--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-11-11' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii2VPmhbSP4 speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - cult-psychology - romantic-relationship - manipulation - trauma-recovery title: 超模男友背后的邪教秘密与三十年情感纠葛 summary: 超模霍伊·理查兹与唐娜·弗拉格在经历30年分分合合后终成眷属。理查兹曾深陷名为Eternal Values的邪教组织，该组织禁止浪漫关系并灌输世界末日论。理查兹因这段感情产生动摇并脱离组织，最终向弗拉格坦白真相并重修旧好。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: psychology area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Hoyt Richards - Donna Flagg companies_orgs: - Eternal Values products_models: [] media_books: - Modern Love status: evergreen --- >> 现在去爱，然后坠入爱河。这就是我爱的全部。
Original English >> Love now and you fall in love. That's all I love.
>> 爱比任何事物都更强大。
Original English >> Love was stronger than anything.
>> 为了爱本身。
Original English >> For the love of love.
>> 我爱你胜过一切。
Original English >> And I love you more than anything.
>> 你依然是爱。
Original English >> You're still love.
### 初识与神秘消失 >> 这里是《纽约时报》播客，我是安娜·马丁。这是《现代爱情》（Modern Love），今天我将与一对新婚夫妇唐娜·弗拉格（Donna Flagg）和霍伊·理查兹（Hoy Richards）对话。好的，尽管他们刚刚结婚，但唐娜和霍伊已经相识30多年，并且此前曾尝试交往过。问题是，在他们第一次开始认真恋爱时，霍伊做了一件深深伤害唐娜的事。有一天，他突然人间蒸发了。唐娜再也没有他的音讯。他离开了。当时唐娜在一家百货公司工作，而霍伊恰好是一名超级男模，这意味着到处都能看到他的面孔。所以尽管他玩失踪，她却根本避不开他。唐娜当时愤怒极了。但多年后，唐娜接到了一个电话，得知了霍伊一直瞒着她的一个巨大而痛苦的秘密：他曾经深陷一个邪教组织，他想让她知道到底发生了什么。今天，霍伊向我讲述了他对唐娜的爱如何让他意识到自己身陷何处，并推动他逃离。而唐娜也解释了为什么在30年后，她决定嫁给他。
Original English >> From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love and today I'm talking to a pair of newlyweds, Donna Flag and Hoy Richards. Okay, so even though they just got married, Donna and Hoy have known each other for more than 30 years and they've tried to be in a relationship before. The thing is, the first time they were getting serious, Hoy did something that really hurt Donna. One day he just disappeared. Donna stopped hearing from him. He was gone. At the time, Donna worked in a department store and Hoy just so happened to be a supermodel, which meant his image was everywhere. So even though he ghosted her, she could not get away from him. Donna was furious. But years later, Donna would get a phone call and she would learn about a huge, painful secret Hoy had been keeping from her. He had been in a cult and he wanted her to know what happened. Today, Hoy tells me how his love for Donna led him to realize exactly what he was involved with and gave him the push to escape. And Don explains why 30 years later, she decided to marry him.
>> 唐娜·弗拉格、霍伊·理查兹，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Original English >> Donna Flag Hoy Richards, welcome to Modern Love.
>> 谢谢你。
Original English >> Thank you.
>> 谢谢你邀请我们。
Original English >> Thank you for having us.
>> 我们来聊聊你们的第一次约会。1994年，对吗？唐娜，在你遇到霍伊的时候，你的生活状态是怎样的？
Original English >> Let's talk about your very first date. 1994, correct? Donna, around the time you met Hoy, what was happening in your life?
>> 当时我刚离婚不久，有了新公寓，带着两只小吉娃娃住在这里。
Original English >> So, I had just been divorced, had a new apartment, was here with my two little Chihuahua. And
>> 那时你多大？
Original English >> And you were how old?
>> 28岁。
Original English >> 28.
>> 很好。
Original English >> Cool.
>> 我高中时的朋友名叫莫（Mo），我飞去加州看他，打算度个长周末。
Original English >> And so my high school friend, his name is Mo, I went out to see him in California to do a long weekend.
>> 我朋友莫是一名制片人。嗯。
Original English >> And my friend Mo was a producer. Hm.
>> 他对我说：“好了，唐，我们要去吃午饭。去这家费城牛肉芝士三明治店吧。”我心想：“好啊，挺棒的。”当时我穿着比基尼上衣，头发也油油的。我们走到一半时，他说：“哦，我们要去见世界上第一位超级男模。”我说：“不，我们才不去呢。”我说：“这不好。”我说：“带我回家，让我换身衣服。”所以……
Original English >> And he says to me, "Okay, Don, we're going to go and grab some lunch. Let's go to this Philly cheese steak place." I'm like, "All right, cool. Great." Get up like bikini top on, greasy hair. And when we're halfway there, he says, "Oh, and we're going to be meeting the first male supermodel in the world." And I'm like, "No, we're not." I'm like, "That's not cool." I go, "Put take me home and let me put some clothes on." So,
>> 让我穿件衬衫。
Original English >> let me put on the shirt.
>> 总之，我们到了那里，我坐在那儿吃薯条，他们俩在聊生意，然后……
Original English >> Anyway, we get, you know, I'm sitting there eating French fries and then they're talking business and um
>> 等等，让我感受一下那个场景。所以你穿上了衬衫什么的，尽可能收拾了一下，涂了点唇蜜。
Original English >> Oh, wait. So wait, bring me into it. So you put your shirt on or whatever. You up as much as you can dress a little lip gloss.
>> 是的，这就起作用了。
Original English >> Yeah, there you go. That that's that does the charm.
>> 他们点了一扎啤酒，我还记得霍伊。他当时非常……我不知道，“精明”这个词不对，但他身上有一种非常温柔的气质。
Original English >> They order a picture of beer and I remember Hoy. He was just very I don't cunning is not the right word, but there was just something very sweet.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 关于他……
Original English >> About him
>> 并且很柔和……
Original English >> and soft
>> 但同时也带着点野性，我想说是既温柔又性感。午餐快结束时，我静静坐着，他可以讲讲他的印象，但他问我：“唐娜，你住在哪里？”
Original English >> but also spicy, you know, like I would say sweet and sexy at the same time. And so towards the end of the lunch, I was sitting quietly and he can speak to his impression, but he said, "So, Donna, where do you live?"
>> 我说：“纽约。”他说：“哦，我在纽约有个住处。我也住在那里。”我说：“哦。”然后他问：“你是做什么工作的？”我说：“我在巴尼斯纽约百货（Barneys New York）工作。”他说：“哦，我给巴尼斯纽约拍过广告。”我说：“哦，挺酷的。”然后我们就离开了。后来我回到家，在巴尼斯百货的卖场上班。我的一个员工对我说：“唐妮，有你的电话。”我说：“好的。”我走过去在卖场接起电话，是莫打来的。他说：“听着，宝贝。那个超级名模想要你的电话号码。”我说：“别拿这家伙开玩笑了，算了吧。我知道我单身，但这不是撮合的方式。”他说：“我可没开玩笑。”
Original English >> And I said, "In New York." And he said, "Oh, I um I have a place in New York. You know, I live there." And I said, "Oh." And he said, "Oh, I" and he said, "What do you do?" I said, "I work for Barney New York." And he said, "Oh, I did a campaign for Barney New York." I'm like, "Oh, cool." And then we left. So then I go home. I'm working at Barney's on the selling floor. One of the people that was on my staff said, "Donnie, you have a phone call." I'm like, "Okay." So, I go, I'm on the selling floor. And I pick up the phone and it's Mo. And he's like, "Listen. Hey, baby." He says, "Hey, listen. The supermodel wants your phone number." And I'm like, "Stop with this guy. Stop it. I know I'm single, but this is not the way to do this." And he said, "I'm not [ __ ] around."
>> 现在我们来问问你，霍伊。告诉我，当你走进那家费城三明治店时，唐娜身上有什么吸引了你？
Original English >> And now we're going to go to you, Hoy. Tell me when you walked into this Philly cheese steak place, what struck you about Donna?
>> 她很漂亮，而且她身上有一种非常脚踏实地、非常真实的特质，这让我很着迷。而且她似乎对我有什么背景完全不以为意，那对她来说似乎并不算什么……
Original English >> Well, I mean, she's beautiful and there was something very grounded and very authentic about her, which I was intrigued about. And she also did not seem at all impressed with whatever my background was. That did not seem to be something that
>> 从这个角度来说，这令人耳目一新。
Original English >> and that was refreshing in that sense.
>> 是的，我很感兴趣，我想如果她愿意的话，能多了解她会很不错。所以我就打听了一下，看看是否有这种可能性。我说我马上要回城里了——我想那时我还在欧洲——我说我要回纽约一趟，很想看看她是否有空一起吃晚饭。
Original English >> So yeah, I was intrigued and I just thought, well, it would be nice to get to know this person if she would be open to that. And so I just inquired to see if that um would be a possibility. And uh I just said, I'm I'm coming back into town. I think at that point I was still in Europe um that I was saying I was swinging back through New York and I'd love to see if um she'd be available for dinner.
>> 那顿晚餐怎么样？你们之间的默契如何？只有你们两个人时是什么感觉？
Original English >> How was that dinner? How was your connection? What was it like when it was just the two of you?
>> 我只记得当时心想：“靠，他真是个非常棒的人。”我们聊了……
Original English >> I just remember being like, "Oh [ __ ] he's a really nice guy." And we talked,
>> 聊了好几个小时。
Original English >> oh [ __ ] for hours.
>> 我脑海中浮现的一个词是“毫不费力”。
Original English >> I would The word that comes to mind is effortless.
>> 我不知道该怎么形容。我和她在一起感到无比舒适，我觉得对话展开的方式非常自然顺畅。所以那是一种令人兴奋的耳目一新。现在你可以告诉我那次对话里有没有提到，但我感觉当时谈到了她并没有真正打算寻找一段认真的恋爱关系，而我也没有，因为我经常到处旅行。所以我不确定是不是在当时那次谈话中聊到的？
Original English >> Like uh I didn't I don't know. I felt incredibly comfortable with Anna and I felt the way the conversation unfolded felt fairly very natural and organic. Um, so it was just it was refreshing in a really exciting way. Now you can tell me whether it happened in this conversation or not, but I do feel like what was covered was that she wasn't really looking for a serious relationship which and neither was I cuz I was traveling a lot. So I don't I don't know was it in that conversation?
>> 我觉得不是在那时。
Original English >> I don't think it was I I don't think it was then.
>> 我们可以顺着你们的几次约会继续看。
Original English >> We can follow you to some you know dates.
>> 是的，那是在相当早期的时候，因为显然我们之间有了这种连接，我觉得宜早不宜迟，我需要说清楚我有自己的界限……
Original English >> Yeah. It was it was fairly early on because there was clearly this connection and I felt sooner than later I needed to make it clear that um you know that I had kind of guard rails
>> 我无法具体解释原因……
Original English >> um and I couldn't explain per se why
>> 但我感受到了这种……
Original English >> but I felt this
>> 这种共鸣。正因如此，我只记得自己当时觉得，如果要继续发展下去，我必须负责任地告诉她这其中是有限制的。
Original English >> this synergy and uh because of that I do just remember thinking if this is going to go anywhere it's going to be with me also being um respons responsible in telling her that it there are limitations involved.
### 亲密港湾与不可说的隐秘 >> 你还记得当时你们在哪里进行这种所谓“明确恋爱关系”（DTR）的谈话吗？不过我很确定你们当时不会用这个词。你还记得发生在哪里吗？
Original English >> Do you remember and it sounds like um sort of where you were when that I'm going to call it a DTR define the relationship conversation, but I'm pretty certain you weren't using those words at the time, but do you remember where that happened?
>> 其实不是那样的。更多的是我觉得女性往往想从他身上得到些什么。他有名气，英俊潇洒，挣很多钱。而我内心的一部分在想，我若是爱上这样一个——虽然我们对这个词有争议，但当时看来——完美的男人……
Original English >> So, it really wasn't like that. M it was more that I felt that women would be women wanted something from him. You know, he had celebrity. He was um beautiful, made a lot of money. And part of it was I'm going to fall in love with like this and we have issues around this word but at the time it was like with this perfect guy
>> 对，他有那么多选择。
Original English >> right like he has access to choices.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 那个人不会是你。所以我记得自己更多是采取了一种防御姿态，说：“听着，我不想从你身上图什么。”
Original English >> And it's not going to be you. M so I do remember more taking kind of like a defensive position and saying like listen I don't want anything from you.
>> 我热爱我的事业。我想自由地做自己的工作。我旅行……
Original English >> I loved my career. I wanted to be free to do my jobs. I travel
>> 我有自己的生活。
Original English >> I got my own thing. Yeah.
>> 你尽管去忙，等你回来我们再见，这样挺棒的。因为我们在一起的时候，感觉太美好了。
Original English >> Totally go. I'll see you when you get back. This is awesome. Right. Because when we were together it was so beautiful.
>> 跟我说说那个部分。跟我讲讲那种共鸣的具体瞬间或记忆。你们在一起时会做什么？你体验到了什么？
Original English >> Tell me about that. Tell me about because I really want to get a sense, you know, of this even a moment, a memory where you felt that kind of synergy. What were you doing together? How did you experience it?
>> 我们在一起做的事基本形成了一种模式，因为他总在路上奔波，对吧？我个人注意到的是，他路过纽约的次数变得越来越频繁。他到了之后安顿下来，我会接到一个很随意的电话：“嘿，我路过纽约，想知道你这周有没有时间吃晚餐。”接着就变成了“我刚到公寓”，然后又变成了“我刚到机场”，再后来就变成“我已经降落在跑道上了”。
Original English >> Well, what we did together was pretty much a pattern cuz he was on the road, right, all the time. So, what what I noticed personally was that those trips through New York became more frequent. You know, he'd get in, he'd get settled, I'd get a really like a cash call like, "Hey, I'm in New York passing through. Wonder if you had a time this week to have dinner." And Okay. And then it was uh I just got to the apartment and then it was I just got to the airport and then it was I'm on the tarmac.
>> 等等，所以他打电话给你的时间越来越早。
Original English >> Wait, so it's him calling you sooner and sooner
>> 越来越早，就像“我到了”。是的。
Original English >> sooner like I'm here like Yeah.
>> 你接到电话说霍伊到城里了，你们聚在一起。你们会做什么？
Original English >> You get a call that Hoy is in town and you guys get together. What do you What do you do?
>> 他会来接我，然后我们去某个地方吃晚餐，聊啊聊啊聊。然后我们通常会回我的公寓，偶尔去他那里，但主要在我那儿。我有个壁炉，我们会放音乐，生起火，脱掉衣服，和吉娃娃一起裹着毛毯躺在地板上，不停地聊天。我们彼此抚摸、感受、探索……
Original English >> So he would pick me up and we would go somewhere for dinner and talk and talk and talk. Then we would usually go back to my apartment, sometimes his, but mostly mine. I had a fireplace. And uh you know we would make we would turn on music, we would light the fire, we would get naked, we would lay on the floor in the fuzzy blankets with the Chihuahua and the talk and talk and talk and talk and just like we touched and we felt and we explored and
>> 我感到无比幸福。
Original English >> it was just, you know, again, I'm as I couldn't be happier.
>> 这正是我所需要的。在其中一个时刻我对他说：“我不想出去做这做那，这就是我热爱的。”他说他同意，他说这就像一颗珍贵的宝石。我们在一起时的这个空间、这个避风港，只属于我们两人，如此亲密、安静、肉体相贴，他说这就像一颗宝石，而我一直都是这种感觉。所以无论是一个月一次还是两个月一次，只要聚在一起就是那样。
Original English >> Like I it's it's what I needed. Um, and at one point I said to him in one of those moments I said this is just I get we were talking I think about like I don't want to go out and do all these things. This is what I love. And he said this is he said I agree. This is like a precious gem. Like what this space this this enclave that we are when we're together to just the two of us intimately quietly physically. um he just said was like a precious gem and I always always felt that way. So it didn't matter if it was once a month or once every two months. It was that
>> 你描绘了一幅非常美丽的画面，你们两人独处时创造的世界如同宝石一般。唐娜，我刚才问了你相遇并开始这段关系时你的生活状态。但霍伊，你在暗中经历着一切，我想现在聊聊这个。当你遇到唐娜时，你的生活正在发生什么？
Original English >> you're painting this really beautiful picture the gem of your world that you create when it's just the two of you. And you know Don I asked you what was happening in your life at the time that you met and began this relationship. But Hoy were referencing everything that's going on sort of behind the curtain as it were for you. And I want to talk about that now. when you met Donna, what was happening in your life?
### 邪教“Eternal Values”与末日阴影 >> 是的。在我生命的那段时期，我是“永恒价值”（Eternal Values）这个团体的成员。我原以为那是一个美好的精神组织，但后来我才发现它实际上是一个邪教。
Original English >> Yeah. So, uh, at that point in my life, I was part of this group, Eternal Values, which I thought was this wonderful spiritual organization, but I found out later it really was a cult.
>> 霍伊，我想弄明白你是怎么卷入这一切的。Eternal Values究竟是什么？你是怎么加入进去的？
Original English >> Hoy, I want to understand how you got involved in all this. What was Eternal Values? How did you get into it?
>> 好的。我16岁时在楠塔基特的沙滩上遇到了一个叫弗雷迪（Freddy）的男人。他来自纽约，热衷于东方哲学、占星术和古代文明之类的东西。我对这些很好奇，但我未必会跟其他16岁的朋友聊这些。当时我16岁，并不真正知道自己人生想做什么。我没有激情，没有目标。所以我当时觉得，这个人对自己的人生规划充满热情，听起来肯定比我毫无计划要好得多。事情就是这样开始的。
Original English >> All right. So when I was 16, I met this guy uh on the beach on Nantucket, this guy Freddy who was from New York and was into Eastern philosophy and astrology and kind of ancient civilizations, you know, things that that I had a curiosity about, but I wouldn't necessarily talk to my other 16-year-old buddies about. So yeah, I was 16. I um I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't have a passion. I didn't have a purpose. So my impression was here's this person who's really excited about their game plan and certainly uh sounds a lot better than my no plan. So that's how it really began.
>> 那么到了你和唐娜交往的时候……
Original English >> So by the time you're seeing Donna
>> 嗯。
Original English >> Mhm.
>> Eternal Values在你生活中扮演着怎样的角色？
Original English >> what's the role of eternal values in your life?
>> 那时千禧年即将到来。邪教头目曾给过我们一个时间表，但后来头目死了，团体发生了分裂。当时有一个我所追随的派系，我想你可以把我们归为虔诚笃信者那一类，我们自认为是在延续弗雷迪的遗产。当时距离那个末日预言只剩一年了，2000年就是千禧年。
Original English >> Well, at that point the um the millennium was approaching. So uh there had been this timeline that the cult leader had given us and the leader had died. The group had fractured. There was a contingent that I lined with. I guess you would put us more under the kind of true believers of you know we were holding you holding the torch to Freddy's legacy so to speak. And at this point you know we're a year away from you know D-Day. you know, when this doomsday Yeah. 2000 was going to be the millennium.
>> 按照预言，在此之前会有各种风暴、飓风和地震。当时我们在北卡罗来纳州开发一处地产，那原本将是地球发生剧变时的避难所和安全之所。
Original English >> And there were supposed to be all these storms and hurricanes and earthquakes leading up to it. And at that point, we had been developing this property down in North Carolina, which was going to be kind of the getaway in the safe place when the when all the the the earth changes were going to happen.
>> 当然。在谈论那段时期之前，这很难启齿，因为它太荒唐了，但……
Original English >> Sure. And within that period before, it's so hard to talk about this because it's so crazy, but you know,
>> 我很感激你能讲出来，因为在当时那是你的现实。
Original English >> I appreciate you going there because this was your reality at the time.
>> 但荒谬之处在于，在世界末日的大背景下，那些风暴都将降临，地球大部分区域都将被摧毁，但我们将被“太空人”（外星人）接走。外星人会训练我们，等地球剧变平息之后，我们会重返地球繁衍后代，成为新时代的领袖。
Original English >> But you know, the the the the ludicrous part of it was within that context of this end of the world doomsday scenario. These storms are all going to be happening. You know, most of the earth is going to get decimated, but we were going to be lifted out by the space people. and um space people were going to train us and then after the earth changes had all kind of stopped. We would go down and and repopulate and you know be leaders of the new age.
>> 你现在说出这些，即便在当下你也觉得难以启齿。我能理解，但这曾是你的真实信仰。令我震惊的是，唐娜，我看着你听他讲这些。你当时完全不知道这些，对吗？
Original English >> I mean it's like you're articulating this and even in this moment you know you're like it's hard to talk about. I understand but it's like all of this was your truth and it just strikes me that Donna I'm looking at you. You're looking at him as he's telling this. You didn't know any of this did you?
>> 在我再次听取你的看法之前，我想弄清楚：Eternal Values对于浪漫关系，特别是与团体之外的人谈恋爱，持什么态度？
Original English >> Yeah. I mean, and let me just be clear before I bring in your perspective again, like, and you sort of touched on this, but what did eternal values say about relationships with romantic relationships, specifically with people outside of the group?
>> 所有与团体之外的人建立的关系都是不被赞许的，因为那会让你偏离灵性道路。弗雷迪从一开始就明确表示，世界上最具破坏性的关系就是浪漫之爱，你唯一应该恋爱的对象是上帝。尤其是在大灾难和地球剧变即将来临的时候，你为什么还要和别人建立亲密关系？为什么还要考虑把孩子带到世界上来？所以当我遇到唐娜时，这完全是不被允许的，我不应该这么做。
Original English >> Well, all relationships outside the group were frowned upon because that would be taking you off your spiritual path. It was very clear from the beginning that Freddy had said the most destructive relationship out there was romantic love. that the only love affair you should have should be with God. And especially at this time when these earth changes and this cataclysm is coming, why would you ever get involved with someone in an intimate way? Why would you consider bringing children into the world? And so, so yeah, when I'm meeting Donna, like that's really frowned upon and I'm not supposed to do that.
### 暗号、内疚与反复的分手 >> 唐娜，霍伊当时背负着这一切，而你对此一无所知。我很好奇，你们花了那么多时间如此亲密地待在一起，你有没有感觉到他隐瞒了什么，或者察觉到某种不安？
Original English >> So, Donna, you know, Hoy is dealing with all of this again. You don't know any of this. I guess I wonder and this the answer to this can be no. I'm just curious. You're spending so much of this as you've described intimate and truly like face so close to face right heartto heart whatever you want to say time with Hoy. Did anything feel I don't know like there was something he wasn't sharing or did you sense some sort of unsettledness or
>> 唯一的一点是他对某些词感到很不自在，比如“想念”——“我想你”和“我爱你”。
Original English >> the only thing I there were certain words he was uncomfortable with like miss I miss you and love you.
>> 哇。
Original English >> Wow.
>> 我只记得曾对他说过：“你心里有很多包袱。”
Original English >> And the only thing I remember ever saying to him was, "You have a lot of hang-ups."
>> 等等，具体是什么意思？比如他不会说“我想你”？
Original English >> Wait, wait, say what you mean. It's like he wouldn't say, "I miss you."
>> 倒不是说我要求过他这么说，但他有时会……
Original English >> Well, it's not like I ever asked him to, but he would he would at one point say his whole thing was
>> 我那时不知道他承受着来自团体的压力……
Original English >> and I didn't know he was getting pressure from the group, but
>> 我猜他内心会有负罪感，所以他觉得必须……
Original English >> I guess he would have guilt trips and so he would feel the need to
>> 说来可笑，我想我对你说过这个。但在团体内部有一种暗号：如果我正在打电话，周围有人让我感到处于危险或出了什么问题……
Original English >> Well, what the It's funny um I think I've told you this, but within the group, a code language was If I was on the phone and there were people around me that um that I was kind of in danger or there was something wrong,
>> 明白。
Original English >> sure,
>> 暗号就是说“我想你”。因为这种感伤脆弱的情感会是一个警报信号，表明我们绝不会说这种话，毕竟我们自认对更高目标有宏大的理解。所以那成了一个信号，说明事情不对劲。
Original English >> the code was to say I miss you because something that kind of weepy and emotion would would be the trigger to say we would never say that because you know we had this grand understanding of you know a higher purpose and all that. So that would be the telltale like something's off.
>> 我当时并不知道这个。
Original English >> So I didn't know that. So she didn't know that.
>> 无论他出于什么理由，说“想念”这个词是他做不出来的。然而他却会对我讲类似这样的话……
Original English >> But I think I whatever justification it was that with the missing the word missing was something he didn't do. But yet he would say things to me like
>> “我无法想象没有你的生活。”
Original English >> uh I can't fathom my life without you.
>> 然后他通常又会加一句：“但我不能维系这段关系。”
Original English >> And then he would usually say but I can't have this relationship.
>> 哇。
Original English >> Wow.
>> 但接着他又会打电话给我说：“我已经在跑道上了。”
Original English >> But then he would call me and be like I you know he's like I'm on the tarmac
>> 差不多就是这样。
Original English >> pretty much.
>> 是的。因为我感到非常内疚，因为我瞒着她很多事。情况很复杂。
Original English >> Yeah. Because this is the thing I I had um I was had a lot of guilt because I wasn't telling her everything. Complicated. So
>> 有好几次——唐娜可以作证——我觉得我必须停下来，因为这对她不公平。
Original English >> there were different times and Donna can can vouch for that where I just felt like I've just got to stop this cuz it's not being fair to her. Like like I
>> 然后他会哭着给我打电话。我趴在地板上，两只吉娃娃在舔我脸上的眼泪，我心里想着我简直不敢相信这一切。然后电话响了，我接起来，他在抽泣，一直重复着：“不是唐娜，不要唐娜，不要唐娜。”他一直就重复这一句话。我想着，好吧，我当时完全不明白是什么意思，因为我根本不知道背后的故事。
Original English >> And then he called me crying on like that. Now I'm face down with the Chihuahua on the floor. They're licking the tears off my face and and I'm like I just can't believe this. And the phone rings and I pick it up and he's crying and he's saying not Donna. He's sobbing. Not Donna. Not Donna. That's all he kept saying. Not Donna. And like I thought, okay, like I didn't really understand because I didn't have any backtory.
>> 我不知道那是什么意思。
Original English >> I didn't know what what does that mean? Yeah.
>> 他一直说：“不，不，不是唐娜，不能失去你。”然后他说：“来我的公寓吧。”结果我们分手了四到六个小时左右。
Original English >> Yeah. So he just kept saying no no not not Donna not you. Then he said come up to my apartment. So like we were broke up for 4 hours or eight or six hours or something.
>> 霍伊，那对你而言意味着什么？
Original English >> And what did that mean to you? Hoy what were you what did that mean?
>> 表态说“我必须停止这段关系”让我感觉非常痛苦和错误。我觉得即使这与我当时所谓的信仰体系相抵触，我还是觉得我无法……这很难表达，因为我知道我不能告诉她真相，然而——也许这出于自私——我还没准备好放手。唐娜和这段关系对我而言变得太重要了，我陷入了深深的内心冲突。所以我尝试分开，然后失败，然后给自己找理由，然后再尝试。我不知道经历过多少次。
Original English >> I just you know making that stand of saying uh I have got to stop this I just it just felt wrong. I felt like even though it went counter to my so-called belief system at that time, I was like, I can't I can't it's hard for me to articulate because I knew I couldn't tell her and yet and and and maybe this was, you know, some selfishness. I I just I wasn't ready to let go and the relationship and she and and Donna had become too important to me and and so I was in deep conflict and uh so I would try and then fail and then uh rationalize and then try again. I don't know how many times. Uh
>> 我想说大概有三次。
Original English >> I want to say three.
>> 唐娜，如果你是我的闺蜜，跟我说这个男人跟你提了分手，结果四个小时后你们又和好了，而且这种情况发生了三次，我肯定会惊呼：“什么情况？你怎么想的？”这对你来说也是非常痛苦的。
Original English >> Wow, Donna. I mean, I'm just imagining I'm your girlfriend and you tell me this guy's broken up with you and then you're back together in 4 hours and that's happened in, you know, three times. This is also I would be like, what? How are you feeling? I mean, that's very painful in its own way for you.
>> 是的，确实非常痛苦。
Original English >> Yeah, it was it was there was a lot of pain. Um,
>> 你为什么会回去？第一次发生时你难道不会觉得“行吧，老兄，你包袱真多”吗？
Original English >> why did you go back? I mean, at the first time, would you be like, all right, you're dealing with a lot, buddy.
>> 首先，我一直以为是因为他的工作，对吧？他说自己到处飞，出差太多了。
Original English >> I think Well, first of all, you know, I always thought it was the job, right? He's like, I travel too much.
>> 让人吃不消。
Original English >> You're like really takes a toll. Yeah.
>> 他会说“我不知道自己想要什么”或者“我在情感上没有你成熟”。这都是事实。但我交往过的每个男人基本都这么说过，并不是什么新鲜话。区别只是这家伙哭得厉害得多。
Original English >> So I said, you know, but he would say like I don't know what I want or I'm not emotionally as advanced as you are. All true. And it wasn't anything I hadn't heard from every other guy I was dating. Yeah. Like this guy just cries a lot more. But yeah.
>> 他第一次那么做的时候确实哭了。
Original English >> No, that one time he cried the first time he did it.
>> 一个30岁的男人不知道自己想要什么，这并不罕见。所以我当时觉得，你和其他男人没什么两样。
Original English >> So the it it wasn't unusual to have a guy at 30 not know what he wants. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, you and everybody else,
>> 你试图把它看作正常现象，因为你不知道背后的背景，觉得这可以应对。而且我还记得你说过：“听着，我并没有要求你娶我。我有我自己的事业，我们顺其自然就好。”
Original English >> you're trying to be like, this is normal, you know, because you don't know the context or like we can we can deal with this. And also, I might add, I'm remembering that you're like, listen, I'm not asking you to marry me. You know what I mean? Like I got my own thing going. Like, let's just let's just be how we are, right?
>> 我当时完全就是这种态度。
Original English >> That's exactly how I was.
>> 但对你来说，双重忠诚在撕扯着你。你对唐娜有这份信任，她在你生命中如此重要，是什么阻碍了你向她坦白真相和你所面对的一切？
Original English >> And and but for you, there's these dueling loyalties that you have that are it seems like really ripping you apart. If you were feeling this, you know, you you have this trust with Donna. She's so important to your life. I don't know what was holding you back from telling her what you were really from telling her the truth, what you were really dealing with.
>> 那样做是对团体的背叛。那对我依然有极大的束缚，我觉得自己做出了承诺。而且告诉唐娜……
Original English >> That would have been a betrayal to the group and that was still that still had the the the the biggest hooks in me feeling that I'd made this commitment. So, and telling Donna would have it.
>> 他也知道如果说出来，我就会离开。
Original English >> Well, he also knew I would have been gone.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 所以他会两头落空。
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah. And you could have So, he would have lost both.
>> 无论怎么选都没有解法。
Original English >> Wow. Right. Like either way, he was he had there was really no solution.
### 破局的晚餐与彻底断联 >> 我们马上回来。你说得对，唐娜，告诉你就意味着同时失去团体和你。代价太高了。但最终出现了一个转折点，你必须做出选择。你能讲讲唐娜见到团体成员的那一刻吗？
Original English >> We'll be right back. You know, you're talking about how to tell Donna, I like how you're putting that, Donna. I mean, you didn't know at the time, but would be to lose both the group and Donna. I mean, the stakes are so high, but eventually there is sort of a breaking point where you do have to choose. Can you tell me about that? Can you tell me about the moment that Donna met members of the group?
>> 这当中有个铺垫过程。当时我们交往了四年，大约是1998年底或1999年初，具体时间我记不清了。我依然经常在欧洲各国奔波。
Original English >> Well, I mean the there's a buildup to it because um at this point we're four years into the relationship. It's around the the end of 98, beginning of 99. I don't remember exactly when the timeline was, but it was around that period. And I'm still traveling through Europe.
>> 天哪。
Original English >> My god.
>> 一直在跑。按当时的说法，地球本该出现剧烈变故。我身处巴黎、米兰或西班牙，环顾四周，心想海啸在哪里呢？外面什么都没发生。
Original English >> All the time. And at this point, there were supposed to be all these earth changes. So I, you know, I'm in Paris or Milan or Spain and I'm like, looking around, maybe just a little thunder, where's that tsunami? I was happening out here.
>> 我突然醒悟过来：我还没准备好说它是错的，但我认为时间表对不上。我得出了这个结论。后来有一次我回到北卡罗来纳州面对团体，在袒露心声时我承认，我觉得大家都生活在泡沫里，我告诉你们外面什么事都没发生。
Original English >> So So the the epiphany I have is like, all right, I'm not ready to say it's wrong. Sure. But I think the timeline's off. Okay. like that was that was that's I got to that place, right? And uh so at a at a moment of vulnerability when I was back in North Carolina with the group, I um confessed that that I think you know that you know you guys are all down here. You guys are living in a bubble and you don't like I'm telling you there's nothing going on out there.
>> 你说“我去过别的地方”。
Original English >> You're like I've been other places.
>> 是的。于是我遭到了抨击，被斥为亵渎者、异端，违抗邪教头目。我被严厉打压，这是标准流程，大家都承受过很多。但那时我觉得事情不可能更糟了，不如索性坦白……
Original English >> Yeah. And and so I got attacked like a blasphemer, a heretic, you know, going against the cult leaders and I'm so I'm getting crushed, which is standard procedure. I I endured a lot of that. Everyone did. Uh but at that point, I thought, well, it can't get any worse, so I might as well admit
>> 坦白唐娜的事。
Original English >> about D.
>> 是的。我说我一直在和一个人交往。他们震惊了：“什么？”我说：“是的，但她根本不是那样的人。”因为当时整个组织带有厌女氛围，他们描绘的女人都是危险的、会用爪子抓住男人的。对团体里的女性也是一样，她们被告知唯一能信任的男人只有团体里的成员。那是种非常病态的环境。我试图为她辩护，但他们根本不接受。我触犯了规则，他们必须把我拉回去重新灌输思想，于是就促成了那次晚餐会面。
Original English >> Yeah. And so I'm like, oh, and also I've been seeing someone. They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, yeah. And and I'm like, but she's not at all. Cuz there was a misogynistic vibe to the whole thing at that point. And uh and I said, she's so not like any of these women you portrayed, you know, cuz there was always in that way that that women could be dangerous to you claws into them. And it was the same thing for the women in the group. They were told, you know, that they were, you know, that the only men they could trust would be the ones in like it was it was it was a really [ __ ] up situation. So, I'm trying to make a case and there's they're not buying it at all. I was breaking a rule and they they had to bring me, you know, back in. They had to reindoate me to some degree and that's and that's what led to the um the dinner meeting
>> 唐娜，从你的角度来看，那次晚餐意味着什么？你去见霍伊的朋友。他说起过他在北卡罗来纳州的商业伙伴，是他最亲密的朋友，像大家庭一样。所以我想：“那太好了。”有一天他说他们要来纽约，或许可以一起吃个晚饭。我以为他是想把我们的关系推进到下一个阶段，因为他想让我见他的“家人”。这完全合情合理，听起来就像是他准备进一步接纳我。
Original English >> this dinner, Donna, from your perspective, what what was it? You were meeting Ho's friends. again. He says, "I, you know, I had heard about his business partners in North Carolina and that they were his closest, dearest friends and they're like his extended family." So, I'm like, "Oh, how nice." And he um said one day, "I'm going to they're going to be in New York." And so, I thought maybe we could all have dinner. So, I'm thinking he's moving this to the next level. Exactly. Because he wants me to meet his family. Totally. Totally. It's like the whole That's exactly how it sound like. Like, oh, he's ready to let me in a little bit further.
>> 带着这样的理解进入晚餐，以为是一道防线被放下了。
Original English >> This is your understanding going into this dinner is a wall is being let down. I mean,
>> 以为他感觉更自在了，准备让我融入。
Original English >> like he's having some feelings that he's more comfortable maybe integrating.
>> 知道你的预设，再对比实际发生的事，这太令人震撼了。唐娜，你在那顿晚餐上经历了什么？
Original English >> Wow. It's so interesting to know that was your perspective and to know what was actually happening. So, and I want us I want to stay with your perspective because we know what the purpose of this meeting is. I'm I'm looking at Hoy, but Donna, so you come into this and what do you experience at that dinner? Yeah.
>> 我来给你描绘一下当时的场景。我们坐在角落的一张方桌旁，有四个座位。霍伊在我右边，邪教头目的一个得力干将在我左边，另一个坐在我对面。他们开始当面斥责、数落他。
Original English >> So, well, let me just set it up for you. It's a We're in a corner table, so there's four seats on a square table. So, Hoy is to my right. This one of the lieutenants is to my left, and another lieutenant is sitting straight across from me. They start railing on him.
>> 哇。
Original English >> Whoa.
>> 说他永远成不了气候。我最初的反应是完全无法理解。他们一直不停地说，说他现在想演戏什么的，我说转行演戏是很自然的发展啊……
Original English >> Like, he's never going to amount to anything. And And my initial thing at the dinner. Yeah. And I was like, I just couldn't get my head around that. They just kept doing that. now he wants to act and now you know and I'm like well that's a natural progression
>> 没错。
Original English >> right
>> 而他只是身体前倾，整个人像是被催眠了一样。
Original English >> and he just leaned in and he just was like entranced
>> 他们在不断打压他。
Original English >> oh it was yeah and they're hammering
>> 我只记得心里在喊：“我的男朋友去哪儿了？那个男人去哪儿了？”这太令人不安了，发生得太快了，我只记得在想：“你到哪里去了？”我非常清楚有什么严重不对劲的事情正在发生，但我当然不知道到底是什么。
Original English >> wow and I just remember going where's my boyfriend where's the where is the guy that's really disconcerting but it was so fast it happened so fast and I just remember saying like where did you go and I was very clear that something very wrong was underway, but I wasn't. Of course, I would have no idea what it was.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 后来我觉得自己像是断片了。我幻想着自己当时站起来，看着他们说：“你们两个心理变态的家伙。”然后扬长而去。但现实是，晚餐结束了，我迫不及待地想离开。我走在前面，霍伊跟在我身后。我们回到我的公寓，像平时一样泡了姜茶。他坐下来，神情依然像被催眠了一样。我跨坐到他身上，贴近他的脸，忍不住放声大哭。
Original English >> And so then I don't know. I don't I think I blacked out, but I I don't I feel like I my Let me just tell you what my fantasy is of what happened next. I stood up and I look at them and I say, "You are two sick motherfuckers." And I walk out. But the reality and I leave smoke behind me. The reality is it we wound it down and then I like I couldn't wait to get out. I remember leaving and walking steps ahead of Hoy. He's behind me. I don't know what happened to them. We get up to my apartment. We do the usual ginger tea. He sits down and he's still quite entranced. And I throw one leg over. I straddle him and I get this close to his face and I just start sobbing.
>> 唐娜……
Original English >> Wow. Donna,
>> 我说：“那些人根本不是你的朋友。那根本不是爱。”他说：“不，他们是在试图让我变得更好。”我说：“那是胡扯！那绝不是爱。任何口口声声说爱你的人，都绝不会那样对待你。”他依然处于恍惚中，而我痛哭失声，心想：“天哪，到底怎么回事？”这时我的电话响了，是他们打来的。
Original English >> I say, "Those are not your friends. That is not love." And he said, "No, they're trying to make me better." I go, "That is [ __ ] That is not love. And nobody who says they love you will ever treat you like that." He was still entranced. And I'm sobbing. And I was just like, "What? In God's name?" And then my phone rings and it's them.
>> 天哪。
Original English >> Oh my god.
>> 我接起电话，他们在电话里问：“唐娜，我们能谈谈吗？”我心想这究竟是怎么回事。我把电话递给霍伊，他在电话里说：“嗯，是的，好的，好的。”挂断电话后他说：“我得走了。”然后他就离开了。他消失了，我很久都没有他的消息，打破了我们以往联系的节奏。我知道出事了。当时我在巴尼斯百货上城店工作，店里的一个男同事说：“我刚才在阿玛尼办公室看到你男朋友了。”在纽约。我心想：“他在纽约，却没打电话给我。”
Original English >> And I pick it up and they're like, "Hey, Donna, can we talk?" And I'm like, "What is happening?" Give him the phone and he says, "Um, yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay." He hangs up the phone and he says, "I got to go." And so he left. He disappeared. I didn't hear from him for longer than it should have. like there was a certain cadence to your communication. Yeah. And uh and I just knew something was wrong. So I was working at Barney's Uptown at this point and one of the guys who worked there said, "Oh, I just saw your boyfriend at uh the Armani offices." And then in New York and I was like, "He's here." And he didn't call
>> 那种感觉该有多心碎。
Original English >> and I got How are you feeling? I mean that is devastating. Yeah.
>> 我走到柜台一个姑娘面前说：“给我根烟。”我们在外面一根接一根地抽烟，我完全不知所措，心碎成一片。每一个曾被深爱之人恶劣对待过的女人，都能体会那种心口坍塌的剧痛。接着你开始怀疑：我到底是在和谁在一起？我面对的究竟是什么人？我想我后来给他写了一封信，再次重申那些人根本不是朋友。他留着那封信，我记得我用彩色马克笔做了标注，用红墨水写了其中一部分。我非常渴望他能看明白。后来不知道过了多久，我收到了回信——一封他们替他写的信。
Original English >> I mean, I was, you know, I think I went to one of one of the girls in on the department. I was like, "Give me a cigarette." And we were like outside chain smoking. I like didn't know what else to do. Of course. Yeah. I was like, I don't remember what happened, but I was, you know, crushed. Every woman who's ever been treated badly by someone that they loved, it was just that heartwrenching like cave-in in your chest that just and you then you start to question who was I really with? What what was what was I dealing with? And um I think I wrote him a letter that said I'm just going to reiterate that those are not friends. And he has the letter and I think I color coded it like I did something with like colored markers. That's awesome. You're like, "Really needs to get it. I'm going to use markers." Yeah. She wrote in in red ink. Wow. Like a part of it only though. So it was like I was like, "You really felt it. You really wanted him to see." Yeah. I really wanted him to see. I really really wanted him to see. So then uh I don't know what the time frame was, but then I got a letter.
>> 你寄出了信，然后收到了一封回信。
Original English >> You sent him that letter and then he sent you a letter back
>> 是他们代写的。信里霍伊写着“我从未爱过你”，这让我暴怒。当时我不知道是团体写的，落款是霍伊的签名。
Original English >> that they wrote. Wow. And uh and I was pissed because in it he's like I never loved you. I didn't know that the group wrote it. No, it was from Hoy. He signed it.
>> 霍伊，这真的很残忍。
Original English >> Wow. Hoy. Wow. That's really tough.
>> 是的，那是他们口述给我、逼我写的。
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah. They they dictated it to me.
>> 那是你们最后一次交流吗？
Original English >> Was that the final time you talked to each other? Um, no. I
>> 不，其实还有一次。
Original English >> No, we actually
>> 当时发生了许多事，那时我已经被派驻到北卡罗来纳州，过着类似奴隶的生活。趁着屋子里没人、没人能监控我的空隙，我偷偷给她打电话道歉了。因为她在纽约的电话答录机里给我留了言，我回了电话。我非常清晰地记得听到他的声音时，我对他说：“你不能单凭一封信就这么一走了之。如果你和一个人相处了四年，你应该当面交谈、说清楚。”他说：“天哪，当然是这样。”我记得当时心想：这就是霍伊，这才是他的声音，这才是那个我认识的霍伊。
Original English >> I I was there was a whole lot of stuff going on, but but when I had at that point I had been moved down to North Carolina and and I was kind of operating as a as a sl a slave of sorts. So, uh, when I got a moment free where I knew no one was in the house and no one could track, I actually called her and apologized. But it was because I left a message on his answering machine in the city and I he called me and I remember very spec very vividly hearing his voice and I'm going you don't get to just walk away in writing you you if you're going to be with someone for four years you have a conversation you talk it you talk yourself out of it you know and he was like oh my god of course and I and I remember saying that's hoy that's the hoy I know just his voice
>> 我问他：“你为什么要做这种事？为什么不能直接跟我谈谈？”他说：“我没有你那种成熟度。我在情感上的成长没有你那么快，我还没有准备好。”我说：“行吧，你和天下其他男人一个样，处于同一个阶段。”我觉得这很荒唐，但这是一个合理的借口。虽然不容易，但至少让我觉得我们是两个处在不同人生阶段的普通人，这并不改变对彼此的爱。这让我心里好受多了，因为我一度以为自己疯了。那一刻我觉得，好吧，这才是那个我认识的人。
Original English >> I said why would you do something like that. Why wouldn't you just talk to me? And he said, "I don't have the maturity that you have. I just haven't grown at the rate you have emotionally and I'm not as ready." And I said, "Okay, well, you and every other guy." Yeah. It's in the same boat. It's that's the age. So, I just thought like, well, how how ridiculous. That's a legitimate out. And it would have been an easy conver not easy but it would have been two human beings just feeling like we're in different places and okay doesn't mean it doesn't change my love for you or so that made me feel a lot better cuz at least I was like cuz I thought I lost my mind. I'm like okay that's the guy I know. I I believe that's the guy that I know.
>> 那是你们最后一次通话吗？你还记得霍伊对你说的最后一句话吗？
Original English >> Was that his final was that the final time you talked? Do you remember Hoit's last words to you?
>> 我们俩都在哭，就说了声“再见”。
Original English >> We were just crying just like bye you know. Okay. Bye.
### 出逃、觉醒与漫长的重逢 >> 霍伊，你当时想过自己还会再和唐娜说话吗？
Original English >> Hoy, did you ever think you'd talk to Donna again?
>> 没有。我当时连自己能不能活下去都不知道，更别提再见到唐娜了。那根本不在我的考虑范围内，太遥远了。我只知道我再也不能留在那里了。我想那是人类精神找到某种求生动机的时刻，不管听起来多么曲折，那成了促使我逃出那扇门的力量。失去唐娜就是大家常说的人生谷底。即便我认为这可能会导致我自己的灭亡，我也一刻都不能再待下去了。幸运的是，我当时唯一能想到的去处，是我朋友法比奥（Fabio）的家。
Original English >> No. I mean, I I didn't know if I was going to survive, let alone ever see Donna. Like, I I you know, that that was that was actually not even on the radar because I thought that was so far. I I just um I just I just knew that I couldn't stay there anymore. M and uh and and I think that's where your um I guess you call it your human spirit finds some rational as convoluted as that sounds that was what it took to get me out that [ __ ] door. And so yeah, I'm grateful that I got that's the rock bottom that everyone talks about, you know, losing Donna. Yeah. And thinking, you know, it's probably going to be my own demise, but I can't I I can't stay here another minute. and and you know, and luckily, yeah, I uh it's one of the the charming and funny parts of the the only place I could think of where to go um was my buddy Fabio's place.
>> 我们马上回来。唐娜以为再也不会有霍伊的消息，霍伊也以为再也见不到唐娜。但我们刚才停下的地方是，你说逃离邪教后唯一能想到的去处就是朋友法比奥的家。
Original English >> We'll be right back. You thought you'd never hear from Hoy again. You thought you'd never talk to Donna again, but then the place we left off is you said, "Well, the only place I could think after leaving this cult was to go to my friend Fabios."
>> 是的，因为如果我和家人待在一起，他们会受到盘问。我认识法比奥，他是我认识的最早的一批模特之一，我们在80年代中期相识并成为好友，一起健身、去俱乐部。法比奥值得很大赞誉，当我出现在他家门口时，我只是昔日自我的一个空壳。他知道最好的方式是给我庇护和安全空间。正如他后来多次对我说的：“我知道当你准备好谈论时你就会来找我，我不会催促或打探。”
Original English >> Well, well, yeah, because it was like if I spent time with my family, they were going to be questioned. Right. Right. And um, you know, I'd known Fabio. He was one of the first models I met. So, I I'd met him like in the mid80s and and we just become friends and we would, you know, work out together. we go to the clubs together and and I put a lot of the credit onto Fabio who uh when I turned up at his house, you know, a shadow of the guy that that he uh had known um he knew that it was best to just give me sanctuary and safe space. And as he said to me many times, he goes, "I knew when you were ready to talk, you would come to me and I was not going to push or probe."
>> 那真是一位好朋友。后来你是如何重新与唐娜取得联系的？过了多久？
Original English >> And that's that's a good friend. Wow. We got to have Fab on the show. I mean, my question is, you know, you're regrouping, you know, at Fabios and then later, I would assume, elsewhere. How do you get back in touch with Donna? When? How long had it been?
>> 那经历了一个大约两年的过程。我当时依然没有完全认清那到底是什么。直到我与另一个在我之前三四年脱离团体的人重新联系上，我们后来住在一起。那时我才真正醒悟。我对他说：“我不知道，这听起来太诡异了。人们一直说那是邪教，你觉得有可能吗？”他一开始说：“不不不，当然不是，我们绝不会陷入那种东西。”
Original English >> Well, it was really when I um it was about a 2-year process. I went, you know, I went I was still I hadn't really acknowledged what it was yet. And when I had reconnected with a guy who had left the group four, three or four years before me. So, we ended up moving in together and and that you and the other ex guy Dar. And that's when finally the I had the epiphany. I was like, I don't know, man. It sounds like so weird. Like people been saying it's a cult. Do you think there's a chance? He's like no no no yeah of course not we would never get that.
>> 你们之前从未对彼此用过那个词。
Original English >> You hadn't used that word to each other yet.
>> 从来没有，因为在我们的视角里那是别人强加给我们的标签。在那一刻我想，虽然我也觉得不是邪教，但我至少做点调查。我做了最基础的检索，找到了一本关于该主题的畅销书。读了前60页，里面列出的每一项特征都完全吻合，我心想：“天哪，事实正是如此。”
Original English >> Never never never from the point of view of like people had labeled us that. So it was at that moment I'm like well I don't think it was a cult either but let me at least do some research. And so I just uh ended up doing the most cursory research and found this bestselling book on the subject and read the first 60 pages and ticking every box going, "Oh my god, this is exactly what it was."
>> 我想到的第一件事是必须打电话给我哥哥，他曾经试图干预，因为他早已认出那是邪教。第二个电话就是打给唐娜：“我欠你一个解释。”她说这应该当面谈，我说确实应该。我说有太多事情需要向你解释，我知道最后那段时间变得很怪异，我可以告诉你原因。我们就是这样重新恢复联系的。
Original English >> And then the first thing I thought of was I've got to call my brother who had tried to do an intervention cuz he had called it and and recognized it was a cult. And um and then the second phone call was to Donna like I owe you an explanation. And so uh she was like u this is a conversation we should have in person. I yeah we should. and um said there's a whole thing to un unfold for you here, but I know things got a little weird there at the end and I can tell you why. And so, you know, that's that's how we got back in touch.
>> 那是一段棘手的时期。在康复初期，你内心背负着巨大的羞耻感，总想着“我要找回我的人生和所有失去的时间”。但在康复过程中你会明白，沉溺于这些想法并没有帮助，因为你并没有失去时间，如果你选择深挖，你获得了宝贵的经验。但我当时还没达到那个境界，我只想见到唐娜，和她结婚生子。而她则反应审慎。
Original English >> And uh you know, and it was it was it was it was tricky terrain. I mean, um, when you're early in a recovery process, there you're carrying a lot of shame and you're carrying like, oh, I got to re recapture my life and all this lost time. And you learn in the recovery process, those those words are not particularly helpful because you didn't lose time. You you you got valuable information if you choose to dive into it. But I wasn't at that place yet. And I just I want to see Donna and like get married and have babies and all and she's like
>> 我确实觉得我们浪费了时间，我不同意他的说法。
Original English >> I I do feel that we lost time. I don't agree.
>> 她当时对我说：“等一下。”
Original English >> And she was like hold on a second.
>> 唐娜，告诉我接到那个电话时你的想法。
Original English >> I mean tell me your perspective, Donna. I mean it's to get this call.
>> 当时我正在和别人约会，所以情况很复杂。生活总在继续向前。他打电话来，我的语气就是：“你想要干什么？”然后他说：“我需要向你解释一些事情。当时之所以发生那种情况，是因为——我当时不知道，但后来我明白了——我身处一个邪教组织。那是一个邪教。”我和我的朋友们以前经常笑谈，说他要是坚称自己是蝙蝠侠，我都更有可能相信。
Original English >> Yeah. I mean I was seeing someone else so I had that was complicated. Yeah. Wow. Um life is Yeah. Keep moving. Keeps moving. Yeah. So, um, he called and I just was like in my t tone like, "What do you want?" Yeah. You know, I get it. And then he said, "I need to explain something to you, and I want to tell you that the reason it went down the way it went down is, I didn't know it at the time, but I've since learned I was in a cult. That was a cult." Oh, and you know, my friends and I used to laugh and be like, "You had a better chance of convincing me he was Batman."
>> 如果我的朋友在群聊里发消息说“那个男人玩失踪是因为他在邪教里”，我肯定会说“是啊，那我还是总统呢”。
Original English >> I will say if my friend was like texted the group chat like, "The reason the guy ghosted was he's in Nicole." I'd be like, "Yeah, and I'm president." You know what I mean?
>> 或者说“问题不在你，在我”。
Original English >> Or like, "It's not you, it's me."
>> 完全就是借口。
Original English >> You know, totally. Totally was you. You know, it was like
>> 这么多年过去，回想起来确实带点幽默，但在当时那一刻，你心里是怎么想的？
Original English >> there is some humor to this even though it's Yeah. In this this many years later, for sure. Of course. Of course. But in the moment it was like I mean I can't What were you thinking?
>> 我当时大致对他说，你唯一的合理解释要么是反社会人格，要么是精神病态。因为没有人能像你对我那样表现那么久，然后突然做出那种事。
Original English >> Uh apparently I said something to the effect that the only your only explanation is that you're either a sociopath or a psychopath. Yeah. Which which is logical considering because I'm like no one presents themselves the way you did to me for that long. And then confusing.
>> 我说了类似的话，然后他说：“听着，我希望能有机会当面跟你解释。”我说：“我不会在电话里谈这个，而且我甚至不确定是否想跟你有任何交谈。我需要考虑一下，睡一觉再做决定。”我想他说：“那等我到纽约的时候，可以给你打电话吗？”
Original English >> Yeah. So I said something to that effect and then he said, "Listen, I would like to have an opportunity to explain this to you." And I said, "Well, I'm not having that conversation over the phone and I'm not sure if I'm having any conversation with you." Yeah. And I need to think about it. I need to sleep on it. And I believe he said, "Well, then you know, when I'm in New York, would it be okay if I gave you a call?"
>> 后来他打了电话，我们确实去吃了一顿晚餐。我们去了El Coyote餐厅吃龙虾。我记得当时非常紧张，服务员走过来问要喝点什么，我们俩异口同声说：“请快点上酒。”
Original English >> So he did. And we did go and have dinner. We went to Elkote and had lost. Oh my god. Nothing like fighting over lobster. Um, and I remember just feeling so nervous. I remember the waiter came over and said, "Drinks." And we both were like, "Yes, please." But I couldn't get that fast enough. Order two with you. Yeah. Yeah. How fast can you get that here?
>> 我们点了酒，然后开始长谈，他向我讲述了整件事情的原委。我的心彻底碎了。
Original English >> Um so we ordered and we ordered a drink and then we talked and he took me through the whole thing and um you know my heart broke. Yeah. It was just
>> 当初的愤怒到哪里去了？
Original English >> What happened to that anger?
>> 愤怒荡然无存了。我只是为他感到心碎。我原本以为那些只是普通恋爱中的问题——一个不知道自己想要什么、害怕承诺的男人。但事实远比那庞大得多。当你面对面坐着，听一个人诉说他受到的虐待以及遭受虐待的方式，即便现在谈起我依然感到难受，但当时看着他，分担那份痛苦，因为我爱他。所以我完全没有任何“我要让你付出代价”的想法，我只想张开双臂紧紧拥抱他。
Original English >> It just wasn't there. M it just wasn't I just my heart broke you know for him and you know whatever feelings I had that I thought were just normal relationship kind of you know a guy who doesn't know what he wants and doesn't want to commit or you know it was so much bigger than that and you know when you have someone sit and tell you that they've been abused and the way in which they've been abused I mean I you know I it upsets me now but it's hard to sit there and look and even even tangentially share that pain because I love him. So there was absolutely no I'm going to make you pay, you know, kind of thing. Um I just wanted to really wrap my arms around him.
>> 你拥抱了吗？
Original English >> Did you?
>> 没有。那次晚餐后我依然非常谨慎。他问：“我们能再吃一次晚饭吗？”我说：“好。”我记得我们在欧文广场（Irving Place）吃寿司，就在那时他说：“我想结婚，我想生孩子，我想和你一起慢慢变老，一起做祖父母。”我说：“这只过了一个星期左右，而且我还在和另一个人交往。”他并不知道这事。我说：“你不能这样。虽然我有我的感受，但一个人不可能直接跳回一段关系中。而且我知道，现在的关系永远不会再是我过去以为的那样了，因为对他而言，那曾是完全不同的体验。”
Original English >> No. After that dinner, I was very reticent and he said, "Can we have another dinner?" And I said, "Yes." So I remember we were on over over on Irving Place. We were having sushi and that's when he's just like, "I want to get married. I want to have kids. I want to grow old. I want to be grandparents with you." And then I was like, "Okay, it's only been a week maybe and I'm still seeing that same per other person." He didn't know that. And I just said, "You can't you can't do that." Like even though I feel what I feel. Yeah. Like someone just doesn't jump back into a relationship and I know now it will never be the relationship that I thought we had and that it was for me. Um cuz it was something very different for him. Mhm.
>> 后来我们一起做些普通的事，比如去逛街，互问今天打算做什么。然后我们复合了大约两年，接着又分手了。后来他搬到了洛杉矶，我留在了纽约。
Original English >> So we did more things like you know go shopping and did things where what are you doing today and you know um and then we got back together for like two years and then we broke up again and then he moved to LA and I stayed in New York. H
### 三十年的兜转与最终归宿 >> 尽管剧透显示你们最终结婚了，故事有一个圆满的结局，但即便停留在那里，这依然是一段关于羁绊、探索以及理解爱真正含义的非凡故事。当他搬到洛杉矶而你留在纽约时，你们有多少年没有联系？
Original English >> it just it seems to me like and and spoiler I said you got married so there is a final sort of beat to the story but if that were it this would still be a remarkable tale of connection and discovery and figuring out what love really means and for how many years were you not in contact I think when you moved to LA and you stayed in New York.
>> 后来我们其实又复合了一次。他飞到纽约，我飞去洛杉矶，彼此往返，那样又持续了两三年。我们在每个十年里，几乎都会复合两到三年。
Original English >> Uh well then we we got back together another time. So and that was we were going back and forth from he would come here and I would go there and that went for another two or three years. So I was the way we cuz it's hard to track every decade we got together for between two and three years.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 然后每一次都会搞砸分手。
Original English >> And blew up.
>> 每次都如此。
Original English >> Yeah. Each time.
>> 跟我说说那次真正维系住的重新联络。
Original English >> Tell me about the reconnection that stuck.
>> 他通过领英（LinkedIn）给我发了一条消息。
Original English >> So he sent me a message through LinkedIn.
>> 哇，通过领英，看来你们当时真的完全断联了。距你们上次说话过去了多少年？
Original English >> Oh wow. Oh, so you really weren't in touch cuz it was LinkedIn. Yeah. Wow. So you hadn't How many years had it been, let me just say, since you'd like last spoken when you
>> 大概八年。
Original English >> probably eight.
>> 那些年里我偶尔会想：“该死，怎么又是霍伊。”这个名字像烙印一样刻在我的脑海里。我心想：“他又想干嘛？”消息里说他正在制作一部纪录片，想知道我是否愿意出镜接受采访。
Original English >> Wow. You know, and it's like over the years I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] Hoy again." You know, I'm like he's been the name, you know, it's like burned into my head. So I'm just like, "What now?" Oh, so it's a message saying that the he is working on a documentary film and was wondering if I would be willing to get on camera.
>> 我说绝不可能。
Original English >> So, um I said there is no way.
>> 我看了那部纪录片，你确实没在里面。
Original English >> Yeah. You I didn't have to say it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I saw the documentary. You weren't in it, so I assume. But yes. Yes.
>> 我的核心态度是：在这个宇宙中，没有任何可能让我在镜头前公开谈论我们的私人感情，除非你我之间先当面把话彻底说开。后来收到消息，他说：“我要来纽约。”我说：“好的。”我们在我家见面，开始交谈。我把多年来面对这些荒唐混乱所积攒的所有感受一股脑全说了出来。
Original English >> But the my point was is I said you and I there's nothing in this universe that could put me on camera discussing our private relationship right before you and I have that conversation. And so I got a message and he said, "I'm coming to New York." And I said, "Okay." And uh we met at my house and we started talking and I just started saying, you know, these are the feelings that I've had over the years dealing with this madness.
>> 这听起来像是一次你终于豁出去、坦诚以待的对话。
Original English >> It seems like this was a conversation where you were finally like a little bit excuse my French, but [ __ ] it. I'm going to be honest with you.
>> 是的。我不在乎这会不会改变他对我的看法。我只想说：“去他的，霍伊，我想你，我爱你。”
Original English >> Yeah. And I don't care whether you ever talk Well, I didn't care other times, but I mean, I did care, but I didn't care if it changed the way he thought of me. Yeah. And I was just like, "Fuck that." at Hoy, I miss you. I love you.
>> 霍伊，在相隔这么多年重新联系时，你期望从唐娜那里得到什么？
Original English >> Wow. Hoy, what were you when in this conversation or when you're reconnecting after this many years, what did you want, Donna, to
>> 我想补充一句：我当时只想自由地把那句话说出口。
Original English >> And I'll just add and I wanted to be free to say it.
>> 对我而言，这是一段真正理解爱对我意味着什么的旅程。在我的成长过程中，并没有太多健康的爱的榜样。但这段旅程的美妙之处在于，看到某种一直存在的东西，并终于看清了它的本质，同时意识到过去那些虚假、让人分心的爱从未真正滋养过我或对方。并不是说我生命中没有其他我爱的人，但唐娜始终属于一个独特的类别。我很感激，当我终于想明白这一切时，她身边还没有别人。
Original English >> Yeah. I think it was a lot of um I think for me it's been the journey of really understanding what love meant to me and not having a ton of healthy modeling for that along my life. But that's been the beauty of the journey to see the um something that's been there the whole time and to finally see it in its proper essence and realizing that the I guess more false distracting love that I'd fallen prey to were were never serving me or the other person. and and and so and that's not to say I haven't there aren't other people in my life that I love and but Donna has always been in her own category and um and I'm just grateful that she was not with someone else when I finally came around
>> 终于想通了。
Original English >> figuring that out.
>> 感觉这一切就像是命中注定。从我的角度来看，由于我当时的心态和不成熟，我多次在无意识中破坏了这段感情。所以我非常感激能有这样一个人陪我走过这趟旅程，如今能一起携手走向夕阳，简直是梦想成真。
Original English >> Yeah. I mean it just yeah it just it just feels like it's meant to be. It really does like uh cuz we certainly and I can certainly say from my side you know I tried to ruin it you know not maybe consciously but you know many times you know and because of where I was um just in my own psyche and my you know lack of maturity. So I'm I'm grateful that I've had someone like this to go on this ride with and and uh to now uh ride off into the sunset together is a a dream come true.
>> 最后一个问题：经历了如此多的阻碍和挫折，你们为什么认为自己总能回到彼此身边？
Original English >> All right, my true final question. Why do you think you've kept coming back to each other despite so many obstacles and setbacks?
>> 是爱，真正的爱，语言甚至都无法完全捕捉。就我个人而言，能和见过我最糟糕一面的人在一起，是一种巨大的价值。我感到自己不必隐瞒任何事，不必保守秘密。你见过我最不堪的样子，这形成了一个真正的安全网。
Original English >> Uh love, it really is the real, you know, it's that thing that Yeah, I guess even the words don't really quite capture it. Um I mean, for me personally, I think being with someone who has seen me at my worst is a huge value. I don't feel I have to hide anything. I don't have to harbor secrets. I don't I mean you seen seen me at my worst. So that there's a real safety net.
>> 当你问这个问题时，我原本脱口而出的答案是这样的：在我们最后一次分手时，谁都没有做错什么，只是觉得实在走不通了。我们当时非常痛苦，因为我们没有争吵，也不憎恨对方，为什么就是无法克服那些障碍？正如霍伊所说，有他的不成熟，有亲密关系的问题，他经历了太多创伤，存在着无形的壁垒。但在那次分手时，我们坐下来一起祈祷。我们问上帝：“我们该怎么办？这究竟是怎么回事？”所以当他说“爱”时，我说那是“上帝”。因为我们当时决定：如果这份感情有存在的理由，那我们就彻底放手，顺其自然。当然，那之后整整过去了八年。我当时以为彻底结束了，但事实并非如此。
Original English >> So my what I was going to blurt out when you asked that question and I'll tell you why. The the the last whichever time we broke up, no one did anything. It was just not going to work. And we were we were so I was so distraught over that idea of like we're not fighting, we don't hate each other, you know, like what is why can't we overcome this thing that just keeps and and to Hoy's point, it was his immaturity. It was in intimacy issues. It was he'd been through a lot. So there were just barriers, implicit barriers. But when we left that, we sat down and we prayed. And we were basically like, what do we do? What is this thing? And so when he says love, I say God because that's what happened, right? Like we just said, if this is has a reason for being, then we're going to take our hands off the the button or the steering wheel and just let it be. Now, of course, eight years went by. Yeah. So I'm like, "Okay, it's going. It's gone." And then it wasn't. So
>> 唐娜、霍伊，非常感谢你们。
Original English >> Donna Hoy, thank you so much.
>> 谢谢你，安娜。很荣幸能来到这里。
Original English >> Thank you, Anna. It's been a pleasure to be here.
>> 是的，这真的很特别。谢谢。
Original English >> Yeah, it's really been very special. Thank you.
>> 《现代爱情》团队成员包括戴维斯·兰德（Davis Land）、阿丽莎·古铁雷斯（Alisa Gutierrez）、林·利维（Lin Levy）、雷瓦·戈德堡（Reva Goldberg）和莎拉·柯蒂斯（Sarah Curtis）。本期节目由戴维斯·兰德和阿丽莎·古铁雷斯制作，林·利维编辑。混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯（Daniel Ramirez）。录音人员包括马蒂·马里埃洛（Mattie Mariello）、尼克·皮特曼（Nick Pitman）、凯尔·格兰迪洛（Kyle Grandillo）和萨曼莎·温特（Samantha Winter）。特别鸣谢布鲁克·门托斯（Brooke Mentors）、塔米·洛斯（Tammy Lorse）和莎娜·亚历山大（Shaana Alexander）。本期原创音乐由罗文·奈米斯托（Rowan Neimisto）和丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）创作，丹·鲍威尔同时谱写了我们的主题曲。《现代爱情》专栏编辑为丹尼尔·琼斯（Daniel Jones），米娅·李（Mia Lee）是《现代爱情》项目编辑。如果您想向《纽约时报》投稿散文或爱情微故事，可以在节目说明中找到指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢您的收听。
Original English >> The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Davis Land and Alisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lin Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and our show was recorded by Mattie Mariello, Nick Pitman, Kyle Grandillo, and Samantha Winter. Special thanks to Brooke Mentors, Tammy Lorse, and Shaana Alexander. Original music in this episode by Rowan Neimisto and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.