---
author: New York Times Podcasts
date: '2026-09-29'
guest: ''
layout: post.njk
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzP7KC0m0po
speaker: New York Times Podcasts
tags:
- sleep-ergonomics
- pillow-selection
- sleep-posture
- spine-alignment
title: 枕头终极挑选指南：睡眠姿势、填充材质与人体工学校准
summary: 本期 Wirecutter 播客深度拆解如何挑选适合自己的枕头。枕头专家 Shaina 剖析了记忆棉、羽绒与羽绒替代品（聚酯纤维）的优缺点、适配睡姿及寿命与清洁维护法则，为侧卧、仰卧和俯卧者提供科学的选购建议。
insight: ''
draft: true
series: ''
category: health-wellness
area: life-family
project: []
people: []
companies_orgs:
- Wirecutter
- The New York Times
products_models:
- Tempur-Pedic
- Marlow Pillow
- Coop Sleep Goods
- Garnet Hill Down Pillow
- Boll & Branch
- Charter Club Down Alternative
- Brooklyn Bedding
media_books: []
status: evergreen
---
### 醒来时的颈椎痛与枕头困扰
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 我只希望早上醒来的时候，脑子里完全不用去想枕头这回事。如果我没去想它，就说明你处于某种舒适状态中。没错，哈哈，确实如此。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I just want to not think about my pillow when I wake up in the morning. If I'm not thinking about it. If you're not in some comfort. Yeah, [laughter] exactly.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我当时的感觉就像是：“好吧，我醒了，身上哪儿都不疼。”
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I was just like, "Okay, I'm awake and nothing hurts."
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 我是**凯拉·布莱克韦尔**。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I'm Kyra Blackwell.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我是**罗西·加林**。您正在收听的是 **Wirecutter Show**。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I'm Rosie Garin. And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 凯拉，我能问你一个比较私密的问题吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Kyrie, can I ask you an intimate question?
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 当然可以。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Of course.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 你平时睡得怎么样？睡眠质量好吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: How do you sleep? Do you sleep well?
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 说实话，我睡得像个婴儿一样香。是的，做了这么久的睡眠产品测评作者，我必须得这么说，对吧？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I actually sleep like a baby. Yes. After all this time as a sleep rider, I have to say yes. Don't I?
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 这可真是在凡尔赛了。那你喜欢你现在的枕头吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: That's a flex. Do you like your pillow?
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 额，其实我不喜欢。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Okay. I don't.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我们今天的主题正好就是枕头。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: We're talking about pillows today.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 没错，我们今天要聊枕头。这特别逗，因为作为前床垫测评作者，现在依然总有人跑来找我推荐床垫和枕头。我每次都得告诉他们，枕头其实从来都不是我的专长领域，我完全搞不懂枕头里面到底有什么门道。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: We are talking about pillows. And this is so funny because as the ex mattress writer, people still come to me asking for mattress recommendations and pillow recommendations. And I have to always tell them that that actually was never my area. And I have no idea what the deal is with pillows.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那你当初买枕头的时候，心里对自己想要什么样的有概念吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: So when you bought your pillow, did you have an idea of what you were looking for?
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 完全没有概念。我当时就是随便挑了第一个看起来挺舒服的，而且花了一大笔钱买下它，所以我觉得它大概率还行。但我现在觉得差不多该换一个了。挑枕头真的很难，因为枕头的好坏往往决定了一夜好眠与早起落枕、颈部酸痛之间的差别。
这就是为什么我们今天邀请了 **Wirecutter** 的睡眠产品作者**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**。她会真正帮我们搞清楚究竟什么样的枕头适合你和你的身体体型。我们会和沙伊娜一起探讨什么是优质枕头，以及如何根据你的睡姿和体型来挑选枕头。
在正式进入与沙伊娜的对话之前，我想迅速提醒大家一个特别优惠：如果你还不是《**纽约时报**》的订阅用户，现在可以免费畅听时报旗下的内容而无需受付费墙限制。在首月期间，下载《纽约时报》App，你就能找到所有喜爱的节目，比如《Modern Love》、《Cannonball》，以及本节目 Wirecutter Show 的往期全部节目。好的，广告之后我们马上回来，请出沙伊娜。
欢迎回来！现在和我们坐在一起的是沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里，她是 Wirecutter 专门负责枕头和睡眠产品的作者。关于她有一个很有趣的事实：在成为一名记者之前，她其实是一位**古生物学家**。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I had no idea. I just got the first one that looked comfortable and I spent a pretty penny on it, so I figured it was probably fine. But I think I'm due for another one. It's tough because they can represent the difference between a good night's sleep versus a sleep where you wake up with a crick or just some discomfort in the morning. And that's why we're going to bring on Wire Critter sleepwriter [music] Shaina Montinari and she's really going to help us figure out what kind of pillow is right for you and your body. We're going to talk to Shaina [music] about what makes a good pillow and how to choose one based on the way you sleep and your body type. Before we jump into the episode with Shaina, really quickly, I want to let folks know about this special offer where if you're not already a subscriber to the New York Times, you can explore the Times [music] for free now without pay walls. During your first month, you got to download the New York Times app and you can find all your favorite shows like [music] Modern Love and Cannonball and the back catalog for this show, the Wire Cutter Show, and check out some old episodes. Okay, we'll be right back after the break [music] with Shaina. [music] [music] Welcome back. With us now is Shaina Montinari, a writer here at Wire Cutter who covers pillows and sleep products. A fun fact about her, before she was a journalist, she was actually a paleontologist.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 她不仅曾是古生物学家，还拥有大概15个学位。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Not only was she a paleontologist, but she has like 15 degrees.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 我知道。她还有两个孩子，在康涅狄格州过着非常美好的生活。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I know. And two kids and a lovely, [clears throat] lovely life out in Connecticut.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 你们真是太客气了。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: It's You're so nice.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 欢迎来到节目，这是我们为你热场捧场呢，哈哈。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Welcome to welcome piping me up. [laughter]
### 枕头的重要性与更换周期
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那么，让我们来聊聊睡眠吧。我们每天花那么多小时在睡觉上，枕头对睡眠究竟有多大影响？这其中的关联是什么？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Um, so let's talk about sleep. We spend however many hours sleeping. How much does your pillow actually matter to your sleep? What is the connection there?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我认为影响非常大。我们半夜常常因为感觉不舒服而醒来，一旦醒了，有时候就很难重新入睡。而一个好枕头真的能改变这种状况——它能让你更容易重新入眠，或者让你感觉凉爽透气，或者感到头部和颈部得到了充分支撑，而不会在醒来时觉得自己整个人像是被揉皱压扁了一样。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I think it matters a lot. We wake up in the middle of the night feeling uncomfortable. And if you wake up, it's hard to get back to sleep sometimes. And a good pillow can really change that. Being able to fall back to sleep or feeling cool or feeling supported and not waking up feeling like crumpled
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 揉皱压扁，哈哈。那么，一个人怎么才能知道是时候换个新枕头了呢？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: crumpled. [laughter] So, how would somebody know that it's time for a new pillow?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 首先最重要的一点，你确实需要定期更换枕头。大概**三年左右**差不多就是极限了。特别是……是的，尤其是如果你经常流口水或者出汗很多的话。人体皮肤会脱落大量角质皮屑，汗水和各种皮脂油脂都会渗进去。如果你的枕头出现结块、变形，或者早晨醒来时脖子感到僵硬酸痛，那它就该被扔掉了。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: First things first, you really should get a new pillow. Like, I mean, threeish years is probably the max. You should be Oh, Yeah. Especially Well, I mean, if you drool a lot or you are a hot sweaty sleeper, all of our skin's flaking off, the sweat, everything, the oils. If it's lumpy, if you wake up with a crick in your neck, it is time for it to go.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 稍微跑个题，旧枕头该怎么处理？该如何扔掉或者处置枕头？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: A slight digression. How do you dispose of pillows? How do you get rid of pillows?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我经常被问到这个问题，这确实是个好问题。在过去一年里，我家里堆了至少50个枕头。处置它们确实挺难的，因为很多旧货捐赠店并不接收用过的二手枕头，除非是全新的。不过，有些动物收容所会接收它们当宠物垫，或者你可以把旧枕头拆开，把里面的填充物拿来给抱枕补芯，甚至可以当作易碎物品的包装填充缓冲材料。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I get this question a lot and it is a good question because as I have had at least 50 pillows in my house, I think over the last year, it's hard because a lot of places like Goodwill thrift stores don't take use pillows unless it's new. But animal shelters will take them sometimes or you can take the stuff out and make use it for craft stuffing or use it for shipping materials.
### 枕头评测方法与气味测试
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 是的。稍后我们会深入探讨你测试过的各种不同类型的枕头，里面有太多知识点了。但首先我想聊聊你是如何进行测试的。测试枕头听起来像是一份极其主观的工作。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah. We're going to get into all the different kinds of pillows that you've tested because there's so much to learn there. But first I want to talk about how you test them. Testing a pillow feels like it would be so subjective.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 确实非常主观。每个人的偏好和习惯千差万别。在开始测试时，我首先会仔细检查枕头本身。我见过绝大多数枕头，我非常注重做工细节，比如缝线质量、面料触感、拉链顺滑度等等。
接着，我非常关注枕头是否有**异味（气味释放）**。因为很多枕头，尤其是记忆棉枕头，出厂时都是紧紧压缩在塑料包装里的，拆开后会有一股刺鼻的化学异味。所以我必须检查这些气味，观察散味需要多长时间。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Certainly is. Yeah, this is a tough one. Everyone's preferences are so different. To start, I look at the pillows first. So, I've seen the most pillows, so I'm really looking at the detail. Like, what's the sewing look like? What does the fabric feel like? Zippers, everything. Then I'm smelling the pillows, too.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 对气味非常敏感。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Very sensitive to it.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 极度敏感。我必须确保那种异味能够散掉，因为很多时候记忆棉拆封后的气味会持续很久。之后，我会在上面睡上至少几个晚上。
但单靠我一个人睡显然是不够的。因此，Wirecutter 会组织一个由不同体型、不同睡姿的大规模**真人测试小组**。我们会把枕头分发给测试员，让他们在自己家里睡上好几周，然后收集他们详尽的反馈问卷。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Very sensitive. I want to make sure that that smell goes away cuz a lot of times memory foam comes compressed in plastic. So, I want to like check for that. See how long it takes to dissipate. Then I sleep on them for a couple nights. But like you said, I'm just one person. So, Wire Cutter uses a large testing panel of all different body shapes, sizes, sleep styles. So, we're giving people all these pillows to sleep on for weeks at home and then collect their feedback.
### 三大睡姿与脊柱对齐原理
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 侧卧睡姿是最常见的，其次是仰卧睡姿，而俯卧（趴睡）则是最少见的。通常，当我跟趴睡的人交谈时，他们都会承认这并不是一种很舒服的姿势。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: and then stomach sleeping is the rarest. Typically, when I talk to Well, when I talk to stomach sleepers, they're like, "I know it's bad." They're always like, "I shouldn't be doing it."
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 确实不好。我趴着睡醒来之后，从来不觉得神清气爽，哈哈。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: It isn't. I don't I don't [laughter] particularly feel refreshed when I wake up.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 你的脖子是不是一直扭着？
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Do you twist your neck?
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 是的，可能有很多导致不舒服的因素，哈哈。我儿子也是个趴睡者。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah, there could be many contributing factors. [laughter] My son is also a stomach sleeper. He sleeps directly face down.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 他每晚睡觉就像在水下戴呼吸管潜水一样。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: He's just snorkeling every night.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 真的，看起来有点吓人，哈哈，但他睡得倒挺香。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: It's really It's kind of alarming, [laughter] but he sleeps well.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 是啊，有些人生来就是这样。所以，在做测评推荐时，我们需要兼顾不同的睡姿、不同的体型和身材比例。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah, some people are like that. And um so, you know, try to think of different body sizes and proportions.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我想价格区间也是一个重要考量，因为枕头的价格跨度应该相当大吧。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: And price points, I imagine, too. Cuz I guess there's a probably a fairly large range.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 没做，你说的很对。问题在于我确实测试过很多非常便宜的枕头，但它们绝大多数都没法在长达数月的测试中存活下来。便宜的枕头往往一两个月就塌陷结块了，你不得不频繁去买新的。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: No, you're right. I mean, you're right. The issue is I do try a lot of cheapish pillows, but they just don't survive. They don't survive through the testing. So, then you're just buying pillows, you know, every two months.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 你确实得不停买。虽然你也许能勉强多撑一阵子，但那种睡眠体验肯定很糟。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: You do. I mean, you can maybe push it a little further, but you know, you're not getting great sleep.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 正如我们讨论过的，挑选枕头很大程度上取决于你的睡姿。那么在枕头构造方面，具体的支撑原理是怎样的？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: So, choosing a pillow, as as we've discussed, is dependent on how you sleep. What are the needs of each of the styles of sleepers?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 挑选枕头的终极目标，就是让你的**脊柱保持中立对齐 (Spine Alignment)**。
简单来说，当侧躺在床上时，你的头颈应该像正常站立时一样平直。如果枕头太高，你的脖子就会向上过度弯曲；如果枕头太低或太软，头就会向下耷拉，脊柱就错位了。
这就是为什么**可调节高度 (Adjustable)** 的枕头在我们推荐榜单中占有很大优势——你可以随时根据自己的肩宽和床垫软硬度，拉开拉链增减内部填充物。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: which is are adjustable. So, that's a big plus when recommending pillows is that they can kind of change. But really you just want a straight line. Like your spine should be in a straight line. You don't want to be tilting up or down. If your pillow's too high, you're going to tilt up. If it's too low, you're tilting down.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 没错，就像是你站立时的自然姿态，只不过你是平躺下来的。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Yeah. Exactly. like you're standing up but you're lying down,
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 说的太对了！哈哈。如果你夜里经常醒来觉得脖子落枕或酸痛，往往就是因为枕头高度不对，导致整晚脊柱都处于扭曲状态。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: right? [laughter] And if you if you're feeling like maybe you're waking up in the middle of the night, crick in your neck, it could be that your spine is bent.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 是的。相比更换昂贵的床垫，换枕头显然是一个更容易解决睡眠问题的手段，这就是为什么大家都想尝试各种不同的枕头。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah. I mean, that's an easier fix, which is why people want to try a lot of different pillows.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 只要你不觉得难受，也就是说身上没有任何酸痛，那就说明选对了。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: If you're not in some meaning I'm not in pain. Yeah. Exactly.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我当时的感觉就是：“太好了，我醒来了，而且身上哪儿都不酸痛。”我们追求的无非就是这种状态。哪怕我们尽量做到最好……
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I was just like, "Okay, I'm awake and nothing hurts." So as much as possible. Even though we try our best.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 罗西，我能给你提个建议吗？如果你习惯趴着睡，甚至脸朝下把头埋在床单里，其实很多人趴睡时根本不需要高枕头，甚至有些人完全不垫枕头，或者只垫一个极薄极扁的枕头。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Well, can I offer some advice, which is that you end up on your stomach looking at the bed. You could not use a pillow.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 很少有趴睡的人说他们完全不用枕头。我自己睡觉从来没有不垫枕头过。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Not a lot of stomach sleepers say they don't want a pillow. And I've never slept without a pillow.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我可不是故意选择过这种趴睡生活的，哈哈。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I haven't chosen this life. [laughter] Your life, right?
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 但罗西，你内心还是渴望枕头的。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: But you want a pillow, Rosie.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我确实有枕头。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I have pillows.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 是啊。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Yeah.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 我入睡时总是靠在枕头上的，哈哈。如果不垫枕头，会不会让人觉得很难受？还是说你会觉得……
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I always start on a pillow. [laughter] Does it hurt to not be on a pillow or are you like you're Yeah,
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 不不不，哈哈，完全不会痛！一点都不会。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: No, no, no. [laughter] Oh, no. No, no.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 但你心理上还是想枕着东西。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: You want to be on a pillow.
### 退货政策与试睡保障
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 对了，你刚才提到了退货。我以前其实根本不知道枕头买回来还能退货。这方面到底有什么规则和门道？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: So, you mentioned returning. I didn't really know that you could return a pillow. What's the deal there?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 是的，有些枕头品牌非常乐意接受退货。它们提供长达数十天的试睡期和质保保证。比如我们榜单上推荐的一款枕头，就提供了整整一年的试用退货期。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah, some co some some companies are happy to take a return. There's a warranty. Like one of our picks has a one-year return period.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 他们竟然允许？不过也有些品牌的政策明确写着“一经售出概不退换”。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: They Well, they do. Some of them a couple of them are do say no returns.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 没错。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Okay.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 不过我经常收到读者的来信反馈，说即便有些品牌官网上写着不接受退换，但当读者真心觉得不合适去联系客服时，客服往往还是给办理了退货。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I have gotten messages from readers that they have been able to return them even though I said there are no returns.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 只要你态度诚恳礼貌地去跟客服沟通。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Just if you ask nicely.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 对，哈哈，如果你真的不喜欢这件产品。这也是为什么有些枕头能入选我们顶级推荐榜单的原因之一——因为很多公司确实提供极其宽松的退货保障政策。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah, [laughter] you really don't like something. But um yeah, like you know, the reason some of the top picks get chosen is because companies offer these return policies.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 这种感觉就像买鞋子一样，我打算在室内和室外都穿一下试试。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: I plan to wear them inside and outside.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 有些品牌的条款很严苛，写着“只有未拆封、未使用过的枕头才可退换”。这简直太荒谬了，你不拆开枕头睡一睡，怎么可能知道它到底舒不舒服呢？
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: So, some of the pillows are like, "You can return it if you haven't opened it or slept on." It's like, "How am I going to know if I like it if I don't sleep on it?"
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 所以在盲目掏钱买枕头之前，你真的必须先彻底清楚自己的睡眠习惯和睡姿类型。先搞清楚自己到底是趴睡、仰卧还是侧卧。不同睡姿对枕头的要求截然不同，核心就是要确保整晚脊柱都能保持水平对齐。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: You should really know what your sleep style is before you go out and try to buy yourself a pillow. Figure out if you sleep on your stomach, on your back, or on your sides. You will have different requirements for what you need from a pillow and you just want your spine to be aligned the entire time.
### 第一类：一体成型与碎记忆棉枕
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 欢迎回来！我们今天的嘉宾是 Wirecutter 的枕头专家沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里。沙伊娜，在你的枕头指南中，主要推荐了三大核心材质类别：**记忆棉 (Memory Foam)**、**羽绒 (Down)** 以及**羽绒替代纤维 (Down Alternative)**。我们想把这三类逐一拆解分析，首先从记忆棉枕头开始。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Welcome back. Our guest today is Shaina Montinari. She's Wire Cutters pillow expert. So Shaina, there are three main types of pillows that you recommend in your guide. Memory foam, down, and down alternative. So we want to break each of those down and we want to start with memory foam pillows.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 当工厂制造记忆棉时，其实是一场剧烈的聚合物化学反应。当反应完成时，它通常直接生成一大块完整的海绵发泡体。
制造厂商可以直接切割出完整的一大块泡沫。这正是我们记忆中父母那一代最早使用的老式**一体成型记忆棉枕头 (One-piece Foam Pillow)**——就是一整块实心模切记忆棉。
但是在当代，市面上出现了另一种极受欢迎的形态：**碎记忆棉枕头 (Shredded Memory Foam)**。他们会把大块记忆棉切碎成无数细小的碎片，并混合一些聚酯纤维，填充在可拉开拉链的内胆中。这使得碎记忆棉枕头拥有极高的调节自由度。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: When they make memory foam, it's a big chemical reaction and it can kind of just comes in one big piece when it's done. The reaction's done. So, you can take big pieces of that and I think I know memory foam pillows of your as I remember like my parents using when they it was kind of a newer material. It was like one solid piece of foam. And so that is still an option today. But the other option is shredded memory foam. So they shred it all up into little tiny bits and then you can take it out and put it back in and it can kind of mimic down, which down is our other category we'll talk about. But it can kind of be moved around. And with the solid piece of foam, you can't really do that. You just got to take what they got. Sometimes they come in different heights.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 也就是说，它的一大痛点是实心海绵的高度是固定的，比如有低矮版或高厚版，可能一个是5英寸，另一个是6英寸。虽然看起来差别不大，但如果你选错了厚度，可能就完全无法匹配你的肩宽颈椎。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah. And it's like basically the thickness of the foam. So it' be like a low or a high. So it's like one might be five inches and one might be six inches, which doesn't seem like a lot, but you know, you want to make sure you pick the right one for you or else it's like probably not going to be good.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 确实如此。至于碎记忆棉，有些低质产品睡上去会感觉明显结块、凹凸不平。而我们在指南中精心挑选出的推荐款，其碎片极其细腻均匀，内部还配有柔顺的内胆套，完全感觉不到颗粒感，反而带来了非常平滑舒适的包裹感。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Well, some Yeah, some can feel lumpy and so the pics that we have settled on have really got nicely shredded foam and like kind of smooth lining so you don't feel like you're sleeping on a bag of packing peanuts.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 有些劣质记忆棉被压得极其容易扁塌，根本提供不了支撑力；而另一些则硬得像块大石头。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: super compressible and [snorts] probably not very supportive, while others are like way too hard.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 没错，哈哈！我测试某些硬枕头时忍不住想，头得有20磅重才能把它压下去吧。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah. [laughter] And I'm like, whose head your head would have to weigh 20 pounds for this to like compress it.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 那一体成型记忆棉和碎记忆棉枕头是不是都更适合**侧卧者 (Side Sleepers)** 呢？我自己就是个侧卧睡姿者。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: And are both one piece and shredded memory foam pillows better for side sleepers. Yeah, I'm a side sleeper.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 是的。选枕头要考量的因素很多，首当其冲的就是支撑性。侧卧睡姿者的头颈与床垫之间存在一个较大的肩宽空隙，通常需要**厚实且支撑力强**的枕头来填补，因此记忆棉——无论是一体成型还是高充盈度的碎记忆棉——都是侧卧者的绝佳选择。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah. I feel like it there's like so many things that go into choosing a pillow. I mean, first and foremost, like we said, you know, we're talking about spinal alignment. We're talking about comfort. And the support level is huge. So side sleepers need a lot of support. So a firmer pillow, like a one piece memory foam pillow or a densely packed shredded memory foam pillow, is great for side sleepers. Back sleepers need medium support. And stomach sleepers need the least support. So a softer, flatter pillow is better for stomach sleepers.
### 第二类：天然羽绒枕与禽类羽毛科普
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那羽绒枕头呢？我们能聊聊羽绒吗？羽绒枕是直接拔下鸭鹅的羽毛塞进枕头里的吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: How about down? Can we talk about down for a minute? Is that they pluck the feathers and put it in the pillow?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 好的，大家系好安全带，我要揭秘羽绒背后的真相了，听起来可能会有点残忍沉重，哈哈。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yes. So, buckle up. So, I'll tell you about feathers. Going to be grim. [laughter]
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 人们选择枕头材质有各种考量。其中一个主要分水岭是**道德伦理与环保顾虑**。羽绒取自水禽动物，如果你是一位素食主义者，你显然绝对不会想用羽绒枕头，这完全可以理解。
传统羽绒很多来自肉禽产业链的副产品，或者在换羽期收集。而世界上最顶级的羽绒——比如冰岛的**雌绒鸭绒 (Eiderdown)**——是在母鸭孵蛋离巢后，工人手工一窝一窝捡拾收集的。这种天然采集需要付出极其巨大的人力劳动。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. When I was saying there's a variety of reasons people choose pillows. One category is ethical concerns. And down comes from birds, waterfowl. So, if you're a vegetarian or vegan, you might not want to use down, which is totally understandable. Some down is certified responsible down standard, which means the animals are treated more humanely. But down is basically the undercoating of feathers on geese and ducks. It doesn't have quills, which is why it's so soft. But then there are feathers, which have quills, and often pillows will use a blend of both.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 纯素食者是绝对无法接受动物制品的，这非常合理。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Right? A [laughter] vegan or a vegetarian like you're not going to like that. And that's totally fine.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 纯手工捡拾确实需要付出极多努力。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: A lot more effort. Yes. It's hand collected.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那羽绒枕究竟适合什么样的睡姿人群？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Who are down pillows for? What kind of sleeper?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 说实话，羽绒枕是个挺复杂的品类。根据我的测试经验，纯羽绒枕对多数侧卧者来说并不算理想，因为纯羽绒缺乏硬性支撑力，你的头枕上去后会一直下陷。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: You know, down pillows are hard cuz they're really I don't think in my experience, they're great for side sleepers. Because they compress down so much that unless it's packed with a ton of down or has feathers in the middle, you're not going to get the height and support you need.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 羽绒 (Down) 和普通羽毛 (Feather) 到底有什么区别？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: What's the difference?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 羽绒本质上也是一种羽毛，但它是禽类贴近皮肤最底层的细绒毛。它是世界上最柔软蓬松的纤维，**没有硬羽梗 (Quill)**。
而普通羽毛具有坚硬的中央羽轴根部，有时候劣质羽毛枕头的羽梗会扎穿面料刺出来。因此，很多羽绒枕会采用“**三层夹心结构**”：外层包裹柔软舒适的纯羽绒，中心内胆则填充具有一定支撑力骨架的硬质羽毛。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah, down is a type of feather. So, it's all feathers. Down's the softest feather. It's so light, soft, fluffy, and doesn't have the quill, which is the hard part of the feather. Regular feathers have quills, which can poke through. But feathers give structure. So a lot of down pillows have a three-chamber design where there's feathers on the inside for support, and down on the outside for softness.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 靠中间的羽毛来撑起结构。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: inside that are like, you know, creating that structure.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 在我们推荐的高端奢华纯羽绒枕中，羽绒的填充比例极高，手感云端般柔软，但它被压缩后的高度非常低。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: In these really nice, really high cost, like high-end down pillows that we recommend, it's a pretty pure down, so it's super soft, cloud-like, but it compresses down quite low.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 听起来它最适合**俯卧趴睡者**，因为趴睡者不需要枕头有很高的厚度。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Sounds like it's probably best for stomach sleepers then because stomach sleepers don't need that much support.
### 第三类：羽绒替代品、聚酯纤维与酒店枕头之谜
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 没错！而这正好把我们引向了最后一个大类——**羽绒替代纤维 (Down Alternative)**。如果你迷恋羽绒那种蓬松柔软、可以随意揉捏成型的感觉，但又不想使用动物羽毛，或者有呼吸道过敏问题，羽绒替代纤维就是为你准备的。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: That's what gets us into our final category because if you maybe want that feeling but you feel weird about feathers, you're allergic, you're vegan, you go down alternative. And that is typically polyester fiberfill.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 这一类通常是由**聚酯纤维 (Polyester Fiberfill)** 制成的。市面上最廉价的枕头基本都出自这个领域。当有人说“我想买一个20美元的平价枕头”时，他们买到的基本都是聚酯纤维填充枕。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: And this is where, you know, you're going to see the cheapest pillows. When people say, "I want a pillow for $20," that is going to be polyester.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 但是，聚酯纤维的工艺和品质差距可以说是天壤之别。我想大家都有过这样的糟糕体验：买回一个便宜枕头，洗一次或者睡了几个星期，里面的棉絮就缩成一团团硬硬的死疙瘩。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Now, there's just huge differences in polyester fill quality. I think everybody maybe has sort of experienced that cheap polyester pillow where after a few weeks or months, it just clumps up into these awful balls of fiber and feels totally dead.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 所谓“一分钱一分货”，如果某个宣传天花乱坠的聚酯纤维枕头售价低得离谱，那多半靠不住。优质的聚酯微纤维（比如仿羽绒凝胶纤维）手感极佳，使用寿命长，但价格往往也在80美元甚至更高。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: you know, if it's too good to be true, it is like these really high quality polyester down alternative pillows will be more expensive.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 售价在80美元以上的品质通常比较过硬。如果它标榜自己是高端奢华材质却只卖20美元，我劝你一定要心存怀疑。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: $80 and up. If it's advertised as being high quality and it's 20, I would be a little suspicious. And that's also what a lot of hotels use.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 你能权威地给我们解释一下，为什么**酒店里的枕头绝大多数都那么难睡**吗？哈哈。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Can you give us the final word on why hotel pillows are mostly bad? [laughter]
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 感谢你问这个问题！这其实是一个争议极大的话题，我最近正好在深入调查这一现象。
酒店枕头之所以经常让人失望，核心在于酒店必须在极具冲突的双重诉求中寻找妥协：一方面，他们需要枕头能满足每晚成百上千位不同睡姿、不同体型的房客；另一方面，为了卫生，他们必须对枕头进行频繁的高温工业洗涤和烘干。
因此，绝大多数酒店选用的是大批量采购的中等硬度聚酯纤维或混合羽绒枕。为了防止客人头颈悬空太高被投诉，它们往往做得偏扁偏软。但对于需要强支撑的侧卧者来说，一枕上去就完全陷到底了，感觉空无一物。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: This is a very divisive issue that I've been recently investigating, so thanks for asking. Hotels industry-wide try to cater to everyone. They have to accommodate back sleepers, stomach sleepers, side sleepers of every shape and size, and they wash them constantly. So they buy in bulk, usually polyester or cheap down/feather blends. They tend to make them medium-to-soft so nobody feels their neck is cranked up too high, but if you're a side sleeper, your head sinks right through to the mattress, and by morning you have a terrible neck ache.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 这对很多旅客来说确实太难受了。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: for folks.
### 枕头的清洗与维护保养法则
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 这么说来，羽绒枕和羽绒替代纤维枕头是可以直接扔进洗衣机清洗的吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: So you can wash down and down alternative pillows like in the washing machine.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 是的。不过我的第一条原则永远是：**先看洗涤水洗标签**。
一般来说，最容易机洗的是羽绒替代品，羽绒枕头也可以水洗，但烘干羽绒极其耗时耗力。你必须使用低温烘干，并且往烘干机里扔进几个羊毛烘干球或干净的网球，反复烘干数个小时直到内部羽绒彻底干燥。如果羽绒内部没有完全干透，它非常容易发霉产生恶臭。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah. I mean I always say look at the label. If we're going to go like the easiest to wash is down alternative. Down is washable too, but it takes forever to dry. You have to put tennis balls or wool dryer balls in the dryer on low heat and run it multiple cycles, because if the down stays damp inside, it will start to smell mildewy and rot.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 如果你不让它完全晾干，后果很严重。高品质的羽绒替代纤维往往标明可机洗，但必须遵守细则。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: if you don't let it dry nicely. Down alternative often it will say is washable. But if it's a really high quality fiberfill, you want to make sure it doesn't bunch up in the wash.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 而记忆棉枕头，大概率是**绝对不能水洗**的吧？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: and memory foam. You probably can't wash.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 没错！比如我们推荐的 **Tempur-Pedic** 实心一体成型海绵枕，绝对不能水洗。它内部的海绵密度极高。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: It's like a one piece tempropedic, the foam pillow that we recommend. Can't wash that. It's just too dense.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 是啊。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 内部的海绵实在太厚实致密了，一旦进水它可能永远都干不透，对吧？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: But the foam inside is just too dense. It'll never dry, right?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 永远干不透！而且还没等它晾干，内部就会长霉变质，彻底毁掉。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: It'll never dry. And you know, before it starts to dry, it'll start you could get like moldy and be completely ruined.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 至于碎记忆棉枕头，市面上部分品牌的外枕套可以拆卸机洗，但里面的碎海绵颗粒也是严禁浸水洗涤的。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: The shredded foam pillows, I think one of them says you shouldn't wash it and one of them says you can wash the outer cover, but never wash the foam filling itself.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那你一般建议大家多久清洗一次枕头？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: How often are you recommending people wash their pillows?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我们的官方建议通常是**每年清洗一到两次**。如果你能坚持每年洗一次，那就已经非常棒了。当然，**枕套和防螨保护套**应该每隔一两周就清洗一次。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Our recommendations are typically like every year. If you can do it, you know, if you can do it once or twice a year, that's great. Pillowcases, obviously, wash every week or two, and use a pillow protector.
### 快速问答：不同睡姿与需求的精准推荐
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 太棒了，我很喜欢这个环节。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Okay. I like doing this.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 好的，第一道题：如果是一位**俯卧趴睡者**，喜欢柔软蓬松、可以随着身体揉捏塑形的触感，该选哪款？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: All right. Stomach sleeper who likes a soft, squishable pillow that can mold around themselves a little bit.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 羽绒枕是首选。我们在榜单中推荐了 **Garnet Hill 羽绒枕**。它经常打折促销，舒适度极高。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: A down pillow would be great. Uh we have a Garnet Hill down pillow pick that is frequently on sale, very soft and luxurious.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那款大概多少钱？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: And how much is that one?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 售价大概是200美元左右，通常定价是199美元，但在促销季打折力度经常很大。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: It's like 200. It's typically 200. I think it's $1.99, but it's often on sale.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 那如果是**侧卧睡姿者**，颈椎需要强力支撑，希望枕头整晚都能保持固定高度不塌陷呢？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: What if we have somebody who's a side sleeper that needs a lot of support and they want their pillow to stay high and firm?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 那绝对是 **Tempur-Pedic** 的一体成型经典实心记忆棉枕。它提供了无与伦比的坚实支撑，整晚都不会下陷走样。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: That's going to be the Tempur-Pedic solid memory foam pillow. It is firm, supportive, and holds your neck in alignment all night long.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那个售价是多少？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: How much is that one?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 一个大概175美元。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: 175 for one.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我知道这价格不便宜，我今天带来的都是硬通货的高端推荐。但对于需要严重颈椎支撑的人来说，它们物有所值。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I know. I know. I these I know I'm I'm bringing the heat. These are the expensive ones, but I w they really work.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 它是单块实心一体海绵吗？是的，一整块实心记忆棉。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: And is that a single piece of foam? Yes, that's a single piece of foam.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 明白。那如果有人喜欢羽绒的蓬松触感，但又希望能有更强的支撑力和硬度呢？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Okay. So someone who likes the feel of down but would ideally like something firmer and more supportive?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 那你可以考虑高端羽绒替代纤维，或者碎记忆棉枕头。羽绒替代品方面，我们首推 **Marlow Pillow**。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah, I think there you could go down alternative or memory foam, shredded memory foam for down alternative, the Marlow pillow is fantastic.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那款价格亲民得多，对吧？性价比非常不错。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: That one's more affordable, right? And that's a good price, right? So that
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 打折促销时，我见过低至71美元左右就能买到。那是一款受众极其普遍的优秀枕头。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: sometimes I see it as low on sales. It's like $71 you can get it. And that's just like a universally liked pillow.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 它是碎记忆棉填充的吗？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: And is that shredded memory foam? shredded memory foam.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: Marlow 是通过独特的侧边拉链来调节内部压缩松紧度的。如果你想要完全可抓取的碎海绵，**Coop Sleep Goods** 枕头则是碎记忆棉里的王者。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Yeah. So, you can adjust that one
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 你可以随心所欲增减里面的海绵碎屑。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: however much you want.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 那 **Boll & Branch** 的枕头价格大概是多少？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: How much is the bowl and branch?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 大约100美元上下。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: It's like 100.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 那如果有人追求羽绒那种极度柔软、奢华的云端感，但出于动物保护不想要真羽毛，也不想花200美元的高价呢？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: What if somebody wants the soft, luxurious feel of down, but they don't want the pillow filled with animal products, and they don't want to spend $200?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 出乎很多人意料的是，梅西百货 (Macy's) 旗下销售的 **Charter Club 羽绒替代枕** 表现惊艳。我原本以为它可能一般，但实际睡感非常柔软奢华，而且性价比超高。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: right? So, a good pillow that's from Macy's of all places actually that I thought would be a little ordinary, the Charter Club down alternative pillow is shockingly good and very affordable.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 那如果是一个希望追求奢华感、喜欢慢回弹记忆棉触感、侧身睡觉的侧卧者呢？
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: how about a side sleeper who wants something pretty luxurious and maybe more of the memory foam feel?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 论奢华记忆棉质感，我认为 **Brooklyn Bedding** 出品的碎记忆棉可调枕头质感极佳，做工扎实，我个人测试时非常喜欢。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Well, luxurious. I think the Brooklyn Bedding has a nice shredded memory foam pillow that I liked a lot. It feels very plush and well-made.
### 尾声与购物分享
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 太棒了。在我们结束采访之前，我们照例会问每位嘉宾最后一个固定问题：你最近买的一件好物是什么？
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Okay. Well, before we wrap, we always ask our guests one final question. What's the last thing you bought and loved?
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 朋友们，在 Wirecutter 工作，我平时剁手买的东西实在太多了。你们知道我最近最爱什么吗？我买了一只 **Baggu** 的托特包。
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: I guys, I buy so much stuff working at Wire Cutter. You know what I love? I bought a Bagu bag. I was actually just carrying it around today.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 在 Wirecutter，我们大家都超爱 Baggu 这个品牌！
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: We love Bagu here at Wire Cutter
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 我买的是一款印花购物袋，图案看起来酷似曼哈顿上西区老牌杂货熟食店 Zabar's 的经典包装袋！
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: and I got a shopping bag that looks like the Zars bag. It's a Upper West Side grocery store. One of my favorites in New York.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 天哪，太绝了！但上面印的字其实是 Baggu，太可爱了。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Oh, so good. But it says Bagu and I just thought that was cute. [music]
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 沙伊娜，非常感谢你今天做客我们的节目！
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Shaya, thanks so much for joining us.
**沙伊娜·蒙蒂纳里 (Shaina Montinari)**: 谢谢你们，这次聊得太开心了！
Original English
**Shaina Montinari**: Thanks. This was great. [music]
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 凯拉，我觉得沙伊娜这个人简直太酷了。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Kyra, I think Shaya is so cool.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 真的，她的人生经历太传奇了。今天的对话也包含了太多硬核干货。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Oh my god, she's lived such a cool life. And that was a really, really interesting conversation [music]
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 是啊，我也受益匪浅。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Yeah, me too.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 你今天最大的收获是什么？我觉得我必须赶紧把家里那块一体实心记忆棉枕头换掉，换成碎记忆棉枕头了。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: What did you learn? I [music] think I need to ditch my one piece memory foam pillow and switch to a shredded memory foam.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 我在今天之前甚至都不知道还有“碎记忆棉”这种品类存在。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I didn't even know that that existed actually shredded.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 简直太巧妙了。你可以自由调节厚度，我非常喜欢这种不用被固定高度绑架的设计。
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Super cool. And you can adjust it and I really I just like that idea that it's not just one set thing.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 是的。我最大的认知刷新是关于枕头的寿命周期——原来枕头用了三年左右真的就该更换了。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: Yeah. My big takeaway was around the longevity piece that actually you probably should be replacing your pillow every threeish years.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 对我来说另一大震惊点是：我们居然应该定期清洗枕头！
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: The other thing for me is that you should be washing your pillows.
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 我以前也从来没洗过枕芯。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: I haven't been doing that either.
**罗西·加林 (Rosie Garin)**: 沙伊娜建议每年清洗一次。当然，千万不能把记忆棉扔进水里洗，因为它永远、永远、永远都干不透，只会发霉烂掉。感谢大家的收听！
Original English
**Rosie Garin**: Shaya says once a year. Obviously, you're not washing memory foam because it will never ever ever ever dry. Thanks for listening. [music]
**凯拉·布莱克韦尔 (Kyra Blackwell)**: 冰岛那些捡拾母鸭绒的公司，这简直应该成为我们的副业才对，哈哈。我知道，我真想去一趟冰岛，亲眼参观一下他们的羽绒采集农场设施。
Original English
**Kyra Blackwell**: There's companies in Iceland that do this of id for this should be our side hustle. [laughter] I know I want to go to Iceland and visit iderown facilities.