--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-05-14' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPbj0ExFUCM speaker: TVO Today tags: - eurovision-song-contest - canadian-culture - kids-tv - cultural-history - geopolitics title: 加拿大能否加入欧洲歌唱大赛？多伦多儿童电视黄金时代的文化价值 summary: 本期节目探讨加拿大参与欧洲歌唱大赛的战略意义与文化影响，以及多伦多儿童电视黄金时代的辉煌历程，分析其对人才培养、艺术价值及加拿大流行文化传承的重要性。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: culture-history area: society-thinking project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - CBC Radio-Canada - European Broadcasting Union - TVO products_models: [] media_books: - 'ImagiNation: The Golden Age of Toronto Kids TV' status: evergreen --- ### 加拿大与欧洲歌唱大赛：战略考量与文化连接 **主持人**: 本周，**欧洲歌唱大赛**迎来了它的 70 周年。自 1956 年首届比赛以来，一切都发生了巨大的变化。当年，只有七个国家参赛；如今，已有 35 支队伍同台竞技。当然，表演在形式和声音上都有所不同。
Original English **Host**: This week, **Eurovision Song Contest** is turning 70. A lot's changed since the first competition in 1956. Back then, seven countries competed for glory. Now 35 are going head to head. And of course, the performances look and sound a little different.
**主持人**: 随着**加拿大**努力与**欧洲**建立更紧密的联系，我们有一天也能登上那个舞台吗？我们将探讨参加**欧洲歌唱大赛**的利弊，以及这场“流行音乐的奥林匹克”与**地缘政治**有何关联。
Original English **Host**: As **Canada** tries to build closer ties with **Europe**, could we be on that stage someday? We look at the pros and cons of competing in **Eurovision** and what the **Olympics of pop music** has to do with **geopolitics**.
**主持人**: 那么，一个可怕的漂浮头、一个会说话的菠萝和一个色彩鲜艳的大个子有什么共同点？我们采访了一位关于**多伦多儿童电视黄金时代**新书的作者。欢迎收听“The Rundown”。在 2025 年的预算中，联邦政府曾表示，它正“与**CBC Radio-Canada**合作，探索**加拿大**参加**欧洲歌唱大赛**的可能性”。那么这会如何运作，是否值得一试？来自国家首都的 Nomi Claire Lazar，渥太华大学公共与国际事务学教授，以及来自多伦多的 Karen Fricker，布罗克大学戏剧艺术兼职教授。很高兴有你们二位参加。Naomi，我们先从你开始。总理马克·卡尼曾将加拿大描述为“最欧洲化的非欧洲国家”。那么，加入**欧洲歌唱大赛**是加拿大的战略举措，还是仅仅一个有趣的构想？
Original English **Host**: Then what do a scary floating head, a talking pineapple and this big colourful guy have in common? We talked to the author of a new book about the Golden Age of Kids TV in Toronto. Welcome to "The Rundown". In the 2025 budget, the federal government said it was, quote, working with **CBC Radio-Canada** to explore **Canada**'s participation in **Eurovision**. So how would that work, and is it a shot worth taking? From the nation's capital? Nomi Claire Lazar, a professor of public and international affairs at the University of Ottawa and from Toronto. Karen Fricker, an adjunct professor of dramatic arts at Brock University. Great to have you both on the line. Naomi, let's start with you. Prime Minister Mark Carney has described **Canada** as the most European of non-European countries. So is joining **Eurovision** actually a strategic move for **Canada**, or is this just a fun idea?
**Nomi Claire Lazar**: 我认为这对加拿大来说是一个非常有战略意义的举动，至少有三个原因。首先，正如我们所知，加拿大与北美的关系一直非常紧张，那里是我们历史上最紧密的贸易伙伴和国防伙伴。随着加拿大不得不寻求世界其他地方的此类伙伴关系，我们在世界许多地方都找到了这些伙伴。但欧洲是重要的贸易伙伴、潜在的国防伙伴。更重要的是——而这正是 **Eurovision** 发挥作用的地方——它是我们共同价值观的强大伙伴。因此，**欧洲联盟**，就像加拿大一样，是由众多多元化的政治实体组成的联邦。就像加拿大一样，欧洲也以**法治**为中心，以**宪政民主**为中心，而加拿大正试图在世界舞台上展现自己是一个仍然重视这些价值观的国家。因此，转向欧洲，加入**欧洲歌唱大赛**在象征意义上确实起到了信号作用，表明我们就像欧洲一样，是一个多元文化群体的联邦，并且我们以**法治**和**宪政民主**为中心。进行这种象征性政治，将有助于巩固加拿大与欧洲在贸易和国防方面的关系。
Original English **Nomi Claire Lazar**: I think it's a very strategic move for **Canada** for at least three reasons. So first of all, as we're all aware, there is quite a lot of tension in with respect to **Canada**'s relationship with North America, which has historically been very sort of tightest trade partners, our tightest defence partners. And as **Canada** is having to look elsewhere in the world for those kinds of partnerships, we do find those partners in many places across the world. But **Europe** is a very strong partner, potential partner for trade, a strong potential partner for defence. But also and this is where **Eurovision** comes in, a strong partner for our shared values. So the **European Union**, like **Canada**, is a federation of very multicultural and diverse states, political bodies. And so just and just like **Canada**, we **Europe** centres the **rule of law**. It centres **constitutional democracy** and **Canada** is trying to put itself forward on the world stage as a state that still values those things. So the pivot toward **Europe**, that joining **Eurovision** symbolically communicates does serve that role of signalling that we're like **Europe**, a federation of very multicultural groups, and like **Europe**, that we centre the **rule of law** and **constitutional democracy** and sending that or conducting that sort of symbolic politics will help to solidify **Canada**'s relationship with **Europe** in terms of trade and defence.
**Karen Fricker**: Karen，我得承认我刚接触这个。我记得 2018 年第一次参加 EurovisionParty。那是以色列歌手 Netta 获胜的时候。我在一个派对上，大家要带不同国家代表的食物。我完全不知道我在看什么，我想更好地理解一下：加拿大人看 Eurovision 吗？
Original English **Karen Fricker**: Karen, I'm going to admit I'm late to the game. I remember going to my first **Eurovision** party in 2018. This is when Israel singer Israeli singer Netta had won. I was at a party. People had to bring food from different countries that were being represented. I had no idea what I was watching, and I want to have a better understanding of do Canadians watch Eurovision?
**Karen Fricker**: 在我的经验里，加拿大人在他们与某个欧洲国家有联系时会看。就像我在布罗克的学生。我刚到布罗克的时候，一个学生说，“我听说你研究 Eurovision”。“我的族人是马其顿人。我们在马其顿电视上看，通过天花板上的碟片……”但我觉得它已经……现在可以在 YouTube 上观看了，它在年轻人的流行文化中变得更酷了。但我想，如果加拿大考虑加入，让它在国家广播公司播出，这样公众就能更广泛地认识这个比赛，而不只是那些侨民和青年文化市场，这将是非常重要的一步。
Original English **Karen Fricker**: I think in my experience, Canadians watch if they have a connection to a European country like my students at Brock. What. When I first arrived at Brock, one of my students said, I understand you study Eurovision. My. My people are Macedonian. We watch on Macedonian TV off the the disk on our ceiling and. But I think it's become. Now that it's available, you can watch it on YouTube. It's become a little bit cooler within pop culture for young people to watch Eurovision. But I think if Canada is thinking of joining, getting it shown on the national broadcaster so that there can be a much wider recognition of the contest beyond the kind of diasporic and youth culture, markets would be a very important move.
**主持人**: Karen，你提到了公共广播公司，能给我们解释一下加入 Eurovision 的规则吗？因为这不一定只关乎才艺。你知道，你是否拥有共同的价值观，实际上与公共广播公司有关。
Original English **Host**: You mentioned public broadcasters, Karen, help us understand what are the rules for joining Eurovision, because it isn't necessarily about talent. You know, whether you you share the same values actually has to do with the public broadcasters.
**Karen Fricker**: 是的，它确实如此。这看起来像一场国家间的比赛，因为参赛者代表他们的国家演唱，比如你为法国或英国投票。但实际上，这是一场公共广播公司之间的比赛。它由**欧洲广播联盟 (EBU)** 组织。所以，你必须是 EBU 的正式会员作为广播公司才能派出参赛者，但不一定如此，因为澳大利亚在过去十年里一直在参赛，他们是获得特别许可的联合会员。而这可能就是加拿大能够进入的方式，如果我们获得特别许可。但这里存在一种张力：是的，这是一场国家间的比赛，但实际上，它确实是关于广播政治的，并且受广播公司之间关系的影响。
Original English **Karen Fricker**: Yeah it is. Well, it seems like a contest of nations because the contestants sing for their country like you vote for France or you vote for the UK. But it's actually a contest of public broadcasters. It is Organised by the **European Broadcasting Union**. And so you need to be a full member of the **EBU** as a broadcaster in order to field an entry, but not necessarily because Australia has been competing for the past ten years and they are an associate member who are getting a special permission. And this could be the way that Canada could enter, is if we got the special permission. But there's that tension there between, yes, it's a contest of nations, but in fact, it is really about broadcast politics and and dictated by the relationships between broadcasters.
**主持人**: Naomi，说到这里，加拿大能从中获得什么？
Original English **Host**: Naomi, with that being said, what's in it for Canada?
**Nomi Claire Lazar**: 加拿大是一个相当复杂的地方。我认为我们都可以同意。有些事情我们相处得很好，有些问题上，国家的不同地区确实会产生分歧。我们从研究中得知，建立共同目标感在拥有共同的感知、共同的语言、共同的历史感时会进展得更好。这些正是加拿大所面临的挑战。所以，我们必须寻找其他方式来建立这种集体目标感。当人们一起做事时，这有助于他们感觉像一个整体。所以，就像你的家庭有某些传统或在感恩节做某些事情一样，一起做这些事情确实有助于建立那种共同目标感。所以，当我们一起解决问题、一起参与政治、对我们的国家医疗保健有相同的经历，甚至一起收看公共媒体时，这些都是建国的重要方式。现在，一起参与 **Eurovision** 的好处是，尽管 **Eurovision** 当然有其特殊的政治性，但它不是明确的政治性。所以，它让我们作为一个国家，可以一起做一些事情，从而搁置那些将我们分开的因素。更重要的是，它非常有趣。而且我们知道，当人们玩得开心、有共同的经历，无论是开心的还是令人恐惧的——就像我们看到的，当加拿大因为来自美国的贸易威胁而团结起来时——人们就会走到一起。所以，让 **Eurovision** 成为加拿大人共同体验的这样一个活动，它非常有趣，而且可以将政治放在一边，这非常有意义。还有一个原因，很快地说一下，为什么 **Eurovision** 对此如此之好。就像感恩节一样，也许如果没有这个节日，你不会见到你的家人或某些家庭成员。现在，就是你见到他们的时候了。**Eurovision** 每年都会举办，所以它会安排在你的日程中，届时我们将一起坐下来，一起参加这个非常有趣的派对。它也会自动化我们集体努力的演练。所以，我认为这是加拿大最大的收获。除了我之前谈到的那种信号作用，即成为**欧洲**国家大家庭的一员。
Original English **Nomi Claire Lazar**: So Canada is a pretty complicated family. I think we could all agree. There are certain things that we where we get along very well, certain other issues where different parts of the country do tend to disagree. And we know from research that building a sense of common purpose tends to go better when we have a shared sense, shared language, shared sense of history. And these are the sorts of things where Canada does struggle. So we do have to look for other ways of kind of building that sense of communal purpose. And it helps when and what we know from the research in terms of, of what works there is that when people do things together, it helps them feel like a unit together. So just like your family, you know, has certain traditions or does certain things on Thanksgiving, etc. doing those things together does help, you know, build that, that sense of common purpose. So when we solve problems together, when we engage in politics together, when we have the same experiences with our, say, national health care or even, you know, watching public media, those are all nation building types of things. Now, the beauty of doing Eurovision together is that while of course, Eurovision is political in in its own special ways, it's not explicitly political. So it gives us something to do together as a nation that that sort of sets aside the things that pull us apart. And what's more than that, it's just so much fun. And we know that people come together most when they're having fun, when they're having common experiences other that are fun or that make them afraid as, as we saw, you know, when Canada pulled together with the threats, the trade threats from the United States. So having Eurovision be this event that Canadians experience together, which is just so much fun and sort of puts the politics aside, makes good sense. And there's one more reason, just quite quickly, why Eurovision is so great for this. And that's that. Just like with Thanksgiving, where maybe you wouldn't see the your family or certain members of your family if it wasn't on the calendar, that now is the time that you see them. Eurovision happens every year, so it sort of schedules right into your year that at this time, we're all going to sit down and have this really fun party together. And it sort of automates the rehearsal of our kind of collective endeavours. So I think that's the biggest thing that's in it for Canada. In addition to that sort of signalling I talked about before, of being part of this sort of community of nations in **Europe**.
**主持人**: 好的，Naomi，你提到了背后的政治因素。所以我们来谈谈这个。这一切的对话背景都是可负担性危机、贸易战，就像我们提到的，与南方的邻居。加拿大人正在应对很多事情。那么联邦政府和 CBC 应该如何向其他加拿大人推销 Eurovision 的想法呢？
Original English **Host**: All right, Noemi, you had mentioned the politics behind it. So let's talk a little bit about it. All of this, this conversation is happening on the backdrop of an affordability crisis, a trade war, as we mentioned, to our neighbours to the south. There's a lot going on that Canadians are dealing with. So what does the federal government and CBC have to do to sort of sell the idea of Eurovision to fellow Canadians?
**Nomi Claire Lazar**: 嗯，你问这个问题很有意思，因为我一直在和我的学生谈论这件事。你们有多少人看过 Eurovision？如果能看，你们会看吗？我认为确实需要做一些工作，来帮助加拿大人了解这是什么，为什么它很有趣，以及如何将其作为一种传统来追赶。所以，我的学生中那些来自 Eurovision 国家的人，你知道，现有的 Eurovision 国家，他们都有关于他们的学校班级会做什么，或者他们的朋友会做什么等等的故事。而这些事情是经过多年积累的。所以我们确实需要迎头赶上。所以，我……我将向 Karen 请教，关于……需要什么样的沟通策略才能……才能……把这个信息传达出去，说明它多么有趣，也许……看看其他国家（比如澳大利亚）也做过什么来引起兴趣，因为我认为这确实需要一些努力。
Original English **Nomi Claire Lazar**: Well, it's interesting that you asked that, because I've been talking to my students about that. So how many of you have seen Eurovision? Would you watch it if it was available? And I do think that there would be some work just to help Canadians know what this is, why it's fun, and also to sort of catch up with it as a tradition. So those of my students who come from Eurovision countries, you know, existing Eurovision countries, all of them have stories to tell about how you know, what, what their school class would do or what their friends would do, etc. And those things build over the course of years. So we'd really be playing catch up there. So I, you know, I would defer to Karen on how, you know, what kind of communication strategy might be necessary to, to, to, to get the message out there that this is just so much fun and maybe what, you know, look to what other countries have done as well, like Australia to kind of get that interest going, because I do think it would take some effort.
**Karen Fricker**: 是的。谢谢。我同意，这是一场漫长的博弈。如果加拿大真的想这样做，我认为他们需要从参加开始。我从本周的《加拿大事务》的报道中得知，CBC 有三名代表目前正在维也纳观察比赛。这是个不错的开始。我们应该开始播放它。我们应该开始加入我们自己的加拿大评论，因为所有国家广播公司都可以用本国语言进行评论，并加入国家特有的参照。所以，我们需要加拿大人来向 CBC 观众解释这场比赛。而 CBC 需要弄清楚如何做到这一点。我们有哪些选项来决定谁将代表我们？我们应该有一个全国性的歌曲比赛吗？就像有人建议的那样来选择参赛者？我们想要纽芬兰的音乐吗？我们想要魁北克的音乐吗？我们想要原住民音乐吗？但还有一个意识问题，正如 Naomi 你所说的那样，就是要确保人们知道这是什么，因为这种投入首先需要从提高认识开始。
Original English **Karen Fricker**: Yeah. Thank you. I agree it's a long game. And if Canada really wants to do this, I would say they need to start by attending. And I understand through reporting in Canadian affairs that came out this week, that there are three representatives of the CBC in Vienna right now observing the contest. Good start. We should start broadcasting it. We should start adding our own Canadian commentary, because all of the national broadcasters get to have commentary in their national language with national references. So we would need Canadian voices explaining the contest to CBC viewers. And the CBC would need to figure out how you do this. How do you what are our options for deciding who's going to represent us? Should we have a national song contest? As has been mooted to choose an entry? Do we want Newfoundland music? Do we want Quebec music? Do we want indigenous music? And. But there's an awareness question, which is exactly what you're talking about, Naomi, about just making sure that people know what it is, because that investment needs to come first with awareness.
**Nomi Claire Lazar**: 我只想补充一点，对我们有利的，而且有利于 **Eurovision** 成为加拿大人热衷的事情是，它的形式相当熟悉。所以，我们知道，你知道，像《The Voice》或《Canada's Next》这样的节目，我记不清它们的全称了，你知道，这种表演者之间的比赛形式，加拿大人都很熟悉，加拿大人也很喜欢。我知道我的父母很喜欢看，而他们，你知道，我本以为他们不会对 **Eurovision** 或其他节目产生兴趣。所以，这种形式我们知道它很有效。所以，这可能是 CBC 可以开始的地方，用来向加拿大人解释，比如，哦，这个有点像那个，但这是整个国家。所以，我认为有一个……有一个观众群。我认为对这种电视节目形式有熟悉度和兴趣。
Original English **Nomi Claire Lazar**: I would just add that one thing that's working in, in our, our favour and, you know, in, in favour of Eurovision being something that that Canadians caught into is that the format is quite familiar. So we know that, you know, all these, these, you know, shows like The Voice or Canada's next, you know, I can't remember what they're all, you know, the kind of format of this contest between performers is something that Canadians are familiar with, is something that Canadians really enjoy. I know my parents get really into it and they're, you know, otherwise not people I would have assumed would sort of caught into Eurovision or whatever. So there's something about the format that we know works. So that might be a place that the CBC might start in terms of explaining to Canadians like, oh, this is sort of like that, except that it's the whole country. So I do think there's a there is an audience. I do think there is a familiarity with an interest in this format of television.
**Karen Fricker**: Karen，今年的 Eurovision 笼罩在相当大的争议之中。五个国家正在抵制比赛，因为以色列的参与，他们提到了持续的**以色列-哈马斯战争**，导致数千名巴勒斯坦平民丧生。所以，我质疑时机是否合适，很多人也在质疑：加拿大此时加入是否太晚了？
Original English **Karen Fricker**: Karen, this year's Eurovision is steeped in quite a bit of controversy. Five countries are boycotting the competition due to Israel's participation, citing the ongoing Israel-Hamas war, which thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed. So I am questioning the timing here, and a lot of people are is Canada's interest in joining coming at the wrong time?
**Karen Fricker**: 我明确回答是。这对比赛来说是一个非常困难的时期。组织者，**欧洲广播联盟**，已经承认这是比赛历史上最困难的时期，这种抵制——多个广播公司表示我们不参赛——以前从未发生过，而且……现在那里气氛相当紧张。而且观众们——观众们对比赛非常热情，有很多心碎的故事，因为这场比赛对许多人来说代表着欧洲的统一和乐趣。我完全同意 Naomi 的观点。在良性竞争的精神中度过愉快的时光，比赛背后的矛盾——一方面，组织者一直说它不是政治性的，但它显然是深刻的政治性的，因为是国家之间的竞争。所有这些都已经影响到了比赛，并带来了很多困难。人们可能会想，**加拿大**加入的讨论，是否是**欧洲广播联盟**为了制造一个好消息的战略之举。看，我们有一个闪亮的新参赛者，我明白，但我认为我们需要认真考虑我们可能会陷入什么境地。
Original English **Karen Fricker**: That is a definitive yes from me. It is a very difficult time for the contest. The organisers, the **European Broadcasting Union**, have acknowledged that this is the hardest time in the contest history, this kind of a boycott where multiple broadcasters have said we're not competing. It's never happened before and it is. It is pretty toxic over there right now and it's the fan base. The spectatorship are so passionate about the contest, and there are a lot of hearts that are breaking about how it is that this contest that represents, for so many people europeanness unity fun. I completely agree with Naomi's point. Having a great time in the spirit of benign competition, the paradoxes behind the contest that on the one hand, it's always been said by the organisers that it's not political, but it's obviously profoundly political because it is nations competing against nations. All of that has caught up with the contest, and it's making for a lot of difficulty. One might wonder if the fact that there is discussion of Canada joining might be strategic on the part of the of the European Broadcasting Union to have a good news story. Look, we have a shiny new entry, I get it, but I think that there needs to be some thought about what we might be getting ourselves into here.
**主持人**: 好的，我们将拭目以待。Naomi，Karen，非常感谢你们。非常感谢。
Original English **Host**: All right. Well, we will have to look and see and see what happens. We're going to leave it there. Naomi. Karen, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it.
**Nomi Claire Lazar**: 谢谢。感谢邀请。
Original English **Nomi Claire Lazar**: Thank you. Thanks for having us.
### 多伦多儿童电视的黄金时代：艺术、人才与文化传承 **主持人**: 《穿衣先生》。（*Mr. Dressup*） 许多**Degrassi** 的青少年，当然还有 **TVO**，今天的**波点门**（*Polka Dot Door*），**今日特辑**（*Today's Special*）以及更多在**多伦多**制作的儿童节目，塑造了安大略乃至更广阔地区的几代人。Rundown 制片人 Colin Ellis 采访了文化历史学家 Ed Conroy，讨论他的新书**《ImagiNation: The Golden Age of Toronto Kids TV》**，以及为何欣赏这些节目不仅仅关乎怀旧，更关乎其深远意义。
Original English **Host**: Mr. Dress up. So many Degrassi teens and of course, TVO, today's own polka dot door, today's special and more kids programs made in Toronto raised generations in Ontario and beyond. Rundown producer Colin Ellis sat down with cultural historian Ed Conroy to talk about his new book, ImagiNation The Golden Age of Toronto Kids TV, and why appreciating these shows is about nostalgia, but also so much more.
**Ed Conroy**: Ed Conroy，欢迎来到 The Rundown。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Ed Conroy. Welcome to The Rundown.
**Colin Ellis**: 为什么写一本关于**多伦多儿童电视**的书很重要？
Original English **Colin Ellis**: Why was it important to write a book about Toronto kids TV.
**Ed Conroy**: **多伦多儿童电视**？我是说，它是**好莱坞**。**多伦多**在儿童电视领域，确实是**好莱坞**，差不多有四五十年的历史了。让我感到惊讶的是，这方面的信息如此匮乏。有一些零散的资料，你知道，关于某些节目，比如有一部关于《穿衣先生》的优秀电影，但我认为将所有内容放在不同网络的背景下进行梳理，并试图理解为什么事情会是这样，这非常重要。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Toronto kids TV? I mean, it's the Hollywood. Toronto is the Hollywood for children's television, really for 4 or 5 decades. And it was really amazing to me that there was this lack of information. There was the odd thing, you know, about certain shows, like there's a great film about Mr. Dressup, but I thought it was really important to put it all in context across all the different networks and try to understand maybe why things were the way they were.
**Colin Ellis**: 你提到了“好莱坞”这个词，但它不像**好莱坞**那样受到尊重，对吧？
Original English **Colin Ellis**: You mentioned the word Hollywood, but it's not given the same respect as Hollywood, is it?
**Ed Conroy**: 完全不是。我是说，电视本身作为一种媒介，一直以来都受到极大的不尊重，也许是因为它转瞬即逝，而且内容如此之多。没有人真正认为它是一种艺术。而儿童电视更是受到不尊重，因为它被视为只是用来“让孩子们安静下来”的某种东西。我想，随着时间的推移，我们作为一个社会已经意识到，孩子们过去在电视上看到的东西，现在当然是通过平板电脑和手机，是极其重要的。所以，努力理解哪些是好的，哪些是坏的，是我们都应该努力去理解的。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Not at all. I mean, it's it's actually television as a medium is always has been very disrespected, perhaps because it was ephemeral and there was so much of it. Nobody really thought much about it being an art. And children's television was even more disrespected because it was seen as just something that you put on to, to sort of quiet the kids. And I think as time has gone on, we've realised as a society that what children see in the old days on television, obviously now with with tablets and phones is incredibly important. So sort of understanding the stuff that was good versus the stuff that was bad is, is something we should all strive to, to understand.
**主持人**: Benjamin，电视被误解了，但一定有人看到了电视作为教育儿童媒介的潜力。我想你提到了其中一位，名叫 Fred Rainsberry 博士。能简单介绍一下他吗？
Original English **Host**: Benjamin, TV is being misunderstood, but there had to have been people who saw the potential for television as a medium for educating children. And I think you mentioned one of them being by the name of Doctor Fred Rainsberry. Can you just tell us a little bit about him?
**Ed Conroy**: 是的，我是说，Fred Rainsberry 是电视界的绝对远见者。他曾是一名教师。而且，你知道，电视刚出现时引起了巨大的恐慌，大概是在二战后，你知道，你看看现在人们对 AI 的反应，对 AI 的恐惧与当时许多人对电视的恐惧相比微不足道。我是说，他们称之为“**白痴盒子**”，他们认为如果孩子们看太多电视，他们的大脑就会变成一团浆糊。所以 Rainsberry 是早期倡导**教育电视**的代表之一。他坚信，如果你将教育工作者与娱乐工作者聚集在一起，你就能在中间找到共同点，创造出一个孩子愿意观看，同时又能学到东西的产品。当时他是一个孤独的声音，但幸运的是，他成为了 CBC 儿童部门的首任主管。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Yeah, I mean, Fred Rainsberry was an absolute visionary for television. He was a school teacher. And, you know, the hysteria about television when it first came out, sort of after the Second World War, you know, you look at the way people are reacting to AI now, and the fear of AI is nothing compared to how terrified a lot of people were about television. I mean, they called it the idiot box, and they thought it would turn children's brains into mush if they watch too much of it. And so Rainsberry was one of the early kind of champions of educational television. And he really believed that if you brought together educators with entertainers, you could meet them in the middle, you could create a product that was actually, you know, a child would want to watch, but they would learn something. So he was a lone voice in the wilderness at the time, but thankfully, he was given the inaugural head of children's at CBC.
**主持人**: 那么，由此产生了什么？他的遗产是什么？
Original English **Host**: And what came out of that, what were some of, I guess his like, what would be his legacy? I guess.
**Ed Conroy**: 我的意思是，他的遗产，当你思考它时，我认为最重要的就是。**《The Friendly Giant》**（友善的巨人）是他的第一个节目，他把 Bob Honey 从美国请到了**多伦多**。他们谈论了当时大多数儿童节目非常吵闹、粗俗，充满了叫喊声。他们试图通过音量吸引尽可能多的孩子。而 Bob Honey 和 **《The Friendly Giant》**，你知道，他直视镜头，对观众说话，就像只有一个观众——那就是你。他与观众的交流就像朋友一样，而不是孩子。而且他是一个成年人。这些现在都是常识了，但当时有一个像 **《The Friendly Giant》** 这样宁静、对话式的节目，可以说是相当革命性的。然后，你知道，**《Mister Rogers' Neighborhood》**（罗杰斯先生的邻居），很多人不知道它始于**多伦多**。Fred Rainsberry 把 Fred Rogers 带到了这里，然后 Fred Rogers 又带来了 Ernie Coombs。所以 **《Mr. Dressup》**（穿衣先生）以及由此产生的节目，都体现了 Rainsberry 的愿景，这比……你知道，像“像对待聪明人一样与观众交流，因为他们本来就很聪明”要复杂得多。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: I mean, his legacy, when you think about it, is, I would say the big ones. The Friendly Giant was kind of the first show that he, you know, he brought Bob honey from America to Toronto. They talked a lot about this idea that most children's shows at the time were very loud and very crass, and they involved a lot of yelling. And, you know, they were trying to reach, let's say, as many kids as they could through volume. Whereas Bob, Honey and Friendly Giant, you know, he looked he looked directly into the camera and he spoke to the viewer like it was only one person and that was you. And he spoke to the viewer as if they were a friend, not a child. And he was a grown man. And these are all ideas that are very commonplace now. But at the time it was it was quite revolutionary to have a show like Friendly Giant that was so, let's say, serene and conversational. And then out of that, I mean, Mister Rogers neighbourhood, not a lot of people realise that. Started in Toronto. Fred Rainsberry brought Fred Rogers up here, and then Fred Rogers brought Ernie Coombs. And so Mr. Dressup and all of the programs that came out of that really are, are what we call the Rainsberry vision, which again, wasn't really much more complicated than, you know, talk to talk to your viewers like they're intelligent people and they are.
**主持人**: 许多加拿大偶像。**John Candy**、**Ryan Gosling**、**Drake**，他们都是从儿童电视节目开始的，对吧？为什么儿童电视节目是这样一个人才的温床？
Original English **Host**: A lot of Canadian icons. John Candy, Ryan Gosling, Drake, they got their start in children's television, right? I why is children's television such a breeding ground for talent?
**Ed Conroy**: 是的。我想，你知道，在 20 世纪，如果你是一个有抱负的加拿大演员，这真的很难。真的很难找到一份工作。而我认为儿童电视是你能获得角色的少数几个地方之一。而且，也许来自高层的干涉不多，你知道，CBC 或其他一些电视台的执行制片人。他们非常、非常专注于成人节目和面向成人的内容。他们会……你知道，他们会根据 CRTC 的规定每周制作一定数量的节目。所以他们让他们放手去做。因此，有像 Trevor Evans 这样一位 CBC 的制片人，他去了 Second City，看到了 **Dan Aykroyd**、**Catherine O'Hara** 和 **John Candy**。你知道，他说，“这些人会大红大紫”，但他们却在电视上找不到工作。所以他基本上为他们创造了系列节目。然后，你知道，**John Candy** 在 **TVO** 的《Cucumber》中扮演天气预报员。而且我认为他们都很喜欢，他们可以从喜剧转向儿童节目，再回到喜剧。我认为加拿大的喜剧在世界范围内得到了很好的认可。甚至 **Mike Myers**，你知道，也是从儿童节目开始的。所以，我认为记住我们可以制作和我们喜剧一样出色的儿童电视节目，这一点很重要。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, back, back in the day, in the 20th century, if you were a budding actor and you were Canadian, it was really hard. It was really hard to get a gig. And I think children's television was one of the few places where you could get a role. And there wasn't a lot of interference, let's say, from the brass, like, you know, the the executive producers at CBC or, you know, some of the other networks. CTV they were very, very focussed on the adult shows and the grown ups content. And they kind of the kids, you know, they produce a certain number of hours a week that was mandated by the CRTC. So they just let them run wild. And so you had somebody like Trevor Evans, who was a producer at CBC, who was going to Second City and, and watching Dan Aykroyd and, and Catherine O'Hara and John Candy. And, you know, he, he said, these guys are going to be huge, but they couldn't get a job on television. So he basically created the series for them. And then, you know, John Candy's on TVO's cucumber as the weatherman. And I think they all loved that. They could go from comedy to children's to comedy. And I think Canadian comedy is very well recognized around the world. Even Mike Myers, you know, started in children's. And so I think it is important to remember that we can produce children's television that is just as good as our comedy.
**主持人**: 我想挑选你放在书开头的一句话。这是来自 **YTV** 儿童节目 **《It's Alive》** 的创作者 **Josh Morris**。他说：“我学到的一件事是，存在两种力量在相互拉扯。一种是所谓的‘好’的力量，即人们希望通过电视教导孩子们东西，并且不希望孩子们看电视时脑子被‘毁掉’。然后是商业力量。这两种力量往往是相互冲突的。”你为什么包含这句话？
Original English **Host**: I want to pick out a quote that you include in the beginning of the book. This is from Josh Morris, and he was the creator of the YTV children's show called It's Alive. And it says, one thing I've learned is that there's a push and pull by two forces. There's the force of so-called good, of people that want to teach kids things through television and don't want kids brains to rot if they watch TV. And then there's the commercial forces. And those two forces tend to be at cross-purposes. Why did you include that?
**Ed Conroy**: 因为我觉得，在我研究了过去五十年的儿童电视之后，我意识到这种冲突几乎存在于每一个系列的幕后。而且我认为，即使是像**《Mr. Dressup》**或**《Sesame Street》**（芝麻街）这样的大节目，它们也源于这种冲突，即一方面是推动商业利益的人，他们需要商品、书籍，需要尽可能地让所有人都能接触到；另一方面是教育工作者，他们说，“看，这总是有个限度的，对吧？”我是说，电视刚开始时人们的恐惧是，它只不过是一个长期的玩具广告，或者一个垃圾食品广告。而这些东西很重要。但如果你想向年轻观众传达这些信息，你不能说教，对吧？你得有点颠覆性。我认为我们在书中讨论的最佳例子是那些理解了这一点的节目，它们既有趣又有教育意义。它们巧妙地融入了教育内容，让孩子没有意识到他们在学习，无论是情感学习还是死记硬背。他们带着不同的感受离开。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Because I think when I had finished researching the last five decades of children's television, I realised that that conflict was inherent in almost every single series behind the scenes. And I think even something like Mr. Dressup or Sesame Street, you know, the big ones came out of that conflict where you had the people pushing the commercial interest, which is we need merchandise, we need books, we need to be at, you know, as accessible to everyone as possible versus the educators who said, look, I mean, there's a limit to this, right? I mean, the fear of television when it started was that it was just going to be one long toy commercial or one long commercial for junk food. And that stuff's important. But if you're trying to communicate that to a young audience, you can't lecture them, right? You've got to be a little bit subversive. And I think the best examples that that we talk about in the book were shows that understood that, and they were both entertaining and educating. They were kind of sneaked in the educational stuff so that the kid didn't realise they're learning, whether it's emotional learning or rote learning. And they came away feeling, feeling different about it.
**主持人**: 我认为一些儿童节目制作的周边商品在这里并不真正存在，对吧？我的意思是，我记得你谈到了一些法律障碍，甚至阻止了 **TVO** 制作的节目被提供。是这样的吗？你能详细谈谈吗？为什么存在这些障碍？
Original English **Host**: The merchandising that I think some children's programs have done that doesn't really exist here, right? I mean, like, I think you talked about just some of the legal hurdles that even prevent like shows that TVO has done from being available. Is that like, can you talk a bit about that? Like, why, why do these hurdles exist?
**Ed Conroy**: 我的意思是，这是一个非常不幸的情况，在**加拿大**，合同义务，比如说，现在与过去大不相同。而且没有为家庭娱乐或流媒体等提供条款。我是说，没有人真正想到几年以后会有人对再次观看这些节目感兴趣。所以存在一个**档案问题**。很多东西没有被保留下来。我是说，**TVO** 做得不错，但其他一些电视台做得就没那么好了。然后进入当前时代，就没有简单或便宜的方式来发布这些节目，或者让它们可用，你知道，即使是在 YouTube 上。这很可悲，因为你看看美国人或英国人，他们围绕着他们心爱的儿童节目，拥有一个庞大的“家庭手工业”。我是说，**《Sesame Street》**（芝麻街）随处可见，**《Sesame Street》** 的周边商品、剧集或玩具。这里真的没有什么。我认为这导致了这种“记忆清除”现象，有些人实际上不确定这些节目是否存在，还是它们只是他们发高烧时产生的幻觉。他们在家休息，想象了这些东西。所以，再一次，这是写这本书的初衷，为了纠正事实。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: I mean, it's a very unfortunate situation in Canada that the contract contractual obligations, let's say, are very different now than they were back in the day. And there were not provisions given for things like home entertainment or streaming. I mean, nobody really thought beyond a couple of years anybody would be interested in watching these shows again. So there's an archival problem. A lot of things weren't retained. I mean, TVO was was good, but some of the other networks not so good. And then you get into into the current times and there's just no easy or cheap way to release these shows or make them available, you know, even on YouTube. And it's sad because you look at, say, the Americans or the British who have a whole kind of cottage industry based around their beloved children's shows. I mean, Sesame Street is you can't move, but for Sesame Street merchandise or episodes or, you know, toys. And there's really nothing like that here. And I think that's led to this kind of memory holing of things where I think some people actually are not sure if these shows existed or if they were a figment of a, you know, a bad flu that they had. And they stayed home from school and they imagined some of these things. So that was, again, the impetus to set the record straight with the book.
**主持人**: 那么，这本书带我们从 20 世纪 50 年代一直到 90 年代。但 90 年代之后发生了什么？2000 年及以后的儿童电视发生了什么？
Original English **Host**: Well, the book takes us from the 1950s all the way up to the 90s. But then after the 90s, what happens? What happens to kids TV in the 2000 and later on?
**Ed Conroy**: 我认为这更多地与电视整体的变化有关。进入 2000 年，你突然发现 CRTC，以前在发放广播牌照方面非常严格，现在却像发糖果一样发放，而且你有了数字有线电视。因此，在 2000 年推出了 264 个新频道，我认为。突然之间，一切都变得非常小众。我认为早期电视之所以特别，部分原因在于它具有真正的地域感。所以，就像我们说的，你觉得这些节目非常有**加拿大**特色，或者这个节目非常有**多伦多**特色。但随着联合制作和细分选角，你失去了这种感觉，对吧？我是说，制作一个看起来像在彼得堡或任何地方制作的节目，现在已经不经济可行了。然后，再加上互联网的兴起。我认为这是内容**碎片化**的开始，对吧？这是互联网的开端。然后你进入社交媒体，几年后，你进入了智能手机，电视不再是最重要的电信工具，而它曾是 20 世纪最重要的工具。它现在只是一个辅助器官。所以，儿童电视，不是说它不如现在好或不如现在重要。只是内容太多了，而且每个人都在不同的时间、用不同的设备观看。我们不像过去那样享受节目了，那时是一个**单一文化**，我们同时观看它们。所以，我想未来的历史学家很难弄清楚自 2000 年以来发生的事情。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: I mean, I think it's more what happens to TV in general. You get to to the year 2000 and you suddenly have the CRTC, who previously had been very stringent about giving out broadcast licenses, and they're suddenly giving them out like candy, and you have digital cable. And so you had 264, I think new channels launched in 2000. And suddenly everything's very niche. And I think part of what made television very special in the early days was it was there was a real sense of locality. So like we say it was, you felt these shows were very Canadian or this show was very Toronto. And you get into co-productions and, and niche casting and you lose that, right? I mean, it's not economically viable anymore to look like a show that's made in Peterborough or, you know, wherever. And then on top of that, you have the internet starting. And I would say balkanising content, right? The start of that is, is the internet. And then you get into social media and you a couple of years later, you get into smartphones and television is no longer the most important telecommunications tool, which it was in the 20th century. It's just a support organ now. And so children's television, it's not that it's not as good or not as relevant now. There's just so much of it, and everybody's looking at it at a different time, on a different device. We don't enjoy the shows as we did when it was a monoculture, and we saw them all at the same time. So I think good luck to future historians trying to make any sense of what has been going on, you know, since the year 2000.
**主持人**: 让我们结束我们的谈话。但我只是想知道，你知道，我们一直在享受，你知道，回顾过去，谈论我们小时候看过的所有伟大的节目。但这对你来说，仅仅是怀旧吗？
Original English **Host**: Let's wrap up our conversation. But I just wonder, you know, we've been having fun, you know, going through memory lane and talking about all these great shows that we grew up watching. But is there more to this than just nostalgia for you?
**Ed Conroy**: 绝对是。我认为**怀旧**非常重要，尤其是在现在这样的时期，事情可能不太顺利。当然，老年人会在年轻时的事情中寻找慰藉，因为他们不必考虑抵押贷款、战争或如何支付汽油费。但更重要的是，我认为很多这些作品背后付出了大量的努力和思考。它消散了，它丢失了，因为它没有被妥善记录。而且我认为你走进任何一家书店，都有无数关于**好莱坞**电影、**美国乐队**和**美国电视节目**的书籍，而我认为**加拿大流行文化**正在迅速消失。如果……如果有更多的项目试图保护它，它就会消失。所以，对我来说，将这些东西保留在**公共领域**非常重要，因为我认为，是的，怀旧部分很好，但它也是伟大的作品，它也是艺术，也许它应该被视为艺术。它不是。认为电视是一种较低级的艺术是一种非常势利的想法，但事实并非如此。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Absolutely. I think nostalgia is incredibly important, especially times like now when things maybe aren't great. And certainly older people look for comfort in things that happened when they were young because they weren't thinking about a mortgage or a war or how they're going to pay, you know, for their gas. But I think what's more important is the amount of work and the amount of thought. I think that went into a lot of these productions. It dissipates, it gets lost because it's not properly recorded. And I think you walk into any bookstore, there are numerous books about Hollywood films and about American bands and American TV shows, and I think Canadian popular culture is disappearing very quickly. And if there if there aren't more, let's say, projects that try to preserve it, it will disappear. And so it's very important to me to keep that stuff in the in the public domain, because I think, yes, the nostalgia piece is nice, but it's also great work and it is art and maybe it should be recognized as art. It isn't. It's a very snobby thing to think of television as a lesser art, but it's not.
**主持人**: 这是一个很好的结束点。非常感谢。也非常感谢你的书。读起来非常好，非常感谢你今晚在 TVO 上花这么多时间与我们交流。
Original English **Host**: That's a good place to leave it. Thank you so much for this. Thank you for your book as well. It was really good to read, and I really appreciate you spending so much time with us on TVO tonight.
**Ed Conroy**: 谢谢。非常感谢。很荣幸来到 TV Ontario。
Original English **Ed Conroy**: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's an honour to be at the House of TV Ontario.
**主持人**: 我是 Jeyan。感谢收看 The Rundown。我真的很想知道，你看 Eurovision 吗？或者你小时候有没有最喜欢的加拿大电视节目？请告诉我们。发送电子邮件至 TheRundown@TVO.org，或者你随时可以在我们的 YouTube 页面上留下评论。下次再见，明天见。
Original English **Host**: I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. I gotta know, do you watch Eurovision or did you have a favourite Canadian TV show when you were a kid? Let us know. Send us an email at TheRundown@TVO.org, or you can always drop us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you tomorrow.