--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-30' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z_3nglwwdg speaker: TVO Today tags: - grief - storytelling - death-care - shipwreck title: 五大湖沉船鬼故事与临终导乐的哀伤陪伴 summary: 节目探讨了五大湖数千起海难与幽灵传说，作家马克·莱斯利分享了当地海难历史及鬼故事背后对逝者的缅怀；随后作家兼临终导乐凯瑟琳·埃尔南德斯介绍了临终导乐在陪伴临终、处理大小哀伤及仪式化见证生命中的角色。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: psychology area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Mark Leslie - Catherine Hernandez - Jeyan Jeganathan companies_orgs: - TVO products_models: [] media_books: - Ghost Stories of the Great Lakes - The Book of Beloved Dead status: evergreen --- ### 五大湖海难与幽灵传说 >> 一艘载有 29 名船员的货轮昨晚在苏必利尔湖遭遇强风暴失踪。到目前为止，尚未发现任何幸存者。
Original English >> A freighter carrying a crew of 29 disappeared on Lake Superior during a severe storm last night. And so far, no survivors have been found.
>> 那是 1975 年 11 月 NBC 的汤姆·布罗考（Tom Brokaw），向全美和加拿大千家万户客厅里数百万人播报这则新闻。一艘名为埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号（SS Edmund Fitzgerald）的船沉没了。它成为了五大湖历史上最臭名昭著的海难之一。但这绝非第一起。据估计，五大湖发生过多达 6000 多起沉船事故，夺去了至少 30,000 人的生命。几百年来发生了如此多的悲剧和谜团，难怪五大湖激发出属于它们自己的众多鬼故事。但这些故事从何而来，又为何历久不衰？我们探访五大湖，进一步了解它们的超自然历史。而且这些故事不仅仅是吓人的娱乐消遣。它们植根于人类对死亡现实的深刻恐惧。然而，在情感和实际层面上为死亡做好准备，是我们很多人都不太擅长谈论的事情。这也是为什么越来越多的人开始求助于临终导乐（death doulas）。我们探讨她们的工作以及她们在临终关怀中扮演的角色。我是杰扬·杰加纳森（Jeyan Jeganathan）。欢迎收看《The Rundown》。我不会用我的歌声来折磨你们，但你们可能知道那首歌，以及那句歌词——据说苏必利尔湖从不归还她的死者。那是戈登·莱特福特（Gordon Lightfoot）的《埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号的沉没》（The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald）。数百年间，五大湖成为了数万人的长眠之地。但在受这些悲剧启发的鬼故事中，幽灵船仍在航行。马克·莱斯利（Mark Leslie），非常高兴你能做客《The Rundown》。你最近怎么样？
Original English >> That was NBC's Tom Brokaw in November 1975, announcing the news to millions in living rooms across the United States and Canada. A ship called the SS Edmund Fitzgerald had sunk. It would become one of the most notorious shipwrecks in the history of the Great Lakes. But it was far from the first. It's estimated there have been more than 6000, claiming at least 30,000 lives. With so many tragedies and mysteries over the centuries, it's no surprise that the Great Lakes have inspired their share of ghost stories. But where did these stories come from and why do they endure? We take a tour of the Great Lakes to find out more about their supernatural history. And these stories aren't just spooky entertainment. They're grounded in deep human fears about the realities of death. But preparing emotionally and practically for death is something many of us aren't very good at talking about. That's one of the reasons more people are turning to death. Doulas. We look at what they do and the role they can play in end of life care. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan. Welcome to The Rundown. I'm not going to torture you with my singing voice, but you probably know the song and the line superior. They said, never gives up her dead. It's Gordon Lightfoot, the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And over hundreds of years, the Great Lakes became the final resting place for tens of thousands of people. But in ghost stories inspired by these tragedies, phantom ships are still sailing. Mark Leslie, great to have you on The Rundown. How are you doing?
>> 噢，我非常好。很高兴来到这里。
Original English >> Oh, I'm doing great. I'm delighted to be here.
>> 谢谢你。很高兴你能来。祝贺你的新书《五大湖鬼故事》（Ghost Stories of the Great Lakes）。不过在我们深入探讨之前，我得问问房间里的大象，或者说是房间里的骷髅。这位是谁？
Original English >> Thank you. Well, great to have you. Congratulations on your book, Ghost Stories of the Great Lakes. Before we delve into this, though, I need to ask you about the elephant in the room, or rather the skeleton in the room. Who's this?
>> 这是巴纳比·伯恩斯（Barnaby Bones）。他是我的骷髅伙伴吉祥物。也许算是情绪支持骷髅。
Original English >> This is Barnaby Bones. He is my skeletal companion mascot. Maybe emotional support skeleton.
>> 他会参与我们的对话吗，还是……
Original English >> Will he be contributing to our conversation, or.
>> 不会。他只会脸上带着傻傻的笑容。他喜欢鬼故事，也喜欢四处闲逛，所以……
Original English >> No. He's just going to have a goofy grin on his face. He loves ghost stories, and he loves hanging out, so.
>> 好吧，他凑近了。那我们开始吧。好的。五大湖最近一直是大家关注的焦点，尤其是安大略湖。众所周知，美国总统唐纳德·特朗普决定更改美国人对那座湖的称呼。但你的书基本上忽略了那些边界，通过这些简短的鬼故事将我们联结在一起。帮我们理解一下你为什么想这样写这本书。
Original English >> Okay, he's leaned in. So there we go. All right. The Great Lakes have been top of mind lately, especially Lake Ontario. As we know, U.S. President Donald Trump has decided to change what Americans call that lake. But your book ignores, largely ignores those borders, and it unites us through these short ghost stories. Help us understand why you wanted to write the book like this.
>> 嗯，是的。鬼故事确实能联结人们。这是最普遍的事情之一。无论什么文化，无论人们来自哪里，总会有某种故事去探索人死后会发生什么，我们的灵魂会去往何处？究竟有没有灵魂？诸如此类。这本书始于我和来自哈密尔顿 Wolsak and Wynn 出版社的诺埃尔·艾伦（Noel Allen）交谈，她想出一本关于五大湖的鬼故事书。我想，太棒了。我写过很多其他故事。是什么能让这本区别于市面上所有其他的书呢？其中一部分在于我们的切入方式。我们想做某种环行，从出版社所在的安大略省哈密尔顿附近开始。也就是从滨湖尼亚加拉出发，绕着走，就像我们在进行一次水上巡游。好的，我们要在哈密尔顿、多伦多和金斯顿停留，一路从安大略湖经由水路返回，最终到达苏必利尔湖。但另一个独特之处在于包含了其他湖泊，比如圣克莱尔湖、韦兰运河，还有连接它们的河流，因为我总是认为圣克莱尔湖就像被忽视的中间孩子。在五大湖当中，它可能确实算得上。
Original English >> Well, yeah. Ghost stories do unite people. It's one of the most common things. No matter what culture, where people are from, there's always some sort of stories about the wondering what happens after we die, what happens to our spirits? Are there spirits? Things like that. This book originated when I was talking with Noel Allen from Wolsak and Wynn in Hamilton, and she wanted to do a ghost story book for the Great Lakes. And I thought, great. I've done numerous other stories. What would make this one unique from all the other ones out there? And part of it was the way we approached it. We wanted to kind of circumnavigate, starting near Hamilton, Ontario, where the publishers from. So starting in Niagara on the Lake, working our way around as if we were on a bit of a of a tour, a water tour. Okay, we're going to stop in Hamilton and Toronto and Kingston and make our way all the way back from Lake Ontario, up through the waterways, and eventually to Lake Superior. But one of the other unique things is including the other lakes like Lake Saint Clair, the Welland Canal, you know, the rivers that connect them, because I always think of Lake Saint Clair as the overlooked middle child. Potentially it is. When you think about the Great Lakes.
>> 马克，你非常出色地将死于五大湖的真实人物的历史事实与这些简短的鬼故事融合在了一起。是什么启发了这种方式？
Original English >> Mark, you do a great job of blending historical facts about real people who have died on the Great Lakes with these short ghost stories. What inspired this approach?
>> 嗯，每当我做这样的叙事时，我总是采取一种我称之为罗德·瑟林（Rod Serling）式的声调，并且我牢记自己是一个虚拟导游，我首先要做的是向人们介绍那个地点。以及该地点的独特之处，然后尝试激发他们的想象力。那就是我带入一点那种语调的地方。我运用自己从文章、博物馆、书籍中调研的故事，将它们汇集在一起，然后尝试用我自己的声音重新讲述那些故事，其方式可能会让叙事顺畅地流淌。就像刚才说的，大概就像大巴上的导游一样。
Original English >> Well, I always take on what I call a Rod Serling voice when I when I do a narrative like this, and I'm remembering that I'm a virtual tour guide, and what I first want to do is introduce people to the location. And what's unique about that location, and then try to get their imaginations running. That's where I put on a bit of the voice. I apply stories that I've researched from articles from, you know, from museums, from books, bringing them together, and then try to retell those stories in my own voice in a way that can potentially allow the narrative to flow. Like again, like a tour guide on a bus, perhaps.
>> 你的故事有很大一部分归功于五大湖沿岸的原住民社区，包括据说可能基本上在安大略湖中游弋穿行的一条巨型大海蛇的故事。跟我谈谈那些帮助你整理这些故事的人吧。
Original English >> A large number of your stories are attributed to indigenous communities, along with along the Great Lakes, including there's the story of a large sea serpent that might be, you know, swimming and guiding through its Lake Ontario, essentially. Tell me about the people who helped you put those stories together.
>> 是的。所以我同样依靠来自长辈、来自社区的研究，阅读一些内容、一些故事，并运用一些历史学家的文献，以及几千年来代代相传关于这些生活在水中的生物的历史报纸，它们有的保护我们，有的试图造成伤害。
Original English >> Yeah. So again, I rely on the research from the elders, from the communities as well, reading some of the some of the content, some of the stories, applying, some of the historian documentation, historic newspapers as well that have passed on through thousands of years of generations of these creatures that live in the waters, some of them protecting us, some of them trying to do harm.
### 湖难水下遗址与未解之谜 >> 我想很多人或者很多观众和听众会说，一提到五大湖上的鬼故事或海难故事及发生的事情，他们就会想到埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号。对许多不熟悉的人来说，那是一艘 1975 年在苏必利尔湖沉没的船，船上所有船员无一生还。但在你的……单谈苏必利尔湖，就发生过很多事情。在你的海难调研过程中，有什么让你特别难忘的事情吗？那些也许没有得到足够关注的故事。
Original English >> I think a lot of people or a lot of viewers and listeners will say, when it comes to ghost stories or stories about shipwrecks and things happen on the Great Lakes, they think about the Edmund Fitzgerald. That's a ship for a lot of people who aren't familiar. That sank in Lake Superior, all of its crew members in 1975 did not survive. But there are other massive shipwrecks in your. When we talk about Lake Superior alone, there is a lot that's happened. Was there anything that stuck out to you during your research about shipwrecks? These stories that perhaps don't get enough attention.
>> 是的。令人惊叹的是，埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号似乎代表了可能降临在水手身上的悲剧，尤其是在一年中的某些时候，当条件凑齐时。这些内陆海可能会变得非常险恶和无情。其中一个故事，我想是坎卢普斯号（SS Kamloops），也是发生在苏必利尔湖，当时它在 1927 年沉没。它当时正开往桑德贝（Thunder Bay），然后沉没了。它在 50 年内都没有被发现。潜水员在 50 年后找到了它。当他们在周围潜游时，船上容纳的死者尸体在冰冷的水中保存完好。被他们起绰号为“老白”（Old Whitey）的其中一个鬼魂似乎一直跟着他们。不是鬼魂，而是尸体。显然，当你从物理学角度考虑时，因为我总得去寻找能解释这些事情的原因，当潜水员游过时，他们制造了水流。那具遗体就跟着他们游动。但甚至在多年之后，遗体被打捞上来之后，人们声称在探索那艘沉船时，有时仍能感觉到老白跟随在他们身后的存在。
Original English >> Yeah. It's amazing how the Edmund Fitzgerald seems to represent the tragedy that can happen to sailors, especially at certain times of the year when the conditions are right. These inland seas can become very vicious and unforgiving. One of the stories, I think was the SS Kamloops also took place in Lake Superior when it went down in 1927. And and it was on its way to Thunder Bay and it sunk. And it was not discovered for 50 years. There were divers that found it in, you know, 50 years later. And as they were swimming about, you know, the dead bodies on board that were contained, they were they were preserved in the cold water. And one of the ghosts that they nicknamed Old Whitey seemed to follow them around. Not the ghost, but the corpse. You know, obviously when you think about physics, because I always have to look at what could explain these things, you know, as as they're as they're swimming by, they're creating currents. And the body was following them around. But even years later, after the bodies were recovered, people claim that they sometimes feel the presence of old whitey following them around as they're exploring the shipwreck.
>> 我想回到埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号。除了戈登·莱特福特在 1976 年那首标志性的歌曲之外，那个故事究竟有什么特质能引起很多人的共鸣？
Original English >> I want to go back to the Edmund Fitzgerald. What is it outside of Gordon Lightfoot's, you know, iconic song in 1976? But outside of that, what is it about that story that seems to resonate with a lot of people?
>> 嗯，我的意思是，那首曲子非常动听。是的，确实如此。真是太美了。他是如此出色的大师级故事讲述者，但他讲述的是一个真实的故事。这是一个联结加拿大人和美国人的故事，因为五大湖通过电子商务把他们联系在一起，对吧。它当时正在开往克利夫兰的途中，穿过苏必利尔湖。这也是一个谜团，因为他们收到了那唯一一次无线电通讯。你又在歌里听到了它，当然，当你再多研究一点，你就会得到更多细节。但它当时在另一艘船前方大约 16 公里处。而当另一艘船驶过时，它已经消失了。就像曾有这样一个警告。船长曾联络过，基本上说“我们遇到了麻烦”。然后它就消失了。船上总共 29 条生命全部丧生。
Original English >> Well, I mean, it's a really catchy tune. Yes, it is indeed. It's just beautiful. I mean, he was such a master storyteller, but he took a story. And this is a story that unites Canadians and Americans because the Great Lakes do that with e-commerce, right. It was on its way to Cleveland. It was coming through Lake Superior. And it's a mystery, too, because they got that one transmission. And again, you hear it in the song, of course, when you study it a little bit more, you get a little bit more of the details. But it was about 16km ahead of another ship. And that other ship, as it came through, it was gone. It was like there was this warning. The captain had reached out and said, we're we're in trouble, basically. And then it disappeared. In all, 29 souls aboard were lost.
>> 这些湖泊中的许多沉船已被指定为受保护的水下墓地。是的。这究竟意味着什么？
Original English >> Many shipwrecks in these lakes have been designated as protected underwater grave sites. Yes. What does that actually mean?
>> 嗯，那意味着你基本上不能下去触碰任何东西。在哈密尔顿海岸和圣凯瑟琳斯那一带的汉密尔顿号（Hamilton）和斯库吉号（Scourge），是 1812 年战争中沉没的两艘船，多年后经常被人目击，就像飞翔的荷兰人那样在水面上方漂浮的传说。但没错，那意味着你不能破坏墓地。你不能下去触摸它。所以它是一个被指定的历史墓地。如果有人乱动，就会面临巨额罚款。所以这是为了尊重逝者，而在这些故事中，我们在许多方面确实做到了这一点。
Original English >> Well, that means you can't go down and touch things, basically. And the Hamilton and Scourge off the coast of Hamilton and sort of Saint Catherine's in that area, the war of 1812, the two that went down that are often seen, like, you know, the Flying Dutchman, tales of floating above the water. Years later. But yeah, that means you can't disturb the gravesite. You can't go down and touch it. So it is a designated historic grave. And so, you know, major fines. If anyone messes, messes with that. So it's, it's meant to respect the dead, which, you know, we, we, we do in these stories in many ways.
>> 那我们顺着这个继续说。作为安大略人，乃至生活在五大湖周围的人，我们在保持这些地方受到保护和尊崇方面扮演着怎样的角色？
Original English >> Well, let's, let's pick up on that. What is our role not only as Ontarians, but people who live around the Great Lakes, sort of keeping these spaces protected and honoured.
>> 我认为这是对靠水谋生的人们以及在水中丧生的灵魂的尊重。亡灵节期间的 10 月 28 日也是纪念在水中遇难者的一天。而且我认为，通过分享那些坚守岗位的灯塔看守人的英勇故事——他们是如此敬业；分享那些在海上失去亲人的人的故事——我们仍然可以看到他们站在岸边，渴望地望着远方，期盼着那位再也不会回来的迷途水手或失落爱人。我认为我们通过分享这些故事来缅怀他们的遗泽，有时这种方式——尤其是在万圣节——有点吓人，会让你打个寒颤，会让你去想“万一呢”。但在很多方面，这真真切切是为了尊重那些逝去者的生命。
Original English >> I think it's it's a respect for the people who make their livelihood on the water and the souls who've been lost on the water. October 28th is from the day of the dead is a day to honour those who have been lost at water as well. And. And I think by sharing the tales of the bravery of the of the light keepers who never left their watch. They were so dedicated of the of the people who lost someone at sea. And we can still see them standing on the shores, looking out longingly for that lost sailor or that lost lover who is never going to come back, I think. I think we honour their legacy by sharing these stories, and sometimes it's in a way that, you know, especially at Halloween, it's a little creepy. It's gives you a little shivers. It makes you wonder, what if. But in many ways, it really, truly is about respecting the lives of of those who were lost.
>> 我必须得问，因为你把巴纳比·琼斯（Barnaby Jones）带到了这里。你经常感到害怕吗？
Original English >> I have to ask, because you brought in Barnaby Jones here. Do you get scared often?
>> 你知道吗？我是你能见到的最胆小的人了。如果这里的灯突然熄灭，我会是第一个尖叫的人。可能会直接跳进你的怀里寻求保护。而且我常想，写这样的书，对我来说可能是一种廉价的心理疗愈。
Original English >> You know what? I am the biggest chicken you will ever meet. If the lights were suddenly to go out here, I would be the first one to scream. Probably jump into your lap to protect me. And I often think that writing books like this. Maybe it's a cheap form of therapy for me.
>> 在你的调研过程中，有没有哪个故事真的基本上让你夜不能寐？
Original English >> Was there a story in particular during your research that really keeps you up at night? Essentially?
>> 有的。你知道是什么吗？是滨湖尼亚加拉那个披披肩的女士的故事，就在斯蒂芬·金原作、大卫·柯南伯格导演的电影《死亡禁区》（The Dead Zone）捐赠给该市的凉亭附近。故事讲述了这位失去了丈夫的女人。他们在一次吵架后丈夫乘船出海，后来船回来了，他却再也没有回来。他们曾大吵了一架，她想去道歉。于是她走入水中去陪伴他。传说有时当条件适合时，你站在凉亭里向外望去，你会看到这个女人，当她在海滩上走来走去时你能听到这些哀号声，然后她通常会转过头来看你一眼，接着将目光投向安大略湖的中心，径直走去，直到消失在波浪中。这让我久久不能忘怀。
Original English >> Yeah. You know what? It's it's the lady in the shawl in Niagara on the Lake, and it's near the gazebo that was donated to the city from the dead zone. Stephen King. David. David Cronenberg's film. And it's the story about this woman who lost her husband. And he went out in a boat after they had had a fight, and the boat came back, and he never came back. And they had been in a big argument, and she wanted to apologise. And she walked out into the water to be with him. And the legend is, is sometimes when the conditions are right and you're standing in the gazebo and you're looking out there, you see this woman, you can hear these wails as she walks up and down the beach, and then she usually turns to look back at you before setting her eyes on the middle of Lake Ontario and just walking out until she disappears into the waves. That sticks with me.
>> 我承认，读那个故事确实令人心碎。还有什么你认为读者听到会感到吃惊的吗？也许就在他们身边、人们可能没谈论过的故事？
Original English >> I will admit, reading that story, it was heartbreaking. Is there any more that that you think readers might be startled to hear? Maybe one in their backyard that perhaps people haven't talked about?
>> 是的，当然。任何走在多伦多湖滨的人，在加德纳快速路靠湖一侧的任何地方行走，其实都是走在安大略湖的幽灵之上，因为我们知道，追溯历史，那全都是填湖造陆而成的。所以当你思考这点时很有意思，那是城市很美的一部分。我喜欢靠近水边，但也让我思考，就在几百年前，那是安大略湖，而我们现在把自己推向了那里。我们不禁会想，那里生活着什么？那是那么大、那么宽广的一片土地。所以像这样的事情，还有像直布罗陀角灯塔（Gibraltar Lighthouse）的谜团，我们至今仍不知道那是一起谋杀还是意外？为什么人们会在那里看到和听到奇怪的东西。
Original English >> Yeah, of course. Anyone walking in, you know, in Toronto, on the waterfront, you know, anywhere on the lake side of the Expressway of the Gardiner is walking on the ghost of Lake Ontario because we know, you know, you go back historically, that's all been filled in from land. So it's kind of interesting when you think about this, you know, it's a beautiful part of the city. I love being near the water, but it also makes me wonder, you know, just a few hundred years ago, that was that was Lake Ontario that we've now, you know, pushed ourselves into. And we wonder what what is it that's living there? And that's such a big, vast expanse of land. So things like that, things like the Gibraltar Lighthouse and the mystery that we still don't know. Was it a murder? Was it an accident? And why do people see and hear strange things there.
>> 对于不熟悉的观众，那里的故事是怎样的？
Original English >> For, for viewers who aren't, who are not familiar with what's the story there?
>> 那里曾有一位来自德国的酿酒师，他在那里酿造啤酒。约克堡的士兵们自然会去向他买啤酒。有一种说法是，当没有足够的啤酒给他们时，他可能被谋杀了。发生了一场扭打，据称他的身体部位散落在那个地区的各处。后来确实发现了一具尸体，但没有确认是他的。所以这让人怀疑，那具尸体到底是谁的？所以这真是一个接一个的谜团。这在多伦多我们自己的后院里是一件挺耐人寻味的事。
Original English >> Well, there was a brewer that had come from Germany, and he was brewing beer there. And of course, Fort York soldiers would come and and acquire beer from him. And one of the beliefs is that that potentially he was murdered when there wasn't enough beer for them. And, you know, a scuffle happened and his body parts were allegedly strewn about various parts of that area. And of course, a body was found, but it wasn't identified as his. So that leads you to wonder, well, whose body was that? So it's just mystery after mystery. So that's kind of an intriguing thing right here in our backyard in Toronto.
>> 每当谈到五大湖，我们在《The Rundown》这里往往喜欢较较劲。我们喜欢作比较。我想知道哪座湖被认为闹鬼最严重，因为整本书贯穿着这些，也是人们谈论的说法：当我们谈论伊利湖时，有时我们会认为它是“死亡之湖”；苏必利尔湖是“从不归还死者的湖”；休伦湖有“沉船小巷”。那里有无数的故事。有没有哪座大湖被认为闹鬼最严重？
Original English >> Whenever it comes to Great Lakes, we tend to get competitive here on The Rundown. We like to compare. And I want to know which lake is the most haunted because throughout the book, and these are phrases that people talk about when we talk about Lake Erie, sometimes, you know, we've considered it the dead lake. We've got Lake Superior, the lake that never gives up her dead. You've got Lake Huron, Shipwreck Alley. There's tons of stories there. Is there a great lake that is considered the most haunted?
>> 噢，这很难回答。我不得不说是休伦湖。关于休伦湖我最喜欢的一点是，它是同时位于加拿大和美国两侧的湖泊之一。所以它连接着两边，但它也有自己独特的蓄水水域。它有乔治亚湾，有马尼图林岛地区，然后还有湖的南部。我认为那可能是最引人注目的水域之一。我知道当我在写那部分，遇到了灯塔以及灯塔的鬼故事时，我的出版商建议说，与其如此深入地描述灯塔的建筑结构，不如把它们都抽出来做一个边栏，放到休伦湖部分？所以那里似乎就是最闹鬼的湖，但也可能是拥有最多至今仍在为我们守望的灯塔看守人的地方。
Original English >> Oh, that's a tough one. I would have to say Huron. And one of the things I love about Lake Huron is it's one of the lakes that, you know, is on both the Canadian and American side. So it touches both, but it also has its own unique reservoirs. It's got Georgian Bay, it's got the Manitoulin Island area, and then it's got the southern part of the lake. And I think that may be one of the ones that draws the most attention. I know when I was writing that and I and I ran into the lighthouses and the ghost stories of lighthouses, my publisher suggested, you know what? Instead of describing the architecture of lighthouses in such depth, why don't we pull them all out and do a sidebar and we'll stick it with Lake Huron? So that seems to be the place, the place where it's the most haunted lake, but potentially it has the most lighthouse keepers that are still keeping watch and looking out for us today.
>> 马克。我们得聊到这里了。但我非常感谢你。我想我们都安然无恙。我没有害怕。我想巴纳比看起来也很不错。非常感谢你分享这些见解，祝贺你的新书。马克·莱斯利是《五大湖鬼故事》的作者。
Original English >> Mark. We're going to have to leave it there. But I want to thank you so much. I think we're all intact. I'm not scared. I think Barnaby, he's looking good. I appreciate you sharing some of these insights and congratulations on the book. Mark Leslie is the author of Ghost Stories of the Great Lakes.
>> 非常感谢。
Original English >> Thanks so much.
### 临终导乐与哀伤陪伴 >> 这些五大湖的故事或许关乎鬼魂和超自然谜团，但它们所涉及的主题却无比现实。死亡、悲伤、未解的疑问，所有这些我们许多人都难以应对和谈论的事情。这就是临终导乐介入的地方……
Original English >> So those Great Lakes stories may be about ghosts and supernatural mysteries, but the themes they deal with are all too real. Death, grief, unanswered questions, all the things many of us struggle to deal with and talk about. That's where death doulas come.
>> 介入。
Original English >> In.
>> 小说家、剧作家兼临终导乐凯瑟琳·埃尔南德斯（Catherine Hernandez）现在加入了我们。非常感谢你做客《The Rundown》。你最近怎么样？
Original English >> A novelist, playwright, and also death doula Catherine Hernandez joins us now. Thank you so much for joining us on The Rundown. How are you doing?
>> 是的，非常好。非常感谢邀请我。
Original English >> Yeah, really. Well, thanks so much for having me.
>> 凯瑟琳，对我们的观众来说，临终导乐究竟是什么？
Original English >> Now, Catherine, for our viewers, what exactly is a death doula?
>> 嗯，我是一名哀伤与临终导乐，我的工作就是在人们悲痛时陪伴他们。在这个全球面临巨大丧失的时期，我们很多人失去了各自文化中教我们如何哀悼的传统。因此，作为一名临终导乐和哀伤导乐，我的职责就是在他们的旅程中陪伴他们，告诉他们这一切都没关系，无论他们的过程是怎样的，他们身体里发生的一切都是完全自然的。我基本上就是在陪伴他们，而不需要将他们带到某个特定的境地去转化他们的悲伤、去改变他们的悲伤、去表现得好像悲伤是他们需要摆脱的东西一样。相反，它完全是自然而然的事情。我是在那里见证。
Original English >> Well, I'm a grief and death doula, and what I do is that I accompany people in their grief. By, you know, during this time of great loss. Worldwide, where a lot of us have lost the traditions that many of us have had in our cultures that taught us how to grieve. And so my job as a death doula and a grief doula is to accompany them in their journey, tell them that it's all right, that what, like what their process is. Everything that is happening in their body is completely natural. And I, I, I, I basically accompany them without having to move them to a particular place to transform their grief, to move their grief, to make it seem like as if their grief is something that they need to get rid of. Instead. It's just something that is completely natural. And I'm there to witness.
>> 帮我们了解一下，就临终导乐而言，你是在某人人生旅程的某个特定节点介入吗？是提前几个月、几年？还是在他们的临终病榻前与他们相遇？
Original English >> Help us understand, you know, in terms of the for a death doula, are you coming in at a certain point in someone's journey? Is it several months, years out? Is it, you know, sort of at their on their death bed that you're meeting them?
>> 成为哀伤与临终导乐有很多种方式。有些临终导乐从事临终安宁疗护工作，陪伴在处于临终阶段、活跃濒死阶段的人身边。他们在家庭为这个人的离世做规划时提供帮助。有时他们恰好在死后立刻赶到，再次协助家属准备诸如文书工作、遗产处理等事务。做临终导乐有很多方式。有些人的主要重点是作为音乐家，在这个人即将离世或刚刚离世时唱歌送行，并主持葬礼仪式。对我而言，作为哀伤与临终导乐，我实践的核心是支持那些承受大死亡与小死亡之痛的人。大写的“死亡”和小写的“死亡”。比如实际的死亡，像有人逝世，支持他们的亲人在没有这个人的生活中摸索前行，试图理解这一切，试图去感受这巨大的悲痛，并真正尊重他们身体在那个时候的状态；以及小死亡，比如关系的破裂、身份的丧失、失业，还有像气候变化之类的事情。对我来说，我所处理的就是帮助人们应对这些。此外，最重要的是处理随悲伤而来的愤怒与内疚。
Original English >> Well, you know, there's many ways to be a grief and death doula. There are some death doulas who are doing hospice work where they are by the sides of people who are, are in their dying time, their active dying time. They are helping families as they are making plans for this person's departure. Sometimes they are there just immediately after the death again to help the family prepare things such as paperwork, the estate. There's many ways to be a death to some. There are some people who. Their main focus is to be a musician and to sing this person off as. As they're about to like, you know, as you know, they've just passed and to do funeral rites for me, my role as a grief and death doula, the crux of my practice is, is supporting people who are grieving both big deaths and little deaths. So big D death and little death. So things such as like an actual death, like someone passing and supporting their loved ones as they're navigating this new world without this person in their lives trying to make sense of it all, trying to, to feel this enormous grief and to, to really honour where their body is at at that time, as well as little deaths such as losses of relationships, losses of identities, jobs, and just, you know, like climate change, things like that. So those are the, for, for me, that's, that's what I'm dealing with is, is helping people deal with that. And as well, most importantly, is also dealing with sort of the rage and the guilt that come with grief.
>> 临终导乐在加拿大并不是一个受监管的行业。在从事这项工作之前，你接受了什么培训？
Original English >> Death doulas aren't a regulated profession in Canada. What training did you undergo before doing this work?
>> 我其实很高兴你问这个问题，因为当我开始做这项工作时，我是个编剧，是个作家。作为一名艺术家，我工作的一部分就是去感受，去体验人性。而在这种资本主义社会中进行艺术创作，有一种非常剥夺人性的东西。在那些 Zoom 会议中，讨论项目的市场前景、推销电视剧等等。而我们却避而不谈核心问题——比如，你可能正在和制片人开电视推介会，而就在前一天晚上发生了一场大规模山体滑坡导致数千人死亡。我坐在那些 Zoom 会议里，心想：我们没有把事情挑明，那就是我们许多人其实正深陷悲痛。我们在悲伤，面临着巨大的丧失、经济崩溃、环境破坏、法西斯主义。当我们站在这个变革的悬崖边时，我们可以做出决定，我们可以继续无视它，任由悲伤肆虐溃烂并转向歧途，比如演变成慢性疾病、精神疾病或成瘾，对吧？或者我们可以选择面对它。我选择了面对它。所以我开始寻找途径，虽然我想成为一名哀伤与临终导乐已经有一段时间了，但我不知道自己是否有这个能力。我查阅了许多不同的课程。真正打动我的是渥太华社区临终关怀（Community Death Care Ottawa）的凯利·巴特勒（Kelly Butler）。我喜欢她的一点在于她说：在我们的课程中，我不会在期末项目中要求你“请找一个快要死的人，学习如何支持那个快死的人”。我们来这里不是为了做一门生意。我培训你是为了让你尽可能具有人性，因为悲伤是一项非常基本的人权。它是一种健康的人性形态。
Original English >> Well, I was actually that was the thing I was. I'm so happy that you're asking that question because when I, when I started doing this work, it was, you know, I'm, I'm a screenwriter, I'm an author. And being an artist, that part of my work is to feel and to be human. There was something really dehumanising about creating art in this capitalist society. And, you know, being in these Zoom calls, talking about marketability of projects and pitching television shows or whatever. And we're not saying the thing, which is that, you know, you might do you might be in the middle of doing like a TV pitching meeting with producers. And just the night before, there was this massive landslide that killed thousands of people. For example. And, you know, I'd be sitting there in these Zoom calls going, we're not saying the thing, which is that many of us are just grieving. We're grieving, there's vast loss, there's economic collapse, environmental destruction, fascism. And when we're standing at this precipice of change, we can make a decision and we can continue on and ignore it, let it rage and let the grief fester and go sideways, you know, like in chronic illness or mental illness or addictions, right? Or we can choose to face it. And I chose to face it. So I ended up looking up ways like, you know, like how I've been wanting to be a grief and death doula for a while, but I didn't know if I had it in me. And I reached out like I was looking at like numerous different courses. And the one that really spoke to me was with Kelly Butler of Community Death Care Ottawa. And what I loved about her was that she said, you know, I am not going to be telling you in our course, you know, like for the final project, please find a dying person and, and learn how to support that dying person. We're not here to it's not about a business. I'm I'm training you to be as human as possible because grief is a very human right. It is. It is a healthy human form.
### 文化仪式、自我关怀与艺术见证 >> 凯瑟琳，我想打断一下，因为你谈到了 Zoom 会议，谈到了那些我们没有触及的对话。现代生活可能会让人很难慢下来去处理丧失。作为一个社会，我们知道自己花在哀伤上的时间不够多，而且我们知道悲伤是一个漫长的过程，不一定有结束的日期。但你认为这是更多人求助于像你这样的临终导乐和哀伤导乐的原因之一吗？因为我们需要慢下来。
Original English >> Well, Catherine. I wanted to jump in there because you talk about, you know, that Zoom call and, you know, these conversations that were not having, you know, modern life can make it very difficult to slow down and process loss. We know as a society, we don't spend enough time grieving, and we know grief is, is a long process and doesn't necessarily have an end date there. But do you think that's one of the reasons more people are tapping people like you as a as a death doula and a grief doula, because we need to slow down.
>> 完全是这样。正如我的导师凯利·巴特勒所说，我们作为导乐的工作就是去接纳悲伤那难以消化的本质。我们为其注入文化，比如仪式，将其转化为滋养。世界各地的社会早就懂得如何做到这一点。古代社会，从爱尔兰的挽歌哭丧（Irish keening）到菲律宾人的九日敬礼（novenas）。我们凭本能就知道面对悲伤不仅重要，而且是健康的，就像排便、排尿、打喷嚏、咳嗽一样。所有这些都非常重要。而由于资本主义的期望，我们被期望“保持冷静，继续前进”。机器在不停运转。你需要产出更多、更多、更多。因此我们被期望平稳前行，抬起头来。所以作为一名导乐，我的职责就是引导人们记起他们的人性。你需要暂停。你需要与你的感受共处。我们不会去强求。我们只是去接纳，去见证我们的悲伤。这就是我们所做的。
Original English >> That's absolutely it. You know, our work as, as doulas is as, as my, my mentor Kelly Butler had said, is that, you know, we're taking the indigestible nature of grief. We are adding culture to it, such as rituals and transforming it into nourishment and societies all over the world already knew how to do this. Like ancient societies, like from like, you know, Irish keening to Filipinos and their novenas. And then we so we instinctively, before we instinctively knew that facing grief was not only important, but it was healthy, just like, you know, pooping, peeing, sneezing, coughing. All of this is really important. And because of the expectations of capitalism, we, you know, we're expected to keep calm and carry on. The machine keeps on going. You need to churn out more and more and more. And so we're expected to sort of like these, the keel move on. Keep our chin up. And so my job as a doula is to guide folks and remembering their humanity. You need to pause. You need to sit with your feelings. We're not going to force. We're just going to allow and we're going to witness our grief. And that's what we do.
>> 凯瑟琳，你提到了九日敬礼。帮我们理解一下，不同文化围绕死亡和悲伤有不同的传统和期待。你自己是菲律宾裔。你能帮我们理解一下不同社群处理悲伤的某种不同方式吗？
Original English >> Now, Catherine, you mentioned a novena. Help us understand, you know, different cultures have different traditions and expectations around death and grief. You're a Filipino yourself. Can you help us understand what's one way that people process grief that may be different from different communities?
>> 我马上想到的一件事，每当我想起它都会让我非常感动，我记得是在我结婚后不久，我丈夫是纳瓦霍人（Navajo）。他们在纳瓦霍国拥有保留地，保留地在菲尼克斯以北大约四个小时车程的地方。我记得就在我们婚礼后不久，我丈夫的一位阿姨陷入了昏迷，因为她摔倒了。这是我第一次看到整个社群聚集在一起向这位家族女长辈道别，医院也理解。他们准备了咖啡，准备了糕点，大家都聚集在一起。我说的是在她临终时大概有 50 个人围在她的病床边。这算不上是一种规定，而是一种默契，大家都来到这里见证她最后的时刻。想到许多年前也有人在这里见证她通过青春期仪式走向成年，而现在又在这个特定的物质层面上见证她生命的终结，真的很感人。我觉得那种传统已经失落了，现在人们往往认为“别看，别看着临死的人。别谈论临死。别哭，什么都别做”。我再次强调，去哀伤、去道别、去迎接没有这个人的新生活起点，是一种非常健康的做法，它提醒我们所拥有的这一世生命的珍贵。
Original English >> Well, one thing that comes to mind right away is that it actually makes me quite touched when I think about it is I remember when there was my it was shortly after I got married, actually in where my husband, my husband is Navajo. They have a reservation in like it's part of Navajo Nation, Navajo Nation, but the rez is about four hours north of Phoenix. And I remember that when one of my husband's aunts. Just then she went into a coma. Just shortly after our wedding, because she had fallen. And this was the first time that I had ever seen the community gather together to basically say goodbye to this matriarch and the hospital understood. They had coffee ready, they had pastries ready, and everyone was gathered. And I'm talking about probably about 50 people around this woman's bedside as she was passing. And, and it was, I'm not gonna say an expectation, an expectation, but it was just an understanding that everyone was going to be there to witness her final moments and to think that there were also people there to witness her moments of coming into womanhood with their puberty ceremonies that many years ago she did that. And then to now be witnessed in her the end of her life on this particular physical plane was quite was quite moving. And, and I, I feel that that like that those kinds of traditions are lost is that, you know, to, to not look, don't look, you know, don't look at someone dying. Don't, don't, don't talk about the dying. Don't like, you know, don't, don't cry, don't do anything. And again, you know, I'm mentioning that this is a very healthy practice to grieve and also to say goodbye, to say hello to a new beginning, which is a life of now without this person, it is very much it's it. It reminds us of the preciousness of this one life that we are given.
>> 我们知道，对于正在经历深刻悲伤或生活中遭遇死亡的人来说，这是一个非常特殊、非常脆弱的时期。我很好奇，对于正在收听这段采访、可能有兴趣寻找临终导乐来帮助他们度过这个过程的人来说，该如何找到一个能在这个过程中提供帮助的声誉良好的人呢？
Original English >> We know that people who are actively grieving or who have experienced death in their life. This is a very particular, very vulnerable time for them. And I am curious for someone who's listening to this interview, who might be interested in seeking a death doula to help them through that process. How do you find someone who's reputable? That is going to help you through this process?
>> 这是一个极好的问题。我会提醒你，成为临终导乐有很多不同的方式。对我而言，我运用很多游戏艺术，比如通过艺术创作仪式来帮助人们代谢他们的悲痛。但并非每个人都这样做。有些人会做诸如临终断舍离（death cleaning）之类的事情，例如，假设有人知道自己身患绝症，他们想清理自己的房子，以确保留下来的人不必去处理所有这些物品，同时他们也想拥有自主权去决定对什么说再见。这是导乐提供帮助的另一种方式，即所谓的“瑞典式临终断舍离”，他们仔细查看每件物品，与之道别并将其放手，或者将所有东西分配好，让留下的每个人都能分得特别的纪念。如果这能引起你的共鸣，那么就从询问开始。对我来说，情况可能是这样：“其实我经历过性伤害，我想去哀悼那段经历。但我了解到你的工作也与愤怒有关，我觉得除非我排解了愤怒，否则我无法进入哀伤。我听说你做愤怒排解工作。”太好了，那这个人就能与你产生共鸣，对吧？所以我会说，去深入了解——有各种各样不同的哀伤与临终导乐，真正倾听你的身体感受。当你听到他们所从事的工作时，什么能与你产生共鸣？什么能触动你？然后从那里开始。因为这同样不是一种受监管的行业，我认为这是件好事，因为如果受到监管，人们可能会期望我必须完成固定模式的哀伤与临终导乐工作。而那不是我们的工作方式。这不是关于法规，不是关于法律。这是关于保持人性。有时，监管不允许我们对这种实践可能呈现的面貌保留细微的差异。
Original English >> Well, that's such a great question because I'd say I'm going to remind you that there are so many different ways to be a death doula. For me, I use a lot of play art, like art making ritual in order to help people metabolise their grief. That's not everybody's move. There are some people where they're going to be doing things like such as death cleaning, which is that, for example, let's just say someone is they know that they've, they've been they have a terminal illness and they want to clean their house. So that to make sure that the people who are being left behind aren't going to have to deal with all this stuff. And they want to also have agency as to like what they say goodbye to. That's another way that a doula can help with what's called Swedish death cleaning, where they go through every object and they can say goodbye to it and let it go or, or divide everything up so that everyone that's left behind has something special. You know, if that speaks to you, I say, then start asking questions. For me, it might be like, actually, you know, I have I've survived a sexual harm and I want to be able to grieve that. But I understand that your work, Catherine, has something to do with rage as well. And I feel that I cannot go to grief unless I work through the rage. And I heard that you do rage work. Great. That's someone who's speaking to you. Right. And so I would say that really see, like, you know, there's so many different kinds of grief and death doulas, like really use your body here. What is speaking to you? What's lighting you up when you hear about the work that they create and go from there? Because again, this isn't a regulated kind of practice, which I believe is, is a good thing because I think regulations like, like I'm going to be expected to do a certain amount of grief and death duelling. And that's not what we do. It's not about regulations. It's not about laws. This is about being human. And sometimes, like regulation doesn't allow us to have nuance around what this practice might look like.
>> 凯瑟琳，在最后的这一分钟里，我想聊聊艺术，因为你正在创作一本关于悲伤的插画书。艺术在帮助人们处理丧失方面能发挥什么作用？
Original English >> Now, Catherine, in our last minute, I want to talk about art because you're working on a book of illustrations about grief. What can what role can art play in helping people process loss?
>> 是的，我正在创作一本名为《逝去挚爱之书》（The Book of Beloved Dead）的书，这是一部以漫画形式展现人们讣告的插画选集。试想一下，一份讣告通常只是一份清单，但这是一份从留下来的人的视角出发的插画讣告。这是一次美丽的见证。每一个人，从我采访的对象、作为艺术家的我、受众，到离世之人，都处于这样一个过程中：我们一起见证这个有着开端、经过与结局的生命，以及留下的家庭是如何面对这一切的。
Original English >> Yes, I am creating a book called the The Book of Beloved Dead, which is a an illustrated anthology in like in comics form of people's obituaries. So just. So what it is is that imagine an obituary is usually just a list, but this is like an illustrated obituary from the point of view of the people left behind. And it is a beautiful witnessing. Everyone is going to be like between the people who I'm interviewing me as an artist, the audience, and also the person who has departed. There is this process there in which we are witnessing this life that had a beginning, middle, and an end, and how the family who's left behind, how they deal with it all.
>> 凯瑟琳，非常感谢你带来如此愉快且富有深度的对话。非常感谢你，也感谢你所做的工作。
Original English >> Catherine, I want to thank you so much for this lovely conversation. Very thoughtful as well. Thank you so much and for the work that you do as well.
>> 非常感谢邀请我。
Original English >> Thank you so much for having me.
>> 临终导乐会是你在临终关怀中考虑的选择吗？你认为他们能扮演什么样的角色？请告诉我们。发邮件至 TheRundown@TVO.org，或者一如既往在我们的 YouTube 页面下留言。在此之前，我们下周再见。
Original English >> Our death doula is something you would consider for end of life care. What role could you see them playing? Let us know. Send us an email to TheRundown@TVO.org. Or as always, you can drop us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you next week.