--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-03-12' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F91l5e375Q speaker: TVO Today tags: - nihilistic-violent-extremism - online-communities - ideology-vs-violence - de-radicalization - polarization title: 虚无主义暴力极端主义：定义、成因及应对策略 summary: 本访谈深入探讨了“虚无主义暴力极端主义”（NVE）这一新兴现象。与传统极端主义不同，NVE缺乏明确的意识形态或目标，其根源在于网络社群和对暴力的迷恋。专家指出，理解其运作模式、区分纯粹的暴力崇拜与意识形态驱动的极端主义是关键挑战。访谈还讨论了社会两极化如何加剧极端主义的污名化，以及当前去激进化、干预和重新融入社会的策略及其局限性，强调了结构性改变和持续资金支持的重要性。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: [] products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 虚无主义暴力极端主义的定义与困惑 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “什么是虚无主义、暴力极端主义，我们又该如何应对？制作人 Eric Bombicino 专访了女王大学副教授 Amarnath Amarasingam，这是他们关于极端主义对话的第二部分。好的，我想谈谈，我认为这是一种新的极端主义形式。我想我们刚才讨论的所有关于理解极端主义的内容，在这里可能都会被推翻。虚无主义、暴力极端主义。那是什么，又为何如此令你感到困惑？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "What is nihilistic, violent extremism and what can we do to combat it? Producer Eric Bombicino gets insight from Amarnath Amarasingam, an associate professor at Queen's University, in part two of their conversation on extremism. >> Okay, so I did want to talk about, I guess it's a new form of extremism. And I think everything we just talked about in terms of understanding extremism might just get punted off the table here. Nihilistic, violent extremism. What is that and why is it, I guess, so confounding for you?"
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我的意思是，问题就在于‘虚无主义’这个词，对吧？从哲学上讲，虚无主义是一种无意义感、无根感、无目的感，而很多极端主义团体恰恰是它的反面，对吧？他们想要建立一个‘白人至上国家’（white ethnostate）或‘哈里发国’（caliphate）之类的。他们在构建某样东西，他们在构建一个‘乌托邦愿景’（utopian vision）。而许多这些人，他们来自……你知道，来自网上的核心社群，他们来自‘真实犯罪社群’（true crime community）。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "I mean, the problem is in the nihilism word, right? Where nihilism, at least philosophically, is a sense of meaninglessness, rootlessness, purposelessness, and a lot of extremist groups are the complete opposite of that, right? They, they want a white ethnostate or they want a caliphate or whatever it is. They're, they're building something. They're building a utopian vision. Whereas a lot of these guys and they come out of, you know, the core communities online, they come out of the true crime community online."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “那是什么样的社群？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "So what are those?"
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “就是那种在线论坛。是的。人们从中获得很多刺激，我甚至不想称之为社区，但他们消费了很多……他们所消费的是‘血腥内容’（gore content）。比如人们被汽车撞倒，狗被杀死，诸如此类的内容，而他们就坐在那里消费这些内容。‘真实犯罪社群’也是一样，就像……你知道，崇拜‘连环杀手’（serial killer worship）之类的事情，对吧？他们还崇拜‘校园枪手’（school shooter worship），比如像哥伦拜恩（Columbine）枪击案的凶手，人们对他们的那种依恋。所以，从这些社群中就出现了这种被称为‘虚无主义暴力极端主义’（nihilistic violent extremism）的新现象，他们会‘欺凌年幼儿童’（bullying young children）让他们在镜头前伤害自己。所有这些事情都在发生。所以人们不知道该如何解释它，因为它听起来像暴力极端主义，但却没有目的。对吧？所以这就是麻烦所在，人们在纠结的是：这仅仅是为了暴力而暴力吗？英国政府称之为‘暴力迷恋’（violence fixation）。在加拿大，我们称之为‘非虚无主义暴力极端主义’（non nihilistic violent extremism）。所以这只是一种奇怪的痴迷、依恋和对暴力的固着。但这不像‘右翼的种族战争’（race war in the far right），他们认为暴力和混乱中会诞生出美好而荣耀的东西。对他们而言，暴力本身就是目的。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "So it's like there are online boards. Yeah. Where people are getting a lot of their excitement from, I don't even want to say community, but a lot, a lot of what, what they're consuming is gore content. So people getting hit by cars and dogs getting killed and that sort of content, and they're sitting there consuming this content. And the true crime community is the same as like, you know, the serial killer worship and that sort of thing, right? They come out of school shooter worship also like people that kind of attachment people have to the Columbine shooters from way back. So out of these communities is this new phenomenon called nihilistic violent extremism, where they are bullying young children into kind of harming themselves on camera. All of that stuff is happening. And so people don't know how to kind of explain it because it sounds like violent extremism, but there is no purpose to it. Right. And so that's where the trouble is, where that's where people are kind of struggling with is, is this just violence for violence sake? The UK government calls it violence fixation. In Canada, we call it non nihilistic violent extremism. So it's just this kind of weird obsession and attachment and fixation to violence. But it's not like the race war in the far right. We're out of that violence and chaos. Something beautiful and glorious arises for them. It's the violence is the purpose."
### “小丑化”的极端主义与目的性缺失 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “这是否像是极端主义的‘小丑化’（Joker-ization）？我的意思是，有些人就是想看到世界燃烧。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "Is this like the Joker-ization of extremism? Like I'm trying, I'm like, yeah, some people just want to see the world burn."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “‘有些人想看到世界燃烧’（Some people want to see the world burn）是极端主义研究者、政策制定者和执法部门不知道如何处理的事情。好吧。因为一方面，我们习惯于找到一份‘宣言’（manifesto）、一面‘旗帜’（flag）或一本书之类的东西，你读《我的奋斗》（Mein Kampf），找到指向‘意识形态’（ideology）和‘信仰体系’（belief systems）的线索，而这些人只是想摧毁一切。这毫无意义。是的，但他们具有难以想象的暴力性，特别是针对年轻人，非常非常小的年轻人。我们见过最小的案例只有九岁、十岁、十一岁。所以，如何界定这一点很困难，我们现在全国的许多‘预防项目’（prevention programs）都在看到这些案例在他们的案件量中有所增加。是的，有些情况只是他们需要社会工作者、咨询师和治疗师来沟通。但那里没有任何……没有任何意识形态的东西。’”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "So some people want to see the world burn is something that extremism researchers and policymakers and law enforcement don't know what to do with. Okay. Right. Because on the one hand, we're used to finding a manifesto or a flag or a book or something, you know, you read Mein Kampf, something to like point us towards ideology and belief systems, whereas we just want to destroy everything. Doesn't make any sense. Yeah, but they're unimaginably violent, especially towards young people, very young people. We've seen cases as young as nine and ten and 11. And so where to place that is difficult in a lot of our prevention programs now across the country are seeing an up tick in these cases as part of their caseload. And yeah, some of it is just they just need social workers and counsellors and therapy and talk things through. But there is no there's no ideological anything there."
### 从过渡期到纯粹破坏：动机的演变 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “这最终会导向某种‘信仰体系’，某种你可以称之为‘意识形态’的东西吗？我们现在处于一个‘过渡期’（transition phase）。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "Could it lead eventually to some sort of belief system, something you'd call an ideology? We're in like a transition phase."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “它可能是一个过渡期。有些人认为，他们所做的，他们所做的是，你可能会在他们的硬盘上找到一段‘ISIS视频’（ISIS video），你可能会找到一段‘新纳粹视频’（neo-Nazi video）。人们会问：‘为什么，两套相互竞争的意识形态怎么会存在于同一个人的电脑里？’原因在于，他们真正关心的只有视频中的‘暴力’（violence），对吧？他们喜欢暴力部分。他们并不真正关心意识形态部分。所以，这可能是一个向其他东西过渡的阶段，但我们不知道它会是什么样子。但与此同时，这是他们留下的‘破坏痕迹’（trail of destruction）。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "It could be a transition phase. A few people have kind of argued that what they do, what they do is they'll you might find an ISIS video on their hard drive. You might find a neo-Nazi video on their hard drive. And people are like, how come, how can two competing ideologies be a part of the same person's computer? The reason for that is because the only thing they care about in those two videos is the violence, right? They like the violence part of it. They don't really care about the ideological part of it. So it could be a transition to something else, but we don't know what that's going to look like. But in the meantime, it's the trail of destruction that they're leaving behind."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “所以人们对世界感到愤怒。是的。他们想发泄。他们想做点什么，但‘一切都没有意义’（nothing means anything）。‘没有希望’（no hope）。那么，我猜剩下的只有‘复仇’（revenge）了。复仇似乎可以成为一种动机。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "So folks are angry at the world. Yeah. They need to get back at it. They need to do something, but nothing means anything. There's no hope. Then I guess all you have is revenge. Does seem like revenge can be its own thing to motivate."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “是的。我甚至不知道这是否是复仇。对他们而言，这仅仅是……他们只是为了‘刺激’（lulls）而做。他们只是为了‘好玩’（kicks）而做，对吧？他们只是因为‘能做到’（they can）而做。而网络环境也允许这种行为。他们只是为了‘博取关注’（clout）而做，对吧？他们只是因为他们是这个怪异、邪恶群体的一员，并且大家都在互相挖苦，看谁能做得更过分，对吧？就像……就像他们在玩《使命召唤》（Call of Duty），只不过是真人版。是的。对吧？然后，年轻人们……联系到你之前关于‘自由主义’（liberalism）的问题，这是否也是‘意义缺失’（meaninglessness）的最终结果？现代社会未能为这些年轻人提供有意义、有目标的东西，导致他们现在以一种非常怪异的方式对这种‘无根感’（rootlessness）做出反应。是的，也许吧。对吧？所以，这可能是……所有这一切的最终结果是：‘我们无事可活’（we have nothing to live for）。这一切都很疯狂。这一切都是混乱，毫无意义……你知道，没有天堂，没有地狱，我们只是……我们只是漂浮在太空中。所以，为什么不尽可能地造成最大的破坏呢？”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "Yeah. I don't even know if this is revenge. Like, for them. For them, it's just. They're just doing it for the lulls. They're just doing it for the kicks, right? They're just doing it because they can. And the online landscape kind of allows for some of this behaviour too. And they're just doing it for, for clout, right? They're just doing it because they're part of this weird, nefarious group and everyone's like digging each other up and seeing who can one up each other, right? It's like a it's like they're all playing Call of Duty except with real people. Yeah. Right. And, and young people tying it back to your liberalism question, like, is this the kind of end point meaninglessness also, right? Is this is this kind of the, the, the failure of modernity to provide these young people with something meaningful and purposeful that they're now reacting very bizarrely to this sense of norm, like rootlessness. Yeah, maybe. Right. And so that might be the end of it. The end result of all of this also is like, we have nothing to live for. This is all crazy anyway. This is all chaos and nothing meaning, you know, there's no heaven and there's no hell and it's all we're just all this and that, right? We're just all floating through space. And so why not cause as utmost, utmost destruction as humanly possible."
### “主角情结”与极端主义的吸引力 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “我不知道这是否与虚无主义暴力极端主义有关，但你确实提到了‘主角’（main character）这个概念，我想深入探讨一下。现在是否有越来越多的愤怒的年轻男性，他们在生活中感到被边缘化，他们想成为‘英雄之旅’（hero's journey）中的‘主角’，而英雄之旅最终会带来‘宣泄’（catharsis）和‘救赎’（salvation）？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "So I don't know if this is related to nihilistic, violent extremism, but you did mention this idea of being a main character, and I wanted to sort of pick up on that. Are there more and more angry young men now that want to be they feel sidelined in their lives. They want to be the main character on a hero's journey. And hero's journey is a thing, and it ends in catharsis and salvation."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我不知道这是否是虚无主义极端主义的一部分，但我会说，许多其他的意识形态群体，如‘极右翼’（far right）、‘圣战主义者’（jihadist），甚至是‘阴谋论’（conspiracy theories），它们尤其擅长将你塑造成一个‘宇宙战士主角’（cosmic warrior main character）。对吧？比如说，阴谋论经常这样做，好像你现在被赋予了任务，因为你的‘眼睛被打开了’（your eyes have been opened），你已经获得了关于‘世事真相’（what's really going on in the world）的真理。而其他人都在沉睡。你现在有责任唤醒所有人，让他们认识到‘真实现实’（true reality），并引导他们走上一条‘解放人类’（liberating humanity）的道路。所以，许多阴谋论的‘黄金时代’（golden age）不是‘哈里发国’或‘白人至上国家’，而是当每个人都‘觉醒’（wakes up）的时候。对吧？每个人都意识到，一直有一个‘阴影精英’（shadowy elite）在控制着一切。他们从未拥有那么多‘自主权’（agency）。一切似乎都被剥夺或被他人控制。而现在我们‘明白了’（hip to it）。对吧？所以，是的，这确实创造了一种‘深远的目的感’（sense of very deep purpose），去帮助人类前进。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "Yeah, I don't know if that is part of nihilistic extremism, but I would say a lot of the other ideological groups, far right jihadist, even conspiracy theories in particular, they're very good at turning you into a cosmic warrior main character. Right. And so, I mean, conspiracy theories do this a lot where it's like you are now tasked because you've been your eyes have been opened and you've been granted the truth about what's really going on in the world. Everyone else is asleep. You now have a responsibility to wake up everybody to the true reality and get them on a path towards like, liberating humanity. And so the golden age for a lot of these conspiracy theories isn't like a caliphate or white ethnostate, but it's when everyone kind of wakes up, right? Everyone realizes, realizes that, that there's always been this shadowy elite controlling everything. They've never had that much agency. Everything's always been taken away from them or controlled for them. And now we're kind of hip to it. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, it does create the sense of very deep purpose to kind of help humanity along."
### 意识形态在极端主义中的作用 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “你提到‘哈里发国’是‘伊斯兰极端分子’（Islamist extremists）的最终目标，‘白人至上国家’是‘右翼极端分子’（right wing extremists）的目标。我记得很久以前，在‘议程’（the agenda）节目中，我们曾访谈过一位‘新纳粹分子’（Neo-Nazi）和一位‘伊斯兰极端分子’，他们谈论了加入的原因，而且原因惊人地相似。那么，‘意识形态’（ideology）在这里是否仍然像以前那么重要，还是说它几乎是次要的？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "So you mentioned the caliphate as sort of the end goal for Islamist extremists, the ethnostate for right wing extremists. I remember quite a long time ago on the agenda we had on a X Neo-Nazi and an X Islamist extremist, and they talked about why, why they joined. And it was it was identical. So does the ideology matter as much here or is that almost secondary?"
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “‘意识形态’是重要的。所以，当你谈论‘我因为身份认同’（identity）或‘群体认同’（group identity）或‘社区’（community）而加入时，意识形态就介入了，它会说：‘是哪个社区？’对吧？因为如果仅仅是任何社区，我们就可以去参加扑克联赛，对吧？或是‘人类家园’（Habitat for Humanity）。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "The ideology matters for. So when you say like I joined for identity or I joined for group identity or community, the ideology comes in and says, which community. Right. Because if it was just any community, then we can go join a poker league, right? >> Habitat for humanity."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “但不行，‘社区’是经过‘隔离’（quarantined）的，它定义了谁是‘内群体’（in-group），谁是‘外群体’（outgroup）。意识形态对于告诉你‘这是什么’（what that is）非常重要。对吧？所以你不是一个普通的‘白人’（white person），而是‘一个骄傲的、被种族化的、‘白人至上民族主义者’（proud, racialized, white nationalist）；或者你不是一个普通的‘穆斯林’（Muslim），而是一个相信非常保守的‘伊斯兰教’（Islam）形式的人，‘逊尼派穆斯林’（Sunni Muslim），你知道。所以它告诉你‘层级’（tiers）是什么，以及你‘属于这里’（you belong here）。这就是意识形态的作用。所以，是的，他们都在追求‘目的’（purpose）、‘归属感’（belonging）和‘意义’（meaning），但意识形态使这些意义和社群变得非常不同。所以，这就是意识形态的作用。它负责‘解释’（explaining），对吧？因为‘社区’可以指任何社区，对吧？但这并不令人满足。对吧？所以你不是一个‘游泳俱乐部’（swim meet）的成员，你是一个‘团体’（group）的成员，对吧？那才真正有意义。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "Or habitat for humanity. But no, the community is quarantined in terms of who is the in-group and who is the outgroup. And ideology is important for telling you what that is. Right? Right. So you're a not just a white person, but a proud, racialized, white nationalist, or not just a Muslim, but someone who believes in a very conservative form of Islam, Sunni Muslim, you know. So it tells you what the what the tiers are, and you belong here. That's what ideology does. And so, yes, they're both going after purpose and belonging and meaning, but they ideology makes it very different kinds of meaning and very different communities. So that's what the ideology does. It does the explaining, right? Because community could mean any community, right. But that's not satisfying. Right? Right. And so you're not part of a swim meet, you're part of a, you're part of a group, right? That actually means something."
### 极化社会中的极端主义标签化 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “我记得你之前提到，有些人可能会认为‘乔·罗根’（Joe Rogan）是‘新纳粹’（Neo-Nazi），我觉得这很奇怪。在关于极端主义的整个讨论中，我们谈到了出现更多极端主义的可能性，我想反其道而行之。随着我们变得越来越‘两极分化’（polarized），你是否看到人们更容易因为政治分歧而给对方贴上‘极端分子’、‘激进分子’的标签？因为我经常听到‘极端分子’这个词被滥用，而这似乎仅仅是人们在进行一场普通的‘政治辩论’（political debate）。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "I think you mentioned before that it's odd that a lot of people might see, or some people might see Joe Rogan as a Neo-Nazi. And I'm curious in this whole conversation about extremism, and we've talked about the potential for more extremism, I kind of wanted to go the other way on that with as we get more polarized, are you seeing it becoming easier for folks to have a disagreement with someone politically and label that person, see that person as an extremist, as a radical, because I hear the word extremist thrown around a lot when it seems like people are just having a regular political debate."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我的意思是，我认为这是‘混乱加剧’（increased chaos）的自然结果。是的。这自然会导致‘寻找你的群体’（finding your group），而这往往是‘部落化’（tribal）的，对吧？在混乱时期，你倾向于‘高度警惕内群体’（heightened sense of the in-group），需要保护谁。这在‘进步派’（progressive side）和‘保守派’（conservative side）都存在，他们认为这不仅仅是‘税收政策’（tax policy）上的小分歧，而是你就是‘邪恶的化身’（epitome of evil）。而且，你所设想的‘加拿大’（Canada）或‘美国’（America）的未来，在根本上是邪恶和糟糕的。而我站在‘正义’（good）的一方，对吧？所以，当一切都是非混乱的时候，我认为可以很轻松地进行政治分歧。但现在，很多对话都提升到了‘宇宙层面’（cosmic level），我认为很难进行只是‘政治空间’（political space）内的对话，对吧？我认为人际交往方面的情况还好。我一直看到人们在现实世界中有非常充满活力的辩论和分歧。这只是没有发生在‘电视’（TV）或‘社交媒体’（social media）上。是的。对吧？所以，我认为有时现实生活中的行为与网络上的表现之间存在脱节。但我确实认为人们变得更加‘部落化’（tribal），政治也变得更加‘部落化’。是的，这已经变成了一个‘我们与他们’（us and them）的事情，而不是‘让我们共同努力，为国家做出贡献’。它更多的是‘谁拥有国家正确的愿景’，而‘另一方必须消失’。这条界线已经划定，从‘移民’（immigration）到‘口罩’（masks）的每一个‘琐碎问题’（mundane issue）。对吧？所以，即使是最微不足道的问题，也会划出界线。是的。我认为这对我们的政治并不好。所以，找到一种方法来‘降低温度’（turn that temperature down）很重要。我只是不知道该如何做到，考虑到网络空间和信息空间现在的样子。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "I mean, I think this is the natural consequence of like, increased chaos. Yeah. Which naturally leads to kind of finding your group, which tends to be very tribal, right? You tend to have a heightened sense of the in-group in times of chaos, who, who you need to protect. And this happens on the progressive side and on the conservative side, where they believe that it's not just a minor disagreement on tax policy, but you are the epitome of evil. And, you know, we're and your vision for what Canada or America is going to look like is fundamentally evil and bad. And I'm on the side of good, right? And so when everything is non-chaotic, I think you can have very easy political disagreements. But now it's so much of this conversation is elevated to a cosmic level where I think it's becoming harder to just have a conversation, at least on the political space, right? I think interpersonally things are good. Like I, I always see people having very vibrant debates and disagreements in the actual real world. It just doesn't happen on TV or social media. Yeah. Right. And so I think there is a disconnect there sometimes between how people behave in real life and how what it looks like online. But I do think people are becoming a little bit more tribal and politics is becoming more tribal. Yeah, it's become an us and them thing, not like let's work together for the betterment of the country. It's more like who has the right vision for the country and the other, other side needs to go away. That line has been drawn for every mundane issue from immigration down to masks. Right? And so it could be the most minutest issue. And there will be lines drawn. Yeah. Which is not great for our politics, I think. But and so figuring out a way to turn that temperature down is important. I just don't know how you do it with, with the online space and the information space the way that it is."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “我只是想提醒一下。我认为这对所有记者都很有用：‘推特’（Twitter）不是现实生活。‘推特不是现实生活’。去和一些真正的人聊聊。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "I mean, it's just good to remember that. And I think this is good for all journalists. Twitter is not real life. >> Twitter is not. >> Real life. Go and talk to some real people sort of on that."
### 去激进化：挑战与策略 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “然后，关于‘去激进化’（De-radicalization）。过去，十年前，这些二十多岁的年轻人会在非常‘边缘的消息板’（fringe message boards）上接触到这种意识形态。我认为现在，这种信息‘无处不在’（everywhere）了。那么，现在的去激进化是什么样的？我们在这方面做得如何？是因为这些东西无处不在，所以变得更困难了吗？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "And to finish De-radicalization. So once upon a time, ten years ago, these 20 somethings were coming across this ideology on very fringe message boards, right? I think if you smash cut forward to now, it's kind of everywhere. So what is what is De-radicalization look like now and how have we gotten better at it? Is it just is it just more difficult because this stuff is everywhere?"
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我认为是的，在‘ISIS时代’（ISIS days）的高峰期，确实存在一个很大的分歧：我们只关心‘暴力’，还是关心‘他们的信仰’（what they believe）？对吧？所以加拿大、美国、英国和其他国家之间存在这种分歧。英国确实走了一条‘我们需要改变他们的想法’（we need to change what they think）的路线。所以，我们需要让他们成为‘温和的穆斯林’（moderate Muslims）。对吧？而在加拿大，我们只说：‘我们不太关心你信什么。我们只想确保你没有囤积‘肥料’（fertilizer），对吧？我们只想确保你没有炸毁什么东西。’对吧？所以，这种‘二分法’（dichotomy）被转移到了‘极右翼’（far right）身上，并且现在变得更加尖锐，因为很多人相信各种奇怪的东西，而执法政策、预防类型、干预类型的人没有资源去‘思想警察’（thought police）所有人。我们真正能关注的只有‘暴力部分’，对吧？你相信什么并不重要。你是否正在滑向某种‘暴力准备阶段’（violence preparatory stage），我们需要密切关注。所以，这就是现在的‘预防空间’（prevention space）的样子。我们从未真正有过预防空间。几十年前，几乎全是执法部门。而现在，如果一个 14 岁的孩子在加拿大的一本笔记本上画了一个‘纳粹标志’（swastika），这种情况发生过，他们可能会接到警察的拜访，但警察可能会将他们转介给……你知道，少数几个‘预防组织’（prevention outfits and organizations）之一。而不是采取执法方法，而是会采取‘咨询方法’（counselling approach），而且是早期的。所以。所以，这就是预防空间的样子。处理‘去激进化’（De-radicalization）的也是这些组织。所以，很多从‘伊拉克和叙利亚’（Iraq and Syria）回来的人，让他们重新回到学校，这类事情都是由同一类群体完成的。所以，加拿大有一个相当‘有力的干预、预防、康复空间’（robust intervention prevention rehabilitation space），这在以前是不存在的。所以，他们……他们也在进行这种‘意识形态对话’（ideology conversation），当你和一个 16 岁的孩子谈话时，他……你知道，在笔记本上画了一个纳粹标志，你该怎么办？你是先谈意识形态，对吧？还是谈论他们的家庭、他们的教育、他们的‘心理健康’（mental health），以及所有这些其他事情，然后最终也许会谈到意识形态，或者也许在这一切之后，意识形态就会自行消解。对吧？所以，以一种有趣的方式，我认为……我认为在‘因果关系’（causal space）中，在‘激进化’（radicalization）的空间里，意识形态仍然相当重要。但在‘去激进化’（de-radicalization）的空间里，意识形态通常是‘后续处理’（down the line）的。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "I think so at the height of ISIS days, yeah, there was a big disagreement in the space about do we just care about the violence or do we care about what they believe? Right. And so that divide existed between Canada, the US, the UK and other countries where the UK really went down the line of we need to change what they think, right? And so we need to make them moderate Muslims. Right. And whereas in Canada, we just said we don't really care what you believe. We just want to make sure you're not like stockpiling fertilizer, right? And we just want to make sure you're not blowing stuff up. Right. And so that dichotomy got transferred into the far right and is now the now even more acute now, where a whole bunch of people believe all kinds of weird stuff and law enforcement policy, people, prevention types, intervention types don't have the resources to thought police everybody. All we can really focus on is the violent part, right? It doesn't matter what you believe. Are you tipping over into some sort of violence, preparatory violence stage, which we need to keep an eye on. And so that's what the prevention space looks like now. We never really had a prevention space. Even a couple decades ago, it was almost all law enforcement. Whereas now if a 14 year old draws a swastika on a notebook in Canada, which has happened, they might get a visit from the police, but the police might refer them to one of the, you know, one of the few prevention outfits and organizations. And instead of a law enforcement approach, it'll be a counselling approach early too. And it's early. So. So that's what the prevention space looks like. It's the same organizations that are dealing with like the De-radicalization space. So a lot of the people who came back from Iraq and Syria, making sure those kids are back in school, that sort of thing is all done by the same kind of groups. So there's a kind of robust intervention prevention rehabilitation space in Canada, which never existed before. And so they the that. And so they're also having this ideology conversation, which is when you're talking to a 16 year old about who's, you know, draws a swastika on a notebook, what do you do? You kind of talk about the ideology first, right? Or do you talk about their family and their education and their mental health, mental health and all these other things, and then eventually maybe get to the ideology, or maybe after all of that, the ideology will just work itself out. Right. So in an interesting way, I think, I think one of the, in the causal space, in the radicalization space, ideology is still quite important. But in the deradicalization space, ideology is often dealt with like down the line."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “是的。‘找到根本原因，意识形态可能就会消亡’。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "Yeah. Get to the root causes and the ideology might die."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “‘意识形态可能就会消亡’。或者，一些干预提供者会说，意识形态如此重要，你根本无法在‘建立信任’（building trust）之前就做到。对吧？所以，你必须花一年时间与这个人建立信任，然后再谈论意识形态部分。因为如果你一开始就谈意识形态，对方的‘心门会关闭’（walls are going to go up），你将无法建立任何‘二次关系’（secondary relationship）。对吧？所以，这两种方式都有其道理。但我们……加拿大新出现的，是我们在过去一段时间里有了这种‘基础设施’（infrastructure），可以在孩子们进入‘司法系统’（court system）和‘监狱系统’（prison system）之前，就把他们‘分流’（offramp）出来。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "And the ideology might die. Or in some in what some of these intervention providers will say is ideology is so important that you can't actually do it first before all the trust has been built. Right? Right. And so you have to spend a year building trust with this person and then talk about the ideological part. Because if you go in ideology first, the walls are going to go up and you're not going to have any secondary relationship. Right. And so that so it kind of works both ways. But we the what's new in Canada is we have this kind of infrastructure over the last little while to actually offramp some of these kids right before they before they go into the court system and the prison system."
### 去激进化成功的衡量标准 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “所以，有那个 14 岁的早期预防。但如果有一个孩子回来，或者一个二十多岁的年轻人从叙利亚回来，或者一个‘深陷极右翼极端主义’（steeped in the right wing extremist space）的、‘坚定的信徒’（committed believer），你让他们接受去激进化，它会起作用吗？还是说这就像‘抛硬币’（coin flip）一样？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "So there's that 14 year old early prevention. But if you get a kid coming back or 20 something coming back from Syria or someone steeped in the right wing extremist space, who's, who's a committed believer, if you get them into deradicalization, does it work or is it kind of a coin flip it."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我不会说它是‘抛硬币’，但我也不知道‘起作用’（work）意味着什么，对吧？从……从……你怎么知道它是……‘成功的标准’（what does success look like）在这个领域是什么？右？它非常，非常，非常难以知晓。比如，我有几个‘前极右翼分子’（former far right people）是我的熟人，他们……我可以说他们已经‘离开了运动’（left the movement），‘谴责了暴力’（denounced violence），但现在在网上仍然说很多‘支持特朗普的言论’（pro-Trump stuff）、‘反移民言论’（anti-immigration stuff），对吧？‘种族主义言论’（Racist stuff）。然后我就想：‘哦，你是一个还在网上说种族主义言论的前新纳粹分子。你‘去激进化’了吗？’所以，挑战在于：‘你怎么知道你已经……你已经到了另一边？’‘他不暴力’（He's not violent），这就够了吗？还是你希望他完全变成一个‘自由民主党人’（liberal Democrat）？他必须成为‘新民主党支持者’（NDP supporter）、‘社民党选民’（DP voter）？‘成功的标准是什么’（What is success），对吧？‘成功的样子是什么’？是的。所以，挑战在于：‘你要跟踪这些人多久？’‘你要辅导这些人多久？’在你最终说：‘好吧，他谴责了暴力，这就够了，因为我们这里还有其他 100 个紧急案件。’是的。所以，挑战在于：‘什么时候结束？’对吧？”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "I wouldn't go as far as coin flip, but I also don't know what work means, right? In the sense of like. In the sense of like, how do you know that it's what does success look like in this space? Right? It's very, it's very, it's very hard to know. So like I have a few former far right people who are acquaintances of mine who I would say have left the movement, have denounced violence, but now in the online space, still say a lot of pro-Trump stuff, anti-immigration stuff, right? Racist stuff. And then so for me, I'm like, oh, like you're a former neo-Nazi still saying racist stuff online. Are you de-radicalized? And, and so that's the challenge is like, how do you know that you're, that you're on the other side of it? He's not violent. Is that enough? Or do you want him to completely become like a liberal Democrat? Does he have to be an NDP supporter, DP voter? Like what is success, right? What does success look like? Yeah. And so, so that's the challenge is, is how long are you going to track these people? And how long are you going to counsel these people? And before you're like, okay, he's denounced violence and that's enough because we have 100 other cases over here who are also urgent. Yeah. And so that's the challenge is, is like, when does it end? Right?"
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “而且，感觉上……我的意思是，我们谈到了对‘意义’（meaning）、‘目的’（purpose）和‘社区’（community）的需求。这些都是‘宏大的结构性问题’（massive structural things）。所以，要解决这些问题，感觉不像是能在‘去激进化项目’（de-radicalization program）中完成的。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "Well, it also feels like, I mean, we talked about the need for meaning, purpose, community. These are massive structural things. So, so to, so to get at that stuff feels like it doesn't feel like something that can be done in a de-radicalization program. No."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “不。是的。我认为需要进行更广泛的‘结构性变革’（broader structural changes），因为无论这个‘DIY空间’（DIY space）是什么，他们回归社会后，也要重新‘融入社会’（reintegrate into society）。所以，那里必须有一些东西能给他们。有些人……我知道有几个人在 2000 年代出狱，我们做的事情之一就是……‘帮他们写简历’（help them write a resume）。是的，‘给他们展示‘iPhone’是什么’（show them what an iPhone was），因为他们进监狱时，还没有 iPhone。他们出狱时，每个人都在盯着这些‘矩形设备’（rectangular devices），他们会想：‘这是什么？怎么回事？’对吧，对吧？所以，‘重新融入’（reintegration）有时就是这么 mundane，但必须有一些东西让他们感到‘被整合’（feel integrated）到其中。‘家庭’（Family）必须还在，家庭必须没有‘抛弃’（abandoned）他们。‘朋友’（Friends）必须没有抛弃他们。‘工作’（work）是什么？‘教育’（education）看起来如何？所以这取决于……有过很棒的‘成功故事’（success stories）。是的。也有其他人只是‘停滞不前’（languishing）。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "No. Yeah. >> No, I think broader structural changes need to happen because whatever, whatever this DIY space is, they also go back into society after they reintegrate into society. And so there has to be something there for them. And so there are I mean, I know a few people who came out of prison in the 2000 who one of the things we did was like, help them write a resume. Yeah, show them what an iPhone was because they went to prison. There were no iPhones. They came out of prison and everyone was staring at these rectangular devices. They were like, what is this? What is happening? Right, right. And so reintegration sometimes is very mundane like that, but there has to be something there for them to be feel integrated into. Family has to stay. Family has to have not abandoned them. Friends have to have not abandoned them. Is their work. What does education look like? So it depends. Like there's been great success stories. Yeah. And there's been others who are just kind of languishing."
### 对去激进化未来的期望 **制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “当你展望去激进化领域的未来时，你希望看到什么改变？”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "What's one thing you'd like to see change in this space when you're when we're looking at the future of, of deradicalization."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “我会说‘持续的资金支持’（consistent funding）。因为现在，很多组织都可能因为‘一个资金周期’（one funding cycle）、‘一次选举’（one election）就失去一切。所以，有些组织根本就没有……不是‘政府多层级资助’（layers of governmental funding）。他们有联邦政府资助。没有‘省一级资金’（provincial funding），没有‘市级资金’（municipal funding）。没有融入更广泛的……‘医疗环境’（healthcare environment）。所以它非常‘脆弱’（flimsy）。因此，我希望看到这种支持得到更多、更永久的保障。但，是的，否则……否则，我认为他们做得很好。大多数都是。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "I would say consistent funding, because right now there are a lot of these organizations are like one funding cycle away, one election away from having it all taken away. And so there's no some of them anyway don't have like layers of governmental funding. They have the federal government funding them. There's no provincial funding, there's no municipal funding. There's no integrated into the broader like healthcare environment. So it's very flimsy. And so I would like to see that kind of supported more and made more permanent. But yeah, otherwise and otherwise, I think they're doing a great job. Most of them."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “嘿，伙计，谢谢你花这么多时间和我在一起。和你聊天总是很愉快。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "Hey man, thanks for spending all this time with me. It's always a joy to hang with you."
**Amarnath Amarasingam**: “是的，一直如此。总是很高兴聊天。”
Original English **Amarnath Amarasingam**: "Yeah, always. Always good to chat."
**制片人 Eric Bombicino**: “你可以在我们的网站 TVO.org 或 YouTube 频道 TVO Today 上收看 Eric 和 Amarnath 对话的第一部分。”
Original English **Producer Eric Bombicino**: "You can catch part one of Eric and Amarnath's conversation on our website at TVO.org or our YouTube channel at TVO Today."