--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-04-16' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msaLIuRCGWc speaker: TVO Today tags: - internet-impact - music-industry - digital-transformation - consumer-behavior - future-of-music title: 互联网如何改变加拿大音乐产业：从早期探索到AI时代 summary: 本次访谈深入探讨了互联网对加拿大音乐产业的革命性影响。从早期互联网作为概念的模糊阶段，到粉丝社区（如Slonet）的兴起，再到唱片公司和独立厂牌如何适应数字浪潮。访谈回顾了CD销售的衰落、Napster和iPod的短暂辉煌，以及MP3和流媒体如何重塑了音乐消费模式。内容还触及了音乐博客（Chrome Waves, Said the Gramophone）和聚合器（Hype Machine）的关键作用，以及MySpace等平台的兴衰。最后，访谈展望了AI时代对音乐产业和艺术家品牌的潜在颠覆性影响，强调了技术快速迭代下内容的“易逝性”和“数字腐朽”等议题。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: tech-trends area: tech-engineering project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: [] products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 为何撰写这本书：历史的记录与研究的起点 **金·戈登**: 为什么这段历史值得写成一本书？
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Why was this history worth writing a book about?
**金·戈登**: 我认为它值得写成书，因为它之前从未真正被完整地写过，至少没有以单一的叙事形式呈现。我认为这本书是典型的加拿大历史著作，因为它在很大程度上是对现有故事的“策展”。很多故事都存在于那些不再在线的网站、零散的文章，或者我在多伦多参考图书馆发现的一些资料中。这些故事零散地存在于各个地方，但从未有一个完整的故事讲述互联网如何影响了加拿大音乐。所以，当我几年前构思这本书时，这真是一个灵光乍现的时刻。我想，如果我不写，也需要有人来写，因为它是一个非常重要的故事，需要被记录下来留给后代。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: I think it was worth writing about because it's never really been written about before. Not all all in a singular narrative at least. I mean, I think this book is a quintessential like Canadian history book because it's really really putting it together was an act of curation. A lot of these stories lived in, you know, websites that aren't online anymore or the odd article here or maybe something I found at, you know, the Toronto Reference Library and whatnot. So, it lived in all these bits and pieces, but there never was like a fullsome story about all the ways that the internet impacted Canadian music. So, when I came up with the book idea, you know, several years ago, it was a real light bulb moment. It's like, if it's not me, someone needs to write this, too, cuz I think it's a really important story and something that needs to be documented for future generations.
**采访者**: 在研究方面，你从哪里开始？因为互联网是一个很大的地方。你的起点是什么？
Original English **Interviewer**: Where do you sort of begin researching because, I mean, the internet's a big place. Like, what's your starting point?
**金·戈登**: 起点是我自己使用这些服务和访问这些网站的记忆。当我开始整理这本书时，我做的第一件事就是勾画出故事的不同部分。我知道**聊天室**和**论坛**是其中重要的一部分，但也意识到人们过去获取音乐的各种途径，比如**Sam the Record Man**和**HMV**。互联网对这些商店有什么影响？显然，影响是它们基本上倒闭了，因为商业和人们对实体音乐的关系发生了变化。**博客**也是故事的重要组成部分。当然，在加拿大，像**MuchMusic**和**CBC**以及所有不同的媒体组织都扮演了重要角色。书中还有很大一部分内容，是关于那些似乎已经消失在历史中的加拿大音乐初创公司。比如**PureTracks**，它被誉为加拿大的**iTunes**版本，虽然它比那更复杂。还有**Maple Music**，这是一个非常有趣的混合电子商务/唱片公司，他们也销售商品。这是一种阻止“守门人”阻碍加拿大音乐人与粉丝联系的方式。所以，这其中有很多历史。当时已有记载，但随着网站的消失、出版物的倒闭以及时间的流逝，我真的想把这些记录下来，变成一个单一的历史，重现那个关键的时期，以及互联网和更广泛的消费技术如何改变了我们与音乐的关系。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Really, the starting point was like my memories of using all of these services and visiting all these websites. So, when I started putting together the book, the very first thing I did is I started to just sketch out, well, what are all the different parts of the story? I knew things like chat rooms and message boards were a big part of it, but then I knew also was, well, but there's all the places people used to get music, whether it's like Sam the Record Man and HMV. What what you know, what was the impact on the internet with those sorts of like stores? And obviously, the impact was they basically went out business because, you know, commerce and people's relationship to physical music changed. And yeah, like blogs were a big part of the story. Obviously, here in Canada, you know, MuchMusic and CBC and all the different like media organizations were a big part of it, but then there was also a big part of the book, too, is there were all these like Canadian music startups that really seem like they've been lost to history. So, names like PureTracks, which was the Canadian version of iTunes. I mean, you could call it that. It was more than that. There was stuff like Maple Music, which was a really interesting like hybrid like e-commerce / label, but they did merchandise. A real way to like really stop the gatekeepers of keeping Canadian musicians from their fans. So, again, there was a lot of history. It was written about at the time, but as websites go away and publications go out of business and time passes, I really want to document this, you know, into a singular history and really document this really significant time again in all the ways that, you know, the internet and and more broadly like consumer technology change our relationship with music.
### 早期互联网与乐队的兴趣 **金·戈登**: 我们回到 90 年代初。那时候互联网上没有多少网站，1993 年大概只有 623 个。为什么那个时候的乐队会想使用互联网？这对他们有什么好处？
Original English **Kim Gordon**: I want to go back to the early '90s. Uh, the internet, there was not that many websites. There was maybe 623, I think, in 1993. Why would a band at that time be interested in using the internet? What would be in it for them?
**金·戈登**: 回想那个时期，尤其是 90 年代大部分时间里，互联网似乎更多的是一个“概念”而不是“现实”。人们会听到它的消息，但它更多地是**学者**、**计算机俱乐部**甚至**“书呆子”**的领域。而且，即使是接入互联网也非常困难，你需要合适的电脑、调制解调器，以及某种形式的网络连接。对我来说，上高中最后几年我用过 **America Online (AOL)**，但大学期间（90年代末），我主要是在**麦克马斯特大学**的计算机实验室上网。它几乎是一个共享的实体。所以，书中有一个重要主题，就是我们对互联网的访问方式是如何发生变化的。比如，我们从每月 5 小时的 AOL 上网，变成了“无限畅享”的互联网；或者 Wi-Fi 变得普及，你可以随处携带笔记本电脑。还有一个巨大的变化，虽然几乎超出了本书的范围，那就是**智能手机**的普及。在本书描写的 1990 年到 2010 年这个时代，**iPhone** 只是出现在末期，而**黑莓手机**则处于鼎盛时期。但就在本书范围之外，智能手机和社交媒体接管了一切，那是另一个章节了。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: When you think back of really, certainly during those times and really throughout like a lot of the 1990s, the internet seemed to be almost more a concept than a reality. So, people would hear about it, you know, it used to be the more the domain of like academics and, you know, just like the computer club down the street and and frankly like nerds. Like nerds would use it. But even to get on the internet was really challenging cuz you needed the right type of computer, you needed like a modem, you needed some sort of internet connection. So, I know for me like, sure, like we had America Online for my last couple years of high school, but through university in the late '90s, I primarily used the internet cuz I'd go to the computer lab at McMaster University. It was almost this shared entity. So, that that's a big part of like the theme in the book, too, where where were those like really foundational elements of like when our almost like access to the internet changed. So, when we went from like 5 hours through AOL to like all you can eat internet or when Wi-Fi became, you know, really mainstream where all of a sudden you could take your laptop to any room of the house. And then like the big one, and this is almost right outside the scope of the book, is really when smartphones became like fully mainstream. So, you know, when you think of the era of the book, 1990 to 2010, the iPhone was around towards the tail end and it it's almost like the heyday of the BlackBerry. But then like right outside the scope of the book, both smartphones took over and social media took over, and that's a whole other chapter.
**金·戈登**: 在互联网早期，如果你是一个乐队，你就知道这是一种与世界各地的人建立联系的方式，但当时你甚至不知道这意味着什么。你会想，好吧，我会有几个丹麦的朋友，几个加州的朋友，但这有什么意义呢？但很快，这一切就加速了，它改变了一切，正如我们所见。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: So, when you look back to like those early days of the internet, um, you know, if you were a band, you sort of knew that it was a way to connect to people around the world, but you didn't really know even what that meant at this point. It's like, okay, so I'm going to get a couple people in Denmark and a couple people in California, but what does that even mean? Um, but very very quickly this accelerated and it just it changed everything as we saw.
**采访者**: 书中提到的一些乐队，他们当时在使用邮件列表，对吗？其中有一个叫做 Slonet。你能给我们讲讲那是什么吗？
Original English **Interviewer**: Well, some of the bands that you talk about in the book, I mean, they were using mailing lists. Yeah. And there was one called Slonet. You want to tell us what that was?
**金·戈登**: 是的，绝对。书中一个重要的主题是**粉丝社区**和**爱好者**。他们早期做了很多基础工作，而 Slonet 就是一个完美的例子。Slonet 曾有几种不同的形式：它是一个邮件列表，后来我认为它变成了一个 **Yahoo! 群组**。但本质上，它是一个为**Sloan**乐队——一支 90 年代至今的伟大东海岸独立摇滚乐队——的粉丝们建立的社区。它只是一个让 Sloan 粉丝们在线交流的地方，采用经典的邮件列表格式，持续进行对话。粉丝们通常通过电子邮件接收信息，讨论典型的话题，比如“我听说他们正在录制新专辑”或者“我正在找那张 7 英寸的唱片”，或者“嘿，我看到……”它也是一个发现与 Sloan 乐队相关的其他乐队的好途径，比如东海岸的艺术家，像是来自纽芬兰的**Hardship Post**，或者来自新不伦瑞克的**Eric's Trip**。所以，这确实是一个深入、沉浸式地讨论你最喜欢的乐队的机会。据我所知，Sloan 的成员并没有直接参与 Slonet，但很快他们就开始提供一些小小的支持。比如，邀请粉丝去他们的唱片公司办公室，或者给他们一些小零碎的信息。这一切都是由粉丝社区建立的。但值得称赞的是，他们的管理团队和乐队周围的人很快就意识到：“我们应该利用这一点，因为这些人很关心，而且他们也是我们的好支持者。” 同样，当时上网的人不多，但那些在网上的人，他们是乐队的“大使”。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the big themes in the book is it's really the fan communities and the enthusiasts. They they did a lot of the legwork early on and Slonet's perfect example of that. So, what Slonet was was it was it actually took a few different forms. It was an emailing list and then it was it I believe it changed into like a Yahoo group at some point, but really it was a fan-built community for fans of Sloan, you know, the great East Coast indie rock sensation of the '90s until this present day. It was just a place like Sloan fans could connect online. And, you know, it the classic mailing list format. It was just it was an ongoing dialogue. You know, some people were generally receiving by email and, you know, it's typical stuff fans talk about. It's like, oh, I heard they were recording a new album or I'm looking for this 7-in or hey, I saw, you know, it was a great way to to also discover like other bands sort of adjacent to Sloan like other East Coast artists like the people talk about like Hardship Post out of Newfoundland or you got Eric's Trip from New Brunswick. So, it was really an opportunity to have these like deep immersive conversations about your favorite band and um, I know with Slonet, I the guys from Sloan were not directly involved, but really quickly they started to give little bits of access. You know, they'd invite them down to their label office or, you know, there'd be other little things that they'd sort of slip them little nuggets and whatnot. And again, it was all built by the fan communities, but to their credit like their management and the people around the band very quickly saw, you know, we should we should tap into this cuz these people care and these are like good advocates for us, too. And again, yeah, there wasn't a lot of people online, but the people who were there were, you know, they they were like ambassadors for the band.
**采访者**: 我想问一下，他们能追踪像唱片销量增长或人气上升这样的数据，是因为这些邮件列表吗？
Original English **Interviewer**: >> Could they I guess track like record sales like increasing or like their popularity on the on the rise because of of this these mailing sites?
**金·戈登**: 我不知道，感觉那是在后来才出现的。在 2000 年代，随着**电子商务平台**的发展，这开始变得可能。营销方面的一个问题是：如何追踪？你有一个人在论坛上讨论，有人在 Facebook 上谈论你，或者有人在 TikTok 上发帖。这是否会转化为更多的专辑销量？我不知道。但是，有一些指标，至少在某种“虚幻”的意义上，可以作为人气的衡量标准。如今，我们看到**流媒体播放量**等类似的东西，更不用说**网站流量**和其他指标了。但在当时，我感觉你只能凭直觉去判断。你会觉得，“嗯，好像很多人关注”，“似乎有些事情正在发生”。我不确定具体是什么，但我们会继续下去，因为我觉得“这有点意思”。我认为这反映了很多互联网早期的状况。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: >> I I I I don't know about that cuz that came I feel like that came like much much later. I mean, even, you know, into the 2000s when like e-commerce platforms it was one of the things about like the early internet and it's even kind of a thing more broadly about marketing is how do you track, okay, so you've got, you know, this person on message board, you have this person talking about you on Facebook or this person did a TikTok. Does that translate to more album sales? I don't know, but, you know, there are certain metrics that at least in like in ethereal sense, you know, can be gauges of, you know, popularity. And, you know, today we see versions of this sort of thing with like stream counts and whatnot, to say nothing of, um, you know, like web traffic and other like metrics, too. But like back then, I feel like you would sort of just look at it and then it's like a gut feeling. It's like, seems like a lot of people, you know, it seems like there's something happening here. I'm not exactly sure what it was, but let's let's keep going with this cuz this I'm not sure what it is, but it's something. And I feel like that that's a story of like a lot of internet.
### 唱片公司的角色与数字时代的挑战 **采访者**: 你提到了唱片公司。它们具体做了什么？它们是如何利用互联网的？
Original English **Interviewer**: You mentioned record labels. Like, what what what did they do exactly? How did they sort of take advantage of this?
**金·戈登**: 是的。在加拿大，一家真正的先驱是来自温哥华的**Network Records**。据我所知，他们早在 1993 年就拥有了一个 **BBS（电子公告板）**，一个在线消息板，可以说是非常原始的。我通过**Internet Archive**找到并挖掘出了他们最早的 BBS 消息。这几乎是一种“宗旨宣言”。他们写着：“我们是 Network Records，来自温哥华。我们的一些艺人包括 **Skinny Puppy** 和 **Sarah McLachlan**。”他们只是在宣告：“我们拥抱科技，我们要尝试新事物。” 然后会提供一些关于他们艺人的信息，比如 Skinny Puppy 要去巡演了，Sarah McLachlan 有了新专辑。他们说：“嘿，我们这里有**The Grapes of Wrath**乐队，他们刚改名叫 **Ginger**，并且很快会出一张 CD-ROM。”他们只是发布一些信息片段。这是一家独立唱片公司。我们也看到，**主流唱片公司**也加入了进来。像 **Sony** 和 **Universal** 都有自己的经验。90 年代的主流唱片公司也很有意思，因为当时也经历了一个**大规模整合期**。我采访过的一位 Pete Watson，他曾是 **MCA Records** 的早期网络专家，在那里他负责将公司接入互联网，然后公司合并或成为了 Universal 的一部分。所以，他们合并到了 Universal，并做了同样的事情。与此同时，他还在运营所有这些互联网项目。那是一个非常有趣的时期，行业内部发生了巨大的企业变革。同时，有了一个叫做“互联网”的东西，然后两年后，出现了“**Napster**”，再后来，有了“**iPod**”。你觉得互联网是个大事件？你还没见过真正的风暴呢。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, here in Canada like one of the real frontrunners was a Network Records out of Vancouver. Um, I know that they had like a BBS, like a online like message board, like a real primordial one as early as 1993. I was actually able to dig up their very first BBS message, um, via the Internet Archive. And it was it was almost like a statement of purpose. They're like, you know, we're Network Records, we're out of Vancouver. Some of our artists are Skinny Puppy and Sarah McLachlan and, you know, we're kind of they're just saying we're into technology. We're going to try some stuff. Um, here's a bit of information about our artist. Skinny Puppy's going on tour. Sarah McLachlan has this new album out. Hey, we're going to, you know, with the Grapes of Wrath have just, you know, changed their name to Ginger and they're going to have a CD-ROM coming out. And they're just putting out like bits of information. So, I mean, that's kind of at the indie label, but we did see as well like the major labels they they did jump on this. And again, they did their own experience like Sony and Universal. It was interesting for the major labels of the 1990s, too, cuz there was also a period of like a lot of consolidation. Too, um, someone I spoke to for the book, Pete Watson, he was like a real um, an early like web guy for MCA Records and he was there getting them onto the internet and then it merged or it became part of Universal. So, they went over to Universal and did the exact same thing. And meanwhile, he's running all these internet experiences. So, like a a really like interesting time, too, where there was so much change happening in the industry almost corporately. Meanwhile, there's this thing called internet and then 2 years down the line, there's this thing called Napster and then a bit later, there's this thing called the iPod. Yeah. It's like, you thought the internet was a big deal. You haven't seen anything yet.
**采访者**: 变化的速度令人着迷，因为我确实是 Napster 的早期使用者之一，然后接着是 iTunes。我们不再购买 CD，然后又开始流媒体。这变化的速度怎么能这么快？人们是如何适应这些变化的？
Original English **Interviewer**: Yeah, the pace of change is really fascinating cuz I mean, I mean, I was one of those early adopters of Napster and then and then it became and then there was iTunes and then uh, yeah, it's like you're no longer buying CDs anymore and then you're streaming. It's like, how do you even like like I mean, how do you go how do how does it go like so fast? Like what how do you I guess keep track of like how And how did these people who are working on in the in this field, how did they like adapt to those changes like so so fast?
**金·戈登**: 一些人适应了，一些人没有。想想零售商，比如**Sam the Record Man**，我们最著名的加拿大本土唱片店，它们没有撑过去。尽管他们尽力了，比如他们推出了 Sam CD，在线销售 CD，甚至雇佣记者为他们的网站撰稿。他们尝试了很多，但最终还是失败了。人们与实体音乐的整个关系确实改变了，尤其是在 Napster 出现之后。你可以在 Sam the Record Man、HMV 或 Music World 花钱买一张 12 首歌的 CD，或者你可以去 Napster，基本上花 0 美元就能拥有所有音乐。对很多乐迷来说，这是一个简单的决定。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: >> Well, I mean, that's the thing. Some people did adapt to the changes, some people did not. So, I mean, you know, we go back to the retailers. Um, you know, Sam the Record Man probably our most famous, you know, Canadian born and bred record store. They They didn't survive it. I mean, they tried it to their credit. They tried a lot of things. You know, they had a Sam CD. They were selling CDs online. They were even hiring like journalists to write for their website, too. So, they gave it a shot, but I mean, you know, people's entire relationship with physical music changed certainly when Napster came in and all of a sudden, well, you could go to Sam the Record Man or HMV or Music World and buy a CD um you know, 12 tracks or you can go to Napster and for cheaper, basically $0, you can have all the music.
**采访者**: 是的。你知道，对很多乐迷来说，这真是一个令人难过的简单决定。但他们后来意识到，Napster 和 iPod、iTunes 带来的巨大转变，实际上持续的时间都很短。
Original English **Interviewer**: >> Yeah. You know, for a lot of music fans um sadly it was an easy decision, but one of the things they realized is then it really like hit home writing the book is you have these like really huge shifts caused by Napster and the iPod and iTunes and whatnot, but they were all like really short-lived at the same time.
**金·戈登**: 嗯。我写这本书之前，从未真正思考过 iPod 的生命周期有多短。它的全盛时期可能只有 6 到 7 年。而且它也经历了不同的变化，有 iPod、Nano、iTouch，各种不同类型的 iPod。但确实，它没有持续太久。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Mhm. Um I don't think I'd really thought about how short-lived the iPod was until I started writing this. It was like its heyday was maybe 6 or 7 years for like a device. I mean, it it's And went through different changes, too, right? I mean, there was the iPod, there was the Nano, there was the iTouch. Like it was all these different like types of iPod. But yeah, you're right. It wasn't that
**采访者**: 是的，它很快就被淘汰了。我认为自从第一代 iPhone 问世后，情况就改变了。因为突然之间，你有了另一个设备。它不仅在外观和功能上像 iPod，同时也是你的手机。从那时起，iPod 和 MP3 播放器的时代就宣告结束了。
Original English **Interviewer**: >> That's right. Yeah, like it didn't I I think really, you know, that changed as soon as like the first iPhone came out cuz all of a sudden you've got this other device. Not only does it kind of look like and function like an iPod, it's also your phone, too. And from there, I mean, you know, that was that was the signal of like the beginning of the end for iPods and MP3 players, too.
**金·戈登**: 我知道微软推出了 **Zune**，你可能还记得，到了最后，它就像一个**U盘**，上面有一个耳机插孔，就是一个 MP3 播放器。而且，人们的习惯，或者至少是他们与音乐的联系，也发生了变化，对吧？因为我认为曾有一种强烈的“**所有权**”感。你想要拥有歌曲，首先是在专辑形式上，然后是下载。但现在，只是**流媒体**，你不再需要真正拥有这首歌了。我觉得这种变化也很有趣。你怎么看？
Original English **Kim Gordon**: I mean, I know Microsoft came out with the Zune and you know, you you might recall at the end you would just have like almost like a thumb drive and it would have like a little port for head phones and it's an MP3 player. But and also I guess people's habits and or at least their connection to music kind of changed, too, right? Because I think there was like a real sense of like ownership. You wanted to own the songs like first on an album form and then like downloading it, but now it's just streaming and you don't have to actually own the song anymore. I I thought I find that change to be interesting as well. Like what what do you think of that?
**金·戈登**: 是的，绝对。我们可以称之为 **MP3 时代**。同样，这是 **iTunes** 和 **MP3 博客**以及博客聚合器，比如**Hype Machine**的时代，还有**Pitchfork Media**这样的影响力媒体。这是一个有趣的中间地带，因为 MP3 在技术上仍然是你拥有的东西。你无法像 CD 那样握在手里，但它们存储在你的硬盘上。你可以在 iTunes 上购买它们，或者从 Napster 上试听一些（我想时效性已经过了，你承认你用过）。或者，MP3 博客的一个很棒之处在于，其中一些（比如**Chrome Waves**和**Said the Gramophone**）是加拿大制造的。你会得到几首 MP3，它们都存储在你的硬盘上，然后你在 iTunes 里进行整理。所以，仍然有一种所有权的感觉，因为我为它付了钱，或者我付出了努力去获取它。而现在，很多人根本不拥有任何音乐。即使他们曾经有 CD 和唱片、磁带，现在可能都扔掉了，因为一切都在 Spotify 上了。那么，这又说明了什么关于我们与音乐的关系呢？对我来说，作为一个经历过所有这些变化的人，感觉**音乐变得更加短暂易逝**了。这不仅仅是音乐，也包括摄影。我们过去会冲洗照片，现在每个人都有成千上万的照片。虽然这在某种程度上很棒，但当你拥有成千上万张照片时，它们都变得有些空洞、没有意义了。音乐也是如此，它如此短暂易逝。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, call it the MP3 era. And again, this is a time of iTunes and MP3 blogs and blog aggregators like you know, Hype Machine and then the influence machine of uh you know, Pitchfork Media and whatnot. It was an interesting middle ground because MP3s still technically were something you owned. You They couldn't hold in your hand like you would a a CD, but they lived on your hard drive. You know, you would buy them on iTunes or you would perhaps sample a few from uh Napster. I think statute of limitations is off on that. You admitted that you used it, too. Or, you know, it was one of the great things about MP3 blogs and some of them were like made in Canada, too, like Chrome Waves and Said the Gramophone. You know, you get a few MP3s here, but they all live on your hard drive and then, you know, you're curating in iTunes. So, it's still there's still a sense of ownership cuz either I paid for this or I made the effort to get it perhaps through some other means. And now like a lot of people don't own any music, you know, even if they had CDs and records and cassettes, perhaps they've like gotten rid of those cuz it's all on Spotify now. So, you know, what does that say for our relationship with music? I mean, to me and again, as someone who's been, you know, been through like all these different changes, it to me it seems a lot more fleeting. Mhm. And that's not that's not just music. That's also like photography, for example. You know, we used to print out photos and now, you know, everybody's got thousands and thousands and thousands of photos. So, while that's amazing on some in some ways, you know, when otherwise they're when you have a thousand like they're all kind of meaningless. And and that's kind of like one of the worries about music, too, is the fact that it's so fleeting um and it can all just like go away like, you know, this idea of like uh tech rot and like digital decay is like a big theme in the book, too. And even though this, you know, a platform like Spotify seems like, you know, untouchable um I personally, you know, if it went away in 10 years or 5 years, it wouldn't shock me. I mean, a lot of things change. We've seen this. I mean, pretty much everything I wrote in the book is gone.
**采访者**: 但是黑胶唱片正在回归。
Original English **Interviewer**: So, But vinyl's coming back.
**金·戈登**: 嗯，是的，但对很多人来说，它更像是一种**收藏品**。我们甚至在很多**复古技术**上看到了这种趋势。有些人说：“哦，黑莓手机又要回来了”，或者“翻盖手机”。但我认为这更多的是一种象征，或者说是一种“虚假的图腾”，而不是真正有实用性的东西，因为它无法与互联网的运作方式兼容。它有美学价值，也有怀旧价值，但科技变革的步伐从未停止。书中内容，即使听起来不像是很久以前的事情，但考虑到自本书写成以来发生了多少变化，很多技术感觉就像是一个世纪前的东西了。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Well, that I mean, that's yeah, but that's yeah, that's like but that's almost more like a for a lot of people like a collectible. Yeah. Um we're seeing this even with like a lot of retro technology. There's been a lot where you know, oh well, the BlackBerry's coming back or the flip phone, but I think it's almost more like a symbol or like a almost like a false icon of something rather than something that's like utility cuz it's just it doesn't like function with, you know, the way the internet works. It's, you know, I think it's there's an aesthetic value and there's a nostalgia value, but you know, the pace of technological change just does not stop. And like a lot of the technology, even though this doesn't seem that long ago, a lot of what's in the book. I mean, this could have been for all intents and purposes like century ago given how much has changed even since I wrote the book.
### 音乐博客与 Hype Machine 的时代 **采访者**: 你提到了 Chrome Waves。这是一个音乐博客，对吧？在 2000 年代中期，如果你是一个年轻人，想表达自己的声音，它似乎是这样的途径。我自己也和朋友一起办过一个叫 The Dashing Fellows 的博客，它现在已经不存在了。你能聊聊 Chrome Waves 是什么，以及那个时期音乐博客有多重要吗？
Original English **Interviewer**: Uh you mentioned Chrome Waves. This was a music blog, right? >> Yes. Um that seemed like the way if you were a young guy, young person in the mid-aughts to get your voice out there. I had one with some friends, The Dashing Fellows. I'm going to shout them out. Sure, yeah. It it now no longer exists. Hey, shoot your shot. >> Yeah, exactly. But uh what was Chrome Waves and what and how important were music blogs to that period?
**金·戈登**: 音乐博客非常重要。Chrome Waves 是由**Frank Yang**运营的，基本上是一个**一人工作室**。他是一个音乐爱好者，喜欢写作、看演出、摄影。他把这一切都放到了网上。我和 Frank 聊过，我问他，博客什么时候能与传统媒体达到同等地位？什么时候他开始收到音乐评论稿，或者获得演出采访证、在摄影区拍照的机会？这种情况发生得相当快。他讲述的故事，以及其他一些博主，他们会被邀请参加各种宣传活动，或者 Frank 会去芝加哥参加 Lollapalooza，或者去奥斯汀参加 South by Southwest。很快，不仅是他，还有一代又一代的音乐博主，比如 **Brooklyn Vegan**、**Pitchfork Media**、**Gorilla vs. Bear**，数不胜数。但 Chrome Waves 和**Sean Michaels**运营的 **Said the Gramophone** 的一个伟大之处在于，它们虽然植根于加拿大，却在全球范围内享有盛誉。**博客聚合器**的影响也不容小觑。我用过一个叫**Hype Machine**的。这就像是 RSS 订阅，又有点像**Twitter 时间线**，它能提供一个快照，展示最新的博客更新。Hype Machine 专注于 MP3，提供源源不断的免费下载 MP3。这些就像是新声音的小样本，你可以尝试一下。当时人们还在购买 CD，但又不像以前那样了，同时 iTunes 也已经存在。所以，我认为“博客年”这个时期很有趣，它发生在大约**社交媒体**全面接管之前。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Music blogs were hugely important. So, Chrome Waves was run by a guy named Frank Yang. It was generally a one-person operation. It was all Frank and he was, you know, he was just a music fan who enjoyed writing. He enjoyed going to shows. He enjoyed photography. He's like, I'm going to put this all online. And and speaking to Frank for the book, um one of the first things I found really interesting talking to him at what point did like blogs go become on like an even footing with, you know, traditional media outlets. So, like at what point did he start getting sent music to review or at what point did he start getting access to, you know, press passes or, you know, something in the photo pit so he could take photos and whatnot. And it did happen pretty quickly where all of a sudden, you know, he told stories and and some of the other bloggers, you know, they're getting flown on junkets or, you know, Frank was down at like Lollapalooza in Chicago or he'd go down to South by Southwest in Austin. And very quickly, not just him, but a generation of like all these different music blogs. So, like the Brooklyn Vegan, Pitchfork Media, um Gorilla vs. Bear, they were there there was a million of them. But one of the great things about Chrome Waves and also Said the Gramophone run by Sean Michaels um is that they were, you know, they were based in Canada, but these were these were like globally famous. Um it it really can't be undersold also that the impact of uh blog aggregators is well. I know the one that I used was something called the Hype Machine. You know, this was a version of it's it's a big it's another big theme of the book. Everything's a version of everything else. So, you know, blog aggregators they were kind of like an RSS feed, but they were kind of almost like a Twitter timeline and they would be able to, you know, here's like a just a snapshot. Here's the latest blogs that have updated. And and one of the great things about Hype Machine, it was strictly focused on MP3s, too. So, it would be the steady stream of just, you know, free downloadable MP3s. It would just be like these little samples of all these new um you know, all these new sounds. You could just like have a bit of piece, you know, a give it a little try. And it was it was also the time people still were kind of buying CDs, but also not really, but also like iTunes was around. So, I think one of the interesting things about, you know, that time in what we call like the blog year is starting really when Chrome Waves um was really popping. It was also like right before social media took over. So, yes, Facebook and YouTube and Twitter, they were around, but they were really just figuring themselves out. Really like the powerhouse at that point was MySpace.
**采访者**: Frank 决定停止运营，对吗？他不想再做了？
Original English **Interviewer**: Um you talk about, you know, another uh technology that had a very short shelf life, but huge impact while it was around. MySpace was huge and really predicted what came later with, you know, Facebook and TikTok and Snapchat and all these other platforms. He decided Frank decided to just pull the plug, right? Like he just he didn't want to do it anymore?
**金·戈登**: 是的，是的。大概在 2013 年，他觉得“世界已经改变了”。他认为，一方面，人们会成长，兴趣会转移。另一方面，**网站流量**发生了巨大变化。突然之间，所有人都涌入了 Facebook，那些原本可能在邮件列表、博客评论区或 Hype Machine 上进行的对话，都转移到了 Facebook 等平台。所以，他决定去做别的事情。从历史角度看，2013 年这个时间点似乎很对。他可能那时候就该收尾了。因为，互联网已经不同了。我从 2015 年开始在**Twitter**工作，我简直不敢相信这离本书的范围有多远，因为我看到了一些行为，从 Twitter 内部来看，人们与名人、粉丝社区和对话的关系，与我在 AOL 聊天室、Yahoo! 群组，甚至 Friendster 和 MySpace 上看到的非常相似。至今，互联网上的一切都像是某种事物的“版本”。但是，正如我所说，短短几年内可以发生巨大的变化，那些看似牢不可破的平台，可能一夜之间就消失了。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Yeah, yeah. Like 2013, he's like, you know, the the world has changed. Um you know, he He said partially it's just people grow up, they get out of their interests. Um but you know, there's also just like web track traffic. All of a sudden everyone's on Facebook and people those conversations that might have been happening, you know, on mailing lists or in blog comment sections or, you know, that traffic that might have come from the Hype Machine, it's all shifted over to Facebook and other platforms. Um so, he's just like, I'm going to go do something else for a while. And it, you know, it it's historically 2013, that seems about right. You know, he probably should have wrapped it up then and cuz again, the internet was different. And, you know, I worked at Twitter from starting in 2015 and I just can't believe it's so far outside the scope of the book cuz I was telling them like the bit a lot of behaviors you saw from the inside of Twitter in terms of people's relationship with celebrity and fan communities and conversation, it's so similar to what I saw in like AOL chat rooms or Yahoo Groups um or even like Friendster and, you know, MySpace. Everything is kind of a version of everything else on the internet to this day. Um but again, like so much can change in a few short years and the platforms that seem, you know, untouchable one day are gone the next.
**金·戈登**: 书中提到了很多音乐方面的内容，比如很多那时期的**VJ（视频音乐节目主持人）**，现在他们基本上都转向了 **YouTube**，就像是他们迁移过去了。我认为这很有趣，他们是怎么做到的。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: It actually yeah, I mean, something I picked up in the book was like and we haven't talked about much music, but I mean, a lot of those kind of personalities, the VJs we see it like you mentioned in the book, they they kind of are now YouTube. They just kind of migrated. Like that I thought that was really interesting like that kind of how that happened.
**金·戈登**: 是的。**MuchMusic**是一个有趣的例子，因为整个**Chum 帝国**，无论是 MuchMusic、The New Music，还是 CityTV 或 Fashion Television，都是**Moses Znaimer**旗下的产业。他们在媒体变革方面非常超前。他们也做了很多互联网上的事情，但同时，他们也属于**传统媒体**。他们拥有大量基础设施，有演播室，有很多员工，包括行政人员。而这就是与互联网相关的所有事情的一个挑战。好了，它在这里。你拥有“旧世界”的所有基础设施。但与此同时，有人在他的卧室或电脑房里，可以通过一台机器，在互联网上做同样的事情，而你则需要整个办公楼。最终，这变成了一个**规模经济**的问题。这就是为什么我们看到亚马逊、谷歌、Facebook 等公司崛起。所以，它的改变并不令人意外，关键在于哪些公司能够适应，哪些不能。有很多公司尝试过，但最终未能适应，因为他们过于沉迷于那个旧世界。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Yeah, yeah. And MuchMusic is an interesting one because, you know, the whole Chum empire, whether it's MuchMusic or The New Music or CityTV or Fashion Television, like take your pick, all the Moses Znaimer um properties, they were so ahead of the curve in terms of, you know, how media was changing, but and to their credit, they did a lot of things on the internet, but at the same time, they were part of the legacy media. They had a lot of infrastructure, you know, they had they had studios, they had big, you know, they had a lot of staff, they had administrative staff and that's one of the challenges with like all things to do with the internet. So, okay, it's here. You've got all this infrastructure of like, you know, the world before. Meanwhile, there's someone in their bedroom or someone in their computer room, they can kind of do the same thing on the internet through one machine to what you can do with this entire office building. And at some point, you know, it just becomes like an economy of scale and that's why, you know, we saw the ascent of all these other companies, Amazon and Google and Facebook and take your pick, too. So, like it's it's not surprising it changed. It's just a matter of which kind of companies could adapt and which couldn't and there there were a lot you know, they they tried but they could not adapt cuz there was there was they were they were too much stuck in that old world.
### AI 时代与音乐的未来 **采访者**: 我们需要结束对话了，但我们现在身处**人工智能 (AI)** 的新时代，它正在颠覆互联网、音乐产业等等。我不知道你是否会做预测，但你对未来走向有什么看法吗？
Original English **Interviewer**: We have to wrap up our conversation, but I guess as we're, you know, we're in this new era now of artificial intelligence, AI, and it's sort of disrupting the internet, music industry, what have you. I don't know if you make predictions, but do you have an a sense of as to where this is going?
**金·戈登**: 天哪，我不知道。如果我知道，我可能会有另一份职业。我真的不认为有人知道它会走向何方。我认为我们或许能在细节和某些角落做出预测，但我不知道。有一件事我想说的是，一个**一切都将是完全自动化名人**的未来，不会让我感到惊讶。我们已经有了动画，我们一直有“假乐队”，比如**The Archies**，或者像 **Daft Punk** 或 **Gorillaz**，不一而足。这些都有先例。我认为还有其他一些线索，不一定与技术直接相关，但它们预示着我们与艺术家关系将如何改变。很多乐队在出售他们的**音乐版权**。不仅是老牌艺术家，还有像**Justin Bieber**和**Imagine Dragons**这样的年轻艺术家。同时，我也认为，一些老牌乐队从未像现在这样受欢迎。我总是想起**Queen**乐队。Queen 似乎从未如此受欢迎，而且他们已经有 30 年没有活跃了，因为他们有了传记电影、音乐剧和商品等等。所以，我认为“**艺术家即品牌**”将真正改变格局。然后，对于新艺术家来说，未来会是**人类与机器**争夺排行榜榜首吗？我认为我们会看到某种形式的出现。我不知道具体会是什么样子，也不知道什么时候会发生，但我确实认为不久的将来，某种形式的现实就会出现。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: I God, I I I would probably have a different career if I did. I I don't I don't honestly, I don't think anybody knows where it's going. I think, you know, we can probably predict like in the margins and some corners, but I don't know. Like one thing I would say is, you know, a future where everything is like a completely automated form of celebrity would not surprise me at all. Like, you know, we've had animation for a long time, you know, we've had we've had like fake bands for forever, you know, whether it's like The Archies or even, you know, someone like Daft Punk or, you know, Gorillaz, take your pick. Mhm. There is some precedents for this and I think also there's other like little clues that aren't necessarily about technology, but I think speak to how our relationship with artists is going to change. Like a lot of bands selling off their back catalogs. And not just like legacy artists, like younger artists like Justin Bieber and Imagine Dragons. I also think, you know, there's but then there's also these legacy bands have never been more popular. I always think of Queen. Like Queen seems like they've never been more popular and have not been active for 30 years because well, but they've had biopics and they've had musicals and they've had merchandise and whatnot. So, I think like artists as brands is really going to change and then in terms of new artists, is it going to be the humans versus the machines to see who can get to the top of the charts? I think we will see a version of that. I don't know exactly what it will look like and when it will happen, but I do think there's going to be a future soon um where a version of that reality is here.
**金·戈登**: 我觉得我们可能已经处在其中了。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: I feel like we may already be here.
**采访者**: 这是一个很好的结束点。金·戈登，非常感谢你来到节目。
Original English **Interviewer**: That's a good place to leave it. Kim Gordon, thank you so much for joining us on the rundown.
**金·戈登**: 谢谢。
Original English **Kim Gordon**: Thank you.