--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-02' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYHj_lQDuH0 speaker: TVO Today tags: - sports-betting - gambling-addiction - behavioral-psychology - advertising-regulation - public-health title: 无孔不入的体育博彩：成瘾陷阱、隐性代价与广告监管风暴 summary: 本期《The Rundown》深入探讨体育博彩合法化与移动化浪潮下的社会危机。前电视主持人 Rick Campanelli 亲述深陷赌瘾致婚姻破裂、债务缠身并遭美国国土安全局扣押的惊险历程；反博彩广告倡导者 Robin Campbell 与心理学研究员 Nigel Turner 则从行为成瘾机制、算法诱导及公共健康危机切入，剖析针对年轻男性的营销套路，呼吁效仿烟草禁令推行全面的博彩广告禁令并强化庄家优势透明度。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Rick Campanelli - Nigel Turner - Robin Campbell companies_orgs: - TVO - MuchMusic - CAMH products_models: [] media_books: - Tempted status: evergreen --- ### 体育博彩的繁荣与隐秘代价 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 如果你还没亲眼在户外或屏幕上见过这些广告，大概也读过不少关于它们的争议报道。女演员**悉尼·斯威尼（Sydney Sweeney）**为某体育博彩网站全裸出镜代言；而在观看比赛转播时，你几乎不可能不看到演员**乔·哈姆（Jon Hamm）**主演的博彩广告。**体育博彩**如今已变得无孔不入，彻底渗透并编织进了体育赛事的观赛体验本身。 然而，一旦将视线穿透这些铺天盖地的光鲜广告，你就会看到截然不同的头条新闻：急诊室就诊人数显著上升、危机求助热线电话量激增，以及博彩带来的各种伤害，尤其是对年轻男性群体造成的严重打击。那么，当一种专门设计用来让你不断下注的机制，被包装成比赛中再自然不过的一部分进行兜售时，究竟会引发什么？现行的博彩广告监管规则，真的足以保护那些最易受到伤害的高危人群吗？ 首先，我们邀请到了娱乐记者**里克·坎帕内利（Rick Campanelli）**，请他来谈谈赌博成瘾所带来的沉重个人代价。我是乔安妮·贾甘纳森（Joanne Jaganathan），这里是《The Rundown》。《环球邮报》（The Globe and Mail）曾称里克·坎帕内利是一个“活生生的成功典范”。他在 1994 年赢得了 **MuchMusic** 主持人大赛后，成为了一名家喻户晓的电视主持人，并在娱乐产业开创了辉煌的事业。然而，当时没有任何人知道他内心深处正经历着怎样痛苦的挣扎。里克·坎帕内利，非常高兴你能来到我们的演播室。你最近怎么样？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: If you haven't seen the ads in person, you might have read some of the articles about them because they've caused a whole lot of controversy. Actress Sydney Sweeney baring it all for a sports betting site. And just try to watch a game without seeing actor Jon Hamm also starring in ads. Sports betting has become hard to miss. Woven into the experience of watching sports itself. But look beyond the ads and you'll find some very different headlines about ER visits on the rise. About a spike in helpline calls, and about other harms especially affecting young men. So what happens when something designed to keep you betting is also being sold as just another part of the game? And are the rules around gambling advertising doing enough to protect the people most at risk? But first, we talk to entertainment journalist Rick Campanelli about the personal toll of gambling can take. I'm Joanne Jaganathan and this is The Rundown. The Globe and Mail called Rick Campanelli a walking, talking success story. After winning a Muchmusic contest in 1994. He ended up becoming an on air personality and making a career in entertainment. But no one knew how much he was struggling. Rick Campanelli, great to have you in our rundown studios. How are you doing?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 我状态非常好，棒极了，真的。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: I'm doing great. Awesome. Yeah.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 我想先从你的新书里摘录的一段话开始。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: I want to start with an excerpt from your book.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 没问题。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Sure.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 书中写道：“片刻之后，我背着双肩背包，两名**美国国土安全局（Homeland Security）**官员紧紧夹在我的左右两侧，我们三个人大步穿过空无一人的机场航站楼。‘发生什么事了？’‘坎帕内利先生，我们只是在护送您。警察会把您需要知道的一切都解释清楚。’**麦卡伦国际机场（McCarran International Airport）**内的警局只是一个简陋的办公室，里面只有一名满脸倦容的警察坐在办公桌后。他显然一直在等我。而当我瘫坐在椅子上的那一瞬间，国土安全局官员便悄然退出了房间。克拉克县（Clark County）的警官随即开门见山地说：‘坎帕内利先生，您知道的，您欠了那些大人物一笔巨款。’他不需要再做任何多余的解释，我们彼此心里都清清楚楚他的意思。” 光是念出这段文字，我都感觉身上在冒冷汗。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: It reads: "Moments later, with a knapsack on my back and the two Homeland Security officers tightly flanked on either side of me, the three of us marched through the virtually empty airport terminal. What's going on? We're just escorting you, Mr. Campanelli. The police officer will tell you everything you need to know. The police station inside McCarran International Airport was a simple office manned by one weary police officer behind a desk. He was waiting for me, and the Homeland Security officer slipped out of the room as soon as I flopped onto a chair. The Clark County officer got down to business. You know, you owe these big boys a lot of money, Mr. Campanelli. He didn't need to explain anything more. We both knew exactly what he meant." I'm getting warm by you just reading that.
### 拉斯维加斯噩梦：国土安全局与筹码欠款 **里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 听起来简直就像电影情节一样，对吧？
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Reads like a movie.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 确实如此。我当时拿着这本书，心里就在想：“天呐。”你的自传《**Tempted**》彻底揭开了你深藏已久的严重赌瘾。大多数人过去根本不知道发生了什么，甚至不知道你会在因公前往拉斯维加斯出差刚下飞机落地时，就被美国国土安全局人员直接押送出机舱。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: I was holding onto the book, and I was like, oh, so your book, Tempted, reveals a gambling addiction. Most people didn't know about what happened that US Homeland Security has to escort you off a plane as you're landing in Las Vegas on a work trip.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 是的，你读的那段话立刻把我拉回到了那个惊心动魄的时刻。事情的起因是，在那次事件的几个月前，我去了一趟拉斯维加斯，原本是打算赢一笔钱带回家的。在赌场里有一种叫做“信用借据”（**Markers**）的东西，你可以向赌场借贷。你必须向赌场出具证明，证明你的银行账户里有足够的资金，他们确认后才会同意：“好，我们可以给你提供借据额度，看起来你的财务信用状况很良好。” 我当时确实财务状况良好，而我所有的赌博计划，都是为了筹齐首付款，去买一套我急需入住的新公寓。现在回头看，我这是在强行跳过漫长的过程走捷径。总而言之，乔安妮，我最终没能按期把钱还给那些赌场。随着日子和周数一天天过去，我当时只能一点一点地零星偿还。 但那位警官说得完全没错：那些赌场巨头一旦想要收回他们的钱，就绝不会跟你开玩笑，他们绝不会手软。可能有人会想：“你为什么不立刻把钱全还上呢？”在那个时候，我生活中发生了许多错综复杂的事情。当你对某种事物彻底上瘾时——正如我对赌博的那种病态痴迷——你的眼前就像被戴上了马眼罩，视野狭窄得可怕。你在现实生活中完全失控，脑子里唯一的念头就是赌博，妄想着靠赌博赚更多的钱来翻本，但实际上你正在输掉难以计数的大笔金钱。**庄家永远是最后的赢家**（The house always wins）。 因为我没能按时还清借款，只是东拼西凑零敲碎打地还一点，所以当我为了公司公干再次飞往拉斯维加斯时——那是参加电影《宿醉》（The Hangover）的 DVD 发行派对任务——瞧，我现在能笑着谈论这件事了，因为毕竟是很多年前的事了。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Yeah, you brought me right back to that moment. So months prior to that, I went down to Vegas to bring some money back home with me. And there were markers that you that you loan from, from casinos. You have to prove that you have enough money in your bank account for them to say, yeah, okay, we'll give you a marker. You look like you're in good standing financially. And I was at the time, it was all a plan to put money down on a new condo that I needed to move in. Now we're. I'm really fast forwarding along here. Yeah. But long story short, John, I didn't pay these casinos back in time. I was paying them off a little bit by little bit as as the days and weeks went by. But he was right. These big boys, when they want their money, they want their money. They don't fool around. And it's some maybe thinking to themselves, why didn't you pay them all back right away? There was a number of things that were going on at the time, like when you're addicted to something like as I was with gambling, you got the the blinders on. You're going through life out of control. You're just you want to gamble. You want to try to make more money and you're losing a lot of money. The house always wins. I didn't pay them back on time. I've been paying them back a little bit here, a little bit there. So I was going down to Las Vegas for a company trip, a work trip, an assignment for for a DVD release party for the the Hangover, the hangover. See, I can laugh now because this happened years ago.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 完全可以理解，这就是为什么你现在能付之一笑。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Fair enough. That's why I laugh now about it.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 是的。而且当时我现在的妻子安吉（Angie）——那时候她还是我的女朋友——就陪伴在我身边，而她对整件事背后的暗流完全一无所知。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: But yeah. And my then, well, my wife Angie, she was then my girlfriend. She was right by my side and. And she had no clue what was going on.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 那一次你总共被关押了多久？大概是 36 个小时？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: In total, you spent, what, 36 hours?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 是的，在克拉克县拘留中心（Clark County Detention Centre）整整待了 36 个小时。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Yeah. In the Clark County Detention centre.
### 赌瘾起源：从无害抽奖到高利地下博彩 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 好，让我们在这里梳理一下历史脉络。请带我们回到最开始的时候，作为一个在安大略省哈密尔顿（Hamilton）长大的小男孩，你是如何逐渐养成这种行为习惯的？这里指的还不一定是后来的成瘾状态，而是最初参与赌博性活动的习惯。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Okay, let's let's do a little history lesson here. Take us a little bit back to the beginning here as a as a boy who grew up in Hamilton. How did you develop sort of the habit? Not necessarily the addiction here, but the habit of gambling.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 这确实是一种习惯。我小时候极度热衷于参加各种抽奖竞赛，爱到了痴迷的地步。只要看到比赛或抽奖活动，我必然会去参加。你可能会想：“天底下谁真能老中奖啊？”可事实是，我真能赢。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: It's a habit. I loved entering contests. I loved it. I every contest I saw, I entered it and you may think, well, who wins contests? Well, I won.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 赢过一次……
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: One a.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 赢过一次超级大奖。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Big one.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 赢了个大奖。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: I won.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 是的，一个大奖。在此之前，我更是一次又一次、接二连三地赢得了无数次小型竞赛。而这恰恰就是一切问题的祸根所在：我潜意识里坚信自己是不可能输的。 要知道，最初那些只是微不足道的竞赛，比如儿童填色比赛。你小心翼翼地涂色，努力不让线条出框。那本是纯真无邪的涂色游戏，奖品可能就是一个毛绒玩具；或者是一些只要填写选票投进抽奖箱就能参与的随机抽奖。但我就是不停地赢，我深深迷恋上了那种赢奖带来的**狂喜冲击（Rush）**，那种**多巴胺激增（Dopamine hit）**的感觉，不管你怎么称呼它，反正我极度沉醉于此。 对我来说，奖品究竟是什么其实根本无关紧要。重点是：既然我参加了这个竞赛，我就必须成为赢家。这种心态在极其幼小的年纪就深深扎根了，当时我还是个孩子。我认为我后来的一切问题都源于此。 随后，到了 90 年代初，安大略彩票局（OLG，当时称作 OLC）推出了 **Sport Select Pro-Line** 体育竞猜彩票。那时我正在上大学，狂热地喜欢看球赛。我是体育教育专业的毕业生，自己打球，也热衷于观赛。而现在，你只要在某支球队上下注 2 美元，赢了就能翻倍变成 5 美元或 10 美元。随着你赢的次数越来越多，你投入的赌注也就水涨船高。我深陷其中的过程就是这样一步步发生的，情况也变得越来越糟糕、越来越不可收拾。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: A big one. I won multiple contests over and over and over again. And that was the problem right there. I thought I couldn't lose, and these are just contests. Colouring contests. You know you're trying to stay in the lines. It's an innocent colouring contest to win like a stuffy or random contest where you just fill out a ballot and you drop it in the ballot box. I kept winning, and I liked that rush, that dopamine hit or whatever you want to call it. I loved it. I really, it didn't really matter what the prize was either. Like, I'm entering this contest. I want to be the winner. So and that started at a young age. I was a kid. So I think that's where it all stems from. And then of course, OLG, which was OLC at the time, launches Sport Select Pro line in the early 90s and I'm in university, loved watching sports. I'm a phys ed grad, I played sports, I watch sports, but now you can put $2 on this team and double your money for $5 or $10. The more you win, the more you increase your bets. So that's how it all all happened for me. And it got worse and worse.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 那么，局面是在什么时候彻底失控的？你刚才提到了最初的 2 美元，但随后的金额开始疯狂膨胀：100 美元、200 美元，到后来你竟然从一家赌场借款 10,000 美元，甚至四家赌场借款总额高达 40,000 美元。从何时起，你开始切身感受到这一切已经超出了你的掌控？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Well, when when did it get to a point where you're talking? You're saying $2, but these numbers you're talking about started to grow 100, 200. You're here taking a loan essentially from a casino for 10,000. For casino, for for casinos, for 40,000. When did it start to feel like this was out of your control?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 在最初的那段日子里我频频赢钱，这让我产生了一种狂妄的错觉，以为自己已经彻底参透了这门学问。我以为自己已经把这个博彩市场彻底掌控在手心，绑上了漂亮的蝴蝶结装进了盒子里；我觉得自己对所有问题都了如指掌，并且确实连续赢钱。你知道的，当你赢了钱，欲望就会驱使你赢更多。于是你开始在每一次下注中押上更多筹码，我当时就是这么干的。 但在早期那种官方投注方式下，系统是有最高下注限额限制的，下注额到顶就不能再加了。现在回想起来，那种制度性限制是非常好的保护机制。然而当时的我贪欲膨胀，想要追求更多刺激和收益。 就在那时，我被引荐给了我的第一个**地下庄家（Bookie）**。地下赌球庄家的运作机制与官方合法的 OLC 截然相反：你想押多少钱就押多少钱，他们完全不设上限，他们根本不在乎你的赌资有多大，因为庄家们心里比谁都清楚，从长远来看，你迟早要把所有的本金和输掉的巨额现金奉还给他们。 我的第一笔超大额下注——金额高达数千美元——偏偏在那一次，我又赢了。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: I was I was winning early in those days, and I thought I had this. I thought I had this market, you know, wrapped up in a nice bow and box. And I knew all the answers to all the questions. And I just kept winning. And, you know, when you win, okay, well, you want to win more. So you start putting more on your bets. And that's what I was doing. So, but but at the time, that way of doing it, there was a maximum bet that you can put down. And that was it, which was great. The restrictions were fantastic, but I wanted more. So then I get introduced to my first bookie and bookies total opposite from the way they're doing it legally with OLC, you can bet as much money as you want. They don't care because they know in the long run you're going to be owing them that money, that cash. So, and for my first big bet, like I'm talking into the thousands of dollars, I had to win that one too.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 毫无意外。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Of course.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 如果我当时输掉了那场开门大赌注，也许整个人生故事就会彻底改写，我今天也就不会坐在这里写这本书了。但正是那些偶尔的重大胜利，像毒药一样吊着你继续陷下去。随后，即便你遭遇了连续几次惨败，你的潜意识深处依旧会盲目盲信：“胜利马上就会降临在下一个转角，下一次我肯定能赢回来。”
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: If I had lost that one, maybe it could be a different story. It wouldn't be right in this book. But you know, those winds that they keep, they keep you going. And then when you're losing a few times in a row too, you're having in the back of your mind, well, the wind is just around, the wind is just around the corner. It's coming, you know.
### 双面人生：镜头前的光鲜与深渊中的绝望 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 你究竟是如何将自己严重的赌瘾掩盖得滴水不漏的？当时完全没有任何人察觉。你可是活跃在荧幕上的明星，先后在 **MuchMusic** 和 **ET Canada** 担任重量级主持人。你如何在镜头前展现无懈可击的专业形象，同时又在幕后承受如此可怕的精神与财务重压？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: How do you keep, how did you keep your addiction hidden? No one knew. No one. Knew you. Here you are. You're on Muchmusic. You're on ET. Canada. How did you manage to do that? On camera and then deal with this in the background?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 我骨子里一直是一个非常乐观外向的人。无论面对生活中的任何事情，我都习惯倾注我所有的精力和热情，无论是对待我的事业、我的家庭，还是这件纠缠了我多年的严重困扰。因此我很清楚，在肉体外貌上，外人是根本无法察觉我正在经历什么精神折磨的。 显然，那段时期伴随着巨大的心理压力，特别是当你到了周末结算日欠了地下庄家巨额赌债的时候。但我从来不会在外表上显露出一丝慌乱。赌博成瘾这种问题最隐蔽的地方在于，除非一个人一周 7 天、每天 24 小时被别人亲眼堵在赌场里，否则你几乎无法从外表判断他是否深陷赌博泥潭。 而我并不是那种成天泡在赌场里的人。我只是偶尔独自一人去赌场，或者利用出差的间隙悄悄溜进赌场下注。没有任何人知道我的行踪，我所做的一切都是独来独往，从不带任何同行者。因此，在当时要向外界隐瞒这一切是极其容易的。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: I've been I've always been a positive guy. Always put everything into whatever I do in life, whether it's my career, my family, this this issue that I had for years. So I knew people weren't going to be able to tell physically what I was going through. It was a lot of stress, obviously, you know, especially if you're owing these bookies a lot of money at the end of the week. But I wasn't showing that. So it's hard to tell that someone's going through a gambling addiction unless you're seeing them at a casino 24 over seven. And that wasn't me. I was going to casinos here and there by myself. I was going to visit casinos when I was on work trips. Nobody knew I was doing everything on my own, wasn't bringing anyone with me. So it was easy to hide. It.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 正如我刚才提到的，绝大多数公众之前对这段往事一无所知。我很想知道，你为什么选择在当下这个时间节点把这个故事公之于众？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: As I mentioned, a lot of people didn't know this story. I'm curious why tell this story now?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 因为如今整个**线上博彩（Online gambling）**世界的野蛮生长已经彻底陷入失控。这是一个规模高达千亿美元级别的庞大产业——仅去年一年的规模就突破了 1000 亿美元，而且预计在未来五年内还将翻倍。这些博彩巨头不会从我们的生活中消失，这种趋势令人毛骨悚然。 它实在太容易触及了。在我的青少年时期和二十岁出头时，赌博在客观上还存在不少阻碍和不便：你必须亲自前往某个实体网点，必须手动填涂投注单，或者必须专门开车去跟地下庄家碰头；你必须给庄家送现金，或者由他亲自把赢来的现金交到你手上。 而现在的世界呢？每个人口袋里都揣着智能手机，每个人都拥有一台联网设备。你只需要下载一个应用程序，绑定你的信用卡，仅仅几分钟之内，你的银行账户余额就可能被彻底洗劫一空，归零变成负数。 这一切门槛太低、太容易发生了。我认为年轻一代对这种潜伏的巨大危险根本毫无防备。因为一旦你跌入博彩的世界并丧失了自控力，你就会真正体会到什么叫彻底失控，它足以彻底摧毁你的一切——你的职业前途、你的人生幸福与家庭。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Well, this whole world of online gambling is getting out of control. It's a it's a triple billion digit dollar industry, like $100 billion last year. It's going to double within five years. These guys aren't going anywhere. It's scary. It's scary. It's so accessible. When I was a teenager in my early 20s, it was a little more inconvenient. You know, you had to physically go somewhere. You had to fill out a ballot for your ticket. You had to go meet up with a bookie. You had to bring the bookie money, or he had to bring you your money that you won. Everyone has a cell phone. Everyone has a device. You just download the app, insert your credit card, and your bank account could be drained to zero in a matter of minutes. It's too easy. And I don't think the younger generation, I don't think they're prepared for this because when you lose control in this world of gambling, you really lose control and you can ruin everything. Your career, your life.
### 付出代价：婚姻破裂与六分之一年薪的单场豪赌 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 你刚才生动地描绘了那种落差——过去你必须开车穿过市区，在某个偏僻破旧商场的阴暗后门停车场里与地下庄家碰面交割。请帮我们进一步了解，这给你的个人生活究竟带来了怎样毁灭性的打击？在这段惨痛的历程中，你付出了哪些实质性的代价？虽然你现在已经走出了阴霾、迎来了新生活，但当时到底造成了哪些伤害？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Well, you talk a little bit about sort of the difference, you know, driving to meet your bookie, to pay them, you know, at some sketch mall in a back parking lot. Help me understand a little bit about the damage this did to your life. There were some casualties, essentially in this in this journey. Yeah. And you know, we're on the other side of that now. But what damage did. We do?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 实质上，我认为我的第一段婚姻之所以走向破裂，最核心的原因就是因为我深深陷入了赌瘾，整个人在那个时期完全处于失控状态。当然，第一段婚姻中不可否认还存在其他复杂的矛盾因素，但我深信，如果当时我能把心思和专注力放在经营婚姻上，我绝不会走到分居和离婚的境地。 婚姻破裂的根源完全在于赌博，因为赌博成了我脑海中唯一想做的事，也是我实际在做的全部事情。除此之外，生活层面也陷入了严重的财务危机，比如长年处于“月光族”的窘境。每一次薪水刚一打进银行账户，下一秒你就想把全部收入一股脑全押在一场体育博彩上。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Well, essentially, I think my first marriage broke down because I was so addicted to gambling and I was out of control at the time. Sure. There were other factors in that first marriage, but I think if I was focussed on my marriage, I wouldn't be running into problems of separation and divorce. But it was due to the gambling because that's all I wanted to do and that's all I was doing. Other things like, you know, living paycheque to paycheque was happening. Like as soon as you get paid, you want to spend all that money on a, on a sports bet.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 我们谈论的是你甚至把年薪的五分之一直接押了上去？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: We're talking a fifth of your yearly salary or whatever that.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 我刚才提到的那个开门故事是我深陷其中最疯狂的一次。那是在我职业生涯的早期阶段，我把整整**六分之一的年薪**孤注一掷押在了单场比赛上！因为到了那个阶段，我甚至聘请了一位所谓的“博彩顾问”（Gambling consultant），专门由他指导我该把钱押在谁身上。 那是我踏入的一个极其阴暗可怕的地下世界。我首先必须付给那个家伙一大笔咨询费来换取他的所谓“内部推荐名单”，然后紧接着把他指令让我下注的比赛，倾家荡产凑足我能拿出来的所有积蓄全部押上去。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: That first story was the biggest that I had gotten into it. And that was early in my career, a sixth of my salary. I put on one game because now at that point, I was able to get a gambling consultant who was telling me who to put my money on. So that was very it was a very sketchy world that I had entered. You know, I first paid this guy a lot of money for his his picks, basically. And then I was putting as much money as I could put together on these games that he was telling me to gamble on.
### 年轻人危机与父亲的告诫 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 你提到了对当今现代博彩模式及其极高可及性的极度担忧。年轻男性和青少年男孩尤其脆弱，极易沦为这种机制的受害者。我们如今看到的体育赛事直播，中场休息节目已经完全变了味，不再是过去的战术复盘，全都在充斥着各种赔率分析和下注推介。与此同时，你家里有两个年幼的儿子。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: You talked about sort of the concerns that you have with sort of modern day gambling and sort of the access to it. Men and boys are especially susceptible. We see the ads every half time show is not what it used to be. It is about odds and and all of that. You also have two young sons.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 是的，还有两个小儿子。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: Young ones. Yeah, yeah.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 鉴于你所经历过的这一切惨痛教训，你会给他们什么核心建议，来帮助他们应对这个充斥着博彩诱惑的全新世界？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: What's one piece of advice that you give them to sort of navigate this new world, knowing with what you've gone through?
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 我看到很多人进入博彩世界纯粹是为了寻找娱乐。确实有些人具备强大的自控力和钢铁般的意志力，他们去赌场只会随身带 20 美元，一旦这 20 美元输光了，他们立刻起身离开，绝不多留。世界上确实存在这种人，而且数量还不少。 但硬币的另一面是截然相反的情形：你输了 20 美元，转头就走向自动取款机再提 20 美元；哦，又输光了？那这次干脆直接取 100 美元！这是两种截然不同的人性极端。 我和我的妻子始终教育我们的孩子们，无论做什么事情都要带着基本的常识和理智，凡事必须有节制、适可而止。当然，等到他们长大成人后的某一天，他们也许会出于好奇涉足其中并亲自探索一番，但我们绝对不希望他们在那个世界里丧失理智和自控力。 这里我想简要谈谈我的大儿子，他现在正好到了我当年开始深陷赌瘾时的年纪。那是在我进入 MuchMusic 之前的人生阶段。我对他会感到担忧吗？完全不会。因为我随时随地都在跟他坦诚交流博彩背后那些令人毛骨悚然的黑暗面，他的头脑非常清醒且成熟。 等到我的两个小儿子再长大一些，我也同样会跟他们展开这样深度的对话。当然不是现在，他们现在年纪还太小，理解不了其中的残酷细节，但他们已经大概明白爸爸这本书讲述的是什么，他们明白生活中有很多人正在同各种成瘾顽疾搏斗，在艰难的生活困境中苦苦挣扎。 是的，我选在现在出版这本自传，就是为了给那些可能在未来某一天面临失控风险的人敲响一记沉重的警钟。我只想用自己的血泪教训给人们带来足够的警惕，让他们看清如果你在那个世界——或者在任何成瘾的世界里——一旦失去控制，等待你的将是怎样万劫不复的深渊。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: I see a lot of people get into this gambling world for entertainment. You know, people are able to control. Control it and they have willpower. They'll go with $20 into a casino. When once that $20 is done, they walk out. There are people like that. There are a lot of people like that. But then there's the opposite. You lose 20, you go to the bank machine, you grab another 20. Oh, you lost that. Let's get 100. This time. It's two total different extremes. My wife and I have taught our boys to to go into everything with common sense. You know, everything in moderation. Sure, they may delve into this one day and explore for themselves, but we just don't want them to lose control in this world. My older son, who I'm going to speak briefly about, he's he was he's my age now. He's the age. He's the age now that I was when I was getting really into it. And this is before the Muchmusic years. It even started. So. And is there a concern there? No, because I talk to him all the time about the scary, the dark side of it all. So he's got a pretty good head on his shoulders. I'm going to have these same conversations with my two younger boys. Obviously not. Now. They're too young to know the details of this, but they know in the general sense what this book is all about. And they know that people struggle with addiction and struggle with hardships in life. Yes, this book is is put out now as a cautionary tale to those who, who, who think one day they may lose control. And, and I just want to scare people away from what could happen if you do lose control in that world, in any of those worlds of addiction.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 里克，我非常感激你的坦诚和勇敢分享。非常感谢你能做客《The Rundown》。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Rick, I appreciate you being honest and sharing your story. I want to thank you so much for coming on The Rundown.
**里克·坎帕内利 (Rick Campanelli)**: 能来到这里是我的荣幸，非常感谢你，乔安妮。
Original English **Rick Campanelli**: My pleasure to be here. Thanks, John.
### 成瘾心理学与公共健康危机 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 显然，早在博彩合法化以及移动互联网普及之前，病态赌博问题就已经客观存在。但时至今日，这个问题似乎被注入了超级推进剂。你可以在短短几秒钟内通过手机完成一次下注；而只要你收看任何体育比赛，你就会被铺天盖地的广告反复轰炸，不断诱导你掏钱参赌。 一些立法领导人已经敏锐地注意到了这一危局。例如，加拿大联邦议会提出了一项法案草案，旨在建立一个国家级监管框架，专门规管体育博彩广告，并设定全国统一的标准以防范潜在风险。那么，这是否真的有助于遏制赌博成瘾？我们又该如何察觉身边的亲友是否正处于泥潭挣扎之中？ 今天演播室请到了**罗宾·坎贝尔（Robin Campbell）**和**奈杰尔·特纳（Nigel Turner）**，非常欢迎两位做客《The Rundown》。你们最近可好？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Obviously, even before legalisation and the internet, there was problem gambling. But now it seems supercharged. You can bet in seconds from your phone. And if you watch sports, you're repeatedly exposed to advertising, encouraging you to do it. And some leaders are taking notice. For example, a proposed federal bill would lead to the development of a national framework to regulate sports betting advertising in Canada and set national standards for prevention of risk. So would that help combat addiction? And how do you know if someone is struggling? Robin Campbell, Nigel Turner, great to have you on the rundown. How are you doing?
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 我们非常好，十分感谢。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Very well, thank you.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 好的。奈杰尔，我先向你提问。作为**成瘾与心理健康中心（CAMH）**的研究员，你长年深入研究赌博的心理学机制。对于如今任何人都能轻而易举地通过手机在体育、娱乐乃至政治竞选上随时随地押注，最让你感到忧虑的核心问题是什么？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: By. All right. Well Nigel, I'm coming to you. You as a researcher at Chem-h, have studied the psychology of gambling. What concerns you about being able to bet on sports, entertainment, politics from the ease of your phone?
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 成瘾形成最核心的驱动因素之一就是**可及性（Availability）**。获取赌博机会的门槛越低、路径越便捷，人们卷入这种行为的可能性就越高。而且从神经生物学角度看，赌博是一种具有极强即时奖励机制的行为——至少在你赢钱的那一刻，它是具有强烈奖赏性的。 我们人类大脑的演化结构天生就严重偏向奖励刺激，对负面结果的敏感度则不成比例地迟钝。这就导致我们极易对某些事物形成病态成瘾，即便赢钱在统计学上只是极罕见的偶然例外，而输钱才是常态，大脑依然会深陷于对偶尔奖励的渴求中无法自拔。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Well, one of the driving factors of an addiction is availability. The easier it is to access gambling opportunities, the more likely people are going to engage in that behaviour. And it's a very rewarding behaviour. At least when you win, it's rewarding. And our our brain is set up to favour rewards over negative outcomes disproportionately so that we can get addicted to things even if they are. Even if the winning is the exception, not the norm.
### 反思烟草禁令：博彩广告的泛滥与常态化陷阱 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 罗宾，你参与创立了一个名为“禁止博彩广告”（**Ban Ads for Gambling**）的倡倡议组织。许多人将你们当前的诉求与当年全面推动**取缔烟草广告**的社会运动相提并论。这两者之间是否存在本质上的相似性？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Robin, you are part of a group called Ban Ads for gambling. Some people are making the connection here to the push to ban tobacco ads. And what your group is doing. Are there similarities there?
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 毫无疑问，两者存在极高的相似性。我们之所以将矛头完全聚焦在广告营销上，是因为历史经验已经充分证明，全面禁止广告是扭转局面的最具决定性手段之一，当年对烟草行业的治理正是采取了这一举措。 社会大众花了极其漫长的时间才认清烟草问题的本质，并终于意识到烟草的高成瘾性及其对身体健康的毁灭性伤害已经演变成了一场严重的**公共健康危机（Public health crisis）**。而现在，同样的悲剧正在以极其迅猛的加速度在博彩领域全盘重演。 我们正在面临一场深刻的公共健康危机，而这场危机正是由大规模广告推波助澜造成的。它被彻底“常态化”（Normalized）了。正如奈杰尔刚才谈到产品的可及性，过去香烟曾经随处可得，而如今各大博彩软件更是唾手可得；经过这些无孔不入的商业广告日夜轰炸包装，参赌行为在社会文化心理层面被彻底正常化了。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: There absolutely are. And we focussed on advertising because that is shown to be one of the things that can be most impactful if you ban the advertising for it, which they did for tobacco. It took them a long time to come to that, and it took them realising that they were having a public health crisis. With tobacco and its addictive nature and the harm to the to the health. Well, the same thing is happening in rapid time with with the gambling. We've got a public health crisis and it's been promoted with the advertising. It's been normalised when when Nigel talks about the availability of the the product, cigarettes were very available and the gambling apps, it's very available and it's been normalised by the the advertisements.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 当我们分析受众人群画像时，这些博彩广告究竟是在精准定向推送给哪些群体？是有特定的目标人群，还是广泛覆盖？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: When we talk about demographics, who these ads are being targeted to, is it a specific cohort here or is there a group here?
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 我们深信，自从加拿大刑法典修正案通过、正式允许对单项体育赛事进行投注以来，体育博彩及其广告在第一时间就精准锁定了**年轻男性群体（Young men）**。这迅速引起了他们的强烈兴趣，因为这被包装成了一种充满乐趣的社交游戏。 但现在的走向已经彻底变了——而且我认为这从一开始就是博彩资本预设的深层商业策略，我也亲耳听过博彩行业内部人士对此直言不讳：先用体育广告和体育博彩把这群年轻男孩牢牢套住，因为年轻男性天生热爱体育运动；而一旦他们在这个生态里上了瘾，博彩平台就会顺理成章地将他们诱导转向利润率更高、更容易倾家荡产的**线上赌场与网络老虎机（Online casino gambling）**。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Well, we we believe that they started with as soon as as soon as the criminal code was changed and single event sports betting was allowed, sports betting and the ads grabbed particularly young men. Right. And it really attracted them. It was lots of fun. And it's now moved to. And I think this was the original strategy. And I've heard people from the gambling industry talk about this, grab them with the sports ads and the sports betting, because young men, boys love sports. And once you get them hooked on that, move to online casino gambling.
### 数字原住民的沉迷：未成年绕过防线与家长责任 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 奈杰尔，这种极度便利的手机投注，是如何一步步演变成一种病态行为习惯的？在很多场景下，人们无论是在日常工作岗位上，还是在任何生活场景中，都会强迫性地不断掏出手机下注，或者疯狂刷新查看自己究竟是赢是输。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Nigel, how does the ease of betting turn into a habit where this is something where, you know, you are constantly checking your phone, whether it's at work or wherever it is, just constantly looking to to place a bet or see what if you're a winner or not.
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 年轻一代是彻头彻尾的数字原住民，他们完全适应了数字时代的生活方式，习惯于在网络上处理一切事务。博彩资本正是通过大力推广网络博彩和移动应用程序，完美地切合了年轻成年人的数字文化心理。相比之下，像我这样的年长群体对数字技术的敏感度没有那么高，因此沉迷于这种移动端下注模式的可能性要低得多。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Well, young people are very much attuned to the digital age and doing everything online. And so by pushing gambling and online gambling, this is fits in well with the cultural, the culture of younger adults. Whereas older people like myself aren't as as digitally savvy. So we're, we're less likely to do that.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 你刚才提到了年轻一代精通数字技术。这让我非常好奇：很多未成年青少年是否也能够轻易找到规避现有年龄审核限制的漏洞？面对这种情况，广大家长应该采取哪些行动来尽早识别孩子身上的成瘾征兆？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Now, you mentioned, you know, younger people being a bit savvy. I am curious, underage youth finding ways to get around some of these restrictions as well. What should parents be doing to sort of look for symptoms of addiction?
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 首先，家长必须严格保护好自己的账户密码，绝不能让孩子知道。如果你自己平时参与网络博彩，绝对不要向孩子透露凭据；其次，要密切关注和监督他们的日常上网行为和活动轨迹。 因为现实中存在着大量游离于监管之外的**灰产博彩网站（Grey market sites）**，这些平台根本不会对用户的真实年龄进行严格审核。家长必须严格确保孩子不会在国内合法网站或这些离岸灰产网站上注册个人账户，因为一旦接触，孩子们会在这些平台上迅速挥霍掉巨额资金，输得倾家荡产——因为这些博彩产品在数学和机制设计上的唯一根本目的，就是为了疯狂敛财。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Well, make sure you don't let your kids know your passwords. If you're going to gamble online, don't share them and monitor their their behaviour. Monitor any any activity in going online because there are grey market sites that don't scrutinise the age restrictions as well. Make sure they're they're not going they're not setting up accounts on, on these on either domestic or these grey market websites because they will spend a lot of money and lose a lot of money on these sites. It's that's actually the design of them is to make money.
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 顺着奈杰尔的话，关于家长究竟应该做什么，我认为除了日常行为监管之外，家长必须主动坐下来，同孩子们就赌博成瘾的问题进行极其坦率、开诚布公的面对面沟通。 此外，我认为我们必须从幼年阶段开始，在学校教育体系中全面设立相关的风险防范教育课程，而这种制度化教育目前几乎是一片空白。这也是我们组织正在重点推进的另一个领域——我们团队中有许多专业教育工作者，向学生深入普及博彩危害教育正是我们极为渴望深耕的核心方向。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: I think just picking up on that and what parents should do, in addition to monitoring, I think they've got to talk to their kids about this, this issue and be very frank and upfront with them about it. And I think we need to have an educational program in the schools starting quite young, and that really doesn't exist now. That's another area in our group. We have a number of educators, and that is a whole area that we really want to look into is education about this problem.
### 监管与误区：赌徒谬误与 S-211 法案的局限 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 我想提出一点质疑和探讨：我们今天之所以能在此深入讨论这个话题，正是因为大街小巷都能看到这些博彩广告。这让我产生了一个疑问：如果全面禁止博彩广告，会不会造成一种“问题已经彻底解决”的虚假安全感？在某种程度上，这是否反而会将那些深陷赌瘾的人进一步推向无声的隐蔽阴影中，导致真实的救助需求更加无法被社会所察觉和解决？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Can I push back a little bit? Because we're having this conversation because we're seeing these ads. And I am curious, could banning gambling ads create a false sense that the problem is solved and in in some ways, pushing people with addiction to gambling sort of into the shadows where, you know, we're not addressing these concerns.
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 如果我们在法律上禁止了商业博彩产品的广告推广，那么配套的就必须是开展大规模的公共防范公益教育广告，让人们能够极易找到求助途径，并在社会文化上营造一种宽容氛围，让深陷赌博危机的人寻求专业心理救助不再感到羞耻。因此，必须有专门针对成瘾机制的公共科普宣传。 必须让公众从科学层面真正明白博彩游戏是如何让人上瘾的。绝大多数普通人对此根本一无所知，他们完全不明白正是那种**偶发奖励机制（Reward schedule）**在大脑中催生了根深蒂固的病态习惯。一旦这种习惯在大脑回路中牢固确立，即使面临再惨重的连续亏损也极难戒断。 因为绝大多数玩家对自己获胜的概率存在极其扭曲的认知误区：他们往往陷入所谓的**赌徒谬误（Gambler's fallacy）**，愚蠢地以为如果自己已经连续输了很多把，那么下一次就“该轮到自己赢了”。在严格的概率统计学面前，你永远都不存在“该轮到你赢”这种事。底层的数学原理极为残酷且简单：**所有的博彩游戏从算法底层设计开始，目的就是为了让博彩公司稳赚暴利，绝不是为了让玩家赚钱**。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Well, if you ban the promotion of the products, there also has to be an educational advertising about this and making it easier to find help, making it more acceptable for people to seek help in this area. So I think there needs to be sort of public education about that, that kind of advertising. And public education about how games can be addictive, how gambling is addictive because a lot of people don't understand that, you know, and they, they don't understand that it's the reward that creates the habit. And even though and that habit, once it's established, can be resistant to a lot of losses, because most people have a distorted understanding of their chances, they think that if they've been losing while they're due to win, you never do to win. That's the simple math is the games are designed to make profit for the company, not for the player.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 接下来我想谈谈**参议院 S-211 法案（Bill S-211）**，该法案全称为《国家体育博彩广告框架法案》（The National Framework on Sports Betting Advertising Act）。你们对该法案的推进抱有怎样的具体成果预期？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: All right. I want to talk about Bill S 211. This is titled The National Framework on Sports Betting Advertising Act. What are you hoping will result result rather from that bill.
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 如果该法案能够顺利通过——据我了解，目前各党派之间对该法案存在相当广泛的立法共识。法案一旦通过，被指派负责此项工作的委员会将拥有为期一年的法定时间，去制定出一套专门监管博彩广告的国家框架。 但这充其量只是迈出的不错的第一步。我们组织的核心诉求显然是推动全面的**彻底封禁（Absolute ban）**，而绝不仅仅是微调监管规则。在监管模式下，你可能会规定“这里可以放一条广告，那里可以播一条广告”，但我们呼吁的是效仿对**烟草和娱乐性大麻**的严格禁令，实施全面彻底的广告封杀。 然而，S-211 法案存在一个致命缺陷：它仅仅针对“体育博彩广告”。在法案起草最初，公众的视线被铺天盖地的体育赛事押注广告完全吸引，因此当时立法聚焦于此。但正如我们后来深入研究所发现的，也是我刚才强调过的，博彩行业当前的危害早已远远超出了体育下注本身，真正的利润大头和沉迷黑洞是**网络在线赌场**。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Well it would if passed. And I think there is broad support in in against among all parties for for the bill. And what it would do is then if passed, there would then be a year, I understand, for the committee who's tasked with this to come up with a framework for regulating the advertising. But I would say a problem, and that would be a good first step. We'd obviously be advocating for a ban, not just regulating them. You know, you can have an ad here, you can have an ad there, but an absolute ban, on LA tobacco and cannabis. Okay, that kind of ban. But the problem is Bill S 211 addresses only sports betting ads. And I think it it started when that was what the public attention was on that being deluged with with sports betting ads. And as we've learned and as I mentioned before, it's not just sports betting that's going on. It's it's online casino.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 事实上，在因网络赌博问题拨打危机热线的求助求救电话中，有大约 **70%** 的呼救根本不是因为体育博彩，而是因为网络赌场和电子老虎机游戏。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: In fact, the, the bulk about 70% of helpline calls related to gambling, online gambling are for not not for sports. They're for casino games and slot machine games.
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 没错，完全正确！所以虽然我不确定在立法的程序操作上难度有多大，但我们强烈希望能够对该法案提出修正案，进一步拓宽其管辖范围，使其不仅限于体育博彩广告，而是将所有类型的商业博彩广告一网打尽、全盘规管。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Yeah, yeah. So we would like to I don't know if it's possible, you know, knowing about the legislative process of amending that bill to be broader and to address not just sports betting advertising, but also all, all gambling advertising.
### 破除“负责任博彩”迷思与庄家优势透明化 **主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 奈杰尔，让我们紧扣这一点继续讨论。仅仅建立一套国家级的广告监管框架真的足够吗？正如罗宾刚才所指出的，现行方案依然存在诸多漏洞与妥协，必须推动更深入的法案修正。从专业角度来看，你最希望看到怎样的法案落地？它怎样才能真正具备强大的制度威慑力？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Well, Nigel, let's pick up on that. Does creating a national strategy for regulation go far enough? Obviously, Robin already says kind of there not enough. There needs to be some some amendments there and some changes. But what would you like to see? Does this have teeth?
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 我非常赞同罗宾的观点，我们必须扩大监管视界，绝不能将目光仅仅狭隘地局限在体育运动上。这也是我在无数次接受媒体深度采访时不断疾呼的核心观点：这绝不仅仅是体育博彩的问题，核心的危害源于各类**电子老虎机（Slot machines）**、线上二十一点（Blackjack）以及五花八门的移动端赌场游戏。正因如此，我们迫切需要一套远比当前方案更加全面、更具系统性的综合法案，而不是只盯着体育这一个单一面相。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Well, yeah, I agree with Robin that we need to be broader, not just focussed on sports. And it's something that I've said in, in numerous interviews that it's not just about sports, it's about electronic slot machine type games. It's about blackjack and other games betting online. That and so we need something more comprehensive than just the focus on sports.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 正如你们所言，博彩产业绝不会自行消亡，反而会变得越来越唾手可得。因此，我想请两位提出一些能够实质性遏制危害的建设性建议。无论对于广大家长，还是对于正身处博彩泥潭或动念参赌的当事人，如果他们正在考虑下注或者已经深陷其中，你们有什么忠告？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Gambling is not going away. As you had mentioned, and only becoming easier. So I want to go through some recommendations to help kerb the harms. What would you suggest? Whether it's two parents, whether it's two people who are gambling. What are you suggesting for them? If they are thinking about it or in the midst of it?
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 首先，全面彻底取缔商业广告，并实质性加固针对青少年的年龄准入防线——因为未成年人总有无数种狡黠手段绕过目前的虚弱壁垒；其次，开展跨国协同治理。目前已经有国际组织正在致力于跨国联合打击**非法地下博彩网站**。我们必须清醒地认识到，这是一个超越国界的全球性跨国犯罪与公共卫生问题。我们必须投入足够的时间和资源与国际治理机构紧密配合，决不能让非法黑产博彩平台钻空子大肆投放广告侵蚀社会。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Well, getting rid of the advertising and improving the age restrictions on the kids know how to get around those age restrictions and also working there. There are there is an international Organization that is working at addressing the illegal gambling sites. This is an international problem. Yes. And I think time and attention spent in working with that group so that the illegal sites don't just jump in with, you know, their their advertising. I think I think that that would help.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 我能冒昧插一句问个简短的问题吗？对你个人而言，推动这项倡议的深层动机是什么？是什么促使你义无反顾地投身这场对抗庞大博彩资本的持久战？
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Do you mind me asking very quickly, what what is it? What's in it for you? Why is this the fight for you that you want to take part in?
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 这是一个非常深刻的问题。值得庆幸的是，在我的个人生活和家庭经历中，并没有任何人曾遭受过严重的赌瘾折磨。但我们这项事业之所以起步，是因为我们机构的联合创始人之一布鲁斯·基德（Bruce Kidd）。我和他相识于多伦多大学，当时我的女儿们在那里参加体育训练项目。 布鲁斯对商业博彩广告与非法赌注对神圣体育精神与文化的极度毒化感到了出离的愤怒。这促使我们开启了一场严肃的学习和调研之旅。而随着我们阅读的科学文献越来越多、听到的受害者血泪经历越来越丰富，我们纯粹出于人类同理心与社会责任感，对这股逆流给年轻一代造成的心理戕害感到不寒而栗。因此，这纯粹是一场源于捍卫公共利益的公民行动：它始于对纯粹体育精神的捍卫，并随着我们对真相认知和危害深度的理解不断扩大。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Well, a good a good question, because I don't thankfully have, in my own personal experience, an issue with with this. But when when we started, it was because Bruce Kidd, who was one of the founders of our Organization, I knew him from U of T and my, my girls in, in sports there. And he was outraged at the poisoning of the culture of sport by these ads and this betting. But that started us on a learning program. And the more we've read and the more we've heard about it, and the more we've become concerned, just as you know, human beings about what this is doing to particularly young people. So it was really just a public interest development that started with the sports, but has grown since. We've learned more.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 好的，奈杰尔，请你也给出一项遏制博彩伤害的核心建议。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: All right, Nigel, one recommendation to help kerb the harms.
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 我强烈希望能看到广告营销中展现出起码的**真实性与诚信（Honesty）**。我希望社会能向全体公民极其清晰、直白地揭示一个冷酷的客观真相：**赌博的本质从数学上就是输钱，绝对不是为了让你赢钱**。这是必然发生的数学铁律。 每一款博彩产品背后都精密嵌入了**庄家优势（House edge）**，这是完全编织在游戏规则底层架构里的必然参数。这种机制有时被极其隐蔽地隐藏起来——比如在老虎机上，普通人根本看不出庄家优势的比例究竟有多大。但它客观存在，而且当你在偶然赢钱时所获得的微薄回报，根本无法对冲你长期以往输钱的巨大亏空。 我希望所有平台必须强制推行彻底的信息透明，在显眼位置强制公示：“本游戏的庄家优势具体是多少，强制向全社会公开声明：参与本游戏，你每一笔下注平均必然损失多少钱。”举个例子，如果某款老虎机的庄家优势设定为 9%——许多市面上的老虎机正是如此——那就意味着**你在统计平均上每下一注，都将不可逆地白白损失掉这笔本金的 9%**。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: I'd like to see more honesty in the ads. I'd like people to be made it crystal clear to the population that gambling is about losing money. It's not about winning that. That is what happens. And that's, you know, that there's a house edge behind every game. It's factored into the design of the game. It's part of sometimes it's hidden, like you can't tell what the house edge is on a slot machine, but it's there and they just don't pay you enough when you do win for the times that you lose. And I'd like to see more honesty about that. What is the house edge and announce it. And this is how much you're going to lose every bet. So if it's, say, a 9% house edge as it is, in a lot of slot machines, that's 9% of every single bet on average, you're going to lose.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 正如人们常说的那句老话：庄家永远……
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: As they always say, the house always.
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 是的，庄家永远是最后的赢家。这句谚语总结得极具智慧。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: Yes it does. That's a very good quote.
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 我非常想就这点进一步补充。我们需要的是这一类揭露真相的科普广告，而不是诱导下注的商业促销。而过去博彩业所采取的典型套路，是假惺惺地将所谓的“**负责任博彩**”（Responsible gambling）公关话术推到台前作为所谓挡箭牌。 然而，我所阅读过的所有严谨独立学术研究均无一例外地证实：所谓的“负责任博彩”宣传话术在防范成瘾上根本完全无效！这是一种典型的**受害者有罪论（Blame the victim）**的流氓逻辑，在道德伦理上是极度恶劣和不正当的。 当你看到一个光芒万丈的体育巨星站在镜头前，装模作样地提及“负责任博彩”时，未成年孩子们接收到的真实潜台词绝不是风险警示，而恰恰是：“看呐，我的体育偶像都在亲自告诉我这是一项负责任的活动，我也可以像他一样‘负责任地’去赌博。”这种虚伪的说辞在本质上反而是为疯狂的赌博行为进行了最有力的官方背书。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: I'd love to to pick up on that, because the and to have that kind of advertising, not not the promotion. And what seems to have happened is that that responsible gambling messages have been put forward as an answer. Well, any research I've read indicates that responsible gambling messages do not work. It's a blame the victim approach, and it's really inappropriate. So you have a sports star standing up and saying, talking about mentioning the word responsible gambling. Well, what a kid hears is there's my hero telling me this is responsible. I can I can do this responsibly. So that endorses the activity.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 好的。由于时间关系，今天的讨论不得不在此告一段落。但这是一个我们节目将持续深入追踪报道的重大社会议题。非常感谢罗宾的大驾光临，也衷心感谢奈杰尔做客本期《The Rundown》。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: All right. Well, we are going to have to leave it here. This is something that we are going to continue to follow. I really appreciate your time, Robin. Nigel, thank you so much for joining us on The Rundown.
**罗宾·坎贝尔 (Robin Campbell)**: 荣幸之至，非常感谢。
Original English **Robin Campbell**: Welcome. Thank you.
**奈杰尔·特纳 (Nigel Turner)**: 我非常欣慰你们能对这个重大事件进行严肃深入的专题报道。
Original English **Nigel Turner**: I'm glad you're I'm glad you're reporting on this. Story.
**主持人 (Joanne Jaganathan)**: 你认为博彩合法化的步伐是否走得太远了？还是说这纯粹只是一个个人自控力与个人责任的范畴？欢迎在评论区留下你的观点，或者发送电子邮件至 rundown@tvo.org 与我们交流。在此之前，我们下周同一时间再见。
Original English **Host (Joanne Jaganathan)**: Do you think legalised gambling has gone too far, or do you think. It's a question of individual responsibility? Let us know in the comments, or send us an email to rundown at TVO.org. Until then, I will see you next week.