输赢之外：家庭分歧与前路探索 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Martha.
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 我不一定会反对这个说法，但现实就是事情已经发生了，对吧？我们最终还是不得不去面对它。无论出于何种缘由，有两点始终让我感触颇深。 现在外界充斥着大量关于“胜者与败者”的讨论，对吧？而我根本不赞同这种视角。在我所在的这个省份，一方面有大量民众对设立这个公投议题本身感到担忧，他们希望明确表达继续作为加拿大一部分的意愿；另一方面，也有一大批阿尔伯塔人提出了截然不同的诉求。这绝不是非输即赢的问题。 显而易见的事实是：我们拥有一个非常出色的国家，但承认它仍是一个“正在建设中的工程”并不可耻。为了真正实现这种进步，我们究竟需要做些什么？这一路走来十分艰难。很多家庭甚至在厨房餐桌上因政见分歧而争吵不休。 我想说的另一件事关乎其余九个问题。是的，目前在关于脱离与否的问题上，赞成留下的比例徘徊在76%左右。然而截至目前，在其余九个问题中，除了一个之外，支持赞成（Yes）的比例均大幅超过50%。对吧？因此，我们在移民议题、宪法议题上还有大量工作要做。虽然这些表决结果都不具备法律约束力，但对阿尔伯塔省政府而言，它们无疑具有强烈的施政导向意义。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: I won't I won't necessarily disagree, but it's what we have, right? We ended up having to do it. And for for whatever reason, I was struck by two things and still am. There's a lot of talk about the winners and the losers, right? And I just I don't subscribe to that at all. These are people in, in my province who are, are, are on the one hand, concerned about the whole fact of, of having this question. And they wanted to express they wanted to stay part of Canada. And then a whole lot of Albertans who said something different. It's not a case of winning and losing. It's a case of it's pretty clear we have a fantastic country, but there's no shame in saying it's still a work in progress. And what do we need to do to actually achieve that progress? This has been tough. Families have had struggles at the kitchen table with with disagreements. The other thing I will say is the other nine questions. So yes, we're hovering around 76% on the on the no versus the. On, on, on the leave question. The other nine questions as of right now, all but one of them have significantly more than 50% voting. Yes. Right. So we have a lot of work to do on the immigration questions, the constitutional questions. None of them are binding, but they're definitely directional for the government of Alberta.
### 卡尼的动员效应与民意基本盘 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 我们稍后会深入探讨这九个问题以及下一步的走向。不过，我想先播放一段卡尼及其办公室在10月12日感恩节、也就是投票前夕发布的信息片段。让我们来看一下。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Well, pick up on those questions shortly. And where we go from here. But I actually want to play a snippet of a message Carney and his office released on Thanksgiving on October 12th leading up to the vote. Let's have a look at that.
**马克·卡尼**: 阿尔伯塔人将有机会就自己的未来做出重大决定。我在阿尔伯塔长大。这些日子我经常回家乡，因为我们正在阿尔伯塔重新兴建大型工程。事实是，如果我们陷入分裂，这一切都无法实现。
Original English **Mark Carney**: Albertans will have the opportunity to make an important decision about their future. I grew up in Alberta. I'm back home a lot these days because we are building big things again in Alberta. Truth is, we can't achieve any of this if we're divided.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 正如卡尼总理所言，他是在阿尔伯塔长大的。根据**益普索**（IPSOS）民调，他是目前该省最受欢迎的政治人物。珍，卡尼总理支持加拿大的表态对阿尔伯塔人究竟产生了怎样的影响（如果有的话）？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: All right. As Prime Minister Carney explains, he grew up in Alberta and according to IPSOS, is the most favourable politician in the province right now. Jen, what effect, if any, did Prime Minister Kearney's pro-canadian message have on Albertans?
**珍·格森**: 我认为，他很可能动员了更多人走进投票站。这次投票的投票率高得令人欣慰，而这恰恰始终是决定此次公投结果的关键所在。大致维持在75%支持留下、26%主张脱离的比例向我证明了一点：在过去长达18个月左右的竞选过程中，没有任何一部分是一场成功的说服行动。 支持分离主义的基本盘多年来、很多很多年以来，一直都徘徊在这个水平。我们始终清楚，这绝非关乎说服人们究竟是留在加拿大还是脱离联邦；这本质上是一场选民动员的较量——究竟谁会在选举日当天现身，谁会选择邮寄选票，谁会参与提前投票。这次提前投票和邮寄选票的比例异乎寻常地高。我认为单是提前投票和邮寄选票就占据了登记选民的40%左右。这是一个极其积极的信号。我们看到了非常高的整体投票率。因此正如预期那样，在高投票率的推动下，结果全面反映了阿尔伯塔大众在此议题上的真实心声。
Original English **Jen Gerson**: I think that it's very possible that he mobilised more people to the polls. We have a pleasantly high voter turnout rate, which is what was always going to determine this vote, 75, roughly to 26% stay versus leave demonstrates to me that no part of this campaign over the last 18 or so months has been a persuasion campaign. That's about where separatism support has been for years, many, many, many years. We always knew that this was not about persuading people to stay in Canada or leave. This was about getting people to the polls who was going to show up on Election day, who was going to get a mail in ballot, and who was going to get advance polls, the advance polls and the advance mail in ballots were exceptionally high. I think 40% of registered voters voted in just the advance polls, in the mail, in ballots. So that was a really, really good sign. And we're seeing very high turnout. So as expected, with high voter turnout, the results are broadly reflective of how Albertans feel about the question.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎，请帮我们分析一下，这里面涉及到多重复杂因素。人们既关注南边邻居（美国）的动向，同时也看国内格局。卡尼在向阿尔伯塔人传达这一信息方面到底扮演了多大角色？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Martha, help us understand there are a number of factors going on here. You know, you look to your neighbours, to the south as well, but help us understand how much of a role did Carney have in sort of getting his message delivered to Albertans?
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 是的，我完全同意杰扬的看法。卡尼扮演的最大角色，其实是在投票临近尾声时站出来，纯粹鼓励大家出去投票。 事实上，我认为他非常明智地没有在初期深度介入，也没有过早施加过强的政治影响力。之所以这样做，是因为大家普遍认为，在1995年魁北克独立公投期间，大量来自魁北克省外的人士涌入集会，各地民众坐满大巴前往现场。虽然省外民众自我感觉非常良好，但魁北克人却未必买账。甚至有一种观点认为，尽管那次外部动员出于善意，但结果反而适得其反，导致当时的票数差距比原本可能出现的还要胶着——这恰恰是因为外界的好心好意被视为了越界干预：“这是魁北克人自己的家务事”。 我认为很多阿尔伯塔人本也会产生完全相同的情绪。因此，我认为卡尼总理在拿捏这一分寸上非常克制、走得很谨慎。他的核心发力点确实在于推高投票率。 超级有趣的是，民调数据显示，正如珍所言，这种民意分野多年来一直相当稳定，对吧？这是它首次被推到如此公开的大众舞台。但是在耗费了如此巨大的人力物力、各路极具个人魅力的政治人物全力鼓噪、铺天盖地的社交媒体攻势、甚至可能伴随着潜在外国干预的情况下，我们最终得出的结论依然与我们过去多年所处的原点完全一致。我认为这一点本身就必须成为整个事件不可忽视的核心事实。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: Yeah, I agree completely with Jeyan. The biggest role he played was in coming out near the end to just encourage people to get out to vote. He he actually, I think appropriately didn't weigh in early. He didn't weigh in strongly early. I think because there's a view that in Quebec, in the 95 referendum, there was an awful lot of outside of Quebec, you know, people going to the rallies, people from different parts of the country going in buses, and people felt really good about that, but not necessarily Quebecers. And there's a view that, in fact, that effort as as well-intentioned as it might have been, might have backfired, and that the vote might have even been closer than it otherwise would. And just in the sense of well intentioned. But, you know, this is Quebec's business. I think an awful lot of Albertans would have felt the same. And so I think Prime Minister Carney managed that line. I think he, he he trod carefully with it. And it really was an effort to get out the vote. It is super interesting that the polling shows that, as Jen said, this split is is has been pretty consistent for years. Right? This is the first time it's become so public. But after all of the effort, all of the charismatic individuals pushing this, all of the social media, potentially all of the foreign interference has gone in, gone into this. And we're at the same place that we were. And have been for years, I think is, is, is, has to be actually part of the story.
### 抗议之声与联合保守党的内部分裂 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 珍，关于脱离联邦的第十个问题占据了所有的舆论版面。关于阿尔伯塔人如何看待这个问题，你能告诉我们些什么？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Jen, the 10th question on separation is the one taking up all of the airspace. What can you tell us about how Albertans perceive this question?
**珍·格森**: 这是一个掷地有声的结果，意味着对那个脱离问题的明确拒绝。 我甚至要指出，在投票选择第二选项、主张最终脱离该省的26%人口中，民意调查显示，这些人也并非始终如一地支持独立。民调清晰表明，在那部分选民中，只有大约三分之一的人是真正严肃对待独立议题的；其余的人只是试图借此向执政当局传递不满的信号。所以这本质上是一种**抗议票**（protest vote）。 因此，即便是那些把票投给“脱离加拿大”的人群中，真正支持离开加拿大的也只是少数派。对吧？所以，脱离联邦从来不是主流立场。阿尔伯塔省从来没有任何严肃的多数民意在推动这场公投。**联合保守党**（United Conservative Party, **UCP**）政府在选举中根本没有获得举行此次公投的民主授权。这一直是阿尔伯塔省一小撮人的执念，但这批人在组织层面上变得极具执行力，以至于有能力接管了一个原本主流且公开支持联邦主义的政党。
Original English **Jen Gerson**: This is a resounding result. That is a rejection of that question. I would even say of the 26% of people who, or 26% of the population that voted to offer option two to eventually leave the province. You know, polling shows that those people aren't consistently pro succession either. You know, the polling shows that about a third of those people are actually serious about independence. The rest of those people are trying to send a message. So it's a form of a protest vote. So the support for leaving Canada is a minority, even among even among people who vote for leaving Canada. Right. So this is never been this has never been a majority position. There has never been a serious majority of Albertans who are pushing for this referendum. The UCP government did not win a democratic mandate to hold this referendum. This has always been the bugbear of a fairly small group of people in Alberta who became organisationally competent and capable of taking over a mainstream and explicitly federalist party.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎，请谈谈你的看法。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Martha, I'll get you to weigh in there.
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 我完全赞同。我认为当下的核心问题有两个。 第一，现状仍然绝非完美。阿尔伯塔依然有相当数量的民众感到非常沮丧。我敢保证，即便那些投票支持留在加拿大的人群中，仍有很多人对省政府与联邦政府之间的关系深感不满——留在加拿大并不意味着现状十全十美。我确实认为还有大量工作要做。坦白说，我们许多人都认为艰巨的工作今天才真正拉开序幕，但至少我们现在有了前行的动力，能够底气十足地说：我们拥有通过协作来切实解决其中部分问题的民意授权。 然而另一大问题是，联合保守党接下来将面临怎样的命运？毫无疑问，分离主义运动的一部分势力在党内渗透极深。这部分原因是新冠时期的遗留产物——反疫苗群体、**自由卡车车队**（Freedom Convoy）抗议者与分离主义者之间存在着极其巨大的重叠。这种对联合保守党的渗透是毋庸置疑的。联合保守党在任何层面上都已经谈不上“团结”（United）了。 他们将在11月举行年度股东大会（AGM）。至少已经有一个选区协会公开要求举行党领袖信任投票。在我看来，届时发生的一切都将极具看点，无论是对该党派本身，还是对省长而言都是如此。随后，全省民众不得不直面一些非常严肃的问题：阿尔伯塔人究竟是否觉得自己真正在省政府中得到了代表？我怀疑我们将看到重大的政治变革。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: Well, I think I agree completely. And I think the big issue now, there are two big issues. One is it still hasn't been perfect. There's still a fair number of people in Alberta who are pretty upset. And I can guarantee there are a lot of people still pretty upset with the relationship between the province and the and the and the federal government, who still voted to stay as part of Canada, doesn't mean the status quo is is, is is perfect. And I do think there's a lot of work to do. And frankly, a lot of us feel that the hard work starts today, but we at least have wind in our sails to be able to say there is a mandate to work collaboratively to, to actually fix some of those problems. The other thing, though, is what happens to the UCP. There's no question that the separatist movement, some of these. And it's and it's part of it's left over from Covid. There's an awful lot of overlap from the anti-vaccine people, the trucker convoy people, the separatists. There's no question of the infiltration into the UCP. The United Conservative Party is not united by any stretch of the imagination. And they're having an AGM in November. At least one riding association has called for there to be a leadership vote. To me, what happens then will be fascinating, both for the party and for the Premier, frankly. And then the province is going to have to have some very serious questions about how do Albertans feel that they are represented in their provincial government. And I suspect we'll see changes.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎，快速跟进一下珍刚刚谈到的内容：这次公投结果究竟代表了一场货真价实的分离主义运动，还是一次抗议性投票？这是否只是一种表明省内部分民众对当前联邦政府极度不满的表态？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Martha, quickly on sort of what Jen was talking about, do the referendum results represent a true separatist movement, or is this a protest vote? Was this a message that, you know, things within within the province? There are some people who are just unhappy with the federal government right now.
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 百分之百是这样。我们刚才也谈到，即便是那部分少数派里，真正的铁杆分离主义者也是少数中的少数。从某种意义上说，这反而是个更好的消息——因为即便有23%到26%的人投了赞成票，他们当中的绝大部分并非真的想要分离。 请记住，这是一场为了决定是否举行公投而举行的公投（a referendum to have a referendum），对吧？因此许多人觉得，投下赞成票来向联邦“传递警告信号”并没有任何实际的负面代价。当然，你可能会问：大家到底想把信号传递给谁？毕竟贾斯汀·特鲁多已经卸任了。但不论如何，尽管从大局来看，压倒性留在加拿大的结果是对国家认同的有力支持，但那种抗议票的存在是不争的事实。 民众的焦虑是真实的，我们面临着许多亟待解决的正当体制问题。一个最典型的例子是：几乎历届联邦大选的胜负都直接由安大略省、魁北克省和大西洋省份的绝对选票数量所决定。在阿尔伯塔或卑诗省（BC）的选票被清点完毕之前，联邦大选通常就已经大局已定了。这是可以通过改革来修复的。我们可以探讨选举制度改革，但这极其直观地表明，西部地区的民众虽然身处民主体制，却强烈感到自己未能在国家层面上获得充分代表。 参议院的问题同样如此，对吧？阿尔伯塔在**加拿大参议院**仅拥有四个席位。这根本无法反映阿尔伯塔现今的人口与经济体量。因此，我们完全可以在这些现实问题上寻求制度改进。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: But I 100%. I think we you know, we just talked about this as a a minority of the minority are hard-core separatists, which is even better news in the sense that if if you had 23% vote in. Yes. Knowing so much of that was not really separation. Because remember, this was a referendum to have a referendum, right? So a lot of people felt that there was no real downside to, to sending a message, sending a message. Of course, you sort of ask who to whom you think you're sending the message because Justin Trudeau's gone. But in any case, I do think though, as as powerful as this may feel as a support for the country in the grand scheme of things, there is that that protest vote was there. People are concerned there are legitimate things we need to do. A perfect example is every general, pretty much every general election is decided by the sheer number of votes in Ontario and Quebec. In Atlantic Canada, every pretty much every general election is, is, is decided before Alberta votes or BC votes are counted. That can be fixed. We can talk about electoral reform, but it's pretty obvious that that means that people out here, I mean, we have a democracy, but we don't particularly feel represented. And and the same with the Senate. Right. We Alberta only has four seats in the Senate. That's not a representative of where Alberta is now. So we can fix some of those things.
### 九项附属议题：移民管理与修宪困局 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 珍，玛莎提到了其余九个公投问题，她也谈到了参议院席位。参议院席位改革正是其中之一。让我们深入探讨一下：我们能从这些结果中看出什么？正如我们所讨论的，在第1到第9个问题上出现了大量的“赞成”票。我们是否需要就这些议题展开更深入的对话？该省是否即将面临一些艰难的博弈？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Well, Jen, Martha had mentioned those nine other questions. She brings up the Senate as well. Of course, one of the questions there. Let's dig into those a little bit. What can we look at from those results? You know, as we talk about those were a lot of yeses from 1 to 9 there. Is there a conversation that needs to be had there? Is there going to be some difficult times for the. Province and no.
**珍·格森**: 是的，也不是。坦率地说，在这一点上我与玛莎意见不一致。 我认为其中很多问题的措辞极其糟糕。当选民的注意力从那十个问题的核心剥离出来时，你就会发现实际投票参与度出现了急剧下降。而且坦白讲，丹妮尔·史密斯省长本人此前就已经公开表示过：无论她是否遵从这些投票的结果，其实都无所谓。 因此，在这九个问题中，几乎没有任何政策是丹妮尔·史密斯在本次公投前没有获得民主授权去推进的；她之所以选择就这些议题举行公投，纯粹是在正式宣布举行独立公投之前，向党内分离主义基本盘抛出的一块政治安抚骨头。所以，这完全是对省内政党政治的一种内部维稳手段。 现在，我认同玛莎的一点是：我们确实应当始终努力让这个国家变得更好、更公平，这种推进改善的改革使命应当时刻存在。我认为在探讨移民问题时，社会上对于赋予各省更多移民控制权确实存在广泛呼声，尤其是当各省在承担着支撑这些移民所需的大部分住房、医疗保健和社会福利服务时更是如此。因此，我认为在移民领域，阿尔伯塔与其他省份之间很可能存在着相当广泛的对话空间。 但坦白说，我认为在2026年的当下，全加拿大根本没有任何启动**宪法改革**（constitutional reform）的政治意愿。是的，我知道阿尔伯塔的许多保守派长期以来一直在大谈特谈参议院改革。但在我看来，参议院改革之于保守派，就如同选举制度改革之于进步派一样——它是一个极度小众且边缘的议题，在全社会几乎没有任何主流民意支持为了它去大动干戈修改宪法。 老实说，相比于众议院，我个人甚至更青睐参议院。我认为参议院在各专门委员会层面的专业表现往往远好于众议院。但与此同时，我并不认为如果阿尔伯塔在参议院增加几个席位，就能让本省的政策得到更多的推进，或是让联邦政府做出更多有利于阿尔伯塔的决策。
Original English **Jen Gerson**: Yeah. Yes and no. To be honest with you, I disagree with Martha on this one. I think a lot of those questions were exceptionally poorly worded questions. You saw voter turnout drop dramatically when we moved away from the ten questions. And bluntly, we've already had Danielle Smith herself say that, you know, whether or not she would respect the outcome of those votes was irrelevant. So there's almost nothing in those. There's nothing in those questions or nothing. No policy in any of those questions that Danielle Smith did not have the Democratic mandate to pursue prior to this referendum and her choice to hold a referendum on those questions was really just a sop to her separatist base before it was announced that she was going to hold the referendum on succession. So there was this this was this is an it was management of of internal domestic politics. Now, where I agree with Martha is that I'll say this. We should always be working to make the country better, more fair, like, like we should just there should always be a mandate to do that. I think when we're talking about immigration, for example, there is a genuine appetite for giving provinces more control over immigration coming into their systems, particularly if there if provinces are overwhelmingly providing the housing, the health care and the social services that is going to support those, those immigrants. So like, I actually think there's probably quite a lot of openness to conversations about that with other provinces, but bluntly, I think there's zero appetite for constitutional reform in 2026. Yeah. But I know a lot of conservatives in Alberta talk about have been talking about Senate reform for a really long time. In my opinion, Senate reform is to conservatives what electoral reform is to progressives. It's a very, very niche issue that has almost no popular support for reforming. So I like the Senate better than I like the House of Commons, to be honest with you. I think that the Senate often does a much better job at committee level than the House of Commons does. But at the same time, I don't think that Alberta would be getting more of its policies forwarded or more or more of its of its preferred decisions made if it had more bodies in the Senate.
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 我并不认为那是值得耗费政治资本的地方，对吧。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: I don't think that that is I don't think that that is where political capital needs to be spent right.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎，我大概还有30秒的时间，想请你对这一点作个回应。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Now, Martha, I've got about 30s or so. So I got to get you in there in response to that.
**玛莎·霍尔·芬德利**: 我同意参议院议题是一个转移焦点的“红鲱鱼”（red herring）。这个问题已经争论了几十年。而眼下，正因为联邦众议院的运作极其低效——各专门委员会的工作水准简直令人不敢恭维——谢天谢地我们现在还有一个参议院，能够真正扮演“清醒的二次审议”（sober second thought）角色。因此我并不反对珍的这一看法。 我只是认为，有许多不需要触动宪法改革的事情是可以去做的。在代表权和话语权方面，有大量问题可以得到解决，或者至少能取得长足的改善。行至当下，省长与总理迎来了一个重要契机，可以坐下来明确表态：让我们在其中一些关键领域展开更具建设性的合作。
Original English **Martha Hall Findlay**: I agree that the Senate the Senate is a red herring question. It's been around for decades, and right now, because the House is so incompetent, I mean, the committee work is it's become just simply incompetent. Thank heavens we have a Senate right now that is actually exercising sober. Second thought. So I don't disagree with that. I just think there's a lot that can happen that's not requiring constitutional reform. That can be solved, or at least a lot a long way to improving things in terms of representation and voice that at this point now, the Premier and the Prime Minister have an opportunity to say, let's collaborate more on some of these.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 玛莎、珍，讨论就先进行到这里。很显然，对话并不会随着昨天的投票而划上句号，我们未来还会持续关注这一议题。非常感谢两位抽出时间接受我们的采访。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Martha. Jen, we're going to leave it there. Clearly, this conversation does not end with yesterday's vote, so we will carry on this conversation. Really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us.
**珍·格森**: 谢谢邀请。
Original English **Jen Gerson**: Thanks for having me.
### 国家安全视角：分离主义是叛国行为吗？ **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 公投结果对加拿大、首先是对阿尔伯塔的重要性不言而喻。但一位国家安全专家指出，其产生的深远后果将远超加拿大国境，并且有外国势力在暗中助长阿尔伯塔的分离主义运动。 **帕特里克·伦诺克斯**（Patrick Lennox），非常荣幸邀请你做客《The Rundown》。你最近怎么样？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: The referendum results are obviously important to Canada and to Alberta first and foremost. But one security expert says the consequences will travel far beyond this country and that there are foreign interests who have been fuelling the separatist movement. Patrick Lennox, great to have you on The Rundown. How are you doing?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 很好。非常感谢你的邀请。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Great. Thanks for having me.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 客气了。我想先从你的新书摘录展开讨论。你的著作名为《**论叛国：阿尔伯塔分离主义、外国干预与革命时代的加拿大生存**》（*On Treason: Alberta Separatism, Foreign Interference and Canada's Survival in a Revolutionary Age*）。 书中有这样一段话：“加拿大的生存，维系于其在追求国家利益和国家安全过程中保持团结与自主决定的能力。一场公然违背加拿大整体社会更广泛利益的分裂主义运动，是否可以被视为具有**叛国性质**（treasonous）？叛国这一指控一旦提出，往往带有极其强烈的道德否定色彩；然而使用这个词，也折射出一个社会对自身稳定性及其风俗、规范、价值观和集体认同之脆弱性的极度焦虑与不安全感。” 你是如何一步步将阿尔伯塔的分离主义运动定性为“具有叛国性质”的？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Of course, I actually want to start a conversation with an excerpt from your book. Your book on treason, Alberta Separatism, Foreign Interference and Canada's Survival in a Revolutionary Age. Now, the passage reads, Canada's survival hinges on its ability to remain united and self-determining in the pursuit of its national interest and security. Can a separatist movement working against these broader interests of the Canadian polity be considered treasonous? Treason, when alleged, carries extreme negative moral valence? But, to use the word, reveals a vulnerability and anxiety about the stability of a society and the fragility of its customs, norms, values and collective identity. How did you come to characterise the Alberta separatism movement as treasonous?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 这是一个非常好的问题，也是我写这本书的初衷。我起初并不认为它是叛国行为。当我查阅加拿大《刑法典》（Criminal Code）对叛国罪的定义时，发现它并不完全适用——因为《刑法典》第46条对叛国罪的界定，本质上是针对国家元首使用暴力或进行物理攻击。而我们这里讨论的显然不是这种情况。 因此，我花了相当长的时间，才转而通过道德政治哲学的棱镜来审视这一问题，去理解在民族国家层面上所谓的“背叛”究竟意味着什么——从定义上讲，那便是叛国。这是一个古老的概念，贯穿了人类社会的整部发展史。每一个人类群体都有一套价值界限，用来区分谁是在与集体休戚与共，谁是在出卖集体。你必须有一套标准来界定人们何时在背叛你、何时在向外部势力出卖国家、何时在向敌人卑躬屈膝。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: It's a good question, and that's why I wrote the book. I had originally not thought it was treasonous. When I looked at the Criminal Code definition of treason, it doesn't really apply because the criminal code definition under section 46 is really about violence against the head of state. And that's not what we're talking about here. So it took me a while to come around to the idea of looking at this through the lens of moral political philosophy and understanding what betrayal at the level of the nation state looks like, which is by definition, treason. And it's a it's an ancient concept, and it goes back all the way through human society. And every society has had a concept that delineates between those who are working with the group and those who are working against it. You need to have an idea of how to determine that. What is the line for when you know, people are betraying you, when they are selling you out, when they are giving you up to their enemy, to to the enemy.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 你提到你一开始对使用这个词非常犹豫。究竟是发生了什么，跨越了你心中的那道红线，让你觉得“好吧，事实正是如此，它完全吻合了叛国的特征”？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Well, you mentioned you were quite hesitant to use that word in the beginning. What what crossed that line for you to be like, okay, you know what? This is it. This hit the checklist here.
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 主要是由几件事情共同促成的。最核心的转折点，是我看到了一段视频：主要的分离主义领袖之一**杰弗里·罗斯**（Jeffrey Roth）在视频中洋洋得意地详细讲述了他第三次前往华盛顿特区，与美国国务院高层官员进行的闭门会晤。 他描述了一个在高度保密的涉密设施内进行的场景。在长达数小时的时间里，他们全盘制定了一份公投后阿尔伯塔的行动方案：包括美国如何正式承认独立后的阿尔伯塔为一个主权国家，以及美国如何向其提供一笔高达5000亿美元的巨额贷款支持。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Well, there was a there were a few things. The, the main thing was when I watched a video of one of the main separatist leaders, Jeffrey Roth, discussing at length his third visit with high level officials from the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. he described a scenario which took place in a secure facility and over multiple hours, they laid out a plan for a post referendum. Alberta, a plan for the U.S. to Recognize Alberta as an independent state, a plan for the United States to provide a $500 billion loan.
**杰弗里·罗斯**: 一旦公投取得成功结果，阿尔伯塔就能立即启动这笔5000亿美元的授信额度。这样当我们在未来与渥太华谈判时，我们就能站在强者的地位谈判，而不是任人宰割的弱者。
Original English **Jeffrey Roth**: Immediately upon a successful referendum result, Alberta could trigger a $500 billion line of credit so that when we negotiate with Ottawa, you know, we'll be negotiating from a position of strength and not from weakness.
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 这笔巨额贷款以阿尔伯塔省的石油和天然气储量作为抵押，用于帮助阿尔伯塔过渡为一个主权国家乃至美国的一个州。他们甚至连输油管线、养老金计划、新货币发行以及通讯网络接管计划都做了详尽推演。正是在那个时刻，一种极其不安的感觉涌上心头：某些极其不合常理、不可告人的险恶勾当正在这里发生——特别是在加拿大与美国突然之间不再像昔日那样亲密无间的地缘背景下。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Collateralised against the Alberta oil and gas reserves to help with the transition to becoming a state. They described pipelines, pension plans, currency communications, plans, even, and it really started to creep in at that point that something very untoward was happening here, especially at a time when Canada and the United States all of a sudden are no longer the great allies that we once were.
### 脱欧类比与政党劫持 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 帕特里克，你提到我们在阿尔伯塔所见到的这一切，在民主世界中完全没有先例可循。英国前首相**大卫·卡梅伦**（David Cameron）曾公开反对将阿尔伯塔的这次公投同英国**脱欧**（Brexit）相提并论的说法。那么，我们眼前发生的实质究竟是什么？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: So, Patrick, you mentioned that there is no precedent in the democratic world for what we are seeing in Alberta. Former British Prime Minister David Cameron spoke out against claims comparing the vote to Brexit. What are we actually seeing here, though?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 大卫·卡梅伦当年竞选时拿出的政纲非常明确：如果你投票支持我所在的保守党，我们将就是否脱离欧盟举行全民公决。表述极其清晰明确。他当时其实没指望能组建多数政府，但他做到了。他在议会通过的第一项法案，就是为英国脱欧公投制定框架性法律。整套过程高度民主、透明，程序完全正当。 然而，阿尔伯塔的联合保守党根本就不是一个分离主义政党！他们完全不像魁北克省的**魁人党**（Parti Québécois, PQ）。联合保守党在党章宪法上是一个不折不扣的联邦主义政党。他们在2017年成立之初就是一个联邦主义政党；**杰森·肯尼**（Jason Kenney）在2019年是以联邦主义者的身份赢得了多数政府席位。 然而在此期间发生了一件大事：**新冠疫情**爆发了。疫情彻底激化了联合保守党内部的一个激进派系，这帮人甚至在肯尼参加2023年第二次大选前就联手将他赶下了台。他们用丹妮尔·史密斯取代了肯尼——而史密斯是一位极右翼阴谋论者，曾涉足新冠否认论，并且一直与分离主义眉来眼去。她是党内源自野玫瑰党（Wildrose）和极右翼阵营派系推举出的代言人。 史密斯在2023年照常举行的阿尔伯塔省大选中获胜，当时她是以联邦主义者的姿态展开竞选的，打的是极其平淡温和的竞选牌——围绕医疗保健、心理健康支持和减税展开，全是能让选民昏昏欲睡的常规议题。然而，当自由党在第45届联邦大选中第四次胜选组阁后的第二天，联合保守党便火速引入了相关立法，彻底将阿尔伯塔推上了这条分裂的危险轨道。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: So David Cameron ran on an election platform that specifically said, if you vote for my party, the Conservative Party, you we will have a referendum on whether we remain or leave the European Union. Very explicit. He didn't expect to be elected. He didn't expect to get a majority government. He did. And his first act of Parliament was to was to push through legislation to frame a referendum around the UK, leaving the European Union all very democratic, all very transparent, all very above board. The United Conservative Party in Alberta is not a separatist party. They are not like the PQ in Quebec. They are, by constitution, a federalist party. They were formed in 2017 as a Federalist party. Jason Kenney won a majority government in 2019 as a federalist, and something happened in the interim. Covid, Covid happened, and that radicalised a base, a faction of the UCP, to the point where they managed to oust Jason Kenney before he could run a second time in a general election in 2023, they replaced Jason Kenney with Danielle Smith, who was also a far right conspiracist and someone who had dabbled in Covid denialism and is also a who flirted with separation as well. And so she was the choice of the faction of the party that comes from sort of the wild rose and from the, the far right. And she won in 2023, a general election in Alberta, regularly scheduled as a federalist in a very boring campaign, very down the middle. It was about health care. It was about mental health supports. It was about tax cuts. Pretty normal stuff that most voters to sleep. And then the Liberal Party won the 45th general election, and formed government at the federal level for the fourth time. And the next day, the UCP introduced legislation that sent us down this path.
### 外国干预：超级大国的暗流涌动 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 显然，“自由车队”抗议者的残余势力正在暗中推动这一进程。但这次对话中最引人注目的，还有**外国干预**（foreign interference）。当前存在各种相互对立的理论：《环球邮报》（Globe and Mail）一篇热门报道指出，美国正在密切追踪并介入这次投票；而“阿尔伯塔繁荣项目”（Alberta Prosperity Project）的杰弗里·罗斯则坚称，共产主义中国才是威胁。那么在阿尔伯塔面临的挑战中，谁才是最大的外部威胁？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Very clear, that remnants of that Freedom Convoy is is sort of pushing this. But what's interesting from this conversation is also foreign interference. There are competing theories, a popular Globe and Mail piece had said that really, U.S. intervention is following the vote, whereas we have Alberta prosperity projects. Jeffrey Roth, fearing that it's Communist China who is Alberta's biggest threat?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 谁是阿尔伯塔最大的威胁？我认为阿尔伯塔眼下最大的威胁就是分离主义势力本身。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Who is Alberta's biggest threat? I think Alberta's biggest threat is the separatist party, the separatist movement.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 那么外部地缘势力呢？当谈到美国、谈到中国时，在这些理论中他们扮演了什么角色？还是说核心其实仅仅是本土的分离运动？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: What about it? When we were talking, we're talking U.S. we're talking communist, Chinese, Communist Chinese. Do they have anything in this? When we talk about sort of these theories, or is it really the separatist movement here?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 眼下加拿大面临的最大现实外部威胁其实是美国。中国固然可以被视为一种威胁，但目前介入程度更深、甚至超过中国的其实是**俄罗斯**。 俄罗斯通过极其精准、特定且高度复杂的虚假信息战深度介入了这次公投竞选，其根本目的就是为了撕裂阿尔伯塔乃至加拿大的政治肌理。与此同时，美国政界部分人士也极力表现出某种意图。像**里克·斯科特**（Rick Scott）这类美国政客甚至向阿尔伯塔抛出了变相兼并的“橄榄枝”，公开发言称：“嘿，为什么不让他们干脆独立并成为美国的一部分呢？我听说他们那里有丰富的石油和天然气。” 因此，当你意识到有两个世界超级大国——俄罗斯与美国——都把目光紧紧盯在这场公投上，并试图利用它来肢解人类历史上最成功的自由民主国家之一加拿大时，这绝非危言耸听，这是一个生死攸关的安全问题。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: So Canada's biggest threat is the United States of America right now. China could be considered a threat as well. But but also and probably more so than China right now is Russia. And Russia has been involved in meddling in this in this referendum campaign through very targeted and specific and sophisticated disinformation campaign that's designed to divide Alberta's polity. And the United States has also been very explicit in demonstrating. And Scott has given Alberta, Alberta a soft offer of annexation, effectively saying, hey, why don't we just let them come down and become part of the United States? I hear they've got lots of oil and gas up there, he said. So when you consider the fact that you've got two superpowers, Russia and the United States, with their eyes on this referendum and leveraging it to break Canada apart, Canada, the one of the most successful liberal democracies in human history. Yeah, there's an issue there.
### 数据失窃、锚定效应与民主信任危机 **杰扬·杰加纳森**: 我想把话题拉回省内本土。阿尔伯塔选举局（Elections Alberta）发生的选民数据泄露事件，对当前的民主生态和数据隐私未来意味着什么？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: I want to bring it back locally. What does election Alberta's security breach mean for the current state of democracy and the future of privacy?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 阿尔伯塔的全体选民名册被分离主义分子盗取，并被直接导入了一个由美国开发的选民动员应用（Get Out the Vote app）中。在现代民主体制中——
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: So Alberta's voters list was stolen by the separatists, and it was put on an American made get out the Vote app. And in modern democracy.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 这无异于到处拉响了刺眼的警报。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Red flags everywhere right now.
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 没错！因为数据就是权力。数据赋予你直接触达选民的能力，尤其是让你能够利用高度定向的精准心理战去影响那些游离不定的中间摇摆选民。这是我们在英国脱欧公投中吸取的教训，也是我们本该在两年前苏格兰独立公投中吸取的教训。同样的剧本在西班牙加泰罗尼亚公投中反复上演。更为灾难性的先例发生在乌克兰——当年的克里米亚和顿巴斯分离公投，正是俄罗斯全面吞并的前奏。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Exactly. But data is power, right? Data is power. And it allows you to access voters, particularly persuadable voters, with targeted psychological warfare. And that was the lesson that we learned in Brexit. It was the lesson we should have learned in the Scottish devolution referendum two years before that. But it's continued through Catalonia and in the Catalonian referendum in Spain, which was also another secession referendum. But more catastrophically in the Ukraine. Secession referenda preceded Russian annexation of Crimea and the Donbas region of Ukraine.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 你此前将这场公投的设计描述为一种**锚定效应**（anchoring bias）技术的运用。请帮我们理解这背后的逻辑。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: You referred to the referendum using a technique called anchoring or anchoring bias. Help us understand what does that tell us?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 搞出一个包含十个问题、十张选票的公投，这在历史上是彻底空前、绝无仅有的。在整个加拿大历史上从未出现过这样的事情；在阿尔伯塔建省的全部历史中，总共也只向选民提出过七次公投问题；在联邦层面上更只有过三次。 加拿大根本没有直接民主的传统。我们是一个**代议制民主**（representative democracy）国家，我们选举代表以多元包容的方式治理国家。这一点至关重要。联合保守党正在做、并且已经做的事情，就是把阿尔伯塔的民主机制完全颠倒过来——他们宣称：“虽然我们竞选时从未提过这些，但我们现在就要强行把这些问题砸给你们。” 很多人会轻描淡写地说：“这有什么不好？就让人民自己决定呗。”然而问题在于：绝大多数普通老百姓根本不想讨论分离！绝大多数阿尔伯塔人对分裂避之不及。大家真正想要探讨的是双轨制医疗问题；大家想要探讨的是全国90%的**AI数据中心**正大肆侵占我们阿尔伯塔的农业良田；大家想要探讨的是本省公共教育的堪忧现状。但选票上连一个关乎民生痛点的问题都没有。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: So this is entirely unprecedented, right? To have a ten question, ten ballot referendum. Never in Canadian history has there been such a thing in the entire history of Alberta. As a province, there has only been seven questions put to the electorate in Canada. At the federal level, there's only been three. We do not have a tradition of direct democracy. We are a representative democracy. We elect representatives to govern for us in a pluralistic manner. That's really important here. What the UCP is trying to do and what they've done is flip democracy on its head in the province by saying, we didn't run on this, but we're going to put it at you anyways. And a lot of people will say, well, what's wrong with that? Just let the people decide. Well, the people don't want to talk about this. The vast majority of the people want nothing to do with separation. They would like to talk about two tier health care. They would like to talk about 90% of the country's AI data centres being built in Alberta on our agricultural land. They would like to talk about the state of public education in the province, but none of those questions are on a ballot.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 在我们讨论的所有担忧中，该省还存在一个巨大的张力焦点，那就是对原住民条约权利的潜在侵害。在一个假设的情境中，这项分离运动有可能在没有原住民族共同谈判参与的情况下强行推进吗？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Amongst the concerns we've discussed, there is a major tension point in the province with the violation of indigenous treaty rights. In a hypothetical world, could this movement advance without negotiations, without First Nations at the table?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 司法裁决已经给出了答案：绝无可能。在公投举行之前，已有两名法官先后明确裁定这场公投违反宪法——将阿尔伯塔分离的问题列上选票本身就是违宪的。两位不同的法官曾先后两次裁决确立了这一点，但省政府依然置若罔闻，执意推进。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Not according to the courts. According to the courts, two judges have ruled that this referendum is unconstitutional, putting the question of Alberta's separate separation on a ballot is unconstitutional. That was found twice by two separate judges in the lead up to this, and the government decided to go anyways and do it anyways.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 无论投票结果如何，经此一役，阿尔伯塔未来将处于何种状态？
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Regardless of the outcome of the vote, what is the state of Alberta after this date?
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 分裂。极度撕裂，而且很可能对省内的民主制度本身产生空前的不信任感。我们的民主程序和选举结果将开始遭到持续质疑，公众会开始怀疑其公正性和正当性。 而这正是民主走向消亡的方式——当人民不再信任程序，他们便不再信任结果；一旦走到那一步，你就会陷入我们在美国所目睹的那种选举否认主义恶性循环中。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Divided, divided and in all likelihood very distrustful of democracy in the province. Our democratic processes and outcomes will start to come under scrutiny. People will start to doubt the integrity of them and the integrity of these processes. And that's how democracy dies when people don't trust the process, they don't trust the outcome. And that's how you get into these vicious cycles of elections denialism like we've seen in the United States.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 帕特里克，今天的探讨就先到这里。非常感谢你做客《The Rundown》。
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: Patrick, we are going to leave it there. I want to thank you so much for joining us on "The Rundown".
**帕特里克·伦诺克斯**: 谢谢邀请。
Original English **Patrick Lennox**: Thanks for having me.
**杰扬·杰加纳森**: 我很想知道，你昨晚熬夜关注阿尔伯塔公投的结果了吗？你对这一结局有何看法？请在下方留言告诉我们。你可以发送电子邮件至 TheRundown@TVO.org，或者在我们的 YouTube 页面下留言。在此之前，我们明天见。 接下来请看我们正在制作的一期预告：
Original English **Jeyan Jeganathan**: I have to ask, did you stay up late to watch the Alberta referendum results? How do you feel about the outcome? Let us know. Send us an email to TheRundown@TVO.org or drop us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you tomorrow. Here's something we're working on.
**受访者**: 这正是为什么奥斯姆大学（NOSM University）至关重要的原因之一。我们致力于将那些认为医学是有吸引力的职业方向的年轻人吸引进来，并在北部地区接受专业培训，从而为他们日后在北部地区扎根并开启长期职业生涯做好充分准备。
Original English **Speaker**: It's one of the reasons awesome University is important. We focus on trying to get people who might find that an attractive career into medicine, trained and training in the north so that they're ready for that long term career. Afterwards.