--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-09-11' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwAAJXbNC00 speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - book-review - literary-adaptation - family-drama - contemporary-literature title: 《纽约时报》书评节目探讨乔纳森·弗兰岑小说《纠正》及其影视改编 summary: 在乔纳森·弗兰岑小说《纠正》出版25周年之际，《纽约时报》书评节目主持人吉尔伯特·克鲁兹与特稿撰稿人塔菲·布罗德瑟-阿克纳共同探讨了该书的主题、文学影响、过往未成形的试播集以及筹备中的影视改编计划。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: philosophy-wisdom area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Jonathan Franzen - Taffy Brodesser-Akner - Gilbert Cruz companies_orgs: - The New York Times - Netflix products_models: [] media_books: - The Corrections status: evergreen --- ### 节目录制开场 我觉得在完整家庭那种封闭而充满爱的回路里，人们到底是如何互相伤害的，我们此前并不真正知晓。而且我也不认识有谁从未产生过这种感觉——觉得其他人家那亮着灯光的窗户里住着的都是正常家庭，而自己的家庭却不正常。
Original English I don't think we did know how people hurt each other in a closed loving circuit of an unbroken family. And I don't know anybody who has never had this feeling where in the glowing windows of the other homes is a normal family. And your family is not normal.
我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹（Gilbert Cruz），这里是《纽约时报》书评节目。两年前，《纽约时报》评选出了21世纪百佳图书榜单。那可不仅是我们一家之言。我们联系了数百位小说家、非虚构作家、诗人、书店店主以及各界文学名家，询问他们心目中2000年以来出版的最佳图书是哪些。我们汇总了所有选票，统计了数据，整理出了这份榜单。对于那些出版时间较早但算不上古老、你或许该去读一读的书，这是一份绝佳的指南。今天，我们要聚焦于我们21世纪伟大作品榜单上的第五本书。第五名，这是一个非常高的名次。那本书就是乔纳森·弗兰岑（Jonathan Franzen）的《纠正》（The Corrections）。
Original English I'm Gilbert Cruz and this is the book review from the New York Times. Two years ago, the New York Times published a list of the hundred best books of the 21st century. And that wasn't just us saying so. We reached out to hundreds of novelists and non-fiction writers, poets, and bookstore owners, literary luminaries of every stripe, and we asked them what they thought were the best books published since the year 2000. We took all of those votes, we crunched the numbers, and we put together our list. It's a great guide to older but not ancient books that you should probably check out. Today we're going to focus on the fifth book on our list of 21st century greats. It's a very high number, number five. That book is The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen.
本月恰逢《纠正》出版25周年。这部小说不仅成了备受瞩目的畅销书，还荣获了美国国家图书奖，入围了普利策奖决选名单。它曾是奥普拉读书俱乐部的选书，直到后来被取消。它也是一部在“9·11”前一周才面世的作品。你再也想不出比这更糟糕的宣传和销售小说的时间点了。然而，《纠正》却获得了立竿见影的成功。或许是因为在许多人看来，它代表了“9·11”前那个美国的终结。当意识到这个周年纪念即将来临时，我知道我必须邀请我的朋友兼同事塔菲·布罗德瑟-阿克纳（Taffy Brodesser-Akner）。塔菲是《纽约时报杂志》的特稿撰稿人。她采写过令人心碎的故事，写过令人捧腹的故事，还撰写过当今最出色的几篇人物专访。她自己也是两位小说的作者，著有《弗莱什曼有麻烦了》（Fleishman Is in Trouble）和《长岛妥协》（Long Island Compromise），后者深受《纠正》的影响。事实上，塔菲对《纠正》的喜爱程度，让她表示自己重读这本书的频繁程度已经超过了她愿意承认的范围。不过我觉得她今天在这里是会承认的。塔菲，感谢你加入我们。
Original English The Corrections is celebrating its 25th anniversary this month. The novel, in addition to becoming a muchdised bestseller, won the National Book Award. It was a Pulitzer finalist. It was an Oprah Book Club pick until it was not. It's also a book that came out just a week before 911. You could not think of a more terrible time to try to promote and sell a novel. And yet, The Corrections was an instant success. Perhaps because to many it represented the end of a pre 911 America. When I realized this anniversary was on the way, I knew I had to bring in my friend and colleague Taffy Besar. Taffy is a features writer at the New York Times magazine. She has reported and written heartbreaking stories and hilarious stories and some of the best celebrity profiles in existence. She is also the author of two novels herself, Flechman is in trouble and Long Island Compromise, the latter of which was deeply influenced by The Corrections. In fact, Taffy loves The Corrections so much that she says that she has read it more regularly than she is willing to admit. Although I think she's going to admit it here. Taffy, thank you for joining us.
>> 谢谢你邀请我。我觉得，你怎么能不讨论这本书成为了美国黄金时刻高潮的定调之作呢——那个时刻在9月10日戛然而止。而且它充满了那些过着安逸生活、在经济大好的年代成长起来的人面对旧问题的焦虑。它是你能用来理解X世代究竟从何而来的最佳读物。
Original English >> Thank you for having me. I feel like how could you not discuss that this book became the defining book of the climax of America's golden moment which ended on September 10th and and it is it is filled with the anxieties of people who had had an easy life who came of age in a great economy of old problems. It is the best book you could use to understand where generation X came from.
### 关于小说核心与故事梗概 >> 在我们讨论它所代表的一切之前，我觉得我们应该先聊聊书里都是些什么人，这本书讲了什么。这是一场全程剧透的对话。这——
Original English >> Before we talk about all the things that it represents, I think we should just talk a little bit about who the people are in the book, what the book is about, this is a full spoiler conversation. The
>> 你早就全盘剧透了。塔菲，我们简单聊聊它是关于什么的。这是一部关于美国的作品，一部关于药物的作品，一部关于性的作品，一部关于金钱的作品，关于许许多多的事情。但从核心来看，它是一部关于家庭的作品。跟我们说说这个家庭吧。
Original English >> you've had your you've had all spoilers all the time. Taffy, let's talk briefly about what it's about. It's a book about America. It's a book about medication. It's a book about sex. It's a book about money. It's a book about so many things. But at its heart, it is a book about a family. Tell us about this family.
>> 好的。这本书讲的是兰伯特（Lambert）一家。他们来自圣朱迪（St. Jude），感觉那地方肯定就是密苏里州的圣路易斯。他们算是一个核心家庭，由父亲阿尔弗雷德（Alfred/Albert）、母亲伊妮德（Enid）以及三个孩子加里（Gary）、奇普（Chip）和丹妮丝（Denise）组成。故事确实关于美国，确实关于金钱，确实关于性，确实关于羞耻、不安全感和恐惧。它关乎我们为了纠正自己觉得过去做过的事情、加诸我们身上的事情以及我们的生活方式而采取的举措。但归根结底，它主要讲述的是一个希望三个孩子能回圣朱迪老家过最后一个圣诞节的女人的故事。
Original English >> Okay. This book is about the Lambert family. They are from St. Jude, which feels like it must be St. Louis, Missouri. They are a sort of nuclear family of father, mother Albert and Enid, and three children, Gary, Chip, and Denise. The story is, yes, it's about America. Yes, it's about money. Yes, it's about sex. Yes, it's about shame and insecurity and fear. It is about the things we do to correct what we feel we did in the past, what was done to us, how we live. But mostly it is a book about a woman who wants her three children to come home to St. Jude for one last Christmas.
>> 说到这里我就忍不住要崩溃了，因为这么概括简直太搞笑了，一旦翻开它，这就好比说《纳尼亚传奇》讲的是一个衣橱一样。你翻开它，爬了进去。读这本书的时候——你问我，昨晚你给我发短信说：“把你画了线的内容都带过来。”我就很抓狂，心想：“你本来应该早点叫我画线的，因为我一开始读这本书，我就真的进入了一种出神状态。”我更容易把这本书形容为我身上的一种疾病，它会潜伏起来，然后又会发作。比如你的朋友吉尔伯特打电话对你说：“你想和我一起录这期关于《纠正》的播客吗？”病情发作了。我说：“好。”然后我就走向最近的放着《纠正》的书架，因为我有六本。可以说在每个房间你都能找到《纠正》，发作期间甚至洗手间里都有。我开始阅读，整个人就变成了另一个样子。但你问我这本书是讲什么的，其实刚才说的那些并不能代表这本书的全部。
Original English >> And and at that point is where I crumble because to say that is almost hilarious because you open it up. It is like saying Narnia is about a closet. Like it is it is it is you open it up and you climb in. When I read this book, you asked me, you texted me last night and you said, "Bring in anything you've underlined." And I got upset and I was like, "You should have told me to underline because when I start this book, I do I go into a trance." And I would more easily describe this book as a disease I have that goes dormant and then there are flare-ups. Like your friend Gilbert calls you and says, "Do you want to be on this podcast about the corrections with me?" Flare up. And I say, "Okay." And I make my way over to the closest bookshelf that contains the corrections because I have six copies. So in like every room you could find the corrections and during flare-ups in the bathroom and I start reading and I become a different person. But you ask me what the book is about and that's that's not what the book is about.
>> 所以，我们初次见到阿尔和伊妮德时，他们正准备参加北欧游乐航线（Nordic Pleasure Lines）的秋景游轮游。嗯，他们打算在纽约停一下，和两个孩子吃午饭，然后去坐游轮。阿尔正饱受帕金森病引发的痴呆症折磨。而伊妮德无法理解为什么他们就不能做一个正常的家庭。我每次读这本书——我跟你制片人说我不知道读了多少遍，因为要是告诉你读了多少遍，再告诉你我至今还没读过《米德尔马契》，那可真是让我极度——20——
Original English >> So, we meet Al and Enid as they are preparing to go on a Nordic Pleasure Lines fall color cruise. Um, they're going to stop in New York, have lunch with two of their children, and then go on this cruise. And Al is in the throws of dementia as a result of his Parkinson's. And Enid cannot understand why they can't just be a normal family. M every time I read this book and I told your producer I didn't know how many times because to tell you how many times and to tell you I still haven't read Middle March is to my great 20
>> 这已经是——这已经是第20遍了？
Original English >> this was this was the 20th
>> 这是第20遍。
Original English >> this was the 20th time
>> 从头读到尾？
Original English >> beginning to end
>> 那差不多是一年一次了，差不多每年读一次，这并不是什么坏事，这是件很棒的事。我每年都看《大白鲨》，就像——
Original English >> that's that's like once a year that's or once almost every year that's not the worst thing that's a great thing I watch Jaws every year like
>> 那也就90分钟左右。
Original English >> that's like 90 minutes
>> 接近两小时，不过我明白你的意思。
Original English >> it's it's closer than two hours but I see your point.
>> 我明白你的意思。
Original English >> I see your point.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 是啊，这本书有将近600页。
Original English >> Yeah. This book is almost 600 pages.
>> 是的，是的。
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> 而且我阅读速度不快，我是一个容易气馁的读者，我还有其他东西要读。
Original English >> And I'm not a fast reader and I'm a demoralized reader and I have other things to read.
### 初读《纠正》的经历 >> 额，所以你读了20遍。我们回溯到第一次吧。19次之前的第一次阅读是在什么时候？
Original English >> Um, so you've read it 20 times. Let's go back to the first time. When was the first time that you read this book 19 times ago?
>> 那是……那是2001年11月。当时我在我男朋友保罗（Paul）家里。保罗是我遇到我丈夫之前的最后一个男朋友。我当时闲躺着，那是个星期六。他也写作。他拿过这本书对我说：“你绝不会相信这书有多好。”然后他把书递给了我。我就这么读了起来。那是我第一次进入那种出神状态。我有大概四天没下床。就像太阳升起又落下，人们走进来又走出去，一切都像是在延时快进镜头里一样。
Original English >> It was It was November 2001. I was at the home of my boyfriend Paul. Paul was the last boyfriend I had before I met my husband. And I was lying around. It was a Saturday. And he was a writer, too. And he takes this book and he says, "You will not believe how good this is." And he hands it to me. And I just start. And that is the first time I go into the trance. I do not leave the bed for like four days. Like like the sun comes up and goes down and and people walk in and out and it's on a speed up camera.
>> 没错，就像缩时摄影一样，我根本放不下这本书。
Original English >> Yeah. There's like a time lapse and I can't put this book down.
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> 然后我下定决心，有朝一日我也要写一部小说。这就是我的决定。我决定自己想成为一名作家。我当时刚被我的第一份杂志社工作解雇。我是被一家肥皂剧杂志解雇的，因此，前途并不明朗，看不到自己能在——
Original English >> And I decide that one day I want to write a novel. That's what I decide. I decide that I want to be a writer. I had recently been fired from my first magazine job. I was fired from a job at a soap opera magazine and as a result it was not clear that I had a bright future
>> 在文学界，在文学上有前途。
Original English >> in the letters in letters.
>> 你当时是那么想的吗？
Original English >> Is that is that how you thought of it?
>> 是的。嗯，在这之前我刚读完《美国牧歌》（American Pastoral）。在那之前我一直在读经典，因为我上的是犹太宗教学校（yeshiva），我觉得我们在文学方面没有做好走入广阔世界的准备。所以当时我一直在努力补课莎士比亚，补课各种作品。我当时刚开始——我大概25岁——我刚开始接触现代图书。所以我读了《美国牧歌》，然后读了这本。我心想，哇，书本太神奇了，但随后发现并不全都是这样。这两本书是我不断重读的书，但《纠正》始终是独一无二的那一本。
Original English >> Yes. Um, right before this I had read American Pastoral. Before that I was reading classics because I had gone to a yeshiva where I felt that we were not like prepared to go out into the world literature-wise. So I was trying to catch up on Shakespeare, on everything. And I had just started I was like 25 and I had just started reading like modern books. So I read American Pastoral and then I read this and I thought wow books are amazing but then it wasn't true. These two books are the books that I kept coming back to but the corrections is is the one.
>> 是吗？它让你看不进去别的书了吗？
Original English >> Yeah. Did it ruin books for you?
>> 算是彻底破坏了我读其他书的体验吧。它某种程度上成了一把标尺，我拿它来衡量所有其他的书，而没有一本真正——很多书很不错，有时我会觉得这写得挺好，但我们在这里究竟想表达什么呢？
Original English >> It sort of ruined books for me. It's sort of it's sort of the book I judge all the other books against and none of them really a lot of them are good and sometimes I think this is good but what are we doing here?
>> 是啊。
Original English >> Yeah,
>> 这本书是带着如此强烈的紧迫感写出来的，是在一种极度健谈的狂热状态下写就的。我现在把所有的书分成两类：这位作者只是在写一部小说，还是这位作者迫切需要让我知晓某件事？而《纠正》正是迫切地需要让你知道某件事。
Original English >> this was written with such urgency. It was written in a hyperverbal fever. And I divide all the books now into is this author just writing a novel or does this author need me to know something? And the corrections needs you to know something.
>> 它迫切需要让你知道什么？
Original English >> What does it need you to know?
>> 它迫切需要让你知道家庭是如何互相伤害的。
Original English >> It needs you to know how families hurt each other.
>> 这是在这本书写出来之前我们所不知道的吗？我们不知道——
Original English >> Is this something we didn't know before this book was written? We didn't know
>> 确切地说，这本书的结构方式是深入到家庭中这多个视角里，所有这五个视角，通常——
Original English >> exactly the way the book is structured is it goes into these multiple points of view in the family all these five points of view and usually
### 视角的接力与复仇晚宴 阿尔弗雷德和伊妮德在他们那一章里，有点像在进行视角的接力赛。他们共用一个章节，等到他们登上了游轮，阿尔弗雷德已经陷入了失智的折磨中，他产生幻觉，觉得有一大团粪便在嘲弄他。顺便说一句，
Original English Allen Enid sort of have a like like a a relay race of the um of the point of view in their section. They share a section and by the time they get on the cruise, Alfred is in the throws of dementia and he is hallucinating that a giant turd is mocking him. And by the way,
>> 我把这部分给忘了。我都不知道怎么会——
Original English >> I forgot about this part. I don't know how
>> 这本书写得太好了，以至于读到那一幕发生的时候，你的感觉就是：“行吧，我完全没疑问了。” 然后他有这么一段闪回，那段闪回讲的是他有一次出差，接着直接引出他回到家，而他刚到家所做的事就是碰见了一个邻居，透露了一些消息。呃，阿尔弗雷德是个道德感极强的人，时刻都在引经据典。 嗯。
Original English >> this book is so good that by the time that happens, you're like, "Yes, like I have no questions anymore." and he has this flashback and the flashback is about a time he went on a business trip and it leads directly into his arrival at home and what he does at his arrival is he bumps into a neighbor gives him some information. Um Al is a very moral man, quotes all the time. Mhm.
>> 嗯，他给了这个邻居一条消息，他知道那个邻居会拿它去搞内幕交易，但他虚荣心作祟，非得让别人知道自己是掌握内情的。他走进家门，生自己的气，气自己竟然干了那种事，因为他道德感那么强。 他的妻子怀着孕。两个孩子回了家。他对妻子心怀怨恨，妻子也对他心怀怨恨。他说：“我走的时候，唯一交代你做的事就是把这堆杂志清理掉。” 而伊妮德心想：“你交代我做的事可不止这一件。你还让我抚养孩子、洗衣服、开车送他们去上游泳课，做这所有的一切，期间你甚至都没打个电话问候我一声，你出差离家11天之前，甚至都没亲我一下道别。” 于是，她给他做了 “复仇晚宴”。这里是大写的。复仇晚宴。这一幕就是这样的。太恶心了。是猪肝炒甜菜叶。 而在这一章里，各部分本是以视角划分的，但在这一个段落里，全家人仿佛拥有一种共同意识，你从一段跳到下一段，再到下一段，不断进入他们的视角。简直是一场绝技大秀。你简直不敢相信自己正在读的内容。我今天早上重读了一遍。吉尔伯特，真是多谢你了啊。搞得我对自己的写作彻底丧失了信心。 而你看到的是一切皆为反应。你对待一个人的方式，是对某件与他们毫不相干的事做出的反应。这可以说是他——你以为结局是他对一个家庭最宽容的同理心。但在这一个瞬间，他告诉了你每个人当时都在经历什么，以及他们为什么会那样表现。还有就是，每个人的行为所造成的受害者，并没有义务去理解这些。但我们就是这样彼此伤害的。而且我觉得我们以前并不知道这一点。我觉得我们以前并不知道，在一个彼此相爱的完整家庭闭环里，人们是如何彼此伤害的。之后有这么一个时刻，你走出这栋房子，看向所有其他人家，我不知道有谁从未有过这种感觉：在别家亮着灯火的窗户里，住着一个正常的家庭，而你的家庭是不正常的。面对你的家庭并不正常这个事实，你该怎么办呢？明白我们是如何彼此伤害的，会有帮助吗？我不知道。 在这遍阅读中——这遍是你促成的——它是如此令人惊叹，
Original English >> Um, he gives this neighbor a piece of information that he knows the neighbor is going to use to insider trade, but it's his ego that needs people to know that he knows something. He walks into the house angry at himself that he's done that because he's so moral. His wife is pregnant. The two children come home. He's resentful at the wife. The wife is resentful at him. He he says, "I left and the only thing I asked you to do was clear this pile of magazines." And Enid thinks, "That's not all you asked me to do. You asked me to also raise the children and do the laundry and drive them to their swimming lessons and do all of this stuff without even you calling to check in on me, without even you giving me a kiss goodbye before you went on the road for 11 days." So, she makes him The dinner of revenge. This is capitalized. Dinner of revenge. And this is what this scene is. So gross. It is liver and beet greens. And in this the sections are divided up by point of view, but in this section the family has a shared consciousness and you go from one paragraph to the next to the next to the next where you are occupying their point of view. It is a tour divorce. You cannot believe what you're reading. I reread it this morning. Thanks for nothing, Gilbert. Completely demoralized of my own writing efforts. And what you see is how everything is a reaction. The way you treat someone is a reaction to something they had nothing to do with. It is his most you think the ending is his most forgiving empathy of a family. But in this moment, he tells you what everyone was going through and why they behaved that way. And also that it wasn't up to the victims of everyone's behavior to understand that. But this is how we hurt each other. And I don't think we did know that. I don't think we did know how people hurt each other in a closed loving circuit of an unbroken family. And there's this moment afterward where you leave the house and you go to all the other houses and I don't know anybody who has never had this feeling where in the glowing windows of the other homes is a normal family and your family is not normal. What are you supposed to do with the fact that your family isn't normal? Does it help to know how we hurt each other? I don't know. It is astounding in this read which you caused
>> 嗯，完成得如此——
Original English >> um so done so
>> 我还欠我家人一个道歉——
Original English >> and owe my family an apology for
### 狂溢的现实主义与滑稽感 >> 在这一遍，在这一遍阅读中，我也许是第一次注意到它是多么荒诞而滑稽。意思是，我一直都知道它很有趣，那种现实主义是如此洋溢。我甚至都不知道那该叫什么。狂溢的现实主义。 不过我能给你读一句吗？
Original English >> in this in this read the thing I noticed maybe for the first time is how absurdly funny it is. Meaning I always knew it was a funny sort of the realism is so exuberant. I don't even know what it's called. exuberant realism. But can I read you a line?
>> 行啊，当然。请读。
Original English >> Yeah, of course. Please.
>> 我给你念一句。在这里，在这一段里，他们正在纽约吃午餐。奇普为了去办一些极其复杂的事已经溜走了。呃，不过最小的孩子兼唯一的女儿丹妮丝在那里。她爱她的父亲。她的父亲也爱她。她的母亲处于——母亲非常善于操纵她，正竭尽全力想让她理解自己照顾这个帕金森病人的全部痛苦，并且还想努力继续过正常的生活；而且母亲又一次感到无比委屈，因为阿尔弗雷德退休了，他们却无法拥有——他听不见，在这里他描述了当其他所有人都在说的时候，阿尔弗雷德却根本没有的那些爱好： “丹妮丝，他是在地板上爬。他非但不去坐一把舒服漂亮的直背椅——医生说了他坐直背椅很重要——反而在地板上爬。他本来就不该坐那么久的。赫奇佩思医生说了，他的病情一点都不严重。只要他肯出去稍微活动一下，‘用进废退’，每个医生都这么说。戴夫·舒姆珀特的健康问题比你爸多十倍。他做结肠造口手术都15年了。他只有一个肺，还装着心脏起搏器。看看他和玛丽·贝丝做的所有那些事。他们刚从斐济浮潜回来。” 我都不知道自己以前怎么漏掉了这点，她竟然说一个做了结肠造口手术、只有一个肺的家伙在斐济浮潜，你懂吧。 所以，我每次读它，感受都不一样。大部分时候我都对它心生敬畏。而这一次我本下定决心要以专业眼光来对待它。我想的是，这是我成为出版过两部小说的作家以来第一次重读它。这也是我第一次受邀上你这档高级播客，吉尔伯特。我要表现得像个正常人一样。所以我开读时还在想，这真的有那么重要吗？然后我就在它的分量下崩溃了，心里想着，对不起。我对着空气感叹道，对不起。是的，这非常——这太不可思议了。
Original English >> I'm going to read you a line. In this in this they are they are at the lunch in New York. Chip has absconded in order to do very complicated things. Um but Denise, the youngest and the only daughter is there. She loves her father. Her father loves her. her mother is in it is very manipulative of her and trying very hard to get her to understand all of her suffering taking care of this man with Parkinson's and trying to still live a normal life and again she is just so agrieved that Al retires and they can't have he doesn't here and in this he describes the hobbies that Al does not have while everybody else says, "Denise, he is crawling across the floor. Rather than sit in a nice comfortable, straight back chair, which the doctor says it's important that he sit in, he crawls across the floor. He shouldn't be sitting so much to begin with. Dr. Hedgepath says his condition is not at all severe. If he would just get out and do a little use it or lose it, that's what every doctor says." Dave Schumpert has had 10 times more health problems than dad. He's had a colostomy for 15 years. He's got one lung and a pacemaker. And look at all the things he and Mary Beth are doing. They just got back from snorkeling in Fiji. I don't know how I missed it that she is saying that a guy with a colostomy and one lung is snorkeling in Fiji, you know. So, every time I read it, it's different for me. Most of the time I'm cowed by it. And this time I was determined to be a professional about it. I like this is the first time I'm reading it since I became a two-time novelist. This is the first time I'm read I'm asked to do this on your fancy podcast, Gilbert. I'm going to be a normal person. So I went in thinking, is this even that imp? And then I collapsed underneath the weight of it and was like, I'm sorry. I sang into the air, I'm sorry. Yes, this is very this is incredible.
我就知道你是请来上节目的绝佳人选，塔菲。20遍确实很多。我只读过这本书两次。
Original English I knew you were the perfect person to have on Taffy. 20 is a lot. I've only read this book twice.
>> 但你读——但你写过它的书评，而我没有。你想——你想聊聊那个吗？
Original English >> But you read but you wrote a review of it and I did not. Do you want Do you want to talk a little about that?
### 初读《纠正》与书评往事 >> 我……我写过。我写……我第一次读这本书也是在2001年的10月或11月。呃，我当时在上大学。呃，不好意思暴露年龄了。我那时在为学校的一份非主流报纸工作。我正在英国留学。我在“9·11”一周后飞离了纽约，对此深感愧疚。但我去英国留学了，我在那里住了一个学年，我人在那里，而我供职的报纸要么是向我约稿，要么是我主动提议写一篇这本书的书评，一篇迟到的书评。
Original English >> I I did. I wrote the first time I read this book was also in October or November of 2001. Uh I was in college. Uh sorry to date myself. And I was working for the school alternative newspaper. I was studying abroad in England. I flew out of New York a week after 911 and felt very guilty about it. But I went to study abroad in England where I lived for an academic year and I was there and the newspaper that I was working for either asked for or I pitched a review of this book, a late review.
>> 嗯，但我买不起崭新的精装本。精装本很贵，尤其是如果你是个身无分文的大学生的话。所以我——呃，连续三天直接去了我在英国住的那个坎特伯雷镇上的水石书店，我就直接坐在地板上读一本《纠正》，在笔记本上记笔记，而且我会——
Original English >> Um, but I couldn't afford to buy a new hard cover. Hard covers are expensive, especially if you're a broke student. So I went uh to the water stes in the town I was living in England in Canterbury for like three days straight and I just sat on the floor and I read a copy of the corrections taking notes in a notebook and I would
>> 拼成 C-O-U-R-R-E——
Original English >> spelled C O U R R E
>> 尽我所能地纠正，然后我提交了这篇书评，这篇书评我还不得不查阅了一下。我走到我家的窄小夹层里，翻出了那份难看的复印件。我——
Original English >> correction I could and then I filed this review which I had to to look up. I went into my crawl space and I pulled out the ugly copy. I
>> “西方与心怀不满的《纠正》”。“弗兰岑描摹凄凉的家庭肖像”。吉尔伯特，你给了它一个差评啊。
Original English >> western and malcontented the corrections. Franen paints bleak family portrait. Gilp, you gave it a bad review.
>> 不，不，不。我给的是——我给的是一篇非常正面的好评。
Original English >> No, no, no. I gave it a I gave it a very positive review.
>> 因为你喜欢凄凉风格。我给忘了。
Original English >> Cuz you love bleak. I forgot.
>> 我喜欢凄凉风格。
Original English >> I love bleak.
>> 你喜欢凄凉风格。
Original English >> You love bleak.
>> 我爱《荒凉山庄》。呃，它太压抑了。太压抑了。但我当时是个大学生。我当时根本不知道自己到底在胡说八道些什么。我不知道有一份工作是怎么回事，更别提去应对日渐衰老的父母了，更别提去应对这本书里各家成员所必须应对的所有那些事情了。所以时隔25年重新回过头来，现在再读它，我并不觉得它好笑。里面确实有搞笑的地方，但我发现它无比悲惨。我只是发现自己很多次都处于几乎要哭出来的边缘——
Original English >> I love bleak house. Um, it was so depressing. So depressing. But I was a college student. I didn't know what the hell I was talking about. I didn't understand what it was to have a job, let alone deal with aging parents, let alone deal with all of the things that the various family members in this book have to deal with. And so coming back to it after 25 years and and reading it now, I did not find it funny. There were parts in there that are funny, but I found it so incredibly tragic. I just found myself sort of on the verge of tears so many times
>> 在它收尾的时候。我们待会儿可以聊聊结局。我当时的感觉就是，这是——我都不知道该笑还是该哭，或者是同时又哭又笑。
Original English >> when it ends. We could talk about the ending in a bit. I was just like, this is the I don't know whether to laugh or to cry or both at the same time.
>> 但难道你不同样认为每本书都该这样吗？你本就——你读每本书都应该感到精疲力竭、心潮澎湃、心惊胆战，百感交集。比如你接下来打算——你接下来打算读什么，吉尔伯特？
Original English >> But don't you also think every book should be this? You're you should be exhausted and exhilarated and terrified and everything from every book. Like what are you going to what are you going to read next, Gilbert?
>> 《米德尔马契》。听说过吗？
Original English >> Middle March. Heard of it?
>> 没听过。
Original English >> Not me.
>> 好的。行吧。我猜你在那之后没把所有的名著都读完——
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess you didn't read all the classics after your
>> 我确实没读。呃，我们能稍微聊聊其中的一些角色吗？
Original English >> I did not. Um, can we talk a little bit about um some of the characters?
>> 哦，当然可以。我最喜欢的角色，让我想一下。总是奇普。从来都是奇普。
Original English >> Oh, sure. My favorite character, let me think for a second. It's always Chip. It is always Chip.
>> 奇普是最小的。
Original English >> Chip is the youngest.
>> 奇普是最小的儿子。
Original English >> Chip is the youngest son.
>> 他是中间的孩子。还有他的绝望，他的聪明才智——这对他毫无自省能力完全起不到任何改善作用。他的需求，他的羞耻感，他是
Original English >> He is the middle child. and his desperation, his intelligence, which has no impact on his inability to be reflective. His needs, his shame, he is
令人心碎，他滑稽可笑，他活力四射，他充满冲劲，他具备了一个角色该有的一切特质。
Original English heartbreaking, he is hilarious, he is dynamite, he is momentum, he is everything a character should be.
>> 嗯。我能理解奇普的吸引力。我是说，虽然我已经有25年没读这本书了，但书中让我记忆犹新的一个画面或时刻，就是他在准备为前来看望他的父母做一顿丰盛的午餐时，把三文鱼塞进了皮裤里。他买不起那块他误以为会很便宜的三文鱼，结果那块三文鱼切片大概要84美元左右。他要做三文鱼配酸模草什么的，他无法想象你可以做……他太执迷了，非要搞得很隆重，比如葡萄酒必须非同寻常。他试图给这些人留下深刻印象，而这些人根本不会被……我只是忘了他是多么混乱，嗯。我也忘了他试图写剧本的那段波折有多好笑了。
Original English >> Mhm. I I can see the appeal of Chip. I mean, not having read the book in 25 years, the one image or moment I remembered vividly from the book is him putting the salmon down his leather pants as he tries to he's trying to make a nice lunch for his visiting parents. He can't afford to buy what he mistakenly thinks will be a very cheap salmon, but ends up being like an $84 sort of cut of salmon. He's making salmon and sorrels and like he can't imagine that you can make pos like he h he's so deluded that he has to make an elaborate like the wine has to be incredible. He's trying to impress these people who will not be impressed by I just forgot how chaotic um he was. I also forgot how funny the section about or his travails trying to write a screenplay were.
>> 是的。但他回想起——或者说他在开场那场戏里被正要离开他的女友告知——他用了……比如里面出现了42处“乳房”，
Original English >> Yes. But his recollection that he or his being told by his girlfriend who is leaving him in this first scene that he used like there are 42 instances of breasts,
>> “乳房”这个词，
Original English >> the word breast,
>> “乳房”这个词，或者相关的舞台提示，或者关于它们的对话，
Original English >> the word breast or the screen direction of them or the dialogue about them
>> 他就把它们像列表一样记在脑海里。这又是这本书令人难以置信的另一个地方：尽管它作为文学作品极其严肃，但它在某种程度上打破了自己的形式。
Original English >> and he just remembers them in a list. And that's that's like another incredible thing about this book is that it for all its seriousness as literature, it sort of explodes its own form.
说到这里，如果我可以回到“复仇晚餐”那一幕，有一个时刻奇普再也听不见伊妮德在说什么了。所以他听到的全变成了代词、连词、重读动词之类的，就像是规则荡然无存的那种爆发——即便在写这本将为下一代作家界定规则的书时也是如此。
Original English By doing that, if I could go back to the dinner of revenge, there's a point where Chip can't hear Enid talking anymore. So he only hears it as like pronoun, conjunction, emphatic verb, like the sort of explosion of there not being any rules even as you're writing the book that will define the rules for the next generation of writers.
### 《纠正》中的“纠正”与小说结局 >> 接下来，塔菲和我将探讨是什么让《纠正》的结局如此出色。 塔菲，我也记不得书中究竟出现了多少次“correction”（纠正）或“corrections”（纠正）这个词了，这对我来说很有意思，因为在过去几天的一点背景了解中，我发现了一件你可能早就知道的事情，那就是这原本是一本完全不同的书的书名，讲述的是另一群人的故事。那本书可能与监狱有关，这也是为什么“correction”（矫正）曾是……
Original English >> Coming up, Taffy and I talk about what makes the ending of The Corrections so darn good. Taffy, I also didn't remember how many instances of the word correction or corrections there were in the book, which is interesting to me because in in doing a little research over the past few days, I learned something which you probably already knew, which is that this was a title for a completely different book that was about a different set of characters. Possibly it was about prison, which is why correction was a
>> 对，比如私有化。
Original English >> right like the privatization.
>> 是的。把它拿过来，让它契合“corrections”这个词所有不同的实例、定义和含义——无论是金融层面的回调纠偏（这里面谈到了很多20世纪末的美国资本主义），无论是道德层面的纠偏、个人的纠偏，嗯，还是真正剧本上的修改纠错，
Original English >> Yeah. and to bring it in and to have it sort of fit all the different instances, definitions, meanings of the word corrections, whether it's a financial correction, there's a lot about sort of late 20th century American capitalism in here, whether it's about moral correction, personal correction, um corrections on a literal script,
>> 一种名为“Correct”的药物。
Original English >> a medication called correct.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 就像他根本不在乎一样。
Original English >> Like it he he doesn't care.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 他就像在说：“这里，还有这里。”
Original English >> He's like, "Here, here."
>> 太棒了。这种事情，如果有人告诉你某位作者给书起了个名字，然后把那个词零星散布在整本书里，你会觉得这太陈腐了、太刻意了，你懂的，就像他们在电影里说了10次片名一样。
Original English >> It's it's it's great. And it's it's one of those things where you feel like if someone told you that an author named a book something and then speckled that word throughout the book, feel like that's hackneed, that's too much, that's, you know, that's like they said the title in the movie
>> 10次。嗯，但它奏效了，而且让它以这种方式显得很有凝聚力，
Original English >> 10 times. Um, but it works and it makes it feel sort of cohesive in this way,
>> 对吧？它让它感觉既是一条讯息也是一本书，既是一个故事也是一个理念，它贯穿于所有事物之中。嗯，戴维·福斯特·华莱士在读了可能是校样稿后——我记不清了——给他写了一封信。他觉得那样太刻意了。而且……
Original English >> right? It makes it feel both like a message and a book, a story and an idea, like it is there throughout everything. Um, David Foster Wallace wrote a letter to him after he read maybe the galley, maybe I I can't remember. And he thought he thought that was too much. And
>> 哦，戴维·福斯特·华莱士觉得太刻意了。
Original English >> oh, David Foster Wallace thought it was too much.
>> 是的，戴维·戴维·福斯特·华莱士。
Original English >> Yeah, David David Foster Wallace.
>> 戴维·“太刻意”·福斯特·华莱士。名字里甚至连两个词都打不住。
Original English >> David too much Foster Wallace. couldn't even do two names.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 福斯特·华莱士觉得太刻意了。更令我钦佩的是，乔纳森·弗兰岑显然并不在乎。他依然把它保留了下来。你可以在这本书的每一个句子里、在每一处细致入微的观察中看到这种自信。上一次有人放慢节奏给你呈现这样的描写、这些让你沉浸其中、让你觉得有人在好好利用你时间的句子，是什么时候？自从读了它之后，我对后来读到的很多文学作品的抱怨，就是面对那些单薄的句子，而我如今已经知道另一种作品是可能存在的。 我能指出几个我在这里快速过一下的句子或引言吗？嗯，
Original English >> Foster Wallace thought it was too much. And to my further adoration, Jonathan Franen apparently didn't care. He still included it. And you can see the confidence of this book in every single sentence, every closely observed. When is the last time someone slowed down to give you these descriptions, these sentences that would absorb you and that would make you feel like someone was using your time. Well, my objection to to a lot of literature that I read since is like a flimsy sentence when I now knew the other thing could exist. Can I just point out a couple of lines or quotes that I go through go through a real lightning round here. Um,
>> 第一条：“在养育孩子的过程中，你对自己所发现的那些东西，并不总是令人愉悦或讨人喜欢的。”
Original English >> number one, what you discovered about yourself in raising children wasn't always agreeable or attractive.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 精彩极了。
Original English >> Fantastic
>> 嗯，“关于阿尔弗雷德的一个古怪事实是，对他而言，爱不是接近的问题，而是保持距离的问题。她比奇普和加里更懂这一点。因此，她对他感到有一种特别的责任。”这让我隐隐感到有些难过。
Original English >> um the odd truth about Alfred was that love for him was a matter not of approaching but of keeping away. She understood this better than Chip and Gary did. And so she felt a particular responsibility for him. Sort of crushed me just a tiny bit.
>> 我的天啊。
Original English >> Oh my gosh.
>> 嗯，非常幽默。有人对奇普说话，他说：“其影响令人不安，但这项强大的新技术是不可阻挡的。”这可以作为我们时代的座右铭，你不觉得吗？极其切合当下。然后，当然就是结局了，我现在要读其中的一部分。这是在描述阿尔弗雷德最后的时刻。正如你所说，阿尔弗雷德一直遭受着帕金森病引起的痴呆症折磨，他正处于生命的最后阶段。“他蜷缩在床上，气息微弱。他对什么都无动于衷，对什么都没有反应，除了在伊妮德试图把冰屑放进他嘴里时，坚决地摇了一次头。他唯一从未忘记的事情就是如何拒绝。她所有的纠正都付诸东流。他和她初次见到他的那天一样固执。然而当他死去，当她吻了吻他的额头，与丹妮丝和加里一起走入温暖的春夜时，她觉得现在没有任何东西能抹杀她的希望了。绝无可能。她已经75岁了，她要对自己的生活做出一些改变。”
Original English >> Um, very funny. Someone talking to Chip. He says, "The implications are disturbing, but there's no stopping this powerful new technology." That could be the motto for our age, don't you think? Extremely relevant. And then, of course, the ending, which I'm going to read part of now. And this is describing Alfred's last moments. Alfred, as you said, has been suffering from dementia as as a result of Parkinson's, and he's in his final moments. He lay curled up on the bed and barely breathed. He moved for nothing and responded to nothing except to shake his head emphatically once, if Enid tried to put an ice chip in his mouth. The one thing he never forgot was how to refuse. All of her correction had been for not. He was as stubborn as the day she'd met him. And yet when he was dead, when she'd pressed her lips to his forehead and walked out with Denise and Gary into the warm spring night, she felt that nothing could kill her hope now. Nothing. She was 75 and she was going to make some changes in her life.
>> 还有比这更好的吗？好的。是的。
Original English >> Is there Is there anything better? Okay. Yes.
>> 我的天。
Original English >> Holy cow.
>> 我的天。你不可能……好吧，我要用第一段来考考你了。嗯，
Original English >> Holy cow. You could not Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you with the first paragraph. Well,
>> 我们能先回到刚才那段并评论一下吗？
Original English >> can we go back to that comment on this first?
>> 确实是。她得到了她想要的圣诞节，但结果是毁灭性的。她得到了她的圣诞节，然后他的病情就急转直下，接着在这当中……其残酷之处，其美丽之处，以及其宽恕之处。我想我从你刚才读的那一段、从书的结局中走出来，所想到的是：去爱一个人，就是要真正了解他们、描述他们。他从未忘记去拒绝，这一点耐人寻味。那就是那一下摇头。他拒绝了他这一事实。他太习惯于否认与克制了。他讨厌肝脏，却依然吃它。那仅有的一次对冰屑的拒绝。我不知道。你能说些什么呢？
Original English >> It is. She gets her Christmas but to devastating effect. She gets her Christmas and then his decline just becomes very steep and then in this the brutality of it, the beauty of it and the forgiveness of it. I guess I come away from that paragraph that you just read, from the ending from the book, thinking that to love somebody is to really know them and describe them. There is something about him never forgetting to refuse. That is the one shake of the head. the fact that he refuses him. He's so He's so used to denial. He hates liver and he still eats it. The one denial of the ice chip. I don't know. What do you What do you say?
>> 我的意思是，就它向你展示的阿尔弗雷德、向你展示的伊妮德而言，这是令人惊叹的。你注意到的那个细节，对我个人来说可能太熟悉了，
Original English >> I mean, it's amazing for what it tells you about Alfred, what it tells you about Enid. you know, the detail you pick up on possibly is too familiar to me as a person
>> 作为一个习惯在无可避免地说“好”之前先下意识地回绝事情的人。
Original English >> as someone who likes to to to sort of reflexively say no to things before I inevitably say yes.
>> 但同时在结尾处还有一种悲剧与希望交织的感觉，对吧？阿尔弗雷德不得不经历的一切是悲剧性的。他和伊妮德不得不共同度过这样的一生，几乎也是悲剧性的，因为你可以说：“哦，他们有了三个孩子，但作为一对夫妻，他们在一起的生活听起来并不是特别美妙。”然而她已经75岁了，就好像在说：“好吧，这件可怕的事情发生了。但现在，是的，
Original English >> But also this this sense of both tragedy and hope at the end there, right? It's tragic what Alfred has had to go through. It's almost tragic that he and Enid had to have this life together cuz you can say, "Oh, they had three kids, but their life together did not sound particularly wonderful as a couple." And yet she's 75 and it's like, "All right, this terrible thing happened. But now, yeah,
>> 也许现在我可以开始真正生活了，对吧？”
Original English >> maybe now I can start living, right?"
>> 这既充满希望，也许同时又是一种虚妄。我不知道。如果你回想一下她对自己初遇他时的描述：他有着男孩般英俊的相貌，但他嘴里吐出的话……等等，我想把那段找出来。
Original English >> And that's that's both hopeful and delusional, maybe at the same time. I don't know. If you go back to her description of having met him and that he had these boyish, handsome looks, but out of his mouth, wait, I want to find that.
>> 噢，不。不，
Original English >> Oh, no. No,
>> 我找到了点内容。
Original English >> I have something.
>> 你找到了吗？我找到了关于……等等，是关于他说了什么的吗？对。
Original English >> Do you have it? I have something that Wait, is it about what he said? Yeah.
>> 他们喝着热可可，他告诉她人活着就是为了受苦。他带她参加一家钢铁公司的圣诞派对，并告诉她聪明人注定要受愚蠢之人的折磨。
Original English >> They drank cocoa and he told her that human beings were born to suffer. He took her to a Steel Company Christmas party and told her that the intelligent were doomed to be tormented by the stupid.
>> 我知道。我知道。而她就像是……她只是选择去相信。她选择去相信他的外貌。她就是这么说的。而她——我也能感同身受——你在某人身上看到了一丝光芒，而在你们相处的其余岁月里，你就会一直说：“不，不，不。我以为你是那样的。我坚持认为你就是那样的。”他们来自那一代人， 还有……
Original English >> I know. I know. And she was like, she just chose to believe. She chose to believe his looks. That's what she says. And she, and I can relate to this, that you see a glimmer in someone. And for the rest of your time together, you're like, "No, no, no. I thought you were this. I insist that you were this." And they're from a generation and
>> 那个地方，
Original English >> and a place
>> 那个地方，还有那种宗教信仰。他们不会……他们是不会离婚的，
Original English >> and a place and a religion. and they are not they are not going to divorce
>> 而且她离开，你就像……她是书中可以说是最痛苦的人。她是最让人感到绝望的那个人，比如你觉得那些孩子
Original English >> and she leaves and you're h like she's sort of the most miserable person in the book. She is the one who feels the most hopeless like you feel that the children
是在与父母抗争，而到头来这本书讲的原是她的自由。
Original English are battling against the parents and then in the end the book turns out to have been about her freedom.
>> 跟我讲讲开篇吧，然后我想聊聊朋友和他本人。
Original English >> Tell me about the beginning and then I want to talk about friends and himself.
我来给你讲讲开篇，如果我一直讲个不停，你得叫停我，因为我会讲得入迷的。
Original English Let me tell you the beginning and then you'll have to stop me if I keep going cuz I'll be in a trance.
>> 好。
Original English >> Okay.
>> 好。
Original English >> Okay.
### 小说的开篇 >> “秋日大草原冷锋过境的疯狂。你能感觉得到。可怕的事情就要发生。太阳在空中低垂。微弱的光线。一颗渐冷的恒星。一阵接一阵的混乱狂风。树木躁动不安。气温骤降。万物皆有终结的整个北方信仰。这里的院子里没有孩童。阴影在发黄的结缕草上拉长。红栎、粉红栎和北美白栎把橡子像雨点般倾泻在没有房贷的房屋上。空荡荡的卧室里防风窗紧闭。干衣机单调的抽搐声。吹叶机带鼻音的争鸣。纸袋里熟透的本地苹果。阿尔弗雷德·兰伯特早晨用来刷柳条双人沙发的油漆刷上散发出的汽油味。下午三点是圣裘德这些老人政治郊区的危险时刻。阿尔弗雷德在从午餐起就一直睡着的蓝色大椅子里醒来。他睡过了午觉，而五点前都不会有新闻。这两个小时是滋生感染的鼻窦。”
Original English >> The madness of an autumn prairie cold front coming through. You could feel it. Something terrible was going to happen. The sun low in the sky. A minor light. A cooling star. Gust after gust of disorder. Trees restless. Temperatures falling. The whole northern religion of things coming to an end. No children in the yards here. Shadows lengthened on yellowing Zoa. Red oaks and pink oaks and swamp white oaks rained acorns on houses with no mortgage. Storm windows shuttered in the empty bedrooms. And the drone hiccups of a clothes dryer. The nasal contention of a leaf blower. The ripening of local apples in a paper bag. the smell of the gasoline with which Alfred Lambert had cleaned the paintbrush from his morning painting of the wicker love seat. 3 in the afternoon was a time of danger in these gerontocratic suburbs of St. Jude. Alfred had awakened in the great blue chair in which he'd been sleeping since lunch. He'd had his nap and there would be no news until 5:00. two hours were a sinus in which infections bred.
>> 哦，
Original English >> O,
>> 写得真好。
Original English >> that's good.
>> 就像你直接从自然进入到屋内，纸袋里熟透的苹果。这种把你带到室外的手法真的很有意思，历史上唯一一段出色的天气导语，一路带你走进去，直到你能闻到苹果熟透的气味。太不可思议了。
Original English >> Like you go from from nature right into the house, the apples ripening in a paper bag. It's an it's a really interesting method of taking you outside, the only good weather lead in history, bringing you in until you can smell an apple ripening. It's incredible.
>> 我觉得确实不可思议。开头很难写。对记者来说，故事的导语很难写。我敢肯定写小说的开头难度还要翻四倍。我想象不出他打磨了多少遍。我知道他在这本书上花了不少时间，正如我们所说，
Original English >> I think it is incredible. It's hard to write beginnings. It's hard to write a lead of a story for a journalist. I'm sure it's quadruply hard to write the lead of a novel. I can't imagine how many times he worked on this. I know he worked on this book for a while after having it, as we said,
>> 它曾以
Original English >> it was
>> 其他角色为核心。
Original English >> anchored by other characters.
>> 这些人曾是背景人物。
Original English >> These people were were background characters.
在他舍弃第一人称叙述者之前，这本书曾经有过一个第一人称叙述者。
Original English There was a a firsterson narrator of this book once before he did away with him.
而当他意识到这本书要以这个家庭为核心时，他在一两天内就写出了这篇类似三页纸的引子。
Original English And when he realized that this book was going to be about this family, he wrote the sort of three-page introduction in one or two days.
>> 干得相当漂亮。
Original English >> Pretty good work.
>> 是的，干得相当漂亮。
Original English >> Yeah, pretty good work.
### 乔纳森·弗兰岑与奥普拉风波 接下来，我们要讨论《纠正》的作者乔纳森·弗兰岑。
Original English Coming up, we're going to discuss the author of the corrections, Jonathan Fransen.
跟我们讲讲弗兰岑吧。我是说，这是他的第三部小说。他的处女作反响尚可，随后的第二部作品基本上反响平平。这本书一经出版几乎获得了一致好评。然后我们不得不聊聊这件事，尽管最终结局都挺好。
Original English Tell us about Fran. I mean, this was his third novel. He had a debut that did fine, a follow-up that kind of failed to launch. This book was almost universally praised upon its release. And then we have to talk about this even though it ended up all being fine in the end.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 然后
Original English >> And then
>> 最终结局挺好的。
Original English >> it ended up fine.
>> 最终结局挺好的。然后就发生了奥普拉那档子事，对吧？奥普拉为她的读书俱乐部挑选了这部小说。弗兰岑很矛盾。他在几场采访中表示，封面上有她的印章让他感到不适。这在他看来有点过于商业化了，而且他有种感觉，男性或许会因为把奥普拉读书俱乐部和女性读物联系在一起而远离这本书。
Original English >> It ended up being fine. And then the Oprah thing happened, right? Oprah selected the novel for her book club. Franen was conflicted. He said in a couple of interviews he was uncomfortable with having her seal on the cover. It sort of struck him as being overly corporate and he had the feeling that men maybe would stay away from the book because they associated the Oprah book club with books that were written for women.
>> 后来最终，这完全是她的权利，奥普拉取消了邀请他上节目讨论这本书的邀约。
Original English >> And then eventually, totally her right, Oprah rescended her invitation for him to appear on her show and discuss the book.
>> 嗯，九年后当她选中呃《自由》时，他们最终和解了。《自由》当时没留下什么芥蒂。
Original English >> Um, they eventually ended up making up nine years later when she picked uh freedom. Freedom didn't stick.
>> 所以，一切都挺好的。但这起事件一直伴随着他。我我都不知道大家是否还记得第二部分，也就是他们和解了之类的后续。
Original English >> So, it was all fine. But this incident has followed him. I I don't know if people sort of remember the second part which is like they made up and everything.
>> 大家记错了。上个周末我还在跟人聊起这件事，大家都记成了是奥普拉取消了他作为入选者的资格，其实她并没有。这本书依然被视为奥普拉选书。嗯，几年前我采访他时，
Original English >> People remember it wrong. I was talking to people about it this this past weekend and people remember it as Oprah rescended him as a choice which I she didn't. It is still considered an Oprah pick. Um when I interviewed him um a few years ago
>> 嗯，我采访的时间点并不是为了配合某本书的宣传。我做那次采访是因为我一直有这么个想法，那就是他曾经算是一个，你知道的，被互联网憎恶的人物。
Original English >> um which I did not do timed to a book. I did it timed to this thought I kept having which was that he had been a sort of uh you know loathed by the internet figure.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 形象就像那种最典型的白人男性小说家。
Original English >> As the the the primal white male novelist.
>> 但我渐渐发现，他对社交媒体、金钱和消费主义所说的一切都是对的。于是我去采访了他，为《纽约时报杂志》写了篇特写。当我们交谈时，我想我记得你描述的那两场采访——在我的记忆中那是一场采访，
Original English >> But I was finding that everything he said about social media, about money, about consumerism was right. So I I went to go to go interview him and I wrote a feature for the New York Times magazine and when we spoke I think I recall that those two those interview those two interviews you describe which may I in my recollection it's one interview
>> 也许是一场，比如像《新鲜空气》的那场采访，
Original English >> it might be one like a fresh air interview
>> 那发生在宣传周期的尾声，我认为如果不去理解几件事——那种成功必然会扭曲你的头脑。你在跑新书巡回宣传，九一一事件爆发，世界天翻地覆，你……我是说，也许他当时还在跑新书，我不清楚具体的时间线，但从我与他交谈的观察来看，
Original English >> it happened at the end of the cycle and I think that to not understand what a couple of things that kind of success must like must warp your brain. you are on book tour 9 the world ends you're I mean maybe he's still on book I don't know what the timing was but I think from my observation of speaking with him
他非常坦诚，他没有受访模式。当他觉得有些话不想见诸报端时，他会要求不公开记录，但他没有伪装模式。我和他在一起待了三天，通常如果一个人有伪装模式，到第一天结束时往往就露出来了。接受采访是一件很耗人的事。嗯，所以你的戒备心会降下来。我认为他当时只是在就“我想知道这对我意味着什么”这个想法随性发挥。我认为他为此遭到了不成比例的惩罚。这让我感到震惊，因为这居然成了《纠正》的故事。不过我确实好奇，在当时的新闻周期里，这在多大程度上成了许多人去读这本书的契机。
Original English he is very frank and he does not have an interviewed mode he'll go off the record when he thinks that it's something he doesn't want to see in print but he does not have a fake mode I spent three days with him usually if you do have like your fake mode comes out usually by the end of the first day. It's a it's an exhausting thing to be interviewed. Um so so your defenses would be down. I think that he was he was sort of just riffing on an idea of I wonder what this will mean to me. And I think he got punished for it in this in this disproportionate way. That makes me shocked that that is the story of the corrections. Though I do wonder how much in that news cycle going on, it became a a reason a lot of people read it.
>> 是的。是的。我是说，当时……
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was
>> 在那之前我从没听说过他。我不知道，你知道的，你当时在上大学。我当时……
Original English >> I had never heard of him before that. I don't you know, you were in college. I was
>> 噢，我完全不知道他是谁。
Original English >> Oh, I had no idea who he was.
>> 我简直不敢相信那是第三部小说。
Original English >> I couldn't believe that was a third novel.
### 文学、严肃性与社交媒体的脆弱 >> 这件事在某种程度上揭示了我们谈论文学的方式，关乎什么是文学？什么是通俗小说？作者对资本主义基础设施承担怎样的责任，你知道的，比如你应该对自己多大程度的成功投入其中？我认为这里面也有一种像X世代在讨论“这算不算背叛初衷”的意味？我觉得有很多诸如此类的东西在底层支撑着
Original English >> There's a part of it that exposes something about how we talk about literature, which about like what is literature? What is popular fiction? What is the responsibility of an author to the like the the capitalist infrastructure, you know, like how much should you be invested in your own success? I think there's also like a Gen X is is there like a sellout conversation happening here? Like there were I think a lot of that stuff underlies
这件事为什么一直挥之不去。嗯，因为在后来的岁月里，尽管他配合完成了这篇人物特写并且接受了多次采访，但他依然像是一个在某种程度上与现代文化对立的人。我是说，他并不参与其中。
Original English why it has stuck to him. Um because he is also someone who in the years since regardless of the fact that he participated in this profile and has done many interviews, he still seems like someone who's like against modern culture in some way. I mean, he doesn't participate.
那次采访留给我、让我一直思考的事情，是他跟我谈起社交媒体，而我向他兜售这样一种理论：他太脆弱了，以至于无法与受众互动。
Original English The thing that I'm left with from that interview, which I think about all the time, is him talking to me about social media, and me pedalling to him the theory that he is too fragile to interact with the audience.
>> 就像一只娇弱的小鸟。
Original English >> It's like a delicate little bird.
>> 但事实上，让他懊恼的是，我们在这次谈话期间正在观鸟。他说：“大家跟我在一起都这样。”我说：“是的，但我也一样。”他有点失望我没有更好的主意。嗯，“加入我们吧。”我说，我说：“加入我们吧，约翰。”嗯，我终于从他对我说的话中理解了，你无法直接引用原话，因为他是用极其宏大的蓝图方式在表达。就像为了引用他的一句话，我得为你铺开图纸，展示他身处的那座城市。就像你不能——单摘出一句话几乎是不道德的，因为它与这些其他事情紧密相连。
Original English >> But, and in fact, we were to his chagrin, we were birding during this conversation. And he's like, "Everyone does that with me." And I said, "Yes, but me, too." He was a little disappointed that I didn't have a better idea. Um, join the club. I say I say, "Join the club, John." Um, I finally understood from what he told me, and you can't quote it because he speaks in enormous blueprints. Like, in order to quote him, I would have to roll out blueprints for you and show you the city he was in. like you couldn't it's almost immoral to take one sentence because it was so linked to these other things
他说服了我，每当我在社交媒体上，以及自那时起——大概是2017年吧，是吗？我不知道
Original English convinced me and it's something I think about whenever I'm on social media and have since since that time which was like 2017 was it I don't know
>> 18年，17年，是的。
Original English >> 18 17 yeah
他说：不，不，不，互动本身才是脆弱，比如无法耐受独处，按照文化的规则去迎合它，并同意在那个论坛中参与他们所要求的对话。我的理解是他在说那就是脆弱，
Original English he said no no no the interaction is the fragility like not being able to be alone meeting the culture on its terms and agreeing to the conversation that they demanded in the forum that what I took away was him saying that is the fragility
而我认为他在表达的、并且我努力去铭记的是：你必须建立属于自己的微小牢笼，在那里远离这一切并获得自由；当你担忧别人的看法时，你不可能总是成就伟大的事业。
Original English and what he I think was saying and the thing I try to remember is that you have to build your own little tiny prison where you are free away from all of this that you cannot always do great things when you're worried about what people think of them.
>> 所以，我们在交谈，我是在以记者的身份跟你聊，以《纠正》热心读者的身份跟你聊，但你同时也是……
Original English >> So, we're talking and I'm talking to you in your role as a journalist, in your role as a passionate reader of the corrections, but you're also
>> 作为一个受害者，一个患上《纠正》这种病的受害者。
Original English >> as a a victim, a disease victim of the corrections.
>> 你是一个受害者，但你也是从事同一种手艺的同行。你写过两部小说。
Original English >> You're a victim, but you're also a practitioner of the same craft that does. You've written two novels.
>> 这话很客气，谢谢。
Original English >> That is polite. Thank you.
>> 呃，你说过
Original English >> Uh you said that
### 《长岛妥协》与《纠正》的影响 你的最新小说《长岛妥协》（Long Island Compromise）深受《纠正》（The Corrections）的影响。具体是怎样的呢？
Original English your most recent novel, Long Island Compromise, was very influenced by the corrections. How so?
所以我总是一直说，我想写一个家庭。我想写某种犹太版的《纠正》。我想写这个特定时期的美国犹太家庭。嗯，还有不同世代处理创伤的方式这种想法。我想写童年创伤。嗯，结果写出来的东西总像个廉价版的《纠正》。就像是，我抗拒了很久。我抗拒这种感觉，还试图把写兄弟姐妹的章节缩短，然后我才意识到，我这么做仅仅是为了不让人觉得我是在抄袭《纠正》。
Original English So I kept saying I want to write about a family. I wanted to write a sort of Jewish version of the corrections. I wanted to write about a Jewish American family at this particular moment. Um and the idea of the way different generations handle trauma. I wanted to write about childhood trauma. Um, and it kept coming out as a dime store corrections. Like it it it I fought it for so long. I fought it and I tried to make the sections with the siblings shorter and then I realized I'm only doing that so that it wouldn't seem like I was copying the corrections.
然后我意识到，根本不存在能抄袭得了《纠正》这回事。接着一位朋友对我说了一句帮我挺过来的话，那就是：你难道不觉得文学本就是这样发展的吗？它就是一层又一层的模仿，而你已经在尽最大努力了。我经常想起我们的朋友兼同事 A. O. 斯科特（A. O. Scott），嗯，如果你没读过他的书《批评让生活更美好》（Better Living Through Criticism）的话——嗯，我手头总放着大约二十本，四处送人。嗯，书的开篇提到，所有的艺术都在试图影印和重现伊甸园。而我们大多接受了自己做不到这一点。但这种努力本身蕴含着巨大的价值。我每次交稿时都会读读那一节，因为我觉得自己搞砸了。但我记着，努力本身是有价值的。对于这本书，我很不好意思。我从未主动联系他看他是否读过。这些年我和他一直有联络。他读过我的第一部小说，而我当时情不自禁。也许我喜爱这部作品的地方就在于，它对我来说是完美的。它就是我的伊甸园。
Original English And then I realized there is no copying the corrections. And then a friend said to me something that got me through which is don't you think this is how literature goes? It is imitation upon imitation and you are doing your best. And I think very often of our friend and colleague Ao Scott um if you've never read his book better living through criticism um I keep like 20 of them around and I give them to people. Um, and the way it starts is saying that all art is trying to photocopy and recreate the Garden of Eden. And we mostly accept that we can't do that. But there is so much value in the effort. And I read that section every time I hand something in because I feel like I failed. But I remember there is value in the effort. And with this book, I was embarrassed. I never reached out to him to see if he read it. He and I have been in touch over the years. He read my first novel and I couldn't help. Maybe the thing I loved about it was that it was perfect to me. It was my Garden of Eden.
### 流产的影视改编试播集 >> 我很想简短地聊聊那部从未真正问世的改编作品。呃，因为——
Original English >> I'd love to touch briefly on the adaptation that never was. Uh because
>> 吉尔伯特（Gilbert），你知道我是仅有的几个看过那部片子的人之一吗？
Original English >> Gilbert, do you know that I am one of the only people who has seen that?
>> 这正是我打算问的问题。
Original English >> This was going to be my question.
>> 我真看过。天哪。事情是这样的，2010 年代初诺亚·鲍姆巴赫（Noah Baumbach）拍了一部试播集。当时原本打算卖给 HBO。那时的 HBO 正处于《权力的游戏》早期年份。他们看了看这片子，说：“呃，算了吧。”我一直很好奇，这东西是存在 VHS 录像带上？是在激光影碟（laser disc）上？还是在硬盘上？
Original English >> I am. Oh my god. So, so there was a pilot filmed by Noah Bombach in the early 2010s. It was supposed to go to HBO. HBO was then in its early Game of Thrones years. Took a look at this and said, "Uh, no thank you." And I've always wondered, is this on a VHS? Is it on a laser disc? Is it is that drive?
>> 如果我没记错的话，我觉得是在光盘上，是在 CD 上。嗯哼。
Original English >> I think it's on a C, if I recall, it's on a CD. Uh-huh.
>> 然后到了第二天的中途，他说：“想看吗？”
Original English >> And midway into day two, he said, "Want to see it?"
>> 然后——
Original English >> And
>> 等等，等等。哦，乔纳森·弗兰岑（Jonathan Franzen）。
Original English >> wait, wait. Oh, Jonathan Fran.
>> 乔纳森·弗兰岑发给我的，因为谁也没看过。
Original English >> Jonathan Franen sent it to me because no one has seen it.
>> 我们坐在一起看了，他还随口吐槽调侃了一番。
Original English >> And we sat together and watched it and he sort of heckled it.
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> 那部电视剧单集并不出彩。选角在很多方面都不太合适。嗯。
Original English >> It wasn't a good episode of television. It was miscast in a lot of different ways. Mhm.
>> 我想说的是——我是怀着谦逊的心态这么说的，而且我认为这是，你知道的，我自己也给自己的第一部小说写过改编剧本，你可以批评它，说它太贴合原著了。但我认为改编的问题，由别人来操刀改编的问题在于，其他人并不真正理解这本书为什么好。比如诺亚·鲍姆巴赫很喜欢《纠正》，想把它拍出来，可是当我看了之后，我觉得他并没有理解我为什么喜欢《纠正》。
Original English >> I will say and I say this with humility and I think this is one of the you know I I wrote my own adapt adaptation of my first novel and you could criticize it and say it's too close to the book. But I think that the problem with adaptation and someone else doing the adaptation is that other people don't really understand why the book is good. like he Noah Bombach loved the corrections and wanted to make it and and I don't think when I watched it, it didn't seem to me that he understood why I loved the corrections.
>> 在我看来，似乎只有乔纳森·弗兰岑才会懂我为什么喜欢《纠正》。
Original English >> It seemed to me that only Jonathan Franen would understand why I loved the corrections.
>> 每一部改编作品不都是这样吗？是的，我想很多作品之所以如此，也就是为什么总会有那个老生常谈的问题：“它比原著好吗？我更喜欢原著吗？”这就是人们为什么会那么说。
Original English >> Isn't that just true of every adaptation? Yeah, I guess that's why a lot of them that's why the cliche question is is it better than the book? Is it I like the book better? That's like why people say that.
>> 我是说，在某个节点，我采访他之前做功课时在他某处看到过一句话，他那天也对我说过：我其实总是期盼着这些改编事情搞砸，因为我是小说的坚定支持者。他非常清楚现在的受众是电视受众了。图书在各个层面的数据都与他出版《纠正》时截然不同了。但他也明白，我不知道该怎么说，就像一部小说之所以立得住，正是因为它是一个你无法去改编的东西。
Original English >> I mean there was a point where he has a quote somewhere I found in my research before I interviewed him which is and he said to me that day I am sort of always rooting for these things to not work out because I am a partisan of the novel. He very much understands that the audience is a TV audience now. The numbers on books all around are different than they were when he published the corrections. But he also understands that I don't know that like a that a novel makes its case for itself by being a thing you can't adapt.
### 新版改编与角色诠释 所以弗兰岑写了那个试播集，但没能推进下去，而现在他正在写另一部改编作品，这项目可能真的会实现。奈飞（Netflix）——
Original English So Franen wrote that pilot which didn't go and now he's writing another adaptation which is going to happen possibly. Netflix
>> 梅丽尔·斯特里普（Meryl Streep）加盟——
Original English >> Mel Street attached
>> 奈飞已经宣布了一部改编作品，由科德·杰斐逊（Cord Jefferson）执导，他执导过《美国小说》（American Fiction）——那是改编自珀西瓦尔·埃弗雷特（Percival Everett）的书《抹去》（Erasure）——并且由梅丽尔·斯特里普主演。
Original English >> Netflix has announced an adaptation directed by Cord Jefferson who directed American fiction which was the adaptation of Pful Everett's book eraser and Meryill Street.
>> 她是完美的伊妮德（Enid）人选吗？
Original English >> Is she the perfect Enid?
>> 她演什么都完美。戴安·韦斯特（Dianne Wiest）曾是当年的伊妮德——
Original English >> She's the perfect anything. Diane Wuest was the Enid of your
>> 嗯哼。嗯，你知道，伊妮德是一个很难表达的人物，因为这本书的精髓就在于，在她孩子眼里她是这样一个人，而在她自己眼里她是另一个人，究竟她是怎样的一个人，完全取决于你。
Original English >> Mhm. Um, you know, Enid is a hard character to convey because she's the real thing about the book is that she is seen by her children as one thing. She sees herself as this other thing and it is up to you to know what she is.
>> 一旦把她搬上银幕，你就必须做出抉择。如果你是个演员，你就得做出决定，认定她究竟是哪一种人。我对此很抱有好奇。但我相信这部改编作品。我等不及了。我迫不及待想看到它。
Original English >> And once you render her on screen, you make decisions. If you're an actor, you're making decisions about which you which person you believe she is. And I wonder I wonder about that. But I believe in this adaptation. I cannot wait. I cannot wait to see it.
>> 作为一个读过这本书 20 遍的人，你一定会去看的。
Original English >> As someone who's read the book 20 times, you're going to watch this.
>> 是的。因为这又会引发我重读一遍。就像——你知道吗？当你写信问我“你想和我一起录这期播客吗？”的时候，我内心深处常年紧绷的某个地方一下子放松了，因为这意味着我可以再去读一遍《纠正》了。而且这一次在读的时候，我不需要自问“你在干什么呢？”。我是在为工作做准备，我这是在展现专业素养呢。我是在忙正事。
Original English >> Yeah. Because it'll trigger another read. Like like you know what? When you wrote to me and said, "Do you want to do this podcast with me?" Something inside me that is always clenched loosened because it meant I could read the corrections again. And this time I wouldn't have to ask myself while I was reading it, what are you doing? I'm preparing for I'm being a professional here. That's what I'm doing.
### 结语 >> 塔菲（Taffy），你我心里都清楚，关于《纠正》我们还能再聊上一个小时，甚至两个小时。我非常高兴你能来。我非常高兴你第 20 次重读了这本书，我也非常高兴我们一起纪念了这本书出版 25 周年。
Original English >> Taffy, you and I both know we could have talked about the corrections for another hour, another two hours. I'm so happy you came on. I'm so happy you reread this book for the 20th time, and I'm so happy we're marking this book's 25th uh anniversary.
>> 非常感谢。聊这个话题非常开心，我很喜欢这本书，也很喜欢这个播客。
Original English >> Thank you so much. This was a pleasure to talk about and I love this book and I love this podcast.
>> 本期书评节目由萨拉·戴蒙德（Sarah Diamond）、埃米·珀尔（Amy Pearl）和帕特里夏·苏尔巴兰（Patricia Sulbarán）制作。由佩德罗·罗萨多（Pedro Rosado）混音。原创音乐来自丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）和阿莉西亚·巴（Alicia Ba）。特别感谢达莉亚·哈达德（Dalia Hadad）。我们很想知道大家对节目的看法，请发送电子邮件至 bookreview@nytimes.com。我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹（Gilbert Cruz）。感谢收听。
Original English >> The book review is produced by Sarah Diamond, Amy Pearl, and Patricia Sulbar. It's mixed by Pedro Rosado. Original music by Dan Powell and Alicia Ba. Special thanks to Dalia Hadad. We want to hear what you think about the show, so send us an email at the bookreview@ny times.com. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thanks for listening.