--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-05-05' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U27NnKQ9SQM speaker: TVO Today tags: - ev-adoption - charging-infrastructure - vehicle-security - cybersecurity-threats - ai-assisted-hacking title: 安省电动汽车推广现实吗？安全隐患与基础设施挑战 summary: 本期节目探讨了安大略省电动汽车（EV）的推广现状与未来。专家分析了EV销售趋势、购车成本、总拥有成本、充电基础设施的可用性及多单元住宅的充电难题。同时，节目深入讨论了中国电动汽车带来的网络安全担忧，以及所有联网汽车普遍存在的安全和隐私风险，强调了政府监管的必要性。专家指出，加拿大在应对这些安全挑战方面基础设施和专业人才不足。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: ai-ml area: tech-engineering project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - Plug'n Drive - Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors - Beauceron Security products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 安省电动汽车推广现实吗？ **主持人**: 2026年第一季度，**电动汽车（EV）**销量激增。欧洲注册的新电动汽车超过五十万辆，比去年增长33%。而领跑者是**挪威（Norway）**。1月份，挪威售出了2000多辆电动汽车，而汽油车仅售出七辆。没错，七辆。我用两只手就能数过来。那么安大略省呢？我们是否准备好迎接电动未来，并且拥有支持它的基础设施？接着，我们听听一位对更多中国电动汽车进入本省感到不满的人的看法——省长**道格·福特（Doug Ford）**。
Original English **Host**: >> EV sales are surging in the first quarter of 2026. More than half a million new electric cars were registered in Europe. That's up 33% from last year. And leading the pack is Norway. More than 2000 electric vehicles were sold there in January, along with just seven gas powered cars. That's correct. Seven. I can count that on two hands. So what about Ontario? Are we ready for an electric future and do we have the infrastructure to support it? Then someone who's not thrilled about more Chinese EVs coming into the province. Premier Doug Ford.
**主持人**: 他有理由担心吗？我们来看看上路后可能面临的安全威胁。欢迎来到“The Rundown”。挪威自称是“世界电动汽车之都”。这并非偶然。它提供激励措施，并在全国安装了超过9000个快速充电桩。本省应该做得更多吗？我们将了解在安大略省购买和驾驶电动汽车有多容易，以及当更多中国汽车进入市场时会发生什么。**Cara Clairman**是**Plug'n Drive**这家非营利组织的总裁兼首席执行官。**Lindsay Wiginton**是**Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors**清洁出行实践的联合负责人。很高兴你们两位来到我们的演播室。你们好吗？
Original English **Host**: >> Is he right to be concerned? We look at the security threats you could face when you get behind the wheel. Welcome to The Rundown. Norway calls itself the electric vehicle capital of the world. And it didn't get there by accident. It offers incentives and has installed more than 9000 fast chargers across the country. Should this province be doing more, we find out how easy it is to buy and drive an EV in Ontario, and what will happen when more Chinese cars hit the market. Cara Clairman is president and CEO of the non-profit Plug'n Drive. Lindsay Wiginton is the co-lead of Clean Mobility practice at Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors. Great to have you both in our studio. How are you guys doing?
**Cara Clairman**: 很好，谢谢。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Doing great. Thank you.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 很高兴来到这里。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Glad to be here.
### 加拿大EV销售趋势 **主持人**: 好的。为了开始我们的谈话，我想展示一张图表，显示加拿大**零排放汽车（zero emission vehicles）**最近的销售过山车。可以看到，2024年某些月份的销量占新车销量的近20%，但由于**补贴（rebates）**消失以及经济疲软，年底销量有所下滑。但到2025年底，出现了一点希望。电动汽车约占加拿大新车销售总额的12.5%。
Original English **Host**: >> All right. To kick off our conversation, I want to pull up a chart showing the sales roller coaster that zero emission vehicles have taken in Canada recently. So you can see that sales in some months of 2024 were almost 20% of new cars, but they fell off late in the year after rebates disappeared and amid a weaker economy. But by the end of 2025, a little hope there. EVs accounted for roughly 12.5% of new vehicle sales across Canada.
### 西方与中国EV需求 **主持人**: 好的，如果加拿大电动汽车销量继续反弹，哪些汽车将最受欢迎？是中国制造的汽车，还是西方制造的汽车？Cara。
Original English **Host**: >> All right, so if EV sales continue to rebound in Canada, which cars will have the biggest demand? Is it the ones that are being made in China or are they the ones being made in the West? Kara.
**Cara Clairman**: 我认为会是西方制造的汽车。人们更熟悉它们。对中国电动汽车仍然存在一些顾虑，尽管它们最终会销售出去，一旦人们变得更加熟悉。所以我想在未来几年我们会看到更多接受度，但可能在第一年左右会少一些。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Well, I think it will be the ones made in the West. People have more familiarity. There's still some fear around the Chinese EVs, although they will they will sell. And once people become more familiar. So I think in future years we'll see more uptake. But probably in the first year or so a little less so.
**主持人**: 当我们谈论西方的汽车时，我们指的是哪些品牌？
Original English **Host**: >> And when we're talking about cars in the West, what type of brands are we? Are we.
**Cara Clairman**: 指的是所有品牌。目前最受欢迎的品牌通常是通用汽车（GM）的车辆，现代（Hyundai）、起亚（Kia），丰田（Toyota）也在崛起。是的，我们看到所有品牌。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Thinking, I mean, all the brands are here. I mean, right now the most popular brands tend to be GM vehicles. Hyundai, Kia, Toyota is coming up there. Yeah. We're seeing we're seeing all the brands.
**主持人**: 好的。Lindsay，你呢？我们应该提到中国电动汽车不符合联邦补贴的资格。这可能也与此有关。但就价格而言，有估计认为它们价格要低得多。那么我们认为未来会走向何方？我们会走向中国电动汽车，还是西方制造的汽车？
Original English **Host**: >> All right. Lindsay, how about you? Now we should mention that the Chinese EVs don't qualify for the federal rebates. That may have something to do with that as well. But in terms of a price point, there are estimates that they come quite lower. So where do we where do we think we're going? Are we going Chinese EVs? Are we going vehicles made in the West?
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 也许我从数字上回答。在2024年，当我们的销量达到全国15%的水平时，当年售出了约20万辆电动汽车。其中约四分之一，也就是49,000辆，是我们当时从中国进口的电动汽车，那是在关税生效之前。所以我的猜测是，未来几年这个比例可能差不多。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Maybe I'll answer leaning on some of the numbers. So in 2024, when we were at that 15% level of sales across the country, there were about 200,000 EVs sold in that year. And about a quarter of those was the 49,000 EVs from China that we were receiving then before those tariffs were applied. So my guess would be that that proportion would look about the same in the coming years.
### 购车成本与维护 **主持人**: 好的。我很好奇我与一些朋友和家人关于选择哪个方向的谈话。电动汽车通常比普通汽车贵，但随着我们看到……Cara，潜在买家在考虑的不仅仅是初始成本，还有**总拥有成本（total cost of ownership）**时，会问些什么问题？
Original English **Host**: >> All right. I'm curious about conversations that I'm having with some of my friends and family about which direction does one go. EVs are usually more expensive than regular vehicles, but that will start to change as we see. Carol, what kinds of questions do potential buyers ask when trying to figure out not just the initial cost, but the lifeline. Right cost?
**Cara Clairman**: 这正是我要说的。当你提到它们成本更高时，是的，标价更高，但总拥有成本要低得多。所以我们回答的很多问题都是为了帮助人们认识到，无论是否有补贴，他们驾驶这些汽车实际上会省钱。补贴肯定有帮助，但说实话，商业案例是存在的，因为随着时间的推移你会省钱。尤其是在目前高昂的油价下，如果你每升汽油要花2加元，我每升电大约花0.27加元。这是一个巨大的差异。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Well, that's exactly what I was going to say. When you say they cost more, yes, the sticker price is more, but the total cost of ownership is much, much less. And so a lot of the questions we answer is to try to help show people that they'll actually save money driving these cars with or without a rebate. The rebates definitely help, but to be honest, the the business case is there because over time you're going to save. And especially with the high gas prices right now, I mean, if you're paying $2 a litre, I'm paying about $0.27. And that's a huge difference.
**主持人**: 给我举个例子，一辆车。当我们看一辆电动汽车时，汽油是一回事，不用为它花钱。但电动汽车的维护呢？
Original English **Host**: >> Give me an example of a vehicle. When we're looking at an EV, gas and gas is one thing not having to pay for that. But how about maintenance and stuff like that for an electric vehicle?
**Cara Clairman**: 平均而言，维护成本较低，因为电动汽车的运动部件非常少。一辆汽油车大约有1800到2000个运动部件。电动汽车的运动部件数量要少几个数量级，大约是20到30个。所以你可以想象，运动部件越少，出故障的东西就越少。而且很多系统根本就不存在。因此，你的维护成本通常会低得多。所以总的拥有成本在电动汽车上要低得多。事实上，你现在要多付的差价大约是5000加元，如果算上补贴，你大约两年驾驶里程就能赚回来。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Well, maintenance on average is less because an EV has very few moving parts. A gas car has somewhere in the order of 1800 to 2000 moving parts. An EV has many orders of magnitude less, like 20 to 30 moving parts. And so you can just imagine fewer moving parts means less things to break. And a lot of systems just not there. And so your maintenance tends to be much, much lower. And so the overall total cost of ownership is much lower in EV. And in fact, the difference you're going to pay, which is right now around 5000 bucks, if you take into account the rebate, you'll make that back in about two years of driving.
### 零排放汽车政策 **主持人**: 哇哦。好的，Lindsay，我希望你能将省份政策与电动汽车的可及性联系起来，因为有些省份没有**零排放汽车强制性规定（zero emission mandate）**，而这会影响潜在买家购买电动汽车的便利性。
Original English **Host**: >> Oh, wow. Okay, Lindsay, I'm hoping you can connect the dots between the province, a province, because some don't have it, a zero emission mandate versus how accessible EVs are to potential buyers.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 当然。这项政策被称为零排放汽车强制性规定，基本上是联邦政府或省级政府可以颁布的一项法规，规定汽车制造商每年必须销售一定比例的电动汽车，并设定一个目标。这个目标通常会随着时间推移而增加。所以，直到去年年中，联邦层面都有一项这样的规定，后来被暂停了，最近被一种略有不同的法规取代。但**BC省（B.C.）**和**魁北克省（Quebec）**几年前就已经实施了这些零排放汽车强制性规定。因此，由于汽车制造商被要求销售一定比例的电动汽车，否则将面临罚款，这就是供应的去向。所以，在过去五到六年里，BC省和魁北克省的消费者有了更多的选择。在那里的地方，你并非必须购买汽油车，但如果你要选择纯电动或插电式混合动力车型，你的选择会多得多。安大略省在供应方面一直处于中间水平。你知道，我们拥有一个庞大市场和相当购买力的优势。所以我们可能没有像一些大西洋省份那样遇到短缺，但肯定是没有了当地的补贴，这导致消费者整体选择更少。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Sure. Yeah. So the policy that's called a zero emission vehicle mandate is basically a regulation that either the federal government or provincial government can pass that says automakers need to sell a certain proportion of electric vehicles in each year, and they set a target. And typically that target increases over time. And so up until sort of mid last year, we did have one of those in place federally that was paused and recently replaced with a slightly different kind of regulation. But the provinces of B.C. and Quebec have had those Zev mandates in place for several years now. And so because those automakers are required to sell a certain portion of EVs or else they'll pay a penalty, that's where the supply goes. And so consumers in B.C. and Quebec have had a lot more choice over the last 5 or 6 years. And it's not that you have to buy a gas car in those places, but you have a lot more choice if you're going to look at for sure, fully plug in or plug in hybrid options. Ontario has been kind of middle of the pack in terms of supply. You know, we have the advantage of being a big market with a decent amount of purchasing power. So maybe we haven't seen the shortages that some Atlantic provinces have had, but certainly not having that rebate locally has meant less choice for consumers overall.
**主持人**: 我猜等待时间也会更长。
Original English **Host**: >> I imagine waiting longer as well.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 绝对。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Definitely.
**主持人**: 那意味着什么？我们要等多久？是几周、几个月还是几年？
Original English **Host**: >> What does that mean? Are we waiting? Is it weeks, months, years?
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 这真的很难说。我们公司参与过一些调查，我们打电话给经销商，问：“我想买这种车，要等多久？”我们看到这些数字时起时伏。我听说有人要等一年左右，甚至更久。你可能也听过这些故事。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> It really fluctuates. We my firm has been involved in doing some surveys where we, you know, we call dealerships and we say, I want to buy this kind of car. How long do I have to wait? And we see those numbers kind of jumping up and down. I mean, I hear stories about people waiting on the order of something more like a year or more. You probably hear those stories.
**Cara Clairman**: 尤其是在疫情期间。任何车的等待名单都很长。我觉得这很大程度上取决于品牌。所以很多时候，当人们想选择一辆电动汽车时，他们必须有点灵活性。所以他们倾向于看几个不同的品牌。他们不像通常购买汽油车的人那样有品牌忠诚度。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Especially during Covid. I mean, the waiting list was for any car was really long. I find it's really brand variable. And so a lot of times when people want to choose an EV, they have to be a little bit flexible because. And so they tend to look at a few different brands. They're not as brand loyal as people typically are with gas cars.
**主持人**: 我想不只是品牌，还有颜色之类的。
Original English **Host**: >> I imagine not just brands as well, but even colours and things.
**Cara Clairman**: 是的，你得接受你能得到的。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Like you. >> Have to. >> Have to accept, accept what you can get.
### 充电基础设施 **主持人**: 好的，知道了。我们来谈谈安大略省的基础设施。这里的充电网络是什么样的，无论是在路上还是在家里？
Original English **Host**: >> Okay, noted. Let's talk about infrastructure here in Ontario. What does the charging network look like, whether it's on the road or in your homes?
**Cara Clairman**: 好的。所以，需要记住的重要一点是，如果你住在独栋房屋或联排别墅，在家安装充电器非常简单。这也是大多数人喜欢的方式。当然，早期采用者通常拥有更多资源。所以他们倾向于住在独栋房屋里的人。大约80%的电动汽车买家是房主。所以他们只需要在家安装一个插座。因此，公共基础设施的重要性就没那么高了。现在我们正朝着主流迈进，越来越多的人将依赖公共充电，他们可能住在无法安装充电器的地方，比如公寓或住宅楼。我想说，作为一个非常早期的采用者，基础设施实际上相当不错。我知道，你知道，新闻说它不太好，但对我们这些开车很久的人来说，它比以前好多了。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> All right. So so the important thing to remember is if you live in a single family home or a townhouse, really simple to get a charger at home. And that's the way most people prefer to do it. And of course, early adopters, they tended to have more resources. So they tended to be folks who lived in single family homes. And that was like 80% of EV buyers were homeowners. So they just got a plug at home. And so the public infrastructure was less important. Now that we're moving more into the mainstream, there's more and more people who will be relying on the public charging, who might live somewhere where they can't get a charger, a condo or an apartment. I would say as like a very early adopter that the infrastructure is actually quite good. I know that, you know, the news is that it's not that good for those of us who've been driving a long time, it's so much better than it used to be.
**主持人**: 这是因为你现在知道去哪里了吗？
Original English **Host**: >> Is that because you know where to go now?
**Cara Clairman**: 是的。而且，还有很棒的应用程序可以查看它们在哪里。所以，如果你住在城市或郊区，基础设施实际上相当不错。全国有超过40,000个充电桩。其中很多是快速充电桩。情况变得棘手的是如果你在乡村、偏远地区驾驶。当然，我们很多人从不这样做。但对于那些需要这样做的人来说，这是一个挑战。然后还有**多单元住宅（multi-unit dwelling）**的挑战。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> Yes. And also, there's great apps available to see where they are. And so if you live in urban suburban Canada, the infrastructure is actually quite good. Like more than 40,000 chargers across the country. A lot of those are fast chargers. Where it gets dicey is if you're driving rural, remote, remote. And of course, a lot of us are never doing that. But for the folks that are, that's a challenge. And then of course, the multi unit challenge.
### 多单元住宅充电与省府支持 **主持人**: 好的。Lindsay。
Original English **Host**: >> All right. Lindsay.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 也许我接着谈谈多单元住宅的挑战。我认为最大的差距之一是，安大略省有一个名为“Charge On”的公共充电公共资助计划。最近发布了第二批资金。所以这有助于建设一些“随时可用”的充电基础设施。但在像多伦多这样的地方，一半以上的人住在多单元建筑里。所以我们绝对需要考虑如何让这些人能够在家充电。对于现有建筑，你可以进行改造，这通常需要某种形式的公共支持。但对于新建筑来说，规定要求在停车位安装线路其实相当简单，就像我们为炉灶安装线路一样。现在为烘干机和洗衣机安装线路，没有人会质疑。但我们安大略省的许多市政当局仍在建造新的公寓，而这些公寓的停车位却没有预留线路。这样做其实很划算，比如每个停车位大约1500加元，这样一来，当他们将来换成电动汽车时，就可以轻松安装充电器，每月节省1600到2000加元。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Well, maybe I'll jump on that segue with the multi-unit challenge. So I think one of the biggest gaps, like Ontario has a public funding program for public charging in general, it's called charge on. There was a second tranche of funding released recently. So that's helping to build out some of that, you know, on the go charging infrastructure. But in a place like Toronto, more than half of people live in a multi-family building. So we definitely need to think about how those folks will have options for charging at home for existing buildings you can retrofit, and that will often take some form of public support to be able to do that. But for new buildings, it's actually quite straightforward to put in place a regulation that says, just add the wiring in the same way that we add wiring for a stove. And nowadays for dryers and washers, nobody questions that. But we are still in many municipalities in Ontario building new condos that don't have wiring to the parking spots. It can be really cost effective to do like something like $1,500 a parking spot, and that person then will have the option to easily install a charger and save 1600, 2000 a month going forward. When they do switch to an EV.
**Cara Clairman**: 我们称之为“预布线”（roughing in），你知道，他们只需要预布线。当然，在建造房屋时进行预布线是最便宜的。而改造可能非常昂贵，因为那时你需要钻穿水泥、地板和墙壁。昂贵的不是充电器，而是土建工程。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> And we call that roughing in, you know, they just need to rough it in. And it's cheapest, of course, to do it when the building is being built. And a retrofit can be very expensive because then you're drilling through cement and floors and walls. It's not the chargers that are expensive. It's the civil work that really gets expensive.
**主持人**: 好的，Lindsay，你如何评价安大略省对零排放汽车的支持程度，与其他省份相比？你已经提到了，我们可以看看魁北克省和BC省，但我们在这里处于什么位置？
Original English **Host**: >> All right, Lindsay, how would you rate Ontario's support for zero emission vehicles compared to other provinces? Touch on a little bit. We can obviously look at Quebec and BC, but where do we stand here?
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 我认为我们处于中间水平。几年前我们发布了一份评分卡，安大略省就在那里。所以我们的一些优势在于，我们有一些电力费率选项，这对充电运营商和电动汽车用户及车队都很有帮助。我们确实在公共充电方面进行了投资，正如我提到的。但有些方面我们没有。所以我们没有像其他两个省那样提供额外的省级补贴。而且，我们还没有普遍的规定要求进行预布线，正如Cara所说的那样。事实上，一些市政当局已经将这一点纳入了自己的规章。目前有一些问题，关于省级政府是否会允许这些规定继续存在，以及他们如何管理开发系统。所以这是一个大问题，因为如果人们无法充电，他们就不会购买电动汽车。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> I'd put us squarely in the middle of the pack, and that's where we published a scorecard a few years ago. That's sort of where Ontario landed. So some of the strengths working in our favour are we have some options around electricity rates that are really helpful for both charging operators and EV users and fleets. We do have the investment in public charging that I mentioned, some things we don't have. So we don't have an additional provincial rebate like those other two provinces have. And we yeah, do not yet have across the board rules that would require those ruffians that Kerry's speaking about. And in fact, some municipalities have gone so far as to adopt that into their own bylaws. And there's some questions right now about whether the provincial government is going to let that stand in the ways that they're hoping to sort of manage the development system. So that's a big concern, because if people can't charge, they're not going to purchase an EV.
**主持人**: 你希望看到什么？
Original English **Host**: >> What would you like.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 我希望看到至少要求预布线十年。所以所有在过去十年内建造的多单元建筑，都应该是电动汽车就绪的，预布线就绪的。对我来说，如果你要建造一座希望使用50年或更长时间的建筑，不为我们知道即将到来的事物进行预布线，似乎是说不通的。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> To see the requirement to rough in for ten years at least. And so all multi-unit buildings that have been built in the last ten years, they're all EV ready, rough and ready. And I mean, to me, if you're going to build a building that's going to be around hopefully for 50 years or more, it just seems nonsensical not to rough in for what we know is coming.
### 车队销售 **主持人**: 好的，Lindsay，你提到了车队。所以我想知道，因为我们现在主要关注的是消费者销售，但你能告诉我们关于电动汽车车队销售的情况吗？我们的市政当局和企业是否在大量购买？
Original English **Host**: >> Okay, Lindsay, you mentioned fleet. So I am curious because we are focusing right now on consumer sales, but what can you tell us about fleet sales of electric vehicles, our municipalities and businesses buying them up?
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 他们是的。你知道，我们大部分时间都在谈论所谓的轻型车辆。所以就是汽车、SUV和轻型卡车。所以有一些车队使用这些轻型车辆。也有一些车队使用重型车辆，比如卡车和特种车辆，比如吊车。总的来说，我们看到电动汽车的采用率很高。所以我的公司支持许多市政当局、公用事业车队以及也做出此选择的企业车队。你知道，正如Cara所强调的，我们谈论的是燃料成本，数量级上要小得多，维护成本大约是汽油车队成本的一半。所以那里的挑战只是确保市场上有一个型号能够匹配这些商用车辆的工况和使用场景。而这正是我们帮助车队进行匹配工作，并预测何时会有其他型号可用的地方。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> They are. And, you know, we've been speaking about what's called light duty vehicles most of this time. So that's like cars, SUVs and light trucks. So there are fleets that use those kinds of light duty vehicles. And there are also fleets that use heavy duty vehicles like trucks and speciality things like bucket trucks. Across the board. We see a lot of adoption of EVs. So my firm supports a number of municipalities, utility fleets, and also corporate fleets who have made that choice. And, you know, as Cara highlighted, we're talking fuel costs, orders of magnitude smaller and maintenance costs about half of what a gas fleet costs. And so the challenge there is just making sure that there's a model on the market that matches the duty cycle and the use case of those commercial vehicles. And that's something that we help fleets do that matching exercise and anticipate when those other models are going to be available.
### 二手EV市场 **主持人**: 好的。我想谈谈我朋友们之间没怎么谈论过，但当我开始做研究时，我就想到了这一点：我们谈论的是汽车。除了经销商处的新车，还有一个完全不同的市场。有二手市场。二手电动汽车市场有多大？
Original English **Host**: >> All right. I want to talk about something that amongst my friends we didn't talk about, but once I started doing research, I was like, right, we're talking about cars. There's a whole other market of vehicles, not just brand new coming out of dealerships. There's used market. How big is this market of used EVs?
**Cara Clairman**: 巨大。二手市场是一个非常好的市场。我认为我们面临的问题是，我们谈到过，因为电动汽车是新事物，人们不认为它们是可获得的。但我们已经有15年的电动汽车商业化生产经验了。所以各种价位的车型和型号都很多。事实上，我认为我们听到的最大担忧是电池寿命，对吧？因为他们会想，“哦，如果是二手车，我不知道电池的状态。”但你可以对电池进行测试，这会让你安心很多。而且，大多数这些车辆的电池都有八年或更长的保修期。所以，如果你真的很担心，你可以购买时确保保修期仍然有效。这样，在拥有车辆的头几年里，你的电池都在保修期内，这能给你信心去选择一辆二手电动汽车。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> It's huge. The used market is a very good market. And I think the problem that we have is we talked about this, that because EVs are new, people don't think of them as being available. But we have 15 years now under our belts of EVs being made in a sort of commercial production. And so many, many makes and models available at all price points. And in fact, I think the biggest concern that we hear, as you know, a group that helps people choose an EV is battery life, correct? Because they think, oh, if it's used, I don't know the state of battery, but there's a test that you can do on the battery and that could give you a lot of comfort. Plus most of those vehicles, the battery has a warranty of eight years or more. And so if you're really concerned, you can buy it so that the warranty is still in place. And so for a few years of ownership, you know, your battery is under warranty just to give you that confidence that you can choose a used EV.
**主持人**: 好的。Lindsay。
Original English **Host**: >> Okay. Lindsay.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 是的。我是说，在过去的三年里，加拿大已经售出了大约60万辆新电动汽车。所以这些最终都会变成二手电动汽车。现在随着联邦补贴的恢复，新电动汽车最高可获得5000加元。销量会进一步增加。这些也会进入二手市场。我的家人实际上就在今年早些时候在二手市场上购买了一辆车，我们有很多选择，而且价格比买新车实惠得多。我认为Cara所在的组织在那里非常重要。你知道，我有一些懂电动汽车的朋友可以发短信问他们，以确保我做出了正确的决定。但不是每个人都有这样的资源。而且有些事情有点吓人，经销商并不总是能给出准确的答案。所以这就是教育方面发挥作用的地方。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Yeah. I mean, just over the last three years in Canada, there's been about 600,000 new EVs sold. So all of those become used EVs at some point. And now with the return of the federal rebate. So for a new EV, you can get up to $5,000. There's going to be more uptake. And those are going to move into the used market as well. My family actually just earlier this year made a purchase on the used market, and we had a lot of options and we were able to get something that was much more affordable than buying new. I think that's where organisations like Cara's are super important. You know, I had friends I could text who know stuff about EVs to make sure I was making a good decision. But not everyone has that. And there are things that are a little bit scary and that, you know, dealerships are not always equipped to answer. And so that's where the kind of education side comes in.
**Cara Clairman**: 也是。嗯，谢谢。是的。我是说。我们就是为了回答你的问题，帮助你试驾，帮助你克服疑虑。如果你有顾虑，而且是免费的，而且我们对品牌是中立的，我们支持所有品牌，我们也不是在推销任何东西。所以这是一个很好的学习方式。
Original English **Cara Clairman**: >> As well. Well, thanks. Yeah. I mean. >> We're there just to answer your questions to help you with test drives to, to help get you over the hump, you know, if you're concerned and it's free and, you know, we're non-biased in terms of brand, we support all the brands and we're not trying to sell you anything. So it's a great way to learn.
**主持人**: 好的，那我们到时候联系。这就是我要说的。这个省的电动汽车时代非常激动人心。Lindsay，非常感谢你分享的深刻见解。
Original English **Host**: >> Well, we'll be in touch then. That's what I'm going to say. Very exciting time for EVs in this province. Lindsay, I want to thank you so much for all of your insight on this. Great.
**Lindsay Wiginton**: 谢谢邀请。
Original English **Lindsay Wiginton**: >> Thanks for having us.
### 安全担忧：中国EV与联网汽车 **主持人**: 省长道格·福特曾称中国电动汽车为间谍车辆。
Original English **Host**: >> Premier Doug Ford has called Chinese electric vehicles spy vehicles.
**道格·福特**: 你知道，当你拿出手机时，是中国人在听你说话。我不是在编造这些。他们会监听你的电话交谈。
Original English **Doug Ford**: >> You know, when you get on your cell phone, it's the Chinese that are going to be listening to you. And I'm not making this stuff up. They're going to be listening to your telephone conversation.
**主持人**: 那么，当你坐在驾驶座上时，你应该担心什么，不应该担心什么？**Beauceron Security**的首席执行官兼联合创始人**David Shipley**加入了我们，他来自新不伦瑞克省的弗雷德里克顿。你好，David。你今天怎么样？
Original English **Host**: >> So what should and shouldn't you be worried about when you're in the driver's seat? David Shipley is the CEO and co-founder of Beauceron Security, and he joins us from Fredericton, New Brunswick. Hello, David. How are you today?
**David Shipley**: 我很好，谢谢。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> I'm well, thank you.
**主持人**: 好的。那么，我们来谈谈中国电动汽车。它们是否比西方制造的电动汽车，或者说，**联网汽车（internet connected vehicles）**，带来更大的安全威胁？
Original English **Host**: >> All right. Well, let's talk about Chinese EVs. Do they present more of a security threat than EVs that are being built here in the West, or even, let's say, internet connected vehicles?
**David Shipley**: 我们在讨论中国电动汽车时，重点主要集中在中国国家对我们潜在的敌意上。但立法者和公共政策制定者在这里犯的错误是，他们假设这种敌意只能通过中国汽车发动攻击来体现，这是一个巨大的错误。问题在于所有这些联网汽车，不仅仅是中国电动汽车，还包括传统汽油或柴油发动机汽车，它们也拥有24/7的互联网连接，现在它们更像是移动的电脑，而不是汽车。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> Our focus on this discussion with Chinese EVs really centres around the potential hostility of the Chinese state towards us. But the mistake that legislators and public policy makers are making here is assuming that that hostility could only manifest itself through attacks via Chinese vehicles, which is a huge mistake. And it's about all of these internet connected vehicles, not just Chinese EVs, but cars with traditional gas or diesel engines that also have 24 over seven internet connections and are now more rolling computers than they are cars.
**主持人**: 好的，我们来谈谈。显然，中国电动汽车存在一些合理的担忧，正如你提到的，当我们谈论中国政府时。但与它们是电动还是非电动，或者它们是否在中国制造相比，联网汽车的更大图景是什么？
Original English **Host**: >> Well, let's talk about it. Obviously, Chinese EVs, there are some legitimate concerns, as you mentioned, when we talk about the Chinese government. But what is the bigger picture when it comes to these internet connected vehicles compared to whether or not they're electric or not, or whether or not they're built in China or not?
**David Shipley**: 我们已经知道了近11年，各种制造商生产的汽车存在巨大的安全和隐私问题。2015年，《连线》（Wired）杂志展示了一段视频，视频中黑客通过互联网控制了一辆**Jeep Cherokee**，当时记者正在驾驶。他们能够干扰车辆的娱乐系统，打开雨刮器，调高空调，并在高速公路上将变速器切换到停车模式。如果你看了这段视频，你会听到Andy Greenberg在停车场里声音中的恐慌。他们演示了如何远程禁用刹车并控制转向。那是十年前的事了。去年，研究人员展示了一辆2020年的**Nissan Leaf**可以通过蓝牙连接被黑客攻击，然后通过蜂窝调制解调器再次远程连接到互联网，并再次能够物理控制车辆。日产花了18个月才修复。顺便说一句，那次Jeep Cherokee的漏洞影响的不仅仅是Jeep Cherokee。它影响了**Stellantis**旗下的许多车型。大约有100万辆汽车不得不召回，以防止被互联网黑客攻击。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> So we have known for almost 11 years that there are massive safety as well as privacy issues with cars made by a variety of manufacturers. In 2015, we saw wired magazine show a video of hackers over the internet taking control of a Jeep Cherokee while the reporter drove the vehicle and they were able to mess with the vehicle's entertainment centre, turn the wipers on, blast the A C, and they turned the transmission into a park mode while driving on the highway. And if you watch this video, you can hear Andy Greenberg's panic start in his voice in a parking lot. They demonstrated how they could remotely disable the brakes and take control of the steering. That was a decade ago. Last year, researchers showed a 2020 Nissan Leaf could be hacked via a Bluetooth connection, establishing the ability to remote back in again over the internet via a cellular modem, and again could take physical control of the vehicle. And it took Nissan 18 months to fix it. That Jeep Cherokee bug, by the way, affected more than just Jeep Cherokees. It affected a whole range of Stellantis vehicles. There were about a million cars that had to get a recall to prevent being hacked over the internet.
**主持人**: 我认识的很多人现在开的都不是1996年的本田思域（Honda Civic），你知道，那种手动摇窗的，似乎每个人都在联网。我们能更清楚地了解有多少汽车实际上连接到互联网吗？
Original English **Host**: >> I don't know many people in my life right now who are driving a 1996 Honda Civic, you know, with crank windows, everyone seems to be connected. Can we get a better sense of how many vehicles are actually connected to the internet?
**David Shipley**: 根据我的研究，目前加拿大道路上约有47%的汽车是24/7连接到互联网的。你可以通过一个应用程序来判断你的汽车是否支持远程启动、解锁车门、获取车辆诊断信息。那辆车就是连接到互联网的。我有一辆2015年的雪佛兰Sonic（Chevrolet Sonic），它内置了4G蜂窝连接，**GM**在收集大量数据。所以这不仅仅是关于特斯拉（Tesla）的，你知道，近十年前的汽车就已经在做这件事了。如今加拿大销售的新车中，有90%都具备这种24/7的互联网连接。从客户的角度来看，汽车制造商推出互联网连接的原因有很多，有些是合法的，有些则不那么合法。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> According to my research, about 47% of all cars on Canadian roads today are connected to the internet 24 over seven, and you can tell if your car has an app that enables you to remote start, unlock the doors, get vehicle diagnostics. That car is connected to the internet. I had a 2015 Chevrolet Sonic, and it had this 4G cellular connectivity baked into it, and GM was gathering tons of data. So this isn't just about Tesla's, you know, cars that almost go back a decade have been doing this. 90% of new cars sold in Canada today have this 24 over seven internet connection. And there are a variety of business reasons legitimate and some not so legitimate from an end customer perspective, why they're pushing internet connectivity down our throats.
**主持人**: 问题是，消费者能否关闭它？如果我担心，而且说到底，我们不想危言耸听，但如果我担心，我能关掉它吗？
Original English **Host**: >> Question is that something you can turn off on the consumer end? If I was concerned, and at the end of the day, we don't want to be alarmist here, but is that something that if I am concerned about, can I turn it off?
**David Shipley**: 不能。没有简单的方法可以让人们关闭它。这是我向立法者提出的根本性第一点：通过硬件而不是软件来构建这种能力，在技术上并不复杂，因为你不能信任软件。软件可能会骗你说“不，不，它已经关闭了”，但实际上并没有。所以应该有一个物理开关，或者在汽车的保险盒里有一个专用的保险丝，车主可以轻松找到并拔掉插头。而且有很多合法的理由让你想要这样做。首先，想象一下存在广泛的漏洞。以加拿大自己的成功案例**QNX**为例，它由**BlackBerry**制造，是超过2.3亿辆汽车的操作系统。如果它出现关键漏洞，并且需要一些时间来安全地修补并完成召回，我们可能需要能够发布公开新闻，说明“如果你拥有以下型号的汽车，请这样做，这样你仍然可以安全地驾驶你的汽车”。而我们没有这种能力。事实上，由于美国立法要求汽车制造商在互联网上设置远程禁用开关，我们实际上正朝着完全相反的政策方向发展，即人们无法控制这一点。立法者的意图从某些公共政策的角度来看是值得称赞的。所以，如果人们没有支付罚款，或者在支付子女抚养费等方面有所疏忽，也许他们的汽车可以被禁用，作为一种公共政策杠杆。这听起来很酷。直到通用汽车被中国黑客攻击，700万辆汽车在那天无法启动。如果我们认为这听起来像科幻小说……
Original English **David Shipley**: >> No. There is no easy way for people to turn off. And that's the fundamental first point I've made to legislators is that it is not technologically complex to build in the capacity via hardware, not via software, because you can't trust software. Software can lie to you and say, no, no, it's turned off and it's not. So either be a physical switch or a fuse dedicated in the car's fuse box that an owner could easily identify to pull the plug. And there are lots of legitimate reasons why you'd want to do that. First, let's imagine there's a widespread vulnerability. Let's take an example of Canada's own success story, QNX, which is made by BlackBerry and is the operating system for more than 230 million cars. If it has a critical vulnerability and it's going to take some time to safely patch it and get that recall done, we may want to be in a position where we could put out public news and say, if you own one of the following model cars, here's what you do so you can still drive your car safely. And we don't have that capability. In fact, thanks to US legislation mandating remote kill switches over the internet into car manufacturers, we're actually heading in the exact opposite policy direction where people don't have the control to do this. And the legislators intents here are admirable from certain public policy standpoints. So if people haven't paid fines or they're remiss in, say, child support payments, maybe they can have their car disabled as some kind of a public policy lever. Which sounds cool. Until GM gets hacked by China and 7 million cars don't start that day. And if we're thinking this sounds science fictiony.
**主持人**: 确实如此。
Original English **Host**: >> It does.
**David Shipley**: 一家名为Delta的俄罗斯汽车安全制造商，生产了一种可以远程禁用发动机的安全系统，被一个未知团体黑客攻击了。我们大概可以推断出是谁干的，汽车无法启动，正在行驶的汽车也报告发动机停止了。所以，这种情况已经发生过了。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> A a car security manufacturer in Russia called Delta, which made a security system that could remotely disable the engine, was hacked by an unknown group. We can probably draw conclusions as to who did it, and cars were not starting and cars that were driving were drivers reported the engine stopping. So it's already happened.
### 物理安全与车企优先项 **主持人**: 从我这里了解到的情况是，你不太担心间谍活动，而更担心恶意行为者，而且这些行为者可能来自各种途径。你能详细说明一下吗？
Original English **Host**: >> From what I gather, you are less worried about espionage and more worried about bad actors, and that can come in a variety of ways. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
**David Shipley**: 嗯，就**物理安全（physical safety）**而言，这是可能导致人们死亡的地方。你知道，我们看到朱莉娅·罗伯茨（Julia Roberts）主演的那部很棒的反乌托邦网络攻击电影《我们留下的东西》（Leave the World Behind），里面有特斯拉互相碰撞，自动驾驶，堵塞了所有匝道的出口。我非常希望将这些留在戏剧性的科幻小说的范畴里，但我们正在加速让它成为现实，这似乎是个愚蠢的决定。不仅如此，全国的警察部门都没有能力进行法医分析。即使是国家层面，我们也没有实验室能力进行法医分析。所以，我们会有人被亲密伴侣或其他人的软件漏洞攻击而杀死。这是可能的。这是有动机的，而且我们甚至无法知道发生了什么。所以，如果我们能合理地预见到这些灾难，为什么我们还要这样做呢？而且，你知道，如果你正在听这个节目，并说“好吧，为什么汽车制造商不关心这个？”因为他们更关心其他事情。我稍后会谈到那些。那些更多地涉及隐私和消费者权利方面的问题。但汽车制造商在其整个现代历史上，一贯向我们表明，他们会优先考虑利润而非安全。记住，他们就是那些在皮卡车上安装侧置油箱的人，他们认为为了低廉的增量成本而对工程设计进行某些更改不值得，即使他们可以合理地预见到每年高达一千人的死亡。所以这个行业已经向我们表明，他们过去无法自我监管。斑马不会改变它的条纹。所以我们需要合理的政府监管。这是因为数据背后的商业驱动力非常强大。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> Well, so when it comes to physical safety, this is where you people can be killed. You know, when we saw that Julia Roberts Marchand, a fantastic dystopian cyber attack movie, what we leave behind and all these Teslas slamming into each other, driving themselves, blocking all the exits on an off ramp. I would very much like to leave that in the realm of dramatic science fiction, we are pushing the pedal down to make it real, and that seems like a stupid, dumb idea. And not only that, police forces across this country do not have the capability to do forensic analysis. And even nationally, we don't have the capacity in a lab to do forensic analysis. So we are going to have people killed by intimate partners or others, by injecting software bugs into their cars. It's it's possible. It's plausible there's motive, and we wouldn't have the ability to even know what's happening. So if we can reasonably foresee these disasters, why are we doing it? And, you know, if you're if you're listening to this and saying, well, why wouldn't the car manufacturers care about this? Because they care more about other things. And I'll talk about those in a minute. And those touch more on the privacy and consumer rights stuff. But car manufacturers, over their entire modern history have consistently shown us they will prioritise profits over safety. Remember, these are the folks that brought us the side mounted gas tank on pickup trucks that decided that making certain changes to engineering designs for low incremental cost weren't worth it to them, even though they could reasonably anticipate up to a thousand deaths per year. So this industry has shown us that they can't self-regulate in the past. They have that zebra has not changed its stripes. So we do need reasonable government regulation. And it's because the business drivers behind this data are so powerful.
**主持人**: 我们在谈论权力。我确实必须问一下，**人工智能（AI）**在其中扮演什么角色？当我们谈论你提到的那个关于Jeep Cherokee的例子时，那已经是很久以前的事了。人们能多快地做到你所说的事情？
Original English **Host**: >> We're talking about power. I do have to ask, you know, what role does artificial intelligence play into this? When we're talking about sort of you give that example of the cheap jerky. You know, that was quite a while, a while ago. How quickly can people do some of the things that you're saying?
**David Shipley**: 那么，Jeep Cherokee黑客攻击背后的两位研究人员，Chris Valasek，抱歉，我记不起另一位先生的名字了。他们是经验丰富、受过良好教育的专业黑客。道德黑客，他们……查理·米勒（Charlie Miller），抱歉，是查理·米勒和克里斯·瓦拉塞克，他们确切地知道自己在做什么。今天我们听到一些故事，也看到一些例子，**AI模型（AI models）**已经提炼了这种专业知识，并可以提供给那些经验远不如他们的人。而危险就在那里滋生。从拥有像中国国家安全部那样强大的黑客团队的国家，到一个被一群愤世嫉俗者激进化、憎恨其他人类的17岁的年轻人，通过像“seven six four online”这样的群组，只是想看看他们是否能杀死一些无辜的人。这是我的第一点。但立法者们，说实话，Jeyan，他们只是不断回到隐私和间谍活动上，说实话，间谍活动是会发生的。这是“大博弈”，你可以聪明地应对，说“好吧，也许联网汽车不应该靠近敏感的军事或政府场所”。中国多年前就禁止了特斯拉，这是有充分理由的。但间谍活动不是我们最大的担忧。我们最大的担忧是企业和政府滥用和操纵数据，从而从根本上损害加拿大人的权利。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> So so the two researchers behind the Jeep Cherokee hack, Chris Valasek, and I apologise. I can't remember the other gentleman's name. These were experienced, well educated, professional hackers. Ethical hackers who. Charlie Miller, sorry, it was Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek knew exactly what they were doing. Today we're hearing stories, and we're seeing examples of AI models that have distilled that expertise and could make it available to someone who is far less experienced. And that's where the danger blossoms from. Just being nation states with their elite hacking teams, like China's amazing hacking teams through their Ministry of State Security, to an embittered 17 year old who's been radicalised by groups of misanthropes. That's the people that just hate other humans through groups like seven, six, four online and just want to see if they can kill some innocent people. And that's that's my first point. But legislators honestly, Jeyan, they just they keep going back to the privacy and the espionage and honestly, spying is going to happen. It's the great game and you can be smart about it and say, okay, maybe internet connected vehicles shouldn't be insensitive military or government sites. China did it banned Teslas years ago for good reason. But spying isn't our biggest concern. It's the potential abuse and manipulation of data by corporations and governments in ways that fundamentally harm Canadian rights.
**主持人**: 鉴于此，加拿大是否有能力应对你今天提到的这些情况的安全基础设施和专业人员？
Original English **Host**: >> With that, does Canada have the security infrastructure and the professional personnel to deal with some of what you have mentioned today.
**David Shipley**: 远远不够。你知道，我听立法者说，我在过去两个月里两次向议会委员会就互联网连接汽车安全问题作证。我的沮丧感无法形容，听到一位政客谈论我们可笑、可悲地过时的联邦隐私法，好像这能阻止企业滥用数据一样。不行。或者说这能阻止中国的国家级黑客？你在开玩笑吗？我们有一部法律，20多年来没有根本性更新，在哈珀政府时期（Harper government）于2015年只做了一些微小的更新，这从根本上导致今天的加拿大人和安大略省居民享有的权利不如欧洲人和加州人。怎么会这样？我们怎么能容忍？这是因为我们的政客们对这些问题没有动力。但滥用是巨大的。听着，当德克萨斯州（Texas）在人权隐私权方面处于领先地位，而我们却落后于德克萨斯州时，我们真该好好反省一下。德克萨斯州的总检察长曾抓获多家汽车制造商非法获取人们的驾驶数据，未经同意就出售给他们的保险公司。然后他们发现自己的保险费率上涨了。我的意思是，这是风险因素之一。我们谈论这个。这些联网汽车的其他风险因素，亲密伴侣暴力。我可以告诉你，我接过电话，不得不为那些逃离亲密伴侣暴力的人制定一份清单，因为他们正在逃离的人在技术上非常精通。我记得曾指导过一个人，她有一辆斯巴鲁（Subaru）。这是五年前的事了。我不得不问她，“你知道你的车有这个互联网连接功能吗？”她甚至都没意识到，但它确实有。所以她的物理位置就暴露了。所以她不仅要扔掉她的电脑和智能手机，她还得扔掉她的车。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> Not even remotely close. You know, I listen to a legislator. I've testified twice in the last two months to parliamentary committees about this issue of internet connected car safety. And I my frustration could not be could not be larger to hear a politician talk about our laughably, pathetically outdated federal privacy laws, like it somehow would deter corporations from abusing this data. Nope. Or that it would somehow deter China's nation state hackers. Are you kidding me? We have a law that has not been fundamentally updated in 20 plus years that got the most minor of updates in 2015 under the under the Harper government, and that fundamentally positions Canadians and Ontarians today with less rights than Europeans and Californians. How is that? How do we tolerate that? And it's because our politicians aren't motivated by these issues. But the abuses are huge. And listen, when Texas is leading the human rights privacy rights charge and we're lagging behind Texas, we should really shake our heads. And it was Texas attorney general that caught several automakers illegally taking people's driving data, selling it without their consent to their insurance companies. And then they noticed their insurance rates got up. I mean, that's one of the risk factors. We talk about this. The other risk factors with these internet connected cars, intimate partner violence. I can tell you, I've had phone calls where I have sadly had to develop a checklist of people fleeing intimate partner violence, where the person they're fleeing is technologically sophisticated. And I remember walking someone through this and they had a Subaru. This was five years ago. And I had to ask them, do you know if your car has this internet connected feature? And they didn't even realise it and it did. And so their physical location was then compromised. So they didn't just have to get rid of their computer and their smartphone. They had to ditch their car.
**主持人**: David，我们就此打住。这真的非常有启发性。让我想买一辆1998年的本田思域之类的。但确实是一些很好的信息。我非常感谢你的时间。
Original English **Host**: >> David, we are going to leave it there. This was really, really insightful. Makes me want to get a 1998 Honda Civic or something like that. But some really good information there. I really appreciate your time.
**David Shipley**: 非常欢迎。
Original English **David Shipley**: >> You're very welcome.
**主持人**: 我是Jeyan。感谢收看“The Rundown”。你会考虑换电动汽车吗？我想知道。发邮件给我们 rundown@TVO.org 或给我们留言。在那之前，明天见。
Original English **Host**: >> I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. Would you ever switch to an EV? I want to know. Email us at rundown@TVO.org or leave us a comment. Until then. I will see you tomorrow.