--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-04-22' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm7n_74Wh6Y speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - law-enforcement - intelligence-agency - political-polarization - bureaucracy title: 深入卡什·帕特尔掌管下的联邦调查局 summary: 《纽约时报》记者采访了数十名现任及前任 FBI 雇员，披露卡什·帕特尔与丹·邦吉诺掌管联邦调查局后的政治化转型。报道涉及人员大规模调离与清洗、对涉特朗普案件调查人员的处理、将工作重心转向移民执法与舆论宣传等现象，并探讨了这一系列剧变对该机构独立性与国家安全的影响。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Kash Patel - Dan Bongino - Donald Trump companies_orgs: - FBI - The New York Times products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 《纽约时报》播客：深入 FBI 的变革调查 来自《纽约时报》，我是瑞秋·亚伯拉罕斯（Rachel Abrams），这里是《The Daily》。 自被任命为联邦调查局（FBI）局长那一刻起，卡什·帕特尔（Kash Patel）就引发了争议与担忧，人们关注他的领导方式会是怎样，以及这可能会如何影响这个肩负着保卫美国免受国内外威胁重任的机构。 今天，我的同事艾米莉·巴泽隆（Emily Bazelon）和瑞秋·波瑟（Rachel Poser）采访了数十名现任及前任 FBI 雇员，探讨 FBI 发生了怎样的转变。 今天是 4 月 22 日，星期三。 艾米莉·巴泽隆，欢迎来到《The Daily》。 非常感谢邀请我们。 >> 瑞秋·波瑟，第一次做客《The Daily》。 欢迎。谢谢你，很高兴能来这里。
Original English From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily. From the moment he was appointed director of the FBI, Cash Patel has invited controversy and concern about what his leadership would look like and how it might affect the agency that's tasked with protecting the United States from threats at home and abroad. Today, my colleagues Emily Basilon and Rachel Poser spoke to dozens of current and former FBI employees about how the FBI has been transformed. It's Wednesday, April 22nd. Emily Basilon, welcome to the Daily. Thanks so much for having us. >> Rachel Poser, first time on the Daily. Welcome. Thank you. Great to be here.
我们在节目中多次讨论过特朗普政府重塑联邦政府角色与职能的种种剧烈方式。其中许多结果显而易见：街头的移民与海关执法局（ICE）执法人员、抗拒法院命令的检察官等等。但以可能不那么显眼的方式被重塑的机构之一，就是 FBI。你们两位开展了一个庞大且雄心勃勃的报道项目，试图真正深入 FBI 内部。那么请告诉我们，关于该机构及其在特朗普政府下的运作方式，你们具体想要了解什么？ 你知道，自水门事件丑闻以来，从那个时期起，FBI 就一直力图独立于白宫运作，不偏不倚、无所畏惧地依据事实行事。这在联邦调查局是一件大事。因此当特朗普当选时，他过往就曾公开称该局腐败，并对自己受到调查感到非常愤怒。
Original English So, we have talked a lot on the show about all of these dramatic ways that the Trump administration has reshaped the role and the function of the federal government. A lot of those results are quite visible. ICE agents in the streets, prosecutors defying court orders, but one of the agencies that has been reshaped in perhaps less visible ways is the FBI. The two of you embarked on an enormous ambitious reporting project to try to really get inside the FBI. So tell us what specifically you were trying to understand about the agency and how it was functioning under the Trump administration. The FBI, you know, since the scandals of Watergate, since those days has really tried to operate independently of the White House and to follow the facts without fear or favor. That's a big deal in the bureau. And so when Trump was elected, he had a record of calling the bureau corrupt, of being very angry that he had been investigated.
>> “嗯，我认为 FBI 曾经是一个非常腐败的机构，从真实意义上说我是它的受害者。但我成功击败了它。” >> 特朗普政府上任后，他们的态度非常明确：该机构的使命正在发生改变。 >> “我们的前任把司法部（Department of Justice）变成了不公部（Department of Injustice）。但我今天站在这里向各位宣布，那些日子已经结束了，它们……” >> 你知道，FBI 的很多工作都是保密的。 >> 对吧？ >> 但我们想看清这场转变到底是什么样的。于是我们展开了这项调查，采访了 45 名现任和前任 FBI 雇员。 >> 哇。 >> 而我们发现的是一个在政治压力下苦苦支撑的机构，那里的领导层转变成了 FBI 任何人以前都未曾见过的、党派色彩浓厚得多的形态；特工们发现自己所从事的工作在他们看来截然不同，且与他们自己的使命感和宗旨相违背；他们开始真正为国家的安全保障感到担忧。
Original English >> Well, I think the FBI was a very corrupt institution, and I'm a I'm a victim of it in a true sense. I was able to beat it, >> and the Trump administration came in and they were really clear about this. The mission of the agency was changing. >> Our predecessors turned this Department of Justice into the Department of Injustice. But I stand before you today to declare that those days are over and they are >> and you know the FBI much of what it does is secret, >> right? >> But we wanted to see what this transformation looked like. And so we embarked on this investigation where we talked to 45 current and former FBI employees. >> Oh wow. >> And what we found was an agency that was really straining under political pressure where the leadership was transformed into something much more partisan than anyone at the FBI had seen before. and where agents were finding themselves doing work that felt to them like it was different and at odds with their own sense of mission and purpose and they were just really beginning to worry about the safety and security of the country.
### 新任领导层与公关作风 好吧，让我们先从领导层这个层面谈起，因为我想你们的报道在很大程度上与特朗普挑选的 FBI 局长卡什·帕特尔有关。帕特尔是一个极具争议的人物。他经常被指责举止反常。你们的报道揭示了他任期内的哪些情况？ 卡什·帕特尔对于这个职位来说是一个非常不同寻常的人选。 >> 他从未在 FBI 工作过，并且在联邦执法方面几乎没有什么经验。 >> 他曾做过公设辩护律师，并在特朗普第一任期内担任过情报官员。在当时认识他的人看来，他并不是特别勤奋，但非常自大、野心勃勃且夸夸其谈。 “因为唐纳德·特朗普在这次诉讼中应当开出的传票名单将是极其重大的。我希望他传唤每一个曾经捏造指控抨击他的‘政府黑帮’。我们要传唤加兰（Garland）、雷（Wray）。我们要把他们全部架在火上烤。我们要行动起来。”
Original English Well, let's start with the leadership aspect of this because I imagine that in large part your reporting has to do with Trump's pick for the FBI director Cash Patel. Patel is a really controversial figure. He's often been accused of pretty erratic behavior. What has your reporting shown about his tenure? So Cash Patel was a highly unusual pick for this role. >> He had never worked for the FBI and did not have much experience in federal law enforcement at all. >> He'd been a public defender and he'd worked as an intelligence official in the first Trump term. He's described by people who know him at the time as not particularly hardworking, but very cocky, ambitious, full of bluster. Because the subpoena list that Donald Trump should execute in this proceedings is going to be monumental. I want him to subpoena every government gangster that has ever called him out bogusly. We're going to subpoena Garland Rey. We're going to put all them in the hot seat. We're going to go.
>> 最重要的是，他曾散布过关于该局的阴谋论。他声称乔·拜登操纵了 2020 年大选。他认为有 FBI 特工参与策划了 1 月 6 日国会大厦袭击事件，这也是特朗普选择他的部分原因。 >> “我会在第一天就关闭胡佛大楼（FBI 总部），第二天把它作为‘深层政府’博物馆重新开放。” >> 我是说，他讲过这样一句话。他确实谈到要关掉调查局总部，把它改建成深层政府博物馆重新开放。我记得那句话，而且我记得局外当时有很多担忧、猜测以及大量关于这家伙到底是谁、该机构在他的领导下到底会变成什么样的疑问。 >> 是的。而且局内部也有大量的怀疑与忧虑。你知道，人们看着这个人，心想：这样一个对我们机构怀有如此敌意的人，到底要怎么领导它？
Original English >> Most importantly, he's somebody who has spun conspiracy theories about the bureau in the past. He says that Joe Biden rigged the 2020 election. He thinks that there were FBI agents involved in planning the January 6th attack on the capital, which is part of why Trump picks him. >> I'd shut down the FBI Hoover building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state. >> I mean, he has this line. He actually talks about shutting down the bureau headquarters and reopening it as a museum of the deep state. I remember that line and I remember that there was a lot of concern and speculation and so many questions from outside the bureau about who this guy was and what the agency would even look like under his leadership. >> Yeah. And there was a lot of skepticism and concern inside the agency, too. You know, people are looking at this guy and they're thinking like, how is this person who is so hostile to our agency going to lead it?
>> “我最先做的事情之一就是上亚马逊买了兼听他的书。我听了一些播客，试图了解他的背景、他的行事风格以及他的立场。” >> 我们采访的其中一位对象是塔尼娅·乌戈里茨（Tanya Ugoritz）。她是 FBI 情报处的负责人，她看到帕特尔走马上任，非常真诚地希望能帮助他取得成功。 >> “因为作为情报处负责人，我的部分职责就是……我负责带领团队为他提供每日早间情报简报。所以同样……” >> 我们应该说明一下，你们并没有塔尼娅或其他消息来源的录音，但我们《The Daily》派了一名制作人安娜·弗利（Anna Foley）回访了你们的一些消息源，并获取了我们在本期节目中播放的音频。 >> 没错。 >> “你觉得他的书怎么样？” >> “嗯，挺有启发性的。我……当然对其中针对 FBI 和司法部的一些贬损性言论感到担忧，但我承认我主要是想寻找关于他对情报看法的一切见解，因为那在当时算我的职责范围。你知道，典型的情报分析师做派。我只是尽量收集更多信息。” 所以，她满怀热忱地前来，但她也很快发现情况并非如常运作。
Original English >> One of the first things I did was go on Amazon and buy his book. I listened to some podcasts and I tried to understand his background, how he approached things, where he was. >> So, one of the people we talked to was Tanya Ugoritz. She was the head of the directorate of intelligence at the FBI and she sees Patel coming in and she very earnestly wants to set him up for success >> because part of my job as the head of intelligence was going to be I was in charge of the team that would deliver his morning intelligence briefing. So the same. >> And we should note that you do not have recordings of Tanya or your other sources, but we did send a producer from the Daily, Anna Foley, to call some of your sources back and get some audio that were playing in this episode. >> That's right. >> What did you think of his book? >> Um, it was enlightening. I um certainly was concerned at some of the disparaging remarks that were directed towards FBI and DOJ, but I'll admit I was mainly reading for any insights on his views on intelligence since that was kind of my responsibility at the time. You know, classic intel analyst. I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can. So, she's coming in super eager, but she can also see quickly that this is not business as usual.
>> “你能描述一下他上任后的第一天吗？你还记得当时对你来说是什么样的吗？” “记得，我参加了我们的早会，所有总部领导层都会集中在一个非常大的会议室里，我们会……向局长以及通常还有副局长作简报。我认为每个人当时都很焦虑，急于见到新局长，看看他会告诉我们什么。而在第一天，他就宣布了调查局的人事调动决定。嗯，一以贯之地……” >> 最先引起人们警觉的一项早期命令，就是要求将数百名外勤特工从华盛顿抽调到各地分局的大动作。这本身不一定是坏主意。许多 FBI 内部人士曾表示：“对，没错。调查局在华盛顿的机构设置过于臃肿，我们分散人员可能会更有效率。”但他们实施的方式显得随意而武断，根本没有经过深思熟虑：我们到底要如何让这些人落地全美各地，并真正让他们能够开展工作？
Original English >> Can you describe his first day like after he came on board? Do you remember what it was like for you? Yes, I was part of the morning meetings that we would have in which all of the headquarters leaders would assemble in a very large conference room and we would um brief the director and typically the deputy director and I think everyone was very anxious um to meet the new director and and to see what he would have to tell us. And on that very first day, he made an announcement about changes in staffing to the bureau. Um, consistently >> and one of the first orders that really got people's attention was a big order to move hundreds of field agents out from Washington into the field offices. And that wasn't necessarily a bad idea. There were a lot of FBI insiders who said, "Yeah, sure. The bureau has become too heavy in DC and we could disperse people and that might be more effective." But the way they did it seemed like kind of random and arbitrary and not a lot of thought was going into, well, how do we actually have these people land all over the country in a way that they're going to really be able to do their jobs?
>> “这表现出对调查局总部层面职能缺乏理解。因此我认为这是我们之后会看到的一种模式的最初体现：先做决定，然后大家手忙脚乱地想办法去落实。” 这向塔尼娅发出了一个信号，即帕特尔不会听取详细简报，也不会按规矩行事。他将径直推进，做出可能影响调查运作方式的生硬突兀决定，而没有调查局习惯提供的那种传统的、非常稳健和深思熟虑的分析。 >> 而且在最初那些日子里，感到担忧的不仅是塔尼娅·乌戈里茨。我是说，这在整个调查局内部是普遍存在的。 “我记得当公开宣布卡什·帕特尔将成为被提名人时，我记得当时首先想到的是：卡什·帕特尔是谁？” >> 我们的另一位消息来源约翰·沙利文（John Sullivan）也曾在情报部门工作，他是那里的处长，他告诉了我们很多关于这段时期的事情以及他在担忧什么。 “即便如此，我当时仍然抱有一丝希望，觉得一个受过良好教育、拥有法学学位且在某种程度上理解刑事司法系统的人，会理解我们所面临的局面。对于‘也许这不会出问题’的想法，我持较为谨慎的乐观态度。而当丹·邦吉诺（Dan Bongino）被选为副局长时，我在那一刻意识到，事情要出大问题了。” 对他来说，也是整个调查局普遍关注的一个重大转折点，就是当帕特尔和特朗普选择丹·邦吉诺作为该机构的二号人物时。他将直接位列帕特尔之下。
Original English >> It showed a lack of understanding of what the bureau at the headquarters level does. And so this was the first instance I would say of a pattern that we would see after that of decisions first and then everybody scramble and figure out how to make it happen later. So this was a signal to Tanya that Patel is not going to be taking detailed briefings and kind of coloring inside the lines. he's going to be moving ahead making maybe abrupt and sudden decisions that affect how investigations are run um without the kind of traditional very sober and considered analysis that the bureau is used to providing. >> And it's not just Tanya Yugaritz who's concerned in these early days. I mean this is widespread all over the bureau. I remember when it was announced publicly that Cash Patel was going to be the nominee and I remember first thinking who is Cash Patel >> and one of our other sources John Sullivan who's also in the intelligence division he was a section chief there told us a lot about this period and what he was worried about. That being said, I still held out a little bit of hope that an educated individual who has a law degree and understands the criminal justice system to some extent would understand what we were faced with. I was more cautiously optimistic in the idea of perhaps this will be okay. With Dan Bonino's selection to be his deputy director, I realized in that moment that it was not going to be okay. And a real turning point for him, a big deal in the bureau generally was when Patel and Trump choose Dan Bongino as the number two in the agency. He's going to be right under Patel.
>> “只是几颗烂苹果而已。是吗？我们来看看那些在 FBI 卷入涉嫌腐败或记录在案腐败的人员名单吧。我们有吉姆·科米（Jim Comey）……” >> 瑞秋，请提醒我们一下邦吉诺是谁，为什么这对约翰·沙利文来说是一个转折点？ 邦吉诺是一名前特勤局特工，后来成为支持特朗普的播客主和福克斯新闻（Fox News）评论员。 >> “这些还只是你们知道的人，但这绝不是一颗烂苹果。这是一整片烂果园。所以，关于……” >> 他同样有阴谋论倾向。他曾把 FBI 特工形容为民主党的暴徒，并呼吁解散该局。 >> “丹·邦吉诺给我的印象是一个真正迷失方向的人。你知道，你会看到他的播客片段和他的一些流媒体内容，特别是他说的某些最耸人听闻的话会赚取点击量，并顺着算法传播。” “彻底整顿 FBI 这个机构早就该进行了。他们已经毁掉了热爱自由的美国人对它的最后一丝信任。”
Original English >> It's just a few bad apples. Is it? Let's just go the list of names of people who've been involved in either alleged corruption or documented corruption at the FBI. We got Jim Comey >> and Rachel, remind us who Bongo is and why was this a turning point for John Sullivan. Bonjino is a former Secret Service agent who'd become a proTrump podcaster and Fox News commentator. >> And those are just the people you know about, but it's not one bad apple. It's a rotten orchard. So, in regards, >> he also has a conspiratorial bent. He described FBI agents as thugs for the Democratic party and called for disbanding the bureau. >> Dan Bonino struck me as somebody who had really lost his way. you know, you would see clips of his podcast and some of his streaming things, particularly some of the most alarming things he would say would get clicks and kind of work their way into algorithms. It's way past time to clean this FBI house up. They have burned every last shred of faith and trust freedom loving Americans had in it.
那么，艾米莉，邦吉诺现在是帕特尔的二号人物了。约翰如何看待他们初期的施政情况？ 他看到这两位新领导者在一起极力追求表面形象。 >> “从我在一次高级会议上了解到的情况来看，总统看到了全美各地正在执行突袭行动的视频片段或照片，因没有看到带有黄色‘FBI’字样的知名 FBI 防弹夹克而感到愤怒。因此……” 初期发生的一件事就是，特朗普显然在看录像或突击照片时，没看到任何防弹夹克，这成了一件令人大为关切的事。 与此同时，卡什·帕特尔发布了自己在匡提科（Quantico）的视频，有点像是在角色扮演兰博（Rambo），置身于爆炸场面以及人员从直升机索降的环境中，全都是为了营造一种“FBI 强悍、他也强悍”的形象。 >> “而这随后剥夺了那些队伍的资源、时间和金钱精力，好让他能在匡提科周边的训练场拍摄内容。对很多人——包括我自己——来说，那些视频看起来完全是幼稚至极。堂堂 FBI 局长以如此不成熟的方式代表这个机构，而我们现在以及过去所做的工作是极其严肃的。”
Original English So, Emily Bino is now Patel's number two. What does John make of their tenure in these early days? He's seeing these two new leaders together make a big push for optics. >> There was from what I learned on a a senior conference was that the president had seen video footage or pictures of the raids that were being conducted around the United States and was angry that he did not see the well-known FBI FL jackets with the yellow FBI on the back. And so one thing that happened early on is that apparently Trump was watching footage or saw a picture of a raid and he didn't see any flack jackets and that becomes something that's of great concern. At the same time, Tash Battel was putting out videos of him at Quantico, kind of cosplaying as Rambo, being around explosions and people repelling from helicopters, all to kind of give this idea of the FBI is tough and he is tough, which then takes away resources and time and money and energy from those teams so he can film something at a training around Quantico and it to many people those videos myself included looked completely childish. The director the leader of the FBI is representing the organization in a juvenile manner and the work that we do and did was supremely serious.
当然，我们很久以前就知道，特朗普总统非常看重事物在电视上的视觉效果。而你们所描述的是，总统的这种关注传递到了帕特尔和邦吉诺身上，导致 FBI 的这两位最高领导人基本上把政治、表面形象甚至 FBI 的公关营销置于工作本身之上。 >> 是的。就像一场表演。你在查理·柯克（Charlie Kirk）遇袭案的调查中可以切实看到这一点。 >> 是的。去年 9 月查理·柯克遭枪击后，帕特尔立即试图冲到行动的最核心，这对 FBI 局长来说是非常罕见的。当类似危机事件发生时，通常最先出现的情况是华盛顿所有高管与大多数外勤办公室召开大型电话会议，而局长通常极少发言，因为是由在现场且了解所需资源的负责人来主持会议。但是，当柯克中弹后的几小时内，200 多名特工连线参加这次会议、正全力搜捕凶手时，帕特尔却接管了会议。他在电话中斥责盐湖城的负责特工，并开始拟定他的社交媒体策略。他指示邦吉诺和外勤办公室该发什么推文。所有这一切占用了大量本该用于调查的时间和精力。
Original English We have known for a very long time, of course, that President Trump cares a lot about how something looks on television. And what you're describing is that that concern from the president is trickling down to Patel and Bonino that basically these two top leaders of the FBI are essentially prioritizing the politics, the optics, and maybe even the marketing of the FBI over the job itself. >> Yeah. It's like a performance. And you really see this with the Charlie Kirk investigation. >> Yeah. After Charlie Kirk was shot in September, Patel immediately tries to jump into the center of the action, which is very unusual for an FBI director. The first thing that often happens when a crisis incident like that takes place is that there's a big call with all of the executives in Washington, most of the field offices, and the director usually says very little because someone who is on the ground and knows what resources they need is leading the call. But when 200 plus agents tune in for this call in the hours after Kirk is shot, they're in the midst of this manhunt trying to find his killer. Patel takes over the call. He's berating the special agent in charge in Salt Lake. And he starts scripting out his social media strategy. He's telling Bonino and the field office what to tweet. And all of this takes a lot of time and attention away from the investigation.
>> 而且他们实际上还犯了错误。他们向外界发布了错误信息，因为他们太急于回答问题和面对媒体了。对特工们来说，这是极度令人沮丧的，对吧？因为他们深知说出不实信息、导致调查偏离方向的危险性。 不过显而易见的是，FBI 确实在乎自身形象，对吧？从其每次破获毒品案件、实施突击搜捕或其他想要炫耀的事件时举办高调新闻发布会的悠久历史来看，这一点非常明确。在本质上，你们所描述的并不是新鲜事。 正如你所描述的，将形象置于首位是有代价的。但我也好奇，这种对表面形象的强调是否存在任何可取之处？ 我们确实听到一些特工表示，他们觉得调查局过去在向美国人民宣传其所做的一切保卫工作方面做得不够好。但是，帕特尔和邦吉诺处理这件事的方式，特工们觉得并没有解决那个问题。特工们被要求在外出执行突袭和逮捕任务时为社交媒体拍照，他们认为这只会破坏行动保密性（OPSEC）和他们自身的人身安全。因此，对我们采访的大多数人来说，这真的像是把政治和表面形象置于使命之上。
Original English >> And they're actually making mistakes. They're putting wrong information out into the world because there is such a rush to answer questions and be in front of the press. And for the Asians, this is deeply frustrating, right? Because they know the danger of saying something that's not true, setting an investigation off course. Obviously though, the FBI does care about its image, right? Like that is very clear from its long history of flashy press conferences whenever it does drug bus or raids or other things that they want to boast about. Spiritually, what you've described is not new. And as you're describing, there is a cost to prioritizing that. But I also wonder whether there are virtues to this kind of emphasis on the optics here. I mean, we did hear from some agents who felt like the bureau had not been good enough in the past at telegraphing all of the work that it was doing to keep the American people safe. But the way that Patel and Bunino were going about this, they didn't feel was solving for that problem. I mean, agents were being told to take pictures for social media while they were out doing raids and making arrests, which they felt just compromised operational security and their safety. So, it seemed to most of the people we spoke to like this was really putting the politics and the optics over the mission.
>> 是的。我是说，你知道，当你完成一次毒品缉捕行动后大肆宣扬并借此邀功是一回事；而在调查刚开始、前线特工和当地执法人员都还不确定真正的嫌疑人是谁时，就对外公布信息——随后这些信息漫天飞舞并被证实是错误的——这完全是另一回事。 是的。我们看到这种对表面形象的执念不仅让局里的特工感到沮丧，也让我们的海外盟友非常沮丧。去年，卡什·帕特尔在英国与我们最密切的情报伙伴一起参加了一次秘密情报会议。作为会议的一部分，他们全体前往温莎城堡与国王会面，期间为所有参会人员拍摄了一张合影。这张照片作为某种纪念品分发，并附有说明：“请勿传播此照片，因为照片中的某些人属于非公开身份”，也就是说他们与情报部门的关联原本应当是保密的。 >> 他们的面孔原本不应出现在媒体上。 没错。但卡什·帕特尔显然执意要把这张照片发到自己的社交媒体上。于是这引发了一场轻微的国际争端：英国方面表示“请不要发布那张照片，你真的不能发”，而他的团队则在推脱反驳“不，我们想发”。他们最终没有发布。但这只是一个例子，反映出当帕特尔如此沉迷于表面形象和社交媒体时，所有人不得不开始应付的那种局面。
Original English >> Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one thing like when you have completed a drug bust to then make a big deal of it and try to take credit. It's another thing in the beginning of an investigation when the agents on the ground and local law enforcement are not sure who the correct suspects are to be putting out information into the world which then you know swirls everywhere and can turn out to be wrong. Yeah. And we saw that this focus on optics wasn't only frustrating agents at the bureau it was really frustrating our allies abroad. Cash Patel attended a secret intelligence conference last year in the UK with some of our closest intelligence partners. And as part of the conference, they all went to Windsor Castle for a meeting with the king where a photograph was taken of all the participants. And it was sent around as a kind of keepsake with instructions, please don't share this because some of the people in that photo were non-disclosed, meaning that their affiliation with the intelligence services was supposed to be a secret. >> Their faces were not supposed to be in the press. Correct. But Cash Patel is apparently determined to put this photo out on his social media. And so it creates this minor international incident where the British are saying, "Please don't post that photo. You really can't." And his team is kind of pushing back. No, we want to put it out. They didn't end up putting it out. But it's just an example of the kind of thing that everyone started to have to deal with when Patel was so focused on optics and social media.
面对这些逸闻爆料，帕特尔或 FBI 是如何回应的？ 帕特尔和邦吉诺都拒绝了我们的采访请求，但 FBI 发言人本·威廉姆森（Ben Williamson）就我们的报道发来了一份通用评论。我可以读给你听： >> 请念。 >> 他说：“这篇报道是对脱离实际的匿名消息源所提供的虚假叙事、臆测和揣测的炒作。”而且显而易见的是，艾米莉，你的报道中有很多实名消息源。 展现某种特定形象的渴望，从你们的报道来看，似乎确实是由一个事实驱动的：邦吉诺和帕特尔的目标受众其实只有一个人，那就是总统。而正如你们的报道所展示的，这正是最终推动我们正在讨论的这种领导风格的根本原因。 是的。我们采访的人越多就越清楚地发现，政治和这些形象问题正在渗透该机构的一切，切实影响着一线特工和分析师的日常工作。 我们马上回来。
Original English What did Patel or the FBI have to say in response to these anecdotes? Both Patel and Bunino declined our request for interviews, but the FBI spokesman, Ben Williamson, sent us a general comment in response to our reporting. And I can read it to you, >> please. >> He said, "This story is a regurgitation of fake narratives, conjecture, and speculation from anonymous sources who are disconnected from reality." And to state the obvious, there are plenty of named sources in your story, Emily. The desire to project a certain type of image though that seems like from your reporting that was really driven by the fact that Bonino and Patel had an audience of exactly one person, right? The president and as your reporting showed that's what was ultimately driving this leadership style that we're talking about. Yeah. The more people we talked to, the more clear it became that politics and these questions of image were permeating everything about the agency and really affecting the work every day of the agents and analysts on the ground. We'll be right back.
### 一线人员的处境与政治清洗 瑞秋，这种领导风格的转变究竟是如何波及到普通的 FBI 基层雇员的？ 我们在报道中注意到了几个大趋势，其中之一是特工和分析师的日常工作在多大程度上因特朗普政府对移民问题的重视而被重塑。FBI 传统上在移民执法中不扮演任何角色，但在全美各地，特工和分析师纷纷被从正常职责中抽调出来协助推进移民行动。我采访了洛杉矶的一位分析师，去年特朗普政府在那里大举推进移民执法时，她对此尤为关切。她的经历让我们非常直观地了解了这场转变的真实样貌。 那么，请跟我们讲讲那个故事。 >> 这位分析师名叫吉尔·菲尔兹（Jill Fields）。 “我丈夫加入了调查局，他在局里的第一周回到家对我说：‘嘿，有一份你绝对会非常喜欢的工作，叫作情报分析师。’他跟我讲得越多，我就越觉得：‘快给我报名，我要加入。’” >> 吉尔是那种真正把 FBI 当作自己生活的特工之一。她在那里工作，她的丈夫也在那里工作，他们是坚定的信仰者。
Original English Rachel, how does the change in leadership style actually trickle down to the rank and file FBI employees? Well, there were a couple of big trends that we noticed in our reporting, and one of them was how much the day-to-day work of agents and analysts was being transformed by the Trump administration's emphasis on immigration. The FBI traditionally plays no role in immigration enforcement, but all over the country, agents and analysts were being reassigned from their normal duties to help with the immigration push. So, I spoke to one analyst in Los Angeles who became particularly concerned about this when the Trump administration did a big immigration push there last year. And her story gives us some really good insight into what this transformation really looked like. So, tell us that story. >> So, this was an analyst named Jill Fields. My husband joined the bureau and his first week at the bureau, he came home and he said to me, "Hey, there's this job that you would really, really like. It's called an intelligence analyst." And the more he told me about it, the more I was like, "Sign me up. I'm in." >> Jill was one of those agents for whom the FBI was really her life. She worked there, her husband worked there. They were true believers.
>> “等我加入的时候，我已经有一个三岁半的孩子了。所以我们给他买了一件小小的 FBI 夹克。他们有写着‘FBI’的连帽小夹克，还给他办了‘初级特工证’。他太可爱了，他会穿上衣服，戴上小墨镜，走向别人展示‘砰，FBI’，亮出他的小初级特工证。真的很可爱。他……” >> 吉尔是一名在洛杉矶负责暴力犯罪调查的分析师，那确实是她的专业领域。但随着特朗普政府的驱逐议程在去年初加速推进，她和大量其他特工及分析师突然被指派协助移民行动，而那是他们毫无经验的领域。 “我当时压力非常大，因为我不得不把分析师从不同的团队中抽调出来……” >> 特工们被指派去参与移民执法，从而脱离了职务犯罪、网络犯罪、白领犯罪、毒品贩运、恐怖主义等工作，而这些在拜登政府以及此前的数十年里一直都是 FBI 的核心重点。 “他们要求指挥所配备的人员是平时的三倍。我当时就有后勤方面的担忧，而当我询问时得到的答复是：‘好吧，我们这样做是为了表面形象，我们必须给总统做做样子。’”
Original English >> By the time I got in, I had a three and a halfyear-old. So, we got him a little FBI jacket. They had the little hoodie jackets that says FBI and got him the junior agent creds. And he was so cute because he would he would put them on then he'd put little sunglasses on and he'd go to people and he'd be like pow FBI and like show his little his little junior agent creds. He was it was really cute. He had >> Jill was an analyst who worked on violent crime in LA and that was really her area of expertise. But then as the Trump administration's deportation agenda ramps up early last year, she and a whole host of other agents and analysts suddenly get tasked to help with the immigration push, something they had really no experience in. I was stressed out because I was having to pull analysts off of different teams to >> agents were being assigned to immigration enforcement and pulled away from things like public corruption, cyber crime, white collar crime, drug trafficking, terrorism, things that under the Biden administration and for decades before had been core priorities of the FBI. They wanted three times as many people working the command post than we would normally have. And I just had logistical concerns and when asked it was, well, we've got to do this for optics. We've got to make a show for the president.
>> 于是吉尔已经感到沮丧了，随后她又被要求去做一件她觉得踩了自己红线的事。 “一群抗议者当时在拍摄特工，他们拿着扩音器，呼吁大家待在室内，因为 ICE 正在该区域执法。当天晚些时候，我们被要求进行初步评估审查。” 她被要求安排团队成员对抗议者进行“初步评估”，这实际上是走向刑事调查的第一步。 她的团队成员被要求查看一段手机视频，主管声称该视频显示反 ICE 抗议者阻碍逮捕行动。 >> “当时有些口角争执，但抗议者留在原地，并没有跨过特工划定的界限。” 他们的判断是抗议者没有做错任何事。调查团队认定抗议者是在行使其第一宪法修正案赋予的权利。 >> 于是他们表示不会推进这项调查，但他们得到的回复是无论如何都必须立案。 >> “这太荒谬了。如果是在平时，这就像是你参加法律培训考试时会遇到的测试场景，题目会写‘有人指示你启动这项调查，你会怎么做？’而答案应该是‘你不能立案，因为这是受第一修正案保护的活动’。” 吉尔认为这个命令从何而来？ 她虽然是从她的主管那里接到要求的，但她很清楚压力来自更上方。
Original English >> So Jill is already frustrated and then she gets asked to do something that she feels crosses a red line for her. A group of protesters had been filming agents. They had a megaphone. They were telling people to stay indoors because ICE was in the area. And later that day, we were asked to run preassessment checks. She's asked to have members of her team run a preassessment on protesters, which is essentially the first step toward a criminal investigation. and members of her team had been asked to take a look at a cell phone video that their supervisors claimed showed anti-ICE protesters impeding an arrest. >> There was a little bit of bickering, but the protesters remained where they were. They didn't cross the line that the agent had put out there. Their determination is that the protesters have done nothing wrong. the investigative team had determined that the protesters were exercising their first amendment rights and >> and so they say we're not going to go forward with this investigation and they're told you have to open one anyway. >> It was so ludicrous. It's almost like this would have been in normal times. This would have been your scenario in your in your legal training that you would take a test on and it would be you know so you've been told to open this investigation what do you do and the answer would be you do not because this is first amendment protected activity and where did Jill understand that order to be coming from she was getting the request from her supervisor but it was clear to her that there was pressure coming from the up.
我想确保我们在这里听起来不显得天真，并承认 FBI 在侵犯公民宪法权利方面有着悠久的历史——例如对民众进行监控，这并非新鲜概念。那么，吉尔被要求做的事情与那些历史是如何契合的，又有什么不同呢？ 这是一个很好的问题。有几个人向我形容 FBI 处于一种“后胡佛时代的心态”。意思是说，他们非常清楚特别是在 50 年代、60 年代和 70 年代，调查局通过调查大量没有犯罪的人而侵犯美国公民权利的那些方式。这绝不是说自那以后他们的记录就完美无缺了，9·11 事件后对穆斯林美国人的对待就是一个例子。但在匡提科的 FBI 训练基地，他们被反复灌输要努力在执行任务与保护美国公民权利之间保持平衡。而吉尔觉得这种平衡努力现在被彻底忽视了。 于是她说了“不”，她进行了抵制。 “我被告知我不能说不。而且有人对我说：‘好吧，你可以选择今天被解雇，也可以在 40 年后另一个政府上台并开始调查谁违法、谁遵从默许时被解雇。’” 她得到的答复是：“你知道的，吉尔，你可以现在被开除，也可以等新一届政府上台调查侵犯宪法权利的行为时被开除。”这在某种意义上是一种承认：我们知道这是错的，但我们仍要求你去做；如果你不做，就会承担后果。 那么她后来怎样了？ >> 嗯，首先她的工作组被从她手中夺走，她被重新分配了岗位。 >> “我也被告知我成了一个问题人物。” 她被告知“七楼”已经盯上她了。“七楼”指的是华盛顿胡佛大厦局长办公的地方。 >> “随之而来的压力，以及……” >> 所以她知道自己正在被监视。 >> “我那时明白，我已经干不下去了。我很担忧……” >> 于是她决定离开。
Original English I want to make sure that we're not sounding naive here and acknowledge that the FBI has a long history of doing things that violate citizens constitutional rights. For instance, conducting surveillance on people. This is not a new concept. So, how did what Jill was asked to do fit into that or differ from that? That's a great question. Several people described the FBI to me to be in a kind of posth Hoover mindset. Meaning that they were very aware of the ways that particularly in the 50s,60s, and 70s the bureau had violated American civil rights by investigating huge numbers of people who had committed no crime. And that's not to say that since then their track record has been perfect by any means. The treatment of Muslim Americans after 911 is just one example. But it's drilled into them at Quanico, the FBI training academy, to try to balance the mission with American civil rights. And Jill felt like that effort was being now completely ignored. And so she says no. She pushes back. I was told I couldn't say no. And I was told, well, you can get fired today or you can get fired in 40 years when another administration comes in and starts looking and seeing who had violated the law and who had followed and acquiesced. She's told in response, you know, Jill, you can get fired now or you can get fired when someone a new administration comes in and starts looking into constitutional violations. It was in a sense an admission that we know this is wrong. We're asking you to do it anyway and if you don't do it, there will be consequences. So what happens to her? >> Well, first her squad gets taken away from her. She gets reassigned. >> I was also told that I was a problem and she's told that the seventh floor is aware of her. The seventh floor means the where the director sits in the Hoover building in Washington. >> The stress that came with that and >> so she knows that she's being monitored. >> I knew at that point I I was done. I was worried >> and she decides to leave.
>> “当我决定离开时，我记得自己很伤心……收拾好我最后的行李，和我的朋友们一起走向我的车装箱。这太痛苦了，因为我热爱我的工作。我热爱我们所做的事情，而得知一切都变了这么多、以至于我无法继续从事我所热爱的这份工作，这让人心痛。” 所以，我们看到在一些非常具体的方面，有些特工不仅脱离了他们的常规工作，甚至被迫离开。 >> 是的，我们听到了很多这样的例子。但从该局在政治上重新调整方向的角度来看，我们观察到的另一个重大动态是：人们因为过去的本职工作现在遭到排斥而被扫地出门。 也许你还记得，帕特尔在刚被选定这份工作时就谈到要清洗该机构，开除任何在过去参与过调查前总统的员工。而被卷入那场搜捕的人员之一就是塔尼娅。 “当时我和丈夫在弗吉尼亚海滩度假，我的一位副手在我离开期间负责接替我的工作。我和她进行了例行沟通，想看看是否有任何需要我关注的重大事项。而在向我强调的事项中有一件是：该部门在我休假期间收到了关于 FBI 于 2020 年 9 月发布的一份情报的问询。” 现在我们必须回到 2020 年以及当时对外国干预大选的所有担忧。在那个时候，FBI 发布了一份情报报告，其中包含一条二手线索，称中国政府当时正在制造假身份证件，以便在 2020 年大选中为乔·拜登投票。
Original English >> When I decided to leave, I remember being sad and packing up the last of my things, walking with my friends to my car to put my boxes up. It's so painful because I loved my job. I loved what we were doing and it just it it hurt to know that things had changed so much that I was not going to be able to continue doing the job that I loved. So, we're seeing in some very tangible ways there are agents that are not only being taken away from their typical work, but they are also being driven to leave. >> Yeah, we heard a lot of examples of this. But the other big dynamic we observed in terms of the political reorientation of the bureau was that people were being pushed out because their work from the past was now being viewed with disfavor. So maybe you remember this Patel in the beginning when he got chosen for his job talked about purging the agency of any employees who'd worked on investigating the president in the past. And one of the people who got swept up in that search was Tanya. I was on vacation with my husband in Virginia Beach and one of my deputies was, you know, covering for me while I was away. I had a routine check-in with her just to see if there was anything significant that needed my attention. And one of the items highlighted for me was that, you know, the division in my absence had received questions about a piece of intelligence that the FBI published in September 2020. So, so now we have to go back to 2020 and all the fears about foreign influence in the election. And at that time, the FBI issued an intelligence report that contained a secondhand tip that the Chinese government was creating fake IDs to cast votes for Joe Biden in the 2020 election.
>> 局内对这份情报的可信度存在许多质疑和争论。FBI 最终撤回了该报告。但现在快进到 2025 年。 共和党籍参议员、参议院司法委员会主席查克·格拉斯利（Chuck Grassley）正在行使监督权，并索要大量的 FBI 内部文件。他正在搜寻他眼中的可疑劣迹——即拜登任总统期间 FBI 所做的事情。 >> 比如他们可能没有妥善调查的事情。 >> 没错。于是 FBI 向格拉斯利提供了关于这份涉及中国与 2020 年大选的报告的相关电子邮件。而在其中一封邮件中，一名 FBI 雇员错误地将塔尼娅指认为下令撤回该报告的官员。 >> “我一方面试图查清事实真相，了解为什么我的名字会与此事扯上关系，另一方面也在思考我需要找谁沟通这个问题。” >> 于是她与丹·邦吉诺见了面。 >> “他承认他听说过这件事，并且知情。但是，他评论称这件事已经超出他的管辖范围了。我当时并不完全明白那是什么意思，因为他是 FBI 的二号官员。” >> 第二天下午，她就被停职停薪（administrative leave）。
Original English >> And there are a lot of questions in the bureau of debate about the credibility of this intelligence. The FBI ultimately withdrew this report. But then now fast forward to 2025. Senator Chuck Grassley, who's the Republican senator who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee, he's conducting oversight and he's asking for lots of internal FBI documents. He's on a hunt for what he sees as like suspect bad things the FBI was doing when Biden was president. >> Things they didn't properly investigate perhaps. >> Exactly. And so the FBI gives Grassly emails about this report about the Chinese and the 2020 election. And in one of the emails, an FBI employee wrongly identified Tanya as the official who had ordered this report to be withdrawn. >> I'm both trying to get to the bottom of it in terms of why is my name associated with this and also thinking who do I need to talk to about it? >> And so then she meets with Dan Bonino. >> He acknowledged that, you know, he had heard about this and he was aware of it. Um, but he commented that the matter was out of his hands and I didn't really understand what that meant because he was the number two official in the FBI. >> And the next afternoon, she was placed on administrative leave.
>> “我是一个非常坚忍沉着的人，我能承受很多，这也是过去 24 年里让我在工作中取得成功的部分原因。但那一刻，我眼中含着泪水。” 随后对整份现场报告以及撤回原因展开了内部调查。 >> “FBI 的督察处（inspection division）联系了我，他们……” >> 她接受了两次讯问。 >> “测谎从来都不是愉快的经历。” >> 他们对她进行了测谎。 >> 之后她被叫去商讨她的去向选择，她问：“那么，这项审查有什么发现？”她被告知审查未发现任何不当行为——她没有任何不当行为，与报告相关的调查也无任何违规。 “所以我问：‘既然如此，我为什么不能回到我之前的职位？’因为……” >> 于是她说：“好吧，如果审查确认我没做错任何事，我能拿回我的工作吗？”对吧？ >> 然后他们回答：“嗯，你是一名高级行政人员，所以你的职位由局长自由裁量，也就是由帕特尔决定。”随后她被告知：不，她不能复职。她将被调到别处的另一个外勤办公室，她将被降职。
Original English >> I'm a pretty stoic person. I can handle a lot and it's part of what's made me successful in my job over the past 24 years. But at that moment, I had tears in my eyes. And >> then there's going to be an internal investigation of this whole field report and why it was withdrew. >> The FBI's inspection division contacted me and they were the >> she's interviewed twice. >> So a polygraph's never pleasant. >> They polygraph her >> and then she gets called in to discuss her options and she asks, "Well, what did this review find?" And she's told that the review found no misconduct, not by her or anything related to the report. And so I asked,"Well, if that's the case, why can't I return to my previous position?" Because, >> so then she says, "Well, okay, if the refuse found that I did nothing wrong, can I have my job back?" Right? >> And then they say, "Well, you're a senior executive, and so your position is at the discretion of the director, meaning of Patel." And then she's told, "No, she cannot have her job back. She's going to be transferred somewhere else to another field office. She's going to be demoted."
>> “最终，我决定离开。” 于是她离开了该机构，带走了一整个职业生涯累积的丰富经验。这是一位在极高层级、把毕生工作精力都奉献给 FBI 的人。 >> “如此随意地将这样的人抛弃，就好像他们是用过的纸巾一样，完全不考虑该机构会失去什么。这种粗暴草率的方式，与在 FBI 领导职位上所应有的信任与责任极不相称。” >> 所以，帕特尔和邦吉诺实际上是在传递信号：我们需要有人人头落地，而究竟是谁的人头并不一定重要。 >> 是的，她成了这一整套错综复杂故事的替罪羊。对。并不是说有人认定那份关于中国试图为拜登窃取选票的报告属实。她被告知的是：FBI……帕特尔不想去面对参议员格拉斯利并解释说，那个在邮件中被指认、单看邮件像是下令撤回报告的人，目前正担任 FBI 的情报负责人。 你们是否听说过其他因类似的政治压力而被排挤出局的 FBI 雇员？
Original English >> Ultimately, I decided to leave. And so she left the agency taking with her a whole career's worth of experience. This is someone at a very high level who had spent her entire work life at the FBI. >> To so casually discard such people as if they were like a used up tissue, you know, with no consideration for what the organization would be losing. It is careless in a way that is not fitting with the level of trust and responsibility of the leadership positions in the FBI. >> So effectively what Patel and Bonjino are telegraphing is we need heads to roll and it doesn't necessarily matter whose heads. >> Yes, she is the scapegoat for this whole convoluted story. Right. It's not that anyone is saying that this report about the Chinese trying to steal votes for Biden was true. What she is told is that the FBI that Patel does not want to go to Senator Grassly and explain that the person who was named in this email who from just that email looks like they withdrew the report is currently the head of intelligence for the FBI. Did you hear about any other FBI employees that got pushed out because of similar political pressure?
>> 是的，我们听说了。我认为我们看到的令人震惊的现象之一是，对某些员工来说，导致他们被排挤的并不是他们采取的某个具体行为——比如并不是某封特定的电子邮件。而是他们被指派负责的重大案件。他们的整个业务领域——那些曾经让他们在 FBI 极具价值的工作——现在反过来对他们不利，使他们陷入脆弱境地。有数千名特工曾参与调查 1 月 6 日事件，还有很多人曾参与调查针对特朗普总统的四项调查。因此现在他们担心：我过去所做的工作，因为当时被指派负责，现在会让我陷入险境吗？我们采访过的一个处于这种境地的人是布莱尔·托尔曼（Blair Tolman）。 >> “有一段时间，我每天都在看新闻，就是想看看有什么可能会导致我被解雇。那不是我想过的生活方式。任何人都不应该……” >> 在特朗普开启第二任期之前，布莱尔曾是一个名为 CR-15 的精英职务犯罪调查组的特别主管特工。 “我们当时负责调查滥用职权的政府雇员。此外，我们还经办国会案件、参议院案件、司法案件。所以……” >> 而那个部门正是针对特朗普总统是否干预 2020 年大选开展调查的单位。
Original English >> Yes, we did. And I think one of the striking things we saw was that for some employees, it wasn't one discreet action they took that got them pushed out. Like not one single email. It was the major cases they were assigned to. Their whole line of work, like the things that had made them valuable to the FBI before were now being held against them and making them vulnerable. There are thousands of agents who'd worked on the January 6 investigations and plenty who'd also worked on the four investigations of President Trump. So now they're worrying, is this work that I did before, because I was assigned to it going to put me in jeopardy? And one of the people we talked to who was in that position was Blair Tolman. >> There was a period of time where I was watching the news every day just to see, you know, what could lead up to my potential termination. That's not a way that I want to live my life. It's not how anybody >> So before Trump took office for his second term, Blair had been the supervisory special agent of this elite public corruption unit called CR15 period. And so we were investigating government employees who were misusing their position. And then on top of that, we also worked congressional cases, Senate cases, judicial cases. So, >> and that was the unit that conducted the investigation against President Trump about whether he interfered in the 2020 election.
>> “我想我当时就知道这项调查会受到极大的关注，但从必须遵守规则、遵守政策、某些事情必须获得批准的角度来说，它与我们经办的其他任何案件并没有不同。案件就是案件。” 随后快进到 2025 年，这项代号为“北极霜”（Arctic Frost）的调查成了特朗普以及像格拉斯利参议员这类批评者的众矢之的。于是，布莱尔眼睁睁看着她当时因精湛业务技能、极高独立性和绝对非党派立场而挑选来执行这一任务的特工们开始被解雇。 “看到两位杰出的人被解雇令人痛心……” >> 她只是在等待他们冲着自己下手，当然，他们最终确实找上了她。 >> “发给我的信上说，由于我‘缺乏判断力和公正性，导致政府被政治武器化’。对我来说，这意味着：你参与了这项调查，我们要因此解雇你。我当时脑海里一直在想：你知道，我拥有的、我热爱的这种生活，我能帮助的那些人，我能为人们争取到的正义，都结束了。”
Original English >> I think I knew that there was going to be a lot of um eyes on the investigation, but it wasn't any different than anything else we worked in the sense that you need to follow the rules, you need to follow policies, you have to get approval for certain things. Like the case is a case. Then now fast forward to 2025 and that investigation which is called Arctic Frost becomes a huge target for Trump and also for critics like Senator Grassley. So Blair is watching some of the agents who she picked for this assignment because of their great skill because she saw them as very independent and utterly nonpartisan. They're starting to get fired. It was hard to see two outstanding people terminated >> and she's just kind of waiting for them to come for her and then of course they do. >> My letter said you know due to my lack of judgment and lack of impartiality that led to the political weaponization of the government and to me what that meant was you were on this investigation and uh we're firing you for it. I just kept thinking, you know, this this life that I had that I enjoyed, that I loved, the people that I was able to help, the justice that I was able to get for individuals is over.
显然，所有这一切对直接受到影响的人——那些以某种形式被强迫离开的特工来说，都是极其痛苦的。但我也想知道，对于那些留下的人，这种环境对他们以及对 FBI 的实际工作产生了怎样的影响？ 我们从很多人那里听说，局里现在存在一种恐惧和偏执的文化。自帕特尔出任局长以来，已有数十人被解雇，而且解雇还在继续。因此，人们非常担心承担可能被视为具有政治色彩的任务，因为你根本无法确定，下一届政府上台后，如果他们不喜欢你曾经负责的事情，那是否会成为你被赶走的理由。 >> 所以，如果你收到了关于腐败的举报线索，甚至是来自被视为现政府盟友的人的恐怖威胁线索，站出来可能会对你的职业生涯造成极大的损失。因此你可能会保持沉默，而这意味着腐败增多，美国人民的安全感降低。这同样意味着调查局的整个使命已被侵蚀败坏。 你知道，我们之前谈到过你们采访了在 FBI 工作的员工，他们确实表示 FBI 需要更好的公关，部分特工分流到外勤办公室也是好事。进一步说，这让我不禁想问，综合你们报道的所有这些变化来看，在你们交谈过的 FBI 工作人员中，是否有人其实支持该机构正在前行的方向？ 我们采访的每个人都承认调查局并不完美，他们表示对改革持开放态度。许多人觉得它过于头重脚轻、过于缓慢，官僚主义严重；但这些改变的推行方式让他们担心失去调查局根本的独立性，并担心这正在让国家变得不那么安全。
Original English Obviously, all of this is extremely distressing to the people that it is directly affected, these agents who are being forced to leave in some way. But I do wonder also about the people that are being left behind and what kind of impact this environment has on them and of the actual work of the FBI. We heard from a lot of people that there's now a culture of fear in the bureau of paranoia. Dozens of people have been fired by Patel since he became director and the firings continue. So people are really concerned about taking on assignments that might be viewed as political because you're just not sure whether the next administration who comes into office if they don't like something that you worked on whether that's now going to be cause for you to be pushed out. >> So if you got a tip that there was corruption or even a terrorist threat from someone who was perceived as an ally of this administration, it could be really costly to your career to come forward. And so you might stay quiet and that means that there's more corruption and Americans are less safe. It also just means that the whole mission of the bureau has been corrupted. You know, we talked earlier about the fact that the two of you did interview people who worked at the FBI who did say that the FBI needs better PR, that it's good that some of these agents move out to field offices. And just to take that a step further, it makes me wonder whether taking all of the changes that you've reported on together, were there people that you spoke with who worked at the FBI that were actually in favor of the direction it was going? Everyone we spoke to would acknowledge that the bureau isn't perfect and they would say they're open to reforms. A lot of people felt that it was too topheavy, too slow. there was a lot of bureaucracy, but the way that these changes were being carried out made them concerned about losing the bureau's fundamental independence and that they were making the country less safe.
### 法律反击与未来不确定性 所以归根结底，你们所描述的是一个在卡什·帕特尔领导下真正被彻底颠覆的机构。而在你们的报道刊发后，关于该机构陷入混乱的后续报道也不断出现。就在上周，《大西洋月刊》（The Atlantic）发表了一篇文章，指控帕特尔酗酒等行为。需要指出的是，帕特尔随后对《大西洋月刊》提起了诽谤诉讼。那么考虑到所有这些争议交织在一起，我只是想问，你们是否感觉到帕特尔即将下台？ 这无法确切知晓。帕特尔绝对在竭尽全力讨好他的上司以保住职位。就在本周，他还承诺很快将展开与 2020 年大选相关的逮捕行动。而白宫也一直在发表公开声明表示支持。但话虽如此，也有报道称，在帕特尔被看到在奥运会上与美国男子冰球队饮酒庆祝后，特朗普曾致电帕特尔表达不满。因此目前信号喜忧参半。我们应该指出，丹·邦吉诺今年已因无关原因离开了调查局。但至于帕特尔，我们只能拭目以待。 而在我们的报道发表后发生的另一件耐人寻味的事是：布莱尔·托尔曼成了一起针对 FBI 的新诉讼的主要原告之一。 >> “这是为了追究政府做正确事情的责任。就像我们要求自己恪尽职守做正确事情一样。” >> 这起诉讼旨在质疑这些被解雇的行为，原告称解雇是政治清洗的一部分。 >> “是的，我们要求复职。我们要求获得在这个过程中被剥夺的正当法律程序。这确实是诉讼的目标之一。当然，我从来不去想那一部分，因为对我来说，这起诉讼也是为了确保其他人现在和将来能受到保护。”
Original English So ultimately, what you are describing is an agency that's really been turned upside down under Cash Patel's leadership. And since your reporting came out, there's been additional reporting about how the agency has been in turmoil. Just last week, The Atlantic published an article that among other things accused Patel of excessive drinking. And we should note Patel since filed a lawsuit against The Atlantic accusing it of defamation. So given all of these controversies put together, I just wonder whether you have any sense that Patel is on the way out. It's impossible to know for sure. Patel is definitely doing everything he can to please his boss and keep his job. Just this week, he promised that arrests related to the 2020 election would be happening soon. And the White House has been issuing public statements of support. But that said, there's been some reporting that Trump called Patel to express his displeasure after he was seen celebrating with alcohol with the US men's hockey team at the Olympics. So, there have been mixed signals. Dan Bonino, we should note, has left the bureau this year for unrelated reasons. But, as for Patel, we'll just have to wait and see. And another interesting thing that's happened since our piece came out is that Blair Tolman is one of the leading plaintiffs in a new lawsuit against the FBI. >> It's about holding the government accountable for doing the right thing. The way we hold ourselves accountable for doing the right thing. >> And this is a lawsuit that is challenging the dismissals that have been part of what the plaintiffs say is a political purge. >> Yes, we are seeking reinstatement. We are seeking the due process that we were not afforded during this process. That is one of the goals of the lawsuit. Absolutely. Um I just never think about that part because to me the lawsuit is also about making sure that others are protected now and in the future.
我认为许多特工觉得法院和媒体是他们传达自己对 FBI 内部问题看法的最后公开途径。很多人对我们说：“我在政府部门工作了 20 年、30 年，以前从未接受过媒体采访，但他们觉得内部监督机制、监察部门、向主管反映情况这些渠道要么已被关闭，要么无法正常运作。”因此，这个一贯严谨守秘的机构的雇员们非常愿意就这篇报道与我们交谈，因为他们毕生致力于保护美国人安全的这项使命，他们担心正在受到严重削弱。 “我认为美国人民传达的信息是他们希望变革。他们希望体制受到挑战，并在很多方面进行改革。但是，改革像 FBI 这样的机构的方式，绝不是切除其中的大块组成部分并寄希望于它能重新长得更好。某些威胁根本没有得到应对，因为没有人去处理它们。这只会让我质疑：我们到底遗漏了什么？我们没有看到哪些威胁？我不知道在这之后该如何重建。我认为如果我们还能保持安全，那将是非常幸运的，但我对被遗漏的隐患感到担忧。” 艾米莉·巴泽隆、瑞秋·波瑟，非常感谢二位的工作，也感谢你们来到节目中。 >> 感谢邀请我们。 非常感谢，瑞秋。 我们马上回来。
Original English I think many agents feel that the courts and the media are really the last open avenues for them to convey their sense of what is going wrong within the FBI. So many people said to us, "I've worked in government for 20, 30 years. I've never spoken to the media before, but they feel that the internal checks, the watchd dogs, speaking to their supervisors, either those channels have been shut down or they're not functioning properly." And so employees of this typically buttoned up, secretive agency were really willing to speak to us for this story because the mission that they had dedicated their lives to keeping Americans safe, they worry as being severely compromised. I think what the American people signaled they wanted was they wanted change. They wanted the system to be challenged and in a lot of ways reformed. But the ways in which you change an organization like the FBI are not by cutting off chunks of it and hoping that it grows back better. Certain threats just aren't getting addressed because there's no one there to work them. And it just makes me question what are we missing? What threats are we not seeing? I don't know how we rebuild after this. I think we're going to be very fortunate if we stay safe, but I worry about what is being missed. Emily Baslon, Rachel Poser, thank you both so much for your work and for being here. >> Thank you for having us. Thanks so much, Rachel. We'll be right back.
### 今日其他要闻 以下是您今天还需要了解的其他新闻： 周二下午，特朗普总统表示，他在距离与伊朗停火协议到期仅剩数小时之际延长了停火协议。 此前，副总统 J.D. 万斯（JD Vance）搁置了前往巴基斯坦参加第二轮停火谈判的行程。 这次延期与总统当天早些时候的态度截然不同，他当时告诉 CNBC，如果伊朗不同意美国的要求，引述其原话，“我预计将进行轰炸”。 弗吉尼亚州选民批准了一项重划该州国会选区地图以利于民主党的方案，在期中选举前为该党提供了重大助力。该方案可能会在 11 月的选举中消除该州共和党持有的五个席位中的四个。 在共和党人去年通过在德克萨斯州等地重划地图建立起优势之后，民主党的这一胜利实际上使全国范围内的“杰利蝾螈”（不公正选区划分）之争形成了平局。 今天的节目由安娜·弗利和杰克·迪多罗（Jack D'Isidoro）制作，穆吉·扎德（Mooj Zadie）协助。由罗布·齐普科（Rob Szypko）和德文·泰勒（Devon Taylor）编辑，配乐由丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）、黛安·黄（Diane Wong）、马里恩·洛萨诺（Marion Lozano）和帕特·麦卡斯克（Pat McCusker）创作。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 制作。本期节目由克里斯·伍德（Chris Wood）进行工程混音。 这就是今天的《The Daily》。我是瑞秋·亚伯拉罕斯，明天见。
Original English Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday afternoon, President Trump said that he was extending a ceasefire with Iran just hours before it was set to expire. The announcement came after Vice President JD Vance put his trip to Pakistan for a second round of ceasefire talks on hold. The extension was a departure from the president's posture earlier in the day when he told CNBC that if Iran did not agree to US demands, quote, I expect to be bombing. And Virginia voters approved a plan to gerrymander the state's congressional map to favor Democrats, giving the party a significant boost before the midterms. The plan could eliminate four of the state's five Republican held seats for the November election. The win by Democrats effectively brings the nationwide gerrymandering war to a draw after Republicans built an advantage last year when they redrew maps in Texas and elsewhere. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and Jack Didoro with help from Mooj Zadei. It was edited by Rob Zipco and Devon Taylor and contains music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, Marian Lozano, and Pat McCusker. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.