--- author: All-In Podcast date: '2026-03-17' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y7TTU1jIvk speaker: All-In Podcast tags: - physical-automation - ai-infrastructure - economic-growth - social-capital - technological-disruption title: Travis Kalanick与Michael Dell论物理AI、德州发展及社会资本 summary: 本访谈深度探讨了由Travis Kalanick创办的物理自动化公司Atoms如何将物理世界数字化，以及Michael Dell对AI基础设施、德州经济增长和“投资美国法案”的见解。嘉宾们分享了AI对产业重塑、企业创新速度的提升，以及慈善事业对社会资本积累的重要性。内容涵盖自动驾驶、AI数据中心建设、企业变革以及科技对社会文化和经济的影响。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: ai-ml area: tech-engineering project: [] people: - Travis Kalanick - Michael Dell - Brad Gersonner companies_orgs: - Uber - OpenAI - Tesla - Waymo - Dell - Amazon - Stripe - Boring Company products_models: - ChatGPT - Gemini - Opus - Nvidia Neotron media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### Travis Kalanick揭秘Stealth模式公司Atoms **Host 1**: 我不知道你们中是否有人知道，我曾是几家公司的天使投资人。数到三，我最喜欢的天使投资是什么？一，二，三。 **Host 1**: 谢谢。掌声欢迎——**Travis Kalanick**。 **Travis Kalanick**: 谢谢各位。好的。哇。在一个大新闻日，**Travis** 在一个非常重要的新闻日来到了这里。你花了，呃，哇，我想大概七年的时间在实验室里打造产品。去年，每年我都问你：“嘿，你想来参加峰会吗？”你说不，就像我只想休息，我在建设。明年，嘿，你知道，这总是可行的。
Original English **Host 1**: I don't know if some of you knew I was an angel investor in some companies. On the count of three, what's my favorite angel investment of all time? One, two, three. **Host 1**: Thank you. Give it up. **Travis Kalanick**. **Travis Kalanick**: Appreciate you. All right. Wow. Um, on a big news day, **Travis** is here on a very big news day. you spent uh wow I guess like seven years just in the lab building last year every year I ask you hey you want to come to the summit you want to say no it's like I'm going to just chill I'm building next year hey you know just it's always available
**Travis Kalanick**: 你明白我正在**隐身模式**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: you understand I'm stealth
**Host 2**: 是啊，**隐身模式**。我处于**隐身模式**，没人知道我在哪，没人知道我在做什么。员工甚至不被允许把公司的名字放在他们的 **LinkedIn** 上。
Original English **Host 2**: yeah stealth I'm stealth nobody knows where I am nobody knows what I'm doing the employees are not allowed to put the name of the company on their **LinkedIn**
**Host 1**: 几千名员工都不被允许把公司名字放在 **LinkedIn** 上，我的意思是，这太不可思议了。我当时想，“好吧。”
Original English **Host 1**: thousands of employees that weren't allowed to put the company name on **LinkedIn** I mean, incredible. And I'm like, "Okay." And
**Travis Kalanick**: 他们的父母以为他们在为 **CIA** 工作。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: their parents thought they worked for the **CIA**.
**Host 1**: 是的。然后他会说，“顺便说一句，**Jake Al**，你可以投资。你不能宣布，你必须签一份协议，你不能提及你是一位投资者。”我当时想，“好吧，没问题。我很高兴能出现在股东名单上。”
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. And then he's like, "And by the way, **Jake Al**, you can invest. You can't announce it and you have to sign an you can't mention you're an investor." It's like, "Okay, no problem. I'm just happy to be on the cap table."
**Host 2**: 他是不是有点像在秘密地说他不该说的话？
Original English **Host 2**: Is he like kind of like secret saying what he wasn't supposed to say,
**Travis Kalanick**: 对吧？现在他正在做这件事，刚刚发生。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: right? Now he's doing that just happened.
**Host 2**: 嗯，你知道，你现在公开了。让我们开始吧。
Original English **Host 2**: Well, you know, you're out now. It Let's go.
**Host 1**: 你公开了。它被揭露了。你，你今天脱离了**隐身模式**。
Original English **Host 1**: You're out. It's out. You're You came out of stealth today.
**Host 2**: 嗯。
Original English **Host 2**: Um,
**Host 1**: 太有趣了。好吧。
Original English **Host 1**: it's so funny. Okay.
**Host 2**: 太棒了。你脱离了**隐身模式**。嗯，你谈了一点。去年你来过 **All-In** 峰会。这公平吗？你说你今天脱离**隐身模式**。是这样吗？
Original English **Host 2**: It's so great. You came out of stealth. Well, you you talked a little bit. You came to **All-In** last year. Is that fair? You say you're coming out of stealth today. Is that right?
**Travis Kalanick**: 嗯，看，让我们从这对我们的员工意味着什么开始说起。因为再次想象一下，如果你在一个拥有几千人的公司工作，每个员工的 **LinkedIn** 上都写着“**隐身模式**”，包括销售人员，好的？包括招聘人员。他们当时过着“困难模式”的生活。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Well, look, let let's just start with what that meant for our employees because again, imagine if you're at a multi,000 person company and every single employee has stealth on their **LinkedIn**, including salespeople, okay? Including recruiters. Like it was they they were they were living life on hard mode. It
**Host 1**: 这也挺有趣的，对吧？我的意思是。
Original English **Host 1**: was kind of fun too, right? I mean
**Travis Kalanick**: 我的意思是，是的，这有点酷，这是什么？为什么在洛杉矶有如此密集的**隐身模式**初创公司人群？那里发生了什么？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: I mean yeah it was like kind of cool what the what's what is this? Why are there why is this massive density of stealth
**Host 2**: 对。
Original English **Host 2**: right
**Travis Kalanick**: 初创公司的人在洛杉矶？发生了什么？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: startup people in Los Angeles? What is happening over there?
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Host 2**: 是的。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah.
**Travis Kalanick**: 还有，从技术上讲，公司在不同国家的名字是非常通用的公司名称。我的意思是，一切都是为了**隐身**而设计的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Also technically the name of the company in different countries was very generic names of companies. I mean everything was designed to be stealth,
**Host 1**: 对。
Original English **Host 1**: right?
**Travis Kalanick**: 所以我们在 **30** 个国家运营。在美国，厨房产品被称为 **CloudKitchens**。在韩国，它是 **Kitchen Valley**。在中东，它是 **Nama**。在拉丁美洲的部分地区，它是 **Cinaas**。我的意思是，你明白我的意思了。你甚至记不住所有的名字和所有的代号。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: So we operate in **30** countries. In the US the kitchens product is known as **CloudKitchens**. In Korea it's **Kitchen Valley**. In the Middle East it's **Nama**. In Latin America, parts of Latin America it's **Cinaas**. I mean you get the idea. You can't even remember all the names and all the code words.
**Host 1**: 想想看。
Original English **Host 1**: Think about it.
**Travis Kalanick**: 仔细想想。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: To think it through. But
**Host 2**: 我们在中国有四个，你知道，到处都是。是的。
Original English **Host 2**: we have four in China, you know, it's like all over the place. Yeah.
### Atoms公司的物理AI愿景及应用 **Host 1**: 但是事情进展得很顺利，你一直有点好奇。所以告诉我们你今天宣布的品牌，然后可能是公司的一些收购和演变。你不仅仅是租用厨房空间。
Original English **Host 1**: But things have gone really well and you've been a little inquisitive. So tell us about the branding today that you're announcing and then maybe some of the acquisitions and evolution of the company. You're not just renting kitchen space.
**Travis Kalanick**: 那些了解我在 **Uber** 时代如何思考事物的人，很多事情都不会感到惊讶。我经常谈论将**物理世界数字化**。我想我甚至在峰会上也提到过。这个的简要版本，我会尽量快速地说，但它就像，呃，我们知道**比特世界**，**计算机世界**，那是 **Michael Dell** 基本上为我们发明的。**CPU**、**存储**、**网络**。这是三个核心计算资源。当你第一天去上计算机科学课时，你会学到三个核心计算机资源。**CPU** 操纵比特。**存储** 存储比特。**网络** 将比特从 A 点移动到 B 点。但是如果你正在**将物理世界数字化**，你就是在将**原子**视为**比特**。你正在构建一台**基于原子的计算机**。我将解释我的意思。我知道这有点，有点超前。**CPU** 操纵比特。什么操纵原子？**制造**。**存储** 存储比特。什么存储原子？**房地产**。**网络** 将比特从 A 点移动到 B 点。什么移动原子？那是**运输**或**物流**。所以你在一个**基于原子的计算机**中有这三个核心计算资源。我的公司名字非常晦涩，并且故意设计得非常无聊，叫做 **City Storage Systems**。所以那是**基于原子的计算机**中的**数字化房地产**。我们的第一台**计算机**是一台**食品计算机**。那是什么意思？针对食品的**制造**、**房地产**和**物流**。所以你开始理解了，这个想法，这个使命是**为更好的食物提供基础设施**。这个想法是，你能否以如此高效的方式获得一份准备好并送达的餐点，以至于它的成本开始接近去杂货店的成本？如果你能做到这一点，你就能像 **Uber** 对汽车所做的那样，对厨房做同样的事情。但是在 **Uber** 时代，道路就在那里，汽车未被使用。你只需要在应用商店里放一个应用。那并不容易，但也有点那么容易。在这个世界上，你不能在一家餐厅里做这件事。餐厅没有。当我离开 **Uber** 时，旧金山所有里程的 **13%** 是 **Uber** 里程。你不能做到这一点，那是在十、九年前。你不能在食品和餐厅上做到这一点。它们只有大约 **20%** 的容量。**Uber Eats** 和 **DoorDash** 填补了它，但是进行高容量、大规模工业生产的基础设施根本不存在。物流也根本不存在。它就是行不通。这就是为什么在电子商务中，你通过亚马逊的大型仓库进行，拥有出色的物流。当食品进入电子商务时，你也必须做同样的事情。说了很多。好的。所以底线是，它很棒。我们做这种**食品计算**的东西。我们现在正在做更多的**计算机**。所以公司的名字叫做 **Atoms**，它的使命是，呃，物理自动化以改变行业并推动世界。所以我们有我谈到的**食品计算机**。然后我们做**采矿**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Those who I mean know how I thought about things in the **Uber** day, a lot of this stuff's not surprising. I I would often talk about **digitizing the physical world**. I think I even did it all at summit. The quick version of this, I'll try to do it quickly, but it's like uh we know the **bits world**, the **computer world**, the one that **Michael Dell** essentially invented for us. **CPU**, **storage**, **network**. These are three core computing resources. When you go to computer science class your first day, three core computer resources. **CPU** manipulates the bits. **Storage** stores the bits. **Network** moves bits from point A to point B. But if you're **digitizing the physical world**, you're treating **atoms** like **bits**. You're building an **atoms-based computer**. And I'll explain what I mean to say. I know this is a little little out there. **CPU** manipulates bits. What manipulates atoms? **Manufacturing**. **Storage** stores bits. What stores atoms? **Real estate**. **Network** moves bits from point A to point B. What moves atoms? That's **transportation** or **logistics**. So you have these three core computing resources in an **atoms-based computer**. The name of my company was very obtuse and purposely designed to be as boring as hell was called **City Storage Systems**. So that's **digitized real estate** in an **atoms-based computer**. Our first computer being a **food computer**. What does that mean? **Manufacturing real estate** and **logistics** for food. And so you start to get there and the idea the the mission was **infrastructure for better food**. The idea was, can you get a meal that's prepared and delivered to you so efficient that it starts to approach the the the cost of going to the grocery store? If you can do that, you do to the kitchen what **Uber** did to the car. But in the **Uber** day, the roads were there, the cars are unused. You just had to put an app in the app store. Wasn't that easy, but kind of that easy. In this world, you can't do this on a restaurant. restaurant doesn't have. When I left **Uber**, **13%** of all San Francisco miles were **Uber** miles. You can't get and that was **10** nine years ago. You can't get there on food on restaurants. They they have like **20%** capacity. **Uber Eats** and **DoorDash** fill it, but the infrastructure to do high capacity, high scale sort of industrial production is just not there. And the logistics just not there. It just doesn't work. That's why on e-commerce you go through **Amazon** big ass warehouses with awesome logistics. You've got to do the same thing when food when food goes to e-commerce. That was a lot. Okay. So bottom line is it's awesome. We do this **food computation** stuff. We're doing more computers now. And so the name of the company is called **Atoms** and it's let's say the mission uh is um is uh **physical automation** to transform industries and move the world. And so we have our **food computer** I talked about. Then we do we're doing mining.
**Host 1**: 采矿，就像。
Original English **Host 1**: Mining as in
**Travis Kalanick**: 采矿，数据采矿。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: mining data mining.
**Host 2**: 我们说的是**原子**，伙计们。
Original English **Host 2**: We're talking about atoms guys.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah.
**Host 1**: 嗯，当然你也会做一些**数据采矿**，但重点是**实体采矿**。所以是**矿山自动化**，呃，那里的使命是，呃，**更高效的矿山**来为地球工业提供动力。对吧？所以它有这种**工业原子**的氛围。然后在运输方面，它是，呃，**机器人的轮距**，因为如果你正在做**专用机器人**，而不是**人形机器人**，**专用机器人**，你需要能够在**物理世界**中移动和行动。但你一旦移动，你就必须有轮距。所以，这只是等式的一部分。很多人会说，看看 **Tesla**，很棒。看看，呃，看看 **Waymo**。太棒了。他们当然在奥斯汀巡航。但有很多东西在移动。这不仅仅是共享出行。嗯，所以，嗯，显然包括**采矿设备**也在做自己的事情。所以伙计们，这就是大概的想法。我们收购了一家在采矿方面的公司，一家叫做 **Pronto** 的公司，或者说即将完成。我们，我们离完成只差几英寸，就是这样说。
Original English **Host 1**: So well of course you do some mining data mine too but the point is is **physical mining**. So **automation of mines** and uh the mission there is uh **more productive mines** to power earth's industries. Right? So it's got this **industrial atoms** vibe to it. And then on the transport side, it's uh **wheelbase for robots** because if you're doing **specialized robots**, not humanoids, **specialized robots**, you need to be able to move and act in the **physical world**. But the minute you're moving, you got to have a wheelbase. So, it's just part of the equation. And a lot of people go, look at **Tesla**, it's great. Look at uh look at **Waymo**. Awesome. They're cruising around Austin, of course. But there's so many things that move. It's not just a ride sharing thing. Um, and so, um, obviously including **mining equipment** that's doing its thing. So you guys, that's the general sort of idea. And we acquired a company on the mining stuff, a company called **Pronto** or it's about to close. It's we're we're inches from closing is the way to put it.
**Host 2**: 他们在做什么？他们的业务是什么？**Pronto**？
Original English **Host 2**: What were they doing? What was their business? **Pronto**
**Travis Kalanick**: 自动化**采矿设备**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: automating mining equipment.
**Host 1**: 他们基地在哪里？
Original English **Host 1**: Were they based?
**Travis Kalanick**: 呃，他们总部设在**旧金山**。所以，你和我在后台开始谈论这个，但是我在采矿行业遇到了一些人，他们提到，你知道，采矿的头号大问题就是勘测，就像找到地点，对吧？那里有优势可以创造吗？因为我知道有几家初创公司正在尝试非常聪明地选择地点，以便从地下获取目标。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Uh, they're based in **San Francisco**. So, you and I were starting to talk about this backstage, but there's some folks I talked to in the mining industry who mentioned, you know, like the the big issue with mining number one is just surveying, like finding the the locations, right? Is there an advantage to be created there? Cuz I know there's a couple startups that are trying to be really smart about selecting locations to get the targets out of the ground.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Travis Kalanick**: 然后另一个问题是，嗯，你能挖多深？因为地球上几乎任何地方，只要你愿意挖得足够深，你就能得到你想要的任何东西，但成本是距离的平方，对吧？所以能源成本就像你要挖多深，到二次方。所以它变得，你知道，几何级数地更昂贵才能挖得更深，但你挖得越深，你就越不用担心找到正确的位置。所以**自动化**能释放这种能力吗？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: And then the other one is like, well, can you go deep? Because pretty much anywhere on Earth, you can get whatever you want if you're willing to go deep enough, but the cost is is distance squared, right? So the energy cost is like how deep are you going to the to to the second power. So it becomes you know geometrically more expensive to go deeper but the deeper you go you're the more you're able to kind of not worry about getting the right location. So does **automation** unlock that capacity?
**Host 1**: **自动化**肯定能做到。我的意思是，但是你必须，我的意思是，**Boring Company** 也有一些好东西在进行吗？
Original English **Host 1**: Automation definitely does. I mean, but you have I mean, also it's like, man, does **Boring Company** have some good stuff going?
**Travis Kalanick**: 就像我希望我们，我们，我们正在做**采矿**的事情，就像**Boring Company** 制造，你知道，一些好的隧道供汽车行驶。但是就像有一些**无聊的机制**，**自动化隧道**来做这些事情。但老实说，有，你知道，他们有这个东西，就像**稀土**。我不知道他们为什么用复数**稀土**，不是**稀土**吗？我不知道。但是。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Like I hope we we're like we're doing the mining thing like and **Boring Company** goes makes, you know, some good tunnels for for cars to do the thing. But like there's some kind of boring mechanism, **automated tunneling** to do some of this. But to be honest, there's there's, you know, they have this this thing is like **rare earths**. I don't know why they put plural **rare earths**, isn't it? **Rare earth**. I don't know. But the
**Host 1**: 但是**稀土**，**稀土**。
Original English **Host 1**: but rare rare
**Travis Kalanick**: **稀土**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: rare earth.
**Host 1**: 是的。但它不**稀有**。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. But it's not rare.
**Travis Kalanick**: 它是**不常见的矿物**，伙计们。它不**稀有**。你必须对土地做的事情是侵略性的。而**稀有**的是那些地方，他们会让你做这件事，你也可以让人们去那里。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: It's uncommon mineral guys. It's not rare. It's what you have to do to the land is aggressive. And what's rare is the is is where the where are the places they'll let you do it that you can also sort of get people to.
**Host 1**: 当你**自动化**时，你可以去很多地方。呃，首先是所有现有的矿山都更具生产力。嗯，其次是你就可以证明去你以前无法去的地方是合理的，因为嗯，你没有那么多的劳动力足迹或安全问题或一大堆其他事情。
Original English **Host 1**: When you automate, you can go to a lot of places. Uh well, first is all the mines that exist are way more productive. Um and the second is you can then sort of justify going to places you wouldn't have been able to go before because um you don't have as much of a labor footprint or a safety issue or a whole bunch of other things that then
**Host 2**: 所以如果它不适合居住，如果它受到监管，如果它像我不想住在那里，那是世界的尽头。
Original English **Host 2**: So if it's inhospitable, if it's regulated, if it's like I don't want to live there, it's the end of the earth.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Host 2**: 你可以派**机器人**去，让人远程监控它们。是的。
Original English **Host 2**: You can send robots and have people monitoring them remotely. Yeah.
**Host 1**: 这就像一个有点像**科幻小说**的未来。
Original English **Host 1**: And this is like a a future that feels like a little bit like **science fiction**.
**Travis Kalanick**: 看，我们在奥斯汀。你必须向 **Tesla** 和所有事情致敬，因为我喜欢分解**物理AI堆栈**。它不仅仅包括，哦，是的，计算，我必须拥有**物理AI模型**，以及所有你认为的东西。**土地开发**怎么样？那应该在那个堆栈中。**化学**怎么样？那也需要在这个堆栈中。**制造业**需要在这个堆栈中。当你看着这个堆栈时，你会想，该死，**Tesla** 拥有这个。他们是这个时代的**谷歌**。我的意思是在 **2000** 年代，如果你在 **2000** 年代创办一家初创公司，你会遇到的第一个问题是，呃，为什么 **谷歌** 不会杀死你，或者为什么 **谷歌** 不会自己去做？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Look, we're here in Austin. You got to do the shout out to **Tesla** and all the things cuz I like to sort of break down the **physical AI stack** includes not just like, oh yeah, computation and I've got to have **physical AI models** and I got to all the things you sort of think of. What about **land development**? That should be in that stack. What about **chemistry**? that needs to be in the stack. **Manufacturing** needs to be in the stack. When you look at the stack, you're like, damn, **Tesla's** got this. They are they are the **Google** of this era. Which is what I mean by that is in the **2000s**, if you were doing a startup in the **2000s**, the first question you would get is uh why isn't why isn't **Google** going to kill you or why isn't **Google** just going to do it?
**Host 1**: 为什么是**谷歌**？
Original English **Host 1**: Why **Google**?
**Travis Kalanick**: 他们不会知道他们杀死了你。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: They're not going to know that they killed you.
**Host 2**: 在那之前是**微软**。
Original English **Host 2**: And before that, **Microsoft**.
**Travis Kalanick**: 在那之前是 **90** 年代末的**微软**。**Uber** 在 **2010** 年有一个时期。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: And before that was **Microsoft** late **90s**. **Uber** had a time **2010**.
**Host 1**: 如果 **Uber** 把那个放到应用里怎么办？
Original English **Host 1**: What if **Uber** puts that in the app?
**Travis Kalanick**: 拜托。就像，伙计，这是 **Uber**。我当时想，但是你知道，我认为在**物理AI**领域，那是**Tesla** 的东西。嗯，但是有很多事情要做。你必须抓住机会。你必须做一些事情。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Come on. It's like, dude, this is **Uber**. I'm like, but you know, I think in the **physical AI** space, that's a that's sort of a **Tesla** thing. Um, but there's so many things to do. You got to shoot your shot. You got to do some stuff.
### 自动驾驶领域的进展与挑战 **Host 2**: 而且有传言说，嗯，嘿，你可能还没有完成**自动驾驶**，这是你很早就涉足的领域。你如何看待**自动驾驶**领域的情况？因为我的天啊，你知道，**Waymo** 正在取得巨大进展。**Tesla** 也在取得巨大进展。
Original English **Host 2**: And rumors that um, hey, you might not be done with **self-driving**, something that you were very early on. How do you think about what you're seeing in the playing field of **self-driving**? Because my lord, you know, **Waymo's** making great progress. **Tesla's** making great progress.
**Host 1**: 选一个赢家。就像在 **Tesla**、**Waymo**、**Uber** 之间选一个赢家。
Original English **Host 1**: Pick a winner. Like pick a winner between **Tesla**, **Waymo**, **Uber**,
**Host 2**: 或者，或者像 **Uber**。**Uber** 似乎正在建立一个网络。
Original English **Host 2**: or or like **Uber**. **Uber** seems to be building a network of stuff.
**Host 1**: 是的。我的意思是，现在参与者数量太疯狂了，对吧？就像。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. I mean, the number of
**Host 2**: 选一个赢家。
Original English **Host 2**: pick a winner.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。看，我认为现在噪音更多，叫声比咬人更多。嗯，看，我认为 **Waymo** 显然是领先的。存在性证明就在那里。他们的问题是**制造**和**规模**，嗯，以及**紧迫感**和**凶猛度**。就像，我们。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. Look, there's I think there's more noise. There's more bark than there is bite right now. Um, look, I think **Waymo** obviously is ahead. the existence proof is there. Their issue is **manufacturing** and **scale** um and urgency and fierceness like let's
**Host 1**: 来吧。走吧。
Original English **Host 1**: come on. Let's go.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。你知道，**Uber** 以前也有一个**自动驾驶项目**。所以，他们现在有不同的策略。我有一段时间没去那里了。但是重点是，你有了 **Waymo**，然后你有了 **Tesla** 的**基础原理**、**科学**，以及难上 **100** 倍的模式。问题是，他们能在什么时间尺度上实现？如果他们，就像老实说，每个人都说，明天可能发生，五年内可能发生。我认为这就像**视觉**的 **ChatGPT** 时刻何时发生。这基本上就是问题。我们称之为**没有其他传感器的视觉**。所以它非常鼓舞人心，但是它的时间线是什么？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. You know, **Uber** had an **autonomy project** back in the day. So, and they have a different strategy these days. I haven't been there for a while. So, but the but the point is is that you so you got **Waymo**, then you've got **Tesla** fundamentals, science, hard mode times **100**. And the question is, do they get there in what time scale? If if they and like honestly everybody's like, could happen tomorrow, could happen in **5** years. And I think that it's like when does the **ChatGPT** moment happen for vision is basically the thing. Let's call it **vision without other sensors**. So super inspiring, but like what's the timeline on it?
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Travis Kalanick**: 嗯，这些基本上是，然后还有很多其他的小公司，我认为他们还没有真正的能力。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Um those are the bas this is basically the and then there's a lot of other little guys that don't really have the stuff I believe yet.
**Host 2**: 其他公司中还没有谁脱颖而出。你认为我们现在是否到了一个点，就像显然你现在正在进入更多这种**自主系统**，它们可以四处移动，我们是否有这些**视觉-语言-动作模型**经过调整并准备好投入黄金时间？一直以来都有一个讨论，谁将拥有**视觉-语言-动作**的 **Android** 操作系统，我可以用我的声音告诉它做一些事情，它知道我在说什么，然后它识别物体并在**物理世界**中做这件事。这些模型今天存在吗？还是仍然需要工作？那会是像 **Google OS** 吗？或者那个 **OS** 会从哪里来？
Original English **Host 2**: There's nobody standing out just yet of of the others. Do you think we're at a point now like obviously now that you're getting into more of these kind of **autonomous systems** that move around like do we have these **vision-language-action models** tuned and ready for prime time? There's there's been a conversation like who's going to have the **Android** the **operating system** for **vision-language-action** where I can use my voice tell it to do something and it knows what I'm saying and then it identifies the objects and does the thing in the **physical world**. Do those models exist today or there still work? And is that like a **Google OS** or like where does that **OS** come from?
**Travis Kalanick**: 看，我认为这是一个充满活力的领域，是**研究**和**实施**的混合。我认为有很多希望和有趣的东西。我的意思是，从高层次上讲，我们都记得你使用 **ChatGPT 3.5** 时发生的事情，你当时会想，天哪。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Look, I think there's a there this is an area of a lot of energy, a mix of **research** and **implementation**. I think there's a lot of hope and interesting stuff. I mean the high level is we all remember what happened when you used **ChatGPT 3.5** and you're like holy.
**Host 2**: 是的，这很靠谱。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah, it's legit.
**Travis Kalanick**: 哇。然后它发展到 **4**，你就会觉得，好吧，有些东西就是改变了。世界就是改变了，我能把一些点连接起来，变得真实。它会发生吗？它会发生在**物理AI**领域吗？这就是它的意义。是的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Whoa. And then it went to **4** and you're like, okay, like some stuff just changed. The world just changed and I can sort of connect some dots and getting real. Is it about to happen? Is it about to happen for **physical AI**? And that's what this is about. Yeah.
**Host 1**: 而有趣的是，**机器学习**、**深度学习**这种东西多年来，几十年来，都是**难以捉摸**的。我不知道这东西在想什么。它只是吐出一个答案，我知道它是正确的。好吧，现在你可以和它对话了，对吧？就像想象一下，如果它正在驾驶你的汽车，有不同的代理，一个只是驾驶，另一个会说，“嘿，注意那边。”
Original English **Host 1**: And the fun part about it is **machine learning**, **deep learning**, this kind of thing for many years, decades was like inscrutable. I don't know what the thing is thinking. It just spits out an answer and I know it's correct. Well, now you can have a conversation with it, right? Like imagine if it's driving your car and there's different agents and one's just driving, the other's like, "Yo, look out over there."
**Host 2**: 是的。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah.
**Host 1**: 就像，“哦，就像我们平时那样。”就像有人那样做，你会说，“亲爱的，那离我们还有 **200** 米。我们会没事。”是的。
Original English **Host 1**: It's like, "Oh, just like how we roll." Like somebody does that, you're like, you're like, "Honey, that's like **200** meters away. We're going to be okay." Yeah.
**Host 2**: **Jason** 和我彼此不称呼“亲爱的”，但我懂你的意思。是的。
Original English **Host 2**: **Jason** and I don't call each other honey, but I got you. Yeah.
**Host 1**: 就像。
Original English **Host 1**: Like,
**Host 2**: 甜心。
Original English **Host 2**: sweetie,
**Host 1**: 你知道。是的。
Original English **Host 1**: you know. Yeah.
**Host 2**: 好的。所以无论如何，那很奇怪，不是吗？好的。好的。好的。我不是那个意思。我不是那个意思。
Original English **Host 2**: Okay. So anyways, so that was odd, wasn't it? Okay. Okay. Okay. I didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean it.
**Host 1**: 是的。你知道，我就是那个意思。好的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. You know, I meant it. Okay.
**Travis Kalanick**: **语言**是一种美丽的**压缩机制**，人类使用 **100** 瓦的能量，就像你把它放在 AI 训练、AI 能量的宏大背景下，那些为做这件事而建造的发电厂，甚至还没有达到人类的力量。好吧。**Waymo** 机器驾驶 **Waymo** 所需的能量是人类驾驶 **Waymo** 的**一百倍**。所以，所以**语言**，我们人类仍然擅长一些事情，而且是无可匹敌的。我们仍然在某些事情上是最好的。**语言**就是这种史诗般的**压缩**。嗯，我们需要找到**压缩**的方法，因为就像当你思考我们最初是如何看待**物理世界**的时候，我们看到了一切。你知道吗，伙计们，这有点显而易见，就像如果我在开车，云在做什么并不重要。但是就像汽车不知道这一点。它正在获取每一个该死的数据点并处理一切。而且它正在，你知道，看，他们一直在努力剔除那些无关紧要的东西等等。有非常棒的**超强版本**，你可以想象如何使用**语言**或类似**语言**的东西在**代理**之间进行交流，或者将**安全系统**与驾驶系统结合起来，从而获得非常高效的答案，并非常高效地识别**安全问题**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: **Language** is a beautiful **compression mechanism** that humans use **100** watts of energy like and you put that in the scheme of things of like **AI training**, **AI energy**, the power plants that are built to do the thing that isn't even at human strength yet. Okay. The **Waymo** machine takes a **hundred times** more energy to drive a **Waymo** than a human does to drive a **Waymo**. So, so **language** we there are still things that humans are great at and that unbeat like the goat. We're still the goat at certain things. **Language** is this epic **compression**. And um we need to find ways to compress cuz like when you think about how how we first started looking at the **physical world** is we saw everything. And you know what guys and this is sort of obvious like it doesn't matter what the cloud is doing if I'm driving. But like the car doesn't know that. It's pulling in every freaking data point and processing everything. And it's it's you know look they've been about sort of carving out the things that don't matter and things like this. There's **ultra awesome versions** of this and you can imagine how you can use **language** or things that look like **language** to communicate either amongst **agents** or sort of **safety systems** with a driving system to sort of get very efficient answers and to identify **safety issues** very efficiently.
### 加州人才流失与德州崛起 **Host 2**: 大多数人不知道你已经搬到**德州**了，但它已经公开了。
Original English **Host 2**: People don't know that you've moved to **Texas** as of most people don't know but it's it's out there.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。你是在十二月搬到这里的，所以你现在是**奥斯汀**的居民。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. You moved here in December, so now you're a resident of **Austin**.
**Host 1**: 是的，我当时，我谢谢你。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah, I was I Thank you.
**Host 2**: 这对我来说非常令人兴奋。我们一直在玩一些**双陆棋**。
Original English **Host 2**: It's very exciting for me. We've been getting to play some back gammon.
**Host 1**: 双陆棋，扑克牌。
Original English **Host 1**: Back gamon cards. It's
**Host 2**: 扑克牌。我们玩得很开心。
Original English **Host 2**: cards. We're having a good time.
**Travis Kalanick**: 所以，我从 **2021** 年起就在**奥斯汀湖**边有个地方。呃，我经常去那里。我是一个狂热的**滑水爱好者**。就像。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: So, I've had a place on **Lake Austin** since **2021**. And uh I go there. I'm an avid water skier. Like,
**Host 1**: 我不得不说，你的**滑水**很出色。就像。
Original English **Host 1**: you're impressive at water skiing, I have to say. Like,
**Travis Kalanick**: 所以我在奥斯汀已经住了 **5** 年了。我非常喜欢它。那是我的周末。我每年会去 **15** 个周末。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: so I've had a place in Austin for **5** years. freaking love it. It's my weekend. I would go **15** weekends a year.
**Host 2**: 你觉得**加州**会发生什么？
Original English **Host 2**: What do you think's going to happen in **California**?
**Travis Kalanick**: 那真是搞砸了。看，我是在**加州**长大的。呃，就像我在**洛杉矶**长大的。呃，我的父母在**洛杉矶**出生和长大，这基本上使他们成为 **LA** 的创始人。好吧。但是嗯，所以我有很多心血，我的整个家庭，一切，你知道吗？这很。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: It's pretty messed up. Look, I I grew up in **Cali**. Uh like I grew up in **Los Angeles**. Uh my parents were born and bred in **Los Angeles**, which basically makes them the founders of **LA**. Okay. But um so I have a lot of heart like my whole family, everything, you know? It's pretty
**Host 1**: 这很，这很，我不想。
Original English **Host 1**: it's pretty it's I don't want
**Travis Kalanick**: 我们很多人都有这种感觉。我不想把小提琴拿出来，但这只是，但这令人心碎。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: a lot of us feel that way. I don't want to get the violin out, but it just But it's heartbreaking.
**Host 2**: 情节完全。这只是你长大的地方。那是你的家，你知道。
Original English **Host 2**: The plot totally It's just a place you grew up. It's your home, you know,
**Travis Kalanick**: 当你必须离开的时候。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: when you have to leave.
**Host 1**: 呃，但是那里变得越来越奇怪，呃，感觉它变得越来越奇怪，在某些时候，那太奇怪了。
Original English **Host 1**: Uh but it's getting weird out there and uh it feels like it's getting weirder and at some point that's it's just too weird.
**Host 2**: 太奇怪了。你觉得每个人都会离开吗？
Original English **Host 2**: It's too weird. Do you think everyone's going to leave?
**Travis Kalanick**: 我的意思是，它从 **Elon** 开始，就像。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: I mean, it started with **Elon** and it was like
**Host 1**: 我们不希望 **Elon** 在这里，然后他就像收到了信息一样。
Original English **Host 1**: we don't want **Elon** here and then he's like message received,
**Travis Kalanick**: 对吧？然后它就以这种方式影响了**科技行业**，以及，你知道，那些正在建立企业等等的人们的世界。现在它已经变得如此广泛，就。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: right? And then it kind of worked its way down the **tech industry** and in the kind of it, you know, world of people building businesses and whatnot. And now it's kind of gotten so broad in terms of the
**Host 2**: **Joe Rogan** 喜剧，音乐，纽约客，餐厅之旅。我的意思是，这个地方。
Original English **Host 2**: **Joe Rogan** comedy, music, New Yorkers, restaurant tours. I mean, this place is
**Host 1**: 我甚至不是在谈论这个。我只是在谈论所有人离开 **LA**，或者抱歉，离开**加州**，这几乎就像沿着这条道路发展。
Original English **Host 1**: I'm not even talking about this. I'm just talking about everyone leaving **LA** or sorry leaving **California** is almost like working down this path of
**Travis Kalanick**: 看，我的团队其他成员都在说，我们什么时候搬家？你知道，他们就像。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: look my the rest of my team's like we're when are we moving you know they're like
**Host 2**: 你怎么处理的？所以问题是，就像。
Original English **Host 2**: and how are you dealing with that? So that was the question was like
**Travis Kalanick**: 必须在湖边买房子。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: got to buy homes on the lake.
**Host 1**: 有几十家初创公司的 **CEO**，无论是成功还是正在成长的公司，我跟他们聊过，他们都说：“伙计，我想离开，但我这里有员工。我这里有办公室。我这里有设施。我在这里建造东西。我怎么离开？”
Original English **Host 1**: There are literally dozens of startup **CEOs** of call it successful or growing companies that I talked to who were like dude I want to leave but I got employees here. I got an office here. I got a facility here. build stuff here. How am I going to leave?
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的，我完全理解。这是一个真实存在的问题。所以，你看，我认为就像大多数事情一样，呃，当是时候做某事并且感觉很痛苦时，有时它实际上并没有你想象的那么糟糕，你只需要行动并引领它。嗯，所以，呃，这大概就是这个过程，几乎就像我经历的一个早晨过程，事情就是这样。你正在这里组建一个团队。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah, I totally get it. It's a real thing. So, look, I think like most things, uh, sort of when it's time and it feels painful to do something, sometimes it's actually not as bad as you think and you just got to make the move and lead and do it. Um, and so, uh, that's kind of what that's kind of the process, the almost like a morning process I went through and that's just what it is. is and you're setting up a team here.
**Host 2**: 是的，当然。呃，我在湖边有一个办公室。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah, of course. Uh and I got that office right on the lake.
**Host 1**: 你拿到了吗？
Original English **Host 1**: Did you get that?
**Travis Kalanick**: 呃，我们正在谈判。不，一切都好。不，不，一切都好。我们正在谈判。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Uh it's we are negotiating. No, it's all good. No, no, it's all good. We're negotiating right now.
**Host 2**: 但我要滑水上班。
Original English **Host 2**: But I'm going to jet ski to work.
**Travis Kalanick**: 不，是真的。我们去年开车上去，我当时想，“哇，我想知道那是谁的。”他说，“那将是我的。”我当时想，“你看了吗？我看了那个，我当时想，‘那会是一个不错的。’”但事实是，你知道，我前几年有一些人搬到这里，他们都有同样的反应。天哪，我住的地方面积是以前的两倍，价格却只有一半。这里的人都很棒。食物很棒。这里每个人都有一种我们正在建设未来的感觉。这很有趣，对世界有积极影响。你知道，对我来说，我住过**纽约**、**洛杉矶**、**旧金山**。我住过这个国家三个大城市。这个城市对我来说最像家。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: No, literally we is it true story. Last year we're like driving up the thing and I was like, "Wow, I wonder who owns that." He's like, "I will." And I was like, "Did you look at It's like I looked at that and I was like, "That's a that would be a nice one." But the the truth is, you know, and I had a couple people move here a couple years ago and they all had the same reaction. Oh my god, I'm living in a place that's twice as big for half as much. The people here are dope. The food is dope. Everybody here is got this sense that we're building the future. And it's just fun and world positive. And you know, for me, I got to live **New York**, **LA**, **San Francisco**. I did three of the great cities in this country. This one feels the most like home to me,
**Host 1**: 这对我来说是一种非常奇怪的感觉，但感觉这里每个人都想建设未来，而且它非常多元化，你知道，就像所有这些不同的行业和追求事物的人。我认为这就是未来。
Original English **Host 1**: which is a very strange feeling to me, but it feels like everybody here wants to build the future and it's very diverse, you know, like all these different industries and people pursuing stuff. I I think this is the future.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。事情是这样的。就像你去了**旧金山**，当我去了**旧金山**时，我仍然有点怀旧，因为我在那里建立了 **Uber**，以及所有的一切。嗯，我仍然会感到，你知道，那种激动，我，你知道，但它确实有一些魔力。你，你就是无法把它带走。然后你看看所有这些**自行车道**和**公交车道**，它们从来没有公交车或自行车在上面。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. Here's the thing. Like you go to **San Francisco** and I still have a little nostalgia when I go to **San Francisco** just having built **Uber** there and the whole thing. Um, I still get the, you know, the butterflies just I, you know, but it does have something magical. You, you just can't take it away. And then you look at all of these bike lanes and these bus lanes that never have a bus or a bike in them
**Host 1**: 而且建造一英里要花费 **4** 亿美元。
Original English **Host 1**: and cost **$400** million to build one mile
**Travis Kalanick**: 这简直就像这种**潜意识的愿望**，要扼杀这座城市。现在请记住，我通过**道路**来看待事物。这就是我的思维方式。所以我只是觉得，显然这座城市完全崩溃了。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: and it's literally it's sort of like this subconscious desire to choke the city off. Now remember, I look at things through roads. That's how I think. So I'm just like obviously the city is totally busted.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Travis Kalanick**: 不，他们真的把**市场街**拿走了，他们就像，“什么能以最佳方式做到这一点，同时又能**表现美德**？”他们就像，“是的，公交车。”然后就像，“没有人坐公交车。没有人乘坐公交车。这是一个美丽的小镇，**旧金山**。那整条街都是空的，而且漆成了红色。”
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: No, they they literally took **Market Street** and they're like, "What would be the optimal way to this up and virtue signal at the same time?" And they're like, "Yeah, buses." And it's like, "Nobody's on the bus. Nobody takes the bus. It's a beautiful small town. **San Francisco**. That whole street is empty and painted red."
**Host 1**: 所以，好吧。所以，我们都在我们的聊天中不停地抱怨。
Original English **Host 1**: So, okay. So, we all [ __ ] and complain non-stop on our chat.
**Host 2**: 你什么时候离开？
Original English **Host 2**: When are you leaving?
**Host 1**: 我是第一名。我明白了。但是，你什么时候离开？
Original English **Host 1**: I'm number one. I get it. But, when are you leaving?
**Travis Kalanick**: 好的。嗯。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Okay. Well,
**Host 2**: 顺便说一句，在聊天中，你是最棒的。我当时想。
Original English **Host 2**: on the chat, you're the best, by the way. I'm like,
**Host 1**: 好的。所以，让我。
Original English **Host 1**: okay. So, let me just,
**Host 2**: 顺便说一句，有几杯酒在。
Original English **Host 2**: by the way, there's couple glasses of wine in
**Host 1**: 面向公众的 **Friedberg**。
Original English **Host 1**: public facing **Freedberg**
**Host 2**: 他就像，你知道，我认为有更好的方法。然后就像在群聊中的**黑武士Friedberg**。他就像，这些人，这些傻瓜正在毁灭社会。他就像群聊中的**黑武士Friedberg**。我撒谎了吗？
Original English **Host 2**: and he's like, you know, I think there's a better way to do. And then there's like **Darth Friedberg** in group chat. He's like, these people, these morons are they're destroying societ. He is like **Darth Friedberg** in group chat. Am I lying?
**Host 1**: 我撒谎了吗？他是最。
Original English **Host 1**: Am I lying? Is he the most
**Host 2**: 正确的吗？尤其是在喝了几杯酒之后。
Original English **Host 2**: correct? Especially after a couple glasses of wine.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。当我开始喝酒时，他会拍照，他会说，“第四杯饮料。”然后我们就像，“哦，这值得在群聊中熬夜。”
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. When I start drinking fall and he takes pictures, he's like, "Fourth beverage." And we're like, "Oh, it's worth staying up on the group chat."
**Host 2**: 是的。然后我就会想，我要去 **Twitter** 上攻击这个国会议员，我意识到。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah. And then I'm like, I'll go and attack this congressman on **Twitter**, which I realized.
**Host 1**: 然后你删除了推文。
Original English **Host 1**: And then you go delete the tweet.
**Host 2**: 是的。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah.
**Host 1**: 不要删除推文。
Original English **Host 1**: Don't delete the tweet.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。我删除了推文。好的。我知道有一群人试图筹集 **5** 亿美元来创建一个**科技/商业联盟**，去**萨克拉门托**，这可以说是每个人都离开并永远避免做的事情，因为没有人想花时间在**萨克拉门托**与政治家斗争，但这几乎就像我们都在悬崖边上。是时候做点什么了。你认为有一条现实的道路吗？你认为人们真的能团结起来吗，即使有 **5** 亿美元，也有办法扭转局面，修复一些政策？你认为太晚了吗？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. I delete the tweets. Okay. know there's a group of people trying to raise **$500** million to create like a **tech/ business coalition** to go to **Sacramento**, which arguably is something that everyone's left and avoided doing forever cuz no one wants to spend time in freaking **Sacramento** fighting politicians, but it's almost like we're all falling off a cliff. It's time to do something. Do you think there's a realistic path packed? Do you think the people can actually get their together that even if **500** million came in, there's a way to kind of turn around the state, fix some of the policies? You think it's too late?
**Host 1**: 我不那么认为。但是你看，我会说，看，任何人在做任何事情来修复问题，我都会说，太棒了，让我们做点什么。问题是，我们都在**科技世界**长大，那是一个**自由主义**的地方，你远离政治。
Original English **Host 1**: I don't think that. But look, I would go I look, anybody who's doing anything to fix things, I'm like, hell yeah, let's do something. The issue is we all grew up in the **tech world**, which was like a **libertarian place** where you stay out of politics and
**Travis Kalanick**: 那是一种氛围。每个人都这样。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: that kind was that kind of vibe. It was just everybody was like that.
**Host 1**: 别管我。当我想做东西的时候。
Original English **Host 1**: Leave me alone. when I want to make stuff.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。我就是我不做那个。显然这在**加州**已经不是一回事了。我认为**投票倡议**非常强大，而且有非常清晰的方法将某些东西纳入投票。我喜欢那样。我认为你的**地区检察官**已经决定我们不再强制执行犯罪了。那就像一个甜蜜点。就像我相信我有一种格言。**真相**和**正义**是社会的**免疫系统**。当**免疫系统**受到抑制时，所有的**社会弊病**都会爆发。所以寻找**真相**和**正义**正在被侵蚀，正在被降级的地方，然后说，我们如何解决这个问题？因为如果你解决了这个问题，下游的一切都会更好。所以这就是我如何看待事物，以及我如何判断世界是变得更好还是更糟。当我说奇怪时，我指的是**真相**和**正义**。这就是我的意思，当我说，“哦，伙计，它变得奇怪了。它变得更奇怪了。”这意味着它很奇怪。我只是在谈论**真相**和**正义**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. I just I'm not I don't do that. And that's obviously this not a thing anymore in **California**. I think the **ballot initiatives** are very powerful and there's very clean ways to get something on the ballot love that. I think that your **DAs** who have decided we do not enforce crime at all anymore. That's like a sweet spot. Like I believe that I sort of have this **aphorism**. **Truth** and **justice** are the **immune system for society**. When when the **immune system** is suppressed, all the **social ills** flare up. So look for the places where **truth** and **justice** are being deteriorated, are being degraded, and say, how do we get at that? Because if you get at that, everything else downstream will be better. So that's kind of how I look at things and how I also determine whether the world's getting better or worse. When I say weird, I'm talking about **truth** and **justice**. That's what I mean when I say, "Oh man, it's getting weird. It's getting weirder," which means it's weird. I'm just talking about **truth** and **justice**.
**Host 2**: 嗯，我的意思是，你看看**无家可归的工业综合体**，你看看**Chesa Boudin**，**All-In Pod**，我和播客，我们真的主导了对他的罢免。然后你在 **LA** 也看到了同样的事情，他们就像如果有人。
Original English **Host 2**: Well, I mean, and you look at the **homeless industrial complex**, you look at **Chesa Boudin**, which the **All-In Pod** sacks, myself, and the pod, like we we literally led the recall of him. And then you had the same thing going on in **LA** where they were just like if somebody
**Host 1**: **Gascon**。
Original English **Host 1**: **Gascon**
**Host 2**: 是的，**Gascon**。我的意思是，我们基本上迷失了方向。你为罪犯管理城市。这简直就像一部**蝙蝠侠电影**。这就像**贝恩**。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah, **Gascon**. I mean, we basically lost the script. You're running the city for the criminals. It literally is like a **Batman movie**. It's like **Bane**.
**Host 1**: 我的意思是，你想逮捕罪犯。
Original English **Host 1**: I mean, you want to arrest the criminals.
**Travis Kalanick**: 看。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Look,
**Host 2**: 我出生在黑暗中。我的意思是，这些人是疯子。
Original English **Host 2**: I was born in the darkness. I mean, these guys are lunatics.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。看，我认识**洛杉矶**的警官，他们不再是警官了，这些人是终身的人，他们保护和服务。那是他们的血液或 **DNA**。他们想保护人民。他们希望坏人得到处理。他们几乎患有**创伤后应激障碍**，因为他们想服务，看到坏事发生，却不被允许阻止它。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. Look, I I know police officers in **Los Angeles** who are no longer police officers, and these are lifelong guys who protect and serve. That's in their bloods or **DNA**. They want to protect people. They want the bad guys to be dealt with. And they they almost have **PTSD** from what it is like to want to serve and see bad things happening and not being allowed to stop it.
**Host 1**: 是的。没有人支持他们，他们也不被允许做他们的工作。这太疯狂了。而且我，它变得越来越奇怪。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. Nobody's got their back and they're not allowed to do their job. It's It's crazy. And I It's getting weird.
**Host 2**: 好的。嘿，我只想回到 **AI**。
Original English **Host 2**: Okay. Hey, I want to just go back to **AI**.
**Host 1**: 抱歉，带来黑暗。
Original English **Host 1**: Sorry for the darkness.
**Host 2**: 不，不，不。我认为这很好。
Original English **Host 2**: No, no, no. I think it's good.
**Host 1**: 我试图诱导，我试图诱导黑暗自由。
Original English **Host 1**: I was trying to induce I'm trying to induce dark free.
**Host 2**: 嗯，我提到了。我的意思是，谁能给我一杯**龙舌兰酒**。我要开始说了。
Original English **Host 2**: Well, I brought it up. I mean, someone bring me a tequila. I'll get going.
**Host 1**: 是的，让我们来吧。我们能喝几杯**龙舌兰酒**吗？
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah, let's do it. Can we get a couple tequilas?
**Travis Kalanick**: 很有趣。我昨天上了一个播客，那个家伙，那个家伙就像，第一个小时是平平淡淡的。我在谈论**科技**和**科学**，然后就像**政治**出现了。他就像，所以**社会主义**，他说你失控了，然后你就像他就像能量增加了 **10** 倍。是的。所以，它会在几周后出来，但我想，它让我兴奋起来了。好的。我想再谈谈**物理AI**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: It was funny. I went on this podcast yesterday and the guy and the f the guy was like the first hour was middle of the road. I was talking about **tech** and **science** and then like politics came up. He's like, so **socialism** and he said like you lost it and then you were like he's like the energy went **10x** and Yeah. So, it'll come out in a couple weeks, but I was like, it it got me going. Okay. I want to talk about **physical AI** one more time.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
### 物理AI的效率挑战与硬件进步 **Host 2**: 所以，现在你正在做这件事，我前几天看到一个演示。有人展示了一个**松鼠**从一棵树跳到另一棵树的视频。他们说，像**十分之一瓦**左右的东西，就像生物学被调整了，它在**能量利用效率**方面非常完美，可以做**物理**的事情。而我们正在用这些像大块的金属和马达和执行器，如果你把系统中所有的**低效率**加起来或复合起来，机器人走 **4** 英尺需要 **1200** 瓦。就像不仅仅是软件，还有**硬件层**，以及我们在**执行器**和**材料**以及其他一切将使**物理AI**工作和扩展的方面进展如何。哦，你看，你问的很多问题都走向了**人形机器人**的方向，这就像这个东西，每个人都在谈论如何做手？这几乎就像对**终结者2**式的手的痴迷，这很公平。就像，它是其中非常关键的一部分。我的意思是，看看我喜欢看这些机器的**阿喀琉斯之踵**，你会觉得，那里才是行动的重点。这还有其他几个地方。嗯，你看，我是在**非人形机器人**领域。我的意思是，但**机械工程师**一直在处理**执行器**和，你知道，所有那些使机器做某些事情的**机电交互**，但就像我是在**食品机械**领域，所以我可以告诉你如何打开一个纸袋，把一个碗放在纸袋里而不撕破纸袋。但我对那个不那么感兴趣，我忘记了名字，**Pero**。他们是那些理解意识和触摸的感官。嗯，我不在那个游戏中。嗯，所以当你采矿时，你就像你不知道，你知道。
Original English **Host 2**: So, one of now that now that you're doing this, I saw a presentation the other day. Someone showed like a video of a **squirrel** jumping from one tree to another tree. And they're like a **tenth of a watt** or something like like the **biology** is tuned and it's so perfect in terms of its **efficiency of energy utilization** to do **physical things**. And we're taking these like big things of metal and motors and like **actuators** and if you add up or you compound all of the **inefficiencies** in the system, it's like **1,200 watts** to get the robot to walk **4** foot. Like like break apart not just the software but the **hardware layer** and where are we at in evolving things like **actuators** and the **materials** and everything else that's going to make **physical AI** work and scale. Oh, look, a lot with the questions you're asking are going down **humanoid lane**, which is like this thing and and everybody talks about how do you do the hand? It's almost like **Terminator 2** type obsession with the hand, which is fair. Like, it's a very critical part of it. I mean, look at the I like to look at the **Achilles** the quote unquote **Achilles tendon** of any of these machines and you're like, that's where the action is. This this there's a couple other places. Um, look, I'm in the **nonhumanoid space**. I mean, but **mechanical engineers** have been dealing with **actuators** and, you know, all the sort of **electromechanical** sort of interactions that make machines do certain things, but like I'm in the **food machine space**, so I can tell you how to open a paper bag and put a put a a bowl in a paper bag without tearing the paper bag. But I am less into the I forget the name **pero**. They're they're the the senses to understand awareness and touch. Um I'm not in that game. Um so when you're mining you're like you're not like you know you know
**Travis Kalanick**: 你没有威胁。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: you're not threating
**Host 2**: 你不是在打网球。嗯，有些事情可能相当于网球。所以，看，底线是，我们显然看到，你只需要上网看看**人形机器人**随着时间的推移是如何发展的，以及它们变得多好。嗯，这太疯狂了，而且发生得太快了。但任何**人形机器人演示**都以**跳舞**和**武术**开始。
Original English **Host 2**: you're not playing tennis. Um certain things may be equivalent to tennis. So, look, the bottom line is we're seeing obviously all you have to do is go online and look at where the **humanoids** are going over time and how much better they're getting. Um, it's wild and it's happening so freaking fast. But any **humanoid demo** starts with dancing and martial arts.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah.
**Host 2**: 而我们则专注于**专用机器人**领域，也就是**有偿就业机器人**。
Original English **Host 2**: And we're sort of down **specialized robot** lane, which is **gainfully employed robots**.
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。所以，我知道我没有完全回答这个问题，技术部分，但是。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. So, I know I didn't totally answer the question, the technology piece, but
**Host 1**: 我只是想问，你是否同意在**材料科学**方面有很大的投资机会和研究机会？是的。
Original English **Host 1**: I just like do you agree that there's probably like a big opportunity for **venture money** and like **research** to go into **material science** extra? Yeah,
**Travis Kalanick**: 当然。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: for sure.
**Host 1**: 当然。因为如果**物理AI堆栈**的操纵和所有相关的东西。
Original English **Host 1**: Sure. Because if the **physical AI stack** manipulation and all of the related things around it
**Travis Kalanick**: 是巨大的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: is massive.
**Host 1**: 所以如果软件能够工作，硬件就必须跟上。是的。
Original English **Host 1**: And so if you get the software working, it's almost like the hardware has to catch up. Yes,
**Travis Kalanick**: 我们有很多。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: we got a lot of
**Host 2**: 投资者。
Original English **Host 2**: investor.
### 以资本为武器的战略与中东地缘政治影响 **Travis Kalanick**: 嗯，实际上你提到了这个很好。你知道，你在 **Uber** 时代开创的一个做法是，**以资本为武器**，你非常认真地思考，如果我们能把这笔资本从谈判桌上拿走，那就会——让我们直说吧——对竞争对手来说是一个优势，而其他竞争对手无法获得那笔资本。现在我认为人们已经看到了这种策略，他们会想，嗯，这很聪明，让我试试看。现在它的规模不同了，你已经脱离了**隐身模式**。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Well, actually was it's good that you bring this up. You know, one of the things you pioneered um at **Uber** was um **capital as a weapon** and you were very thoughtful about hey if we can take this capital off the table then that's going to let's call it what it is. It's going to be an advantage versus the competitors and these other competitors couldn't get that capital. That's now I think people have seen that playbook and they're like hm Samman's like that was smart let me try and it's at a different scale now that you've come out of stealth
**Host 1**: 现在你已经得到了，人们也开始理解，今天才开始理解你的愿景有多么宏大。
Original English **Host 1**: now that you've got and and people are starting to understand just starting today how big your vision is
**Host 2**: **以资本为武器**，这我想是你的计划，是吗？
Original English **Host 2**: capital as a weapon this is I guess in your plan yeah
**Travis Kalanick**: 嗯，我的意思是，事情是这样的，**以资本为战略武器**本身并不是一回事，但当它确实是一种**战略武器**时，它就是一回事了。我的意思是在 **Uber** 世界的早期，如果你没有**资本**，你的应用再好也没用，因为 **MASA** 会向你的竞争对手投入**十亿美元**，你明天就会失去 **20%** 的市场份额。所以一个关键的能力，事实上你世界级的竞争力之一，必须是**筹集资本**，你需要比其他人做得更好，如果你做不到，你就会输。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: well I mean here's the thing right so **capital as a strategic weapon** for its own sake is not a thing but when it is actually a **strategic weapon** And then it is a thing. And what I mean by that is like in the **Uber** world early days if you didn't have **capital** didn't matter how good your app was because **MASA** is going to put a **billion dollars** into your competitor and you're going to lose **20%** market share tomorrow. So a critical competency in fact your worldass competencies one of them has to be **raising capital** and you need to do it better than everybody else and if you don't you are going to lose.
**Host 2**: 让我再问一个后续问题。抱歉，你继续。嗯，但是**中东**。
Original English **Host 2**: Let me ask one follow up to that. Sorry you go ahead. Um but the **Middle East**
**Travis Kalanick**: 是的。我最近几天听到的理论是，现在大型资本寻求者有点，因为**中东**正在发生的**伊朗战争**。**迪拜**、**卡塔尔**、**沙特**现在有点要停止向美国输送资本了。那真实吗？我的意思是，你认为那是一个真正的威胁吗？所以你看，我们的**中东**业务原定于一月上市，但**沙特市场**在两个月内下跌了 **20%**，这对情况造成了巨大的打击。现在部分原因是油价大幅下跌。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Yeah. I've heard theories the last couple days that big **capital seekers** are kind of right now because of what's going on in the **Middle East** with the **Iran war**. **Dubai**, **Qatar**, **Saudis** are kind of going to close up the capital flowing to the US right now. And is that real? I mean, do you think that's a real threat? So look, our **Middle East business** was supposed to go public in January and the **Saudi market** was went down **20%** over like a two-month period and that was like a massive damper on the situation. Now part of it's part of that was because the oil prices had gone down so dramatically
**Host 1**: 如果你去了**沙特王国**，每个人都说，我们需要，我们需要油价上涨。呃，你知道那是等式的另一边。所以，我不知道会发生什么，就像我现在不是在市场募集资金，这是两年前的事情，我，你知道，我像其他人一样看新闻，我不会在战争期间打电话说，嘿，伙计们，你们有钱吗？嗯，所以我不知道会发生什么。但如果你是一个乐观主义者，你就像，“好吧，这不会永远持续下去。”就像**关税**一样，那是世界末日，然后很快就不是了。
Original English **Host 1**: and if you went into **KSA**, you went to the kingdom, everybody's like, we need we need oil prices to go up. uh you know that's the other side of the equation. So I don't know what h like I don't I'm not in the market raising money right at this moment and this is a twoe old thing that I you know look I see the news just like everybody else and I'm not out there calling while a war is going on and saying hey guys you got some money. Um, so I don't know exactly what's going to happen. But if you are an optimist and you're like, "Okay, this isn't this is not going on forever." Just like the **tariffs**, it was the end of the world and then it wasn't very quickly.
**Host 2**: 如果你对这种情况持乐观态度，它不会是世界末日，甚至可能是一个更好的世界，那么我们就会到达一个更好的地方。我认为。
Original English **Host 2**: If you're an optimist about this situation and it won't be the end of the world, maybe even a better world, then we get to a better place. And I think
**Travis Kalanick**: 进步，富足，**黄金时代**就会到来。其中很大一部分都与 **AI**、**物理AI**中发生的一切，以及即将以非常大规模到来的**生产力提升**有关。是的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: progress, abundance, the **golden age** happens. And a lot of it is about all the things that are happening in **AI** in **physical AI** and and and just the **productivity gains** that are coming in very massive ways. Yeah.
**Host 1**: 是的。我的意思是，那是冲击和敬畏，然后嘿，现在我们有了一个稳定状态，让我们希望**伊朗**也能如此，我们可以废黜那些邪恶的独裁者，用更稳定的东西取代它。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. And I mean it it was shock shock and awe and then hey now we've got a steady state and let's hope that's what happens in **Iran** is that we can depose these evil dictators, replace it with something a little more stable.
### 中国制造业的启示与国际人才流动 **Host 2**: 在我们结束之前，这与此相关，他们要去**中国**。正在谈判一项重要的**贸易协议**。你希望这次**中国**之行能带来什么？
Original English **Host 2**: And related to this before we wrap, they're going to **China**. There's big **trade deal** being negotiated. What do you hope comes out of this **Chinese thing**?
**Host 1**: 你从**中国**学到了什么？
Original English **Host 1**: And what did you learn in **China**?
**Host 2**: 会学到什么？你认为什么对**美国**最好？你希望看到什么，然后说，伙计，那将使我们所有人受益。不再是。
Original English **Host 2**: What would Yeah. What would you learn? And and what do you think would be great for **America**? Like what would you like to see and be like, man, that's going to set us all up. No more.
**Travis Kalanick**: 看，事情是这样的。如果你现在去**中国**，你只是去那里参观那里的**制造业**，只是**制造业基地**，那些城市，特别是如果你几十年来一直去**中国**，你会觉得，该死。是的。你所以，让我们只做两件事。你去了**深圳**，它以前感觉像**堪萨斯城**，但那是 **50** 年前，而且非常潮湿，我想**堪萨斯城**有时也是这样，但你现在去那里，它就像超越**新加坡**，对吧？或者所以那是**城市景观**。你只是在经历一个非常棒的体验。你就像，这是先进的，你只是感受到了这种氛围，它无处不在。然后你去那里，你开始看到**制造业基地**，你看到了像**小米**正在做的事情，或者其他任何一家，有那么多有闯劲的家伙，牛逼的家伙无处不在，你就像。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: Look, here's the thing. If you go to **China** right now and you go and just take a tour of the **manufacturing** that's going on there, just the **manufacturing base**, the cities, especially if you've gone to **China** for a couple decades in a row, you're like, damn. Yeah. You So, let's just do two things. You go to **Shenzhen**, which before felt like **Kansas City**, but **50** years ago and really humid, which I guess **Kansas City** sometimes, but you go there now and it's like one-upping **Singapore**, right? Or so that's the **city view**. You're just experiencing a very awesome. You're like, this is advanced and you just get the vibe and it's everywhere. And then you go and you start seeing the **manufacturing base** and you see what like **Xiaomi** is doing or any of the other there's so many scrappy guys, badass guys everywhere and you're like f
**Host 1**: 他们很饥渴。
Original English **Host 1**: they're hungry.
**Travis Kalanick**: 那么有没有人记得 **2008** 年**北京奥运会**？有人吗？有没有人，这有点深入了。有没有人记得**开幕式**？
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: So does anybody remember the **2008 Olympics** in Beijing? Anybody? Does anybody This is a little bit you're down a rabbit hole. Does anybody remember the opening ceremony?
**Host 2**: 你就会想，这些混蛋正在接管一切。至少那是他们想做的。那件事正在发生。所以，我没有任何问题，或者这对我来说不是消极的。我只是觉得，这些人干得漂亮。最好的想法正在胜出。他们激烈地，他们激烈地追求**真相**和**进步**，他们正在让事情发生。让我们加把劲。好的。但我们也可以进行一场友好的比赛。就像，我们不必像 **90** 年代的**底特律活塞队**一样，你知道吗？
Original English **Host 2**: And you're like these mofos are taking over. At least that's what they want to do. That shit's happening. So, I don't have any issue or this is not negativity for me. I'm like, these guys are killing it. The best idea is winning. They're fiercely They're fiercely going after **truth** and **progress** and they're making [ __ ] happen. Let's step up our game. Okay. But we can also have a friendly game. Like, we don't have to like be like the **Detroit Pistons** in the **'90s**, you know?
**Host 1**: 是的。我们可以，我们有办法。
Original English **Host 1**: Yes. We can we there there's a way
**Host 2**: 进入看台。
Original English **Host 2**: go into the stands.
**Host 1**: 是的。是的。你知道，有办法做这件事，对吧？有办法像成年人一样做。我希望我们最终能达到那个目标。嗯，我有一个员工，因为我们，我们，我们很长一段时间都是**中国**最大的**厨房建设者**。我有一个在**中国**的员工，他有一个**美国**妻子。好的。他们都住在**中国**。他们都来自**中国**。好的。但是希望他能在这里为我做一些事情。现在很难实现。现在，那很自私，我，就像也许自私，就像我有一个我已经合作了**十年**的人。我希望能继续在这里。也许还有其他更大的问题我没有处理。我不是**地缘政治**专家，但我希望有。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a way to do this, right? And there's a way to do it like adults. I hope that's where we would end up. Um I have a employee who because we we we for for a long time we're the largest build kitchen builders in **China**. I have an employee in **China** has an **American** wife. Okay. They both live in **China**. They're both from **China** originally. Okay. but want him to it would be great for him to work here on some things I'm doing. It's very hard to make that happen right now. Now, that's selfish like I I like maybe selfish like I'm like there's a person I've been working with for over a decade. I'd love to continue here. Maybe there's other bigger picture items that I'm not dealing with. I'm not the **geopolitical guy**, but I'd love for there to be sort of
**Travis Kalanick**: 好的。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: good
**Host 1**: 关系和好的，就像如果你有一个配偶是**美国公民**，我们必须把这变得困难吗？作为一个例子。
Original English **Host 1**: relations and good like like if you have a significant other in who is an **American citizen** like do we have to make that hard as an example
**Host 2**: 有些人通常会。
Original English **Host 2**: some normaly would
**Host 1**: 某些事情，你知道我只是说现在我同意。
Original English **Host 1**: something you know I'm just saying now I agree like
**Travis Kalanick**: 有办法正确地处理**移民**，就像我们搞砸得很严重，别让我开始说。但也有好的**移民**。就像很多伟大的**创新者**都来自其他地方，为了他们自己的**美国梦**。上帝保佑。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: there are ways to do **immigration** properly like we effed it up super bad don't to get me started. But there's also there's good **migration** too. Like a lot of great **innovators** all over the place came from other places for their own version of the **American dream**. God bless
**Host 1**: **Friedberg**。
Original English **Host 1**: **Freeberg**.
**Travis Kalanick**: 我们不必那样，那不必是消极的事情。所以我希望看到更多那样的事情。嗯，是的，**中国**很疯狂。所以让我们，呃，让我们保持警惕，让我们也让他们吃点苦头。
Original English **Travis Kalanick**: And we don't have to that doesn't have to be a negative thing. And so I'd like to see more of that. And um yeah, **China's China's** wild. So let's uh let's keep our eye on the ball and let's let's give them a run for their money, too.
**Host 2**: 掌声送给 **TK**。好的。干得好，兄弟。谢谢你。那很棒。很高兴见到你，兄弟。哇。**Michael Dell**。我的天。**德州**本地人。
Original English **Host 2**: Give it up for **TK**. All right. Well done, brother. Thank you. That was good. Good to see you, brother. Wow. **Michael Dell**. My lord. **Texas** native.
**Host 1**: **Michael**。
Original English **Host 1**: **Michael**.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。出生在**休斯顿**。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yes. Born born born in **Houston**.
### Michael Dell论德州经济与AI数据中心 **Host 2**: 嗯，我错过了开场。我们跳到了音乐部分，但你用一千美元在**奥斯汀**创办了 **Dell Computer**。
Original English **Host 2**: Well, I missed the the opening. We we jumped to the music, but you started **Dell Computer** here in Austin with a thousand bucks
**Michael Dell**: **42** 年前在我在 **UT** 的宿舍里。呃，在我完成大一学期大约 **10** 天前。
Original English **Michael Dell**: **42** years ago in my dorm room at **Dolby** at **UT**. uh about **10** days before I finished my freshman semester.
**Host 1**: 太棒了。而且进展得相当顺利。
Original English **Host 1**: Amazing. And it's been working out pretty good.
**Michael Dell**: 是的，路上有一些颠簸，但是是的，总的来说还算顺利。是的，我们今年将有大约 **1400** 亿美元的收入。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah, it's been some bumps in the road, but yeah, it's generally generally worked out okay. Yeah, we'll have about **140 billion** in revenue this year. So,
**Host 2**: 是的，没关系。它会随着时间的推移而复合，不是吗？
Original English **Host 2**: yeah, it's okay. It compounds over time, doesn't it?
**Michael Dell**: 是的。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Michael Dell**: 你知道，你从小开始，然后不断增加。
Original English **Michael Dell**: You know, you start small and just keep adding and
**Host 2**: 你就是这样做的。就这么简单。
Original English **Host 2**: there you That's how it goes. It's just that easy.
**Host 1**: 但为什么是**德州**？我想这是一个重要的事情。我们在**奥斯汀**。**Jason** 住在这里。**David Sacks** 现在也住在这里。越来越多的人从**加州**搬到**奥斯汀**。为什么是**奥斯汀**？为什么是**德州**？为什么它在这里可行？它是不是一直都可行？你知道，我认为**德州**一直以来都有。
Original English **Host 1**: But why **Texas**? Like, I think this is an important thing. We're in Austin. **Jason** lives here. **David Sacks** lives here now. More people are moving from **California** to **Austin**. Why **Austin**? Why **Texas**? Why is it work here? And is it getting better? Is it just always worked? You know, I think **Texas** has had a
**Michael Dell**: 呃，你知道，**低税收**、**支持增长**、呃，长期以来的环境，以及支持，你知道，**渐进式商业氛围**。你知道，如果你看看**德州经济**相对于**美国**其他地区的增长，如果没有**德州**，你知道，**德州**看起来就像一个更好的**美国经济**版本。呃，你知道，你现在有了，呃，**奥斯汀**现在大约在**美国前十大城市**之列。所以你有了，呃，当这种情况发生时，你将有**美国十大城市**中的四个在**德州**。在美国出生的每**十个孩子**中就有一个出生在**德州**。呃，**德州**的**纽约证券交易所**上市公司比**纽约**或其他任何地方都多。呃，你知道，**德州大学**就在**奥斯汀**这里，我总是认为它是这里许多公司的**源泉**。当然包括我们的公司，呃，你知道，悠久的**创新**、**开拓精神**和**创业精神**的历史，呃，它对我们来说一直是一个很棒的地方。
Original English **Michael Dell**: uh, you know, **low tax**, **progrowth**, uh, environment for a long time and pro, you know, sort of **progressive business climate**. And you know, if you sort of look at the the growth of the **Texas economy** relative to the rest of the **United States** without **Texas**, you know, **Texas** just kind of looks like a better version of the **US economy**. And uh you know, you now you've got uh **Austin** is sort of just about in the **top 10 cities** in in the **United States**. So you've got uh when that happens, you'll have **four of the 10 largest cities** in **America** in **Texas**. One out of **10 children** born in the **United States** born in **Texas**. Uh more **New York Stock Exchange** companies in **Texas** than in **New York** or anywhere else. And uh you know, you've got the **University of Texas** here in **Austin**, which I always think of as kind of the **wellspring** for a lot of the companies that are here. certainly ours and um you know a long history of of uh **innovative pioneering spirit** and **entrepreneurship** and um it's been a fantastic place for us
**Host 2**: 这其中的一部分我认为 **Friedberg** 和 **Michael** 是在其他大城市或曾经的大城市发生的事情，我的家乡**纽约**，我在 **LA** 度过了 **10** 年，在**湾区**度过了最后 **12** 年，那里发生的事情非常**不美国**，呃，它们正在减速，相比之下，我认为也许差距，也许是这两个地方的差距变得更大了。是的。而且你看到越来越多的人说，**奥斯汀**这里的生活似乎比我在**纽约**、**LA**或**湾区**的生活好得多。
Original English **Host 2**: and part of this I think **Friedberg** and **Michael** is what's happened in the other great cities or what were once great cities my hometown **New York** I got to spend **10** years in **LA** and the last **12** in um the **Bay Area** and what's happening there is incredibly **unamerican** uh and they're decelerating when compared and I think maybe the gap maybe and the disparity from these um two locations has gotten greater. Yeah. And you're seeing a lot more people say life there here in **Austin** seems a lot better than the life I'm living in **New York**, **LA** or in in the **Bay Area**.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。嗯，我有很多新朋友和邻居，你知道，他们已经来了。当然，我的意思是，如果你看看**移民统计数据**，**德州**吸引了大量人口。而且，我的意思是，当你，当你，当你看看这里的环境，并将其与正在发生的其他情况进行比较时，呃，它非常具有吸引力。但是，你知道，它一直以来都很好。所以，呃，对我们这些在这里呆了一段时间的人来说，这并不是什么新闻。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah. Well, I've got a lot of new friends and neighbors, you know, that that have that have that have come. And certainly, I mean, if if you look at the the the **migration statistics**, **Texas** has attracted an enormous number of people and and look, I mean, when you when you when you look at the environment here and compare it to the other kind of situations that are going on, uh it's it's it's very attractive. But, you know, it's it's kind of been great for a long time. So, uh, it's not really new news to us that have been here a while.
**Host 1**: 是的。**Elon** 在这里建造**超级工厂**时有一个很棒的经历。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. **Elon** had a great experience when he was building the the **Gigafactory** over here.
**Michael Dell**: 他们基本上让你在这里做事。你知道。
Original English **Michael Dell**: They let you do stuff here basically. You know,
**Host 1**: 他们让他建造它。
Original English **Host 1**: they let him build it
**Michael Dell**: 他说这对他的经历来说是不可思议的，因为在**加州**他们不让他建造，你知道，这些工厂。事实上，**弗里蒙特**的**Tesla工厂**只是一个他能够改造的古老工厂。所以，呃，这里也发生了一些事情，关于**数据中心**，而且那实际上，我认为，非常接近你正在 **Dell** 工作的领域。也许你可以谈谈**德州**正在发生的**数据中心**繁荣，也许人们没有注意到。
Original English **Michael Dell**: which he said was like an incredible experience for him because in **California** they didn't let him build, you know, these factories. And in fact, the **Tesla factories** that in **Fremont** was just an old ancient factory that he was able to retrofit. So, uh, there's something going on here as well with the **data centers** and and that's actually, I think, very close to what you're working on at **Dell**. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the **data center boom** that's going on in **Texas** that maybe people aren't paying attention to.
**Michael Dell**: 当然。嗯，你知道，显然**AI基础设施**的大规模建设一直在进行中。这需要，你知道，大量的**新数据中心**，大量的电力。**德州**，你知道，在这方面相对于其他州有巨大的优势。大量的电力，大量的土地，而且它，而且你可以建造东西，对吧？所以，在**西德州**的一些城市和小镇，那里人口不多，所以他们对在偏远地区建造**数据中心**不太反对，那里有土地和电力。所以，嗯，是的，我的意思是，对**Token**的需求是巨大的。你知道，我们一直在**德州**以外的全球范围内建造这些 **AI数据中心**。你知道，这方面的增长是巨大的。你知道，我们推出了第一个 **H100** 服务器。那是在 **ChatGPT** 发布前几周。你知道，呃，我们在这个领域的业务进展已经从 **20** 亿美元增长到 **100** 亿美元，再到 **250** 亿美元，今年将达到 **500** 亿美元。所以，所以巨大的增长，当你思考这些模型正在创造什么时，计算领域发生了一个**相变**，对吧？我们，我们，我们有 **60** 年的计算历史。现在我们有能够思考并帮助我们思考的机器。所以对这种**智能**的需求，你知道，这些模型很棒，但它们也将是它们有史以来最糟糕的版本，并且它们将继续改进。所以我们只是看到，呃，需求远大于供应。而且这不仅仅发生在**超大规模公司**和**云服务提供商**中。它也发生在**4000** 家企业中，我们在那里建造这些 **Dell AI工厂**。它也发生在**主权AI**中，你知道，就像与 **Palantir** 一样，你知道，人们想保护他们的数据，但也想在上面使用 **AI**。他们想把 **AI** 带到他们数据所在的地方。你知道，当几年前这种情况开始发生时，我们有一些非常复杂的**大型公司**，想想那些**财富100强**公司，他们开始，你知道，从我们这里购买这些 **AI服务器**，他们知道自己在做什么，对吧？你知道，呃，我们问他们你在做什么，他们，他们正在建立自己的模型，他们正在使用**开源模型**，他们正在运行它们。其中一些是**算法交易员**，或者，你知道，**机器学习**的衍生品，当然，嗯，他们在做这些方面需要很多帮助，因为它有点复杂。所以大约两年前，我们推出了这个产品，我们称之为 **Dell AI工厂**，现在我们有 **4000** 多个这样的工厂，它正在企业中迅速蔓延。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Sure. Well, there's, you know, obviously been enormous buildout of **AI infrastructure** and that requires, you know, lots of new **data centers**, lots of power. **Texas**, you know, has an enormous uh advantage there relative to other states. Lot of power, a lot of land, and it's and and you can build stuff, right? So, there's there's been a massive buildout particularly in some of the cities in and towns in **West Texas** where there's not a lot of population and so they're not really too opposed to having **data centers** out in the middle of nowhere where there's land and power. And so um yeah, I mean the the the demand for **tokens** is enormous. You know, we've been building these **AI data centers** not just here in **Texas**, but around the world. And you know, the growth in that has been tremendous. You know, we we introduced the the first uh **H100** server. It was literally a couple weeks before **ChatGPT** was announced. And you know uh the progression of our business in that area has sort of gone from like **2 billion** to **10 billion** to **25 billion** to this year it'll be like **50 billion**. So so tremendous growth and when when you think about what these models are creating there's this **phase change** that's happened in computing right we we we had **60** years of calculating computing. Now we have machines that are thinking and helping us think. And so the demand for that kind of **intelligence** and you know the models are amazing but they're also the worst they'll ever be and they continue to improve. And so we just see uh a lot more demand than supply. And it's happening not just in the **hyperscalers** and the **cloud service providers**. It's happening in **4,000 enterprises** where we building these these **Dell AI factories**. It's happening in **sovereign AI**, you know, like with **Palantir** and, you know, people want to protect their data but also use **AI** on it. They want to bring the **AI** to where their data is. And you know when this kind of started a few years ago, we had some really sophisticated uh large companies think of like **Fortune 100** and they started you know buying these **AI servers** from us and and they kind of knew what they were doing right you know and and uh we said what what are you doing and and they they were they were kind of taking uh building their own models they were taking **open-source models** they were running them some of them were were **algorithmic traders** or you know derivatives of **machine learning** and of course um they needed a lot of help in in doing that cuz it it it was sort of a complicated thing. So about two years ago, we we put together this product that we we we called the **Dell AI factory** and now we've got **4,000** plus of these and it's kind of running rampant across enterprises.
**Host 1**: 你如何看待。
Original English **Host 1**: How do you think about
### AI投资回报与企业转型 **Host 2**: 对投资回报期的看法？**政府**出台了**加速折旧**的政策。
Original English **Host 2**: the payback time on the investment that's being made? The administration put in place this **accelerated depreciation** rule. the cont.
**Michael Dell**: 是的，那实际上非常有帮助。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah, that's very helpful actually.
**Host 2**: 所以对于那些想了解一点的人来说，如果你今年花费**一千亿美元**建造**数据中心**并购买**基础设施**，你可以**100%**地抵扣。对吗？
Original English **Host 2**: So just for folks to understand that a little bit like if you spend a **hundred billion dollars** this year building and **data centers** and buying **infrastructure** for those **data centers**, you get to write off **100%** of that this year. Correct.
**Michael Dell**: 扣除它。所以你不交税。你交更少的税。
Original English **Michael Dell**: To deduct it. So you don't pay taxes. You pay way much fewer tax
**Host 2**: 而且那将持续 **10** 年。我想。
Original English **Host 2**: and that's in place for **10** years. I think
**Michael Dell**: 那是一个**十年**的协议。所以它正在加速投资。那有多大帮助？与人们如何理性化投资与他们将获得的**回报**以及**时间尺度**相比？这仍然是一个大问题。钱真的在那里吗？**超大规模公司**也许他们正在崛起，但最终用途，最终状态，我们是不是有点，嘿，等待观望，我们还不知道，还是人们在投资后第一年就获得了 **20%** 的**投资回报率**？你知道，我，我，我可以说在我们的业务中，在我们的公司中，我们肯定看到很多用例，其中**投资回报率**或**生产力效率**的提升立即达到 **20%** 或更高。
Original English **Michael Dell**: that's a **10-year** deal. So it's accelerating the investment. How much is that helping versus how are you seeing folks rationalize the investment relative to the return they're going to make and over what time scale? This is still the big question. Is the money really there? The **hyperscalers** maybe they're starting to come up but end usage end states are we kind of hey wait and see we don't know yet or folks are getting **20% ROIC** starting in year one after they've made the investment. You know, I I I can tell you in in our business in in our company, we definitely see plenty of use cases where the **ROI** or the improvement in **productivity efficiency** is **20%** or or greater
**Host 1**: 立刻。它做到了。
Original English **Host 1**: right away. It gets there.
**Michael Dell**: 我的意思是，你知道，它不是你只需按一下按钮就能获得 **20%**。对吧？这需要思考过程的工作，也许值得稍微描述一下。所以你知道，当你有一个公司时，它的流程、工具和技术是它创建这些东西时可用功能的体现。所以你必须做的是退后一步，然后说，好的，工具改进的轨迹是什么？我们试图创造什么样的结果？现在让我们简化和标准化流程。把所有工具放在一起。把所有数据放在一起，然后应用技术，这确实需要以自上而下的方式进行。呃，你不能，你知道，在筒仓中自发地进行改进，这通常意味着你正在彻底改变组织的运作方式。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I mean it, you know, it's not like you just hit a button and you get **20%**. Right? There's there's work required in thinking through the processes and maybe it's worth a little bit describing that. So you know when you have a a any company its processes and tools and technology are a function of what was available at the time it created those things. And so what you sort of have to do is step back and say all right what's the trajectory of the improvement of the tools? What outcome are we trying to create? And now let's simplify and standardize the processes. Get all the tools together. get all the data together and then apply the technology and this really has to be done in kind of a **tops down way**. Uh you can't sort of do it spontane in you know in in silos are not going to spontaneously improve themselves and often that means that you're completely changing the way the organization works.
**Host 2**: 这就像**彻底的重新架构**。
Original English **Host 2**: It's like a **wholesale rearchitecture**.
**Michael Dell**: 这是**公司运作方式的重新构想**。你知道，我的意思是，我大约在三年前向我们的团队描述了这一点。你知道，呃，我们将在五年后有一个新的竞争对手，那将是两年后，你知道，那是在我们所处的每一个业务领域，只不过他们会更快、更具创新性、更成功、成本更低，他们会让我们倒闭。而我们阻止这种情况发生的唯一方法是，我们要成为那家公司。这就是我们要做的方法。你知道，这让一些人兴奋，让一些人害怕。但实际上我相信这会发生。所以我们一直在**大幅改变我们的业务**。我可以说迄今为止最大的好处是**速度**。我们能够更快地应用**创新**。所以，你知道，你看看我们的**基础设施业务**，上个季度增长了 **73%**。嗯，对于这种规模的业务来说，这有点不寻常。
Original English **Michael Dell**: It's a it's a **reimagining of the way a company works**. And you know, I mean, the way I described this to our team about **3** years ago is, you know, uh, we were going to have a new competitor **5** years from now, that would be two years from now, you know, that was in every business that we're in except they were going to be faster and more innovative and more successful and lower cost and they were going to put us out of business. And the only way we were going to prevent that is is we're going to become that company. And here's how we're going to do it. And you know, it excited some people, it scared some people. And but I actually believe that that's what's going to happen. And and so we've been **dramatically changing our business**. I would say the biggest benefit by far is **speed**. We're much faster at being able to apply **innovations**. And so, you know, you look at our at our **infrastructure business** last quarter grew **73%**. Well, that's kind of unusual for a business of this size.
**Host 1**: 呃，你知道，这个季度我们指导说它会增长更快，像 **100%**。所以。
Original English **Host 1**: And uh you know, this quarter we guided that it would grow even faster, like **100%**. So,
**Host 2**: 你经历了几次**范式转变**。**PC革命**显然是你领导的。嗯，然后你当然有，你知道**客户端-服务器**，**网络革命**，在线**互联网云**，**移动**。
Original English **Host 2**: you've lived through a couple of **paradigm shifts** here. The **PC revolution** obviously you led that. Um and then you of course had you know **client server**, the **network revolution**, online uh **internet cloud**, **mobile**.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。所以每一个都看到了大规模的颠覆。我们当时在休息室谈论，嘿，我们以前有一个打字室。有一个邮件收发室。所有这些东西都被 **PC** 和 **PC革命**抽象掉了。嗯，但这花了**一二十年**，而这次发生得更快。是的。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah. So each one of those we saw **massive disruption**. We were talking in in the green room about hey we used to have a typing pool. There was a mail room. All these things got abstracted away by the **PC** andorked **PC revolution**. Um but it took a decade or two and this one's happening a lot faster. Yeah.
**Host 1**: 是的。这一次我认为它就像，嗯，你知道一个季度就像一年，也许它快了**五倍**左右。但是回到你的问题，我，我，我可能会说大约 **10%** 或 **15%** 的大型公司真正搞清楚了这一点，其余的公司则有点摸索。你知道，当听到一项新技术时，有一种倾向，就像，哦，让我们就去做吧。你知道，给老板看，嘿，我们做了 **AI**。你知道。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. This one I think it's it's like um you know a quarter is like a year maybe it's **five times faster** or something like that. But but back to your question, I I I would say maybe **10** or **15%** of large companies have really figured this out and the rest of them are kind of fumbling around. And you know, there's a tendency when when you hear about a new technology to like, oh, let's just let's just go do it. You know, show the boss, hey, we did **AI**. You know,
**Host 2**: 董事会说我们必须做 **AI**。我们必须做 **AI**，伙计们。
Original English **Host 2**: the board said we got to do **AI**. We got to do **AI**, guys.
**Host 1**: 我们需要 **AI**。你为我骄傲吗，老板？你知道。
Original English **Host 1**: We need **AI**. Are you proud of me, boss? You know,
**Host 2**: 嗯。
Original English **Host 2**: um and
**Host 1**: 看看我做了什么。没错。而且我也认为，你知道，关于这个有一个重要观点，那就是。
Original English **Host 1**: look at what I made. Exactly. And I also think you know there's an important point about about uh this which is
**Michael Dell**: 你知道，**技术采用**的障碍不是技术，而是**文化**和**领导力**以及**勇气**，对吧？所以。
Original English **Michael Dell**: you know the barrier to **technology adoption** is is not technology it's **culture** and **leadership** and **courage** right and and so
**Host 1**: 改变的意愿。
Original English **Host 1**: willingness to change and
**Michael Dell**: 你知道，如果你在一个你认为变化不大或者，你知道，艰难变化确实很艰难的业务中，你必须，这可能会非常不舒服，你会想，好吧，我们不会再做那个了。好吧，我们不再需要这个了。
Original English **Michael Dell**: and you know if you if you're in a business that you don't think is changing very much or you know hard change is really hard right you you have to it can be very uncomfortable you're like, well, we're going to stop doing that. Well, we don't need this anymore.
**Host 2**: 特别是如果你的奖金取决于不搞砸事情。但是，让我们以**互联网**为类比，你近距离看到了它。有一些企业成功地完成了**互联网转型**。他们成功地完成了转型。也许 **Macy's.com** 与 **Sears Roebuck** 相比，对吧？就像也许 **Macy's** 比 **Sears** 更好地利用了**互联网**。但后来出现了**互联网原生企业**，似乎把他们都淘汰了，也许**亚马逊**是一个很好的例子，或者，嗯，**CSN Stores** whatever they be **Wayfair** 等。如何正确看待各行各业的这种演变？我们是否会有。
Original English **Host 2**: Particularly if your bonus is dependent on not messing things up. But let's go, let's use the **internet** as an analogy, which you saw up close. There were businesses that were **internet transition** successful. They made the transition. Maybe **Macy's.com** versus **Sears Roebuck**, right? Like maybe **Macy's** did a better job of taking advantage of the **internet** than **Sears**. But then there was **internet native businesses** that seemed to blow them all out and maybe **Amazon's** a good example or um **CSN stores** whatever they be **Wayfair** etc. What's the right way to think about this evolution in industries generally? Are we going to have
**Michael Dell**: 他们的业务会成功转型，那些不转型就会消亡吗？这真的会，我们会看到**AI原生企业**在每个行业出现并颠覆一切吗？我相信我们会，当然，你知道，当你和 **Stripe** 的 **Collison** 兄弟交谈时，他们会告诉你，**2025** 年批次公司的增长速度大约是 **2018** 年公司的**四倍**，所以每年新批次的公司都在以更快的速度增长，因为他们从所有这些新工具开始，你知道。
Original English **Michael Dell**: their businesses are going to transition successfully and those that aren't and they're going to die? And is this really going to are we going to see **AI native businesses** in every industry come in and just disrupt everything? I believe we will and certainly you know when you talk to the **Collison brothers** at **Stripe** they'll tell you that the rate of growth of the **2025 cohort** companies is about **four times faster** than the **2018** companies and so every year comp the new batch of companies are growing faster and faster because they're starting with all these new tools that you know
**Host 1**: 因为他们看到了他们平台上所有的新公司。
Original English **Host 1**: because they see all the new companies on their platform.
**Michael Dell**: 没错。所以当你想到一家现有公司，好的，它已经存在，它拥有，比方说，它有品牌，它有资产负债表，它有，你知道，客户关系，以及其他东西，对吧？好的。嗯，但这些就像是**正在贬值的资产**。如果它不迅速改变并进入另一边，我认为它会倒闭。这正是我三年前对我们团队所说的话。呃，我想，你知道，你必须勇敢，你必须做出这些改变，才能不仅生存下来，而且茁壮成长。你知道，我这样想，我们如何准备我们的公司，以便为 **2030** 年代做好准备？
Original English **Michael Dell**: Exactly. And so when when you think about uh an incumbent company, okay, that already exists, it has, let's say, it's got brands, it's got balance sheets, it's got, you know, customer relationships, whatever stuff, right? Okay. Um, but that's sort of like those are **expiring value assets**. If it doesn't change quickly and get onto the other side of this, I think it will go out of business. And which is exactly the speech I gave to our team, you know, three three years ago. And uh I think, you know, you you you you you have to be uh bold and you got to go make those changes to to not only survive this, but but to but to thrive. And you know, I think about it is how do we prepare our company to be ready for the **2030s**,
**Host 2**: 对吗？是不是就像，它更多的是故事线。要做的事情比以往任何时候都多。就像**互联网**出现时，**西尔斯**不仅仅需要在本地销售。他们可以向世界销售。
Original English **Host 2**: right? Isn't it like it's much more it's kind of the story line. There's more to do than there ever was. It's like when the **internet** arrive kind of came around, **Sears** doesn't just need to sell locally. They can sell to the world.
**Michael Dell**: 嗯，当然。我的意思是，这就是重点，当我们拥有更好的工具时，我们可以做更多的事情，对吧？呃，你知道，当我听到人们说，“哦，你知道，嗯，也许我们只会拥有所有这些伟大的工具，我们不会做更多的事情。我们只会用更少的人做同样的事情。”这听起来不对。我的意思是，会有一些这样的情况，但我认为大部分情况是，我们只会做更多的事情。我们将解决更多问题。我们将加速**科学发现**。我们将发明各种新事物。我们将解决所有尚未解决的问题。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Well, sure. I mean, this is the point when when when we have better tools, we can do way more things, right? And and uh you know, when you know, when I hear people say, "Oh, you know, um maybe we're just going to have all these great tools and we we won't do more things. we'll just do the same things with fewer people. It doesn't sound right to me. I I mean, there'll be some of that, but I think most of it will be we're just going to do a whole lot more things. We're going to solve a lot more problems. We're going to accelerate **scientific discovery**. We're we're we're going to invent all sorts of new things. We're going to solve all sorts of problems that haven't been solved.
**Host 1**: 你知道，那太令人兴奋了。
Original English **Host 1**: And you know, that's that's super exciting.
### AI基础设施：中心化与边缘计算 **Host 2**: 我们在**基础设施**方面有什么问题？所以最初的构建周期看起来很像所有东西都在**数据中心**里。所有东西都必须在那里。那是所有的**智能**所在。所有东西都将在这些**托管专有云模型**中。你认为它是**开源**的吗？它是在**边缘**分布的吗？**智能**在哪里，**推理**在哪里？这真的会如何改变或重新架构行业？
Original English **Host 2**: What do we have wrong on **infrastructure**? So the original build cycle looked a lot like everything's in a **data center**. Everything's got to sit there. That's where all the **intelligence**. It'll all be in these kind of **hosted proprietary cloud models**. Do you think that it's **open source**? Is it distributed on the **edge**? Where does the **intelligence** where does the **inference** sit? And how does that really change or kind of rearchitect the industry?
**Michael Dell**: 你认为这真的都是以上吗？我的意思是，它不是只有一个答案。我的意思是，当然，如果你去任何**工业公司**或**自然资源公司**，**先进制造业**，**零售**，**物流**，**边缘**有大量的**推理**，而且增长非常非常快，呃，你知道我们制造了很多嵌入式设备，当然，你知道，电信公司也在做。我的意思是，几乎每个行业都想想看，无论数据在哪里生成，你都希望 **AI基础设施**和**推理**，你知道，靠近数据。嗯，你知道，一直以来都有一种重新平衡，因为公司们已经搞清楚了，你知道，每个人都喜欢**公共云**，对吧？直到他们收到账单，对吧？他们收到账单，他们会想，等等，这应该能帮我们省钱。
Original English **Michael Dell**: it's really all the above? I mean it it's not like there's one answer. I mean certainly if you go to uh any **industrial company** or **natural resources company** advanced **manufacturing retail logistics** there's tons of **inference at the edge** and that's growing very very fast and uh you know we make a lot of that **embedded equipment** certainly you know **telos** are doing that too I mean it's pretty much every every industry think about wherever data is being created you want the **AI I infrastructure** and the **inference** you know close to the data. Um you know there there there has been this sort of rebalancing as companies have figured out you know sort of everybody loves the **public cloud** right until they get the bill right they get the bill they're like wait this is supposed to save us money yes
**Host 1**: 花费更多。所以，你知道，最低成本的 **Token** 将是在数据所在的设备上直接生成的那个。你将拥有，你知道，在你的手机、你的电脑上，在每个嵌入式设备中生成**Token**。而且，你看，我们对这个业务有一个有趣的视角，因为我们有 **10000** 个客户，他们将我们的产品嵌入到他们的产品中。这，你知道，想想**医疗设备**、**安全**、医院和工厂中的各种东西，你知道，任何一种，你知道，**数据驱动的活动**都需要某种计算、网络、存储基础设施。
Original English **Host 1**: costs quite a bit more. So, you know, the the the lowest cost **token** is going to be the one that's generated right where the data is on the device. You're going to have, you know, **tokens** being generated on your phone, on your **PC**, in every embedded piece of equipment. And and look, we have an interesting perspective on this business because we have **10,000** customers where they embed our product in their product. This is you know think **medical devices**, **security**, all sorts of things in hospitals and industrial plants and you know any any kind of uh you know uh **datadriven activity** right requires some kind of computing network storage infrastructure.
**Host 2**: 是的。所以当你，呃，看看你起步时的**台式机**，它正在**回归**，这一定让你感到非常有趣或引人入胜，你看到了这种**开放爪**运动。每个人都试图购买他们能买到的最强大的**台式机**，所有这些曾经是你的客户的业余爱好者，他们打电话给你，从，你知道，**Dell** 订购他们的定制 **PC**。现在他们。
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah. So when you um look at the **desktop** where you started, it's coming full circle and this must be at least very interesting or intriguing to you that you see this **open claw movement**. Everybody trying to buy the most powerful **desktop** they can and all these hobbyists who were your customers who were calling you up and ordering from, you know, **Dell**, their their bespoke **PC**. Now they're
**Michael Dell**: **Dell.com**。
Original English **Michael Dell**: **Dell.com**.
**Host 2**: 我说了什么？**Dell.com**。是的。
Original English **Host 2**: What did I say? **Dell.com**. Yeah,
**Michael Dell**: 你说从 **Dell** 订购。打电话给我们。他们通常在线订购。
Original English **Michael Dell**: you said ordering from **Dell**. Calling us up. They they they order online usually.
**Host 2**: 他们现在在线订购。是的。
Original English **Host 2**: They order online now. Yes.
**Michael Dell**: 我们有这个叫做**互联网**的东西。
Original English **Michael Dell**: We have this thing called the **internet**.
**Host 2**: 他们做到了。进展得很顺利。嗯，但这太不可思议了，他们都在堆叠计算机并运行，你知道，呃，本地模型。我只是回想起我拥有的前几台计算机在 **1980** 年花了 **4000** 美元。然后价格降下来了。你可以用 **500** 美元，**800** 美元买到一台 **Dell**，像那样价格的非常好的笔记本电脑。嗯，使用促销代码 **allin**。嗯，这不是赞助商。这是一个笑话。嗯，但你认为会有一个世界，我们开始看到**台式机**重新崛起，因为人们想保护他们的数据，他们想保护他们正在建立的技能。他们不想把它交给 **Sam Altman**，放在某个云端。他们不想把它交给**谷歌**，无论是谁。嗯，而且**台式机革命**会卷土重来，每个人都拥有一台 **10000** 美元的**台式机**吗？那会到来吗？
Original English **Host 2**: They do. It works out pretty well. Um but this is incredible that they're like all stacking computers and and running, you know, uh local models. I was just thinking back to how much the first couple of computers I owned cost **$4,000** in **1980**. And then the prices came down. You can buy a **Dell** for **500** bucks, **800** bucks, like really nice laptops for that price. Um, use the promo code **allin**. Um, it's not a sponsor. It's a joke. Um, but do you think there's a world where we're going to start to see the **desktop** because people want to protect that data, they want to protect the skills they're building. They don't want to give it to **Sam Altman**, put it in a cloud somewhere. They don't want to give it to **Google**, whoever it happens to be. Um, and that the **desktop revolution** comes back and everybody's got a **$10,000 desktop**. Is that coming?
**Michael Dell**: 我不知道每个人都会有 **10000** 美元的**台式机**，但那会很棒。我的意思是，你知道，呃，嗯，你知道，所以我们有这个 **Dell** 呃，**Hugging Face** 上的门户，我们有所有这些**开放模型**，我们已经在我们拥有的各种机器上验证了它们，你知道，**开源模型**取得了巨大的进展。你知道，**谷歌**有这些 **Gemma** 模型，**GMMA**，它们在小型机器上运行得非常好。你知道，**OpenAI** 有他们的**开源模型**。你还有 **Nvidia Neotron** 模型。你拥有，你知道，巨大的呃，**开源生态系统**，它正在，你知道，蓬勃发展，当然还有**开放爪**，你知道，关于那个会有一些好的讨论。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I don't know if everyone will have **$10,000 desktop**, but that would be great. I mean, you know, uh um you know, so we have this **Dell** uh portal on **Hugging Face** and we have all these **open models** and we qualified them on every kind of machine we have and you know there's been enormous progress in the **open source models**. You know, **Google** has these **Gemma models**, **GMMA**, and they work really, really well on small machines. You know, **OpenAI** has their **open- source models**. You got the **Nvidia Neotron models**. You've got, you know, enormous uh **ecosystem of open- source** that is, you know, thriving and certainly **open claw** and, you know, there'll be some good discussion about that.
**Host 1**: 有多少人设置了 **OpenClaw**？请举手。我的天啊。那大约是这里观众的 **20%**。
Original English **Host 1**: How many people have set up **OpenClaw**? Raise your hand. Oh my lord. That's about what a **20%** of the audience here.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。所以，你知道，**自主代理**，嗯，这是一件大事。当然在公司内部，将会有更多的**自主代理**。这需要重大的**安全要求**。我们需要能够验证这些**代理**的身份和它们正在做的事情，你知道，并拥有正确的控制等等。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah. So, you know, **autonomous agents**, um, big deal. And certainly inside companies, there's going to be a lot more **autonomous agents**. There are significant **security requirements** that need to go with that. We need to we need to be able to authenticate and validate who these **agents** are and what they're doing and, you know, have the right controls and and and that sort of thing.
### AI与AGI的未来展望 **Host 2**: 是的。呃，你对 **AGI** 的看法，以及我们何时会达到它？你是否真的思考过**超级智能**和 **AGI**，以及它们可以解决的两类问题？你是否有自己喜欢的个人定义，当你与团队内部讨论事物如何发展时？
Original English **Host 2**: Yeah. and uh your take on uh **AGI** and when we're going to hit it like do you actually think about **super intelligence** and **AGI** and the the the two sets of problems that could solve there and do you have a personal definition that you like to use for those when you're talking internally with your team of how things are moving?
**Michael Dell**: 我，我，我真的不知道，**Jason**。嗯，你知道，我认为感觉就像随着最新的发布，我们在后台讨论过这个，呃，你知道，**Gemini 3.1**，**Opus 4.6**，**OpenAI 5.4**，感觉我们好像达到了某种阈值，模型的质量，呃，就是如此巨大。而且，你知道，当我听到我们的团队能够在一天或两周内完成的事情，那以前需要几个月或九个月的时间，你知道，这简直是惊人的**创新速度**。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I I I don't really know **Jason**. Um, you know, I I think if it feels like with the latest releases, we were talking about this backstage, uh, you know, the **Gemini 3.1**, the **Opus 4.6**, the **OpenAI 5.4**, it feels like we sort of u hit some kind of threshold where the just the quality of the the models are are just tremendous. and and and and you know when I listen to what our teams are able to accomplish in a day or two weeks that would have taken them you know a few months or nine months time you know it's it's just amazing the **speed of of innovation**.
**Host 1**: 是的。所以。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah. And so
**Michael Dell**: 它似乎正在持续，我们获得了所有的**强化学习**，而且还有大量的**私有暗数据**，这些模型还没有应用到这些数据上，这正是这些数据正在发生的事情。
Original English **Michael Dell**: it it seems to be continuing and we get all the **reinforcement learning** and there's also tons of **private dark data** that these models haven't been applied to and that's sort of what's happening with these
**Host 2**: 我认为**自动化研究**是关键，**自动化研究**的关键在于，能够获取一个标准模型，然后在你的**私有数据**上重新训练它，并保持其私有性，为你的组织建立基于你数据历史的优势，而其他人没有。这似乎是很多有能力的人正在思考的问题。但如果你今天创办一家公司，它不是在**计算领域**，你从头开始建立一个企业，你会如何架构你的人员和你的组织原则，作为一个**AI优先**的公司，了解你对**计算**和事物发展方向的了解？你会雇佣人吗？你会雇佣一大批人来运行一大批**代理**吗？你今天如何思考新业务的架构？
Original English **Host 2**: I think the **auto research** is the that's the the key with **auto research** the capacity to take a standard model and then retrain it on your **private data** and keep it private and build an advantage for your organization based on the history of your data that no one else has. That seems to be what a lot of folks are thinking about that have the capacity. But if you were to start a company today that was not in computing and you were to build a business from the ground up, how would you architect your people and your organizational principles as an **AI** kind of first knowing what you know about computing and where things are headed? Are you hiring people? Are you hiring a bunch of people to run a bunch of **agents**? How do you think about architecting a new business today?
**Michael Dell**: 这是一个很好的问题。我真的没有花很多时间思考这个问题。你知道，我在思考如何，如何运行。
Original English **Michael Dell**: It's a great question. I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about that. You know, I'm thinking about how do how do I run
**Host 1**: 我们其他人都在思考什么。
Original English **Host 1**: what the rest of us are thinking about.
**Michael Dell**: 我如何运行我们的公司？我的意思是，那已经足够困难了。所以。
Original English **Michael Dell**: How do I how do I run our company? I mean, that's hard enough. So,
**Host 2**: 是的，我采访的每个人，都会问这个问题。他们就像，每个人都去这些**场外会议**，他们就像，我周一实际上正在和我的管理团队做这个。我们正在做一个拆解，就像，“嘿，我们今天会如何以不同的方式构建业务？”知道。
Original English **Host 2**: yeah, everyone I talk to, that's the question. They're like, everyone goes to these **off sites** and they're like, I'm actually doing this with my management team on Monday. We're doing like a tear down be like, "Hey, how would we build the business differently today?" Knowing
**Michael Dell**: 我的意思是，我们一直在思考的是。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I mean what we've been thinking a lot about is
**Host 1**: 这有点像这种**重新构想**的问题。是的。
Original English **Host 1**: it's sort of this this reimagining question. Yeah.
**Michael Dell**: 你知道，就像，好吧，我们知道工具的轨迹。**27、28、29** 年的工具会是什么样？我们如何加速，你知道，我们达到那个目标的道路？
Original English **Michael Dell**: You know, sort of all right, we know the trajectory of the tools. What are the tools going to be in **27 28 29** and how do we accelerate you know our path to that?
### AI的社会影响与机遇 **Host 2**: 你对**社会问题**有多担心？所以 **AI** 最近被评为一系列术语中最不受欢迎的，包括**总统**。
Original English **Host 2**: How worried are you about social issues? So **AI** recently ranked as the most unfavorable term of a list of terms including president.
**Host 1**: 它介于 **ISIS**、**民主党**、**ICE**、**ISIS** 和**民主党**之间。
Original English **Host 1**: It was somewhere between **ISIS**, the **Democrats**, **ICE**, **ISIS**, and the **Democrats**.
**Host 2**: **ICE** 比 **AI** 好。
Original English **Host 2**: **ICE** was better than **AI**.
**Host 1**: 人们喜欢 **ICE** 代理。
Original English **Host 1**: People liked **ICE mass agents**
**Host 2**: 比喜欢 **AI** 更多。
Original English **Host 2**: more than they like **AI**.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。嗯，我认为，我认为部分问题是它，它，呃，你知道，也许被出售为。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah. Well, I think I think part of the problem is it's been it's been uh you know maybe sold as
**Host 1**: 就像，你知道，它，它，它似乎以人类的方式呈现自己。
Original English **Host 1**: as you know it it it sort of presents itself like a human would.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah.
**Host 1**: 对吗？你知道，也许如果我们称之为**线性代数**。
Original English **Host 1**: Right. And you know maybe if we called it **linear algebra**
**Michael Dell**: **矩阵乘法**。
Original English **Michael Dell**: **matrix multiplication**
**Host 1**: 和**统计学**。
Original English **Host 1**: and **statistics** instead
**Michael Dell**: **矩阵乘数**也许会更友好。我不知道，你知道。
Original English **Michael Dell**: **matrix multiplier** maybe that would be more friendly. I don't know you know.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Michael Dell**: 但你认为，你认为我们会，不，我认为你是对的。定位是错误的，然后我们没有向人们传达，嘿，这可以帮助**医疗保健**，这可以让你活得更久，这可以帮助你的孩子接受更好的教育，这可以帮助解决**住房成本**，这可以帮助解决**食品成本**。抛开信息传递不谈，我的意思是，你实际上有多担心。
Original English **Michael Dell**: But do you think do you think we're going to have No, I think you're right. the positioning is wrong and then we're not communicating to people, hey, this could help **healthcare**, this could make you live longer, this could help your kids get educated more, that this could help with **housing costs**, this could help with **food cost**. Messaging aside, I mean, how much do you actually worry
**Host 2**: 关于**就业**的颠覆或错位，关于一些人的收入加速和另一些人的收入减速，这些人在社会中感到被抛弃？这开始助长更多那种**社会担忧**和政治家说，“嘿，我们必须停止建造所有**数据中心**，你知道，像那种东西。”你到底有多。
Original English **Host 2**: about **disruption** or **dislocation** in **employment**, about acceleration of earnings for some people and deceleration for other people in society that feel left behind? And that starts to fuel more of the kind of **social concerns** and politicians saying, "Hey, we got to stop building all the **data centers**, you know, like that kind of stuff." And and how much are you really
**Michael Dell**: 我倾向于，你知道，更乐观，嗯，你知道，我确实认为在所有**技术周期**中，你都会得到这种**网络效应**。呃，那**不可避免**。但我也认为，你知道，呃，我们会用工具做更多的事情。你确实有这种各种伟大事物的加速。我的意思是，**教育**可以**大幅改进**，**科学发现**，**医疗保健**，**能源**，你知道，所有那些未解决的问题都可以加速。最终，我认为这是**人类潜能**和**能力**的放大。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I I tend to be, you know, more optimistic and and um you know, I I do I do think that in all **technology cycles**, you get sort of these **network effects** and uh that's kind of inevitable. But I also think, you know, uh we're going to do more with the tools. You you do have this acceleration of all sorts of uh great things. I mean, **education** can **dramatically improve**, **scientific discovery**, **healthcare**, **energy**, you know, all sort of the the unsolved problems can can be accelerated. Ultimately, I think it's it's **amplification of of human potential** and **capability**
**Host 1**: 和。
Original English **Host 1**: and
**Michael Dell**: 也在**拓展前沿**。而且，顺便说一句，我们还应该记住，基本上我们在这里讨论的，除了**高级半导体**在**大型数据中心**中，我们讨论的是**软件**，对吧？
Original English **Michael Dell**: extending the frontier, too. And and and and by the way, we should also remember that basically what we're talking about here beyond sort of some of the **advanced semiconductors** in the you know big **data centers**, we're talking about **software**, right?
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Michael Dell**: 对吗？就像在你的电脑上运行的**软件**。所以，你知道，如果有人说，嗯，我们不想要那个。那就像你如何阻止**软件**？我的意思是。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Right. It's like **software** that runs on your computer. So you know if somebody says well we don't we don't want that. It's like how do you stop **software** I mean
**Host 2**: 是的，你要如何阻止，你要如何阻止有人在他们家里的电脑上安装一个**开源模型**，并向它寻求**医疗建议**？你知道，**纽约**刚刚通过了一项法律，说 **AI模型**不能再提供。
Original English **Host 2**: yeah how are you going to how you going to stop someone putting an **open source model** on their computer at home and asking it for **medical advice**? You know, **New York** just passed a law saying **AI models** can no longer give
**Michael Dell**: **医疗建议**。通过了，对吗？它正在被提议。
Original English **Michael Dell**: **medical advice**. Passed, right? It's being proposed.
**Host 2**: 哦，被提议。它正在被提议。你不能提供**法律**和**健康建议**。
Original English **Host 2**: Oh, proposed. It's being proposed. You can't give **legal** and **health advice**.
**Host 1**: 我们是**反软件**的。就像。
Original English **Host 1**: We're anti-s software. It's like,
**Host 2**: 是的。嗯，我们也是**反书籍**和**反建议**的。所以，如果你要在书里查找，但你是在那里插入你的**伯尼·桑德斯**了吗？
Original English **Host 2**: yeah. Well, we're also anti books and advice. So, if you were going to look it up in a book, but were you dropping into your **Bernie Sanders** right there?
**Host 1**: 那是我的**伯尼·桑德斯**。
Original English **Host 1**: That was my **Bernie Sanders**.
### Invest America Act：财富再分配与社会契约新篇章 **Host 2**: **Michael Dell**。你通过你的**数据中心**赋能的 **1%** 中的 **1%**。为什么你对我们伟大国家的人民这样做，而你却把钱捐给**投资美国账户**里的孩子？
Original English **Host 2**: **Michael D**. **1%** of the **1%** that you're enabling with your **data centers**. Why are you doing this to the people of our great nation while you give your money to children in the **Invest America accounts**?
**Michael Dell**: 是的。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah,
**Host 2**: 这是一个很好的。
Original English **Host 2**: this is a good one you're doing.
**Michael Dell**: 是的。我们能谈谈**投资美国**吗？
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah. Can we talk about **Invest America**?
**Host 1**: 我想他可能甚至批评过那个，但是，你知道。
Original English **Host 1**: I think he might have even criticized that, but but you know,
**Host 2**: 嗯，那就是问题所在。**亿万富翁**们正在把钱给我们的孩子，他们没有征求我们的许可，然后那些孩子会买他们的父母从未要求过的东西。
Original English **Host 2**: well, that's the problem. The **billionaires** are giving our children money and they're not asking us permission and then those kids are going to buy things that their parents never asked for.
**Michael Dell**: 嗯，他们，他们，他们实际上直到 **18** 岁才能拿到钱。所以那。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Well, they they don't they don't actually get the money till they're **18** years old. So that's that's
**Host 2**: 但你有什么权利教育我们的孩子？这种**慈善事业**是什么？毫无意义。不，我是说真的。
Original English **Host 2**: But what gives you the right to give our children an education? What is this philanthropy? It makes no sense. No, I mean honestly.
**Michael Dell**: 嗯，我看到我看到我的好朋友 **Brad Gersonner** 在这里。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Well, I see I see my great friend **Brad Gersonner** here.
**Host 1**: **Brad** 在这里。
Original English **Host 1**: **Brad's** here.
**Michael Dell**: 他在那里。
Original English **Michael Dell**: There he is.
**Host 2**: **Brad**，过来参加这个小环节。坐下来一会儿。我们谈谈**美国**。我们还有 **5** 分钟。
Original English **Host 2**: **Brad**, come up for this little uh segment here. Sit sit for a second. Let's talk about **America**. We got **5** minutes left here.
**Host 1**: 所以，你知道，我听说了。
Original English **Host 1**: So, you know, I heard
**Host 2**: 所有人，第五个好朋友。给他鼓掌。
Original English **Host 2**: everybody the fifth bestie. Give him a round.
**Michael Dell**: 我不知道他会在这里。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I didn't know he's going to be here.
**Host 2**: 好的。我。
Original English **Host 2**: All right. I
**Host 1**: **Michael**，这事是怎么发生的？
Original English **Host 1**: how did this go down, **Michael**?
**Michael Dell**: 我在 **2021** 年从 **Brad** 那里听说了这个想法。
Original English **Michael Dell**: I I heard about this idea in **2021** from **Brad**
**Host 1**: 我当时想，你知道，那是一个很棒的主意。那是一个绝妙的主意。而且，你知道，我认为与前一届政府有过一些讨论，但不幸的是，他们没有做任何事情。嗯，你知道，我们在这里，你知道，一个奇迹。你知道，呃，**投资美国法案**通过了，嗯，你知道，现在我们有成千上万的公司加入进来，匹配政府的捐款，嗯，你知道，**Susan** 和我做了一个重大声明，捐赠 **250** 美元给 **2500** 万儿童，在那些中位收入为。
Original English **Host 1**: and I thought, you know, that's a that's just a great idea. That's an awesome idea. And, you know, I think there were some discussions with the prior administration, but they didn't uh do do anything about that, unfortunately. And um you know, here we are, you know, a miracle. you know, uh the the the **Invest America Act** was was passed and um you know, now we have thousands of companies that are joining in and matching the government's contribution and u you know, **Susan** and I made a big announcement uh giving **$250** to **25 million** children in uh zip codes where the median income is
**Host 2**: 我的意思是，**Michael**，让我们暂停一下。这其中有一个最伟大的。
Original English **Host 2**: I mean, **Michael**, let's just let's pause for a second This is one of the greatest
**Host 1**: 你觉得呢，**Bernie**？你同意吗？
Original English **Host 1**: What do you think, **Bernie**? Do you approve?
**Host 2**: 我会同意 **Jake All** 的观点。我只想暂停一下，因为这是人类历史上最伟大的**慈善捐赠**之一。我，人们只是有点草草带过，因为世界上有很多大数字，但我们说的是你。你个人，你和 **Susan** 坐下来，说，“我们要给一个数字。”那个数字是五、六、七十亿美元，或者这是。
Original English **Host 2**: I'm going to go with **Jake All** this. I just want to pause on this because it is one of the greatest **philanthropic gifts** in the history of humanity. And I I people have just kind of glossed over to it because there's a lot of big numbers in the world, but we're talking about you. You personally, you and **Susan** sat down and said, "We're going to give a number." And that number was **five**, **six**, **seven billion dollars** or this is
**Michael Dell**: 嗯，它是 **250** 美元给 **2500** 万 **2** 到 **10** 岁的儿童，在那些中位收入为 **150000** 美元或更低的邮政编码地区。那是 **62.5** 亿美元。
Original English **Michael Dell**: well it's it's **$250** to **25 million** children ages **2** to **10** in zip codes where the median income is **$150,000** or lession. It's **$6.25 billion**.
**Host 2**: 我的意思是。
Original English **Host 2**: I mean
**Michael Dell**: 我只想说点什么。你知道，我们生活在一个时代。
Original English **Michael Dell**: and I just want to say something. You know, we live at a time where
**Host 1**: 但他们必须注册才能认领账户。是的。
Original English **Host 1**: but they have to sign up to claim the accounts. Yes,
**Michael Dell**: 他们，他们有账户，但他们必须注册才能认领账户。你知道，我想我们现在每天有超过 **100000** 名孩子注册。
Original English **Michael Dell**: they they have accounts, but they have to sign up to claim the accounts. You know, I think we're getting **100,000** plus kids now a day signing up.
**Host 1**: 是的。
Original English **Host 1**: Yeah.
**Brad Gersonner**: 首先，谢谢邀请我上来。我的意思是，我的朋友**Michael Dell**是多么伟大的**民族英雄**和**民族资产**啊，但他低估了这一点。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: First, thanks for having me up. I mean, what what a **national hero** and **national asset** that my friend **Michael Dell** is, but he understates this
**Host 1**: 因为我为此努力了**四年**。我们已经在 **All-In Pod** 上讨论过它。我们有很多势头，但幕后，**Trump** 当选了。嗯，所以那是**四月**，我们正处于**关税**冲突之中。**4月25日**，我们意识到在 **Trump** 的前两年只会通过一部立法。那将是，你知道，这部宏伟的法案，**和解法案**。所以我打电话给**Michael**，我说，“**Michael**，我们必须走。我们只有**五天**。它已经在参议院起草了。我们有**两党支持**，但我们有一个窗口，就像我必须进入**椭圆形办公室**。我们必须进入**椭圆形办公室**。你知道，**Michael** 说，你知道，文本应该怎么说？你和我有过一次对话，你知道，呃，你知道给 **DJT** 的文本。
Original English **Host 1**: because I've been working on this for **four years**. We've been talking about it on the **All-In Pod**. We had a lot of momentum, but behind the scenes, **Trump** gets elected. Um, and so it's April that we're in the middle of the **tariff strife**. **April 25**, we realize there's only going to be one piece of legislation that gets passed during **Trump's first two years**. It'll be the, you know, this big beautiful bill, the **reconciliation bill**. And so I I call up **Michael** and I said, "**Michael**, we got to go. We've got **five days**. We have the it it's drafted in the Senate. We have **bipartisan support**, but we have a window and like we ha I have to get in the **Oval Office**. We have to get in the **Oval Office**. And you know, **Michael** said, you know, what what should the text say? And you and I had a conversation and you you know uh you know the text to **DJT**.
**Brad Gersonner**: 是的。我不是在乱说。听着，**Biden**，无论你在政治分歧的哪一边，我都会说，我曾经说过，**Trump** 会向商业领袖寻求想法，他对像**Michael Dell**这样的商业领袖深表敬意。就像无论你的政治立场如何，那就是事实。而上一届政府没有，你知道，如果它可能做了同样的事情。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: Yes. I I'm not talking out of school. Listen, **Biden**, where wherever you sit on the political divide, I will say I've said this, **Trump** seeks out ideas from **business leaders** and he has deep respect for **business leaders** like **Michael Dell**. Like you wherever your politics are, that's just the truth. And the last administration didn't and you know, if it may have done the same thing
**Michael Dell**: 而且，而且我必须说，这个**投资美国**，它不是一个红色想法或蓝色想法。它是一个红色、白色和蓝色的想法，对吗？它是。
Original English **Michael Dell**: and and this and I just have to say this, **Invest America**, it's not a red idea or a blue idea. It's a red, white, and blue idea, right? It's it's
**Brad Gersonner**: 所以在之前的谈话中，当**Michael**和我第一次谈论它时，嗯，你知道，这是正确的事情，对吗？就像我们必须重新连接 **70%** 感到被排除在外和被抛弃的人与**美国梦**，对吗？但这不符合我们的自身利益，这关乎**捍卫所有权社会**和**资本主义**，它在 **250** 年里创造了**世界历史上最伟大的实验**，但现在它处于危险之中。**40** 岁以下的人中，不到一半的人对**资本主义**持正面看法。所以当我第一次和你谈论它时，**Michael** 理解了它的两面性。这是正确的事情，也是对国家正确的事情。呃，所以无论如何，**Michael Dell**，伟大的**美国人**。我只有一个，只是一个建议，给**投资美国Trump账户**起个名字。你觉得怎么样？
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: so into the prior conversation when **Michael** and I first talked about it um you know it was this is the right thing to do right like we have to reconnect the **70%** of people who feel left out and left behind to the **American dream** right but this isn't our self-interest this is about defending the **ownership society** and **capitalism** that for **250** years created the **greatest experiment in the history of the world** but that's at at risk less than half of people under the age of **40** have a favorable view of **capitalism**. So when I talked to you about it the first time, **Michael** understood both sides of it. It's the right thing to do and it's the right thing for the country. And uh so at any rate, **Michael Dell**, tremendous **American** I have one just one one punch up the name **invest America Trump accounts**. What do you think?
**Host 2**: 你是在其他**慈善事业**的背景下考虑这个的吗？我的意思是，你如何将这个放在你思考回馈社会的范围中？
Original English **Host 2**: Were were you considering this in the context of other **philanthropy**? I mean, how do you how do you kind of put this together in the spectrum of how you think about giving back?
**Michael Dell**: 是的，好问题。所以，你知道，我们有一个基金会，非常专注于**城市贫困儿童**。这基本上是基金会的核心焦点，尽管呃，**德州中部**的人会知道我们在当地社区也做一些其他事情。嗯，你知道，当我听到这个想法时，我的一个想法是，“哇，这就像一个直接给予我们目标人群的平台，对吧？”你知道，我们实际上考虑过只在**德州**做。嗯，你知道，公司的一切进展顺利。所以，你知道，我们认为我们只会做得更大。而且**Brad**，会发生什么，如果，你知道，再出现 **10** 个**Michael Dell**，而且有几十个。
Original English **Michael Dell**: Yeah, great question. So, so you know, we have a foundation that's very focused on **children in urban poverty**. That's basically the central focus of the foundation, although folks in uh **central Texas** would know that we do a few other things here in our local community. Um, and you know, when I heard about this idea, one of my thoughts was, "Wow, this is like a platform for directly giving to the people that we're targeting, right?" And, you know, we actually thought about doing it just in **Texas** first. And, um, you know, things have gone pretty well with the company and all that. So, you know, we thought we just go bigger. And and what happens, **Brad**, if you know **10** more **Michael Dells** show up and and there are dozens of
**Host 1**: **Michael Dell** 并没有那么多，老实说。但是。
Original English **Host 1**: That's not a lot of **Michael Dells**, let's be honest. But
**Michael Dell**: 有很多人可以做出同等规模甚至更大的捐赠。嗯，有很多人，你知道，人多力量大。有一千人可以做出重大捐赠。如果这真的成为一场运动怎么办？
Original English **Michael Dell**: there there's a number of folks who could make an equal size or even greater gift. Um there are people who, you know, many hands makes for light work. There are a thousand people who can make a gift of significance. What if this actually becomes a movement and we
**Brad Gersonner**: 我认为，我认为它实际上正在成为一场运动，而不是一个瞬间，而且，你知道，我们已经排队了很多。**Brad**，你为什么不。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: I think I think it actually is becoming a movement instead of a moment and and and we've you know we've got a lot of that queued up. **Brad**, why don't you
**Host 1**: 等等，你给任何人打过电话吗？**Michael**，你打过电话吗？
Original English **Host 1**: Wait, have you called anybody? **Michael**, have you did you call?
**Brad Gersonner**: **Michael** 和我共同主持**投资美国捐赠委员会**，我们都是雄心勃勃的人。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: **Michael** and I chair the **Invest America Giving Committee** and we're ambitious guys.
**Host 2**: 你在敲门。
Original English **Host 2**: You're knocking on doors.
**Brad Gersonner**: 我们进行了一些对话。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: We we've had a few conversations.
**Host 1**: 你在发短信给别人。
Original English **Host 1**: You're texting people.
**Brad Gersonner**: 是的。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: Yeah.
**Brad Gersonner**: 所以，所以，所以刚才有一个问题。首先，理解并传播这个信息非常重要。每个 **18** 岁以下的儿童，每个 **18** 岁以下的儿童都有资格认领他们的账户。第一。第二，你听过这样的话，哦，**25** 到 **28** 年之间出生的孩子。不，这是永远的。这项立法永远创建了这个账户。每个从 **2027年1月1日** 开始出生的**美国儿童**都将自动获得一个账户，出生时就会绑定到他们的**社会安全卡**上。**1000** 美元必须每**四年**重新授权一次。好的？但账户不会。所以每个孩子，这是**社会保障2.0**。这是**美国社会契约**在 **50** 年来最大的变化。每年将有 **370** 万儿童获得一个可以**复利**的账户。从出生开始的 **401k**。是的，我们将有很多公告，但不仅仅是**亿万富翁**。将会有公司在他们的 **IPO** 中捐赠股票到这些账户。将会有富人。将会有州政府。将会有母亲和父亲。将会有公司。估计在 **15** 年内，我们可以将 **5** 万亿美元转移到那些原本一无所有的家庭的口袋里。**5** 万亿美元，对吧？所以对我来说，**Michael** 展现的领导力不仅在于帮助我促成了最终通过这项法律的会议。那些时刻要么发生，要么不发生。如果它们不发生，就没有法律。这不会改变孩子的生活。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: And so so so just there was a question earlier. First, it's really important to understand and for you guys to spread the word. Every child under the age of **18**, every child under the age of **18** is eligible to claim their account. Number one. Number two, you've heard this like, oh, kids born between **25** and **28**. No, this is forever more. The legislation creates this account forever more. Every child born in **America** starting **January 1st, 2027** will automatically get an will get a **Trump account** right at birth stapled to their **social security card**. The **$1,000** has to be reauthorized every **four years**. Okay? But the accounts don't. So every kid, this is **social security 2.0**. This is the biggest change to the **social contract** in **America** in in **50** years. **3.7 million** kids a year will get an account that can compound. a **401k** from birth. And yes, we're going to have a lot of announcements, but it's not just **billionaires**. It's going to be companies that are donating stock on their **IPOs** into these accounts. It's going to be wealthy people. It's going to be states. It's going to be moms and dads. It's going to be corporations. And the estimate is over **15** years, we can move **$5 trillion** into the pockets of families that would have otherwise had zero. **$5 trillion**, right? And so to me, the leadership that **Michael** showed not only in helping me get the meeting that ultimately got this passed into law. And it does take people like those moments either happen or they don't happen. And if they don't happen, there's no law. And this doesn't change kids lives.
**Host 2**: 顺便说一句，关于这个有两点。
Original English **Host 2**: By the way, two things on this.
**Host 1**: 如果这 **5** 万亿美元通过**政府项目**转移，它就会被焚化。
Original English **Host 1**: If this **$5 trillion** moved through **government programs**, it would get incinerated.
**Brad Gersonner**: 没错。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: Exactly.
**Host 1**: 这就是我们看到的。有数百万个裙带结构会把它夺走并摧毁它。所以直接把它给到账户里是情况。第二件事是，你说的很有道理，伙计们，我，我，我来牵头，但我们能用这种**确定福利**或**确定缴费**来取代这个国家的**社会保障**吗？最终每个人都有一个**Trump账户**，或者随便你怎么称呼它，我们就不必有这个我们称之为**社会**的虚假**庞氏骗局**了，我们能做到吗？嗯，他们，他们有一个**确定福利计划**，但我是说，每个人都有一个账户，他们都拥有他们未来的一部分。每次你获得**工资税减免**时，而不是它被销毁、摧毁和蒸发，那笔钱实际上会进入一个账户，你购买一家公司的一部分，也许你可以直接管理它。
Original English **Host 1**: That's what we see happen. there's just a million crony structures that take it away and destroy it. So to give it directly into the accounts is the circumstance. The second thing is it makes a lot of sense that you guys can I I'll I'll be the lead but can we replace **social security** in this country with a **defined benefit** or **defined contribution** like this and eventually everyone has a **Trump account** or whatever you call it and we don't have to have this fake **Ponzi scheme** that we call **social** do we can do it. Well, they they they have a **defined benefit program**, but I'm saying like everyone has an account and they all own a piece of their future. And every time you get a **payroll to tax deduction**, instead of it getting inviscerated and destroyed and vaporized, that money actually goes into an account and you buy a piece of a company and maybe you can direct it.
**Host 2**: **Friedberg** 正在。
Original English **Host 2**: **Freeberg's** getting
**Host 1**: 在今年的**7月4日**。
Original English **Host 1**: on **July 4th** of this year.
**Brad Gersonner**: 你让我兴奋起来了。所以对于所有，有 **450** 万孩子已经认领了他们的账户，按照我们现在的轨迹，每天将有近 **15** 万美元，到**7月4日**，我们国家成立 **250** 周年时，将有 **1000** 万。所有这些孩子的账户，家长和孩子在**7月4日**那天会在他们的手机上看到一个很像 **Robinhood** 应用的应用程序，它会显示他们拥有的东西。它会说你收到了你的 **1000** 美元或你的 **250** 美元。你，它会显示一点 **Nvidia**，一点 **Walmart**，一点 **Dell**。我们将 **S&P 500** 分解成组成部分，这样他们就可以对成为**美国**的**所有者**并分享其增长而感到兴奋。当妈妈和爸爸双击并用 **Apple Pay** 支付 **5-10** 美元到账户时，对吧？当他们把他们的**二维码**发送给生日的朋友，现在他们的朋友都往账户里加钱，或者在**圣诞节**或**成人礼**时，他们往账户里加钱。当公司往账户里加钱时，所有这些，他们看到它在增长，它释放了**人类潜能**。这不仅仅是钱。而是我参与了游戏。我有一个机会。对此，我想**David**的观点是，**社会保障**最大的罪过。我们非常清楚，**社会保障**是一个神圣的承诺。我们，我们拒绝了，很多人试图让我们承担更广泛的斗争。我们没有这样做，因为我们知道这会扼杀这个项目。但但让我们明确这一点。我们的政府要求我们所有人将我们收入的 **10%** 存入**社会保障**，对吧？那是**工业革命**中**社会契约**的演变，它使国家团结在一起。唯一的问题是它进入了一个**黑洞**。没有人看到它。没有人知道那里有什么。但那是你的储蓄。现在想象一下，如果同样的钱被要求，你知道，政府拿走了，但它在一个以你的名字命名的账户里。你可以看到它增长。你清楚地知道那里有什么。你可以感到兴奋，然后说，“嘿，我要再加一点钱进去，对吧？”而且你有一点选择。对我来说，那是，呃，那是有可能性的。我想我们最终会达到那里。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: You're getting me wound up. So for all the there are **4.5 million** kids who've claimed their account almost **$150,000** a day will have on the trajectory we're on **10 million** by **July 4th** our **250th** anniversary of the country. Every one of those kids accounts the parents and the kids on **July 4th** they'll see an app on their phone that looks a lot like a **Robinhood app** that'll see them owning. It'll say you've received your **$1,000** or your **$250**. you're and it will show a little bit of **Nvidia**, a little bit of **Walmart**, a little bit of **Dell**. We decompose the **S&P 500** which they own into the constituent parts so they can get excited about being an **owner in the upside of America**. And when moms and dads doubleclick and **Apple pay** **5-10** bucks into the account, right? When they send their **QR codes** to their friends on their birthday and now their friends all add to the account or on **Christmas** or **bar mitzvah** and they add to the accounts. When companies add to the accounts, all of this, they see it growing and it unlocks the **human potential**. It's not just the money. It's that I'm in the game. I have a shot. Which to **David's** point, I think the biggest crime of **social security**. And we made very clear, **social security** is a sacred promise. We we refused and many people tried to get us to to to take on the broader struggle. And we didn't do it because we knew it it would kill this program. But but let's be clear about this. Our government requires all of us to give **10%** of what we earn into **social security**, right? It was the **social contract evolution** in the **industrial revolution** that kept kept the country together. The only problem is it goes into a **black hole**. Nobody sees it. Nobody knows what's there. But it is your savings. Now imagine if that same money was required to, you know, government took it away, but it was in an account with your name on it. You could see it grow. you knew exactly what was there. You could get excited and say, "Hey, I'm going to add a little bit more to that, right?" And and and you had a little bit of choice. That to me is uh is the possibility. And I think we will end up there some
**Host 1**: 和**Brad**，谢谢你。我只是想说，你知道，**Brad**也采纳了他的家乡**印第安纳州**。我们有 **Ray** 和 **Barbara Dalio** 采纳了他们的家乡**康涅狄格州**。还有很多很多。
Original English **Host 1**: and and and **Brad**, thank you for just going to say, you know, **Brad Brad** also adopted his home state of **Indiana**. We have **Ray** and **Barbara Dalio** adopted their home state of **Connecticut**. and many many more to come.
**Brad Gersonner**: 而且，而且，而且你看，任何人都可以非常容易地在你的社区里增加 **100** 个孩子，**领养一个邮政编码**，**领养一个学区**，**领养一个城镇**。
Original English **Brad Gersonner**: And and and look, it's going to be super easy for anybody to add a **100** kids in your neighborhood, **adopt a zip code**, **adopt a school district**, **adopt a town**.
**Host 2**: 这会很棒。为我们这个时代最伟大的企业家之一和一项不可思议的承诺鼓掌。我全力以赴。我全力以赴。
Original English **Host 2**: It's going to be amazing. Give it up for one of the great **entrepreneurs** of our time and an incredible pledge. I'm going all in. I'm going all in.