---
author: New York Times Podcasts
date: '2026-04-13'
guest: ''
layout: post.njk
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_v9CRtqz3g
speaker: New York Times Podcasts
tags:
- middle-east-conflict
- ceasefire-negotiations
- proxy-wars
- geopolitical-strategy
- israel-security
title: 美伊谈判破裂：以色列在中东冲突中的关键角色与困境
summary: 本次对话深入探讨了美伊停火谈判失败的背景与原因，以及以色列在其中扮演的关键角色。谈判破裂后，以色列与黎巴嫩真主党之间的冲突进一步升级，美国与以色列在停火问题上出现明显分歧。对话还分析了以色列总理内塔尼亚胡坚持打击真主党的安全考量，以及伊朗在地区代理人战争中的战略布局。最终，讨论指出中东地区多条战线仍未平息，解决地区冲突的道路充满挑战。
insight: ''
draft: true
series: ''
category: geopolitics
area: geopolitics
project: []
people:
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Donald Trump
- JD Vance
companies_orgs:
- Hezbollah
- Hamas
- IDF
products_models: []
media_books: []
status: evergreen
---
### 美伊谈判破裂与以色列的角色
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 来自《**纽约时报**》，我是**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**。这里是《**The Daily**》节目。本周末，**美国**和**伊朗**之间的马拉松式谈判未能取得任何突破，临时停火协议似乎比以往任何时候都更加岌岌可危。悬而未决的最大问题之一是**以色列**，以及它是否会接受和平，还是会在多条战线上继续战斗，从而威胁到任何达成协议的可能性。今天，我的同事**马克·米塞蒂**和**罗南·伯格曼**将对此进行解释。今天是4月13日星期一。**罗南**、**马克**，你们好。现在是东海岸时间星期天早上10点，而在**以色列**，**罗南**你那里是下午5点。我们之所以这么说，是因为情况总是在变化。感谢你们在星期天加入我们。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: From the **New York Times**, I'm **Natalie Kitrov**. This is **The Daily**. After the marathon negotiations between the **US** and **Iran** this weekend failed to produce any breakthroughs, the temporary ceasefire appears more precarious than ever. One of the biggest questions looming over it is **Israel** and whether it will accept peace or keep fighting a war on multiple fronts that threatens any chance of a deal. Today, my colleagues **Mark Misetti** and **Ronan Bergman** explain. It's Monday, April 13th. **Ronan** **Mark**, hello. It is about 10:00 a.m. on Sunday on the East Coast, 5:00 PM where you are, **Ronin** in **Israel**. And we say that because things can always change. Thank you for joining us on a Sunday.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 谢谢。谢谢邀请我们。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Thank you. Thanks for inviting us.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 整个战争期间，我们一直在请教你们两位，以了解**以色列**在这场冲突中所扮演的角色。在当前这个特殊时刻，这个问题变得比以往任何时候都更加关键，因为**以色列**似乎仍在积极威胁**美国**和**伊朗**之间的停火。我们稍后会探讨这种情况是如何演变的。但首先，请帮助我了解一下目前的情况。本周末，包括副总统**J.D. 万斯**在内的**伊朗**和**美国**谈判代表在**巴基斯坦**举行了会晤。**马克**，情况如何？**J.D. 万斯**和**伊朗**高级代表团星期六在**伊斯兰堡**举行了一场马拉松式会议，他们在那里讨论了双方最大的分歧。没有人能说出谈判中发生了什么，许多记者在那里等待任何消息，但一无所获。接着，到华盛顿时间星期六晚上，我们得到消息说谈判破裂了。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: So, we've turned to you both throughout this war to understand the role that **Israel** has played in this conflict. And that question has become more critical than ever at this particular moment when it appears that **Israel** continues to actively threaten the ceasefire between the **US** and **Iran**. And we're going to get to how that's playing out. But first, just help me understand the state of things right now. Negotiators from **Iran** and the **US** including Vice President **JD Vance** met in **Pakistan** this weekend. **Mark**, where do things stand? So **JD Vance** and a very senior delegation of **Iranian** officials had a marathon session on Saturday in **Islamabad** where they were meeting to hash out some of their biggest differences. No one could tell what was happening in the negotiations where a lot of reporters were waiting around to find out any piece of information and there was nothing coming. And then by Saturday night Washington time, we get word that the talks had broken down.
**J.D. 万斯**: 早上好，各位，请允许我说几句感谢的话。首先，**J.D. 万斯**出来宣布没有达成协议。我们已经努力了21个小时，并且与**伊朗**人进行了多次实质性讨论。这是个好消息。坏消息是我们没有达成协议，我认为这对于**伊朗**来说是坏消息，远甚于对**美国**来说的坏消息。所以**美国**代表团正在离开**伊斯兰堡**，目前没有立即进行下一轮谈判的可能，尽管这当然可能发生。我们已经非常清楚地表明了我们的红线，我们愿意在哪些方面 accommodating 他们，以及我们不愿意在哪些方面 accommodating 他们。我们已经尽可能清楚地表明了这一点，而他们选择了不接受我们的条件。
Original English
**JD Vance**: Well, good morning everybody and let me say a couple of notes of appreciation. First of all, **JD Vance** comes out and he announces that there's no deal. We have been at it now for 21 hours and uh we've had a number of substantive discussions with the **Iranians**. That's the good news. The bad news is that we have not reached an agreement and I think that's bad news for **Iran** much more than it's bad news for the **United States** of America. So the **American** delegation is leaving **Islamabad** and there's really no immediate prospects for another round of negotiations although that could certainly happen. We've made very clear what our red lines are, what things we're willing to accommodate them on and what things we're not willing to accommodate them on. And uh we've made that as clear as we possibly could and they have chosen not to accept our terms.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 与此同时，出现了这种非同寻常的“分屏”场景，今晚与我们同楼的**特朗普**总统正在**迈阿密**观看**UFC**比赛。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: And meanwhile there's this sort of extraordinary split screen where and with us in the building tonight, **President Trump** is in **Miami** at a **UFC** fight.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 噢，哇。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Oh wow.
**特朗普**: **美利坚合众国**，**唐纳德·J·特朗普**，对这一切表现出某种漠不关心。我们会看看发生什么。听着，无论如何，我们都会赢。无论发生什么，我们都会赢。
Original English
**Donald Trump**: **United States** of America, **Donald J. Trump** projecting kind of indifference to the whole thing. We'll see what happens. Look, regardless, we win. Regardless what happens, we win.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 他对前来采访的记者说：“嗯，我真的不关心这些谈判的结果，因为我们已经赢了。”
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: You know, he says to reporters on the way down, "Well, I don't really care what goes on in these negotiations because we've already won."
**特朗普**: 除此之外，我们正在谈判。无论我们是否达成协议，对我来说都没有区别。
Original English
**Donald Trump**: In addition to that, we're negotiating. Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 他已经宣布胜利了。所以，那真是令人惊奇的一天，但最终对于**伊朗**战争的下一步而言，结果却非常不确定，对吧？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: He's already declared victory. So, it was sort of an amazing day that ultimately ended very inconclusively in terms of what's next in the war on **Iran**, right?
**马克·米塞蒂**: 尽管**特朗普**的说法相反，但这次并没有达成任何解决方案。这件事情没有结束。它没有被解决。它仍然摆在台面上。接下来会发生什么？
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Right? Despite **Trump's** statement to the contrary, there is no resolution that's come out of this. This thing is not over. It's not one. It's very much still on the table. What's going to happen next?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 对。**伊朗**仍然控制着**霍尔木兹海峡**，该海峡仍然关闭。**伊朗**仍然拥有**高浓缩铀**的库存，而**美国**希望它放弃。**伊朗**要求解除**美国**多年来对其实施的严厉**经济制裁**。因此，在星期六的所有这些谈判之后，似乎在这些方面都没有取得重大进展。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Right. **Iran** still controls the **straight of Hormuz**, which remains closed. **Iran** still has a stockpile of **highlyenriched uranium**, which the **United States** wants it to give up. And **Iran** is demanding **economic sanctions** relief from these very crippling sanctions that the **United States** for years has imposed on the country. And so after all these negotiations on Saturday, it doesn't appear there was great progress on any of those fronts.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 所以这些是主要的争议点。**马克**，海峡关闭了。**高浓缩铀**的库存会怎样？以及潜在的**制裁**减免呢？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: So those are the main points of contention. **Mark** the straight being closed. What happens with the stockpile of highlyenriched uranium and potential sanctions relief?
**马克·米塞蒂**: 是的，还有另一个原因，这个原因更隐秘，更不为人知，那就是**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Yes, that and there's another reason which is kind of more unstated and a bit more under the radar and that's **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon**.
**罗南·伯格曼**: **伊朗**非常希望**伊朗**战争的任何停止都能与**以色列**停止打击**真主党**挂钩，**真主党**是**伊朗**重要的**代理人军队**。然而，**以色列**不希望**真主党**成为任何谈判停火的一部分，并希望出于自身原因继续那部分战争。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: **Iran** very much wants any cessation of the war in **Iran** to be coupled with an ending of **Israeli** strikes against **Hezbollah** which is a critical **proxy army** for **Iran**. And yet **Israel** doesn't want **Hezbollah** to be part of any negotiated ceasefire and wants to keep that part of the war going for its own reasons.
### 以色列对停火的反应
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 好的，我们稍后会探讨这些原因，但首先请您解释一下**以色列**及其目前的立场。**罗南**，上次我们都在节目中谈话时，你们都告诉我们，**以色列**总理**本杰明·内塔尼亚胡**担心**美国**会在**以色列**希望之前，也就是在实现其目标之前，退出这场战争。然后上周二，经过5周的战斗，我们达成了停火协议。那么，当**以色列**得知**美国**正在迈出结束战争的第一步时，它作何反应？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Okay, we're going to get to those reasons, but first just explain **Israel** and its position right now for me. **Ronan**, the last time we all talked on the show, you both told us that **Israeli** Prime Minister **Benjamin Netanyahu** was worried that the **US** would pull out of this war earlier than **Israel** wanted, before its objectives were achieved. And then we got this ceasefire last Tuesday after 5 weeks of fighting. So, how did **Israel** react when it learned that the **US** was taking what looked like a first step toward ending the war?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 所以，**以色列**总理**本杰明·内塔尼亚胡**担心**美国**会在没有充分考虑**以色列**立场的情况下签署停火协议。然后**内塔尼亚胡**试图说服总统，我们需要更多时间，但最终总统同意了停火。所以，整个事情被描述为一场联合战争，**以色列**和**美国**的。**娜塔莉**、**马克**和我上次和你们谈过，关于**内塔尼亚胡**如何在说服**特朗普**参战方面起到了关键作用。但战争一旦开始，**内塔尼亚胡**在某种程度上被边缘化了，**特朗普**没有就何时以及以何种条件结束战争征求他的意见。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: So, **Benjamin Netanyahu**, **Israeli** Prime Minister was concerned that the **US** will sign a ceasefire without taking too much into account **Israel's** position. And then **Netanyahu** was trying to convince the president, we need more time, but at the end, the president agreed to a ceasefire. So, the whole thing was presented as a joint war, **Israel** and the **US**. **Natalie** **Mark** and I spoke about this with you last time about how **Netanyahu** was so pivotal in convincing **Trump** to get into the war. But once the war started, **Netanyahu** was sidelined to an extent and **Trump** did not consult with him about when to end the war and in what terms.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 哇。那么**以色列**是否提前得到了**特朗普**即将达成停火协议的消息？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Wow. So did did **Israel** get a heads up that **Trump** was about to reach a ceasefire deal?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 是的，但只在最后一刻。那是周二很晚的时候，**以色列**时间。他们知道**美国**和**伊朗**之间的协议，即**巴基斯坦**总理即将宣布的协议，包括**黎巴嫩**的停火。这是他们不喜欢的事情。**内塔尼亚胡**总理试图说服总统不要这样做。但他们发现，停火条款不仅是关于**伊朗**的，还包括**以色列**和**黎巴嫩**之间战争的全面停火。现在，这完全是另一回事了。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Yeah, but only at the very last minute. This was very late on Tuesday. **Israel** time. They knew that the the deal between the **US** and **Iran** that will be soon announced by the **Pakistani** prime minister includes a ceasefire in **Lebanon**. This is something they didn't like. Prime Minister **Netanyahu** tried to convince the president not to do that. But the terms of the ceasefire, as they found out, are not just about **Iran**, but are also about a total ceasefire in the war between **Israel** and **Lebanon**. Now this is a totally different ball game.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 为什么这很重要？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Why does it matter?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 因为**黎巴嫩**的主要军事力量是**伊朗**的盟友。他们在**伊朗**的压力下，以一种声援的方式开始向**以色列**开火。他们想进行小规模的交火。**以色列**以强大的武力回应，经过短暂的冲突，双方发现自己完全陷入了一场全面战争，**以色列**表示，除非解除威胁，否则他们不会停止。解除威胁意味着解除**真主党**的武装。**真主党**发现自己不仅是在声援**伊朗**的战友和兄弟，而且他们意识到，在**黎巴嫩**，他们正在为自己的生存而战，这对于**以色列**来说是一个全新的战线，完全卷入了其中。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Because the main military force in **Lebanon** are **Iranian** allies. They started shooting at **Israel** as a sort of a solidarity and under pressure from **Iran**. They wanted to have a small exchange of fire. **Israel** reacted with massive force and after a short while both sides found themselves totally deteriorated in all allout war and **Israel** they said we will not stop until we remove the threat. Remove the threat meaning dismantling disarming. **Sobala** found itself not just showing solidarity to their comrades and brothers in **Iran** but they realized that they in **Lebanon** are fighting existential threat themselves a total new front that **Israel** got itself totally mixed in.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 对，**以色列**在这场针对**黎巴嫩****真主党**的“战中战”中陷入困境。您说的是**以色列**对停火感到不满，不仅因为他们觉得**美国**这个伙伴没有适当告知他们协议的所有条款，还因为其中一项条款是**黎巴嫩**的停火。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Right **Israel** got inshed in this war within a war against **Hezbollah** in **Lebanon** and what you're saying is that **Israel** is frustrated with the ceasefire not just because they feel that they weren't appropriately informed by their partner, the **United States**, about all of the terms of the agreement, but that one of the terms is a ceasefire in **Lebanon**.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 是的。有几个小时，**以色列**和**美国**都没有提及**黎巴嫩**不包括在内。在这几个小时里，**以色列**耶路撒冷向**白宫**打了许多电话进行沟通。据我所知，他们基本上是在要求**特朗普**总统，让**以色列**至少再进行一轮打击，但**内塔尼亚胡**陷入了困境。嗯。所以，为了明确您所说的，**罗南**，**以色列**、**美国**和**伊朗**都认为**黎巴嫩**最初是包含在停火协议中的。正因为如此，**以色列**正在拼命地进行外交努力，试图说服**特朗普**收回成命，允许他们继续在**黎巴嫩**进行攻击。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Yeah. And for few hours there was nothing said in **Israel** or in the **US** that **Lebanon** is not included. And during these few hours, there were like many many phone calls and communication from **Israel**, from **Jerusalem** to the **White House**. And as I heard, basically asking **Trump**, **President Trump**, to let **Israel** do at least one more round, but **Netanyahu** was in a tight spot. Hm. So, just to be clear about what you're saying, **Ronan**, what was understood by both **Israel**, the **US**, and **Iran** was that **Lebanon** was included in the ceasefire deal originally. And **Israel** because of that is furiously trying to do diplomacy and trying to persuade **Trump** to go back on that to allow them to keep attacking in **Lebanon**.
**马克·米塞蒂**: **以色列**没有同意停火。它接受了针对**伊朗**的停火。它没有接受针对**黎巴嫩**的停火。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: **Israel** did not agree to the ceasefire. It accepted the ceasefire on **Iran**. It did not accept the ceasefire on **Lebanon**.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 我认为这就是您看到**美国**和**以色列**在**伊朗**战争中的利益分歧的一个例子。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: I think this is where you see one example of **American Israeli** interests diverging in the war in **Iran**.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 说多一点。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Say more.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 嗯，我的意思是，一方面，你看到**特朗普**总统和他的顾问们越来越沮丧，因为这场战争没有达到他们想要的效果。**伊朗**没有屈服，对吧？**华盛顿**的许多人都在寻找出路，寻找结束战争，走向停火的途径。而在**以色列**，**内塔尼亚胡**总理和他的顾问们则决心要让这场战争持续更长时间，以确保它有一个更明确的结局。关于**黎巴嫩**和**真主党**的问题，我的意思是，实际上，**特朗普**总统，我认为，并不关心**黎巴嫩**和**真主党**会发生什么。如果**黎巴嫩**的停火是**伊朗**战争最终结束的一部分，我认为**特朗普**总统对此完全满意。但正如**罗南**所说，这对于**内塔尼亚胡**总理来说，是更难接受的事情。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Well, I mean, for one, you saw that increasingly **President Trump** and his advisers were growing frustrated that the war was not achieving the effects that they wanted it to achieve. **Iran** was not buckling, right? And many in **Washington** were kind of looking for an exit, a way out of the war, a way towards a ceasefire. Where in **Israel**, there was a determination among **Prime Minister Netanyahu** and his adviserss to keep this going longer to make sure this would have a more conclusive end. And on this issue of **Lebanon** and **Hezbollah**, I mean, effectively, **President Trump**, I don't think, cares what happens in **Lebanon** and with **Hezbollah**. If if a ceasefire in **Lebanon** is part of an ultimate end to the war in **Iran**, I think **President Trump** is perfectly happy with that. But this is something that's far more difficult for **Prime Minister Netanyahu** to digest as **Ronin** said.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 而这种分歧在停火协议宣布后的第二天，也就是周三，得到了充分展现。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: And this divergence is on full display on Wednesday, the day after the ceasefire announcement.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 今天，**以色列**对**黎巴嫩**首都**贝鲁特**发动了超过100次袭击，这是战争爆发以来规模最大的一次。当**以色列**对**真主党**发动大规模轰炸时，几分钟内袭击了100多个目标。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Today, **Israel** unleashing a sprawling barrage of more than 100 attacks on the **Lebanese** capital, **Beirut**, the most since the war began. When **Israel** launches a massive bombardment against **Hezbollah**, over a hundred targets in minutes.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 我们看到了主要路口堆积如山的烧焦汽车，堵塞道路的瓦砾山，整个公寓楼被夷为平地。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: We saw piles of charred cars at major intersections, mountains of rubble clogging the roads, entire apartment blocks raised to the ground.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 死亡人数众多。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: scores dead.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 但我们真正看到的是可怕的场景，人们，包括儿童，从居民楼、杂货店、商店的废墟中被拉出来。嗯。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: But what we've really seen are horrific scenes of people, including children, being pulled from the rubble of residential building, grocery stores, shops. Mhm.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 这似乎揭示了**美国**和**以色列**在这里根本不在同一立场上。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: And it sort of laid bare this idea that the **US** and **Israel** are not at all on the same page here.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 是的。那次袭击的场景简直是毁灭性的。**特朗普**是否知道这次袭击会发生？**罗南**，据我所知，官方发言人对此予以否认，但据我所知，**美国**人知道**以色列**会进行打击，但他们对打击的程度感到震惊。我听说他们向**以色列**人抱怨说，他们不知道要轰炸什么，以及轰炸的规模，当然还有**黎巴嫩**报告的附带损害和遇难平民。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Yeah. The scenes from that attack were just devastating. Was **Trump** aware that this attack was going to happen? **Ronin**, as far as I understand, this is pushed back by the official spokesperson, but as far as I understand, the **Americans** were aware that **Israel** is going to strike, but they were shocked at the extent of the strike. I heard that they complained to the **Israelis** that they didn't know what they going to bomb and the volume of the bombing of course that the collateral damage the civilians that were killed that is reported from **Lebanon**.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 嗯，您是说**美国**确实知道这会发生，但没有理解其规模。**以色列**到底准备走多远？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Well, you're saying the **US** did have some knowledge that this was going to occur but didn't understand the magnitude of it. Just how far **Israel** was prepared to go.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 你看到了**伊朗**的反应。**伊朗**领导人对此非常愤怒，也认识到他们拥有的影响力。如果**华盛顿**真的想结束**伊朗**战争，**伊朗**人也可以要求结束**黎巴嫩**战争，他们可以利用我刚才谈到的**美国**-**以色列**关系中的这个裂痕。所以他们就是这么做的。他们基本上说：“如果你想坐下来谈论结束**伊朗**战争，那么**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**也是停火的一部分。”
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: And you saw the reaction from **Iran**. **Iranian** leaders were furious about this and also recognize the leverage that they have. If **Washington** really wants to end the war in **Iran**, the **Iranians** can also demand an end to the war in **Lebanon** and they can exploit this seam I just talked about in the **USIsraeli** relationship. So that's what they did. They basically said, "If you want to sit down and talk about an end of the war in **Iran**, well, **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon** are part of the ceasefire as well."
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 这强调了这会使整个停火协议面临多大的风险，这显然与**特朗普**的利益相悖。那么，如果你是**以色列**，为什么要这样做？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: which underscores just how much this puts the entire ceasefire at risk, which is obviously against **Trump's** interest." So why do that if you're **Israel**?
**马克·米塞蒂**: 因为**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**对于**内塔尼亚胡**总理提出的**以色列安全**理念至关重要。尽管他谈论**伊朗**及其威胁，但他所阐述的来自**真主党**的威胁显然离本土更近，并且对他自己的政治未来至关重要。我们稍后回来。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: because **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon** are absolutely central to the idea that **Prime Minister Netanyahu** has set forward about the **security of Israel**. As much as he talks about **Iran** and the threat from **Iran**, the threat from **Hezbollah**, as he's laid out, is far closer obviously to home and central to his own political future. We'll be right back.
### 以色列与真主党的持久战
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: **罗南**，正如您告诉我们的，**以色列**最初坚决反对将**黎巴嫩**纳入停火协议。以至于他们宁愿为此将整个事情置于危险之中。我想请您帮助我们更深入地理解为什么，特别是**马克**刚才所说的，**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**对**内塔尼亚胡**关于**以色列安全**的论点至关重要。请您详细阐述一下这个论点。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: **Ronan**, as you've told us, **Israel** was dead set against **Lebanon** being included in this ceasefire deal in the first place. So much so that they're willing to put the whole thing at risk over it. I want you to help deepen our understanding of why and particularly of what **Mark** just said that **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon** are absolutely central to **Netanyahu's** argument about **Israel's security**. So just walk me through that argument.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 人们忘记了，在**10月7日**之前，**真主党**被认为是**以色列**最凶猛和最具威胁性的敌人。**以色列**投入了大量精力准备这场战争，他们知道总有一天会战斗。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: So people forget that before **October 7**, it was who was considered to be the most fierce and threatening enemy of **Israel**. And **Israel** devoted so much preparing for such a war, they knew one day they were willing to fight.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: **真主党**，以至于他们没有足够重视**哈马斯**。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: **Kzbala** that the extent they they didn't put enough attention to **kamas**.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 接着**10月7日**开始了，**真主党**以低烈度参战，并持续了一整年，然后在**9月24日**，**以色列**对世界说，他们引爆了3500多枚寻呼机，这些寻呼机戴在特工的腰间。然后他们继续猛攻了10天。他们杀死了指挥官。他们杀死了士兵。他们炸毁了地堡，**真主党**不得不屈服并同意停火，条件是屈辱的。这完全是一次非凡的**军事情报行动**成功。但正如这场战争中发生的那样，**内塔尼亚胡**总理不满足于这次胜利。他必须做得更多。他基本上对**以色列**公众说。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: then started **October 7** joined the war on a low level and it accelerated through a year and then in **September 24** **Israel** to talk the world and they exploded some 3,500 pages. ers that were on the waist of operatives. And then for 10 days they continued to hammer. They killed the the commanders. They killed the troops. They exploded the bunkers andbala had to stand down and agree them to a ceasefire with humiliating terms. This was all a quite the extraordinary **military intelligence operational success**. But as it happened in this war, **Prime Minister Net** was not satisfied just with this victory. He had to end more. And he basically said to the **Israeli** public.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: **以色列**被摧毁了。我们解除了威胁。嗯。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: **Israel** decimated. We removed the threat. Hm.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 你们所有在战争开始时逃离**以色列**北部的难民，你们可以回去了。是安全的。**内塔尼亚胡**基本上是说，由于这次非凡的袭击，从寻呼机开始，我想我们都记得。然后是一波又一波的打击，消灭了**真主党**高层领导人。传递的信息是，现在对于住在**黎巴嫩**边境的**以色列**北部居民来说，回家是安全的。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: You all the refugees that fled the north of **Israel** at the beginning of the war, you can go back. It's safe. **Netanyahu** is saying basically that as a result of this remarkable attack started with the pagers. I think we all remember that. And then proceeded with these waves of strikes taking out top **Hezbollah** leaders. The message was it's now safe for **Israelis** who lived in the north of the country which borders **Lebanon** to go home.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 是的。所以**黎巴嫩**的实际情况是**以色列**每隔几天就发动袭击，但**真主党**没有反应。我认为这首先让**以色列**人民觉得总理是对的。没有**真主党**了。他们没有反应。他们没有报复。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Yes. And so the reality happening in **Lebanon** was that **Israel** was attacking every few days and did not react. And I think that gave first of all it gave the **Israeli** people the sense that Prime Minister was right. There's nobbala. They're not reacting. They're not retaliating.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 其次，它让军方官员觉得他们可以对**真主党**为所欲为，**真主党**会保持克制。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: And the second, it gave the military officials a sense that they can do tobah whatever they want, will stay detailed.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 哇。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Wow.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 嗯，结果并非完全正确，因为**真主党**一旦恢复，并觉得现在情况严重了。这是关于他们作为**黎巴嫩**一支武装力量的自身生存问题，他们就开始反击了。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Well, turned out not to be that correct because once recovered and felt that this is now this is serious. This is about their own existence as an armed force in **Lebanon**, they started fighting.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 您指的是**真主党**在**伊朗**的敦促下，在当前这场战争期间对**黎巴嫩**发动的袭击，这暴露了**真主党**实际上并未被摧毁的事实。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: You're talking about the strikes that **Hezbollah** carried out on **Lebanon** at **Iran's** urging during this current war that exposed the fact that **Hezbollah** had not in fact been decimated.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 是的。**以色列**的整个北部地区再次遭到火箭弹和导弹的轰炸。你知道，甚至我正在向你说话的这所房子，这里是**特拉维夫**，**以色列**中部。我们被轰炸了，所以他们那个不存在的、被摧毁的**真主党**，几天前仍然能够从**黎巴嫩**向**以色列**中部发射导弹。所以突然间**以色列**公众意识到。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Yes. The whole of the northern hemisphere of **Israel** started to be bombed again with rockets and missiles. And you know even this house, the house I'm speaking to you from, this is **Tel Aviv**. This is central **Israel**. We were born by so they the non-existent decimated was still able to send missiles from **Lebanon** to central **Israel** just few days ago. So suddenly the **Israeli** public realized that.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 在**加沙**，战争没有结束。**哈马斯**仍然控制着**加沙地带**的一半。在**伊朗**，战争没有结束。在**内塔尼亚胡**说问题已经解决之后，**伊朗**仍然在向**以色列**发射导弹，现在他们意识到**黎巴嫩**战线没有结束，因为还在开火，所以这一切就像一个又一个的开放战线，在将近三年的战争之后，一切都还在进行中。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: in **Gaza** the war is not over. **Hamas** is controlling half of the **Gaza Strip**. In **Iran** the war is not over. **Iran** is still sending missiles at **Israel** after **Netanyahu** said the problem is removed and now they realize that **Lebanon** is the front is not over because shooting so it's all like open fronts one after the other after almost three years of war it's still everything is open.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 好的，我想谈谈那个开放战线的问题，这场正在进行的与**真主党**的战争有没有终点？我知道**内塔尼亚胡**可能试图在国内民众面前挽回颜面，因为民众意识到他们可能被误导了，并完成对这个**激进组织**的打击。但是**以色列**什么时候才会觉得在这条战线上已经做得足够了？
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: okay I want to talk about that issue of open fronts is there an end point to this now ongoing war with **Hezbollah** I understand that **Netanyahu** is perhaps trying to save face at home with a public that realized that maybe they were misled and finish the job against this militant group. But when will **Israel** feel it has done enough on that front?
**马克·米塞蒂**: **以色列**吸取的主要教训，这不仅仅是**内塔尼亚胡**，你会从**以色列国防军**最低级别的军官或**以色列国防机构**的任何其他雇员那里听到，他们从**10月7日**吸取的教训是，绝不能让敌对势力成长并变得过于强大，一旦这股势力宣称其目标是消灭**以色列国**。所以**以色列**的最终目标是解除**真主党**的武装。这只能通过三种方式实现。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: The main lesson that **Israel** learned and it's not just **Netanyahu**, you'll hear this from the lowest rank officer of the **IDF** or any other employee of the **Israeli Defense Establishment**. The lesson they learned from **October 7** is never let a hostile force grow and get too strong once this force declares that its goal is to eliminate the **state of Israel**. So the endgame from **Israel** is to dismantleah, disarmah. This can be done in only three ways. It's either.
**罗南·伯格曼**: **真主党**出于自身意愿这样做。不太可能。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: does it out of its own will. Unlikely.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 是的。可能性不大。其次是**黎巴嫩**政府将全力以赴，收缴武器，并对其主权行使管辖。现在，这是**黎巴嫩**政府在**2024年9月**至**10月****以色列**与**黎巴嫩**之间的停火协议中承诺要做的事情。他们失败了。所以，唯一的选择是**以色列**将征服**黎巴嫩**并解除**真主党**的武装，这是**以色列**不想做的事情。他们在1982年尝试过，结果非常糟糕。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Yeah. Not very not very. Second is that the **Lebanese** government will go in full force, take the weapon and enforce its sovereignity over **Kizbala**. Now, this is something that the **Lebanese** government committed to do in the agreement of the ceasefire between **Israel** and **Lebanon** from **September October 2024**. They failed. So, the only alternative is that **Israel** will conquer **Lebanon** and dismantle, something that **Israel** doesn't want to do. They tried that in **1982** when it, you know, it added up very badly.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 与此同时，为了给北部社区一些安全感，他们创建了一个**缓冲区**，在**黎巴嫩**境内的一条地带，他们将在那里部署部队，将公民与另一边的**真主党**行动人员隔开。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: And in the meantime, just to give some sense of security to the communities in the north, they create a **buffer zone**, a strip inside **Lebanon** where they'll have forces that will divide between citizens and the operatives of **Kisbala** at the other side.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 所以这关乎惩罚**以色列**的敌人，为了国内消费而展示实力。这个**缓冲区**需要**以色列**占领**黎巴嫩**部分领土，对吧，**黎巴嫩**的土地。当然，这意味着**以色列**计划或一些**以色列**官员希望看到**黎巴嫩**部分地区继续遭受大规模破坏。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: So this is about punishing **Israeli** enemies, showing strength for local consumption. This **buffer zone** requires **Israel** occupying part of **Lebanon's** territory, right, **Lebanese** land. The implication, of course, is that **Israel** plans or or some **Israeli** officials would like to see real massive destruction in parts of **Lebanon** continue.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 而且现在正在发生。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: and it's happening as we speak.
### 伊朗坚持与“抵抗轴心”同盟
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 好的，所以现在很清楚为什么**以色列**如此投入。我现在想谈谈**伊朗**，以及为什么**伊朗**在这个问题上如此坚持，并威胁要因为**以色列**的这些袭击而阻碍海峡。**罗南**，仅仅是因为**真主党**长期以来一直是他们在该地区如此重要的**代理人**吗？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Okay, so it seems very clear why **Israel** is so invested in this. I want to talk now about **Iran** and why **Iran** is digging in over this and threatening to hold up the strait over these **Israeli** attacks. **Ronan**, is it just because **Hezbollah** has been such an important **proxy** for them in the region for so long?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 我认为更深层的原因。在1979年**霍梅尼神权革命**后不久，**伊朗**开始投资于**伊朗**境外的代理人、军队和组织。而第一个也是最亲密的盟友是他们在1983年**84年**建立的，然后投入了大量资金，主要基于三个原因。一是他们来自相同的血统。他们去**库姆**和**纳杰夫**的相同宗教学校。他们是亲戚。他们是**什叶派**。这不仅仅是关于**伊朗**，我们正在寻找的词是**穆卡瓦**(mukawa)。**穆卡瓦**在阿拉伯语中意味着**抵抗**。**伊朗**及其代理人，以及**胡塞武装**、**哈马斯**和**巴勒斯坦伊斯兰圣战组织**，以及**伊拉克**和**叙利亚**的民兵，他们称自己为**抵抗轴心**（Jabal Mukawa）。在这种情况下，这是一次检验，看看**伊朗**为了拯救这个轴心的另一个伙伴，愿意冒多大的风险。这是他们伙伴关系的核心，是他们兄弟情谊的核心。所以**以色列**想打破这种联盟。**以色列**想摧毁这个轴心。嗯。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: I think even much deeper. Shortly after the **Khomeini clerical revolution** in **1979**, **Iran** started to invest in proxies in forces and organizations outside of **Iran**. And the first one and the closest ally was they founded in **1983 84** and then invested so much for basically three reasons. One is that they come from the same blood. They go to the same religious schools in the holy city of **K** and **Najv**. They are relatives. They are **Shiites**. And it's not just about **Iran** and the word that we are looking for is **mukawa**. **Mukawa** in **Arabic** means **resistance**. **Iran** and its proxies and the **Houthis** and **Hamas** and **Palestinian Islamic Jihad** and the militias in **Iraq** and in **Syria** they call themselves **Jabal Mukawa** the **axis of resistance**. And this case is a test of how much **Iran** is willing to risk in order to save the other partner of this axis. This is the core of their partnership, the core of their brotherhood. And so **Israel** wants to break the alignment. **Israel** want to destroy the axis. Hm.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 我认为接下来的几天或几周，对于**以色列**与**抵抗轴心**之间的区域战争的历史来说，将是相当重要的。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: And I think that the next few days or weeks are going to be quite significant in the history of the war, the regional war between **Israel** and the **axis of resistance**.
### 解决冲突的僵局与力量平衡
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 好的，我在这里大胆猜测一下，这听起来像是一个非常难以解决的局面。**马克**，我想再问您一下，鉴于这段历史，这里的解决方案会是什么样子？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: All right, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this all sounds like a very difficult situation to resolve. **Mark**, I want to turn back to you and ask, given this history, what would a path to a resolution even look like here?
**马克·米塞蒂**: 嗯，没有简单的途径，你可以看到上周结束时，每个人都在摸索，试图弄清楚如何同时处理所有这些棘手的问题。有一个声明说，**内塔尼亚胡**总理和**以色列**政府将开始与**黎巴嫩**政府讨论冲突的未来。但当然，**黎巴嫩**政府不能代表**真主党**发言，也没有人直接与**真主党**打交道和谈判。所以这似乎有点像一个**遮羞布**，只是为了看起来有什么事情正在发生，但没有人真正对此抱太大期望。鉴于所有这些问题都如此紧密地交织在一起，目前看来这确实非常难以解决。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Well, there's no easy path and you could see at the end of last week everyone sort of groping around trying to figure out how to sort of handle all of these thorny issues at once. There was an announcement that **Prime Minister Netanya** and the **Israeli** government would begin discussions with the **Lebanese** government about the future of the conflict. But of course, the **Lebanese** government is not speaking for **Hezbollah** and no one's dealing and negotiating directly with **Hezbollah**. So that appeared to be a little bit of a **fig leaf** to sort of appear something was happening where no one really expects much out of that. And given that all of these issues are so closely stitched together, it does seem like this is all very intractable at the moment.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 过去我们交谈时，你们都说过，尽管许多人认为**内塔尼亚胡**对**特朗普**有一定影响力，但你们明确表示**内塔尼亚胡**确实害怕**特朗普**。他确实屈从于**特朗普**的要求。那么，**特朗普**难道不能强迫**以色列**停止发动那些威胁停战的袭击吗？我想我的问题是，这里到底谁说了算？
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: When we've talked in the past, guys, you've both said that while a lot of people view **Netanyahu** as having a certain amount of sway over **Trump**, you've made it clear that **Netanyahu** does fear **Trump**. He does acquies to his demands. So, can't **Trump** force **Israel** to stop carrying out strikes that are threatening this truce? I guess my question is who is actually in charge here?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 毫无疑问。**内塔尼亚胡**总理在战争开始后大约三周的一次演讲中承认了这一点。起初他说我们是伙伴，是互惠互利的伙伴。然后他说在**特朗普**总统的领导下，他说了一些对**以色列国防军**的任何士兵、任何军官、任何将军都清楚的事情，那就是这场战争只有在**特朗普**说结束时才会结束。所以很清楚，如果**特朗普**总统决定某件事会发生并且对此非常严格，那么**以色列**总统不会与他公开对抗。不，这是他非常严格对待的事情之一。他不会。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: No doubt. **Prime Minister Netanyahu** acknowledged that in a speech I think 3 weeks after the beginning of the war. While at the beginning he said we are partners, mutual partners. Then he said under the leadership of **President Trump**, he said something that was clear to any soldier, any officer, any general in the **IDF** that this war will end only when **Trump** says it's over. So it's clear that if **President Trump** decides that something would happen and be very strict with that, the president of **Israel** would not go to overt confrontation with him. No, that's one of the things that he very strict with. He won't.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 是的，我们已经谈了很多关于**内塔尼亚胡**总理在说服**特朗普**总统对**伊朗**开战方面发挥了多么重要的作用，但最终，正如**罗南**所说，在这段关系中，**特朗普**在结束战争方面掌握着影响力，他可以告诉**内塔尼亚胡**战争何时结束。那么，我们是否应该基于此假设，**特朗普**实际上还没有使用那个最终的**杠杆**？
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Yeah, we've talked a lot about how instrumental **Prime Minister Netanyahu** was in convincing **President Trump** to go to the war against **Iran**, but ultimately, as **Ronin** said, in this relationship, **Trump** holds the **leverage** in ending it and he can tell **Netanyahu** when the war will end. So, should we assume based on that that **Trump** has not actually pulled that ultimate **lever** yet?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 嗯，我认为**特朗普**可能还不清楚**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**是阻止与**伊朗**达成协议的首要症结所在。但**真主党**和**黎巴嫩**在战争是否结束的问题上变得越核心，我认为**美国**和**特朗普**就越会向**内塔尼亚胡**施压，要求其结束军事行动。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Well, I think it's not clear to **Trump** yet that **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon** are the number one sticking point preventing a deal with **Iran**. But the more **Hezbollah** and **Lebanon** become central to whether this war ends or not, the more I think the **United States** and **Trump** will lean on **Netanyahu** to end the campaign.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 我想最后我们回顾一下这场战争的开始，当时**特朗普**决定做一件以前没有**美国**总统同意过的事情，那就是与**以色列**联手对**伊朗**开战。我们现在面临的情况是，这两个共同卷入战争的国家是否真的在结束战争的问题上意见一致，尚不清楚。我只想问，这难道不是与一个不分享你长期目标的伙伴共同参战的必然结果吗？
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: I want to just end by taking us back to the beginning of this war when **Trump** decided to do something that no **American** president had ever agreed to before, which was teaming up with **Israel** to go to war with **Iran**. We're now in a situation where it's unclear whether the two countries that got into this war together are actually on the same page about getting out of it. And I just want to ask like is this just the inevitable result of getting into a joint war with a partner that doesn't share your long-term goals?
**罗南·伯格曼**: 我认为这部分是正确的。**特朗普**政府和**本杰明·内塔尼亚胡**在他们认为对**中东**安全重要的事情上有很多共同点。然而，一旦战争开始，事情就会失控。正如我们所看到的，**伊朗**的反应方式并非**美国**和**以色列**所希望的那样。**伊朗**没有表现出任何退缩的迹象。我认为**内塔尼亚胡**也有一种感觉，他不会再有这样的机会了。对**伊朗**开战几十年来一直是**内塔尼亚胡**的执念。现在他有了领导战争的**美国**总统。一旦战争结束，可能就不会再发生了。因此，他认为这是实现他在**中东**目标的最后最好机会。他将决心在实现他大部分愿望之前，什么都不会结束。这就是为什么**内塔尼亚胡**和他的团队及部长们在听到**伊斯兰堡**传来的谈判破裂的消息时，他们说：“哈，你看，这就是我们喜欢的**特朗普**总统，他不会放弃，他全力以赴，他们希望我们会回到战争中去。”
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: I think that's partly right. There are many things the **Trump** administration and **Benjamin Netanyahu** are aligned on in terms of what they see as important to the **security of the Middle East**. However, once a war begins, things go out of your control. And as we've seen, **Iran** has not responded the way that the **United States** and **Israel** had hoped it would. **Iran** has shown no sign that it is eager to back down. And I think there's also a sense for **Netanyahu** that he's not going to get another chance to do this. A war against **Iran** has been **Netanyahu's** obsession for decades. And now he's got the **United States** president leading the war. And once that ends, it's probably not happening again. And so he sees this as his last best chance to achieve these goals in the **Middle East**. And he's going to be determined that nothing ends before he gets most of what he wanted. Which is why **Netanyahu** and his team and ministers when hearing the announcement from **Islamabad** that negotiation fell apart. They said, "Huh, you see this is **President Trump** that we like that is not giving up that is going full force and they are hoping we'll go back to **Warso**."
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 所以这件事还在继续。好的，**马克**、**罗南**，非常感谢你们。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: And so this thing keeps going on. Well, **Mark** **Ronan**, thank you so much.
**马克·米塞蒂**: 谢谢，**艾丽**。
Original English
**Mark Misetti**: Thanks, **Ally**.
**罗南·伯格曼**: 谢谢，**内森**。
Original English
**Ronan Bergman**: Thanks, **Nathan**.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 星期天，**美国**军方表示，从星期一开始将封锁所有进出**伊朗**港口的船只，但会允许其他船只通过**霍尔木兹海峡**。此举是**特朗普**此前承诺封锁所有通过海峡的交通的一步退让。作为回应，**伊朗**议会发言人直接向**美国**消费者喊话，称：“很快你们就会怀念4到5美元的汽油了。”我们稍后回来。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: On Sunday, the **US** military said that it would blockade any ships entering and departing **Iranian** ports beginning Monday, but would allow other ships to pass through the **Straight of Hormuz**. The move was a step back from **Trump's** earlier promise to block all traffic through the straight. In response, the speaker of **Iran's** parliament directly addressed **American** consumers, saying, quote, "Soon you'll be nostalgic for four to$5 gas. We'll be right back.
### 其他新闻简报
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 这是今天您还需要知道的其他新闻。来自湾区的**民主党**国会议员**埃里克·斯瓦尔韦尔**周日表示，在性侵和不当行为指控后，他将暂停**加利福尼亚州**州长竞选活动。这些指控于周五由《**旧金山纪事报**》和**CNN**发表，并引发了一波撤销支持和刑事调查。**斯瓦尔韦尔**一再否认这些指控，并于周六在帖子中表示，他对“判断失误”感到抱歉，并承诺反击他所称的虚假指控。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: Here's what else you need to know today. **Eric Swallwell**, a **Democratic** congressman from the **Bay Area**, said on Sunday that he was suspending his campaign for **California** governor in the wake of allegations of sexual assault and misconduct. The accusations were published Friday in articles by the **San Francisco Chronicle** and **CNN** and they prompted a wave of rescended endorsements and a criminal investigation. **Swallwell** repeatedly denied the accusations and said in an ex post on Saturday that he was sorry for quote mistakes in judgment and promised to fight what he called false allegations.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 而匈牙利总理**维克托·奥尔班**，这位执政16年的右翼民粹主义者，周日承认他在该国大选中落败。**奥尔班**是**特朗普**总统的坚定盟友，副总统**J.D. 万斯**上周飞往**布达佩斯**为他助选。但**万斯**的出现并没有帮助**奥尔班**避免被中间偏右反对派以压倒性优势击败，该反对派由前**奥尔班**忠实拥护者**彼得·马贾尔**领导。**马贾尔**以**反腐**信息竞选，并承诺改善与**欧盟**的关系，而**欧盟**曾因**奥尔班**的**亲俄**立场而关系紧张。
Original English
**Natalie Kitroeff**: And **Victor Orban**, the right-wing populist who's been prime minister of **Hungary** for 16 years, conceded that he lost the country's general election on Sunday. **Orban** was such a staunch ally of **President Trump's** that **Vice President JD Vance** flew to **Budapest** last week to rally with him. But **Vance's** appearance didn't help **Orban** avert a landslide defeat to the center-right opposition, which is led by a former **Orban** loyalist, **Peter Majiar**. **Majiar** campaigned on an **anti-corruption** message and promised to improve relations with the **European Union**, which had been strained over **Orban's** **pro-Russia** stance.
**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**: 本集节目由**阿斯塔·查图维迪**、**迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊**和**米歇尔·邦贾**制作。由**蕾切尔·奎斯特**和**帕特里夏·威林斯**编辑，并包含**丹·鲍威尔**和**帕特·麦卡斯克**的音乐。我们的主题音乐由**Wonderly**创作。本集节目由**克里斯·伍德**制作。以上就是《**The Daily**》的全部内容。我是**娜塔莉·基特罗夫**。明天见。