---
author: The Diary Of A CEO
date: '2026-10-22'
guest: ''
layout: post.njk
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x9dkYIRb58
speaker: The Diary Of A CEO
tags:
- conflict-resolution
- humanitarian-crisis
- leadership
- international-relations
title: 泽连斯基访谈：战争中的坚守、人道主义危机与和平路径
summary: 本文记录了泽连斯基总统关于俄乌战争的深度访谈。他回顾了战争初期的坚守与拒绝撤离的决定，描述了布恰及儿童遇难的惨痛经历，并探讨了个人心理负担。此外，文章涉及对特朗普政府外交政策的批评，以及关于结束战争现实路径的思考。
insight: ''
draft: true
series: ''
category: geopolitics
area: geopolitics
project: []
people:
- 泽连斯基
- 拜登
- 特朗普
- 普京
companies_orgs: []
products_models: []
media_books: []
status: evergreen
---
### 战争爆发与坚守
泽连斯基总统，你最近怎么样？
Original English
President Zalinski, how are you doing?
**>>**: 嗯，挺难的。
Original English
**>>**: Well, it's hard.
**>>**: 呃，说实话，我呃睡不着。这是一种巨大的、可怕的痛苦，我不会希望任何人承受这种痛苦。
Original English
**>>**: Uh, I'll be honest. I uh don't sleep. It's a huge, terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone.
**>>**: 我能看到你眼里的泪水。
Original English
**>>**: I can see the tears in your eyes.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 战争始于22年2月24日。我没想到会有全面入侵。我和家人在一起，告诉我妻子，跟孩子们说战争开始了。我爱你们，我会给你们打电话，然后就跑上去了。
Original English
**>>**: The war started February 24th of 22. I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion. I was with my family, told my wife that to the kids the war has started. I love you, I'll call you and ran up.
**>>**: 卫星图像拍到了通往基辅的长达64公里的庞大俄罗斯军用车队。
Original English
**>>**: Satellite imagery captured a massive 64 km long Russian military convoy leading to Kiev.
**>>**: 想象一下20万人正向你扑来。防守根本是不可能的。导弹像雨点一样落在你头上。那些绝对是令人毛骨悚然的时刻。我当时就在办公室里建的掩体中。拜登给我打电话说，我们准备好协助你撤离。
Original English
**>>**: And just imagine 200,000 people are coming at you. It's simply impossible to defend. Missiles were raining down on your head. Those were absolutely horrifying moments. And I was in the bunker built right inside my office. Biden called me. We are ready to help you evacuate.
**>>**: 你对拜登说了什么？
Original English
**>>**: What did you say to Biden?
**>>**: 我需要弹药，不是顺风车。他们以为民众会逃跑，我也一样。我不能抛弃人民。然后人们作为志愿者挺身而出，我们的军队从20万人壮大到了80万人。日复一日，我们进行了更有力的反击。
Original English
**>>**: I need ammunition, not a ride. They expected people to run and me. I couldn't abandon the people. And then people showed up as volunteers and our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. Day after day, we pushed back harder.
### 布恰的伤痛与和解的困境
**>>**: 过去四年里，你最艰难的一天是什么时候？
Original English
**>>**: What was your hardest day through the last four years?
**>>**: 我们解放了布恰（BHA）。我去了那里。到处都躺着尸体。孩子、成年人、老人，像碎肉一样被屠杀，双手被绑，受尽酷刑，然后埋在坑里。今天，当你看到一个乱葬坑，如果在美国或英国——上帝保佑别发生——发现一个有500名受尽酷刑之人的乱葬坑，你该如何原谅？这就是为什么当特朗普总统说我们需要找到妥协方案时，嗯，你不能就那样原谅一切。
通往这场战争结束的现实途径是否存在？
泽连斯基总统，有时我正准备问你的这个问题，当人们问起时，我们都会轻描淡写地回答，但我真的很想让你在尽可能最充分、最坦诚的语境下来回答。
你最近怎么样？
嗯，挺难的。呃，难是因为这就像我和我的国家、我的人民一起在求生，这真的很像是一个问题，比如明天到底会不会到来，而对这个问题的答案是：是的，会来的。你不可能给出别的答案，因为我存在，就意味着我的家庭、我的亲人、呃我的国家，我是它不可分割的一部分。所以我感觉如何？艰难，但带着对艰难现实的理解，带着乐观，因为我仍然相信正义必胜。我真诚地相信这一点。
Original English
**>>**: We liberated BHA. I went there. Dead bodies lying everywhere. kids, adults, elderly people, chopped meat, butchered them, hands tied, tortured, and then buried in in in pits. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, how do you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise, well, you can't just forgive everything like that.
Is there a realistic path to the end of this war?
President Zalinski, sometimes the question I'm about to ask you, we answer it flippantly when people ask, but I really want you to answer it in the fullest honest context you possibly can.
How are you doing?
Well, it's hard uh hard because it's like I'm surviving along with my country and with the people and it's like really uh a question like will tomorrow come or not and the answer to that is yes it will. You can't answer it any other way because I am that means my family, my relatives, uh my country, I'm an inseparable part of it. And so how do I feel hard but with understanding the difficult reality with optimism because I still believe good wins. I believe in that truly.
### 战争中的希望与悲剧
**>>**: 对你个人而言，在作为人的层面上，这是否有点像过山车？会不会有某些日子希望多一些，而某些日子希望少一些？
Original English
**>>**: Is it a bit of a roller coaster on a human level for you? Are there there days where there's more hope and days where there's less hope?
**>>**: 没有希望你就活不下去。我理解有时在内心深处，你知道，你整个人在内心深处可能会被击碎，尤其是在战时，尤其是那些在家庭中失去至亲的家庭，比如一个孩子——上帝保佑别发生——或者妻子、丈夫、母亲，那纯粹是一种内心的瓦解。这非常艰难，而对他们来说更是艰难得多。我相信面对所有这些挑战，他们所承受的要比我所承受的艰难得多。
Original English
**>>**: You can't live without hope. I understand sometimes inside, you know, you can be shattered inside, especially during wartime, especially families who, you know, lose some someone close in the in their family, a child, God forbid, or uh a wife, a husband, a mother, that is it's just an internal uh breakdown. It's very hard and it's much harder for them. I believe just so much harder than uh uh than it is for me with all these challenges.
**>>**: 这一切的重担往往落在你的肩上。当有人失去了孩子、爱人、妻子、姐妹或女儿时，我想象，正如我从这里带来的几张你的照片中所看到的那样，我的意思是，特别是这张照片让我印象深刻。
哦，那是一个可怕的故事。那简直是一个可怕的故事。那是呃……那是当时一枚导弹击中了一个游乐场，导弹的速度快到警报根本起不到任何作用。所以仅仅几秒钟的时间，导弹就击中了，孩子们被炸死，死在那里的主要是孩子，还有刚好在那里的成年人。一对夫妇，我记得他们当时只是在外面散步，路过那里，就因为路过而被炸死了。父母们，你知道，就像就在这一侧也有居民楼，那里的父母，他们有些人透过窗户看到了。你能理解透过窗户看到自己的一个孩子被生生撕碎是什么感受吗？还有玩具……在这样的悲剧期间，带来鲜花——为成年人献花，为孩子带来玩具——成了一种传统。我去了那里，那是痛苦。我再重申一遍，我的痛苦甚至还不及那些父母痛苦的10%，太可怕了，简直太可怕了。一枚导弹夺去了一个还没见过世面的孩子的生命。顺便想象一下，在遇难者当中也有很多从来没有在和平年代生活过的孩子。
我的意思是，我们生活在另一个时代。我们明白没有警报、没有炮击等等的生活是什么样的。但是有些孩子，呃，每晚警报响起时他们就下到防空洞去，而警报每晚都会响起，然后他们再上来，其中有些人已经死去了。想象一下，有些孩子根本不知道和平是什么。那太可怕了。
当然。
Original English
**>>**: The weight of all of this sits often on your shoulders. And when someone does lose a child or a loved one or or a wife or a sister or a daughter, I imagine as I've seen from, you know, some of these photos I have here of you, I mean, this photo in particular stands out to me.
Oh, that's a terrible story. It's just a terrible story. That was uh that's when a missile hit a playground and the missile speed was such that the siren didn't help at all. So it was a matter of seconds and the missile struck and children were killed and both children were killed there mostly and adults just adults right there. A couple I remember they were just out walking passing by and because they were walking by and and and were killed. parents, you know, like right on this on this side there are homes too and parents there they some of them saw through the window. Do you understand what it's like to see through a window one of your children just torn apart and toys just such a during such a tragedy it's a tradition to bring flowers uh for adults and toys for children I went there it's pain I'll say it again my pain can't even it's not even 10% of the parents pain it's terrifying just terrifying ing a missile that cut short the life of a child who had seen nothing yet. Imagine by the way and there are children a lot of them among the fallen as well who never lived in peace.
I mean we we lived in in in a different time. We understand what it's like to live when there are no sirens, no shelling and so on. But there are kids uh every night they go down to the bomb shelter when the alarm goes off and the alarm goes off every night then they come back up and some of them have died. And just imagine there are children who never knew what peace was. That's horrifying.
Absolutely.
### 总统个人的重担与失眠
**>>**: 在这次入侵、这场战争开始时你曾说过，你睡不着。在入侵初期你说过，你还没有赢得睡觉的权利。我非常好奇在过去四五年里，所有这些对你个人造成的那种心理与身体上的代价，因为它从未停止。它永无休止。而你也是一个普通人，和我们所有人一样。你有家庭，你有孩子，但你身上担负着国内一直不断发生的这种可怕事件的沉重负担。这是一种怎样的人性负担？而且你现在能睡得着吗？
Original English
**>>**: You said at the start of this invasion, this war, that you weren't sleeping. You said early in this invasion, you said you've not earned the right to sleep. And I'm really curious about the sort of human toll that all of this has taken on you over the last four or five years because it it never stops. It never ends. And you you are a human being just like all the rest of us. You have a family. You have kids, but you have the the burden of this kind of horrific incident taking place in your country at all all the time. What is what is the sort of human burden there? And are you sleeping?
**>>**: 呃，说实话，我呃睡不着。我是一个有责任感的人。我有不同的性格特征，好的，不那么好的。像每个人一样，没有人是完美的。是的。每天晚上我都会与我们的防空操作员交谈，与负责防空的小伙子们沟通。每天晚上我们都会通话。嗯，是的。多亏了现代技术，这非常方便。我们会通过短信来回沟通现在需要什么。“让我们从另一个地区调派一些过来吧。”所以，这是一场积极的讨论，显然这会让你睡不着觉。是的。你知道，像那样睡上8个小时，在这几年、近5年的战争中对我来说完全是全新的事情。我并不是在抱怨。我一点抱怨的意思都没有。我就是这样生活的。
呃，这种重担，最强烈的情感。我曾经如实回答过这个问题。有这样一个时刻，当我颁发奖项时，有这样一个由我亲自颁发“乌克兰英雄”的时刻。这是最高荣誉，当我把这个奖项颁发给失去孩子的父母时。是的。牺牲的男孩或女孩士兵。
那种感觉，呃……你知道，嗯，在那个时刻我就像不再存在了一样，我只是……嗯，这甚至不是痛苦，这是某种可怕的事情。我看着这些人，看着他们的眼睛，听着他们说的话，他们中的许多人会说些什么，还有些人只是要求抱一抱。想象一下，你给一位父亲颁奖，你能感受到他那双非常有力的手，你知道他是一个坚强的人。你感受到他有力的手，他只是轻声对你说：“我们能抱一下吗？”所以他们，嗯，你知道，他们仿佛已经不在了。作为人的状态在那一刻消失了。嗯，有一段时间，坚强的人会努力生存下去。这些时刻，一方面我尊重他们，我去颁奖；但另一方面，这很难承受。我……我理解他们。这是一种巨大的、可怕的痛苦，我不会希望任何人承受这种痛苦。
这些父母在失去身为军人的孩子后所感受到的痛。
这些父母并不是在游乐场里失去了孩子。他们失去的是一名士兵。他们知道那可能会发生。但是提前知道和真正失去是完全不同的两码事。
Original English
**>>**: Uh I'll be honest. I uh don't sleep. I I'm a responsible person. I have different traits, good ones, not so good ones. Like every person, nobody's perfect. Yeah. And every night I speak with our air defense operators, with our guys who run the air defense. Every night we talk. Well, yeah. Thanks to modern technology, it's very easy. And we text back and forth what's needed right now. Let's pull some over from another region. So, it's an active discussion which obviously well doesn't let you sleep. Yeah. You know, getting 8 hours of sleep like that is something something totally new to me during these uh years almost 5 years of war. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining at all. And that's how I live.
Uh the burden, the strongest emotion. I once answered this honestly. There's a moment when I present awards and there's this moment when I award and personally the hero of Ukraine. It's the highest honor when I present this award to parents who uh lost a child. Yeah. A boy or a girl soldiers.
that feeling uh you know well how I cease to exist in that moment I'm just well it's not e it's not pain it's something ter terrible I look at these people at their eyes at what they say many of them say something and and there are people who just ask for a hug imagine you give an award to a father whose very strong hand you can feel he's, you know, a strong man. You feel his strong hand and he just quietly says to you, "Can we hug?" So they, well, you know, they're gone. Gone as people anymore. Well, for a time then strong people try to survive. And these moments on the one on the one hand, I respect them. I do it. But on the other hand, it's hard to bear. I I understand them. And it's a huge terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone.
What these parents feel having lost a child, a soldier.
These parents didn't lose a child on a playground. They lost a soldier. They knew that could happen. But knowing and losing are completely different things.
**>>**: 当你描述这些时，我能看到你眼中的泪水。
我也是一个普通人。我不为自己的真实模样感到羞耻。我不是世界上最坚强的人。我试着树立榜样，但我绝对不是一个完美的人。是的。
Original English
**>>**: I can see the tears in your eyes as you describe this.
I'm a human being. I'm not ashamed to be who I am. I'm not the strongest man in the world. I try to set an example, but I'm definitely not a perfect person. Yeah.
**>>**: 有没有什么事情让你……因为这些，这些需要去应对的事情太多了。你知道，我听你叙述与这些父母打交道的故事。有没有什么是你用来照顾自己的？是什么让你保持坚强？
我的孩子们。我的孩子们。我只是，你知道，我必须成为一个榜样。我告诉自己——也许我没必要这么做，但这就是我对自己说的——我必须为我的孩子们树立榜样。哪样做是对的，哪样是不对的。你必须树立榜样。要坚强。尽可能勇敢。但不要……不要掩盖痛苦。如果你感到痛苦，你不应该说“我什么感觉都没有”。因为人类天生就是鲜活的生命，这是脆弱之处，但也是一个人的力量所在。那确实就是我们的力量所在。所以，
Original English
**>>**: Is there anything that you Because this is this is a lot to deal with. You know, I I hear you recounting the stories of dealing with these parents. Is there anything that you you do to take care of yourself? What is it that keeps you strong?
My kids, my kids. I I just, you know, I have to be an example. I told myself, maybe I don't have to, but that's what I told myself. I have to set an example for my kids. This is the way that is not. And you have to set an example. Be strong. Be as brave as possible. But don't don't hide the pain. If you have it, you shouldn't say, "I don't feel anything." Because human beings by nature, they're alive, and that's their weakness, but it's also where a person's strength lies. That really is where our strength is. And so,
### 成长背景与早年生活
我的孩子们非常能让我脚踏实地。所以，我想树立一个榜样。我希望他们为我感到骄傲。
我们稍后再聊这个。但还有一个悬而未决的大问题，那就是谁是泽连斯基总统（President Zalinski）？我翻看过数百张你童年时期的照片和故事。我这里有一些你最早期的精彩照片……
Original English
my kids keep me grounded very much. So, I want to set an example. I want them to be proud of me.
We'll talk about that later. But there's um there's one big outstanding question, which is who is President Zalinski? And I've been through hundreds and hundreds of photos and stories from your childhood. I've got some some wonderful photos here of your earliest uh
**>>**: 时期。而且……
Original English
**>>**: days. And
**>>**: 是的，
Original English
**>>**: yeah,
**>>**: 这张你极好的母亲的照片也非常漂亮。
Original English
**>>**: and this is a beautiful one of your wonderful mother as well.
**>>**: 那是我妈妈。是的。
Original English
**>>**: That's my mom. Yeah.
**>>**: 妈妈过去非常漂亮。嗯，她现在依然很漂亮，只是年纪变大了。你能带我走进你最早的成长背景吗，这样我就能对你的童年有个大概的了解？你成长的环境是怎样的？我真的很想理解，那个环境和早期经历是如何塑造出今天的你、你的视角以及你所珍视的价值观的。
Original English
**>>**: Mom was very beautiful. Well, she still is, but she's gotten older. Can you take me into your earliest context just so I can get a sort of a a view of what childhood was like for you? What's the context in which you grew up? And really, I'm I want to understand how that context and early experience fed into the man you are today, the perspective you have, the values that you cherish.
我属于跨越了——可以说跨越了两种不同人生的一代人，也就是说我出生在苏联，当时乌克兰还是苏联的一部分，而我在独立的乌克兰长大。
我一直说我的孩子们很幸运，因为他们出生在一个独立的国家，没有所有这些灰暗地带，你知道的。这里是灰色的，那里是别的什么。不，他们面对的是非黑即白，完全清晰。他们是爱国者。他们热爱自己的国家，他们的国家就是乌克兰。而我们出生在苏联，你知道，我们是来自一个相当——怎么说呢，我不想冒犯任何人，以免我父亲不高兴。好吧，来自一个普通的、非常普通的家庭，算不上很富裕。这么说吧。是的，就这么说吧。
嗯，我觉得从照片里看得很清楚。我出生在克里沃罗格（Kiri），苏联时期乌克兰的一个知识分子家庭。并不是——不像在欧洲或美国那样，万事齐备的知识分子家庭。通常我们的学者挣不了很多钱，但我也不是在抱怨。我尊敬我的父亲，一个诚实的人，一名教授，嗯，又是价值观。我受到了教育，得到了正确的抚养，还有我父母的爱。我认为这三点就足以让人对父母心怀感激了。
我不确定大家会不会对这个感兴趣。那我们继续往下聊吧。
Original English
I'm from the generation that um straddled uh two u let's say two different lives meaning I was born in the Soviet Union when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and I grew up in an independent Ukraine
and I've always said that my kids they're lucky because they were born in an independent country without all these, you know, shades of gray. This is gray. That's something else. No, it's black and white. Totally clear. They're patriots. They love their country and their country is Ukraine. While we were born in the Soviet Union and you know, we were kids from a fairly let's say not I don't want to offend anyone so my dad doesn't get upset. Well, from a regular very ordinary family, not not very well off. Let's put it that way. Yeah, let's put it that way.
Well, that's and I think it's totally clear from the photos. Kai was born in Kiri, an academic family in Soviet era Ukraine. Wasn't um not not like you know in Europe or in the United States. An academic family with everything provided. Usually our academics didn't make a lot uh of money but again I'm I'm not complaining. I respect my father an honest man a professor well values again and again I got an education and I got raised right and my parents love I think th those three things are enough to be grateful to your parents.
I'm not sure people find this interesting. So let's move on.
### 从喜剧演员到影视创作
嗯，当你还是那些照片里的小男孩、在10岁以下的时候，如果我问你长大后想做什么，你会怎么回答？
Original English
Um, when you were a young boy in those photos, when you're under the age of 10, had I asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, what what would you have answered?
因为，说实话，我像风一样变来变去。说真的，曾经有一段时间我真的很想成为一名外交官，想成为一名边防卫士。是的。后来我去了法学院，从法律系毕业，在学习期间我意识到自己对媒体更感兴趣。所以我走出了那一步，开始在那个特定的领域工作。
Original English
Because and to be honest, I changed like the wind. Honestly, there was a time when I really wanted to be a diplomat, wanted to be uh a border guard. Yeah. And then uh I went to law school, graduated from law faculty and while studying I realized that I was more interested in media. So I got out and started working that exact field.
**>>**: 我的意思是，你在17岁时对喜剧产生了兴趣。
Original English
**>>**: I mean at 17 years old you became interested in comedy.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 你加入了一个喜剧团体。根据我读到的资料，你一直做到大约26岁。所以在创办媒体公司之前，你一直是个喜剧演员，直到26岁。
Original English
**>>**: And you joined a comedy group. And you from what I read you you did that up until the age of about 26 years old. So you were a comedian up until the age of 26 years old before starting a media company.
我是——是的，但我更喜欢——我当时是一名编剧，所以有时作为编剧我也客串演一点戏。我很享受这个过程。是的。直到我26岁，然后在26岁时我拥有了自己的公司。
Original English
I yeah, but I was more I enjoyed I was a script writer and so sometimes as a writer I also did um a little acting. I I enjoyed it. Yeah. Until I was 26 and then um at 26 I got my own company.
**>>**: 我查到了一些有趣的数据。28岁时你赢得了乌克兰版的《与星共舞》（Dancing with the Stars）。
Original English
**>>**: There's some interesting stats I found. Uh 28 years old you won Ukraine's Dancing with the Stars.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 是的。所以你会跳舞？
Original English
**>>**: Yeah. So you can dance?
**>>**: 我想是的。我不确定现在我还会不会跳。
Original English
**>>**: I think yes. I'm not sure that now I can.
**>>**: 后来你还在乌克兰语版电影中为帕丁顿熊（Paddington Bear）配音。
Original English
**>>**: And later you voiced Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian language film.
**>>**: 是的，我非常非常喜欢，我觉得《帕丁顿熊》是一部非常酷的作品。真的很棒，而且深入人心。说实话，我不觉得它仅仅是给小孩子看的。但不管怎样，那个角色引起了我深深的共鸣。甚至在我当上总统之后，下一部帕丁顿熊电影要上映了。而这一切都发生在战争之前，他们向我发出信号：你会考虑给另一部帕丁顿熊电影配音吗？我说，嗯，我真的很想去，但我没去。是的。没有去。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah, I really really loved I think Paddington is a very cool thing. Really right. and for the people. I'm not sure all of it is just for kids to be honest. But nonetheless, that character resonated deeply with me. And I I even after I became president, the next Paddington installment was coming out. And all this was before the war and they were sending me signals. Would you consider voicing another Paddington movie? I said, well, I'd really love to, but I didn't. Yeah. No.
### 《人民公仆》与踏入政坛
嗯，然后在34岁到37岁之间，你出演了一系列不同的故事片。最有趣的是，你在一部名为《人民公仆》（Servant of the People）的讽刺电视剧中饰演了一个特别的角色，一名意外当上总统的学校老师……
Original English
Um, and then between 34 years old and 37 years old, you appeared in a bunch of different feature films. And most interestingly, you starred as one particular character, a school teacher who accidentally becomes president in the satirical TV series called Servant of
**>>**: 《人民公仆》。
Original English
**>>**: of the People.
**>>**: 《人民公仆》。我想我有张照片。
Original English
**>>**: The People. I think I have a photo.
**>>**: 是的，历史老师。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah. Teacher of history.
**>>**: 你必须解释一下这里的背景，因为人们无法相信这是真的。他们无法相信你实际上作为演员演过一个意外当上总统的角色。你一定也觉得这太不可思议了，因为你后来真的成了总统，而且在作为演员假装扮演总统的时候，你大概根本没料到自己会成为总统。
Original English
**>>**: You've got to explain the context here because people can't believe that this is true. They can't believe that you actually acted as an actor who accidentally becomes president. And you must find this bizarre that you then became president because presumably at that time you weren't expecting to become president when you became an actor pretending to be president.
**>>**: 绝无可能。我绝对没有料到。完全没有。而这个想法，这个构思大概有10到12年了。有一次我冒出了这个想法，我思考了它。我带着这个构思生活了很久。我很喜欢这样做。而在某个时刻，我感觉到世界在变，乌克兰在变，眼下这个构思正切合时宜。它会引起共鸣，人们会喜欢的。
Original English
**>>**: Absolutely. I definitely didn't expect it. Absolutely. And this idea this this idea was about 10 to 12 years old. Once um this idea came to me and I thought about it. I lived with this idea for a long time. I love doing that. And at some point the feeling was that um the world is changing, Ukraine is changing and right now this idea is relevant. It will resonate and people will like it.
**>>**: 那是个什么构思？当你说那个构思时，
Original English
**>>**: What was the idea? When you say the idea,
**>>**: 一个来自民间的普通人，没有任何政治历史背景，成为了总统，说实话，事情最后就是这样发展的。
Original English
**>>**: the person from the people without any uh history, without any political background becomes president and that's how it turned out to be honest.
所以，你在一部名为《人民公仆》的电视剧中饰演了一个角色，那个角色在戏里扮演总统。然后你意识到，根据乌克兰当时的局势，成立一个类似“人民公仆”党或者推举这样一位总统，实际上可能是一个相当不错的主意。并且因为当时政府的不稳定，你真的在乌克兰将“人民公仆”注册成了一个真正的政党。
Original English
So, you were playing a character in a TV series called Servant of the People, and the character was pretending to be the president. And you and you realize that actually the idea of there being a sort of servant of the people party or president was probably quite a good idea based on what was going on in Ukraine at that time. And because of the government instability at the time, you actually registered Servant of the People as a real political party in Ukraine.
**>>**: 嗯，这听起来基本上像是一个很不错的剧本。是的，但这真不是算计出来的。那部电视剧非常受欢迎。与此同时，还有其他几个项目。我们有一个政治讽刺项目，非常受欢迎，甚至在那部电视剧之前就有了。所以我对政治早有了解。无论如何，关键在于我确实决定在这个方向上试试身手。而在克里米亚被占领、顿巴斯被占领之后，我真的想做点什么。整件事改变了我们，你开始觉得这里有些事情不对劲，这是战争，但当时还没有那种感觉，因为那还不是一场全面战争。所以我不想——我们当时和白俄罗斯、哈萨克斯坦以及俄罗斯都有商业往来。我们有办事处，有正在拍摄的项目等等。所以生活改变了。我想放弃这一切，还有那种被俄罗斯背叛的感觉。
嗯，所有这一切都发生了，这就是为什么——这个时期也改变了你。所以这并不是什么精心计算的计划：电视剧开播，然后成立政党。我知道这种说法，我知道。有些人可能会这么想，这没关系，这很正常。人们有他们自己的看法，这很正常。
它是重合了——社会的氛围与我内心的情绪，以及我的决心和愿望重合在了一起。所以这是许多事情的巧合。
Original English
**>>**: Uh well, that sounds basically like a pretty good uh script. Uh yeah, but it wasn't honestly calculated like that. Uh the series was very popular. In parallel, there were a few other projects. We had a political satire uh project. Uh it was very popular. It was even before that series. So I already had my bearings in politics. Anyway, the point was that indeed um I decided to try my hand in this direction. And I really wanted after the occupation of Crimea, after the occupation of Donbas, this whole situation changed us and you and and you started to feel like something something was going wrong here a and it's war, but there still wasn't wasn't that feeling yet because it wasn't a full-scale war. And so I didn't want to we were doing business with Barus and with Kazakhstan and with Russia as well. We had offices and projects that we were filming and so on. So uh life changed. I I want wanted to drop it all and this this sense of betrayal by Russia.
Well, all of that happened and that's why and you change ch this whole period changed you as well. And so it's not like it was some calculated plan. The TV show comes out and then a political party. I know about that. I know about that. Some people might think that and that's fine. That's normal. People have their own opinions. That's normal.
It coincided the mood in society coincided with my inner mood and with my determination and desire. So it's a coincidence of many things.
### 战争的起点
下面应该有一个按钮。如果显示“已订阅”，说明你已经订阅了。如果显示“订阅”，意味着你还没有订阅。如果你还没有订阅，能不能帮我们一个忙，按下那个按钮？这对节目的帮助超乎你的想象。算法显示你经常看我们的节目，但你还没有按下那个按钮。非常感谢。
所以，你谈到了乌克兰气候的转变是如何促使你走向政治的，因为当时发生的种种事情——俄罗斯在2014年入侵了克里米亚。
Original English
There should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribed, you're already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button. Thank you so much.
So you you talked about how it was really sort of a change in the climate in Ukraine that caused you to move closer to politics because everything that was going on at the time, Russia invaded Crimea here in 2014.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 他们吞并了克里米亚，而在这之后的第四年，你宣布将竞选总统。
在你看来，战争真的是从这个时候开始的吗？因为对于战争何时开始，很多人提出了不同的看法。有人说战争始于一千年前，他们谈论古克里米亚以及那里与罗斯（Roose）发生的一切。有人说战争始于2014年，还有人说……
Original English
**>>**: Um they annexed Crimea and this is and and so four years after this point you announced that you're going to run for president.
Is this really when the war began in your view? Because there's been lots of people that have posited when the war began. Some people say the war began a thousand years ago and they talk about old Crimea and the everything that took took place there with the Roose. Um, some people say it began in 2014 and some people say it
### 战争的开端与克里米亚
……始于2022年。在您看来，这场战争是什么时候开始的？我认为对许多人来说，那个时间确实是不同的。但如果我们以在20世纪1991年重新获得独立的新乌克兰来看，我认为在2014年，我们所有人都简直不敢相信会发生这种占领。战争真正的确是始于对克里米亚的占领。那是事实。只是那场占领很缓慢，看起来不太像一场战争。为什么？因为乌克兰当时并没有还击。意思是，当他们占领克里米亚时，那里当然响过枪声。但很长一段时间里，俄罗斯都不承认这些人是他们的人。他们看起来就像普通人。他们甚至称他们为“小……小绿人”。他们之所以这么叫他们，是因为你分不清那是什么制服。这意味着这些人是在半岛上携带某种武器的人。问题在于乌克兰当局没有明确的命令指示你必须保卫你的土地、有人带着武装侵犯了你的边界并正在逐步占领、夺取克里米亚。所以那确实是一种蚕食式的占领。站在今天回顾那个时期，不是回到2014年，不是在2015年，而是今天，你就会意识到战争真正的确是在那时开始的。我们的错误是没有把他们打退。当然，如果当时有过命令，下达过……保卫国家的命令，我敢肯定、我认为今天这种形式的全面战争就不会发生。
Original English
began in 2022. In your mind, when did the war begin? I think for many people that time really is different. But if we take take the new Ukraine that regained its independence in 1991 in the 20th century, then I think that in 2014, all of us just couldn't believe it that this kind of occupation was happening. The war really started with the occupation of Crimea. That's true. It's just that it was slow that occupation. It didn't look much like a war. Why? Well, because Ukraine wasn't fighting back at that point. Meaning, when they occupied Crimea, there were shots fired there, of course. But for a very long time, Russia wouldn't admit these were its people. They looked like regular people. They even called them little uh green men. That's what they called them because you couldn't tell what that uniform was. Meaning these are people carrying some kind of weapons on the peninsula. And the problem was that there were no clear orders from the Ukrainian authorities that you need to defend your land that someone violated your borders with with weapons and is seizing seizing gradually seizing Crimea. So it was really that kind of creeping occupation. Looking at that time today, not back in 2014, not in 2015, but today, you realize that that's when the war really began. Our mistake was not pushing them back. And of course, if there have been an order, an order uh to defend the country, I'm sure that I think a full-scale war in the form it h it has today wouldn't have happened.
**>>**: 嗯，至少在我看来是这样的。
Original English
**>>**: Well, at least that's how it seems to me.
### 二战记忆与对乌克兰的指控
**>>**: 嗯，我读到过您的曾祖父和他祖父的四个兄弟都被纳粹杀害了，而他的祖父是兄弟中唯一在战争中幸存下来的人。我想知道，家族谱系中有这样的经历，是如何改变了您在这个直面与俄罗斯战争的时刻的思考方式。
Original English
**>>**: Um I I read that your your great-grandfather and his grandfather's four brothers were killed by the Nazis, and his grandfather was the only brother to survive the war. And I wondered how that experience of having that in your family tree has changed how you think about this moment in time when you're facing a war with Russia.
我祖父从头到尾经历了第二次世界大战。我的祖父，我父亲的爸爸，是的，他来自一个有几兄弟的家庭，而他们全都被纳粹杀害了。总体来说，我父母双方家族里的亲戚都很少，我父亲和母亲两边……许多亲戚都被……法西斯杀害了，正因如此，当俄罗斯指责我们乌克兰据称有纳粹时，听起来总是那么不可思议。这荒谬至极，完全不可理喻。如果人们哪怕懂一点点历史，就会明白乌克兰根本不存在法西斯分子、根本不存在法西斯主义。为什么？因为乌克兰从根子里深深明白……处于法西斯统治之下意味着什么。因为在第二次世界大战期间，乌克兰被百分之百、彻底、完全沦陷占领，而俄罗斯……乌克兰……白俄罗斯被占领了，乌克兰……纳粹德国损失了大量士兵，他们正是死在白俄罗斯和乌克兰，因为我们所有人都……因为我们的国家或土地挺身抵抗奋战。俄罗斯并没有被完全占领，这一点……也非常关键需要去理解。这就是为什么当普京攻击我们并声称我们存在法西斯主义、他正在从法西斯手中解放乌克兰时，我们乌克兰所有人都觉得——你知道的——这是野蛮行径和奇耻大辱。我的意思是这太荒唐了。我们曾与法西斯作战，我们才是解放他们的人。
Original English
My grandfather went through World War II from start to finish. My grandfather, my father's dad, and he was Yeah. from a family where there were several brothers and all of them were killed by the Nazis. I have very few relatives in general on both sides of my family on my father's and my mother's u many relatives were killed u by the fascists and that's all that's why it always sounded so bizarre when Russia accused us Ukraine of supposedly having Nazis. It's bizarre and completely wild. If people uh all knew even a little bit of history, they would realize that fascists in Ukraine, fascism as such doesn't exist. Why? Because Ukraine understands deep in its roots what it means uh to be under the fascists. Because during World War II, Ukraine was occupied 100% completely completely totally whereas Russia Ukraine uh Bellarus was occupied Ukraine and Nazi Germany it lost a huge number of its soldiers who died specifically in Bellarus, Ukraine because we all well because our countries or our lands they stood and fought. Russia was not occupied and that is also uh very important to understand. That's why all of our people in Ukraine saw it well you know as barbaric and an outrage when Putin attacked us and said we have fascism and he's liberating Ukraine from fascists. I mean it's absurd. We fought against the fascists. We were the ones liberating them.
### 苏联帝国的解体与普京的野心
**>>**: 很多人并不了解这一切是如何开始的历史背景。如果……如果我是一个16岁的少年，对地缘政治一无所知，我问您，总统先生，我说：“您能否向我解释一下我需要了解的背景脉络，以便明白眼下到底发生了什么？为什么……为什么俄罗斯会进入克里米亚？弗拉基米尔·普京的视角是什么？为什么他认为那是可以接受的？为什么他认为自己可以入侵乌克兰？用对一个16岁少年而言最简单的语言来解释，这里到底发生着什么的历史背景是什么？我会给您充裕的时间来向我说明。”
Original English
**>>**: A lot of people don't have the historical context on how this all began. If if I was a 16-year-old and I had no understanding of geopolitics and I asked you president, I said, "Could you explain to me the background context that I need to understand to understand what the hell is going on at the moment? Why why are Russia going into Crimea? What is Vladimir Putin's perspective? Why does he think that that's okay? Why does he think that he can invade Ukraine? What is the historical context explained in the simplest terms to a 16-year-old about what the hell is going on here? And I'm going to give you all the time in the world to inform me.
**>>**: 曾经有一个叫做苏联的帝国。那个帝国包含了大量现在独立的国家。帝国向来都是如此。即便不深入历史背景，大家也都会明白这一点。帝国向来都是如此。帝国存在一段时间，然后就会解体，因为你只能通过专制把一切维系在一起。那么大的领土、那么多的人口，只能靠暴政、靠封建、靠奴役，绝对不可能靠自由来维系。帝国无法依靠自由生存。这一点非常重要。为什么帝国会分崩离析？因为人们渴望自由。因为人们会拿自己在帝国里的生活去与其他国家的生活作比较，哪怕是小国。他们看到那里的事物是如何发展的。他们看到那里的事物是如何发展的。他们如何生活、自由行走、选择任何他们想要的伴侣、无论你喜欢什么发色、音乐、服饰等等。而在苏联，在这些帝国里，就像大家常说的那样，存在着铁幕。为什么会有铁幕？为了让你看不到外面的西方、欧洲、美利坚合众国、英国或亚洲任何地方的情况。所以人们看不到，在信息层面，帝国掌控支配着一切，对吧，所以那里完全是一个信息真空，你不存在，什么都不存在，没有互联网，什么都没有，只有你运营和控制的电视，人们从中获取信息，人们像鱼缸里的鱼一样活着，仅此而已。鱼缸可以非常庞大，比如苏联，但它依然是个鱼缸。朝鲜是个小一点的鱼缸，但它依然是个鱼缸。这就是苏联身上发生的事情。苏联解体了。各国都很高兴。各国独立了，体量更小。乌克兰就是这些国家之一。当身份认同建立起来，你就有了自己的语言、自己的音乐、自己的服饰等等。这在全世界都存在，这就是美妙的旅游。你去亚洲旅行，去泰国旅行，去日本旅行，去美国旅行，不同的文化、不同的音乐、美食、人群，每个人都自由地生活。沉浸在另一种文化中真的很棒。这就是多样性。为什么帝国会分崩离析？因为它是由这样的人群、想要拥有自己特色的民族所构成的。苏联解体了，但对苏联的怀念却留在了人们心中。普京曾是俄罗斯总统，他为自己设定了一个目标。他是一个纯粹的苏联人，一个非常苏联式的人。他曾是一名情报……情报官员。他……曾在克格勃工作，在德国的克格勃工作等等。他说过，而且这是他非常……非常著名的一句话：20世纪世界上最严重的解体就是苏联的垮台。所有这些都表明，对他来说仅仅拥有俄罗斯是不够的。他怀有重返过去的野心，想要带回帝国，带回苏联，因为他认为苏联解体要归咎于另一个大国。哪一个？美利坚合众国，因为这始终是一场地缘政治战争。他们是敌人，苏联和……和美利坚合众国，他们在第二次世界大战期间曾是盟友，而在那之后，你知道的，他们是敌人，冷战等等。所以，这很简单。普京想要带回苏联。而苏联是什么？最首要的就是乌克兰。乌克兰。就是乌克兰。乌克兰是二号国家。
Original English
**>>**: There was an empire called the Soviet Union. And that empire, it included a large number of what are now independent states. It's always like that with empires. Without getting into the historical context, everyone will understand this. It's always like that with empires. Empires exist for a while and then they collapse because you can only hold everything together through autocracy. A territory like that so many people through tyranny through feudalism through slavery through certainly not through freedom. Empires don't survive on freedom. And this is very important. Why do empires fall apart? Because people want to be free. Because people compare their lives in an empire with life in other countries, even small ones. They see how things develop there. They see how things develop there. How they live, walk freely, choose any partner they want, whatever hair color you like, music, clothes, and so on. While the Soviet Union, these empires, like everyone always said, the iron curtain. Why an iron curtain? So you wouldn't see what's out there in the west in Europe in the United States of America in Britain or anywhere in Asia. So people couldn't see in terms of information an empire is hold control everything right so a complete information vacuum there you don't exist nothing exists no internet nothing television that you run and control and people get the information people live like fish in a fish tank that's all it is the fish tank can be massive like the Soviet Union but it's still a fish tank North Korea is a smaller fish tank, but it's still a fish tank. And that's what happened with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union fell apart. Countries were happy. Countries became independent, smaller. Ukraine is one of those countries. And when identity emerges, you have your own language, your own music, your own clothes, and so on. What exists all around the world, it's great tourism. You travel to Asia, you travel to Thailand, you travel to Japan, you travel to the United States, different culture, different music, food, people, and everyone lives freely. And it's really cool to soak in another culture. That's the diversity. Why does an empire fall apart? Because it's made up of these kinds of people, nations that want to have their own thing. The Soviet Union fell apart, but nostalgia for the Soviet Union stayed with people. Putin was the president of Russia and he set a goal for himself. And he's a purely Soviet man, a very Soviet man. He was an intellig intelligence officer. He uh he worked in the KGB in the KGB in Germany and so on. He said, and this is his fa very famous phrase, that the greatest collapse of the 20th century in the world was the fall of the Soviet Union. And all of that shows that Russia just wasn't enough for him. And he had the ambition to go back to that to bring back the empire, to bring back the Soviet Union, because he believes that another major country is to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which one? the United States of America because this has always been a geopolitical war. They're enemies, the Soviet Union and the and the United States of America, they were allies during World War II and after that, you know, they're enemies, the Cold War and so on. So, it's very simple. Putin wanted to bring back the Soviet Union. And what is the Soviet Union? It is above all Ukraine. Ukraine. It's Ukraine. Ukraine is country number two.
**>>**: 为什么？
Original English
**>>**: Why?
**>>**: 他们把苏联称为人才的熔炉。在乌克兰，有很多人后来担任领导、接受过那样的教育，因为这里有许多科学家、许多工程师、许多大学、庞大的知识分子阶层。他们就是这么说的，对苏联而言，乌克兰是人才的熔炉。换句话说，换句话说，许多来自乌克兰的人后来掌管了苏联的各个机构、部委等等。这意味着它是苏联的知识与智力核心部分。乌克兰一直都是火箭……最大的火箭制造业就在这里，还有乌克兰移交的核武器。许多东西都是在乌克兰……在乌克兰制造的。而对俄罗斯来说问题何在？如果乌克兰成为欧洲的一部分，而且脱离了苏联，乌克兰开始逐步朝另一个方向迈进。这意味着如果乌克兰成为欧洲的一部分，那么俄罗斯就会崩溃。它将会分崩离析。那里有许多不同的民族、不同的宗教，完全且纯粹是不同的民族，会分裂成许多不同的国家。而普京
Original English
**>>**: They called the Soviet Union a forge of talent. In Ukraine there were so many people who later led had that kind of education because there were many scientists, many engineers, many universities, a huge intelligencia. That's what they said that for the Soviet Union, Ukraine was the forge of talent. In other words, in other words, many people who came from Ukraine who then ran various institutions, ministries in the Soviet Union and so on. Meaning it's the intellectual part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine was always rocket the biggest rocket manufacturing was here nuclear weapons which Ukraine handed over. A lot of things were made in UK in Ukraine. And what's the problem for Russia? If Ukraine becomes part of Europe and without the Soviet Union, Ukraine started taking gradual steps in the other direction. Meaning if Ukraine becomes part of Europe, then Russia will collapse. It will fall apart. There are many different peoples, different religions, entirely and simply different nation into many different countries. And Putin
### 帝国野心与语言借口
……决定把这整个帝国重新拼凑起来。这种野心，你要从哪里开始拼凑呢？他在车臣发动了战争。他占领了车臣，这个如今成为俄罗斯一部分的小国。他将它彻底摧毁了。在乌克兰东部发生的一切——正是当年在车臣作战、彻底摧毁了车臣的同一批指挥官、军事指挥官。那里什么都没留下，没有建筑物，什么都没有。人们被杀害了。被杀害。顺便说一句，车臣有大量的人被杀害。然后他占领了那里。接着他决定开始恢复帝国，从乌克兰开始，从一个自由的国家开始，一个想要加入欧盟的国家，一个聪慧、有知识的国家。其他国家也是，但在这里，情况就是这样。嗯，要开始占领，总得有一个借口。什么借口？总是一个借口。借口永远是语言。
Original English
decided to piece this whole empire back together. This ambition, where do you start piecing it together? He started the war in Cheschna. He occupied Chichchna, a small country that is now part of Russia. He destroyed it completely. Everything that's happening in eastern Ukraine. It's the very same commanders, military commanders who fought in Cheschna who destroyed Cheschna completely. There was nothing left, no buildings, nothing. People were killed. Killed. A huge number of people, by the way, were killed in Chichchna. And he occupied it. And then he decided to bring back the empire starting with Ukraine with a free state, one that wants to be in the European Union, one that is uh smart, intellectual. Other countries too, but here here's what it is. Well, and the start there always has to be a pretext to start an occupation. What pretext? It's always a pretext. The pretext is always language.
他从克里米亚开始。他从克里米亚开始了占领。为什么？在克里米亚有许多讲俄语的人，讲俄语的乌克兰人。但要明白这一点，克里米亚曾发生过驱逐。鞑靼人经历过不止一次的驱逐和流放。换句话说，克里米亚有原住民族，它是一个多民族的半岛。但是，发生的事情是他从克里米亚和顿巴斯、从东部开始了占领。为什么？因为他分裂了社会，以语言为由挑起了这场战争。因为语言总是一个这样的问题，一个痛苦的问题。当你想要分裂社会时，这完全是不公的。这对人民来说完全是卑鄙的。你开始搬出语言问题。于是他搬出了这个问题，声称我是在保护讲俄语的人，但这根本不是真的。没有人从任何人那里夺走任何东西。是的。但这只是因为更容易。该国东部与俄罗斯联邦接壤。
Original English
And he starts with Crimea. He starts the occupation with Crimea. Why? In Crimea there were a lot of Russian speaking people, Russian speaking Ukrainians. But to understand this and in Crimea there was deportation. There was more than one deportation expulsion of the Tatars. In other words, Crimea has indigenous peoples and it's a multithnic peninsula. Uh but um what happened is he started the occupation with Crimea and with Domba with the east. Why? Because he divided society, unleashed this war based on language. Because language is always such an issue, uh a painful issue. And when you want to divide society, it's totally unfair. It's totally despicable toward the people. You start bringing up the language issue. So he brought it up, said that I'm protecting Russian speaking people, which wasn't true. Nobody took anything from anyone. Yeah. But it was just easier. The east of the country uh borders with the Russian Federation.
### 历史叙事与2022年2月的全面入侵
在……几天前，我想就是在弗拉基米尔·普京下令军队入侵乌克兰的前一天，他发表了一份声明，他在声明中说：“现代乌克兰完全是由俄罗斯创造的，更准确地说，是由布尔什维克、共产主义俄罗斯创造的。”这一进程几乎是在1917年革命后立即开始的。苏维埃乌克兰是布尔什维克政策的结果，完全可以称之为“弗拉基米尔·列宁的乌克兰”。乌克兰从来没有真正建国的传统。所以他极力否认乌克兰是一个独立的民族国家。他为什么选择在2月24日入侵？他为什么选择在那个时候入侵？如果他在2014年就已经入侵了克里米亚，在你看来看，为什么那个时刻是他决定越过边境，并从形势上看试图控制整个乌克兰的时刻？
Original English
days before I I think it was the day before Vladimir Putin ordered troops to invade Ukraine, he did a statement where he said, "Modern Ukraine was entirely and completely created by Russia, more precisely, Bolevik, communist Russia." This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Soviet Ukraine is the result of Bolevik policy and can rightly be called Vladimir Leans Ukraine. Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood. So he's very much denying that Ukraine is a nation of its own. Why did he choose to invade February 24th? Why did he choose then to invade? If he had invaded Crimea in 2014, why was in your view that the moment where he decided to cross the border and try and by the looks of it take control of the whole of Ukraine?
**>>**: 嗯，首先，注意他谈到了1917年的苏维埃革命。对任何人来说这都是荒谬的。你国家的历史不可能始于1917年。在乌克兰，有教堂。大家都知道我们有非常美丽的、拥有一千年历史的教堂。由乌克兰人绘制壁画的乌克兰教堂。完全是大师级专业水平。有一千年的历史。乌克兰是——它是基辅罗斯的继承者，那是一个至少在欧洲大陆上享有盛誉、拥有先进文明的伟大国家。它确实拥有自己的艺术、自己的传统等等。俄罗斯那时甚至都远远没有出现。俄罗斯是在乌克兰已经存在之后才出现的。但他把这一切都抹去了。从革命开始。为什么？从1917年的十月革命开始，因为他在谈论苏联的历史，而不是俄罗斯的历史，也不是乌克兰的历史。是苏联。为什么？因为他在向俄罗斯境内的人们传递信号，说实话，那些孩子们，他们在学校接受信息并全盘接纳。他们不会去深入探究。他在向他们传递信号：他们的生活就是苏联，而那正是我们要重返的方向。这就是他正在做的事情。他发动了全面战争。战争爆发于22年的24日，24日，2月24日。导弹袭击立即从境外发射。导弹从各个方向飞来。部队也从白俄罗斯境内直接从这里攻入，因为那是到达首都最近的路线。他们向基辅推进，并且也从各个方向涌来。他们的主要目标是夺取乌克兰首都。那是他们的主要目标。自然，他们指望那些既是俄罗斯人、又是已经在顿巴斯被占领土上的强硬分子。
Original English
**>>**: Um, first of all, notice he talks about the Soviet revolution of 1917. That's ridiculous to anyone. Your country's history can't start in 1917. In Ukraine, there are churches. Everyone knows we have very beautiful churches that are a thousand years old. Ukrainian churches painted by Ukrainians. Total master professionals. A thousand years old. Ukraine is it's the heir to Kievan Rous, a great state that was very well known in Europe on the European continent at least with an advanced civilization. Uh it really with with its own art, with its own traditions and so on. Russia wasn't even close to existing. Russia came after Ukraine already existed. But he cuts all that out. Starts with the revolution. Why? from the October Revolution of 1917 because he's talking about the history of the Soviet Union, not about the history of Russia and not about the history of Ukraine. The Soviet Union. Why? Because he's signaling to people who are in Russia who honestly the kids, they get information in schools and they take it. They don't go any deeper. He's signaling to them that their life is the Soviet Union and that's where we're heading back to. That's what he's doing. He started a fullscale war. The war started 24th 24th uh of 22 February 24th. Missile strikes were launched immediately from the territory. It was flying from every every side. Troops were also entering from the territory of Bellarus right from here because it's the closest route to the capital. they were advancing on Kev and also um came from all directions. Uh they the main goal was to seize the capital of Ukraine. That was their main goal. Naturally, they were counting on the tough guys who were both Russian and the separatists already in the occupied uh in the occupied territory of Donbas.
**>>**: 为什么？为什么是在2022年2月？为什么不是更晚？为什么不是更早？为什么偏偏是那个时刻？发生了什么，要知道，因为我问这个问题的部分原因，是唐纳德·特朗普总统经常指责乔·拜登软弱，而这给了弗拉基米尔·普京入侵的机会，因为他不尊重拜登总统。这是外界所声称的。这其中有事实成分吗？
Original English
**>>**: Why? Why in February 2022? Why not later? Why not sooner? Why was that the moment? What had happened that you know because I I part of the reason I asked this question is because President Donald Trump often blames Joe Biden for being weak and that giving Vladimir Putin an opportunity to invade because he didn't respect President Biden. That's what's claimed. Is there truth in that?
### 外交预警与战前交涉
**>>**: 我来解释一下。我认为时间还要稍微早一点。在21年曾举行过一次峰会。我已经不记得具体时间了。我想我不记得了。曾举行过一次拜登与普京的峰会。还记得那场著名的峰会吗？我们没有掌握全部细节。他们会后走出来，开始公开谈论一些事情等等。随后有传言称他们讨论了可能针对乌克兰升级事态的问题，在接下来的几个月里，我们不断提出这个问题。我们不断向美国人提出这个问题，说这真的可能发生，而他们当时说，嗯，确实可能发生。我们随后请求他们，如果存在某种占领可能开始的风险，请给我们自卫所需的物资。不过，我们当时无法想象全面入侵会展开，因为我们看到过俄罗斯对克里米亚以及顿涅茨克和卢甘斯克州的占领是什么样子。所以当时的想象是不同的。你无法想象一夜之间导弹就这样开始飞来。从来没有人见过那样的事情。为什么孩子们在尖叫？为什么人们在逃难？为什么会出现彻底的混乱？那些绝对是令人毛骨悚然的时刻，因为导弹是真的朝着你飞来。如今，有一千架无人机飞来，我们能击落它们。我们进行战斗。但在那时，就在凌晨4点左右，导弹像雨点一样落在你的头上。所有人都震惊了。所以，他在2月份动手是因为那就是他想做的事。那是他的计划。我认为他对拜登说了非常多的话。我记得，很遗憾，我认为很遗憾拜登总统是在后来才介入的，在战争爆发的最初几分钟或几天里。我当时跟他通了电话，当时他提出帮助我撤离，那时候很多人都向我提供帮助。我说，给我们武器，帮助我们保卫国家。而且我认为他们意识到了要占领我们是不可能的。我认为事情就是这样发生的。我认为当时美国，我不知道，也许他们确实考虑过可能会发生冲突并且我们可能会被占领，但绝对没有人指望我们能够坚守住。我记得在入侵前一天左右。天哪，那已经是那么久以前的事了。我都已经忘记很多了。在入侵的前一天，知道得比美国人少的欧洲人当时正在与普京交谈，普京向他们保证不会发生入侵。噢，他当时对他们所有人都撒了谎。只是他明明知道会发生入侵。他知道一切。
Original English
**>>**: I'll explain. I think that um it was a little bit earlier. Um in 21 uh there was a summit. I don't remember when anymore. I think I don't remember. There was a Biden Putin summit. Remember that famous summit? We didn't have all the details. They came out and started talking about something uh publicly and so on. Then rumors started that they discussed the issue of a possible escalation against Ukraine and we kept bringing up this issue over the next few months. We kept bringing it up with the Americans uh and this could really happen and they were saying well it could happen. We asked them then please give us what we need to defend ourselves if there are such risks that some kind of occupation could start. We couldn't imagine though that fullscale invasion would start because we saw what Russian occupation looked like with Crimea and with um Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. So you imagined it differently. You couldn't imagine that overnight missiles would just start flying. Nobody had ever seen anything like that. Why were kids screaming? Why were people fleeing? Why was there absolute chaos? Those were hor absolutely horrifying moments because missiles are literally flying at you. Nowadays, a thousand drones fly in and we shoot them down. We fight. But back then, right around 4:00 in the morning, missiles were raining down on your head. Everyone was in shock. So, he did it in February because that's what he wanted to do. That was his his plan. I think he told Biden a whole lot of things. I remember unfortunately I think unfortunately President Biden stepped in later um in in the first uh minutes or days of the war. I I had a call with him back then when he offered to evacuate me back then a lot of people offered me help. I said give us weapons, help us defend uh the country. And I think they realized that it's impossible to occupy us. That's what I think think happened. I think that um uh the United States back then um I don't know, maybe they did consider that it could turn out that uh there'd be a conflict and we might be occupied, but nobody counted on us holding out for sure. I remember that uh I think a day before. God, that was so long ago. I've forgotten so much already. A day before the invasion, the Europeans who knew less than the Americans, they were talking with Putin and Putin promised them there wouldn't be an invasion. Oh, he lied to all of them back then. Just he knew there would be an invasion. He knew everything.
你第一次接到电话得知俄罗斯正计划入侵乌克兰是在什么时候？在事情发生前多少天你接到了那个电话？那通电话又是谁打来的？
Original English
When did you first get a phone call telling you that Russia were planning to invade Ukraine? How many days before it happened did you get that call? And who was the the call from?
**>>**: 事情从来不是直接说“俄罗斯计划在某年某月某日入侵，并且将会有这样那样的全面战争”。从来都不是那样的。这些都是非常谨慎的外交信号等等，而这——我该怎么说呢？我们一直在提出这个问题。为什么？因为人们在担心，而人们的担忧影响了经济，影响了货币，本国货币的稳定性开始下跌，进而影响到了国家的经济。我们请求美国人：给出一个明确的信号，如果你们认为这是战争，那么请紧急给我们武器，给你们所能给的一切，因为——嗯，我们的对话就是那个样子，是的，但是没有人愿意给任何东西。而且我请求实施制裁。那是欧洲每个人都知道的事情。他们知道。我请求拜登总统：现在就先发制人地对俄罗斯实施制裁。如果你们知道可能会发生入侵，那就实施制裁。我们其他……
Original English
**>>**: It it was never direct like Russia plans an invasion on such and such day and there will be a full-scale war like this and that. It was never like that. These were very cautious diplomatic signals and so on and this uh how can I put it? We kept bringing up this issue. Why? because people were worried and people were worried that affected the economy and affected the currency and the stability of the national currency started to drop which affected the country's economy and we asked the Americans give us a clear signal if you believe this is war then give us weapons urgently everything you can give because well that's what our um dialogue was like yeah well but nobody would would give anything. And I asked impose sanctions. That's something everybody in Europe knew about. They knew. I asked President Biden, impose sanctions on Russia now preemptively. If you know there could be an invasion, impose sanctions. We other
### 制裁与多线入侵警告
如果他真的下定决心要进去，他就不会不进去。但拜登总统说，如果发生入侵，我们将实施制裁。事后制裁，不是先发制人的制裁，而是事后制裁。我不是上帝，无法去评判一位总统，但在我看来，我认为那是一个错误。
Original English
And then he won't go in if he's really decided to. But President Biden said we'll impose sanctions if there's an invasion. Postfactum, not preemptive sanctions, but postfactum. I'm not God to judge a president, but I believe that was a mistake in my view.
**>>**: 俄罗斯在2022年2月入侵了乌克兰，但在2021年10月，国家情报总监和中情局局长就向美国领导层和北约高层盟友通报，普京正在为多线入侵制定具体计划。欧洲媒体也发布了卫星图像，显示10万俄罗斯军队、坦克和野战医院开始出现。中情局局长于2021年11月飞往莫斯科，当面向普京发出警告，不要发动入侵。随后在2021年12月，美国政府采取了罕见的举措，解密了情报地图和兵力预估，预测将有高达17.5万名士兵的入侵部队，以防止俄罗斯将伪旗行动作为借口。接着在2021年1月下旬、2月初，美国国家安全顾问公开警告入侵随时可能开始，敦促外国公民撤离乌克兰。然后在2022年2月24日，俄罗斯发动了全面入侵。
Original English
**>>**: Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, but in October 2021, the director of national intelligence and CIA director briefed US leadership and top NATO allies that Putin was making concrete plans for a multiffront invasion. And European media published satellite imagery showing a 100,000 Russian troops, tanks, and field hospitals that had started to emerge. And CIA director flew to Moscow to warn Putin directly against invading in November 2021. Then in December 2021, the US government took the rare step of declassifying intelligent maps and troop estimates, predicting an invasion force of up to 175,000 troops to prevent Russia from using a false flag operation as a pretext. And then in late January, early February 2021, the US National Security Adviser publicly warned that an invasion could begin at any time, urging foreign citizens to evacuate Ukraine. And then on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched a fullscale invasion.
**>>**: 而且他们从多个方向发起了入侵。
Original English
**>>**: And they launched the invasion from multiple sides.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yes.
**>>**: 重点实际上是在基辅。
Original English
**>>**: Really with the focus on Kiev.
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yes.
**>>**: 你还记得当你意识到他们已经跨越……
Original English
**>>**: Can you remember where you were when you realized that they had crossed
**>>**: 乌克兰的多处边境时，你在哪里吗？我想……如果我是你当时所在的无论哪个房间里的那只苍蝇，无论你在哪里，我本会看到什么？你在哪里？你是怎么知道的？
Original English
**>>**: multiple borders of Ukraine at the same time? I'm I want to if I was a fly on the wall in whatever room you were in, wherever you were, what would I have seen? Where were you? How did you find out?
### 2月24日全面入侵
首先，我想让你知道，俄罗斯人在白俄罗斯进行演习、训练。这些是年度演习。这非常重要，因为当我们与合作伙伴交谈时，他们——就像你说的，向北约的相关人员等等作简报时——没有人完全相信。为什么？因为大家都说他们只是在虚张声势。普京是故意试图吓唬所有人。他不会发起入侵。就像我刚才告诉你的，欧洲领导人给他打电话。他说：“我不会入侵。”他在白俄罗斯有演习，军事演习。除此之外，我们的国防部长还被邀请去参加这些演习，而且他去了。只是为了让你明白。想象一下。他去了那里，又回来了，等等。然后，全面入侵从多个方向开始了。欧洲人当时附和我的信息所说的是，实施制裁并向乌克兰人提供武器。如果你知道入侵即将到来——美国人并没有那么做。他们没有给武器，也没有实施制裁。正因如此，所有人都有疑虑。所有人都认为俄罗斯人只是在虚张声势。为什么？因为他想逼迫我们接受《明斯克协议》等等，好让我们把顿巴斯给他们，并承认顿巴斯不是乌克兰，还承认克里米亚不是乌克兰。换句话说，那就是施压的形式，但发生的事还是发生了。
Original English
First of all, I'd like you to know that in Bellarus, the Russians were conducting drills, training. These were annual drills. That's very important because when we talked to our partners and they briefed, like you're saying, folks from NATO and so on, nobody fully believed it. Why? Because everybody said they were just saber rattler. Putin was intentionally trying to scare everyone. He wouldn't launch an invasion. What I just told you, European leaders called him. He said, "I won't invade." He had exercises in Barus, military exercises. On top of that, our defense minister was invited there to these exercises and he was there. Just so you understand. Imagine that. He went there, came back and so on. And then the full-scale invasion started from multiple directions. And what the Europeans said, echoing my messages, was impose sanctions and give weapons to the Ukrainians. If you know an invasion is coming, the Americans didn't do that. They didn't give them and didn't impose sanctions. And that's why everyone had doubts. Everyone thought the Russians were just bluffing. Why? Because he wanted to push us into the Minsk agreements and so on so that we'd give them Donbas and recognize Donbas as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. That's what in other words that was the format of pressure but what happened happened.
**>>**: 你当时相信什么？
Original English
**>>**: What did you believe?
**>>**: 我当时不认为会发生全面入侵等等。让我们把顿巴斯给他们，承认其不是乌克兰，并且还承认克里米亚不是乌克兰。换句话说，那就是施压的形式，但发生的事还是发生了。我不认为会发生全面入侵。我不这么认为，是因为我相信如果人们——合作伙伴等等——知道会发生全面入侵，他们却不采取先发制人的措施。不让他坐到谈判桌前。不质问他：你疯了吗？你是失去理智了吗，居然在20世纪发动战争去杀人？你彻底丧心病狂了。但即便如此，全面入侵还是发生了，而且他们逼近基辅，速度真的非常快。我是说，这简直……就像一场雪崩。我和我的家人在一起，我和我的家人在一起。我接到了办公室打来的电话，说在那之前夜间……导弹在飞，导弹。我准备好，告诉了妻子，告诉了孩子们，告诉他们战争开始了，然后我去了办公室。我到了办公室。我是办公室里的第一个或第二个，我想是第二个人，我把大家都叫了过来，我们开始了……开始了工作日。如此可怕的一个工作日。全面战争期间的第一个工作日。
Original English
**>>**: I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion and so on. That we give them Donbas and recognize as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. That's what in other words that was the form of pressure but what happened happened. I didn't think there would be a full scale invasion. I didn't think so because I believe that if people know there's going to be a full-scale invasion partners and so on and they don't take preemptive steps. Don't sit him down at the table. Don't tell him are you out of your mind? Have you lost your mind to wage war in the 20th century to kill people? You were completely unhinged. But even so, a full-scale invasion happened and just and they approached Kevly, like really quickly. I mean, it was just it was well an avalanche. And I was I was with my family and I was with my family. I got a call from the office saying that before that during the night missiles were flying missiles. I got ready told my wife told the kids told them the war has started and I went to the office. I arrived at the office. I was the first or second the second person I think in the office and I called everyone in and we started started the work day. Such a terrible work day. The first one during the full-scale war.
**>>**: 你妻子说了什么？
Original English
**>>**: What did your wife say?
**>>**: 我不记得了。这非常快。一切都发生得太快了。我对我妻子说：“快醒醒。战争开始了。我……我爱你。我会给你打电话的。”然后跑开了。
Original English
**>>**: I don't remember. It was very fast. Everything happened so fast. I told my wife, "Wake up quickly. The war has started. I I love you. I'll call you." And ran up.
**>>**: 从那以后生活就再也不一样了。
Original English
**>>**: And life has not been the same since.
### 特朗普与普京的长期目标
**>>**: 当然。这完全是另一种生活。一切都不同了。一切都不同了。100%。
Original English
**>>**: Absolutely. It's just a different life. Everything is different. Everything's different. 100%.
当我研究俄罗斯入侵的那一天时，我无法相信的是跨越边境的部队数量之庞大。我读到过这样一处说法，说在一条特定的道路上有长达65公里的装甲车和军队，企图夺取基辅。我想谈谈这个，但我真的也很想对我脑海中这个悬而未决的问题得到一个答案，那就是特朗普已经反复说了大概上百次，说如果他是总统，这绝对不会开始，绝对不会发生。你相信吗？
Original English
When I was doing my research on that day when Russia invaded, what I couldn't believe is just the the volume of troops that rolled across the border. I read one thing that said there was 65 kilometers of armored vehicles and troops on one particular road as they tried to take Kiev. Um, I want to talk about that, but I I just I really want to also get an answer to this sort of outstanding question in my head, which is Trump has repeatedly said probably a hundred times now that this never would have begun. It never would have happened if he was president. Do you believe that?
我想，老实说，没人知道答案。事实仍然是，这发生在拜登总统任期内。这是事实。这在特朗普任下没有发生，这也是事实。事实。但普京选择了进行全面占领的时机，这也是事实。也是事实。我认为特朗普过去与普京有着特殊的关系，现在依然如此。也许特朗普与普京保持友好关系确实有可能阻止全面入侵。但有一点你必须确切知道，无论是我还是特朗普，我们都不是永远坐在总统位置上的。因此无论怎样，特朗普的总统任期都会结束，而普京仍然无法改变他的主要目标——占领乌克兰。所以老实说，我认为只要普京还在那里，谁当总统并不重要。
Original English
Uh, I think that no, nobody knows the answer, honestly. Um, the fact remains that this happened during Biden's presidency. That's a fact. It's a fact that this didn't happen under Trump. A fact. But it's also a fact that Putin chose the moment for a full occupation. That's also a fact. I think Trump had a special relationship with Putin and still does. And maybe uh it really is possible that um Trump being on friendly terms with Putin could have prevented a fullscale invasion. But one thing you have to know for sure, neither I nor Trump, we we're not eternal in these presidential seats. And so either way, Trump's presidency would have ended and Putin still uh wouldn't have been able to change his main goal, the occupation of Ukraine. So I think that honestly it doesn't matter who um the president is as long as Putin is there.
### 兵力部署与白俄罗斯方向的推进
2月24日俄罗斯入侵乌克兰时，据报道他们派出了……有不同的数字，但有些数字显示在乌克兰边境集结了多达20万军队。这个数字在15万到19万之间变动。而当我查看当时乌克兰现役部队的总人数时，几乎是同样的数字。所以，这就好比俄罗斯把相当于你们全部现役军人数量的兵力投入到乌克兰来进攻乌克兰，特别是为了夺取基辅。你能用通俗的话向我解释一下他们是如何组织那场进攻的吗？你提到过一些部队是从白俄罗斯进来的。还有赶来试图夺取基辅的支援部队。我想……
Original English
On February the 24th, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it is reported that they sent there's different numbers, but some of the numbers go up to 200,000 troops that were assembled across the Ukrainian border. It varies between 150,000 190,000. And when I look at the total active number of troops in Ukraine at the time, it's almost the same number. So, it's almost as if Russia deployed the full size of the the number of active duty personnel you had into Ukraine to attack Ukraine and specifically to take Kiev. Can you can you just explain to me in simple terms how they staged that attack? You said that some troops came in from Barus. There was uh support that came in trying to take Kiev as well. I think
**>>**: 他们知道我们的主力部队……我们的主力部队在我们国家的东部。顿涅茨克和卢甘斯克地区。是的。顿涅茨克、卢甘斯克地区。为什么我们主要的部队单位会在顿涅茨克和卢甘斯克地区？看，有哈尔科夫，这也是他们的目标。看这整个……所有这些……所有这整个部分，马里乌波尔，这对他们非常重要，顿涅茨克，当时已经被占领了，等等。那么归根结底是什么原因？因为当它的一部分被占领时，当顿涅茨克被占领时——看，马克耶夫卡，所有那些在占领克里米亚之后都被占领了，这整个部分——非常强大的部队驻扎在这里，无论在人数还是实力上都很强大，还有分离主义分子，他们一直在与我们作战。这意味着你必须明白，这些人把这里视为家园。他们不仅是俄罗斯人，他们是分离主义分子。所以这里既有分离主义分子，也有俄罗斯人。因此这是他们最强的一支集团军。而我们最强的一支部队就驻扎在这里。一直都是这样。他们一直在这里，就驻扎在这里。为什么他们……为什么他们驻扎在这里？因为他们在牵制俄罗斯最强的一支集团军，使其无法突破。没有人预料到他们会借道白俄罗斯并向首都推进。这就是为什么我们在这里没有任何强力部队。这是绝对的事实。我们根本就没有那样的军队。整支乌克兰军队当时——抱歉——后来我修改了法律，使其达到20万以上，最高达到25万。但在此之前，那是一支更小规模的部队。试想一下，20万人正扑向……
Original English
**>>**: uh they knew that our main forces uh our main forces were in the east of our country. Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Yes. Donetsk Luhansk region. Why were uh Donetsk Luhansk regions where our main units were? Look there is Khib which was also their target. Look this whole all this all this whole part marupo which was very important to them donk which was already occupied and so on. So uh what was the bottom line? Because when part of it was occupied when Doness was occupied look Makayak all of that was uh after the occupation of Crimea all of this was occupied this entire part the very strong troops were stationed here strong both in terms of numbers and strength and the separatists and they uh were fighting against us. Meaning you have to understand these are people who considered the homeland. These aren't just Russians. These are separatists. So they were both separatists and Russians here. So this was their strongest grouping. And our strongest grouping was stationed right here. And that was and that and that was constantly. They were here. They were stationed right here. Why were they why were they uh stationed here? Because they were holding back the strongest Russian grouping so it wouldn't break through. And nobody expected that they would go through Bellarus and advance on the capital. And that's why we didn't have any strong troops here. That is an absolute fact. We simply didn't have that kind of army. The entire Ukrainian army was well, excuse me, it was later I changed the law to make it 200,000 plus up to 250. But before that, it was an even smaller force. And just imagine 200,000 people are coming at
### 基辅防守与俄军车队
……你。嗯，这根本守不住。你需要一支像我们今天这样的军队，80万人，而这其实是俄军的主要问题，当时他们没能拿下我们的首都。我们坚守住了并消灭了他们。他们没有足够的兵力来守住这里占领的领土，不得不后撤。我们持续打击他们，他们就在后撤。我们就这样完全收复了基辅地区、切尔尼地区（Cherney region）以及整条战线。我们彻底恢复了控制，把他们完全赶了出去。所以显而易见，他们就是没有足够的兵力。
Original English
you. Well, it's simply impossible to defend. You need an army like the one we have today, 800,000, which was actually the main problem for the Russians troops when they couldn't take our capital. We held out and destroyed them. They didn't have enough troops to hold the occupied territories here, and they had to pull back. We were hitting them and they were pulling back. And that's how we fully took back Kiev region, Cherney region and that whole front. We completely restored it and pushed them out entirely. So it's completely obvious they just didn't have enough troops.
就像一开始他们打进来的时候，我们在这里没有强大的军队，兵力不足。后来同样的情况也发生在他们身上。当然，全面入侵开始时，我们进行了动员，人们排起了长队。人们自愿站了出来，我们的军队从20万人扩大到80万人的规模。顺便说一下，当时俄罗斯在乌克兰领土各方向的总兵力大约是70万，可能在那个时刻大概有70万人。这意味着这是一场大规模的猛攻，一场大规模的冲击。
Original English
Just like at first when they pushed in, we didn't have a strong army here. We didn't have enough troops. And later the same happened to them. Naturally, when the full-scale invasion started, there was mobilization and there were lines. People showed up as volunteers and our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. While the Russian presence was around, by the way, the Russian presence was around 700 probably at that moment around 700,000 across all directions on Ukrainian territory. Meaning this was a massive onslaught coming in. A massive onslaught.
**>>**: 在2月下旬，卫星图像拍摄到了长达64公里（也就是40英里长）的庞大俄罗斯军事车队。
Original English
**>>**: In late February satellite imagery captured a massive 64 km which is 40 m long Russian military convoy.
**>>**: 是的，那是令人胆战心惊的画面。是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah. It was terrifying footage. Yeah. Of that
**>>**: ……堵塞在通往基辅的一条公路上。当你看到长达64公里的军车和装甲车辆驶向一座城市，然后你听说他们未能攻下那座城市，问题就在于，这是怎么做到的？
Original English
**>>**: backed up along a single highway leading to Kiev. And when you see 64 kilometers of military vehicles and armored vehicles heading to one city and then you hear that they failed to take that city, the question like how, how
### 拒绝撤离与地下掩体
顺便说一下，他们占领了发生过灾难的切尔诺贝利核电站。那一片全被占领了。整条路线都被占领了。他们占领了那里并封锁了基辅。我们是怎么做到的？人们挺身而出，人们前去应征动员。是的，第一天有大量的人离开了这个国家，前往乌克兰西部，我们国家的西部地区。他们离开了，但也有很多人留了下来，完成了动员，我们调集了军队，开始日复一日地与他们战斗。我们进行了更猛烈的反击。他们切断了我们的食物，切断了水源，彻底切断了一切。那是他们的任务。他们原以为大家会逃跑，我也一样。有些人来找我说，基辅被切断了，基辅被包围了，俄罗斯人提议你移交权力，事情就此结束，意思是基辅必须投降。我自然叫那些人滚开——这么说吧——滚出我的办公室。然后，如你所知，各国领导人纷纷打来电话，提议在所有道路被彻底封堵前撤离，离开基辅。
Original English
They captured, by the way, the Chernobyl nuclear plant where the disaster happened. All of that was occupied. That whole route was occupied. They occupied it and blockaded Kev. How did we People stepped up. People went to mobilize. Yes. A huge number on the first day left the country, headed toward western Ukraine, the western part of our country. They left, but a lot of people stayed, mobilized, and we brought up our troops and started fighting them day after day. We pushed back harder. They cut off our food, cut off our water, cut everything off completely. So that was their mission. They expected people to run and me and certain people came to me and they said Kiev is cut off and Kiev is surrounded and the Russians are suggesting you hand over your powers and that's it, meaning Kiev must surrender. Naturally I told those people where to go, let's put it that way, out of my office. And then, as you know, leaders were calling offering to evacuate before all the roads were blocked to get out of Kiev.
**>>**: 谁给您打了电话问您是否想要撤离，他们有没有提出由他们亲自来协助您撤离？
Original English
**>>**: Who called you and asked you if you wanted to be evacuated and did they make you an offer to evacuate you themselves?
拜登。
Original English
Biden.
**>>**: 乔·拜登问您是否想撤离。
Original English
**>>**: Joe Biden asked you if you wanted to be evacuated.
**>>**: 他是第一个。第一个。
Original English
**>>**: He was the first. The first.
**>>**: 他说了什么？
Original English
**>>**: What did he say?
**>>**: “我们准备好协助你撤离，因为侵略发生了，基辅被包围了，我们准备好帮助你和你的一家。”后来许多欧洲人同样向我提出了这一点。好几位欧洲人，还有我身边的人也是如此。可以说是我们政治圈子里我身边的人，也建议做这些。
Original English
**>>**: We are ready to help you evacuate because naturally well the invasion Kiev is surrounded and we are ready to help you and your family. Likewise many Europeans offered me that later. Several Europeans and people around me as well. Let's say people around me from our political circle also suggested yeah doing all that.
**>>**: 您对拜登说了什么？
Original English
**>>**: What did you say to Biden?
**>>**: “我需要的是弹药，不是搭车。”
Original English
**>>**: I need ammunition, not a ride.
**>>**: 您有没有叫您的妻子和家人离开？
Original English
**>>**: Did you tell your wife and your family to leave?
他们全都没走，没有人去任何地方，因为那是自己的选择。那是家人们自己的决定。当然，他们没有和我一起留在办公室里，安保人员把他们带走并送到了另一个地点。是的。因为很明显，总统办公室周围当时就有交火，大家心知肚明这会是怎样的结局。他们要求我下到底下的地堡里。地堡在极深的地下，就建在我的办公室内部。在那个地堡里，我开始了工作，拜登就是打到那里的电话。我办公室四周都有狙击手和我们特勤部门的各种人员把守，而我在下面的地堡里，有通讯设备，我从那里与所有国家领导人通话。也就是在那儿，我第一次与欧洲人进行了视频通话，恳请他们团结起来援助乌克兰，不要抛弃我们，这起到了作用。是的。我继续待在那里，走上街头，与民众交谈，公开露面，因为在最初的几天里，流传着太多的说法。俄罗斯散布了大量信息，谎称我已经逃跑了。所以基本上他们的全盘算盘就是让民众逃跑，而如果人们看到领导人抛弃了他们，大家就会逃跑。我的意思是，如果领导人都放弃了首都，那每个人就都只能自谋生路了。这就是整件事情的本质。他们想让我逃跑，对他们来说——是的，显然那就是他们的目标。而我绝不能放弃基辅、放弃办公室、放弃人民。这根本是不可能的。那是背叛。是对我为人底线和乌克兰宪法的背叛。所以我做不出那种事。就是这样。就是这样。俄罗斯人不断放出消息说我不在那儿，一会儿说我在边境被发现了，一会儿说在别的地方看到了我，一会儿又说在其他国家。这一切都迫使我频繁走上街头。一天两三次，我决定保持不间断的沟通，不断向大家说些什么，让民众能看到我就在班科夫街的办公室里，没有逃去任何地方，没有逃跑。这对军队来说也很重要。后来随着时间的推移，军方人员告诉我，这对他们意义重大。他们坚守阵地、英勇作战、保卫并解放了基辅，因为他们相信自己保卫的是自己的首都、自己的家园和自己的总统。这意味着他没有抛弃我们，他同我们在一起。他们是这么说的。嗯，这是我的职责。我并不认为这是我自己什么非常特殊的选择。我认为这是我唯一能采取的行动方式。
Original English
Nobody could go anywhere because that was a choice. That was the families' and theirs. Naturally they weren't in the office with me, or the security detail took them and they went to another location. Yeah. Well, because it was clear that there was shooting right around the president's office and it was obvious how this could all end. And they asked me to go down to the bunker down there. It was very deep underground, built right inside my office, and in that bunker I started working. That's where Biden called me. All around my office was secured by snipers, various guys of ours, special services, and I was in the bunker down there. I had communications and I spoke with all the leaders from there. That's where I first did a video call with the Europeans, pleading with them to unite, help Ukraine, not abandon us, and it worked. Yeah. And I continued being there, going out into the street, talking to the people, showing myself, because there were so many in those first few days, there were so many narratives. Russia was putting out a lot of information claiming I had fled. So basically their whole idea was for people to run, and people would run if they saw that their leader abandoned them. Well, I mean, excuse me, if the leader abandoned the capital, well then everyone has to survive on their own. So that was the whole story. They wanted me to run, and for them, that was—yeah, obviously that was their goal. And I couldn't abandon Kev, the office, the people. It's just impossible. That would be betrayal. Betrayal of my human decency and the constitution of Ukraine. So I couldn't do that. Well, and that's it. That's it. And the Russians constantly pushed information that I wasn't there, then that I was spotted at the border, then that I was seen somewhere else, then in other countries. And all of that forced me to go out into the street all the time. Two, three times a day, I made a decision to constantly communicate, constantly say something to people so people could see that I was in the office on Bankova, that I hadn't fled anywhere, hadn't run away. That was important for the military, too. Later on with time, the military told me that it meant a lot to them. They stood strong, fought, defended, and liberated Kev because they believed they were liberating their capital, their home, and their president. Meaning that he didn't abandon us, that he stayed with us. That's what they said. Well, it was my duty. I don't see it as some kind of very special choice of mine. I believe that this was the only way I could act.
### 战时应对与危机管理
**>>**: 您当时害怕吗？因为换作是我……面对的是一个核大国、世界上最庞大的军队之一，有长达64英里的军事装备正向您所在的地方推进，而且他们还从空中入侵，向您和您的家人所在的城市发射导弹。您决定留下来。您害怕吗？
Original English
**>>**: Were you scared? Because if I You have a nuclear power, one of the biggest militaries in the world that have 64 miles of military equipment heading towards where you are and you have them invading also by air, firing missiles into the cities that you're in and your family are in. You've made the decision you're going to stay. Were you scared?
**>>**: 害怕？那是另一种感觉。那无关恐惧，而是高度专注、全神贯注于当下必须完成的事情。我们当时工作的运转速度，我甚至都无法形容。我只是在办公室里跑来跑去。我跑着、做着决断、给各国领导人打电话，一刻都没有停歇。每天都有，我不知道，几十通和各国首脑的通话，每小时、每一秒都在进行。我跑到外面，回来，同军方交谈，再回来。所以我根本没有时间去想那些。直到战争进行到大约第20天，我才真正意识到这一切。我才意识到出事了，发生了可怕的事。而且当节奏稍微、稍微开始有所变化时，你开始意识到：天哪，这就是战争，这毫无疑问是一场可怕的战争。是的。但一开始，我只是在工作。说实话，我有这种特质，我甚至觉得不单是我，很多人都有这种在震惊中迅速振作起来的特质。你身边的人陷入震惊，你能从他们的眼神中看出来。你看得出他们陷入了震惊，你意识到你必须立刻行动。就是行动，分秒不停地行动。作出决断。基辅被封锁了，就把它打通；告诉军队：“把道路打通，我们需要运进食物、水等等。”这就是所谓的危机管理。而在严峻的局面下，基本上在困境中我通常就是这么应对的。这并不是说我是最勇敢的人，只是当这种打击来临时，我看到身边的人在崩溃，在崩溃瓦解。因为这是一场残酷的战争，我让自己彻底振作起来。只有到了后来，一旦你松弛下来，你才会意识到发生了一场可怕的悲剧，一场战争，那完全是一种巨大的悲痛，差不多就是这样。
Original English
**>>**: Scared? It's a different feeling. It's not about fear. It's about being well, being laser focused on what needs to be done right now. We were working at such speed, I can't even tell you. I was just running around the office. I was running, making decisions, calling leaders. I just had no breaks. I had, I don't know, dozens of calls with leaders every single day, every hour, every second. I'd run outside, come back, talk to the military, come back. So, I just didn't have time for that. I only realized it all about 20 days into the war. I just realized that something happened, something terrible. And the speed, you know, when the speed slightly began to shift, you started to realize, my god, well, this is war. This is and it's without a doubt a horrible war. Yeah. But at first, I was just working. Honestly, I have this trait. I don't even think it's just me. People have this trait to pull yourself together when you know shock. People around you are in shock and you see it in their eyes. You see that they, you know, well, they're in shock and you realize that you need to act right now. Just act. Act every second. Draw conclusions. Kev is blockaded. Open it up. Tell the military, "Open the road. We need food to get in, water, and so on." That is that's what crisis management is. And in tough situations, basically that's usually how I act in tough situations. And it's not like I'm again the bravest person. It's just when this kind of thing hits, I see people around me falling apart, you know, falling apart. Well, because it's a terrible war, I pull myself together completely. And only later once you've relaxed you realized that a terrible tragedy occurred a war and it's just immense grief pretty much like that.
**>>**: 事情是什么时候放缓到足以让您意识到所发生的悲剧的严重性及其影响，以及……
Original English
**>>**: When when did things slowed down enough for you to realize the severity and the impact of the tragedy that had taken place and the
### 战争初期的危机应对
……失去的生命？是否存在某个特定的时刻？
头几天我根本没睡。头几天我们只是在工作，我大概就睡，是的，睡15分钟，睡上15分钟，因为我的全部工作就是沟通。我跟每一位领导人轮番通话。把这个运到那边，把那个送到那里。我们为武器建立了完美的后勤。我们……我们当时能够……我夜里跟波兰的安杰伊·杜达（Andre Duda）通话。那里有个仓库。我们把领导人们叫醒，意思是半夜叫醒。所以这……今天这么说是不妥的，你不应该那样对待别人。但当时就是那样。大约开战20天后，所有事情开始凝聚成一些需要采取的步骤，凝聚成某种……怎么说呢，就像是意识到……好吧，一场战争已经开始了。战争、悲剧，而我们必须向前推进。嗯，大体上就是这样。起初是危机管理。解围、调回部队、打破对基辅（Kev）的围困、予以反击。当然，最关键的是通讯、食物、水、居民。那么多的城市被切断了联系。不仅仅是银行系统、银行卡、确保卡能正常使用。我的意思是，我们是一个数字化程度相当高的国家，所以做了很多事情。在最初几周里做了很多事情。我们比俄罗斯人更快。他们迅速朝基辅突破。而一旦我们在基辅阻击了他们，我们在信息空间等方面就变得快得多了。我们击碎了他们的整套……整套虚假信息浪潮，一步一步、一步一步地把他们瓦解，直到他们意识到自己把首都输给了我们，然后局势就变得清晰了，我们必须加大推进力度。我们的伙伴提供了帮助。我们的伙伴意识到我们不会放弃，他们开始提供帮助。确实就是这样。我记得事情是怎么发生的。
Original English
lives that were lost? Was there a particular moment?
The first few days I didn't sleep at all. The first few days we just worked I was sleeping about yeah 15 minutes sleeping 15 minutes because I had my entire job was communication. I was talking in circles with every leader. Deliver this over there. Do that there. We set up flawless logistics uh for weapons. We we were able uh I was talking at night with Poland with Andre Duda. There was a warehouse there. We were waking leaders up meaning in the middle of the night. So it was well it's improper to say this today. You shouldn't treat people like that. But that's how it was. And about 20 days later into the war, everything started coming together into some steps that needed to be taken into some kind of well like the realization that well a war had begun. War, tragedy, and we have to move forward. And well, that's about how it was. At first it was crisis management. Unblock, bring back troops, break the siege of Kev, strike back at them. And definitely the most crucial things were communications, food, water, the population. So many cities were cut off. It wasn't just the banking system, cards, making sure cards worked. I mean, we're a pretty digitalized country, so a lot of things were done. A lot of things were done in those first weeks. We were faster than the Russians. They broke through quickly toward Kev. And once we stopped them at Kev, we became much faster in the information space and so on. We shattered their whole their whole wave of disinformation and just broke them down step by step step by step until they realized that they lost the capital to us and and then it became clear that we had to push harder. Our partners helped. Our partners realized that we wouldn't give up and they started helping. That was definitely it. I remember how it happened.
### 俄罗斯对乌克兰的误判与“三日速胜”幻想
>> 人们常说，弗拉基米尔·普京相信自己能在短短几天内拿下乌克兰的基辅，事实上被俘的俄罗斯突击部队只携带了3到10天的战斗口粮，以及准备用于胜利阅兵的正式礼服。而官方媒体在第三天意外发布了预先排期的胜利宣言。尽管普京本人从未公开说过“三天”这个词，也未曾亲自给出过某种时间表，但俄罗斯国家媒体的高层人物……嗯，曾公开吹嘘征服只需几天。他们对乌克兰究竟误判了什么？
Original English
>> It is often said that Vladimir Putin believed he would be able to take Kiev in Ukraine in just a number of days and actually captured Russian assault units carried only 3 to 10 days of combat rations alongside formal dress uniforms meant for a victory victory parade. While state media accidentally released a presscheduled victory declaration on day three. Although Putin never never publicly uttered the phrase three days or said a sort of time frame himself, there are top Russian state media figures um who openly bragged that the conquest would take only a few days. What is it that they misunderestimated about Ukraine?
没错。正是你今天一开始提到的，乌克兰不是俄罗斯。这就是他的问题所在。拒绝承认一个独立的民族，拒绝承认一个独立的国家。正是这一点毁了他。他至今仍不明白，他把乌克兰看作俄罗斯，看作俄罗斯的一部分，以为自己带着军队开进去，我们会有几十万人，他往桌子上一拍拳头，总统就会逃跑，人民就会躲藏起来，乌克兰国旗就会被换成俄罗斯国旗。仅此而已。三天。我们展现了一场原本被认为只要三天的军事行动。事实就是如此。当我们的人击中他们的坦克等装备时，我们发现了阅兵礼服。这是真的。他们在各种军用车辆里发现了阅兵礼服。他们简直就是在奔赴一场阅兵。他们一心想在3天内攻占基辅，并在象征意义上举行某种……怎么说呢，在独立广场的克列夏蒂克街（Christhatic）搞一场虚假胜利的常规盛大场面。我的意思是，这是最关键的。他至今仍不明白，也不愿承认这是一个不同的民族，一个不同的人民。
Original English
That's right. Exactly what you started with today, that Ukraine is not Russia. That's his problem. Refusing to recognize a separate nation, refusing to recognize a separate country. That's what did him in. He still doesn't understand that he looks at Ukraine as Russia, as part of Russia, that I'll march in with an army. We'll have hundreds of thousands of men. He'll slam his fist on the table. The president will run away. People will hide and the Ukrainian flag will be swapped for the Russian flag. And that's it. Three days. We showed a military operation that was supposed to take three days. That's how it is. When our guys hit their tanks and stuff, we found parade uniforms. It's true. They found parade uniforms in their various military vehicles. They were literally marching to a parade. They specifically wanted to capture Kiev in 3 days and symbolically hold some well some kind of uh regular spectacle uh of pseudo victory on Christhatic on Independent Square. Well, I mean that's the most important thing. He still doesn't understand and doesn't want to admit that this is a different nation, a different people.
### 回应特朗普“转弯失误”言论与克里米亚的教训
>> 就在12小时前，特朗普就基辅发生了什么以及弗拉基米尔·普京为何未能拿下基辅发表了看法。他是这么说的，我放给屏幕前的听众看看。
Original English
>> Just 12 hours ago, Trump weighed in on what he believed happened with Kiev and why Vladimir Putin wasn't able to take Kiev. This is what he said. I'll throw it up on the screen for the listeners.
>> “但那本该是一场非常、你知道的、非常迅速的战争，对吧？如果你还记得那些沿着公路直扑基辅的坦克。要不是那位显然不怎么高明的将军右转开进了农田——他们说那是十年一遇的大雨冲刷得湿透湿透的农田——
Original English
>> But then it was supposed to be a very much, you know, very quick war, right? And if you remember the tanks going up the highway right into Kiev. Had the general who was obviously not a very good general not made a right turn into farmland which was soaked and soaking wet from the heaviest rain in 10 years they say
>> 他直接陷进了泥潭，那些坦克陷进去就像流沙一样。所以他们……我想，我不知道你这算幸运还是不幸，坦白说，因为已经过去5年了，乌克兰损失了巨大的……你知道，乌克兰失去了那么多的人，第一条，如果他们没有右转开进泥地，而是沿着水泥公路前行，战争在一天之内就结束了。”
Original English
>> he went right up into the mud and it was like quicksand and those tanks. So they got I guess I don't know if you're caught lucky or not lucky frankly cuz it's been 5 years and Ukraine has lost a tremendous you know Ukraine has lost so many of its men number one had they not taken the right turn onto dirt instead of going up a concrete highway it would have ended in one day.
>> 这么说，特朗普认为是俄罗斯犯了转错弯的错误，才阻止了这场战争在一日之内结束。
Original English
>> So Trump says that it was a Russian mistake taking a wrong turn that stopped this war being over in a day.
不，他们包围了基辅。他们……他们抵达了基辅。他们占领了通往基辅沿途的城镇。呃，有些他们没占领，城镇进行了反击，他们就绕了过去。不，如果有人转错了弯，我不知道特朗普总统在说些什么。总的来说，这无关紧要。他们在基辅、霍斯托梅尔（hostal）等地损失了那么多装甲车辆。换言之，数十辆、数百辆装甲车被烧毁。他们只是……他们只是把我们围困住，然后我们开始猛烈痛击他们，他们不知道该怎么办，因为他们的一些装甲车辆突破到了基辅，直接冲进了首都。装甲车开过了街道，人们把它们全烧掉了。当他们向首都推进，而人们只是把燃烧的杂物扔过去时，他们尤其感到震惊。我的意思是，人们把他们的装甲车辆点着了。这不是某个将军犯蠢的问题。我认为下达命令的人根本没有充分意识到正在发生什么，没有真正搞懂这需要付出什么代价。而这才是重点。他们需要大约数千、数千……我认为需要30到40万人才能拿下基辅。他们需要两倍的兵力。为什么？因为拿下基辅，拿下基辅意味着什么？当你拿下通往基辅路上的那些城镇时，你必须留驻部队来守住这些城镇。这需要极其庞大的人数。那是相当大的一片区域。只有在没有抵抗的情况下，你才可以不在那里留驻很多部队。但如果里面的人进行抵抗，那你就……你需要一支军队去守住每一个城镇。那是他们的……那是他们的错误。他们没有做好评估，对吧？没有评估……呃，他们甚至没有意识到会有抵抗。仅此而已。
那就是他们的主要错误。
然后……然后就是这样。仅此而已。比如，如果你拿2014年的那次行动来说，当时他们……呃，进入并夺取了克里米亚。当时，抱歉，克里米亚有300万人，基辅也有300万人。几十个人进入了克里米亚，顶多几百人，而在这里是几十万人。这与行动无关。区别在于人们保卫了这里，挺身而出并奋起战斗。而区别在于当时没有人反击。这就是为什么我说，当几十个人出现在这里……特朗普说得对的地方在于，如果当初没有任由克里米亚沦陷，就不会有这场战争。我同意特朗普总统的看法。不是因为我在指责任何人。不，只是因为当时进入克里米亚的只有几十个人。几十人。对于这样一个国家来说，那等于零，那什么都不是。我们应对的是几十万人。
这里，这就是发生的事情。要是当时给他们头上狠狠来一下，呃，那些俄罗斯人，那些穿着军装的人——意思是俄罗斯人甚至会说：“嘿，那……”他们当时就已经在说：“那不是我们的军队。看看那军装。你不能说那是俄罗斯军队。”如果当时对他们予以迎头痛击，嗯，这事就不会发生。嗯，至少不可能发生全面战争。为什么？因为普京就会知道会有一记重击，会有回应。但他在这里犯了什么错？首先，当他看到克里……克里米亚被那么轻易地夺取，那么轻易，所以他以为夺取基辅也会同样轻易。那是他的经验。
Original English
No, they surrounded Kev. They they reached Kev. They occupied towns on the way to Kev. Uh some they didn't occupy. Towns fought back. They bypassed them. No, if someone took a wrong turn, I don't know what President Trump is talking about. It's overall it doesn't matter. With all the armor they lost near Keev, hostal and so on. In other words, dozens hundreds of armored vehicles burned. They just they just trapped us and then we started hammering them and they didn't know what to do about it because some of their armor breached into Kev right into the capital. Armored vehicles drove through the streets and people burned it all down. They were especially shocked when they drove toward the capital and people were just throwing burning debris. I mean pe people were setting their armor on fire. It wasn't a matter of some general being an idiot. I believe the one who gave the order just didn't fully realize what was happening. Didn't really get what it would take. And that's the main point. They needed around thousands thousands I think 3 to 400,000 to take Kev. They needed twice as many men. Why? Because taking Kev, what does taking Kev mean? When you've taken those towns on the on the way to Kev, you have to leave troops behind to hold those towns. And that takes a huge number of people. It's a pretty large territory. And you can avoid leaving many troops there only if there's no resistance. But if the people inside offer resistance, then you you need an army to hold every town. That was their uh that was their mistake. They didn't estimate, right? didn't estimate uh they didn't even realize there would be resistance. That's it. That was their main mistake. And then then that's it. That's all. For example, if you take uh that operation back in 2014 when they uh went in and seized uh Crimea then, pardon me, in Crimea there are 3 million people and Kev had 3 million people. Dozens of people entered Crimea, at most hundreds, and here hundreds of thousands. It's not about the operation. The difference is people defended it, stood up and fought. And the difference is no one fought back. Which is why I said when dozens of people showed up here where Trump is right is that if Crimea hadn't been allowed to fall, there would be no war on this. I agree with President Trump. Not because I'm blaming anyone. No, it's just that dozens of people went into Crimea. Dozens. For a country like this, that's zero. That's nothing. We handled hundreds of thousands. Here, here's what happened. And if they'd been smacked in the head back then, uh, the Russians, those people wearing uniforms, meaning the Russians would have even said, "Hey, that's they were already saying, "That's not our army. Look at the uniforms. You can't tell us the Russian army." And if they'd been hit back then, well, it wouldn't have happened. Well, at least there wouldn't have been a chance of a full-scale war. Why? Because Putin would have known there would be a blow. There would be a response. But what was his mistake here? First of all, when he saw how Crime Crimea was seized so easily, so easily, that's why he thought he could seize Kev just as easily. That was his experience.
### 安东诺夫与霍斯托梅尔机场之战
>> 还有一场相当著名的战斗，是为了夺取安东诺夫（Anatonov）机场……
Original English
>> And there's quite a famous battle that took place um to secure the Anatonov airport,
>> 霍斯托梅尔（Hostol）。
Original English
>> Hostol.
呃，霍斯托梅尔安东诺夫，那就是我刚才跟你说的。那是一场战斗。在霍斯托梅尔有一场惨烈的战斗。一场残酷的战斗。霍斯托梅尔机场之战。
Original English
Uh Hostol Antonov, that's what I just told you. That's a battle. There's a terrible battle in Hostol. A brutal battle. of the airport in host.
>> 你能给我解释一下吗？嗯，因为我几个月前看过一部关于这个的纪录片，感觉那是保卫基辅过程中一个非常关键的时刻。俄罗斯当时试图做什么？这是在哪里……
Original English
>> Can you explain that to me? Um because I I watched a documentary on this a couple of months ago and it feels like it was a really pivotal moment in defending Kiev. What were Russia trying to do? Where is this
>> 当他们降落时，对他们来说攻占是至关重要的……
Original English
>> when they land for them it was crucial to seize
### 霍斯托尔与夺取机场的企图
……各处机场。霍斯托尔（Hosttol）是其中一处……能够让大批空降部队降落的机场等等。夺取行动的套路就是这样：封锁基辅（kev），夺取各处机场，基本上还有电视塔等等，换句话说就是夺取信息和后勤，切断食物、武器等等物资的供应，基本上这就是他们的计划。而且你需要让领导人逃跑，因为没有领导人就意味着混乱，没有指挥链，他们当时干的就是这个。在霍斯托尔（Hostol）发生了一场惨烈的战斗，我们的人在那里把他们打得溃不成军，他们派出了非常强悍的作战部队。他们没能把大部队空降在那里。他们被消灭了。霍斯托尔被夺了回来。我们的部队控制了那里。那是其中一场惊心动魄的战斗。一场惨烈的战斗。最惊心动魄的战斗之一。所以我们竭尽全力，不让他们俘获我们，也不让他们夺取我们的后勤线。
Original English
the airports. Hosttol is one of uh the airports where a massive landing force could could land and so on. So here's how a takeover works. block kev capture the airports basically TV towers and so forth in other words seize information logistics and cut off supplies of uh food food weapons and so on that that's bas basically the plan and you need the leader to to run because no leader means chaos no chain of command that's what they were doing there was a terrible battle in Hostol our people burned them there and they had very tough of combat uh units. They couldn't uh land a large force there. They were destroyed. Uh Hostol was taken back. Uh our troops controlled it. That was one of the striking battles. A terrible battle. One of the most striking battles. So we did everything possible not to let them capture us and seize our logistics.
**>>**: 他们是乘伞兵机飞进来的。他们空降人员到那个机场，试图占领它。他们最初确实占领了该机场。
Original English
**>>**: They they flew in with paratroopers. So they parachuted people into that airport to try and claim it. And they originally did seize the airport.
**>>**: 没错。
Original English
**>>**: That's right.
**>>**: 随后立即发起了反击，乌克兰国民警卫队部队和特种部队——
Original English
**>>**: And then there was an immediate counterattack where Ukrainian National Guard units and special forces
**>>**: 对，我们的国民警卫队。
Original English
**>>**: Yes. Our National Guard.
**>>**: 你们自己炮击并炸毁了跑道。你们炸毁了自己的跑道，与此同时防空部队击落了数架俄罗斯运输直升机。据我所知，你们夺回了机场。他们交战，你们夺回，他们认为……没错，几度易手，来来回回。当时就是那样。
Original English
**>>**: You shelled and destroyed the runway yourself. You destroyed your own runway while air defense units forces shot down several Russian transport helicopters. And from what I understood, you know, you took the air port back. They fought you took it back. They thought that that's right. Changed hands back and forth. That's how it was.
**>>**: 如果他们当时拿下了那个机场，那会对基辅（K）的局势产生怎样的改变？你认为——
Original English
**>>**: And if they had been able to seize that airport, how would that have changed the situation with K? Do you think
**>>**: 他们很可能会拿下首都的大部分地区。他们本可以突破并占领它。确实如此。确实如此。那是一场彻彻底底英雄般的战斗。
Original English
**>>**: they likely they could have uh they could have taken most of the capital. They could have broken through and captured it. That's true. That's true. That was an utterly heroic uh battle.
### 决定未来的战斗与布查的暴行
**>>**: 当听到这些故事时，你会意识到乌克兰的未来既取决于英雄主义，也取决于几场小规模战斗。有些大战役，但也有几个微小的瞬间。当你回想那一个月、那个时刻，你认为在这方面还有没有其他真正定义了乌克兰未来的微小瞬间？
Original English
**>>**: It when you hear these stories, you realize that the future of Ukraine comes down to both heroism, but also several small battles. Some big battles, but also several small moments. when you reflect on that that month, that moment, what are is there any other sort of small moments that you think really define the future of Ukraine in this regard?
**>>**: 嗯，只是让你了解一下，如今像霍斯托尔（Hostol），还有更上面的莫休恩（Mushroom）以及基辅（Kev）周围的几个小城镇，对每一个城镇都发生过殊死搏斗。为什么是国民警卫队？因为当时正规大部队还没能赶到。但国民警卫队属于内卫部队，所以他们当时就在那里，并引进了陆军部队等等。但不管怎样，这就是为什么那是一场彻彻底底英雄般的战斗。还有布查（BHA），大家都知道他们占领了那里。那太可怕了。那是所有人公认的种族灭绝。他们埋葬了数百人。他们折磨人们。我是说残酷折磨他们，数百人被扔进万人坑。他们发现了一处坑穴。我相信里面大概有500人，半千人就在那样一个坑里。想想看，双手被绑，遭受酷刑，然后被埋在坑穴里。当时发生的就是这些。
人们目睹了这一切，这看起来根本不像战争。当他们占领前往基辅途中以及基辅周围的那些城镇时，这绝对就是纯粹的劫掠。他们闯入民宅，杀戮，抢走微波炉、一些冰箱、电视机。他们的行径就像是……我都无法形容了。嗯，他们简直就是食腐动物。所有这些人，他们把他们的手绑起来，折磨他们。存在性暴力，什么都有。他们把人直接埋在院子里，丢弃尸体等等。当我们解放那些城镇时，人们心底涌现出对俄罗斯人的这种仇恨。就在那一刻，甚至都不是在他们发起全面战争的那一刻。当时没有人真正明白这到底是什么。当我们发现那些埋着遭受酷刑的成年人和儿童的万人坑时，人们才明白这场战争是什么，普京个人做了什么。我是说，他们不仅杀害他们，还折磨他们、杀害他们。
Original English
**>>**: Well, uh just so you know, um today, um places like Hostol, then further up Mushroom and several small towns around Kev, there was a desperate battle for every single one of those towns. Why the National Guard? because back then uh the full army couldn't reach it yet. But the national guard are uh internal troops. So they were there and brought in army units and so on. But nonetheless, that's why it was an utterly heroic battle. There was BHA, you know, right, that they occupied it. It was terrible. It was a genocide recognized by everyone. They buried hundreds of people. They tortured people. I mean tortured them and hundreds of people were in a mass grave. They found a grave. There were, I believe, around 500 people, half a thousand people in a grave like that. Just imagine hands tied, tortured, and then buried in in in pits. That's what was happening. People seeing all this, this looked nothing like a war. It looked it was definitely pure looting when they occupied those towns on the way to Kev and around Kev. They collap they just went into homes just killed took microwaves, some refrigerators, TVs. They acted like just an well, I can't even describe it. Well, they're just scavengers. And all these people, they tied their hands, tortured them. There was sexual violence, everything. And they buried people right in the yard, dumped people and so on. When we liberated those towns, there emerged this, you know, this kind of such hatred for the Russians. Right at that moment, not even at the moment when they started the fullscale war. Back then, every nobody understood what it really was yet. People understood what this war was and what Putin did personally when we found those mass graves of tortured adults, children. I mean, they didn't just kill them, they tortured and killed them.
**>>**: 孩子。
Original English
**>>**: Children.
**>>**: 没错。没错。然后你意识到……想象一下他们经历了什么。这些所有人经历的一切，你根本无法相比。这就是为什么布查（BHA）如此令人毛骨悚然，为什么俄罗斯人立刻就开始说是摆拍演戏。我们带了记者过去。全世界的媒体都在那里。他们看到了尸体。在解放布查（Bha）时，我特地去了那里。一旦我亲眼见到，我就说：“把所有记者都带到这里来。什么都不要动。就把记者带过来。全世界必须亲眼看到这一切。”他们把记者带了过去。人们就那样躺在人行道上。到处躺着尸体。孩子、成年人、老人等等。留在布查的目击者——一位老人，一位上了年纪的人。那是那里一个非常出名的故事。这也是你提到的那些时刻之一。这位老人经历过二战期间布查这座城镇被占领的岁月。他说法西斯当年也从来没有这样对待过人。是的，他们曾是敌人，是的，是占领者，但他们没有这样折磨过人。
这是绝对的事实。有证词，有证据，有刑事立案，经历这一切之后……只是因为这已经是很久以前、全面战争第一年的事了。有时人们需要被提醒：如果在今天的美国或英国，上帝保佑不要发生，发现一个埋有500名遭受酷刑之人的坑穴，成年人、小孩、狗、动物全被枪杀。他们开着军用车辆在那里进行猎杀狂欢。人们奔跑，他们开枪，一直在捕猎、玩游戏。在我们解放基辅（Kev）之前，他们一直对那里实施封锁。那些村庄里有人等等。他们对人就像对待奴隶一样随意玩弄。想象一下吧。经历这些之后，你怎么还能听普京的话，经历这些之后你又怎么可能原谅？所以当特朗普总统说我们需要找到妥协方案时——相信我，我们活在这样的现实中——停火并坐到谈判桌前，就是一个巨大的妥协。这是一个巨大的妥协。没有人能切身体会所有这些人和那些孩子受折磨的亲属的感受。没有人能够、没有人愿意在任何事情上原谅他们。没有人愿意原谅任何事情。你不能强迫人们去原谅。当他们的孩子受尽折磨时，你怎能强迫他们？你该如何原谅？这根本不可能。但这就是为什么我们说停火是唯一步骤，因为人们怀有如此强烈的仇恨。这仇恨不会消失。那份仇恨不会散去。这需要时间和正义。正因如此，这是一个巨大的妥协。我一直真心希望，我多次试图告诉美国总统：请理解我们。仅仅坚守在现有防线上，对我们来说……看看吧，那就是这种感受。
Original English
**>>**: That's right. That's right. And then you realize that I mean just imagine what they went through. Well, there's no no you can't even compare what all these people live through. Why BHA is so horrifying and why the Russians immediately started saying it's a staged performance. We brought in journalists. The entire world press was there. They saw the bodies. I deliberately when we liberated Bha I went there. Once I saw it, I said, "Bring every journalist here. Don't touch anything. Just bring the journalists. The whole world simply has to see this." And they brought the journalists. People were literally lying on the pavement. Dead bodies lying everywhere. Kids, adults, elderly people, and so on. Witnesses who had stayed behind in BHA. An old man, an elderly man. This was a very famous story there. It's one of those moments you're talking about. this elderly man, he lit survived uh the occupation of this town, the town of Bha during World War II. And he said the fascists never treated people like that. Yes, they were enemies, yes, occupiers, but they didn't torture people like that. This is absolute reality. And this there are testimonies, there's evidence, there are criminal cases and how after all this we it's just that it was already a long time ago in the first year of the full-scale war. And sometimes people need to be reminded when you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, adults, kids, dogs, animals shot dead. I mean, they held hunting sprees there from military vehicles. People were running, they were shooting, just hunting, playing games the whole time. They were blockading Kev right up until the moment we liberated it. They There were people in those villages and so on. They literally just played with people like slavery. Imagine that. So, how how after this uh can you listen to Putin and how how after this can you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise and believe me this we live with this a ceasefire and sitting down at the negotiating table there's a huge compromise. It is a huge compromise. Nobody can step into the shoes of all these people and the relatives whose children were tortured. Nobody can nobody wants to forgive them for anything. Nobody wants to forgive anything. And you can't force people to forgive. How can you force them when their child was tortured? How do you forgive? Well, it's impossible. But that's why we say a ceasefire is the only step because people have such hatred. It It's not going away. It that hatred isn't going anywhere. It takes time and justice. And that's why it's a huge compromise. I've always really wanted I I've tried many times to tell the president of the United States just understand us. This is a huge compromise just to hold the lines where we are that to well look that's what it feels like.
### 最艰难的一天与复仇的心情
**>>**: 在过去的四年里，你最艰难的一天是哪一天？哪一天你知道会长久地留在你的大脑、你的心灵、你的记忆中？
Original English
**>>**: What was your hardest day through the last four years? What's the day that you know will live long in your your brain, your mind, your memory?
布查（BHA），正如我刚才告诉你的，那是可怕的一天，因为我站在了那里。我一生中从未见过人的尸体就这样散落在街头。我这辈子根本就没见过那样的景象。而在那之后，一切都彻底变了。生命中的一切再次发生了改变。
Original English
BHA, what I just told you, that was a terrible day because I stood there. I had never seen people's bodies just scattered on the on the street in my entire life. I had simply never seen anything like that in my life. And after that, everything changed completely. And once again, everything changed in life.
**>>**: 一切都变了。
Original English
**>>**: Everything has changed.
**>>**: 绝对的。
Original English
**>>**: Absolutely.
**>>**: 以什么样的方式？
Original English
**>>**: In what way?
嗯，你想要……你想要复仇。我以前从来没有体会过无法原谅某人的感觉。大体上，我认为人都会犯错。但这关乎另一种邪恶，那种恶魔。就这样闯进来，对人下这样的毒手，像剁碎的肉一样屠杀他们，明白吗？这就是呈现出来的样子。你根本无法理解这怎么可能发生。你会想要找到这些不是人的人。你想找到他们，你想……你只是想要……你想杀了他们。我是说，我以前从来没有想过要杀死任何一个人类。我以前从未有过这样的感觉。纯粹的复仇。随着时间的推移，你无法忘怀。在这样的时刻，我们的对话又唤回了那些时刻。而你必须当好总统，你必须冷静下来，表现得更……该怎么说呢……更具外交手腕。是的。但你不能就这样原谅一切，不能轻描淡写地说“好吧，很遗憾，那是普京……”
Original English
Well, you want you want revenge. Uh I had never had it where I couldn't forgive someone. And by and large, I think people make mistakes. This this is about something else evil like that, you know, a devil like that. Just came in like that, did that to people like like chopped meat, butchered them, you know? I mean, that's what it looks like. And you just can't fathom how that's possible. And you want to find these people who aren't human. You want to find them and you want to you just want to you want to kill them. I mean, I had never wanted to kill a single human being. I had never felt anything like that. Pure revenge. With time, you can't forget that. And in moments like this, and our conversation brings back moments like that. And you have to be president and you have to come down and be more uh how do it uh diplomatic. Yeah. Well, you can't forgive just forgive everything like that and say well sorry that's Putin a
### 战争的改变与对正义的诉求
……强权国家。就让我们把一切都忘掉。让我们原谅一切，然后设法，好吧，去买卖天然气或柴油之类的东西。这很难。你明白吗？
Original English
powerful country. Let's just forget everything. Let's forgive everything and somehow well we'll buy and sell gas or diesel or whatever. That's difficult. You understand?
**>>**: 你是否曾担心过这段经历改变了你？因为你已经因此发生了不可逆转的改变。从与你见面，看到你三、四、五年前的样子，我都能看出来，你已经发生了不可逆转的改变。你是一位父亲，也是一位丈夫，而且在某个时刻这场战争终将结束，你知道，但愿上帝保佑。但你是否曾想过自己已经发生了不可逆转的改变？
Original English
**>>**: Do you ever worry about how this experience has changed you? Because you have been irreversibly changed by this. I can tell both from meeting you, looking at how you used to be 3, four, 5 years ago, you've been irreversibly changed. and you're a father and you're a husband and at some point this war will be over, you know, God God willing. But do do you ever think about how you're irreversibly changed?
**>>**: 你无法把它恢复如初了。这完全是两个不同的世界。一种对价值观的重新审视。我唯一的梦想就是结束这场战争。我极度渴望正义。我只是真的希望……我知道很多人的心都被撕碎了，而且不会再有一颗新的心。你必须至少给他们一些东西。所以，一场审判，某种正义，你知道，至少某种道德抚慰（moral soloulless）是绝对必需的。你不能就这么搁置它，因为他们内心的那个空洞不会愈合，而且就像我告诉你的那样，会有复仇。那么多失去了一切的人的复仇，自然会带来某种持续的军事或作战行动的风险，诸如此类。所以事情没那么简单。它不会就这样结束。为什么我们总在谈论公正的和平？有人问什么是公正的和平？好吧，必须以某种方式实现正义。有罪者必须受到惩罚。至少，你必须展示一条让它发生的路径。也许不是眼下，但它终将发生。单纯去原谅是完全不可能的，而且……你意识到你想和你的孩子们在一起，和你的妻子在一起。通常来说，你只是想结束战争，过上一段属于自己的生活。
Original English
**>>**: You can't bring it back. It's just it's two different worlds. A re-evaluation of values. My only dream is to end this war. I desperately want justice. I just really want I know so many people had their hearts ripped out and there won't be a new heart. You have to give them at least something. So some trial, some justice, you know, at least some moral soloulless is an absolute must. You can't just leave it because that hole inside them, it won't heal and there will be revenge like I told you. and a and re the revenge of so many people who lost everything that naturally brings uh risks uh of some kind of ongoing military or combat actions you know and so forth. So it's not that simple. It doesn't just end like that. Why do we talk talk about a just peace? Some people ask what is a just peace? Well somehow there has to be justice. The guilty must be punished. At the very least, you have to show a path that it will happen. Maybe not right now, but that it will happen. It's just totally impossible to simply forgive and and that and you realize that you want uh to be with your kids, with your wife. Generally, you just want uh to end the war and get a little bit of a life.
但是，如果我问你的妻子阿丽娜（Alina），由于这一切，你在人性层面上发生了怎样的改变，她可能会对我说什么？
Original English
But if if I asked Alina, your wife, how you have changed on a human level because of all of this, what might she say to me?
**>>**: 我不知道。她肯定会说我变了很多。是的，她有时会跟我这么说。是的。嗯，
Original English
**>>**: I don't know. She'd definitely say I've changed a lot. Yeah, she tells me sometimes. Yeah. Well,
**>>**: 她是怎么说的？
Original English
**>>**: what is she saying?
**>>**: 嗯，你知道是怎么回事。她关注的是不同的事情，你知道，不同的价值观。你只是想以某种方式，想紧紧抓住一些东西，抓住身边亲近的人。你真的很渴望那份温暖。你想打破这种……在战争中你在战斗，而且你是孤独的。你知道，在这场战争之前的生活里，你绝对不孤独，因为你有朋友、公司、生意，然后也许还有政治，但你不孤独。我管理着一个国家，而现在这完全是另一回事了。但是当你拥抱家人时，感觉就是那样。好吧，这意味着……好吧，这意味着有人爱着你。这很重要。
Original English
**>>**: Well, you know how it is. She focuses on different things, you know, different values. You just want somehow you want to hold on to something that the people close to you. You really crave that warmth. You want to break through this uh in a war you fight and you're lonely. You know in life before this war you're definitely not lonely because you have friends, company, business, then maybe politics, but you're not lonely. I I run a country and and this is about something completely different right now. But when you hug your family, it's just like that. Well, it means uh well, it means there are people who love you. That matters.
### 工作、家庭与思念
**>>**: 你想念他们吗？
Original English
**>>**: Do you miss them?
**>>**: 非常想念。非常想念。毫无意义的多愁善感。也许就是这样吧。事情就是这样。几年过去了，你知道，在这之间……好几年了。我真的时刻都在想念他们。甚至当他们就在我身边时，感觉也是如此。这纯粹就是这种习惯，这种工作的习惯，完全专注于工作。甚至当他们在身边时，我有时的确也会想念他们。意思是，好吧，我还是那句话，我不喜欢抱怨，我也并不是在抱怨，我自己选择了我自己的道路，当然我没有选择战争，但我选择了这条道路。好吧，这场战争落在了我的有生之年，落在了我们这一代人的有生之年。
Original English
**>>**: Very much. Very much. Pointless sentimentality. Maybe that's it. That's how it is. Years have passed, you know, between this and this uh years years. I really I miss them constantly. And it feels like that even when they're right next to me. It's just this habit, this habit of doing work and focusing exclusively on work. Uh even when they're near, I miss them sometimes. meaning well again I don't like to complain and I'm not complaining I chose my own path uh and of course I didn't choose the war but I chose this path well this war it fell on my my lifetime and on the lifetime of our generation
**>>**: 是的，美丽的妻子，美丽的，这是……
Original English
**>>**: yeah beautiful wife and beautiful It's
**>>**: 你的女儿是……
Original English
**>>**: your daughter is um
**>>**: 是的，
Original English
**>>**: Yeah,
**>>**: 你的女儿，她已经不再是个小孩子了。
Original English
**>>**: your daughter she's not a child anymore.
**>>**: 是的，我看……
Original English
**>>**: Yeah, I suck that
**>>**: 他们在过去四、四年里都长大了。
Original English
**>>**: they've all grown up in the last four four years.
**>>**: 她现在已经是个年轻女士了。
Original English
**>>**: She's a young lady now.
**>>**: 确实如此。她真的长大了。是的。长大了。是的。乌克兰所有的孩子也都是如此，这是真的。我曾经说过这个。乌克兰的孩子们是在战争中长大的。完全是事实。他们都长得太成熟了。童年在战争中流逝，这太令人悲伤了。不过，尽管如此，我们坚信和平，和平无论如何都会取得胜利，百分之百。我女儿和我真的是非常要好的朋友。她现在长大了。而且，嗯，她的英语更好。
Original English
**>>**: Very much so. She really has. Yeah. Grown up. Yes. And all the children of Ukraine and it's true. I've said this. The children of Ukraine grew up during the war. Totally true. They are all so grown up. And it's so sad that childhood passed during a war. Well, but nonetheless, we believe in peace, peace will prevail anyway, 100%. And the do my daughter and I are really great friends. She's grown up now. And well, her English is better.
**>>**: 你能花很多时间和孩子们在一起吗？
Original English
**>>**: Do you get to spend a lot of time with the kids?
有时间的时候，我尽量和他们在一起，打电话，我们交谈，现在有很多途径，我们在线上聊，用不同的方式聊，情况就是这样。
Original English
when there's time I I try to be with them to call we talk these days there are plenty of options we talk online we talk in different ways that's how it is
**>>**: 这……这可能做到吗？天哪，我……我从18岁起就一直在做生意，你知道，经营一家初创公司，我以为那是一种挑战，但这完全无法相提并论。我说这个是因为我想到了做生意、对商业如此痴迷是如何让我疏远了生命中的人们和人际关系的，但如果去想一想当你的国家遭到入侵、而你是这个国家的领导人时，去试图维持那些重要关系，尤其是与孩子们的依恋关系，会是怎样的情景，这完全不可同日而语。我几乎无法想象你如何能找到与他们在一起的在场时刻，那种真正的在场。我理解一个人或许可以在短时间内伪装在场，但真正的心智层面的在场，这……这有可能做到吗？
Original English
**>>**: is it is it possible you know gosh I um I've spent since I was 18 years old been running businesses and you know running a startup I you know I thought you know was a was was a challenge but it is incomparable from you know and I say this because I think about how that pulled me away from the people in my life my relationships being so obsessed with business, but it's just totally incomparable to think about what that must be like to try and maintain those important relationships, especially with children when your country is being invaded and you are the leader of that country. I I I almost can't fathom how you can find moments of presence with them, like true presence. I understand how one might be able to like fake presence for a short period of time but true sort of intellectual presence is it is it possible
方式不同，但现在截然不同，绝对如此，但没错，那种在场很重要。你提到的那些时刻——你从18岁起就经商，我想你的一些人际关系可能变成了次要的，而生意总是吞噬你的整个生活，好吧，至少对我来说曾经也是那样。这场战争带来的重新审视，以及这些画面、这些可怕的时刻，切切实实向我表明，生意是次要的。一切都是次要的。眼前的这些人，这才是最重要的，这是你无法挽回的。这些岁月悄然溜走，而在这些紧要关头，你会想起这些人。这很重要。
Original English
differently but differently now absolutely but yes that presence matters and those moments you mentioned you've been in business since you were 18 and some I imagine of your relationships become secondary probably while business always consumes your whole life well at least it was that way for me and this re-evaluation from this war and these images and these horrific moments definitely shows me that business is secondary. Everything is secondary. These people right here, that's what matters most now that you can't get back. These years slip away and in these intense moments you remember these people. It's important.
**>>**: 而你的妻子阿丽娜（Alina）在这一切中一直是你的坚强后盾。我听你表达过，在这整个过程、在所有这些疯狂疯狂的时期里，她一直是你的稳定之源。
Original English
**>>**: And your wife, Alina, has been your rock through it all. I've heard you say she's been your stability throughout all of this, all of these crazy crazy times.
嗯，我们相互支持。确实如此。我们……我认为我有一位非常聪明的妻子，而且她是如此真实。我们有真切的感情。我们彼此相爱、尊……尊重。我认为这非常重要。互相尊重，而且你知道，我该怎么说呢？人与人之间应该觉得彼此有趣。我认为这是最重要的事情。人们需要觉得对方有趣。是的。我们觉得彼此非常有趣。我们感觉很好。我们感觉非常好。
Original English
Well, we support each other. That's true. We um we I think that I have a very um smart uh wife and she is so real. We have real we have real feelings. We we have love and resp and respect. I think that's very important. Um to respect each other and you know how should I put it? People should find each other interesting. I think that's the most important thing. People need to find each other interesting. Yeah. And we find each other very interesting. We feel good. We feel very good.
### 母亲的日常来电
**>>**: 你生命中另一位非常重要的女性，你的父母依然健在，但是你的母亲……
Original English
**>>**: The other um very important woman in your life, your parents are still here, but your mother
**>>**: 是的。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 我听说她几乎每天都给你打电话。至今依然如此。
Original English
**>>**: I heard she calls you uh almost every day. Still.
**>>**: 每一天。
Original English
**>>**: Every single day.
**>>**: 每天。每一天。
Original English
**>>**: Every day. Every single day.
**>>**: 没错。每天。
Original English
**>>**: That's right. Every day.
**>>**: 真的吗？她在哪里……她还住在乌克兰吗？
Original English
**>>**: Really? Where does she's living in Ukraine still?
**>>**: 当你母亲给你打电话时，她每天都说什么？她问你些什么？
Original English
**>>**: When your mother calls you, what does she say every day? What is she asking you?
**>>**: 她的第一个问题是：“你……你居然真接电话了？”
Original English
**>>**: Her first question is did did you actually pick up?
**>>**: 她已经变成那样了，因为我经常……她……我看了一眼，天哪，12个未接来电。“妈，我在工作。”我跟她说，“12个电话。你怎么能给一个人打这么多次电话？”她就一直拨打。她会整天打，直到我接为止。所以我们确保每天通一次话。她问：“我感觉怎么样……”
Original English
**>>**: She's already like that because I so often she I look God 12 missed calls. Mom, I'm working. I tell her 12 calls. How can you call someone so many times? And she keeps dialing. She'll call you all day long until I pick up. So we make sure to speak once a day. She asks, "How I'm feeling
**>>**: “……她担心你吗？”
Original English
**>>**: and is she worried about you?"
**>>**: 哦，是的。是的。是的。“你好吗？你感觉怎么样？孩子们怎么样？告诉我。对了，普京什么时候才会结束战争？”我就说：“妈，我们正在尽一切可能。”
Original English
**>>**: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How are you? How are you feeling? How are the kids? Tell me. Right. When is um Putin going to uh end the war? And I say, "Mom, we're doing everything we can."
### 实地局势与被占领的区域
就目前的局势而言，对于那些不了解乌克兰地面上、实地到底在发生什么，俄罗斯军队目前驻扎在哪里，如果你是一个乌克兰人、日常生活又是怎样的那些人。你能给我解释一下，目前乌克兰的哪些部分被占领了，以及目前乌克兰人的普遍生活状况是怎样的吗？
Original English
And as things stand at the moment for the people don't understand what's actually going on in the ground on the ground in Ukraine, where the Russian troops currently are, what life is like on a day-to-day basis if you're a Ukrainian. Can you explain to me which parts of Ukraine are currently occupied and generally what life is like for Ukrainians at the moment?
嗯，被占领……被占领的是克里米亚（Cremia）。然后他们夺取了亚速海（Azov），那是我们的内海，那是我们的海。他们把它做成……是的，他们把它变成了一个内陆海。他们占领了马里乌波尔（Marupo）。他们占领了马里乌波尔。他们占领了别尔江斯克（Berdansk）。亚速海沿岸全部……刻赤（Kerch）是黑海边的一座城市。他们设法让我们出不去。接下来他们……奥莱什基（Oleski）是目前人们和孩子们被困的地方，没有食物，什么都没有。他们不放他们通过。现在我们正在努力解除封锁。有2500人离开了赫尔松（Heron）。我们奋战夺回了赫尔松这座主要城市。我们收复了它。赫尔松（her son）被第聂伯河（Nepro River）分开。我们的人民生活在一侧河岸，敌人在……
Original English
um occupied uh occupied was Cremia. Then they took the Azov that's an inland uh sea of ours and that's our sea. They made it Yes. They turned it into an inland sea. They took Marupo. They took Marupo. They took Berdansk. All of the Azov Kerch is a city on the Black Sea. They made it so we can't get out. Next they Oleski is where right now uh people and children are trapped without food, without anything. They won't let them through. Right now we are working to unblock it. There were 2,500 people left Heron. We fought to take back the major city of Heron. We reclaimed it. uh her son is split by the Nepro River. Our people live on one bank, the enemy is on the
### 领土控制与前线局势
另一岸，这就是为什么他们炮轰赫尔松（Hers），而扎波罗热（Zaporisia）也在我们的控制之下。所以他们占领了克里米亚（Cremia）、顿涅茨克地区、卢甘斯克地区，他们没能拿下比如所谓的赫尔松（call her son），这部分，这部分是我们的。所以倒过来看，地图就是倒过来的。从这里的哈尔科夫开始，这就是他们所谓的卢甘斯克州，就在这里。这是我们的克拉马托尔斯克（crators），就像这样，就在这里。从这里到马蒂法（matifa），就在这里。扎波罗热是我们的。所以基本上人们可以看到，所有这些，所有这些大约是——抱歉，我不是很擅长画画——所有这些大约占我们领土的18%到19%。大致就是这样，之所以说是大致，因为说实话他们的地图是一回事。他们向自己的人民灌输一种说法。我们有不同的地图。我们坚信我们是对的。嗯，他们自然有一套与社会沟通和呈现信息的方法，但大体上就是这样。
Original English
other bank and that's why they shell out Hers and Zaporisia's also under under our control. So they took Cremia Donetsk region uh Luhansk region they couldn't take like uh call her son this part this part is ours. So upside the map is just upside down. Uh from Kharkif here this is what they call Luhansk oblast right here. This is our crators like this right here. Theyak to matifa right here. Zapuria is ours. So basically people can see that all of this is all of this is this is roughly roughly sorry I'm not very good at drawing. Uh all of this is all of this is roughly 18 18 to 19% of our territory. That's roughly roughly it roughly because their maps are one thing to be honest. They sell uh one story to their pe people. We have different maps. We believe we're right. Well, naturally they have their own their own approach to talking with society and presenting information, but roughly that's what it is.
**>>**: 他们还在不断用导弹和无人机袭击乌克兰的其他地区。对吧。
Original English
**>>**: And they're attacking via missiles and drones other parts of Ukraine constantly. Right.
**>>**: 完全是这样。是的。是的。你看，他们专注于——说实话，你指这里的任何地方都可以。他们今天已经动手了。就在这里，他们在卢茨克（Lut）杀了人。那是在我们国家的西部。就在这里，一枚导弹击中了，他们还袭击了基辅（Keev），就在这里的普里卢基（Puluki）。我们和英国大臣一起去过，看到23人丧生。一直处于持续的炮击之下。罗夫诺（Riv）的袭击相对较少。利沃夫（Leviv），这部分的袭击比较少。说实话，所有这一块区域都远离占领线，远离接触线，远离俄罗斯联邦。所以显然距离很远，这就是为什么那里没有大规模打击的原因。是的。大体上就是这样。
Original English
**>>**: Completely. Yes. Yes. See, they're focused on Well, honestly, you could point everywhere here. They've already started today. Right here, they killed people in Lut. That's the western part of our country. Right here, a missile struck and they're hitting Keev uh Puluki right here. We went with the British secretary saw 23 people killed. Is under constant shelling. Uh well, Riv has fewer strikes. uh Leviv. This part fewer strikes here. This part to be honest, all of this part is far away from uh the line of occupation from the contact line and from the Russian Federation. So obviously the distance is great, which is why there are no massive strikes there. Yes. Well, that's roughly it.
### 俄罗斯的诉求与安全保障
**>>**: 他们到底想达到什么目的？敖德萨（Adessa）遭到炮击，深入腹地。他们想要什么？撤出我们国家的东部，以便普京和东部——这就是他想要的。他基本上想拿下扎波罗热市，但他拿不下。那是他的目标。扎波罗热和尼古拉耶夫（Mikolaf）都是目标。但他并不这么说。他嘴上不说。但归根结底，我们解放了那些城市。我们解放了，而且——
Original English
**>>**: What are they trying to accomplish? Adessa is being shelled deep alive. What do they want to pull out of out of the east of our country so that Putin and the east is here's what he wants. He wants basically he wants to take the city of Zaparisia but he can't. That's a target for him. Zaparisia and Mikolaf all targets. But he doesn't say that. He doesn't say it. But after all, we liberated those cities. We liberated and
**>>**: 但你有没有直接从他们那里听过——
Original English
**>>**: but have you heard directly from them
**>>**: 对。
Original English
**>>**: right
**>>**: ——关于他们的要求是什么？他们说要怎样才肯停止发射导弹？
Original English
**>>**: as to what their demands are? What they say that they want to to stop launching missiles?
**>>**: 是的。他们基本上就是指着这里的整块区域。
Original English
**>>**: Yes. They basically say right here this entire piece.
**>>**: 他们基本上想要拿走乌克兰东部。
Original English
**>>**: They want to take pretty much the the east of Ukraine.
**>>**: 他们想要，是的，东部。这意味着他们想要斯拉维扬斯克（Slovian）。这些都是关键地点。斯拉维扬斯克、克拉马托尔斯克（Kmaturk）、德鲁日基夫卡（Duska），然后直接延伸到第聂伯罗彼得罗夫斯克地区（Nepropet region），进入巴甫洛格勒（Pavlo）、第聂伯罗彼得罗夫斯克（Nepropetk）。这些是最——克里沃罗格（cre）是我的家乡。尼科波尔（Nikop）是一个工业中心、工程中心、制造业中心。这是我们国家的经济命脉。所以这是非常危险的，因为如果你把这部分割让给他们——而这里是我们国家重兵布防的防御线，就像这样。如果我们把我们的这些城市拱手让给他们，那风险是巨大的。如果他想继续推进，进一步推入的话，他可能会夺取我们大量的城市。这种风险是真实的。没有任何人保证任何事情。你明白吗？大家都在谈论安全保障。我们是开放的。我们对此完全持开放态度。我们说：“那好，安全保障，那就加入北约吧。”可是北约，你知道的，俄罗斯人……他们又不断向俄罗斯人传递信号，因为你必须提供安全保障。除此之外，就像我告诉你的，在死了这么多人的情况下，我们已经做出的最大妥协就是停火。让我们先停止这场战争。但他们想让我们进一步撤军。而如果我们撤退了，安全保障又在哪里？更不用说这本身就是不公平的。
Original English
**>>**: They want Yes. the east. That means they want uh Slovian. Well, these are key. Slovian, Kmaturk, uh, Duska and that leads right out into the Nepropet region into uh, Pavlo Nepropetk. These are the most cre is my hometown. Nikop is an industrial hub, an engineering hub, a manufacturing hub. It's the economy uh, of our country. And so it's very dangerous because if you surrender this part to them and this is this is heavily reinforced defense of our nation right here like this. And if we hand these cities of ours over to them then the risk is huge. if he wants to keep going, he could seize a huge number of our cities if he pushes further. And the risk is real. Nobody guarantees anything. You understand? Everyone talks about security guarantees. And we're open. We're completely open to that. We say, "Well, okay, security guarantees. Let's do NATO." Well, NATO, you know, the Russians. Well, again, they keep sending signals to the Russians because you have to give security guarantees. On top of that, like I told you, the biggest compromise with so many dead, the biggest compromise we're already making is a ceasefire. Let's just stop this war. But they want us to pull out even further. And if we pull out, where are the security guarantees? Aside from the fact that it's unfair,
### 核武器风险与特朗普的柴油协议
**>>**: 你谈到了他们对待乌克兰人的野蛮行径。你是否担心过他们在任何时刻可能会升级使用更可怕的武器，比如核武器？你脑海中闪过这种念头吗？
Original English
**>>**: you know, you talked about the barbaric nature of how they've treated Ukrainians. Are you at all concerned that they might escalate using more horrific weapons like nuclear weapons at any point? Has that ever crossed your mind?
在他们做出了这些事情之后，每个人脑海中都会闪过他们可能会做出更恶劣之事的念头。但截至今天，我认为他们不会冒使用核武器的风险，因为到那时，我认为他们绝对——我很确定他们将不再拥有任何盟友，包括像美国、中国这样的国家。不好意思，即便是对核大国来说，那也未免太危险了。这意味着如果一个国家可以这么做，那么如果其他大陆、其他战区——我不知道，中东或其他地方——发生冲突，如果核武器被使用了一次，它就可能被使用第二次、第三次。所以我认为普京不会冒使用核武器的风险。但话说回来，你看，我们面对的是一个人，一个直到生命尽头都会死死抱住他、而他也死死依附其中的体制，因为只有当他的生命结束时，他才会离开克里姆林宫并交出——也就是物理上交出、自然过渡权力。对此我深信不疑。关于本周特朗普与俄罗斯达成的这项协议的现状。据我理解，因为全球存在能源危机，特朗普现在与俄罗斯就柴油做了一笔交易。然后他要求你们不要袭击俄罗斯境内的任何能源基础设施。
Original English
Well, it crosses everyone's mind after what they've done that they might do something worse. But as of today, well, I don't think they'll take the risk of using nuclear weapons because then I think they won't definitely I'm sure they won't have any allies left, including countries like America, China. Well, excuse me, but that that's far too dangerous even for nuclear powers. That means if one country can do it then if there's a conflict somewhere else on another continent in another theater I don't know the Middle East whatever that means if a nuclear weapon is used once it might be used a second and a third time so I don't think Putin will risk uh nuclear weapons but then again we're dealing with look we're dealing with a man and with a system that until the end of his days will hold on to him and he to it because only when his life ends will he leave the Kremlin and hand over well physically hand over naturally transfer power. I'm more than certain of that. regarding the the current situation this week with with Trump with Russia and this deal that's been done. From my understanding because there's an energy crisis globally, Trump has now done a deal with Russia for diesel. He then asked you not to attack any energy infrastructure in Russia.
**>>**: 没有。
Original English
**>>**: No.
**>>**: 我这里其实有一段他描述这件事情的视频，现在很多人都看过了。我放一下。
Original English
**>>**: Um there's a there's a video that I actually have here of him describing this which um a lot of people have have now seen. I'll play it.
**>>**: “好吧，我有不同的看法。泽连斯基（Zalinski）本可以多次解决这场战争。他选择不这么做。非常困难。这是一场本不该开始的战争。如果我是总统，如果选举没有被操纵，我本来会是总统，而那场战争就绝不会发生。我们说过你可以对俄罗斯做任何你想做的事。但别打炼油厂，因为那引发了全球问题。而他想给世界制造麻烦。他想用柴油给我们的农民、我们的牧场主制造麻烦。因为俄罗斯供应了全世界很大一部分的柴油。我们告诉过他们：‘做任何你想做的事，但别打柴油燃料，因为有大面积的农作物、大面积的短缺。’而他做了什么？他跑去打击柴油燃料。做你想做的事，别打炼油厂。有的是目标。结果他跑去打了，他不能去影响我们的农民，他不能去影响我们的牧场主，他不能去影响世界其他地方。所以，他最好他妈的给我停下来。”而且在里面他说，他认为乌克兰需要一位新总统。
Original English
**>>**: Well, I look at it differently. Zalinski could have settled this war many times. He chooses not to. Very difficult. Uh it's a war that should have never been started. If I were president, if the election weren't rigged, I would have been president and that war would have never started. We said you could do whatever you want to Russia. Don't hit the refineries because that's a world problem that's caused. And he wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranchers with diesel fuel. because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world. And we told them, "Do whatever you want, but don't hit the diesel fuel because there's a big crop of big shortage." And what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel fuel. Do what you want. Don't hit refineries. There's plenty of target. And he went out and he hit and he's not going to affect our farmers and he's not going to affect our ranchers and he's not going to affect the rest of the world. So, uh, we he's better damn well stop. And in that he says that he thinks the Ukraine needs a new president.
**>>**: 是的。首先，柴油出口毫无影响。来自俄罗斯的柴油出口量是如此微不足道，对美利坚合众国的物价影响为零。那完全是虚假信息。这是第一点。第二，我们打击俄罗斯的能源基础设施毫无目的性可言，我们实施反击是因为他们打击了我们的能源基础设施。我们对此谈过很多次了。俄罗斯人打击了我们的电网。我们的人民生活在断电中。我们没有石油、天然气、柴油等等。这会伤害他们。而伤害我们的是电力。他们打击我们的电力，我们就反击他们的柴油。他们靠柴油赚钱并把钱花在武器上。我的提议是——不好意思，我本不需要这样。我一直告诉特朗普总统，促成一次能源停火，至少在能源上停火。至少让人们有电用，对俄罗斯人也有好处。如果他们想卖石油就卖，如果那是你所需要的。但特朗普总统无法在这件事上与普京达成协议。普京拒绝给予他能源停火。于是这位总统决定不把这个问题归咎于普京，而是归咎于我，向他的人民解释说正因如此美国的柴油价格才会上涨。那完全不属实，我也无法理解。我同他、同特朗普有着良好的关系，我认为他把俄罗斯的侵略和俄罗斯的杀戮归咎于我，这是错误的，也是不可接受的。他在转移语境，这不公平。这就是为什么我坦率地说那是不公平的。停火。他说行不通。他们解决不了。好吧，如果你们解决不了，但你们又需要柴油的话。再次说明，我认为这只是为了将注意力从伊朗、从中东正在发生的事情上引开。那边的全部体量都被封锁了。那正是完全无法解决问题的地方。能源，霍尔木兹海峡被封锁了。那是问题的根源。但是——
Original English
**>>**: Yeah. Um first of all uh diesel exports have no impact. The volume of diesel exports is so negligible uh from Russia that it has zero impact on prices in the United States of America. That is totally false information. That's first. Second, it makes no sense for us to strike Russia's energy infrastructure. We retaliate because because they strike our energy infrastructure. We've spoken a lot about this. The Russians hit our energy grid. Our people live without power. We don't have oil, gas, diesel, and so on. That hurts them. What hurts us is electricity. They hit our electricity. We strike back at their diesel. They make money on diesel and spend it on weapons. My offer, excuse me, but I don't need this. I've always told President Trump, broker an energy ceasefire, at least on energy. At least let's give people light and good for the Russians. They'll sell their oil if they want to, if that's what you need. But President Trump can't reach an agreement with Putin on this. Putin refuses him an energy ceasefire. And so the president decided to pin this problem not on Putin but on me explaining to his people that because of this diesel prices in America are going up. That is completely untrue and I don't understand. I have a good relationship with him with Trump and I think it's wrong and unacceptable that he pins Russia's aggression and Russia's killings on me. He is shifting the context and that's not fair. And that's why I honestly said that's unfair. Ceasefire. He says it's not work. They can't work it out. Well, if you can't work it out, but you need diesel, though. Again, I think this is just deflecting uh the focus away from Iran from what's happening in the Middle East. The entire volume is blocked over there. That's exactly where nothing is working out. Energy, the straight of Hormuz is blocked. That's the root of the problem. But
### 防空导弹与柴油价格
一切都被推到了我们身上，而我作为国家的领导人成了众矢之的。所以我说：“好，你无法迫使普京停止战争并达成能源休战。那就给我防空导弹。我不会朝任何人开火。我会保护我们的能源部门。那么我究竟哪里不公道了？在什么方面？”我问他：“给我们导弹。”不是免费要。再说一遍，甚至都不是免费的。欧洲人在为此出资，承担所有的费用。是有协议的，但他……但他们就是不给我们。他们说我们给不了。他们把一切都给而且已经给了中东。
你看，这简直就是……好吧，呃，这就像……好吧，这对中东不公平。呃，爱国者导弹，呃，和普京做柴油交易。外界指望我对乌克兰境内的能源袭击不作反击，而美国的柴油价格正在上涨，因为……这很不公平，你们需要换一位总统。好吧，关于柴油价格，我向你百分之百保证。柴油价格并不取决于俄罗斯出售的交易量。它就是不取决于这个。
Original English
everything gets shifted onto us. and I'm made the target as the leader of our country. So I said, "Okay, you can't force Putin to stop the war and make an energy truce. Give me air defense missiles. I won't fire at anyone. I'll protect our energy sector. So where am I being unfair? In what way?" I asked him, "Give us missiles." Not for free. Again, not even for free. Europeans are funding this, funding all of it. There's an agreement, but he but they won't give them to us. They say we can't. They give and have given everything to the Middle East.
Look, it's just kind of well uh it's just like like well it's unfair to the Middle East. Uh Patriot missiles uh with Putin a diesel deal. I'm expected not to respond to an energy attack on inside Ukraine and diesel prices are rising in America because of it's it's unfair and you need a different president. Well, diesel prices, I guarantee you 100%. Diesel prices don't depend on the volume that Russia sells. They just don't.
### 结束战争的现实路径
**>>**: 根据最近的一些调查，大约76%的乌克兰人也表示他们现在不想要举行选举。我向您提的最后一个问题是，总统先生，是否存在一条结束这场战争的现实路径？那会是什么样子的？一条现实路径。特朗普可以非常容易地把普京拉到谈判桌前，因为他需要这么做。特朗普总统谈论我的那种方式，他需要对普京采取同样的那种措辞。你为什么认为他没有……
Original English
**>>**: And about 76% of Ukrainians say they wouldn't want an election now, according to some recent surveys as well. My last question to you, Mr. for president is is there a realistic path to the end of this war? And what does that look like? A realistic path. Trump can bring Putin to the negotiating table very easily because he needs to. The way he talks about me, President Trump, he needs to adopt that kind of rhetoric about Putin. Why do you think he's not
**>>**: 我不知道。老实说，我不知道。他的办公桌上放着制裁法案。投票的并不是他，国会投票通过了强有力的制裁。他是能做到的。他本来可以……我不知道为什么。也许他们有着特殊关系。也许是别的什么。我说不上来。我并不是什么都知道。我只能猜测存在某些经济交易等等。一段旧的……我不知道。我不想去猜。好吧，中期选举就要到了，我认为他可能对美国的能源价格有些担忧，或许超过对乌克兰的担忧。
Original English
**>>**: I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. He's got sanctions on his desk. It wasn't him voting. Congress voted for strong sanctions. He can do it. He could I don't know why. Maybe they have a special relationship. Maybe something else. I can't tell you. I don't know everything. I can only guess some economic deals and so on. An old re I don't know. I don't want to. Well, the midterms are coming up and I think he might be a little bit concerned about energy prices in America, more so than maybe Ukraine.
**>>**: 是的。呃，你看，柴油价格，我百分之百告诉你。柴油价格并不取决于俄罗斯出售的交易量。并不取决于。美国人出口能源资源。能源出口对美国人并没有被禁止。美国公司在出口。这很有意思。为什么美国公司会出口能源？好吧，因为美国总统怎么可能禁止私营部门出口呢？好吧，我认为他做不到。而且他为什么要禁呢？东西卖出去了，资金就进来了。这只是……你知道，生命中……时间……你知道，所有的秘密、所有的谜团最终总会大白于天下。这只是需要时间。时间绝对站在那些坦诚、准备好进行诚实对话与抗争的人一边。是的。这意味着时间会站在我们这一边。你对我们的观众有什么临别赠言吗？你知道……
Original English
**>>**: Yeah. Well, uh, look, diesel prices, I give you a 100%. Diesel prices don't depend on the volume Russia sells. They don't. Americans export energy resources. Americans energy exports aren't banned for Americans. American companies export. It's interesting. Why do American companies e export energy? Well, because how can the president of the United States ban private sector exports? Well, I don't think he can. And why would he? It sells and money comes in. Well, just well do you know how life time you know all all secrets all mysteries always come to light. It just takes time. Time is definitely on the side of those who are open and ready for honest dialogue and fight. Yes. Which means time will be on our side. What are your last words to our audience? You know,
### 对美国观众的赠言与结束致谢
**>>**: 我希望这不是最后的遗言。
Original English
**>>**: I hope that it's not last words.
**>>**: 今天的结束语。我生命中的。
Original English
**>>**: Last words for today in my life.
**>>**: 今天的结束语。你知道，我们有一半的观众在美国。
Original English
**>>**: Last words today. You know, half of our audience are in America.
**>>**: 我祝愿美国——它自身也陷入了非常艰难的境地。我认为这是因为世界已经疯了。俄罗斯人那边正在发生的事情，还有伊朗，人们渴望流血，人们想要战争这一事实。我祝愿美国继续保持一个伟大的国家，保持坚强，保持和平，拥有这样的机会——有人工作，有人想在家里陪孩子、祈祷、共进家庭……呃，家庭晚餐。我祝愿美国安宁、和平，我们对美国为乌克兰所做的一切深表感激。我们不会忘记这一点的。
Original English
**>>**: I wish America which finds itself in a very tough situation. I believe because the world has gone crazy. what's happening with the Russians, with Iran, the fact that people want blood, people want wars. I wish America would stay a great nation, be strong, be peaceful, have the chance, someone works, someone wants to be home with the kids, pray, have a family uh family dinner. I wish America tranquility, peace, and we're grateful for everything America has done for Ukraine. We won't forget this,
**>>**: 总统先生，非常感谢你。
Original English
**>>**: President. Thank you so much.
**>>**: 非常感谢你。
Original English
**>>**: Thank you so much.
**>>**: 我知道你度过了非常艰难的一周，情况一直很不容易。因此，我非常感谢你抽出时间。经历了星链和网络的一切问题，还有……
Original English
**>>**: I know you've had a really rough week and it's been very tough. So, I really appreciate you taking the time. I've had everything going on with Starlink and the internet and
**>>**: 所有的挑战。所以……
Original English
**>>**: all the challenges. So,
**>>**: 正常。
Original English
**>>**: normal.
**>>**: 是啊。
Original English
**>>**: Yeah.
**>>**: 非常感谢你。
Original English
**>>**: Thank you so much.
**>>**: 我们真的祝你一切顺利。我们真的祝你一切安好。好的。是的。是的。我也很高兴听到、见到你并进行对话。我们进行了很好的对话。我认为……我认为我们谈得非常好。所以，非常感谢你。
Original English
**>>**: And we really do wish you the best. We really wish you the best. Okay. Yes. Yes. And I was happy to hear to see you and to have a dialogue. We had good dialogue. I think I think we spoke very good. So, thank you so much.
**>>**: 非常感谢你。祝一切顺利。非常感谢你。谢谢。非常感谢。
Original English
**>>**: Thank you so much. All the best. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much.
**>>**: YouTube有一个疯狂的新算法，他们基于人工智能和你的所有观看行为，能够精确知道你接下来想看什么视频。算法说这个视频对你来说是完美的视频。对现在正在观看的每个人来说都是不同的。看看这个视频，我敢打赌你可能会喜欢它。
Original English
**>>**: YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out and I bet you you might love it.