--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-09-28' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8kGlis5-HE speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - third-country-deportation - immigration-policy - due-process - human-rights title: 被驱逐到从未听说过的国度：特朗普政府'第三国遣返'风暴 summary: 《纽约时报》深入调查了特朗普政府极具争议的'第三国遣返'政策。年近六旬、童年随古巴难民潮赴美且生活数十年的罗伯托·贝塞拉，在例行报到中突然被拘并秘密遣送至非洲内陆君主专制国家斯威士兰的重戒监狱。由于缺乏正当法律程序，受害者陷入无法见律师、无指控无限期关押的法律真空与绝望境地，案件正面临美国最高法院的紧急审理。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Roberto Becerra companies_orgs: - The New York Times - U.S. Supreme Court - U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 争议性的第三国遣返 **蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 这里是《**纽约时报**》，我是蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯，欢迎收听《The Daily》。为了尽可能多地驱逐无证移民，**特朗普政府**越来越依赖一项极具争议的策略：将移民驱逐到他们完全没有任何关联的国家。这种做法引发了民权组织和移民权利倡导者的强烈愤慨。就在上周，联邦法院裁定这种做法属于违法，因为**侵犯了人们享有的正当法律程序权利**。特朗普政府对该裁决提出了上诉，如今官司已经打到了**最高法院**面前。因此在今天，我的同事**尼古拉斯·凯西**将为我们讲述，被遣送到一个你一无所知的国家究竟是怎样一种现实遭遇。今天是9月28日，星期一。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily. In its effort to deport as many undocumented immigrants as possible, the Trump administration has relied more and more on a highly controversial strategy, deporting people to countries they have no connection to. The practice has drawn outrage from civil rights groups and immigrant advocates. And last week, the federal court ruled that it was illegal because it violated people's rights to due process. The administration has challenged that ruling and now it's in front of the Supreme Court. And so today, my colleague Nicholas Casey explains what it actually looks like to be sent to a country you do not know. It's Monday, September 28th.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 尼克·凯西，欢迎回到《The Daily》。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Nick Casey, welcome back to the Daily.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 谢谢你，蕾切尔。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Thanks, Rachel.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 尼克，就在上周晚些时候，我们得知最高法院基本上准备作出裁决，决定是否阻止特朗普政府将移民遣送到其非原籍国的权力。这被称为**第三国遣返**。这也是你长期深入追踪报道的一项做法。请给我们讲讲这套机制到底是怎么运作的。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: So, Nick, late last week, we got word that the Supreme Court was basically poised to decide whether to block the Trump administration's ability to deport people to countries they are not from. This is known as thirdcountry deportations. It's also a practice that you've been following extensively. So tell us how this works.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 所谓第三国遣返，就是美国把某人驱逐出境时，并不是送回其原籍国，而是直接送到另一个国家。这甚至看起来像是一个随意挑选的国家。通常情况下，被遣返者与他们被送往的地方毫无任何瓜葛。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: So a third country deportation is when the US deports someone not to the country that they're from, but to just another country. It can even seem to be like a random country. Often the person has no connection to the place that they're being sent to.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 这项策略现在已经成为特朗普政府的一大标志性政策。特朗普上台时显然承诺过要大幅增加驱逐出境的人数，而这正是其中的关键一环。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And this is a strategy which has become a hallmark now of the Trump administration. Trump came to office obviously promising to really ramp up deportations and this is very much part of it.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但这项做法实际上远远超出了以往历届政府的任何举措，很大程度上是因为现在人们被送往的许多国家，其人权记录都非常糟糕。美国一直将人送往这些国家的事实，不仅引发了关于美国自身的根本性疑问——比如，我们与这些有着恶劣人权记录的地方究竟是什么关系？我们与这些被驱逐出境的人又是什么关系？我们给予这些人怎样的基本人权？因此就在本周，最高法院基本上要裁决：这种做法到底能不能继续推行？
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: But this goes beyond really anything that's been done by previous administrations largely because many of the countries that people are being sent to now have really spotty human rights records. And the fact that the US has been sending people to these countries just kind of raises fundamental questions about America itself, like what is our relationship to these places that have got bad human rights records? What's our relationship to people that we are deporting? What human rights do we grant these people? And so this week, the Supreme Court's going to decide essentially, can this practice continue?
### 驱逐对象的真实画像 **蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 那么关于被以这种方式驱逐出境的这些人，我们了解些什么？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And what do we know about the people who are being deported this way?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 按照本届政府的说法，这是他们用来打击有犯罪前科人员的一种工具。官方甚至称他们为“堕落的怪物”，声称他们是“恶棍中的恶棍”。政府正是以此为理由推行这项政策的。事实确实如此，在那些曾在美国犯罪并服刑的人群中，当美国要求将其遣返回原籍国时，其母国往往会拒绝接收，这种情况非常普遍。但我深入调查这些驱逐案例后发现，这项政策波及的人群背景各异，绝不仅仅是有犯罪前科的人。确实有一部分犯罪分子是这样被驱逐的；但还有另一类相当庞大的人群也以这种方式被驱逐——他们实际上获得了移民法官签发的禁止遣返回原籍国的保护令，因为如果他们被送回母国，将面临通常极为真实的酷刑威胁，而这正是特朗普政府过去在驱逐这些人时遇到障碍的原因。在过去的几个月里，我一直在与其中一位深陷这场风暴的当事人交谈，他的名字叫**罗伯托·贝塞拉**。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah. I mean, according to the administration, this is a tool that it's been using to go after people with criminal records. They've even called them depraved monsters. They've said that they are the worst of the worst. This is why it's doing it. And it is true that in the case of people that have committed crimes in the US and have served jail time, it's pretty common that their countries of origin may say no when America is asking to send them back. But I've been looking into these deportations and I've seen like this practice is sweeping up people with all kinds of different backgrounds, not just people with with criminal backgrounds. It is true there there are a number of people that have committed crimes that are getting deported this way. But there's also another class of people that's also quite large that are being deported this way who are people that immigration judges had banned from being deported to their countries of origin because if they were they faced a credible threat usually of torture and these are the reasons why the Trump administration has had trouble deporting these people. And for the last few months, I've been talking to one man in particular who's been swept up in this, and his name is Roberto Moscera.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 那么跟我们讲讲罗伯托吧。他究竟是个什么样的人？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: So, tell us about Roberto. Who is he?
### 迈阿密岁月与人生转折 **尼古拉斯·凯西**: 嘿，罗伯托。你最近怎么样？
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Hey, Roberto. How are you doing?
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我还好，兄弟。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I'm doing okay, man.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 好的，那就好。罗伯托·贝塞拉今年59岁，他大半辈子都在美国度过。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Okay, good. Well, Roberto Bascera is 59 and he's been in the US almost all of his life.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我出生在**古巴**，但我是在美国长大的。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I was born in Cuba, but I was raised in America.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他是1980年通过**马列尔难民船运事件**从古巴来到美国的。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He came in 1980 from Cuba in a boat lift.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我是和我母亲、姐姐一起到这里的。我们是为了逃离古巴的共产党政权，你懂的。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I came here with my mother and my sister. We run away from the communist, you know, in Cuba.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托来的时候只有12岁。所以，美国是他唯一真正认同为家园的国家。他还能记起一点关于古巴的零星记忆，但其实记得并不多。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And Roberto was only 12 when he came. So, this is the only country he's really known as home. He remembers a little bit about Cuba, but he doesn't remember that much.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他们一家后来定居在迈阿密。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And they settled into Miami.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我没有父亲，我母亲尽了她最大的努力，但对我们来说生活依然非常艰难，你懂的。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I didn't have no father and my mother, she tried the best, but uh it was very difficult to us, you know.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 搬家后没多久，罗伯托就开始惹上麻烦了。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And it wasn't long after they moved that Roberto began to get into trouble.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我真希望我当年能改变这一切，让我的生活过得更好一些。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I wish I could have changed things, you know, and do better with my life, you know.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他成了一个叛逆的青少年，并且加入了一个街头帮派。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He became a rebellious teenager and he joined a gang.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我当时只是想在街头上获得我所渴望的自由，和其他孩子一起在外面瞎混、打架。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: But I was just like get the freedom that I needed on the streets, you know, with other kids like hanging around and fighting.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 当时发生了许多起盗窃汽车、枪击事件，在街头袭击对立帮派成员，最终他因为卷入一起发生的枪击案而接受审判。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: There were a lot of car thefts, shootings, you know, attacking rival gang members in the street and eventually he ended up going to trial for a shooting that took place.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 当时有人中枪了，我的许多朋友都被打死了。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Somebody got shot. A lot of my friends got killed.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托表示自己其实根本没有参与开枪。他承认了多年来自己犯下的各种罪行，但他坚称这起枪击案确实不是他干的。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Roberto says he actually wasn't part of the shooting. He admitted to all kinds of crimes which he committed over the years, but he said this was one that he actually hadn't done.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 是的，我当时什么都没做。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Yes. Would I do anything?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 尽管他声称自己没有犯罪，但他最终还是接受了认罪协议。他说当时他的辩护律师告诉他，如果你不接受这份协议，你会被关进监狱很多年。于是，他在监狱里服刑了9年。而在那9年服刑期满获释之后——我们现在说的是1990年代——
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And he took a plea deal even though he said he hadn't committed the crime. He said that his lawyer had said if you don't take this deal, you're going to be sent to jail for for many more years. So he served 9 years in jail. And after being released after those 9 years, we're talking about the 1990s now,
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 通常在那个时间点，人就会被驱逐出境了。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: usually you would get deported at that point.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 嗯。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Mhm.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但在罗伯托的案例中，事情并没有那样发展。罗伯托来自古巴，而古巴当时并不配合接收从美国驱逐出境的人员。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: But in Roberto's case, that's not what happened. Roberto was from Cuba, and Cuba wasn't cooperating with deportations of people from America at that time.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 没错。罗伯托属于这样一类人：美国政府在某个时期可能确实想把他们驱逐出境，但在实际上却根本做不到。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Right. Roberto is one of these people who the United States government may have wanted to deport at one point, but effectively could not.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 是的。美国政府当时陷入了两难境地。一方面，他们不能直接把罗伯托送回老家；但另一方面，他们也不能把他无限期关在监狱里，因为你要把一个人一直关着，就必须有正式的指控，而他们并没有能把罗伯托继续关在牢里的罪名指控。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah. I mean, the US government was kind of in a bind here. On one end, they couldn't just send Roberto home, but they also couldn't keep him in jail indefinitely because to do that to someone, you you've got to charge them with something. And and they didn't have charges to keep Roberto like in jail.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 嗯。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Mhm.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 因此多年来，无论是共和党还是民主党政府，都认定唯一的选择就是把人释放出来，让他们继续留下来。罗伯托当时遇到的就是这种情况。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: So, for years, administrations, Republican and Democrat, both determined the only option was to let people out, to let them stay. And that's what happened with Roberto.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 那么他被允许留下的具体条件是什么？这套机制实际是怎么运转的？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: So, what were the terms under which he was allowed to stay? Like, how did that actually work?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 其核心逻辑是，只要罗伯托努力不惹事生非，并且按时向移民局报到（通常是每年一次），他就能拿到工作许可、考取驾照，基本上在美国过上正常的生活。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: The idea was that if Roberto tried to stay out of trouble, and made check-ins with immigration authorities, usually every year, he'd be able to get a work permit, get a driver's license, basically have a normal life in the United States.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 兄弟，我的生活彻底改变了。我洗心革面，努力把生活过好，你懂的。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Man, my life has changed, man. I changed my way, man. I tried to do better, you know.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 和很多处于类似处境的人一样，他欣然接受了政府给出的这个方案。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And like a lot of people in his situation, he took them up on that offer.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 嗯。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Mhm.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我刚从监狱出来的时候什么技能都不会。但后来有一个开管道工程公司的老板，他说：“兄弟，听着，我愿意给你一个机会。要不要抓住机会全看你自己。到这里来把你能学的一切都学会，我会帮你的。”他真的帮了我，说到做到。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I didn't know how to do anything when I got out of prison. But then this man, okay, who run this plumbing company, he said, "Man, listen. I'mma give you a break. It's on you if you want to take it. Learn everything you came in here and I will help you out." And he did. He did.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 那是在2000年代初。他开始当管道工。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: This was the early 2000s. He started working as a plumber.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我拼命干活，学会了做水管维修与管道安装，后来晋升成了工头。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I work hard. I learned how to do plumbing. I become a former.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他从临时工起步，然后成为学徒，接着又升为了工长。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He started his temp. Then he became an apprentice. And then he became a foreman.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 而且他组建了自己的家庭。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And he started a family.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 伙计，为了我的女儿们，我付出了难以想象的努力。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Man, I worked so hard for my daughters, man.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他在这里陆续养育了四个女儿，她们全部都是美国公民。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He ended up having four daughters here, all American citizens.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我尽我所能去做一个最称职的父亲，倾其所有。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I was trying to be the best father the best way I could, you know.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 这么说来他确实在这里扎根生活了。这种安稳的状态持续了多久？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: So he really established a life here. How long did things continue like that?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 持续了数十年之久。在他自己的内心里，他就是个彻头彻尾的美国人。就算他手里没有一张纸证明自己是美国人，但他从12岁起就生活在这里了。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: It was for decades. He was in his head an American. Even if he didn't have papers saying he was an American, he'd been here since he was 12.
### 毫无预警的突袭逮捕 **尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但所有这一切，在去年六月彻底改变了。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: But all of that changed last June.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 去年六月到底发生了什么？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And what happened last June?
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 那天早上我去上班前起床。我喝了我最喜欢的古巴咖啡——我现在真的无比想念那个味道。我去了加油站，买了吃的，加了油，然后像往年一样去了**移民和海关执法局**（**ICE**）的拘留中心去报到。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: That morning I got up before I go to work. I have human coffee, which I'm missing a lot. I go to the gas station, pull food, gas, and um I went to the ice detention center like every year.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托像往常一样前去进行例行移民报到。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Roberto went in for his regular check-in with ICE.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 他们收走了材料，然后喊了我的名字，把我带进了里面。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: They took the paper and then they called me and they took me inside.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但这一次，情况显然彻底变了。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: But this time it clearly was different.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我看到一群移民局官员聚在一起低头交谈，他们还不住地朝我们这边打量。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: And I see this group of immigration officers talking to each other. They were looking to us.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 在场的一位执法官员直接对他说了话。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: The agent who was there told him,
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 他说：“你的大限到了。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: "Your time is up." He says,
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 官员说：“你在美国的日子结束了。”事情就是这样发生的。他被关押了几个星期，然后就被告知自己即将被驱逐出境。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: "Your time in the US is over." And that was it. He was detained for a number of weeks and then he's told he's going to be deported.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 那么在这个时候，他知道自己会被驱逐到哪里吗？执法部门到底告诉了他什么？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And does he know at this point where he's getting deported to? What are they telling him?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 完全不知道，没有任何人向他透露他会被送去哪里的哪怕一个字。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: No, no one would would tell him anything about where he was going.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他当时以为自己是要被送回古巴。他完全搞不懂这到底要怎么操作。随后，他们把他和其他四个人一起押送上了一架飞机。当飞机起飞几个小时之后，大家都很清楚自己绝不是飞往古巴，因为飞去古巴根本用不了这么长时间。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He thought he was going back to Cuba. He he didn't know how that exactly was going to work. And they took him and four other people onto a plane. And then when the flight took off, after a few hours it was clear they weren't going to Cuba because it doesn't take that long to get there.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 确实如此。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Sure.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 就在这个时候，我的大脑彻底陷入了一片空白，随后又开始疯狂胡思乱想。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: This is where my mind got stopped running everywhere.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 你根本不知道这架飞机到底要把你带到什么地方。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: You don't know where this plane is going taking you.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 完全不知道。我说：“他们到底在搞什么鬼？”你知道吗，就像是“我们到底要去哪里？”然后我们就一直在空中飞啊飞，飞了好几个小时又好几个小时。你根本看不到窗外。每当飞机降落加油的时候，他们就会把遮光板拉下来，不让我们看到自己身在何处。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: No. I said, "What the hell they doing?" You know, like, you know, where are we going? You know, and we just start flying around like hours and hours. You couldn't see outside. Every time we're going to lay the plane down to fill up with gas, okay, they close the window. They don't want us to see where we at.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 经过了漫长的飞行之后，
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And many hours later,
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 大概飞了七个小时，其中一名押解官员走出来对我们说：“好了，你们现在在非洲了。”我当时就喊：“我他妈跑非洲来干什么，兄弟？我根本不想去非洲！”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: seven hours, one of the officers, he came out and he goes, "Well, you in Africa." I said, "What the hell am I doing in Africa, bro? I don't want to go to Africa."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他们降落在了非洲。当他从飞机上走下来的时候，他说飞机周围停满了当地军方的车辆。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: They landed in Africa. So he was now getting off of this plane and at that point the plane was circled he said by a military vehicles local military vehicles.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 到处都是荷枪实弹的枪支，他们像军队一样把整架飞机团团包围。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Guns everywhere. They surround the whole like a military.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 这几个人被押下了飞机，装上了一辆看起来像军用卡车的车里，据他描述，车厢上还加装了铁笼子。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: These men got out of the plane and were loaded into what looked like a military truck that had what he described as sort of a cage fitted onto it.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 随后我看见了一面巨大的高墙，我对身边的人说：“兄弟，我看这地方像个监狱啊。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: And then I see this big wall and I told this guy, "Man, I think that look like a prison, bro."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 随后那辆卡车径直开进了一座最高安全级别的重戒监狱。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And then that truck drove into a maximum security prison.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 铁门轰然打开，我们就这样被押了进去。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: And that's when this iron door opened and we went inside.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 直到他终于打听到自己究竟身在何方——
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And when he he finally found out where he was,
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 斯威士兰。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Esatini,
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他被告知自己来到了一个叫**斯威士兰**（**Eswatini**）的国家，一个他此前闻所未闻的国家。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: he was told he was in a country called Esatini, a country he had never heard of before.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 这简直就是一场噩梦，你懂吗？
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: This is a bad dream, you know.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 我们稍后马上回来。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: We'll be right back.
### 异国铁窗：斯威士兰 **蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 尼克，我想和你聊聊罗伯托到了这座监狱之后的具体经历。但首先，对于那些可能像他一样对这个地方完全陌生的人，请给我们介绍一下斯威士兰这个国家。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Nick, I want to talk about what happened to Roberto once he arrived at this prison. But first, just for people who might be as unfamiliar as he was, tell us a little bit about Esatini.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 好的，斯威士兰是位于南非与莫桑比克之间的一个内陆小国。它以前叫斯威士兰王国（Swaziland），直到六七年前，该国国王——一位掌握绝对权力的专制君主——下令更改了国名。在那里没有言论自由，政党活动不仅不被允许，实际上是遭到法律明确取缔的。如果你考虑从美国把人送往哪里，至少就人权状况而言，这里几乎就是最恶劣反面的典型。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah, Eswatini is a small country landlocked in South Africa in Mosambique. used to be called Swasilland until its king, who's an absolute ruler, an absolute monarch, changed the name six or seven years ago. There's no freedom of speech. There are no political parties that are allowed. In fact, they're banned. And this is about kind of the opposite of what you would imagine a place that you might send someone to from the United States, at least when it comes to human rights.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 回到罗伯托的故事，他到了这座监狱之后究竟发生了什么？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And just to get back to Roberto's story, what happened when he got to this prison?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他们对待他的方式，和其他任何一名重刑犯没有任何区别。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Well, I mean, they treated him like you would any other prisoner.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我被押到这里时，就好像我是个杀人重犯，像恶徒中的恶徒一样对待。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I came out in here like like a murderer and like a west of the west.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他们让他脱光衣服搜身，给他换上了囚服。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: They had him stripped down. They put him in a prison uniform
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 他们把我面朝墙壁按着，给了我一个囚犯编号。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: and they put me against the wall and u give me a prison number.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他每天都和一名来自也门的室友一起被关在一个狭小的牢房里。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He spends every day in a small cell with his cellmate from Yemen.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 这座监狱的管理方根本不听我们讲话。兄弟，我问过他们无数次：“嘿伙计，我们能见律师吗？我们什么时候能上法庭？”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: The wall didn't hear who run the prison. Man, I asked him so many time, hey man, we got a lawyer that we're going to see some courtroom
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他根本没有办法联系到任何律师。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: and he wasn't able to talk to a lawyer.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 他们只会说：“不不不，你挺好的，别担心这个。”他们翻来覆去就这么一句应付的话，对吧？
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: No, no, no, no, no, no. You good. No, don't worry about it. This is all they used to say, right?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但后来，一位比较友善的狱警开始时不时把自己的手机借给罗伯托使用一下。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: But eventually, a friendly prison guard started to let Roberto use his phone every once in a while.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我的第一通电话是打给我姐姐的。她说：“听着，找了一位律师。我拿到她的电话号码了，她想跟你通话。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: My first call, I talked to my sister and she said, "Listen, it's a lawyer. I got her number. She want to speak to you."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托随后联系上了美国的一位人权律师。这位律师并不能直接把他救出来，因为美国的法院系统一旦超出其管辖范围，就无权命令斯威士兰的监狱释放犯人。但至少有了一位能告诉他享有哪些应有权利的专业律师。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: and Roberto made a call to a human rights lawyer in the United States. Now this isn't a lawyer that's able to get him out because the US court system once you're out of American jurisdiction. It can't tell an Ewatini prison to release you. But at least it was a lawyer who could tell him what his right should be.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 而且在法律层面，他在斯威士兰也有权聘请当地律师。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And you know legally in Eswatini he has the right to have a local lawyer.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 嗯。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Mhm.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 但他们根本不给我任何答复。他们完全不让我见任何律师，根本不准。这处境简直糟糕透顶，兄弟，你完全能想象。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: But um they don't give me no answers. They don't they don't let me see no lawyer. They don't let me, you know, it's just it's just bad, man. You know,
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 但他根本行使不了这项权利。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: but he wasn't able to do that.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 兄弟，我当时真的陷入了极其极其严重的抑郁，整个人都崩溃了。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Bro, I was so so depressed, man.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托逐渐意识到，自己很可能会被无限期困在这里。他并没有受到任何正式刑事指控，也并不是在服一个有明确刑期期限的刑罚。他就这么被死死扣押在此，看不到任何能够改变现状的希望。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And what Roberto comes to recognize is that he could be stuck here indefinitely. He's being held without charges. He's not serving a sentence with a discrete end date. He's just here and there's no prospect that he can see that this is going to change.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 在这个鬼地方一天一天熬下去太难了。我完全不知道自己这辈子还能不能回去，不知道还能不能再见到我的女儿们、我的亲人、我的家庭和我的人生。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: It's not easy to pass day by day in this place and would I know if I ever go back or if I know if I ever go see my daughters, you know, my people, my family, my life.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 是的。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah.
### 绝食抗争与给女儿的信 **尼古拉斯·凯西**: 后来到了一个关头，他感到极度绝望。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: So there was a point where he was getting so desperate.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我必须进行绝食抗议。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I have to go to the hungry strike.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托下定决心彻底停止进食。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: That Roberto decided that he was going to stop eating
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 就这样。有一天狱官队长来了，我说：“听着伙计，我要开始绝食抗议了。”随后我的体重急剧下降，身体一天比一天虚弱。我每天都向神祈祷。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: and that's it. One day the off the captain came I said listen man I'm going to the hungry strike and then I start losing weight. I start losing la just getting weak every single day you know. I prayed to God you know
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 在那段日子里，他一直在写日记。罗伯托，你手头有之前发给我的那本日记吗？
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: and during that time he was writing. Do you have the diary that you sent me?
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 有的。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Yeah.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 是的，他向我展示了他的日记。日记里很大篇幅都在倾诉他有多么思念在美国的生活，特别是他在被驱逐出境前与家人的点点滴滴。他写了大量关于他十岁的小女儿**费思**（**Faith**）的内容。罗伯托，跟我聊聊费思吧，讲讲你最小的女儿，因为你跟她的关系最亲密。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah. He showed me his diary and a lot of it is about how much he was missing his life in the United States and how much he was specifically, you know, missing his life that he had with his family uh before he got deported. He wrote a lot about his daughter Faith who was 10 years old. Well, tell me about tell me about Faith. Tell me about your youngest daughter because you're really close to her.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 费思，我的天啊，兄弟。那是我的小宝贝，我最小的孩子。作为父亲，我的职责还没有尽完，这让我感到钻心刺骨的痛。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Faith, my god, man. That's that's my little one, you know. That's that's my last one, you know, and I I haven't finished my my job as a father, you know, and that what hurt me more.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托在日记中写道：“每一天，我都在想念我的女儿费思。”
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And Roberto wrote in his diary, "Every day I think about my daughter, Faith,
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: “思念我美丽的小女儿费思，让我从未流过这么多的眼泪。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: I've never cried so much as I do missing my beautiful girl, my Faith.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: “对不起，我的小女孩，这种痛苦简直要把我撕碎。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: So sorry, my little girl, how much it hurts me."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他写道：“看着你快乐无忧，我觉得自己是全世界最幸福的父亲。”
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He wrote, I felt like the happiest father in the world seeing you happy.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 你知道的，我拼了命地辛苦工作。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: You know, I work very hard.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 在另一处，他写道：“这一切全都是为了费思。”
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: At another point, he writes, "All for faith, you know,
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 仿佛他的整场绝食抗争，都是为了能以某种方式重新回到女儿身边。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: as if the whole hunger strike is about getting her back in some way."
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 是的。她就是我的整个世界，伙计。她是我的全部。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Yeah. She was everything to me, you know. She was everything to me, man.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 他就这样咬牙坚持了整整30天。天呐。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: And 30 days passed this way. Oh my god.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 是的，几个星期完全不吃任何东西，我的眼睛——我的视力都开始严重退化模糊了，你知道吗。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: Yeah, it was weeks with no eating and my eyes I start losing my vision, you know.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 后来他和他在美国的律师通了一次电话。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And he had a call with with his attorney who was in the US.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 她对我说：“罗伯托，听着，我需要你坚强起来。我需要你活着，而不是死在里面。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: She told me, "Roto, listen. I need you to get strong. I need you to get, you know, I need you alive, not dead."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 他的律师劝诫他：“听着，你必须停止绝食。用这种方式你根本无法达成目的。我们必须寻找其他途径来抗争。你继续这样下去唯一的后果，就是被活活饿死。”
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: His lawyer told him, you know, look, you've got to stop. Like that you're not going to get what you need this way. we've got to find another way to to try to fight this. The only thing that that's going to happen is that you could starve to death.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 嗯。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Mhm.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 然后我说：“好吧，我停下来。”
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: And then I say, "Okay, I'll stop."
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托于是决定结束绝食。但这并非毫无收获。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And so Roberto decided to call off his hunger strike, but it wasn't all for for nothing.
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 在我停止绝食之后，狱方官员回来把手机给了我。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: After I stopped, he come back and give me the phone.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 在绝食抗议之后，他获准购买了一部手机。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: After the hunger strike, he was allowed to purchase a phone.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 这部手机成了他窥探外部世界的唯一窗口。我也正是通过这部手机，才得以知晓他和其他被困在斯威士兰的人们所面临的真实境遇。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And that phone became his window into the outside world. That's how I was able to learn about this situation that he and others in Esportini were in. It was because of that phone.
### 跨国交易与法律真空 **蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 在你了解了罗伯托的处境之后，关于这一切到底是如何发生的，你调查出了什么？特朗普政府究竟是如何开始采取这种手段的？在特朗普上台之前，美国曾经搞过第三国遣返吗？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: I mean, once you learned about the situation that Roberto was in, what did you understand about how it had all happened? Like, how did the Trump administration come to adopt this practice? And prior to Trump, were third country deportations something the US had ever done?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 搞过，但范围极其有限。过去有一种做法：如果某个人的原籍国拒绝接收，美国可以将他们遣送到被认定为‘安全的第三国’。举例来说，如果是为了逃离危地马拉迫害的人，假如他们在加拿大有社会关系或亲属，可能会被送往加拿大；或者如果他们是途经墨西哥进入美国的，可能会被送回墨西哥。但这种传统方案根本无法大规模推行，因为绝大多数国家都不会平白无故接收成百上千名与该国毫无瓜葛的被遣返人员。因此，如果特朗普政府想要把第三国遣返作为大规模驱逐战略的核心支柱，就必须去寻找那些愿意通过秘密交易达成协议的国家。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah, but in a really limited way. There was a practice where if someone's home country wouldn't take them back, you could deport them to what the US considered a safe third country. So someone who was fleeing say persecution in Guatemala might get sent to Canada if they had ties there or family. Or they might get sent back to Mexico if they had passed through Mexico on their way to the US. But this kind of solution doesn't really scale. Most countries are not going to take back hundreds of deportes that have no connection to their country. And so if the Trump administration was going to make third country deportations work as a main pillar of its mass deportation strategy, it had to find countries willing to make a deal.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 你在去年春天就看到特朗普政府开始走这条路了：当时美国将大约250名主要来自委内瑞拉的男子，直接遣送到了萨尔瓦多一座名为**反恐恐怖主义拘禁中心**（**CECOT**）的最高安全级别重戒监狱。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And you saw the Trump administration began to go down that route last spring when it deported about 250 mostly Venezuelan men to a maximum security prison in El Salvador called SECOT.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 对，我记得这事，我们当时在节目里专门报道过。特朗普政府指控这些人全都是黑帮分子和重案犯，但后来查明其中许多人根本不是。然而，他们依然在那座监狱里被关押了数月之久。那在当时引起了轩然大波。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Right. I remember this. We covered it on the show. The Trump administration accused all of these men of being gang members and criminals and many of them turned out not to be. And yet they were still stuck in this prison for months. It was a huge story.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 没错。当时正是很多美国人第一次听说什么是第三国遣返。这项交易是与萨尔瓦多总统**纳伊布·布克尔**（**Nayib Bukele**）达成的，他是一位与特朗普关系非常亲密的威权领导人，而且他通过这笔交易进账了600万美元。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Yeah. This was when a lot of Americans first learned what third country deportations were. It was with Na Boule who is an autocrat very close to Trump and also with someone who received $6 million for this deal.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 确实如此。随后你看到美国政府继续与大约35个国家达成了类似协议，其中就包括斯威士兰。从官方公开记录我们得知，斯威士兰为了接收来自美国的被遣返人员，拿到了510万美元的资金。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Sure. And you saw the government go on now to cut other deals with about 35 countries including Esswatini which we know from the record got $5.1 million to take deportes from the US.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 我们是否掌握大体有多少个像罗伯托这样的人？到底有多少人被遣送到了第三国，并陷入了这种根本不知道何时、甚至是否能被释放的悬空法律状态？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Do we have any sense of how many Robertos are out there? Like how many people have been deported to third countries and have been caught up in this kind of limbo where it's not clear when or even if they'll be released.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 所幸有一些人权机构一直在追踪记录这些数据。有一个名为“**第三国遣返观察**”（**Third Country Deportation Watch**）的组织，他们估算的总人数大约有2.5万人通过第三国程序被驱逐。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: So fortunately there are people who are tracking this. Uh there's a organization called third country deportation watch and the big number is an estimate of 25,000 people who have been sent through third countries to be deported.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 哇。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Wow.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 这2.5万人并不全都处于罗伯托这样的极端处境。其中绝大多数人在入境后不久就被送回了墨西哥，通常并没有被投入监狱。但在所有案例中存在一个特殊的子集，据我估算大约涉及5000人，他们被送往了世界各地形形色色极不寻常的场所，往往是最高安全级别的监狱，有时是被软禁在酒店里数周甚至数月。这些人被分散遣送到了全球各个角落。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Now the 25,000 figure aren't all people in Roberto's situation and a large number of those people. Most of them were sent to Mexico largely immediately after they came over and usually not to to prisons. But there's a subset of the cases, and I'd estimate this is probably about 5,000 people who were being sent to many different places, often maximum security prisons, sometimes hotels for weeks, sometimes months at a time. These people were sent all over the world.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 嗯。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Mhm.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 我们刚才谈到过去把人送往加拿大的先例；而如今，美国正在把人遣送到处于现行武装冲突、甚至个别处于战争状态的国家。就在最近，《纽约时报》披露，被遣送到赤道几内亚（另一个以严重侵犯人权而臭名昭著的国家）的被扣押人员，在看管他们的警卫控制下遭到了残酷殴打。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And we talked about there being a precedent for sending people to places like Canada. Well, now the US is sending people to countries with active conflicts, mill of wars in some cases. And just recently, the Times reported that detainees who were sent to Equatorial Guinea, which is another country notorious for human rights violations, they were being beaten in a hotel by guards who had custody of them.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 我完全可以想象针对你刚才所描述的情形会引发排山倒海的法律抗议。但回到目前摆在最高法院面前的这起具体案件：大法官们究竟需要对什么核心问题作出裁定？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: I can imagine a lot of legal objections to what you just described, but just to pivot back to the case before the Supreme Court right now. What is the question that the justices will be deciding?
### 最高法院与未卜前途 **尼古拉斯·凯西**: 事实上，裁决聚焦的法律切口相当窄。下级法院此前裁定，这些第三国遣返严重侵犯了当事人的**正当法律程序权利**。下级法院的核心观点在于，这些被驱逐者根本没有获得在法官面前出庭陈述的机会，无法向法官申诉说：“请不要把我遣送到第三国，因为我在那里可能会遭受酷刑。”下级法院的这项裁决立即对联邦政府产生了直接约束力，迫使政府必须立刻叫停所有此类第三国遣返行动。因此，特朗普政府紧急上诉至最高法院，请求批准一项紧急暂缓执行令。实质上，他们希望在全案在上诉法院审理期间，允许政府继续推进此类遣返。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Well, it it's actually a pretty narrow one. Um, so the lower court ruled that these third country deportations are a violation of people's due process rights. Essentially, they said these deportes aren't getting an opportunity to appear before a judge to say, "Hey, don't send me to a third country because, for example, you might get tortured there." That lower court's ruling had an immediate consequence for the federal government, which all of a sudden had to stop these deportations. And so, the Trump administration appealed to the Supreme Court to ask for an emergency stay. Basically, they want to allow these deportations to continue as this case continues moving through the courts.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 明白了。所以这是最高法院的临时性裁决之一，重点并不在于实体审理案件本身的是非曲直，而仅仅在于：在几个月或几年后实质审理案件之前，各方是否需要暂时止步维持现状。但就目前而言，我们能预判最高法院是否会同意批准这项临时暂缓执行令吗？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Okay. So, this is one of those temporary Supreme Court decisions that is less about the merits of the case and more just about like does everybody need to stop what they're doing until we get a chance to actually consider the merits of the case in months or years or whatever. But for now, do we know whether or not the court might agree to this to grant this temporary stay?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 我们其实心里相当有数，因为这个问题此前就曾被提交到最高法院面前过。当时下级法院同样暂停了第三国遣返；特朗普政府随即上诉至最高法院提出同样的请求：“我们能不能不受阻碍继续执行？”而大法官们当时给出的答复是：“可以。”
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: We actually have a fairly good idea just because this question has reached the Supreme Court before. Basically, the lower court, you know, paused third country deportations. And then when that happened, the last time the Trump administration went to the Supreme Court and asked the same question. Can we continue to do this anyway? And the justices said, "Okay."
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 尼克，最高法院之前批准暂缓执行时，解释了他们的法理依据吗？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Did they explain their reasoning, Nick, when they granted this day before?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 并没有真正解释。在这类针对紧急申请的处理中，他们通常不会出具书面的判决意见书。但我们能确定的是，最高法院在过去的涉移民案件中，向来对特朗普政府给予极大的司法尊重与裁量空间。在他们看来，总统在这一领域享有极其宽泛的自由裁量权。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: No, not not really. In these cases, when they're acting on an emergency basis, they they don't issue a written opinion. But what we can say is that the Supreme Court has been very differential to the Trump administration when it comes to immigration in the past. They see the president as having very wide latitude here.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 这么说来，完全有充分的理由推测最高法院这次也会采取同样的立场，允许这些遣返继续推行下去。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Okay. So, it sounds like there's every reason to think that the court would do the same thing this time and let these deportations continue.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 确实如此。顺便说一句，即便最高法院真的决定叫停这些遣返，问题在于：目前尚不清楚这项裁决究竟会对罗伯托产生怎样的影响。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: That's right. And by the way, even if the court does decide to pause these deportations, the thing is it's not quite clear how this would affect Roberto.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 这起诉讼最直接影响的是那些即将被遣返的人。而罗伯托不仅早已被驱逐，此刻人还被关在斯威士兰。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: This case most immediately affects people who are about to be deported. And Roberto, of course, has been deported and he's still in Eswatini,
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 对吧？他已经陷入了这种法律真空格局之中。尼克，你认为他的结局会是怎样？
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: right? He's already stuck in this legal limbo. What do you think is going to happen to him, Nick?
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 我第一次在电话里跟他交谈时，他也问了我完全一样的问题。我当时回答他说，我真的不知道。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: He he asked me the same question the first time that I I talked to him on the phone. And I said I I didn't know.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 在我还是个青少年的时候，正是美国开始把人押送到**关塔那摩湾**（**Guantanamo Bay**）的时期。那同样是一种在反恐战争打响后，急于将人移出美国正规司法体系、安置到世界某个没有基本人权保障的法外角落的做法。被关在斯威士兰的这些人当然不是恐怖分子嫌疑人，但他们的处境与关塔那摩湾高度相似：他们彻底脱离了美国的司法管辖权。罗伯托的处境正是如此。我们根本不知道他的命运会如何。他可能会在那里再被关上几个月，但也可能会被关上好几年。如果这些案件彻底被公众遗忘，情况就会极其类似关塔那摩湾的困局——至今那里依然关押着很多囚犯，他们被关了整整几十年，根本没有任何出狱的希望，因为似乎没有任何一个国家愿意接收他们。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And I mean when I was a teenager, it was when America started sending people to Guantanamo Bay. And it was another situation where after the war on terror had begun, there was a haste to move people out of the American justice system to put them in another corner of the world where there weren't human rights. These people in this case in Esportini aren't terrorist suspects, but they share what's going on with Guantano Bay in the fact that they are out of US jurisdiction. And so so so does Roberto. We don't know what's going to happen to him. He could be there for a few more months, but he could be there for a few more years. And if these cases are completely forgotten about, it could be very much like the situation in Guantanamo where you still have people prisoners who who have been there now for many, many years and don't have any way of getting out because no country seems to be interested in taking them.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 嗯。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Mhm.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 我认为罗伯托内心深处有着一种刻骨铭心的恐惧：他害怕自己就会这样被彻底遗忘在这座冰冷的异国监狱里。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: And I think that there is a deep fear that Roberto has that he is just going to get forgotten in in this prison.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 罗伯托，对于重返美国，你还抱有希望吗？你觉得这真的会发生吗？
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Are you hopeful that you're going to get back to the United States? Do you think that's going to happen?
**罗伯托·贝塞拉**: 我的天啊，尼克，我绝对不想放弃这份希望。我每时每刻都在祈求那一天的到来。我不知道它究竟会不会实现，我真的不知道。但我已经为此抗争了太久太久，你知道的，整整13个月了。但现在，我已经无能为力了。一切都在上帝的手中。
Original English **Roberto Becerra**: My god, I don't want to lose that hope, Nick. I dream for that. Okay. I don't know if it's going to happen. I don't know. But I've been fighting for that for a long time, you know, for 13 months. Okay. But, you know, ain't nothing I can do now. I'm in God's hand.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 尼克·凯西，非常感谢你。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: Nick Casey, thank you so much.
**尼古拉斯·凯西**: 谢谢你，蕾切尔。
Original English **Nicholas Casey**: Thanks, Rachel.
### 今日其他重要要闻 **蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 我们稍后马上回来。以下是今天您还需要了解的其他要闻。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know.
**蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯**: 英国警方于周日逮捕了五名涉嫌策划恐怖主义袭击的男子。此前警方接到报警电话，称有三辆可疑车辆正驶向美军使用的一处空军基地。该基地为费尔福德皇家空军基地（RAF Fairford），主要供美国空军部署其最大型的轰炸机，且自2月份开战以来，美军轰炸机一直从费尔福德基地起飞执行对伊朗的作战任务。目前尚不清楚周日的事件是否与中东冲突直接相关，但调查人员正在深入核实其是否与俄罗斯或伊朗存在任何关联。 本期节目由克莱尔·坦尼斯塞特（Claire Tennisceter）和莱克西·迪奥（Lexi Dio）制作，米歇尔·班乔（Michelle Banjo）协助；安妮·米诺夫（Annie Minoff）和德文·泰勒（Devon Taylor）编辑；配乐由利亚·肖·迪隆（Leah Shaw Dearon）提供；声音工程由艾丽莎·莫克斯利（Alyssa Moxley）负责；我们的主题曲由 Wonderly 创作。 以上就是今天的《The Daily》，我是蕾切尔·亚伯拉罕斯。明天见。
Original English **Rachel Abrams**: The British police arrested five men on Sunday on suspicion of preparing acts of terrorism after receiving a call that three suspicious vehicles were headed toward an air force base used by the US military. The base RAF Fairford is primarily used by the US Air Force to deploy some of its largest bombers and American bombers have launched from Fairford on missions to Iran since the war began in February. It is not yet clear whether Sunday's incident is connected to the conflict in the Middle East, but investigators are looking into whether there's any link to Russia or Iran. Today's episode was produced by Claire Tennisceter and Lexi Dio with help from Michelle Banjo. It was edited by Annie Minoff and Devon Taylor. Contains music by Leah Shaw Dearon and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Wonderly. That's it for the Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.