---
author: The Diary Of A CEO
date: '2026-10-26'
guest: ''
layout: post.njk
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VTSAs4Rsck
speaker: The Diary Of A CEO
tags:
- ai-limitations
- debt-bubble
- entrepreneurship
- healthcare-reform
- personal-growth
title: 马克·库班访谈：AI 局限、债务泡沫与医疗改革
summary: 马克·库班在访谈中认为 AI 缺乏内在道德与真正的智能，指出 AI 公司借贷超过营收可能引发债务泡沫。他分享了自己从推销垃圾袋到创业的经验，强调商业如体育需持续精进。此外，他阐述了通过 Cost Plus Drugs 改革美国医疗体系、降低药价的使命，并表达了对家庭与个人成长的看法。
insight: ''
draft: true
series: ''
category: ai-application
area: tech-engineering
project: []
people:
- 马克·库班
- 史蒂文
companies_orgs:
- Cost Plus Drugs
- 达拉斯独行侠队
products_models: []
media_books:
- Shark Tank
status: evergreen
---
### 预告集锦
AI 并不聪明。AI 不知道自身行为的后果。它没有内在的道德。那些公司不断借贷并投入更多资金来为所有 AI 提供动力，但他们的借款金额已经超过了营收。我们真的可能会陷入债务泡沫。你认为我们正处于泡沫之中，对吧？
Original English
AI is not smart. AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions. It doesn't have inherent ethics. Those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money in order to power all the AI, but they're borrowing more than they're making. We literally could get into a debt bubble. You do you think we're in a bubble, don't you?
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 是什么导致了它的破裂？
Original English
>> What causes it to burst?
>> 我来告诉你。
Original English
>> I'll tell you this.
>> 那么，要理解大家在《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）、商业领域以及达拉斯独行侠队（Dallas Mavs）中所熟知并喜爱的马克·库班（Mark Cuban），最基础的要素是什么……
Original English
>> So, what are the most sort of foundational things that needs to understand the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love from the Shark Tank and the businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
>> 商业是我无论年纪多大都始终走在前端的一个领域。在成长过程中，我挨家挨户在社区里推销垃圾袋，那件事对我的推动可能比任何事情都大，因为如果你能上门推销，你就能做任何事。就像在《创智赢家》上，当有人走进来跟我介绍他们的公司时，我一眼就能看透该怎么把它卖出去。
Original English
>> So, business was an area where I I was always ahead of the curve, no matter how old I was. Growing up, I went door-to-door in the neighborhood selling garbage bags, and that probably catapulted me more than anything cuz if you can go door-to-door and sell, you can do anything. Like on a Shark Tank, when somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it.
>> 所有成为创业者的人之间，有什么共通的特质？
Original English
>> What are the sort of consistent themes amongst all people that become an entrepreneur?
>> 你必须找到一件事，并做到极致。然后再想办法把这件事变成一门生意。其次，如果你打算涉足技术、媒体或任何领域，你最好走在前端，因为商业就像一项体育运动。如果你不持续精进、提升自己的水平，你就无法参与竞争。但是，[音乐] 我们避而不谈的是：我不擅长什么？在某些方面很差劲。
Original English
>> Well, you've got to find one thing and be great at it. And then, find a way to turn that something into a business. Next, if you're going to do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve because business is like a sport. If you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not going to be able to compete. But, [music] what we don't talk about is what do I suck at? Suck at it.
>> 我犯过的最大错误之一……
Original English
>> And one of the biggest mistakes I made
>> ……就是我曾经是个混蛋。我会吼叫，会咆哮。后来我发现，为人友善比当个混球能让我走得远得多。
Original English
>> was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would scream, and I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.
>> 我最后想问你的一件事，是关于你最近做出的离开《创智赢家》、出售独行侠队的决定。
Original English
>> The last thing I wanted to ask you about is your more recent decisions around leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs.
>> 我来告诉你这个。这就说明了一切。
Original English
>> I'll tell you this. That tells you all you need to know.
>> 我这里有一些很棒的照片，我们……
Original English
>> I've got some wonderful photos here that we
>> 对，那是我弟弟布莱恩（Brian）。
Original English
>> Yeah, that's my brother Brian.
>> 布莱恩，他给你写了一封信。
Original English
>> Brian, he wrote you a letter.
>> 我的天，我可能会哭出来的。
Original English
>> Oh my god, I'll probably start crying.
>> 这里有一个奇怪的事实：现在观看这个视频的大多数人，大约 58% 的人，都还没有订阅这个频道。从统计学上讲，那很可能就是你。所以，我能请你帮个小忙吗？如果这个频道曾为你带来过任何价值，能否请你帮个忙点击一下订阅按钮？这不花 [清喉咙] 任何费用，对我们的帮助却超乎你的想象。而且随着频道越做越大，正如你所见，我们就能在嘉宾和制作上投入更多。非常感谢你，希望你喜欢这一期节目。
Original English
>> Here is a strange fact. Most of the people watching this right now, about 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to this channel. Statistically, that is probably you. So, could I ask you a small favor? If this channel has ever given you any value at all, please could you do me a favor and hit the subscribe button? It costs [clears throat] nothing. It helps us more than you could know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the more we can invest in the guests and the production. So, thank you so much and I hope you enjoy this episode.
### 保持学习与商业竞争
>> [音乐]
Original English
>> [music]
>> 马克，
Original English
>> Mark,
>> 目前世界上发生了太多事情，如果特别聚焦在商业、技术和 AI 上，我经常提到你身上非常了不起的一点是，尽管你已经取得了成功，却依然在坚持自主学习。
在经历过多次技术周期中，我都看到了你身上的这种品质。当加密货币兴起时，当 AI 出现时，我在时间线上最先看到的事情之一就是马克·库班又 [笑] 重返校园了。
Original English
>> There are so many things happening in the world at the moment and just specifically focusing in on business and technology and AI. One of the remarkable things I often reference about you is in spite of your success, you continue to self-educate. And I've watched this in you over multiple cycles of technology. When crypto became a thing, when AI showed up, one of the first things I see on my timeline is Mark Cuban going [laughter] back to school.
>> 确实是这样。
Original English
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> 你现在脑子里在想些什么？
Original English
>> What's going on in your head at the moment?
>> 对我来说，商业就像一项体育运动。如果你不持续精进、提升自己的水平，你就无法参与竞争。如果你打算涉足技术、媒体或任何领域，你最好走在前端，否则不知道哪里就会冒出一个高中生来把你打得落花流水。而我想成为那个痛击别人的人，而不是被人痛击。
Original English
>> To me, business is like a sport. And if you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not going to be able to compete. And if you're going to do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve, otherwise there's going to be some kid in high school somewhere going to kick your ass. And I want to be the one doing the ass kicking instead of getting their ass kicked.
### 成长背景与家庭影响
>> 要理解大家在《创智赢家》、商业领域以及达拉斯独行侠队中所熟知并喜爱的马克·库班，关于你最早期的经历，我最需要了解哪些最基本的事？
Original English
>> What are the most sort of foundational things I need to know about your earliest contacts to understand the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love and know from the Shark Tank and the businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
>> 我想我只是在一个普通家庭长大，身上天生有一股拼劲和冲劲，总是渴望去竞争，就像我说的，而且我能够把一个想法变成一门生意并取得成功。
Original English
>> I think I just grew up in a regular family and just had the piss and vinegar in me to always want to compete, like I said, and I was able to turn an idea into a business and be successful.
>> 听起来，你的父母对你产生了深远的影响。
Original English
>> And you had very um formative parents by the sounds of things.
>> 是的，我的成长环境很好。我父亲做汽车内饰软包，纯粹的蓝领。我母亲打零工。
Original English
>> Yeah, I mean, I had great upbringing. My dad did upholstery on cars, pure blue collar. My mom did odd jobs.
>> 当然，还有我父亲。
Original English
>> Of course, my dad.
>> 是的，那是我的祖父母，还有我母亲。生我的时候我母亲才 20 岁……
Original English
>> Yeah, that's my grandparents, my mom. My mom was only 20 when I was
>> ……二弟布莱恩，还有我父亲。那是我们住在匹兹堡梅多拉克（Meadowlark）的时候。
Original English
>> brother Brian, who's the middle brother, and my dad. That's when we lived on Meadowlark in Pittsburgh.
>> 你父亲一生中赚得最多的一年也没超过 40,000 美元。
Original English
>> Your father never made more than $40,000 in his life.
>> 从来没有。没有，在我们出门上学的时候，他早就起床去工作离开了。他做内饰软包时其实失去了一只眼睛。是我上六年级的时候，一颗订书钉断裂崩了出来，但他始终是个埋头苦干的人，而且……
是的，很了不起。我很想念他。
Original English
>> Never. No, he would be up work um and gone by the time we were leaving for school. He actually lost an eye when he was doing upholstery. There was a staple that broke when I was in sixth grade, but he just always was a grinder and just
Yeah, amazing. I miss him.
>> 你想念他？
Original English
>> You miss him?
>> 我想念他们两位。无论我们走到哪里，他总是有朋友；即使他在那里不认识人，他们也很快就会变成他的朋友。我认为这比任何事情都更为我和我兄弟树立了极好的榜样。
Original English
>> I miss them both. Everywhere we went, he always had friends, and if he didn't know people there, they quickly became his friends. And I think that set a great example for my brothers and I more than anything.
>> 你常提到的那些源自他的高屋建瓴的教诲，有哪些呢？
Original English
>> What are some of those sort of high-level lessons that you always reference come from him?
>> 他会说一些话，比如“你并非生活在一个生来就注定的世界里”；或者“今天是你往后日子里最年轻的一天”。诸如此类的话。而且无论我当时在折腾什么营生，他总是全力支持。始终如此。
Original English
>> You know, he would say things that like you don't live in the world you were born into. You know, today's the youngest you'll ever be. That type of thing where, you know, no matter what hustle I had going on, he was always supportive. Always.
### 从卖球星卡到推销垃圾袋
>> 在那些照片里的年纪，你觉得自己长大后会成为什么样的人？
Original English
>> And what did you think you were going to be when you were older at that age in those photos?
>> 棒球运动员。
Original English
>> Oh, a baseball player.
>> 真的吗？
Original English
>> Really?
>> [笑]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 是的，我打得不错，但还没到足够优秀的程度。不过在那之后，事情就很明显了：我要成为一个商人。
Original English
>> Yeah, I was good, but not good enough. Um, but then after that, it became apparent that I was going to be a business guy.
>> 我觉得从你的经历就能看出来……对，我小时候卖过……
Original English
>> I mean, I think it was apparent from your Yeah, I sold
>> ……卡片。
Original English
>> cards when I was a kid.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 我的天，你弄到了一些好东西。
Original English
>> Oh my god, you got some good ones.
>> 我是说，你当时也开始在这外面卖其中的一些东西了。
Original English
>> I mean, you also started selling some of these out here as well.
>> 是的，我当时的做法是……
Original English
>> Yeah, so what I would do is
>> [笑]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 是的，大约在 9 岁或 10 岁的时候，我会去当地的药房，他们那里卖一包包的棒球卡。我会用自己的零花钱买上一大堆，然后用报纸上的连环画之类的纸重新包装起来。买这些……成本大概只要 25 美分，然后以 50 美分卖出。保证你能拿到一张匹兹堡海盗队球员的卡，比如罗伯托·克莱门特（Roberto Clemente）或者威利·斯塔格尔（Willie Stargell）。我把它们卖掉赚钱，然后再拿去转手赚更多。
那确实是我最早开始折腾做生意的经历。后来有一天，我父亲和他的哥们儿打扑克，他们会轮流去彼此家里，那天正好轮到在我们家。我走进去拿个甜甜圈，我说：“爸，我想要一双新的篮球鞋。”他看了看我的脚，说：“那双鞋还能穿。等你有工作了，想买什么就买什么。”我说：“爸，我才 12 岁。”他其中一个肯定喝醉了的朋友就说：“嘿，我有东西可以给你卖。我这有几箱垃圾袋，3 美元一箱卖给你，你可以按 6 美元卖出去。”
然后我真的就在社区里挨家挨户敲门，我会说：“嗨，我是你的邻居马克。你用垃圾袋吗？”很好卖，对吧？那件事对我的推动可能比任何事情都大，因为如果你能上门推销，你就能做任何事。
Original English
>> Yeah, so when I was like 9 or 10 years old, I would go to the local pharmacy, and they would sell packs of baseball cards. And I would buy a bunch of them, um, with my allowance, and then I would repackage them using like the comics and everything for the paper. Buy these for like I cost me like a quarter, buy them for 50 cents. You're guaranteed to get a Pittsburgh pirate like Roberto Clemente or Willie Stargell. And I would sell them and make money, then I'd go and turn it around and make more.
And that literally was my first start in hustling. And then one day, my dad was playing poker with his buddies, you know, they'd rotate to each other's houses, and he they were at our house, and I went in there to grab a donut, and I was like, "Dad, I want a new pair of basketball shoes." And he looks at my feet, and he goes, "Those shoes work. When you have a job, you can buy whatever you want." I'm like, "Dad, I'm 12." And one of his buddies who had to have been drunk was like, "Hey, I got something you can sell. I've got boxes of garbage bags that I'll sell to you for $3 and you can sell them for six."
And literally, I went door-to-door in the neighborhood and I'd be like, "Hi, I'm your neighbor Mark. Do you use garbage bags?" Easy sell, right? And that probably catapulted me more than anything cuz if you can go to door-to-door and sell, you can do anything.
### 销售：创业的核心技能
>> 这种关于销售的概念，在你看来成为创业者的终极技能之一，可以说是你非常看重的。
这太有意思了，因为我年轻时在呼叫中心待了很长时间打陌生拜访电话，但我总是说，最好的销售经验就是上门推销。
Original English
>> This whole idea of selling is um is sort of very top of mind for you in terms of the one of the ultimate skills of building becoming an entrepreneur.
And and I it's so funny cuz I spent a lot of time in call centers when I was younger doing cold calls, but I always say that the best sales experience is door-to-door sales.
>> 或者是呼叫中心，对吧？每一次被拒绝都会让你离成交更近一步，对吧？懂得如何应对别人的拒绝，如何处理异议，以及如何迅速反应。这锻炼的就是思维敏捷度。一旦你掌握了销售技能，你就拥有了一份终身饭碗。
Original English
>> Or call or call call centers, right? Every no gets you closer to a yes, right? Just knowing how to deal with people telling you no and how to deal with objections and how to respond quickly. It just trains your mind to be quick. And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life.
>> 为什么销售对于成为一名创业者如此重要？
Original English
>> Why is selling so important as it relates to becoming an entrepreneur?
>> 没有哪家企业在没有销售的情况下能够成功。如果你不认为自己的产品或服务好到让你极度渴望去推销它，如果你认为向别人介绍无论什么产品并不是在帮助他们，那就行不通，对吧？因为这正是销售的核心所在。你在那个呼叫中心的时候，都卖些什么？
Original English
>> No business has ever succeeded without sales. And if you don't think your product or service is so good that you're dying to sell it, that you think that by talking to somebody about whatever product it is, you're not helping them, right? Cuz that's the whole point of sales. You know, when you were in that call center, what did you sell?
>> 什么都卖。窗户、门、暖房阳光房、双层玻璃。
Original English
>> Uh everything. Uh windows, doors, conservatories, double glazing.
### 销售的原则与创业误区
>> 对，没错。而且关键全在于帮助他们。你会遇到各种反对意见，我去推销——我当时是在挨家挨户推销杂志。一旦你学会了如何销售，学会了如何应对反对意见，一旦你的大脑能像你在呼叫中心那样飞速运转、随时等待并做出反应，那还有什么是你卖不掉的？
Original English
>> Right, right. And it was all about helping them. And you'd have the objections and I I'd go sell it I was selling magazines door-to-door. Once you learn how to sell, once you learn how to deal with objections, once you your mind is spinning waiting and reacting just like you did in a call center, what can't you sell?
>> 成为一名优秀的销售人员有什么原则吗？或者说，比如在《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）上，当你看到有人走进来而且非常擅长销售时，那些原则是什么？
Original English
>> Are there any principles of being a good sales person? Or even in you know, on Shark Tank, when you see someone come in and they're great at sales, what are those principles?
>> 你要在乎。你了解自己的产品。你想帮助别人。你不是在试图说服他们去做违背他们利益的事。你是在努力理解并了解他们的利益，帮助他们实现目标，或是达到你的产品碰巧能做到的任何事情。可能比如，“嘿，你不用特意去商店搬一包东西回来了”，或者比如你在推销窗户。“你看，你肯定不想透过那些脏兮兮的窗户往外看。你看，你知道上面有裂缝。你知道因为这些窗户，你的电费账单高得离谱，而我们是来替换它们的，每个月只要17美元就能帮你省钱，你看，省下的电费完全可以值回本钱”，对吧？就像在《创智赢家》上，当有人走进来跟我讲他们的公司时，我一眼就能看出我会怎么去卖它，或者它为什么卖不出去。而一旦你能做到这一点，你永远都能找到工作。如果你是一名创业者，或者想成为一名创业者，并且找到了自己热爱的东西、热爱的产品或服务，那么销售它就会变得很容易。
Original English
>> You care. You know your product. You want to help people. You're not trying to convince them to do something against their interest. You're trying to understand and learn their interest and help them achieve their goals or whatever your product may have happen to do. It may be, hey, you don't have to go to the store and pick up a back or it may be when you're selling something, you know, windows. You know, you don't want to look through those dirty windows. You know, you know there's a crack. You know your electricity bill is up way too high because of your windows and we're here to replace them and for only $17 a month will save you, you know, it'll more than pay for itself in the electricity bill, right? Like on a Shark Tank when somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it or could not sell it. And once you can do that, you're always going to be able to get a job. And if you are an entrepreneur or want to be an entrepreneur and you find something that you love and a product or service you love, then selling it's easy.
>> 你知道，我们常常听说有人因为想出了某个科技点子而成了极其成功的亿万富翁。那是他们的第一件事，比如扎克伯格。
Original English
>> You know, oftentimes we hear about people becoming wildly successful billionaires because they came up with some tech idea. It was their first thing, like a Zuckerberg.
>> 对。
Original English
>> Right.
>> 然后它取得了巨大的成功，而他们才大概25岁。
Original English
>> And it becomes this huge success and they're like 25.
>> 对。
Original English
>> Right.
>> 所以有时候当我们到了32岁左右，
Original English
>> So sometimes when we're like 32,
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 所以 Mr. Ball，对吧？
Original English
>> So Mr. Ball, right?
>> 我们错过了机会。
Original English
>> we missed the boat.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 但后来当我读到你的故事时，你知道，我记得你当时大概是31岁、32岁，你的第一家公司卖了200万美元，这也是一笔——
Original English
>> But then when I read your story, you know, I think you were like 31 years old, 32 years old and your first business was sold for $2 million, which is a
>> 它是卖了五百万，净赚两百万。
Original English
>> It was sold for five and netted two.
>> 你的意思是净赚两百万，好吧。现在的年轻人对于成功需要付出什么——无论是在牺牲、时间、耐心还是技能的复合累积方面——最大的误解是什么？因为我觉得他们极其缺乏耐心。
Original English
>> You mean netted two, okay. What is the big misconception that like young people these days have about what it takes, whether it's in terms of sacrifice or time or patience or compounding skills because they are incredibly impatient, I think.
>> 是的，我的意思是，我以前也是一样没有耐心，但我认为这真的取决于你的个人境况。比如我当时没有什么可失去的。我身无分文。你[笑声]知道的，我刚被一份工作开除，所以创办 MicroSolutions 是一个很容易做出的选择。我当时跟六个人挤在一间三居室的公寓里，自己连个独立的卧室都没有，所以就会觉得，为什么不试试呢？我记得当时非常惶恐，心里想着，好吧，我已经撑过1个月了，这就是一次胜利。3个月、6个月、9个月。我有15,000美元的应收账款，你看，我正在一步步搬离我住的这个烂地方。所以，这真的取决于你的个人境况，但我总是告诉年轻的创业者，如果你身无分文、无所顾忌，哪怕你还在打工——就像我当时在一边做调酒师一边干——那就走出去，做你该做的事，开启你该开启的事业。
我认为最大的误解之一是：第一，你必须去融资；第二，如果你真的融了资，达到庞大的销售额数字就成了至高无上的终极目标，而不是去实现盈利。对 MicroSolutions 来说，在我们存在的整整8年里，我们每个月都是盈利的。我的意思是，我们确保自己卖出了足够的量，并且控制住成本，好让我能够生存下去并不断向前迈进。而我认为现在的年轻人，他们听着关于扎克伯格们、山姆·奥特曼们的故事，感觉就像到了12岁左右就身家数十亿美元了。他们就会想，好吧，那我也要这么做。他们跑到硅谷，融到了所有这些钱，却根本没有意识到，绝大多数成功人士并不是那些亿万富翁，对吧？而是那些赚了几百万、500万、1000万、2500万、5000万、1亿美元的人。处于这种境况中的人要多出好几倍，我并不是说达到那一步很容易，但这是可以做到的，对吧？这不是硅谷梦，这是美国梦。你在起步时，你身处何地、你能做什么以及你具备什么技能来达成它，正是这些带来了不同。
Original English
>> Yeah, I mean, I was just as impatient, but I think it really depends on your personal circumstances. Like I had nothing to lose. I was broke. You [laughter] know, I had gotten fired from a job, so starting MicroSolutions was an easy choice. I was living six guys in a three-bedroom apartment, didn't have my own bedroom, so it was like, why not? And I remember being terrified and thinking, okay, I've been in business 1 month, that's a win. 3 months, 6 months, 9 months. I have $15,000 in accounts receivable, you know, I'm on my way of moving out of this [ __ ] I live in. So, it really depends on your personal circumstances, but I I always tell young entrepreneurs, like if you're broke and you got nothing to lose, you know, even if you're working a job, like I was working as a bartender and you know, go out and do what you got to do and start what you've got to start. I think one of the big misconceptions is A, you have to raise money and B, if you do raise money, hitting big sales numbers is like the ultimate end-all-be-all as opposed to being profitable. For MicroSolutions, our entire 8-year existence, we were profitable every single month. I mean, we made sure that we sold enough and kept our costs in line so that I was going to be able to stay alive and and keep on moving forward. And I think kids today, they hear the stories about the Zuckerbergs and you know, the Sam Altmans and it's like billions of dollars by the time you're, you know, 12. Um and they think, okay, that's the way I'll do it. They went out to Silicon Valley and they raised all this money and they don't even realize that the greatest number of successful people aren't the billionaires, right? It's the people that have made a few million, 5 million, 10 million, 25, 50, 100 million dollars. There's a multiple of number of people in that those set of circumstances and I'm not saying it's easy to get there, but it's doable, right? It's not a Silicon Valley dream, it's the American dream. And it's where you are and what you can do and what skills you have to accomplish it that makes the difference when you get started.
>> 假如我想成为一个百万富翁。在所有成为百万富翁、千万元户、亿元户的人当中，有什么贯穿始终的共同主题吗？无论你在哪个行业打拼，是不是都存在某些你必然需要的原则？我们刚才谈到了销售——
Original English
>> What are if I'm trying to become a millionaire, let's say. What are the sort of consistent themes amongst all people that become millionaires, 10, you know, a 10 millionaire, 100 millionaire? Are is there like certain principles that you're going to need regardless of what industry you're playing in? So, we talked about sales
>> 是的，销售显然是其中之一，但你知道，要成为百万富翁，我认为你只需要在某件事上极其精通。然后想办法把那件事转变成一门生意。它可能是销售，可能是编程，可能是搞修修补补，可能是绘画，可能是当创作者，不管是什么，但如果你不擅长它，你开创任何生意都不可能让你成为百万富翁。你懂的，你必须在某件事上很优秀。这就引出了关于专注的观点，因为很多创业者——我敢肯定你在《创智赢家》里经常碰到这种情况，但在节目之外也是如此——他们认为手头有三个想法或者三件事情是在增加胜算。对吧。不，那太荒谬了。或者他们会说：“我想成为一名创业者，我应该做什么？”
Original English
>> Yeah, sales obviously, but you know, to be a millionaire, I think you've just got to be really good at something. And then find a way to turn that something into a business. It may be sales, it may be programming, it may be tinkering, it may be drawing, it may be a create being a creator, whatever it may be, but if you're not good at it, there's no business that you start that's going to make you a millionaire. You know, you got to be good at something. This brings me to the the point about focus cuz lots of entrepreneurs, I'm sure you get this a lot in Shark Tank, but outside of the the tank is they think that having three ideas or three things is increasing their odds. Right. No, that's ridiculous. Or they say, um I want to be an entrepreneur, what should I do?
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 对吧？“我应该创办什么企业？”我都觉得，天哪。不，你必须找到一件事并把它做到极致。因为一旦你在某件事上做到了极致，大门就会敞开。因为如果这不是你自己的公司，他们也必须留下你，因为你很厉害。在那家公司里无论谁跟你竞争，他们看着都会说：“哇，史蒂文真厉害，或者马克真厉害。”然后你就会意识到：“我很擅长这个。如果我想创业，也许我可以围绕自己擅长的事情去创办一家公司。”
Original English
>> Right? What business should I start? I'm like, oh my god. No, you've got to find one thing and be great at it. Cuz once you're great at something, doors open up wide. Because if it's not your company, then they got to keep you because you're great. And whoever you compete with in that company, they're looking at it and saying, wow, you know, Steven's great, you know, or Mark's great. And then you're like, I'm great at this. Maybe if I want to be an entrepreneur, I can start a business about what I'm great at.
>> 你最有可能在什么事情上变得卓越？
Original English
>> What are you most likely to become great at?
>> 在你花费时间的地方。人们往往觉得这关乎激情。“噢，我很有激情。”我以前对成为棒球运动员、篮球运动员充满激情。但这对我一点帮助都没有，对吧？我认为当你意识到自己在哪里花费时间时，那就是你发现自己喜欢做的事情的地方。当你喜欢做某件事时，如果它完全可以转化为一门生意，那你就会不断变得越来越好，因为这就像其他任何事情一样，无论是科技、卖窗户，对吧？无论是什么，安装窗户。当你开始意识到自己比周围的人做得更好时，你的信心就会增加，你学习更多的意愿就会增加，你想探寻怎样才能更进一步，从而做到绝对最好。当这些情况发生时，你就可以创办一家公司，而你能做的事情将无可限量。
Original English
>> Where you spend your time. Like people think it's about passion. Oh, I'm passionate. I was passionate to be a baseball player, basketball player. Didn't help me at all, right? And I think when you realize where you're spending your time is where you find things that you like to do. And when you like to do something, if it's convertible to a business at all, then you keep on getting better and better and better cuz it's like anything else, whether it's tech, selling windows, right? Whatever it is, installing windows. When you start realizing you're better than the people around you, your confidence goes up, your willingness to learn more goes up, you want to find how you can be even better so you could be the absolute best. When those things happen, you can start a company and there's no limit to what you can do.
### 长期主义与收购独行侠
>> 我最近花了很多时间思考“长期主义”这个概念。我的意思是，非常有意思的是，当你把时间视角拉长到几乎任何事情上时——就像你在职业生涯中的许多尝试一样。
Original English
>> I've spent a lot of time recently thinking about um long-termism as an idea. And what I mean by this is it's just interesting that when you take a longer time view to almost anything, like you have in many sort of endeavors in your career.
>> 是啊。[笑声] 没错。
Original English
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, right.
>> 我当时在想独行侠队（Mavericks），
Original English
>> I was I was thinking about the Mavericks that um
>> 没错。
Original English
>> Yep.
>> 很有意思的是，当下的决策会如何发生改变，以及这会如何创造出护城河。
Original English
>> it's it's interesting how today's decisions change and how that creates a moat.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 因为我觉得我们生活在一个人们有时按季度周期规划，或者有时按五年期规划的世界里。但我纵观世界，有那么几位创业者让我觉得：“噢，他们思考的是10年、20年后的事情。”
Original English
>> Because we we live in a world I think where people plan sometimes in quarterly cycles or sometimes they plan in 5-year seasons. But there's a couple of entrepreneurs that I look out into the world and think, "Oh, they were thinking like 10, 20 years."
>> 那并不是我。
Original English
>> That wasn't me.
>> 噢，真的吗？[笑声] 是吗。
Original English
>> Oh, really? [laughter] Yeah.
>> 不是。不过在独行侠队这件事上呢？
Original English
>> No. What about with with What about with the Mavericks though?
>> 当时我涉足独行侠队并买下独行侠队时——
Original English
>> So when I got into the with the Mavericks and I bought the Mavericks,
>> 解释一下，对所有人来说这是一支篮球队——
Original English
>> which is a basketball team for anyone
>> 是一支篮球队，对，NBA的。我当时是个篮球迷，
Original English
>> Basketball team, yeah, in the NBA. And so I was a basketball junkie,
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 对吧？而且我是季票持有者，去现场看了一场比赛，然后我想：“等等，也许我可以买下这支球队，对吧？”因为我刚赚了这所有钱，我觉得：“这听起来挺好玩的。”我买它并不是因为把它当成一门生意，
Original English
>> right? And I was a season ticket holder and went to a game and I was like, "Wait, maybe I could buy this team, right?" Cuz I just made all this money and I was like, "That sounds fun." And I did it not because it was a business,
不是因为我看好长期持有球队的前景。我当时想：“这可能真的会很有趣。”而且还有什么能比跟德克·诺维茨基、史蒂夫·纳什还有迈克尔·芬利一起去投篮更好的呢？所以这就是吸引我涉足的原因。但我甚至都没真正把它当成一门生意。我更多是把它看作一次智力上的探索，对吧？一次智力上的挑战。我能不能接手一支烂队——它还被评为前十年最差的职业体育俱乐部——然后把它变成一支常胜之师？这就是我的目标。很长一段时间里，这压力都很大，因为我胜负欲太强了。输掉一场比赛，我得花两天时间才能缓过来。但后来到了某个节点，也就是在我卖掉球队前不久，在我看来，事情的重心从篮球变成了估值。它从“嘿，我热爱篮球，这一切都关乎篮球”，变成了NBA更多在讨论“好吧，这些球队值多少钱？”大家谈论的不再是“我们怎样才能让比赛更好？”，而是“我们怎样才能让它更值钱？”对我来说，这只会带来更多压力，因为为了竞争，你必须擅长房地产，以及那些跟篮球毫无关系的事情。所以，我真希望自己能告诉你当时我想的是“好吧，我有这25年的长远规划”。但我不能这么说，我也从没想过自己会卖掉。但后来周围的环境变了，而且我想，有了孩子也改变了我。
Original English
not because I saw this long, you know, horizon of owning the team. I thought, "This could just really be fun." And what could be better than, you know, going and shooting baskets with Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash and Michael Finley. So that's what got me into it. But I didn't even really look at it as a business. I looked at it more as an intellectual endeavor, right? An intellectual challenge. Can I take a team that was awful and got voted the worst professional sports franchise of the previous decade and turn it into a winning team? And that was my goal. And for a long time, it was stressful cuz I'm so competitive. Losing a game, it would take me 2 days to get over a loss. But then it got to the point, you know, not long before I sold where in my opinion, it went from being about basketball to being about valuations. And it went from, "Hey, I love basketball and this is all about basketball, to the NBA being more about, "Okay, how much are these teams worth?" And the conversation is not being about, "How can we make the game better?" But, "How can we make it more valuable?" And to me, that just created more stress, you know, because in order to compete, you had to be good at real estate and things that had nothing to do with basketball. So, I wish I could tell you that I was like, "Okay, I I have this 25-year horizon." But, I can't tell you I never thought I would sell. But, then things changed around me, and I guess, you know, having kids changed me as well.
Original English
>> You bought the team for What was it? $200 million roughly?
Original English
>> 285, yeah.
Original English
>> And you sold it for
Original English
>> 4.3.
Original English
>> Billion?
Original English
>> Yeah.
Original English
>> What I find interesting is the point you just made about you'll become great at the things where you want to spend your time on them. And again, the point you made before that was entrepreneurs, when they come to you and say, "I want to be an entrepreneur." And then they go looking for an idea, tend to fail. This is a prime example of you doing exactly what you described, where it was somewhere you wanted to spend your time, which meant that you became good at it.
Original English
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Original English
>> I saw how the team's performance drastically improved over the years that were you were the majority owner, but also some of the things you implemented around data and performance, um, and technology into the Mavs, and it becomes a great business. But, you never
Original English
>> yeah. Not a Turned out Turned out to be a great business, yeah. You just don't know, but when you're doing something you love, right? It's the old cliché, you know, you don't you don't work [clears throat] a day in your life, but it's true.
Original English
>> How do you define the success? Waking up in the morning with a smile on your face, excited about the day.
Original English
>> Mhm.
Original English
>> [clears throat]
Original English
>> And that's hard. Most people can't do that. Most people look and they say, "Okay, I got to go to work." You know, I got to do this. I've got these five things I got to get done and or, you know, whatever. I was, even when I was broke, I was fired up, you know, and the Mavs, you know, got me It was It was amazing cuz sports are so much different than every other business. You can work for a company like Google and they have the best quarter ever or they set records, you know, Apple becomes the most valuable company in the world, nobody throws a parade.
Original English
>> [laughter]
Original English
>> You win a championship, the whole city's on fire and they're throwing parades and the a half a million a million people converge on downtown in 100 degrees heat to to scream at the players and everybody. So, this is just so different and that that's what made the Mavs special.
Original English
>> Is that amongst your best days in your life winning the championship?
Original English
>> Uh business-wise, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I'll tell you this, you know, it was so anti-climactic internally for me. I've seen so many games where we thought we were going to win and ended up losing them and they had LeBron and, you know, uh etc. and I was like, okay, they're we're up by 10 points with 30 seconds to go. There's no chance that we're losing this and then they hit a three, I'm like, oh, shut the [ __ ] up, Mark, right? And then we got to the point where we won, I'm like, okay, the clouds should, you know, open up and the sun should shine and I just realized, oh, this is great. I'm screaming and yelling, but now what?
Original English
>> Oh, [ __ ] Yeah.
Original English
>> And it wasn't so much how I felt and hugging all the guys and hugging everybody, but it was how the city felt and that's what really made it special when I would take the trophy to schools, I would take it to bars, I would take it to restaurants, I would take it to my kids' events, whatever it was and to see their eyes light up. Just that communal joy, that's what made it special.
Original English
>> You said there you know, there's many people that are listening that are basically trapped. They they feel trapped. They feel stuck in a 9-to-5 job. They living paycheck to paycheck. Um I've been there, you've been there. What advice would you have for them? They might have a thousand dollars in savings
Original English
>> Mhm.
Original English
>> and they're trying to get out of that situation. Is there some type of life life raft? Are there are there principles of how to escape?
Original English
>> I say this to new college graduates all the time. Don't go get the best job cuz that's the hardest to find. Don't get the perfect job cuz those are hard to find. Just get a job. And when you have a job, just work to be really good at it. The second part of that is you have to be really honest with yourself, cuz nobody looks at the job they're doing and says, "I suck." Right? They're like, "Oh, I'm great at this. They just don't realize it." No, you have to be honest and talk to people around you. But when you're really good at something, that's when doors do open up. And even in the worst possible job, you know, you could be working at a McDonald's, at a Dairy Queen, but there's a path. You know, and if you understand how to move up that path, even though your life mission isn't to be the manager of of a McDonald's or a Dairy Queen or whatever, the fact that you can show a future employer that you moved up the line, and then when they ask for a reference, they said, "Steven was incredibly valuable. We're really sorry, you know, that he's leaving. We tried to keep him." That's what you need, and that can happen in 2 3 years. It's just most people don't want to think like that. You know, you get in your head and you get inside yourself. It's just like, "Oh, this is miserable, yada yada yada."
Original English
>> And it's funny looking backwards on journeys like yours, where it's often jobs that most people wouldn't think were glamorous that end up being the most sort of important or formative to your skill stack. You were talking about door-to-door sales people. You mentioned what is it, Dairy Queens there or like McDonald's. I I think I remember that Jeff Bezos worked at McDonald's, and this is really where he learned about this sort of like customer obsession, customer service.
Original English
>> Yes. You start to understand. Yeah, boy, Marley's pub. [laughter] But yeah, you learn how to deal with people, how to deal with customers. That can happen in any job. It's just I read this book in high school. It was called Why Men Rebel. And it said, "Most people have aspirations that are up here, and when their real lives they feel like are down here here,
Original English
>> Mhm.
Original English
>> they you know, a lot of people won't just accept it okay, cuz no one wants to think, "I'm not going to do or not to accomplish anything." So that's when they start fighting and rebelling and joining, you know, groups that are counter to what's happening in society. And And I think understanding that in yourself, you know, you have to be at least self-aware a little bit to understand that it's okay to be frustrated, but you can't let it overtake your life. You've got to be able to put yourself in a position to at least feel better about yourself, even if it's not perfect.
Original English
>> Did you rebel?
Original English
>> Uh my whole life, yeah. I was always counterculture.
Original English
>> [laughter]
Original English
>> I remember being in high school, and I was 4 in shorter, 25 lb heavier. You can't tell here, but I these two teeth are caps. And cuz my parents didn't have any money, I ran into a bicycle,
Original English
it broke my teeth, and I got caps that were aluminum steel. That's what they were. They were steel. And I'm 16 years old. Like and people like my friends were like, "Ah, the reflection." But you just
>> [叹气与喘息]
Original English
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> 你只能去寻找自己的出路。你不能自暴自弃。
Original English
>> You just have to find your path. You can't get down on yourself.
>> 许多感到陷入困境的人可能在琢磨的一件事，大概是试图在心里权衡这需要做出多大牺牲。我听你谈起过努力工作，以及你一路走来所付出的牺牲——从大概22岁、当时我相信还在匹兹堡，到创办你最终被收购的第一家公司MicroSolutions。这种牺牲究竟是什么样的？如果当时我是一个旁观者，在你想必还有一份工作、然后开始创业的那段时间，我会看到你的……你的生活到底是什么样子的？
Original English
>> One of the things that a lot of people who feel stuck um are probably thinking about is they're probably wait trying to wait mentally the amount of sacrifice it's going to take. And when I I've heard you talk about hard work and the sacrifices that you had to take to build yourself from this sort of 22-year-old who is in Pittsburgh, I believe at the time, to starting your first business which ended up being acquired Micro Solutions. What does the sacrifice look like? If I was a fly on the wall when you I'm presumably had a job at that time, and then you started building the business. What would I have seen in terms of your How did your life look?
>> 那么，当我到达拉斯时，就像我说的，我和五个室友住在一起，没有床，我就睡在地上。我是说，那就是牺牲的例子，住在一个[脏话]地方。我找了一份晚上做调酒师的工作，但几乎紧接着又在一家软件店找到了一份工作。对我来说，那本该是我迈入一份真正工作的第一步，对吧，一份让我能有前途的工作。但我9个月后就被解雇了。而且——
Original English
>> So, when I got to Dallas, moved in with, like I said, five roommates, didn't have a bed, I just slept on the floor. I mean, that's example of sacrifice, living in a [ __ ] Got a job working at night as a bartender, but then almost immediately got a job working at a software store. And that was going to be for me my first step into a real job, right, where I could have a future. But I got fired 9 months later. And
>> 酷。
Original English
>> Cool.
>> 我想从我住的那个[脏话]地方搬出去，而当时我眼看着就要拿到一笔1500美元的佣金，这笔钱本可以帮我解决搬家的问题。所以我打电话给我老板说：“我得去取这张支票。你会赚到钱，我也会赚到钱。能不能找个人替我开一下我上班的那家零售店的门？”他却说：“不行，我需要你留在店里。”于是我擅自做主决定去取支票，心想等我把支票拿回来，一切都会没事。结果他当场把我解雇了。把我开除了，我就想：“好吧，你看，我做员工真的很差劲。
Original English
>> I wanted to move out of the [ __ ] I lived in, and I was going to be looking at a $1,500 commission, which would have done it for me. So I called my boss, and I'm like, "I need to go pick up this check. You'll make money, I'll make money. Can I have somebody to cover opening up the retail store that I worked in?" And he was like, "No, I need you in the store." And I made the executive decision to go pick up the check, thinking when I brought it in, everything would be well. He fired me on the spot. Fired me, and I'm like, "Okay, you know, I suck as an employee.
>> [清嗓子]
Original English
>> [clears throat]
>> 这不是我想要的。我要创办自己的公司。”我不知道自己会不会把这称为牺牲，但我会称之为推迟即时满足。你知道，我很清楚要取得某种程度的成功好搬出那个公寓，是需要时间的。我必须拼命推销，去学我不懂的东西。那是PC革命的早期，个人电脑刚刚兴起。我屁都不懂[脏话]，但其他人也一样不懂。在我看来，说到软件，对任何特定软件比我更懂的人只可能有一个，那就是编写它的人。如果我拼命下苦功，那我至少并列第二，对吧？当出现像Lotus 1-2-3这样的新程序时——如果你还记得那个程序的话。孩子，不记得？什么？别开玩笑了。那是一个非常……那是第二款电子表格软件。那是一款重量级的电子表格软件。所以总之，我的想法就是我要投入时间去钻研那款软件，不管有多少个软件包，我都要学得比所有人都多。我真的会通宵留在那个零售店里，或者把电脑搬回那个破烂[脏话]公寓，就坐在那里一遍又一遍地自学。一遍又一遍地读手册，因为只要我能领先其他人、独自排在第二位，我在我……在MicroSolutions就会比其他所有人拥有巨大的优势。对于AI也是完全一样。新的AI问世，新的模型问世，新的软件问世，除了创造者之外，其他所有人都是并列第二，而我要通过学得更快、更好来把他们甩在身后。
Original English
>> This is not what I want. I'm going to start my own company." And I don't know if I'd call it sacrifice, but I'd call it deferring immediate gratification. You know, I knew that it was going to take time for me to get any level of success to move out of that apartment. I was going to have to sell hard, learn stuff I didn't understand. This was the early days of the PC revolution when PCs were starting to happen. I don't know the [ __ ] but either does anybody else. In my mind, when it came to software, there was only going to be one person who understood any given software better than me, and that would be the person who wrote it. And that if I busted my ass, I was tied for second, right? When that's new program like Lotus 1-2-3, if you remember that one. Kid, no. What? Shut up. It was a very It was a second spreadsheet. That was a big spreadsheet. And so anyways, my idea was I was going to put in the time to learn that software, however many software packages that is, more than everybody. And I literally would stay in that retail store overnight, or I'd take the computer back to the [ __ ] apartment and just sit there and teach myself and teach myself. Read the manuals over and over because if I can get ahead of everybody else to be in second by myself, I would have a huge edge over everybody else in my in for MicroSolutions. Just the same with AI. New AI comes out, new model comes out, new software comes out, there's the creator and everybody else is tied for second and I'm going to kick their ass by learning it faster, better.
### 人工智能时代的机遇与准备
>> 而AI显然是目前商业领域最受瞩目的焦点。你认为这有多重要？
Original English
>> And AI is obviously like the the time of the moment in business. How's How significant do you think this is?
>> 嗯，我是说，我在科技行业干了很久。这让其他所有加在一起的事物都相形见绌。这……是的，这要宏大得多。有了AI，你只需说：“嘿，我想更多地了解史蒂芬·巴特利特（Stephen Bartlett）。把所有相关内容都告诉我。”它能让我变得高效得多。我认为它能让任何人都变得更高效，而且我认为这就是人工智能的美妙之处；从教育的角度来看，如果运用得当，它是信息的普及者。你可以接触到各地的每一座图书馆、每一本书、每一场演讲，因此只要你感兴趣，就没有你学不会的东西。
Original English
>> Um I mean, I've been in the tech business a long time. This dwarfs every everything else in aggregate. This is Yeah, this is so much bigger. With AI, you can just say, "Hey, I need to learn more about Stephen Bartlett. Tell me everything there is to know." It's able to make me a lot more productive. And I think it would make anybody more productive and I think that's the beauty of of artificial intelligence and from an educational perspective of done right, it's a democratizer of information. You have access to every library, every book, every speech everywhere and so if you're interested, there's nothing you can't learn.
>> 无论我走到世界哪里，人们都在问我这项技术是不是真的名副其实，企业主和创业者也都在问像现在这样的关头该如何应对。因为在我的生命里——我现在30……34岁了——几乎没有过如此颠覆性技术的先例。对许多人来说，这可能相当具有威胁性，因为存在这样一种过程，人们称之为“创造性破坏”，它就像是在撕碎过去的做事方式。
Original English
>> Everywhere I go around the world, people are asking me whether this is this technology is the real deal and business owners and entrepreneurs are asking like how they should be responding in a moment like this. Cuz in my life, I'm 30 34 years old now, there's almost no precedents of such a disruptive technology. It can be quite threatening to many people because it there's this sort of process of they call it creative destruction where it like rips down the old way of doing things.
>> 当然。
Original English
>> sure.
>> 而在这一过程中，它可能撕碎你的身份认同、你的文凭、你的工作。
Original English
>> And in that, it could be ripping down your identity, your degree, your job.
>> 曾经有一位名叫利昂·费斯廷格（Leon Festinger）的心理学家提出了“认知失调”这个术语，甚至光是听到这个词，就帮助我理解了自己以及自己的感受，也就是当某些事物在某种程度上威胁或违背你所了解的认知时，你所感受到的那种不适。现在全世界都在经历这种状态。
Original English
>> And so there was a psychologist called Leon Festinger that coined a term called cognitive dissonance which even hearing the term helped me understand myself and my feelings which is the the discomfort you feel when something sort of threatens or conflicts with what you know. The whole world is experiencing this right now.
>> 是的。全球范围内同时发生。
Original English
>> Yep. All at once globally.
>> 而人们所做的——有些人所做的——就是为了试图缓解这种失调，把头埋在沙子里，否认它。“不会冲着我来的。我不会有事的。”
Original English
>> And what people are doing some people are doing is they, you know, in an attempt to alleviate the dissonance, bury their heads in the sand, deny it. Not It won't come for me. I'll be fine.
>> 对。是的，那不可能发生。是的，绝不可能。对我而言，对待AI，我认为它是一个机会。凡是有变革的地方，就有机会。你知道，某些事情正在发生改变，正如你所说的认知失调，人们在回避它，根本不去面对。然后还有其他人捕捉到了它，并说：“行动起来吧。加油干。”这一直都是我的做事方式，因为你知道大多数人是不会下苦功去干的。
Original English
>> Right. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Yeah, not going to happen. Like For me with AI, I I see it as an opportunity. Wherever there's change, there's opportunity. You know, something's changing and to your point the cognitive dissonance, people are are avoiding it and not dealing with it at all. And then there's others who are picking up on it and saying, let's go. Let's go. And that's always been my approach because you know most people aren't going to do the work.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 你知道，印第安纳大学曾有一位老篮球教练鲍比·奈特（Bobby Knight）。我上大学时，他上了《60分钟》（60 Minutes）节目，说了这么一句话。我当时简直惊呆了。我想，哦[脏话]，就是这句。这就是我的座右铭。他说：“人人都有想赢的意志。但只有那些拥有准备的意志的人，才会真正获胜。”我当时就想：说得太对了。我所需要的就这一句。你知道，年轻时只要脑海里印上一句短语，我就会觉得，放手去干吧。
Original English
>> You know, there was an old basketball coach, Bobby Knight from Indiana University. And when I was in college, he was on 60 Minutes and he had this one line. And my jaw just dropped. I went, oh [ __ ] that's it. That's my line. He goes, everybody's got the will to win. But it's only those with the will to prepare that actually do win. And I'm like, bingo. That's all I needed. You know, you get one little line as a kid in your head and I'm just like, let's go.
>> 问题在于，你永远看不到人们去准备。
Original English
>> Problem is you never see people prepare.
>> 你可能看不到。对。是的，所以在准备方面没有榜样，对吧？
Original English
>> You may not see it. Right. Yeah, so there's no role model in preparation, right?
>> 能看到你从店里把软件拿走，带回公寓，因为当时既没有镜头，也没人关注。
Original English
>> gets to see you going and taking the software from the store and taking it home to the show apartment cuz there was no cameras, there was no interest at that point.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yep.
>> 所以我们几乎没有意识到那也是胜利的一部分。但他们大概看到你坐在双层巴士上，拿着奖杯，戴着面具。[笑]
Original English
>> So like we almost don't appreciate that that's part of the win. But they probably saw you on the like the double-decker bus with the trophy with the mask. [laughter]
>> 是啊，没错。
Original English
>> Yeah, right.
>> 所以，你知道，我想在这种语境下，这就是所谓成功的幻觉。
Original English
>> So, you know, this is the illusion of like success, I guess, in this context.
>> 这就是我们进行这类对话的原因。
Original English
>> That's why we have conversations like this.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 是的，把这一点传达出来。这就是你为什么能如此成功的原因。
Original English
>> Yeah, to convey that. That's why you've been so successful.
>> 呃，不，但是……但是这就是为什么我喜欢进行这些对话，因为这几乎是对Instagram叙事的一种反叛——
Original English
>> Well, no, it's it but but this is why I love having these conversations because it it's almost counter narrative to Instagram
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 听你讲述你耗费了经年累月的岁月——
Original English
>> to hear that you spent years and years
>> 实际情况甚至更糟。比如，好吧，我那个16岁的儿子——刚满17岁，对吧？快把我逼疯了，因为你知道算法是怎么运作的，对吧？你看什么，就会给你推送更多什么。我们在Instagram、TikTok、YouTube上都有各自独特的算法，对吧？没人看到的内容是一模一样的。显然他对商业很感兴趣，因为他会跑来向我展示这些快速致富的门路。你知道，做一件代发（drop ship）；做炒鞋发售（shoe drops）。甚至……有一次他们推销一种清洗枪，就是高压水枪，用来清洗人行道。我就说，别信，对吧？如果那些真是好生意，他们就不会到处告诉你，他们自己就去做了。又或者说在股市里赚大钱——股市里真正拥有优势的人绝不会把秘诀拿出来卖，他们自己拿来用。所有这些的核心在于，人们——尤其是如今身处这个只给你喂你想看的东西的社交媒体世界里——受到了误导。
Original English
>> it's even worse. Like, okay, so my 16-year-old son, 17-year-old, just turned, right? Drove me nuts because, you know how the algorithms work, right? Whatever you see, you get more of. And each of us have our own unique algorithm on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right? Nobody sees the same stuff. And obviously he was interested in business because he would come up to me and show me these get-rich-quick schemes. You know, you're going to drop ship. You're going to do, you know, shoe drops. He even There was one where they had a blaster, you know, water blaster so you can clean sidewalks. And I'm like, no, right? If those were good businesses, they wouldn't be telling you about them. They would just be doing them. Or make all this money in the stock market. Nobody who has an edge in the stock market is selling it. They're using it. And the the point of all that is people, particularly now in this social media world where you just get more of what you want, they get misled.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 第230条的保护——
Original English
>> Section 230, the protections
在互联网上，而这种保护算法的现状，我认为确实是如今阻碍年轻人成长的一大原因。因为这就是为什么你刚才说到看不到人们去做铺垫准备工作。你看不到幕后发生的事情。因为那在 Instagram 或 TikTok 上换不来更多的浏览量或互动。
Original English
on the internet, and the fact that that protects algorithms, I think really is a big part of holding kids back these days. Because that's why you talk about not seeing people do the preparatory work. You know, not seeing what happens behind the scenes. Because that doesn't get more views or more engagement on Instagram or Tik Tok.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 没人会去关注——好，马克正在看这个，正在读说明书。根本没人看，对吧？现在的社会也更加艰难。比如我们谈论社会主义或资本主义。根本没人知道那到底是什么意思。大家只是接受那些在十秒钟切片里呈现给他们的东西，而只要你看得足够多，
Original English
>> No one's going to Okay, Mark's looking at this, reading a manual. No, right? And it's tougher for society today. You know, we talk about socialism or capitalism. No one knows what it actually means. They just whatever is presented to them in, you know, a 10-second bite, and you see it enough,
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 你就会想当然地认为它一定是真的。
Original English
>> you presume it must be true.
### 长期主义与投资泡沫
>> 这就是为什么我想问长期主义，因为我试图弄明白究竟……你前面说过，“你知道大多数人都不会这么做。”而现在随着算法以及某种网络叙事的存在，我认为反其道而行之反而成了一种制胜的机会。比如面对那些快速致富的骗局，与之相反的做法就是采取长期视角，做好铺垫准备，精通一项技能，
Original English
>> That's why I think I asked about long-termism is because I'm trying to figure out what the sort of, you know, you said earlier, you said, "You know most people won't do it." And right now with algorithms and a certain sort of online narrative, that I think there becomes like a winning opportunity to do the opposite. So, get-rich-quick schemes, the opposite of that is like taking a long-term approach, doing the preparation, mastering a skill,
>> 没错。
Original English
>> Yep.
>> 并为自己设定一个十年的时间跨度，而不是想着“我明年就要发财”。
Original English
>> and setting yourself a 10-year time horizon as opposed to like I'm going to be rich next year.
>> 甚至查理·芒格 [清嗓子] 以前也总这么说，对吧？现在再也没有延迟满足了。从来没有。如果你没意识到必须先把事情做扎实，你就不会得到满足感。
Original English
>> Even Charlie Munger [clears throat] used to say it all the time, right? There's no delayed gratification anymore. Never. And if you don't realize you have to do the work first, you're not going to get the gratification.
>> 而且查理和沃伦都极度痴迷于复利。
Original English
>> And Charlie and and Warren are like obsessed with compounding.
>> 哦，对，确实如此。他们在这方面简直是王者，对，[笑] 毫无疑问。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah, for sure. And they they were the kings of it, yeah, [laughter] for sure.
>> 这也是我开始阅读他们为什么能成为如此卓越的投资者时，一直觉得不可思议的事情之一：我读到他们曾有那么几年，完全不投任何钱进去。
Original English
>> That's one of the things I I always found fascinating about them when I started reading about why they were such great investors is that I read that they'd be like a couple of years where they wouldn't invest any money at all.
>> 不投。
Original English
>> No.
>> 搞什么 [__]
Original English
>> What the [ __ ]
>> 不，我……
Original English
>> No, I
>> [笑]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 我也试着这么做。再说一次，就是尽量不要……不要一头扎进市场里。盲目冲进市场。熊市总会出现，而熊市才是赚钱的时候。在新冠疫情期间，你看，暴发时我立刻开始大举买入所有资产，大赚了一笔。你可以说从某些方面来看这不合适，对吧？但现在情况就像你看到的，这些股票和一切都在狂飙，AI 相关的概念股一飞冲天，还有这么多的债务。我的态度就是，耐心点。为了找点乐子你可以小投一点，但要保持耐心。手里留点现金，因为在某个时间点局势必定会反转。而一旦反转发生，那才是见证真正奇迹的时刻，才是赚大钱的时候。这就是延迟满足。
Original English
>> and I've tried to do the same thing. And again, just trying to not Don't just jump into the market. Jump in the market. There's always going to be a bear market, and that's where the money was made. During COVID, you know, that's I just started buying up everything when it hit, and I crushed it. You know, you can say that's wrong in some respects, right? But now it's just like you see these stocks and everything just go, you know, AI-related stuff just going to the moon and all this debt. I'm like, just be patient. You can invest a little bit for the fun of it, but be patient. Have some cash because at some point it's going to turn. And when that happens, that's when the real magic happens, when all the real money is made. The delayed gratification.
>> 你确实认为我们正处于泡沫之中，对吧？我听你谈过这个。
Original English
>> You do think we're in a bubble, don't you? I heard you talk about this.
>> 我认为我们处于泡沫之中，但跟 2000 年、2001 年当年的互联网泡沫不同。
Original English
>> I think we're in a bubble, but not the same as the internet bubble back in 2000, 2001.
>> [嗤笑]
Original English
>> [snorts]
>> 我认为现在的不同之处在于，所有的股票都成了模因股。比特币是模因股，对吧？随便看美光，看谷歌、苹果，它们都是模因股。我之所以这么说，是因为观察到股票仅仅因一点点消息就会剧烈波动。一家公司的每股收益可能就差了一分钱，或者仅仅超预期一分钱，股价就会暴跌 18%。那家公司的内在价值并没有变化 18%。只是买家和卖家仅仅根据预期的消息以极快的速度进进出出，而不是基于未来现金流的净现值之类的东西。我们把它们当成了棒球卡来交易。这本身没有任何内在价值。它仅仅是感知价值，以及你认为别人愿意花多少钱来接盘。我认为我们正因为这个确凿的原因而身处泡沫之中。至于什么会导致泡沫破裂？我一无所知。
Original English
>> I think what's different now is everything's a meme stock. Bitcoin is a meme stock, right? Pick Micron, you know, pick Google, Apple, they're meme stocks. And the reason I say that is by watching how stocks move with just a little bit of news. So, a company might miss earnings by a penny or only beat by a penny, and the stock will be down 18%. The intrinsic value of that company hasn't changed 18%. It's just that buyers and sellers move in and move out very quickly based off of anticipated um information as opposed to the net present value of the future cash flows and all that. We're trading them like baseball cards. You know, there's no intrinsic value to this. It's just perceived value and what you think somebody else will pay for it. And I think we're in a bubble for that real very reason. What causes it to burst? I have no idea.
>> 因为我们说过，这项技术——AI，是史无前例的。对像我这样的人来说，投个几块钱进去确实很诱人……
Original English
>> Because we said, you know, this technology, AI, is without precedents. Uh you know, it is quite tempting for someone like me to put, you know, put a couple of dollars into
>> 是的，当然。没错。确实如此。
Original English
>> Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
>> 因为你会觉得这或许就是终极技术了。
Original English
>> Because you think maybe this is the like the last technology.
### 人工智能的局限与人类反应
>> 对，因为即便如此，我也不认为它会是终极技术，因为总会有……总会有新的事情发生。我相信总会有人比 AI 更聪明。但看看戴尔和亚马逊。这些公司的股价曾涨到极高，在互联网泡沫破裂时又惨遭重创。亚马逊当时亏得一塌糊涂。我是说，人们过去常常数落他们，因为他们亏了太多钱。如今他们的市值已经达到数万亿美元，要是你当年一直坚守下来就好了。所以胜者必然会出现。我只是不知道究竟是哪家公司？是 Anthropic？还是 OpenAI？我不知道。
Original English
>> Right, because even, you know, I don't think it'll be the last technology cuz it'll always Something will always happen. There'll always be somebody smarter than the AI, I believe. But look at Dell and Amazon. They were companies whose stocks went from way up high, got crushed when the internet bubble burst. Amazon was losing money hand over foot. I mean, people used to give them a hard time because they were losing so much money. Now they were trillions of dollars and if you would just stuck it out with them. So there will will be winners. I just don't know which company is it? Anthropic? Is it Open AI? I don't know.
>> 你认为总会有人比 AI 更聪明？
Original English
>> You think there'll always be someone smarter than the AI?
>> 没错，毫无疑问。
Original English
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> 你这是什么意思？我从没听过这种说法。
Original English
>> What do you mean by that? I've never heard that.
>> 拿 Anthropic 的模型来说，Anthropic 的 AI 模型，或者谷歌的 Gemini，或者 OpenAI 的 ChatGPT，对吧？它一经发布，就立刻过时了。
Original English
>> Take a model from Anthropic, AI model for Anthropic or Google Gemini or ChatGPT Open AI, right? It gets released. It's immediately out of date.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> [清嗓子]
Original English
>> [clears throat]
>> 立刻过时。这场对话中的精彩之处并没有被纳入到任何地方的任何模型中。对吧？AI 并不聪明。它基本上只是懂得利用统计学来预测下一个词。它是预测性的，不是确定性的。这意味着如果你问四个不同的 AI 同一个问题，你会得到四个不同的答案。如果你对同一个 AI 把问题做极其微小的修改，微小到根本不应改变含义，它每次也会给出不同的答案。在现实世界中这可行不通。AI 不知道自己行为的后果。AI 没有内在的伦理道德。AI 无法接收视频并对其进行理解或吸收，至少现在还不行。如果我站在一个十字路口，车流来来往往，我的手机里有视频，而且有有史以来最好的模型，而我手边有一只导盲犬，
Original English
>> Immediately. The brilliance of this conversation is not incorporated in any model anywhere. Right? AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word. It's predictive. It's not deterministic. Meaning if you asked four different AIs the same question, you're going to get four different answers. If you modify a question to the same AI just marginally that shouldn't change the meaning, it'll give you a different answer every time. That doesn't work in the real world. AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions. AI doesn't have inherent ethics. AI, you know, can't take video and consume it or absorb it, at least not yet. If I'm standing at a four-way intersection and there's cars going back and forth and I have video in my phone and, you know, the best models ever and I have a seeing eye dog right here
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 我会让导盲犬带我过马路，绝不会让 AI 带我过马路。它永远会落后半拍。它总是会有延迟，而在这个世界上，眨眼之间就会发生太多的变化，因此总会有人站出来说：“呃，你知道吗？我能把这做得更好”，因为所有这些其他公司用它们的模型竞相去达到这些基准测试、超越这些基准测试，或者进行递归式自我改进，让它不断地自我训练。但它获取不到这些经验。一个坐在高脚椅上拿着吸管杯的两岁小孩就知道，如果把吸管杯推下高脚椅，妈妈就会跑过来，而且小孩知道自己会笑得合不拢嘴，对吧？AI 永远都搞不明白这一点。
Original English
>> I'm letting the seeing eye dog take me across the street before I let the AI take me across the street. It's always going to be behind. There's always going to be a latency and so many things can change in a blink of the eye in this world that there's always going to be a human who says, "Uh, you know what? I can do this better because what all these other companies are competing with their models to try to, you know, hit these benchmarks and outperforming these benchmarks or do um recursive self-improvement, so it just keeps on training itself more and more. It doesn't have access. A 2-year-old sitting on a high chair with a sippy cup knows that if it pushes the sippy cup off the high chair, Mom's going to come running and it knows it's going to crack up, right? AI is not going to figure that out ever.
>> 如果你把它画成图表，把它看作一种指数级发展的技术，这正是我一直尝试……因为人很容易倾向于把它看作一种静态。我想象着这里有一张图表，差不多是这样走的。但从我观察到的每一次新版本发布来看，这些技术似乎几乎都是这样急速拉升的。所以很难去设想，比如完全自动驾驶。就像我的特斯拉能自动驾驶，而且显然事故发生率明显低于人类驾驶。当然。如果我把它想象成指数级发展的，到了某个时间点，这玩意儿将会相当……
Original English
>> Do you know if you if you plot if you think of it as like an exponential technology, this is what I always I always try and cuz it's tempting to think of it as a sort of a static state. I'm thinking of like a graph here, like where it kind of goes like this. But these technologies from even what I've observed with every new release seem to be almost like this. So it's quite hard like even think about full self-driving. Like my Tesla drives itself and apparently the the crash rate is significantly lower than if a human was driving. Of course. If I imagine it as an exponential, at some point this shit's going to be pretty
>> 除非……
Original English
>> Except
>> 对。除非有……就像你看到对数据中心的抗议一样。
Original English
>> Yeah. Except there just like you see the protest about data centers.
>> 确实。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 当我们谈到《人为什么造反》（Why Men Rebel）时，那是我高中之后就没再想过的一本书，对吧？人们是会反抗的。人们会建立自己的社区，在其中……如果这项技术过于具有统治力，就会有人说：“我不希望它出现在我的生活中。”会有完全没有技术的公社和基布兹。还有一种针对 AI 的对抗性动作，比如在完全自动驾驶中，存在某些东西，当它看到时，
Original English
>> When we talked about why men rebel, a book I haven't thought about since high school, right? People are going to rebel. People are going to create their own communities where there is if it's that dominant, there'll be people say, "I don't want that in my life." There'll be communes and kibbutzes where there's no technology. There There's something called adversarial um actions for AI where like with full self-driving, there's certain things that when it sees it,
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> [清嗓子]
Original English
>> [clears throat]
>> 它会做出错误的反应。而一旦你知道如何做到这一点，能够导致 AI 去做它不想做的事，或者你没预料到的事，就会有人一直去这么干。而且 [清嗓子] 你也会看到，当我代表 Cost Plus Drugs 去和医院以及研究人员交流时，对吧？我告诉他们的是，如果你把什么都公开发表，或者把什么都拿去申请专利，那你就是疯了，因为那立刻就会被每一个模型获取
Original English
>> it reacts in the wrong way. And once you know how to do that and you can cause AI to do things that it doesn't want to do or you don't expect it to do, then you're going to get people who do that all the time. And you're [clears throat] also seeing it, when I go and talk to um hospitals and researchers for cost plus drugs, right? What I tell them is you're crazy if you publish everything or if you try to patent everything cuz it's immediately available to every model
并且你会失去对知识产权的控制。你开始看到越来越多的人不再去申请专利，而是将其作为商业秘密。不再是公开发表，而是“我要把它放进我的模型里，或者我卖给你”。所以就出现了这种分化，每个模型之间——Gemini 训练所用的数据与 ChatGPT、Claude、Grok 等等都不一样。如果它们给出的答案全都不一样，在很多方面就有点违背初衷了。而且如果它们无法处理实时视频，或者总是存在延迟。听着，我说这些并不是说 AI 毫无用处。不，恰恰相反。AI 令人难以置信。但就像身边坐着四个最聪明的人一样，他们不会全都给你相同的答案，你必须具备提出正确问题的技能。
Original English
and you lose control of your intellectual property. And you're starting to see more and more and more people instead of patenting it, it's a trade secret. Instead of publishing it, I'll put it in my model or I'll sell it to you. And so you get this bifurcation um with each model where Gemini is not trained on the same data as ChatGPT, as Claude, as Grok, etc. And if they're all giving you different answers, kind of defeats the purpose in a lot of respects. And if they can't deal with live video or they're always have latency. And look, when I say this, I'm not saying AI is useless. No, exact opposite. AI is incredible. But like having four of the smartest people next to you, they're not all going to give you the same answer and you have to have the skill set to be able to ask the right question.
Original English
>> Mhm.
Original English
>> And ask the right question of multiple sources and be able to take the output from each of them, the responses from each of them, and come to a conclusion that you think is in your best interest or whatever interest that is.
Original English
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What do you make of all these AI CEOs saying that it's going to transform how we work, and there's not really going to be any jobs left, and
Original English
>> Well, it will transform how we work, but I think there'll be creative destruction like you You know, I went to school at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, and right by Bloomington is Terre Haute, Indiana. Terre Haute, Indiana used to be the location for RCA records, which then became CDs, right? And then they made DVDs. You probably don't even remember that [ __ ] right?
Original English
>> I remember [clears throat] CDs and DVDs, but cassettes are
Original English
Yeah.
Original English
>> gone, right? And but it's not like there aren't people making money on music.
Original English
>> Mhm.
Original English
>> And so there will be creative destruction. There will be new things that pop up that leverages new technology that create different kinds of jobs. Is the path going to be painful for people? Yeah, just like the people in Terre Haute, Indiana. It's going to be painful.
Original English
>> Cuz this technology feels so different because um when you start to think about how much of our lives run both on the internet, but just based on intelligence. Like driving is not something I considered would be impacted by AI, for example. And then now I'm experie- you know, I heard you talking about your use of AI agents, but I've got I know 25 AI agents on my phone now going through all of my stuff. It's crazy. It's [laughter] amazing. It's amazing. But you go, "Fuck. Oh my god. Like
Original English
>> But it's not smart.
I hadn't read a non-fiction book in 25 years. And the only reason I had the time to do it was I have these agents. All the [ __ ] that I had on my to-do list that I would have to go search for this, read that, do this.
Boom. My agents, just like I'm sure you use it for the same thing, right? All the tedious [ __ ] work that you didn't want to do or always couldn't get to or thought you had to hire somebody for, now you have an agent that does it. And your biggest decision, do you use Grokbot? Do you use, you know, dot? Do you use, you know, co-work? And then you try them all and you see they all give you a different answer. And then you have to use your brain again.
Original English
>> But you said that you would have otherwise hired people to do some of those things, right?
Original English
>> I would have Yes, that's true. But now I can do get more done, just like you can get more done. And when you get more done using your agents, you have better opportunities to use what you know to create other things. So I might have brought in an intern and paid them $15 an hour or $20 an hour, whatever it was. Now, maybe it creates a new business idea. And with that new business idea, I need to hire people to do that. Because
So, I'll give you a perfect example of what I use agents for. For Cost Plus Drugs.com, I always, you know, I'm trying to break the healthcare industry. And there's these big conglomerates who I think are the real problem. And now I have an agent, every time they get sued, it comes to me and tells me. Every time there's a bid that they're bidding on, right? It comes and the agents tell me, and I can use the agent to create an email to send to the Open Records Act to get me copies of all those contracts. [ __ ] I could never have imagined doing before unless I hired somebody, but that meant I had to take the time to hire them and train them and manage them, so it never got done.
Original English
>> Mhm. [clears throat]
Original English
>> Now it gets done, and now I have other types of people that I hired to do it to different things that are at a completely different level. And it takes less of my time to do all of that.
Original English
>> And for your son, your son's 16?
Original English
>> 17, just turned 17.
Original English
>> 17. When he's on When he's saying, "Dad, you know, you know a lot about the future. You've been able to predict the future several times. So, what should I be focused on, Dad?"
Original English
>> He's 17. My kids are 17, 20, and 23. The one thing they never say is, "Dad, you know a lot about fill in the blank." Never. Never ever. My oldest daughter, though, when she was at um college, I told her she had to learn how to do agents. And she was like, "Yeah, whatever, whatever." And then I went and watched one of her presentations, and she was like, "Yeah, I got an agent to do this. [laughter] I got an agent to do that." I was like, proud papa, right?
But yeah, but I tell them, "You have to learn this stuff because if you don't, the person who does is going to be so much more productive than you are. If you have access to a smartphone or a PC or laptop at the library that has access to Claude, Gemini, etc.,
Original English
>> [gasps]
Original English
>> there's no question you can't ask.
Original English
>> Does hard work matter?
Original English
>> Yes, of course. You got to take the time to ask the question. You have to take the time to consume the information it gives you and get and learn how to ask better and better questions to get better at it. But people always talk about mentors and
Original English
having access to a network. I never had any of that [ __ ] right? I just sat and learned and read and did it by reading. Now, I don't go grab a book, right? I just go right to, you know, Clyde or co-work and I'm like, find all about this and tell me what Warren Buffett thought about that. It's insane.
### 信息平权下的竞争优势
>> 在每个人都拥有相同信息的世界里，优势变成了什么？
Original English
>> What does the edge become in such a world where everybody has the same information?
>> 因为你必须知道如何把你读到或看到的东西整合起来，应用到你想达成的目标上。
因为这很酷，比如我可以吩咐说，给我写一份针对这个业务的商业计划书，它就会把所有的智能体造出来，把机器人造出来，把所有那些东西都搞定。但我必须成为那个去拍板说“这里对、这里错、这里对”的人。然后我还得是那个走出去把它卖掉的人，或者在发展到那个阶段时，去教会那些智能体如何去销售，从而让这项业务真正运转起来。
AI并不聪明，它只是在一刻不停地死磕、生磨。
当你听到关于风险特征、那些末日论者的说法时，对吧？当我跟安全界的人交谈时，我会问一个非常具体的问题：我们听到了这些关于AI入侵这里、或者搞定那里的故事，它们有发明出任何新东西吗？它们是为了黑进这个系统、还是为了窃取这些数据，想出了一种全新的方法吗？
没有。
它们什么新名堂也没搞。它们做的事情，无非是拿到了每个安全人员手上都有的那份相同清单；而因为你能创建无限数量的智能体去把清单梳理一遍，把每一种可能的组合都试一次，这完全是暴力破解。AI拥有巨大优势的地方，就在于用暴力破解的方式去处理事情。因为你要知道，我们过去做安全一直都是试图揪出所有的问题，心里清楚除非是DDoS攻击，否则没人有资源来进行彻底的暴力破解，拥有比我们还多的资源。
Original English
>> Because you've got to know how to take what you've read or seen and integrate it and apply it to what you're trying to accomplish.
Because it's cool, like I can say, write me a business plan for this business and it'll create all the agents, it'll create the bots, it'll do all that stuff. But I've got to be the one to say, this is right, this is wrong, this is right. And then I've got to be the one that goes out and sells it or teaches the agents how to sell when we get to that point so that the business could actually work. AI is not smart. It just grinds and grinds and grinds. When you hear about the risk profile, the doomers, right? When you When I talk to security people, I ask this very specific question. We're hearing these stories about AI breaking in here or doing that. Did they invent anything? Did they come up with a new approach for hacking into this system or for stealing this data?
No.
They didn't do anything new. What they did was get the same list that every security person has and because you can create an unlimited number of agents to go through and try it in every possible combination, it's all brute force. Where AI has a huge advantage is in doing brute force approaches to things because, you know, we'd always done security by trying to catch all the problems, knowing that, you know, unless it's a DDoS attack, right? Nobody has the the resources to do a full brute force to have more resources than we do.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 那些日子一去不复返了，但我们没有谈论的是在防御端运用这同样的暴力破解。也就是说，你完全可以主动出击，找到自己身上的所有漏洞，积极主动地去攻击那些坏人。所以，我觉得我根本不是个末日论者。确实会有烂事发生的情况，但相比于AI将要做什么，我更害怕的是人们因为对AI的担忧和缺乏理解而做出的事情。
Original English
>> Those days are gone, but what we don't talk about is using that same brute force on the defense side. That you can go out there and find all the holes in yourself and go be proactive to attack the bad guys. So, I don't think I'm not a doomer at all. There'll be instances of [ __ ] that happens, but I'm more afraid of what people do because of their concerns and lack of understanding of AI than I am about what AI will do.
### 何为真正的“聪明”
>> AI并不聪明。
Original English
>> AI is not smart.
>> 并不。即便我们称它为智能。就像我们——还记得我们是怎么讨论书呆子式聪明的吗？
Original English
>> No. Even we call it intelligent. Like we we Remember how we talked about book smart?
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 一个人能读完一本书并记住里面的内容，他们算是书呆子式的聪明，考试能拿A，因为他们死记硬背了一切，而且他们——那就是AI。
Original English
>> Somebody who can read a book, remember what's in it, they're book smart, get A's on tests cuz they memorize everything and they That's AI.
>> 那么，我想明确一下你对聪明的定义到底是什么。
Original English
>> So, what is what is I want to be clear on your definition of smart.
>> 聪明是指能够汇聚信息和输入项。
Original English
>> Smart is being able to aggregate information and inputs.
>> 没错。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 聪明是指能够知道去哪里寻找输入项，并且能够获取它们，然后将它们汇总起来解决一个问题。
Original English
>> Smart is being able to know where to look for the inputs and being able to take them and then aggregate them to solve a problem.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 并且还要能识别出你正试图解决的问题是什么。
AI做不到这一点。而且还有一点，你必须处于实时状态中。我们现在正在进行这场对话。我之前并不知道你要问什么问题，对吧？完全是随机应变，对吧？AI缺失了所有这些。
Original English
>> And also being able to identify the problem you're trying to solve. AI doesn't do that. And again, you have to be in the real time. We're having this conversation. I didn't know what questions you were going to ask, right? It's just whatever, right? AI is missing all that.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 根本没有办法把人类能接触到的一切都喂给AI。就像我们谈到替代医生。好，如果我是个医生，史蒂文坐在那儿——这能加快速度，我可以查阅每一份研究报告，不管是什么，每一篇文章。然后史蒂文吐了我一身。AI在这方面帮不了我，对吧？“史蒂文，怎么了？”就像，我没法对AI说“史蒂文这是怎么了”。我必须运用自己的感官去观察，结合我的经验，并且足够聪明地问出正确的问题。
Original English
>> There's no way to feed AI everything that humans have access to. Like we talked about replacing doctors. Okay, if I'm a doctor and Steven's there This speeds it up. I have access to every research report, whatever it may be, article. And then Steven pukes all over me. AI can't help me with that, right? Steven, what's wrong? It's like I can't say to the AI what's wrong with Steven. I have to use my senses, look, you know, take my experience, and be smart enough to ask the right question.
>> 有没有可能发生某种事情，改变你在这个观点上的想法？不管是他们大家都在谈论的、让它开始自我改进的递归自我改进，还是某种——你需要看到什么样的证据，才会承认说：“你知道吗？我认为AI是聪明的。”？
Original English
>> Is there a probability that something could happen that changes your mind on this point? It would whether it's the recursive self-improvement that they they all talk about where it starts improving itself or some kind What would evidence would you need to see to go, "You know what? I think AI is smart."
>> 我觉得，得是你拿一个极低资源的AI，而它能凭借极少的资源去提问并解决问题。
我的意思是，你可以让一个来自世界上环境最差角落的12岁小孩表现得绝顶聪明。没有获取资源的途径，全凭观察和自己琢磨，寻找信息来源的渠道。现在说到AI，更多的GPU、更大的算力、更好的算法，无论是否属于教自己尝试变得更强的那种递归自我改进，我认为我们都还没达到能用零资源做到这一点的程度。
Original English
>> I think where you take a minimal resource AI and it can ask and solve questions with minimal resources. Meaning, you can have a 12-year-old kid who comes from the worst part of the world be brilliant. No access to resources, sees and figures things out, finds places of sources of information. Now, when you talk about AI, more GPUs, more power, better algorithms, and whether it's recursive self-improvement or not where it teaches itself to try to get better, I don't think we reached that point where you can do it with no resources.
>> 你觉得像埃隆这样的人——你知道的，谈论基本上工作将成为一种选择，这项技术将会有多聪明，以及将被AI赋能的人形机器人——那些预测是被夸大了吗？
Original English
>> Do you think the like people like Elon who you know, talk about how they're basically working is going to become a choice and um how smart this technology is going to be and the humanoid robots that are going to be empowered by AI and are those forecasts overblown?
>> 埃隆，埃隆很了不起。他是个才华横溢的企业家，别误会我的意思，他绝对是我们这辈子见过的最优秀的企业家。但他是个销售型的人。你知道的，为了做他想做的所有事情，他必须筹集大笔资金，而且他很擅长这个。所以，我丝毫不嫉恨埃隆任何东西，哪怕他在Twitter或者X上对我冷嘲热讽，我也立刻毫不客气地怼回去。但我觉得他必须推销他需要推销的东西，我认为这才是埃隆做事的决定性因素。
Original English
>> Elon Elon's amazing. He's a brilliant entrepreneur, don't get me wrong. He's the best entrepreneur of our lifetimes for sure. But he's a sales guy. You know, and he has to raise a lot of money for all the things he likes to do, and he's good at that. And so, I don't begrudge Elon anything even though he gives me [ __ ] on Twitter or X, and I give him [ __ ] right back. But I think he's got to sell what he's got to sell, and I think that carries the day for Elon.
>> 嗯。噢，是的。这很有意思，因为我跟那么多来自那个领域形形色色的人坐在一起聊过——AI安全专家，然后还有一些前沿实验室的团队成员、首席执行官或者前员工。而极具戏剧性的一点是，我听到的说法五花八门。
Original English
>> Mhm. Oh, yeah. I'm It's funny cuz I sit with so many different people from that the world of AI safety experts and then some of the frontier labs, you know, team members or CEOs or ex-employees. And one of the remarkable things is I hear everything.
>> 没错，完全没有一个统一的基调，[笑] 对吧？没有哪两个人给你的回答是一样的。这就能说明一切了，对吧？
Original English
>> Yeah, there's no one continuous theme, [laughter] right? No no no two people give you the same answer. That tells you all you need to know, right?
>> 是的，有这个可能。
Original English
>> Yeah, it's it's possible.
>> 因为这本该是显而易见的。如果它真的具有如此压倒性的优势，并且存在一个大家都明白的、我们必将抵达的终点，那它对所有人来说都会是显而易见的，我们大家也都能看得到。
话又说回来，你必须调动比去年之前整个人类历史上所拥有的更多的算力和GPU。那不叫智能。你之所以非得配备这一切，是有原因的。你知道的，你必须——这纯粹就是暴力破解。
Original English
>> Cuz it should be obvious. If it was so dominant and there was a destination that everybody understood is where we would get to, it would be obvious to everybody and we all would see it. Again, you have to have more power and more GPUs than the history of power and GPUs prior to last year. That's not intelligence. There's a reason why you have to have all that. You know, you have to It's just brute force.
### 计算史的对照与未来局限
>> 计算机当初起步的时候也有点像那样，不是吗？
Original English
>> Computers started a bit like that, didn't they?
>> 呃，不，完全相反。
Original English
>> Um no, it's the exact opposite.
>> 真的吗？它们起步时……
Original English
>> Really? They started
>> 是的，因为它们起步时的性能微乎其微。所以当时得靠绝顶的才华，在穿孔卡片上用Fortran语言编程，塞进那个算力还不如你手机百分之一的庞大主机里。所以它们是从微弱的算力起步的，聪明的人摸索出了如何进行编码。然后你迎来了摩尔定律，我们看到了芯片，你知道的，硅片以及所有这些东西，它就变得越来越快、越来越快了。
也许这就是我在这件事上抱有成见的原因，对吧？因为我见证过计算机每分、每天、每年都在渐进式地加速、加速、再加速，以及它们所创造的产出和能力。
Original English
>> Yeah, cuz they were minimally capable. And so it took brilliance to program on Fortran on cards and put them into a this huge mainframe that didn't have a hundredth of the power of your phone. So they start off with minimal power and smart people figured out how to encode them. And then you got Moore's law and we saw chips, you know, silicon and all this stuff and it just got, you know, faster faster and faster. Maybe that's why I'm prejudiced in this, right? Because I've seen computers get incrementally faster faster faster by the minute, day, and year and the output and the capabilities that they create.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 所以也许这制约了我，对吧？我的经验制约了我，但我认为——我认为这预示着接下来会发生什么。技术的发展几乎一直都是如此。也就是说，它毫无疑问会变得更加强大；毫无疑问它会变得更能干。但只要存在延迟，人就拥有优势。
Original English
>> And so maybe that holds me back, right? My experience holds me back, but I think it I think it's indicative of what comes next. Pretty much all the time with technology. That it's going to get more powerful, for sure. It's going to get more capable, for sure. But as long as there's latency, people have the edge.
>> 它会变得越来越便宜。
Original English
>> It's going to get cheaper.
>> 是的，它肯定会变得更便宜。它现在已经比两周前便宜很多了。它之所以变得越来越便宜，是因为那些公司不断地借钱、投入更多的钱去获取更多的电力，好为所有的AI提供动力。
Original English
>> Yeah, it'll get cheaper, for sure. It already is a lot cheaper than it was 2 weeks ago. It's getting cheaper because those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money to get more power in order to power all of the AI.
>> 我觉得从你口中听到这些挺令人惊讶的，因为你可是在我们生活在一个指数级时代的关口创立了broadcast.com的人。
Original English
>> I think this is surprising to hear from you because you're someone who built broadcast.com at a moment when we were living in an like an exponential era.
>> 是的，模拟时代，没错。
Original English
>> Yeah, an analog era, yeah.
>> 没错。而且你知道的，互联网当时——我的意思是，人们过去对互联网是持怀疑态度的。
Original English
>> Yeah. And it you know, the internet was I mean people were skeptical about the internet.
>> 是的，当时人们——当我以为我们要去做流媒体或者——你知道的，我们当时管它叫网络广播时，他们都觉得：“你是个白痴。我直接打开电视不就行了。你是个白痴，我直接打开收音机不就行了。”
我只是……我并不是AI的反对者。我是现存最大的AI支持者，但为了真正获得它的好处，你必须——你知道的，对此保持坦诚。就像我曾经说过，这些数据中心很多最终都会变成匹克球场，对吧？这是一种比喻，不是说它们真的会在字面意义上变成匹克球场。因为AI要想达到顶峰……
Original English
>> Yeah, people when I when I thought we were going to stream or you know, netcast is what we called it, they were like, "You're an idiot. I'll just turn on the TV. You're an idiot. I'll just turn on the radio." I just I'm not a naysayer on AI. I am the biggest proponent of AI that there is, but in order to to really get the benefit, you have to be, you know, honest about it. Like I said one time that a lot of these data centers will turn into pickleball courts courts, right? As a metaphor, not that literally they'd be pickleball courts. Because in order for AI to reach the pinnacle
### 债务泡沫与经济周期
大家都想实现这一点，你就必须用更少的功耗去做更多的事，而不是用更多的功耗去做更多的事。因为那样的话，你就会遇到我们现在正面临的限制。我们在美利坚合众国真的可能会陷入一场债务泡沫，因为所有这些超大规模云服务商（hyperscalers）借了太多的债。
Original English
that everybody wants to reach it, you have to have less power doing more, not more power doing more. Because then you run into constraints like we're running into right now. We literally could get into a a debt bubble in the United States of America because there's so much debt being taken out by all these, you know, hyperscalers.
>> 你觉得这有可能发生吗？
Original English
>> You think that's possible?
>> 当然有可能，因为我们美国的赤字在不断增加，这意味着我们必须借更多的钱，而这些超大规模云服务商借的钱比他们赚的还要多，所以他们借得更多，贷款机构在竞争这笔业务，或者他们也在争取让贷款机构借钱给他们。利率还在不断攀升。我是说，如果你背着400亿美元的债务，而你的利率还在不断上涨，到某个时候你就再也筹不到钱了。
Original English
>> Yeah, of course it is cuz our deficit keeps on rising in the United States, which means we have to borrow more money, and the hyperscalers are are borrowing more than they're making, and so they're borrowing more and that lenders are competing for that business or they're competing to get lenders to lend to them. Rates keep on going up. I mean, if you've got a 40 billion dollar debt and your interest rates keeps on going up, at some point you can't raise money anymore.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 现在大家心里都在祈祷。我是英伟达和黄仁勋的忠实粉丝，但他们基本上是在补贴半个行业，因为他们有现金可以这么做。而且你看到——那是 Goo——不，我觉得是 Meta，他们借的债超过了自身现金流的好几倍。我是说，如果这是绝顶聪明之举，那情况本该反过来才对，对吧？在某个时候，它或许能达到那个状态，但在此之前，我们处于这种私人信贷债务环境之中，存在巨大的不确定性，很多事情都可能出差错。我是说，如果你读过雷·达利奥（Ray Dalio）写的观点，雷就说过，我们已经越过了那条曲线，对吧？我们已经过了那个节点，可能沦为一个深陷债务泥潭的社会，我们的货币在某个时候会变得一文不值。
Original English
>> There's a lot of praying going on right now. I'm a huge fan of Nvidia and Jensen Huang, but they're basically subsidizing half the industry cuz they have the cash to do it. And you've got Was it Goo No, Meta I think it is borrowing more than they have in cash flow by a factor of I mean, if it were the brilliance of brilliant, it should be the opposite, right? And at some point it may get there, but until then, we're in this private credit debt environment where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of things can go wrong. I mean, if you read what Ray Dalio says, you know, Ray says, we've already crossed the the curve, right? We're already past that point where we could be a debt-laden society where our currency becomes, you know, worthless at some point.
>> 就下一场大危机的征兆或标志而言，我们目前处于这个过程的什么位置？
Original English
>> Where are we in this at the moment in terms of the symptoms or markers of the next big
>> 那些处在这一带的国家，美国、英国以及其他一些国家，正处于那个周期的后半段，也就是出现我们一直在讨论的那些现象的时候：过度负债、进一步的过度负债、权力的丧失。
Original English
>> Well, countries where over in this vicinity over here, the US, the UK, number of other countries are later in that cycle when there's the loss of the things that we've been talking about, over-indebtedness, more over-indebtedness, the loss of power.
>> 也就是衰退过程中的崩溃期。
Original English
>> So, in the collapse period of the decline.
>> 我会把那称为衰退。
Original English
>> And I'll call that the the decline.
>> 很难想象美国会落到这个地步，尤其是对于34岁的人来说，因为你所见到的从来都是美国的称霸。
Original English
>> It's hard to imagine that for America, especially when you're 34 years old cuz you've just always seen the dominance of America.
>> 没错。作为一个美国人，确实很难想象，你会认为我们总能找到解决办法的。
Original English
>> Right. No, as an American, it's it's hard to imagine and you think we'll figure it out.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 我们总会解决的。我也足够乐观，认为我们做得到，但伴随这个过程的将是痛苦。我们的政客很擅长喊口号，但在真正办事方面却非常糟糕。我认为在这个国家以及所有国家，这都会是一段艰难的时期。
Original English
>> We'll always figure it out. And I'm optimistic enough to think that we will, but there will be pain associated with that. Our politicians are great at sloganering. They're really bad at actually doing things. And I think that's going to be tough in this country and all countries.
>> 我觉得很多人认为人工智能也是摆脱债务的救生艇，因为如果你听说过这个富足时代……
Original English
>> I think a lot of people think AI is the liferaft out of the debt as well because if you hear this age of abundance
>> 这是一场竞赛。这是一场竞赛，对吧？如果利率达到——比如现在10年期国债收益率大概是5.2%——贷款机构还会借钱给人工智能公司吗？如果涨到6%、8%、10%，总有些东西得垮掉。在目前的利率水平下，我们这个国家每年要支付1万亿美元的利息。1万亿。如果利率继续走高，我们必须借的钱继续增加，然后所有这些超大规模云服务商都在争抢这笔资金，必然有某些东西会被挤出。我不知道哪个或什么会被挤出，我不是那种水平的金融专家，算不出这个，但总有些东西会撑不住。
Original English
>> It's a race. It's a race, right? Will lenders lend to AI companies if interest rates hit, you know, now the 10-year's like 5.2%? If it goes to 6%, 8%, 10%, something's got to give. And right now at current interest rates, we're paying a trillion dollars in interest every year in this country. A trillion. And if the interest rates keep on going up and what we have to borrow keeps on going up, and then you've got all these hyperscalers competing to get access to that money, something gets crowded out. I don't know which or what. I'm not enough of a financial expert to do that, but something's going to give.
### 防守策略与人际技能
>> 你有没有采取什么防守策略以防万一？
Original English
>> Are you playing defense in any way just in case?
>> 有的。有的。
Original English
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> 那具体是什么样的？
Original English
>> What does that look like?
>> 我在这个国家有钱，在那个国家也有钱，[笑声] 你懂的，呃……而且我投的钱远没有以前那么多了。就像沃伦·巴菲特（Warren Buffett）老一套的做法。事情发生时，我会静观其变。我可能会损失一点点，因为我没有像本该做的那样做足防范，但我想留出一些时间，看看局势如何发展。
Original English
>> I've got money in this country and that country, [laughter] you know, um and I I haven't invested nearly as much. It's the old Warren Buffett thing. I'll wait and see as things happen. I might lose a little bit because I'm I'm not as protected as I should have been, but I want to give it some time to see how things play out.
>> 我经常会想，对于现在正在收听的普通人来说，当他们听到这帮旧金山的大CEO们大谈特谈人工智能，听到这种人工智能的地缘政治竞赛时，能给他们什么建议？他们会想：我能做什么？我应该做什么？我觉得脑海中浮现的一个建议，正是你刚才提到的：在这些时刻，你真正能做的其实就是把某件事做好。归根结底，你的技能和你的知识，似乎就是谁也无法夺走的那只水桶。
Original English
>> I am I often wonder for the average person that's listening now, like what is the advice for them when they hear about this AI stuff going on with all these big San Francisco CEOs and this geopolitical race of AI? They're thinking like what can I like what should I be doing? And I think some of the advice that springs to mind is what you said earlier on about actually what what you can do in these moments is like get good at something. That feels like the the the the bucket that nobody can sort of unfill is like your skills and your knowledge at the end of the day.
>> 百分之百。是的，你说得完全对，而且总结得很到位。因为除此以外你还能做什么呢？
Original English
>> 100%. Yeah, you're exactly right and you said it well. Because what else you going to do?
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 你又有什么理由放弃呢？
Original English
>> And why would you give up?
>> 我还在大量思考的另一件事是人际交往技能。在这样一个世界里，也许我的智能体会替我操作电脑，但我依然必须去进行人际互动……
Original English
>> And the other thing I think a lot about is people skills. In a world where, you know, maybe my agent's going to run my computer for me, but I'm still going to have to interact
>> 变得更有价值了，不是吗？
Original English
>> more valuable, doesn't it?
>> 没错，正是如此。
Original English
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> 是的。对，我是说，我做过的一些投资，一些较小规模的投资，比如一家做无声迪斯科（silent disco）的公司，在布伦特伍德（Brentwood），全都是面对面的交流。这也是体育领域的估值上升如此之多的部分原因。他们认为这是免疫于人工智能的，但它也有别的问题。
Original English
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, some of the investments I've made, smaller investments are like a company that does silent discos, you know, and and Brentwood and and it's face-to-face communications. And that's part of the reason why you've seen sports valuations go up so much. They think that it's AI-proof, but they it has other issues.
### 不安全感与内在驱动力
>> 在过去十年里，我一直在创立公司和投资公司，而围绕营销预算的讨论往往遵循着一模一样的模式。预算获得了批准，但随后却见不到成效。大多数时候，广告创意和提供的方案都没问题。问题出在受众身上。广告触达的人群根本永远不会购买或推荐，他们也根本没有任何拍板做决定的权力。这就是为什么会有那么多预算被白白浪费。
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下方应该有一个按钮。如果上面写着“已订阅”，那你就已经订阅了。如果写着“订阅”，那就意味着你还没有订阅。如果你还没有订阅，能不能帮我们一个忙，点击那个按钮？这对节目的帮助超乎你的想象。根据算法显示，你是我们节目的观众，但你还没有点击那个按钮。非常感谢。
你早些时候提到过牙齿被打掉的事。
Original English
>> I've spent the last decade building and investing in companies and so often the conversation around marketing budgets follows the exact same pattern. The budget gets approved, but then the results don't come back. And most of the time, the creative pitch and the offer is fine. The problem lies with the audience. Ads reach people who will never buy or refer, nor do they have the power to sign off anything at all. And this is why so much budget gets wasted. LinkedIn Ads, a sponsor of this podcast, lets you reach them specifically by job title, seniority, company size, industry, the skills that they have, and much more. You're no longer hoping your ad reaches the right person. Instead, you're defining a exactly who sees it. And LinkedIn Ads drives the highest B2B return on ad spend across all major ad networks. Give them a try at linkedin.com/diary. And if you spend $250 on your first campaign, you'll get a $250 credit for your next one just by going to linkedin.com/diary. Keep this to yourself. Terms and conditions apply. There should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribe, you're already subscribed. If it says subscribe, but that means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button. It helps to show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button. Thank you so much. You mentioned earlier on having your teeth knocked out.
>> 嗯哼。
Original English
>> Uh-huh.
>> 你当时似乎在暗示，这件事让你成了一个有点缺乏安全感的年轻人。
Original English
>> And you were sort of alluding to the fact that this made you an a little bit of an insecure young man.
>> 是的。在某种程度上是这样。
Original English
>> Yeah. To some degree.
>> 百分之百是。
Original English
>> 100% yeah.
>> 嗯，很多时候，当我们——你知道，当我采访像你这样的人时，观众和我都会认为你是非常自觉、清醒地受某种目标驱动的。但随着我采访的人越来越多，有时候你会发现，他们有时其实是有点被牵引着走的……
Original English
>> Um often times when we, you know, I interview someone like yourself, the audience and me will assume that you are very intentionally, consciously driven. But the more I've interviewed people, sometimes you figure out that sometimes they're a little bit dragged
>> 哦，是的。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah.
>> 被他们的不安全感所牵引。而且……
Original English
>> by their insecurities. And
>> 哦，是的，百分之百是对的。我当时是个胖小孩，对吧？我会做尽一切可能的事——比如，我真真切切穿着一件印着 [__] 的衬衫去上学。我妈妈当时说：“你去了二十分钟就得被停学。”我有一条牛仔裤，我从裤脚一直撕到髋部，然后用订书机订在一起，纯粹就是为了引人注目、博取眼球，因为我……比如，在我成名之后，有人去问我高中的同龄人，就是我班上的那些孩子，他们根本不知道我是谁。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah, 100% right. I was the fat kid, right? And I would do anything I could like I literally wore a shirt to school that said [ __ ] My mom's like, "You're going to get suspended." 20 minutes after I got there. I had a pair of jeans that I ripped up from the bottom all the way up to my hip, and then I stapled it together just to stand out and get attention cuz I like like after I became famous, people went back to my high school peers, you know, kids in my class, they had no idea who I was.
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 我的朋友们知道，对吧？和我亲近的人知道，但其他人完全不知道。我还看到过一件事，有人从我高中年鉴里挑了一张照片，画了个圈说那就是我。那根本就不是我。所以，是的，我根本不是一个出众的人，也完全没被认为是那种最有可能成功的人。
Original English
>> My friends did, right? The people I was close to, but nobody. And I saw something where somebody took one of the pictures from my high school yearbook and they circled it as being me. It wasn't me. So, yeah, I was not somebody who stood out or was considered to be, you know, most likely to be successful at all.
>> 那种羞耻感和不安全感是你动力的一部分吗？
Original English
>> Was that sort of shame and insecurity part of your drive?
>> 哦，是的，绝对是。纯粹就是为了证明别人是错的。这也是我去印第安纳大学（Indiana）的原因之一。我记得到了印第安纳大学时对自己说：看，这是我重新开始的机会。我可以成为任何我想成为的人，那就照着那个样子去表现。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah, for sure. Just to prove people wrong. That's one of the reasons I went to Indiana. And I remember getting to IU and saying, you know, here's my chance for a fresh start. I get to be whoever I want to be, act like it.
>> 你当时有没有觉得，获得成功或者成名，能够解决那种不安全感，解决那种在某种层面上否定你自身价值的东西？
Original English
>> Did you think becoming successful and or famous would fix the in the insecurity, the thing that was invalidating you at some level?
>> 我——我没觉得——不，我没觉得……
Original English
>> I I didn't think No, I didn't think
### 掌控时间与财富的心态
那么直接。我并没有，你知道，非此即彼。我只是觉得自己讨厌身无分文。
Original English
about it that directly. I didn't you know, one or the other. I just thought I hated being broke.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 你知道，[清嗓子] 我想掌控自己的命运。那是件大事。而且我想能够掌控自己的时间。就像我卖掉 MicroSolutions 之后，并没有马上说我要拿着这笔钱去投资，我要去外面尽可能多地赚钱。我做的恰恰相反。我买了美国航空的终身机票通行证。
Original English
>> You [clears throat] know, I wanted to control my own destiny. That was a big thing. And I wanted to be able to control my own time. Like after I sold MicroSolutions, I didn't immediately say I'm going to take this money, invest it, and I'm going to go out there and make as much money as I can. I did the exact opposite. I bought a lifetime pass on American Airlines.
>> 我听说过这个。
Original English
>> I heard about this.
>> 我的使命就是走出去，在尽可能多的国家，和尽可能多的人一起尽情狂欢，去享受生活。就像我现在戴着一块 iWatch，是因为那些健康数据。而在我卖掉 MicroSolutions 那天，我摘下了手表，并说：“我再也不戴手表了，因为戴手表意味着我是在按别人的时间工作。”而不戴手表、获得成功之后，时间就是属于我自己的了。这也是为什么我不盛装打扮，为什么我不打领带。就像派头不是看你穿什么，派头是能够对别人的穿着发号施令，你懂吗？我只是想掌控自己的命运和时间。
Original English
>> And my mission was to go out there and get as [ __ ] up as possible with as many people as possible in as many countries as possible and just to enjoy like I have an iWatch now cuz all the data. And the day I sold MicroSolutions, I took off my watch and I said, "I'm never going to wear a watch again because that means I'm working on somebody else's time." When by not having a watch, by being successful, it's my time. Why I don't get dressed up, why I I won't wear a tie. It's like swag isn't how you dress. Swag is being able to tell somebody else how they dress, you know? And I just wanted to control my own destiny and my own time.
>> 你年纪轻轻通过卖掉 MicroSolutions 赚了几百万美元。呃，接着你在 30 岁出头创办了 broadcast.com 公司。
Original English
>> And you made a couple million dollars from selling MicroSolutions as a young man. Um you then start the broadcast.com company in your early 30s.
>> 我当时 37 岁，对。
Original English
>> I'm 37. yeah.
>> 哦，你 37 岁。然后那家公司在 4 年后以 57 亿美元的股票卖给了雅虎。
Original English
>> Oh, you're 37. And that sold 4 years later to Yahoo for 5.7 billion in stock.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> yeah.
>> 这让你拥有了大体在 15 亿到 17 亿美元之间的账面净资产。
Original English
>> Which gave you a paper net worth of somewhere between roughly 1.5, 1.7 billion dollars.
>> 账面上的，是的。
Original English
>> Paper, yeah.
>> 那对你有什么改变吗？
Original English
>> How did that change anything?
>> 噢，是的。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah.
>> 是吗？
Original English
>> Yeah?
>> 改变了一切，你知道的。
Original English
>> Changed everything, you know.
>> 内心层面呢？
Original English
>> Inside?
>> 是的，因为这意味着我不用再去奔波劳碌、为接下来发生什么而发愁，我想干什么他妈的就能干什么。这就是整件事最美妙的地方。我是说，买下独行侠队。我做梦都从来没有想过自己会拥有一支 NBA 球队。再说回我想要掌控自己的时间。那是我父母从来没有过的选择。他们总是对别人负有责任。他们必须去上班。他们必须对某某人客气。他们必须做这做那。而仅仅是能回到家、吃上晚饭、看看电视，就是他们的快乐了。
Original English
>> Yeah, because it meant instead of hustling and worrying about what came next, I got to do whatever the [ __ ] I wanted to do. And that was the beauty of the whole thing. I mean, buying the Mavs. Never in a million years would have crossed my mind that I would own an NBA team. And again, going back to I wanted to control my own time. That was something my parents never had the option to do. They always were obligated to somebody else. They had to show up at work. They had to be nice to so-and-so. They had to do such-and-such. And just being able to come home and eat dinner and watch TV was their joy.
>> 你父亲见证了你成为一个成功的人。他是怎么想的？
Original English
>> Your dad got to see you become a successful man. What did he think?
>> 噢，他就是哭啊哭啊哭个不停。可以这么说吧，我们是一个容易动感情的家庭，对。呃，他显然为我们所有人感到骄傲。他只会摇摇头，然后说：“我不知道你的本事是从哪儿来的。
Original English
>> Oh, he would just cry and cry and cry. We're an emotional family, let's put it that way, yeah. Um he obviously was proud of all of us. And he would just shake his head and he goes, "I don't know where you got it.
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 肯定不是遗传自我或者你妈。”还有……
Original English
>> It certainly didn't come from me or your mom." And
>> 有没有……获得巨额财富还让你对意义、幸福，或者这一切到底是为了什么，有了别的领悟吗？
Original English
>> Are there any Is anything else that acquiring lots of money has taught you about meaning happiness or what this is all really about?
>> 有啊，如果你穷的时候过得痛苦，那你富的时候大概率也会过得痛苦。
Original English
>> Yeah, if you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 金钱改变不了你是谁。金钱改变不了你的人生态度。金钱改变不了你对自己的感受。
Original English
>> Money can't change who you are. Money can't change your approach to life. Money can't change how you feel about yourself.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 我的意思是，有钱挺好的。比起身无分文，我我更喜欢富有得多，但是，我真正感到自豪的是，你看，我身边的朋友还是原来那些。你知道，我的高中哥们儿依然是我的高中哥们儿。我和我的兄弟们关系依然很好。我和我的橄榄球队友们依然很亲近。我和那些一直以来对我意义重大的人，关系依然很亲近。
Original English
>> I mean, it's nice. I I like being rich a whole lot more than I like being broke, but I really take pride in the fact that, you know, I still have the same friends. You know, my high school buddies are still my high school buddies. I'm still close to my brothers. I'm still close to my rugby teammates. I'm still close to, you know, the same people that always have meant something to me.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 那些才是我的朋友。
Original English
>> Those are my friends.
### 商业中的为人与名声的代价
>> 在商业上你必须心狠手辣吗？
Original English
>> Do you have to be ruthless in business?
>> 不。绝对不是。那是我在 MicroSolutions 时犯过的最大错误之一。我以前老是吼叫。后来，我在 broadcast.com 的合伙人托德·瓦格纳（Todd Wagner）对我说：“马克，大家都很怕你。这会适得其反。你得冷静点。”他是对的。我发现待人和善比咄咄逼人能让我走得远得多。
Original English
>> No. Absolutely not. That was one of the biggest mistakes I made um in MicroSolutions. I used to scream. And then Todd Wagner, my partner at um broadcast.com, told me, "Mark, people are afraid of you. It's counterproductive. You have to, you know, chill out." And he was right. And I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.
>> 这种待人和善的理念，是你父亲也非常明确传授的另一个教训。
Original English
>> This idea of being nice is another lesson that your father was quite clear on.
>> 是的，确实如此。我的意思是，他对待所有人都很和善。我可以发脾气，但那改变不了任何事。你知道的，如果它改变不了任何事，而且发脾气还会让我感觉更糟糕，那去他的吧。
Original English
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, he was nice to everybody. I can be mad, but it's not going to change anything. You know, and if it's not going to change anything and it makes me feel worse by being mad, [ __ ] it.
>> 但如果别人不知道你骨子里有狠劲，他们难道不会找你的麻烦吗？
Original English
>> But don't people going to [ __ ] with you if if they don't know that you have it in the locker?
>> 他们能做什么呢？
Original English
>> What are they going to do?
>> 你知道，大家可能会……我我再次声明，我在这里只是唱个反调，但是如果大家觉得你是个软柿子，难道他们不会……
Original English
>> You know, people might I I again, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but aren't if if people think you're a soft touch, aren't they going to
>> 凭空给他们开支票，对吧？我只是不会去……我的意思是，你看，如果你在篮球比赛里看到我对裁判的样子，那就像是我的发泄口，对吧？我就是在那儿把脾气宣泄出来的，但在生意场上，那根本不值得。尤其是现在。比如我刚起步的时候，我才 20 多岁，不懂事。我其实没有榜样。我只是边干边学。那时候，你知道，我是个混蛋。我会吼叫。我会尖叫。但一旦我到了 broadcast.com、audionetbroadcast.com，我办成的事情多得多了。而且我也为此更加快乐。你知道，这让一切都变得更容易，大家对我的反应也更好了。所以，事情就成了，结果很好。
Original English
>> writing them checks for nothing, right? I'm just not going to be I mean, look, if you saw me with referees at a basketball game, that was like my outlet, right? That's where I got it out of my system, but like in business, it's just not worth it. Particularly now. Like when I was first getting started, I'm in my 20s and I didn't know any better. I didn't really I didn't have any role models. I was just learning as I went. Then, you know, I was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would scream. But once I got to broadcast.com, audionetbroadcast.com, I got a lot more done. And I was happier about it. You know, it just made it easier and people, you know, reacted better to me. And so, it was it worked out.
>> 因为我们听过史蒂夫·乔布斯的故事，关于他的愤怒和暴怒，而且我刚才还在读阿里·伊曼纽尔（Ari Emanuel）写关于愤怒的书。
Original English
>> Cuz we hear about the stories of Steve Jobs and his anger and his rage and I was just reading Ari Emanuel's book about a rage.
>> 是的，阿里确实能发起火来，对。但每个人都是不同的，你懂吗？我的意思是，什么适合你；而对我来说，比如现在，我为什么要去冲某个人发火？这对我有什么好处？
Original English
>> Yeah, Ari can let it loose, yeah. But everybody's different, you know? I mean, what works for you and just for me, like now, why would I get mad at somebody? What good does it do me?
>> 你看起来是个非常快乐的人。
Original English
>> You seem like a very happy person.
>> 我努力做到这一点，对吧？我是说，我我……
Original English
>> I try to be, right? I mean, I I mean,
>> 在镜头之外，我觉得你是一个非常乐观、快乐的人。
Original English
>> off camera, I felt like you were a very optimistic, happy person.
>> 是的，因为何乐而不为呢？
Original English
>> Yeah, cuz why not?
>> 事实上，遇到一个拥有这种积极能量和某种满足感的亿万富翁，由于某些原因，实际上是相当罕见的。
Original English
>> It's actually It's actually quite rare to meet someone who is a billionaire um who has that positive energy and sort of contentment for some reason.
>> 金钱改变了我的生活，但它并没有改变我的人生。你看，我能买得起的东西，不用再为住哪里或者付账单发愁，所有这些钱能办到的事，但它并没有让我变成一个更好的人或者更坏的人。它没有改变我的人际关系。我的意思是，[清嗓子] 说实话，成为名人可比成为富人难熬得多。
Original English
>> Money has changed my life, but it didn't change my life. You know, the things I could buy, not having stress about where I lived or paying the bills, all the stuff that money can do, but it didn't make me a better person or a worse person. It didn't change my relationship. I mean,
>> [清嗓子]
Original English
>> [clears throat]
>> 真的，成为名人比成为富人难多了。
Original English
>> honestly, being a celebrity was a lot harder than being rich.
>> 真的吗？
Original English
>> Really?
>> 是的，尤其是随着社交媒体变得越来越普遍，而且当《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）大火的时候，你知道，独行侠队刚拿了总冠军，《创智赢家》现在正处于收视率顶峰，一切都在风头上。我是说，各处的名人们都在说：“噢，我太喜欢《创智赢家》了。它是我最喜欢的新节目。”你懂那套东西是怎么回事，对吧？富有并不会给你带来关注，对吧？它只是改变了你应对事情的方式。成为名人则会给你带来关注，有些是好的，有些是坏的。
Original English
>> Yeah, particularly as um social media became more prevalent and when Shark Tank blew up, it was you know, the Mavs had just won a championship. Shark Tank now is at the top at its peak ratings and everything. And I mean, celebrities everywhere, "Oh, I love Shark Tank. It's my new favorite show." You know how all that stuff goes, right? And being rich doesn't give you attention, right? It just changes how you deal with things. Being a celebrity brings you attention, some good, some bad.
>> 你是三兄弟里的哥哥。
Original English
>> And you are you're an older brother of three
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 兄弟。
Original English
>> brothers.
>> 是的，两个弟弟。
Original English
>> Yeah, two younger brothers.
>> 那对你的性格塑造有什么影响？因为你知道，我是四兄弟里的弟弟，但我总觉得当哥哥的，我的意思是，更倾向于去引领。这样去形容当哥哥的经历准确吗？
Original English
>> How how has that been formative to you? Cuz I you know, I'm a younger brother of four, but I always think of older brothers as being I mean, more likely to lead. Is that an accurate reflection of what it was like being an older brother?
>> 是的，是的，因为他们俩都跟着我去了达拉斯。两个人都超级聪明，棒极了的人。我们感情很亲近，但他们总是模仿我。你看，我和我二弟布赖恩差两岁半，和另一个差六岁。所以我离家早，早早就去上大学了。那阵子我们没那么亲近，因为他们年纪太小，而我已经不在家了，但后来我去了印第安纳，他们会来看我。再后来我离开印第安纳，去了达拉斯，他们也来和我一起住。他们俩都在某个时期和我一起住过，那也是我们变得亲近的阶段。
Original English
>> Yeah, yeah, cuz they they both followed me to Dallas. Both super smart guys, great guys. We're we're close, but they always copied me. And you know, there's 2 and 1/2 year difference to Brian, my middle brother, and 6-year difference. So, I was gone cuz I left early for college. We weren't as close then because they were super young and I was out of the house, but then I went to Indiana and they would come visit me. And you know, then I got came after Indiana, I went to Dallas and they came and lived with me. Both of them lived with me at some point, and that's where we got close.
>> 你觉得作为长兄，你在他们的生活中扮演了什么角色？
Original English
>> What role do you think you've played in their lives as big brother?
>> 你知道，这是个很好的问题。呃，我希望自己能树立一个好榜样。你知道，我觉得作为长兄，我对他们来说是一把双刃剑，因为呃，我觉得自己在很多方面树立了好的榜样，我也尽力去支持并在能帮到的地方帮助他们。但后来，你也知道随名气而来的会是什么，对吧？那造成了一整套完全不同的压力。而且我认为，特别是在达拉斯生活，随着我的事业真正开始起飞，对他们来说并不好受，我也看得出来。你知道，倒不是说他们不支持，但你知道，这也不像……
Original English
>> You know, that's a great question. Um I hope I've been able to set a good example. You know, I think I've been a double-edged sword for them as a big brother in that um I think I've set a good example in many ways and I tried to be supportive and help them where I could. But then, you know what it's like when it comes with celebrity, right? That creates a whole different set of pressures. And I think, you know, particularly living in Dallas as things started to really take off for me was tough on them and I could tell. You know, it's it's not that they weren't supportive, but you know, it's not like
### 弟弟的信与家庭的支撑
“库班”可不像“史密斯”那样常见，对吧？只要听到姓库班，别人就会说：“哦，你肯定跟……有亲戚关系吧”，或者“你哥是……”，你知道，“你和马克是什么关系？”我是说，我知道这给他们带来了很大压力。
Original English
Cuban is Smith, right? Where you know, it's like Cuban, oh you must be related to or your brother, you know, how are you related to Mark? And I mean, I know that that put a lot of pressure on them.Original English
>> Put a lot of pressure on them.Original English
>> Yeah.
Yeah, because, you know, well, what are you doing, right? Or you just live off your brother or this or that and both of them are smart and both of them have made their own way, have done really well, but you know, and we haven't talked about it a lot, but, you know, we it it was definitely tougher on them as things really started to take off for me.Original English
>> Brian struggled.Original English
>> Yeah.Original English
>> Um we actually spoke to Brian.Original English
>> Oh, you did?Original English
>> We did speak to Brian. Yeah. And he he sort of spoke to some of those struggles.Original English
>> Yeah.Original English
>> But he also um he wrote you a letter.Original English
>> Oh my god. I'll probably start crying.Original English
>> Can I read it?Original English
>> Yeah.Original English
>> I read it and I I found it to be you know, very emotional.Original English
>> Do you want me to read it out loud?Original English
>> Yeah.Original English
>> We have so many great childhood memories. It's hard to pick one.Original English
>> [sighs and gasps]Original English
>> So, I'll go to the one that feels most personal to me. July 2005 is the lowest moment in my life wanting to end it. You and Jeff were there for me as you both always have been. I wouldn't be here today if not for you both. As our dad told us growing up, no matter what happens or where you go, always stay in contact with your brothers. It's no accident that after so many decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh,Original English
>> [snorts]Original English
>> we all live within walking distance of each other. I love you. Bye. Yeah, it was not a good time um in 2005. You know, he And again, that goes part and parcel to, you know, being my little brother, you know, and being out and about in the social scene and you know, I bought the Mavs in 2000. You know, I was becoming famous and all of a sudden it wasn't a burden he chose, right? Or it wasn't his choice. It was just the way things turned out. And you know, he he took a turn. I mean, he just had issues, had problems, andOriginal English
>> [snorts]Original English
>> Jeff called me. I was out of town. I came back in and we went and got him and put him in rehab and you know, and he's been sober ever since. So, thank God for that.Original English
>> It puts things into perspective, doesn't it?Original English
>> Yeah.Original English
>> In so many ways.Original English
>> It's crazy cuz, you know, it's not like we were all best friends and did everything together, but [snorts] we always connected and stayed together. Family trips, going places with my dad or my mom or to this day, you know, we're texting each other. I don't even know how many times a week or if there's a Steelers game or Pirates game or something going on, we're we're still connected.Original English
>> Your mother you just mentioned missing your father. Your mother and your father passed over 2017 and 2022. How has did that moment bring the family together? Or bring your siblings together?Original English
>> Um I mean, in the obvious sense, yes. I mean, at that point in time, but I think it it makes you feel when your parents pass, it makes you feel your own mortality. Everybody's time comes at some point. And my dad made it to 92, my mom made it to 85, and that sounds like a long time until you realize it's not as long as you hope. And so, yeah, it it definitely connected us even more strongly than we were.Original English
>> When we When I read about some of these things, I thought about some of your more recent decisions around leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs, they felt like they were part of the same puzzle.Original English
>> 100% Yeah, definitely cuz again, when you start feeling your own mortality and you start recognizing what's important, my kids, my family, that next business trip didn't seem nearly as important as it used to. And missing a birthday and telling myself, well, I'll be there for the next one,Original English
>> Mhm.Original English
>> you know, became a mistake and I was just like, okay, what's the point of doing this? You know, I'm They were 13, um, 16, and 19 when I sold the Mavs, and a little bit older when I got out of Shark Tank, and you know, it it wasn't going to be all that long till they were on their own. And I just wanted to be there as much as I could.Original English
>> Should everyone be an entrepreneur?Original English
>> No, not everybody's built to be an entrepreneur. UmOriginal English
>> What are they missing?Original English
>> If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur. There's something that you want to accomplish, or there's a skill that you have that you want to to use to your own benefit, financial benefit, but not everybody's willing to do the work like we talked about earlier, to do the preparation, to to fight the battles, and I think a lot of people think that when you become an entrepreneur, you get more control of your life as opposed to being subject to what the whims of your bosses.Original English
>> Mhm.Original English
>> It's the exact opposite.Original English
>> Mhm.Original English
>> You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something. Some employee's child is sick, and you have to work it through because particularly you know if you have a company that has under 100 employees everybody's family at some level, you know, and you know everybody you you talk to them, you know what's happening in your lives. People don't expect that when they become an entrepreneur.Original English
>> If I sat Mark there, 20 year old Mark here.Original English
>> Yeah, programmer Mark.Original English
>> I just give you the preface on why I'm asking this question. I think that the journey you've been on changes a man, you know, in several ways, small ways. It's kind of like being pelted by hail. And especially if you're a famous person. So, I think people become clearer on their principles, and they they they learn principles, but they also become clearer on on their principles. So, if I sat 21 year old Mark there, and then you're sat here now, what how has this journey, being pelted by the world, good and bad, shaped you? And like what's changed?Original English
>> That's a great question. Um I mean, I think family obviously changes you the most, but from a business perspective from here, and it's great that you brought this picture. So, you see that poster right there that hadn't been hung hung hung up yet?Original English
>> Mhm.Original English
>> It says poverty sucks.Original English
>> [laughter]Original English
>> And I used to have it I just moved in that house, that's the second bedroom in my house. Every house or apartment that I lived in, that was on the wall. Poverty sucks. And I think that's the big difference. You know, this Mark was, you know, I would sit there for 25, 26 straight hours writing software for customers because I knew I had to do it.Original English
>> And you had no degree in software development.Original English
>> No, I had to teach myself everything. So, anything I didn't know, I had to learn teach myself. And that's what I would do. I literally I would get a bucket of ribs. It's so gross now, but I would sit there because I would start concentrating so hard, and I would look up thinking it's three or four hours later, and it'd be 28 hours later cuz I was just so consumed by what I was doing because I wanted to get to that next level.Original English
>> You found out what you were good at and what you were capable of. Did you also find out what you were not capable of and what you were not good at?Original English
>> Oh, yeah, a lot of stuff. I found out what do I suck at?Original English
>> I want to just preface this by saying, I think this is also really important because sometimes people look at a billionaire successful businessman like you and go, he must just [ __ ] beOriginal English
>> Oh, no, no, I there's a lot of things I'm awful at. At MicroSolutions, I had a partner, Martin Woodall. Martin Woodall was anal. He was just a perfectionist about everything. I'm not. I'm ready, fire, aim. Go, go, go, go, go. And if you go out of the baseline, so be it, right? If it goes into touch, so be it, it doesn't matter, right? That's for somebody else to deal with. When I got to broadcast.com, Todd Wagner, same way. His skill set complemented mine. It wasn't that I needed a partner, it's that I needed a partner.Original English
>> Mhm.Original English
>> You know, [clears throat] and recognizing that I never was going to be good at the details. Dr. Osmanski now at Cost Plus Drugs, very detail-oriented. I need that
Original English
complement to my skill set because I'm awful at the details.
>> 财务方面呢？你擅长财务吗，毕竟你并没有财务学位，对吧？
Original English
>> What about finance? Were you good at finance cuz you didn't have a finance degree, did you?
>> 哦，不是，但我上过财务课，也上过创业课。所以，是的，我懂财务。我也许没办法设计出最尖端的并购方案，但我完全能看懂。
Original English
>> Oh, no, but I'd taken finance classes, I'd taken entrepreneurship classes. So, yeah, I get finance. I might not be able to structure the most advanced M&A deal, but I'm going to understand it.
>> 那招聘和领导力呢？是不是像……
Original English
>> What about hiring and leadership? Is like
>> 这个嘛，又是另一码事了，对吧？我们把招聘和领导力分开来说。
Original English
>> Well, that's another thing. Right? Let's separate hiring and leadership.
>> 嗯。
Original English
>> Mhm.
>> 领导力是我觉得自己擅长的一件事，对吧？而招聘，我简直烂透了。作为一名销售人员，我看到史蒂文坐在我对面，史蒂文回答了一个问题，我就会想：“好，我能帮史蒂文，我能把这事做成。我想要……我想让这家伙在我公司取得成功。”结果我招来的全是最糟糕的人。“你为什么要招这家伙？”好吧，我觉得这就跟《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）里的项目一样——“这家公司烂透了，你为什么要投这个人？”“哦，我能把它做成，我能把它盘活。”所以人们会说：“嘿，马克，我能去你那儿工作吗？我能给你发简历吗？”我就会说：“千万别发给我——
Original English
>> Leadership is one thing I think I'm good at, right? Hiring, suck at it. As a salesperson, I would see Steven sitting sitting across from me and Steven would give me an answer to a question. I'm like, "Okay, I can help Steven. I can make it work. I want to I want this guy to be successful at my company." And I would hire the worst possible people. Why did you hire this guy? Well, I thought it's like a Shark Tank deal. This company sucks. Why were you investing in this guy? Oh, I can make it work. I can make it work. And so, people are like, "Hey Mark, can I get a job? Can I send you my resume?" I'm like, "Don't send it to me
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> ——因为我搞不好真会录用你。”
Original English
>> cuz I might hire you."
>> 我在这方面烂透了。
Original English
>> I'm awful at it.
>> 不过就最终结果而言，你觉得这项技能有多重要？
Original English
>> How important is it though as a skill in terms of outcomes, do you think?
>> 噢，招聘至关重要，对吧？我是说，如果你没有合适的人处在合适的文化中，没有融入那种文化的人，你就会做得很烂。不过，你知道，我们往往慢招快裁。所以，如果这帮人招了谁，而我认为这人不行，他们就会心知肚明，事情很快就会解决。
Original English
>> Oh, hiring is critical, right? I mean, if you don't have the right people in the right culture, the people that fit into that culture, you're going to suck. But, you know, we would hire slow, but fire fast. So, if there's somebody that these guys hired and I'm like, they're not going to work, they would know and it'd get resolved.
>> 创业者们很少谈论这一点。他们谈论的往往是做出一款功能惊艳、光鲜亮丽的产品，但其实搭建团队的艺术……
Original English
>> People founders don't talk about that. And if they they talk about like creating a fancy shiny product that does something awesome, but the actual art of like building the team
>> ……更加重要。
Original English
>> is more important.
>> 确实。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 是的，我的意思是，你必须拥有合适的产品、合适的服务，但是……
Original English
>> Yeah, I mean, you got to have the right product, the right service, but
>> 这又让我联想到那个问题了。
Original English
>> Makes me think about this again.
### 接手独行侠与重塑团队文化
>> 对，也是那一套，没错。你必须有文化。尤其在体育领域，你可以拥有顶尖的天赋，但如果他们作为一支球队无法融合在一起，成绩就会一塌糊涂。
Original English
>> Yeah, that as well, yeah. You've got to have culture. And particularly in sports, you can have the most talent, but if they don't fit together as a team, they're going to suck.
>> 你最初接手独行侠时，看到的就是这种情况吗？
Original English
>> Is that what you found when you went into the Mavs originally?
>> 哦，可不是嘛。是的，我刚到那儿的时候，根本没人想留在那儿。我指的是，字面意义上的，不管是办公室里的人还是球场上的人，我们这里简直就是个中转站。如果你在湖人或者凯尔特人或者随便哪支队找不到工作，对吧？行吧，独行侠会要你，就凑合待着呗。所以我一去到那里，这就是我最关注的事。我坐在球员们面前，我说：“我们是要赢球的。这趟列车正在加速，现在是互联网时代，是2000年了，对吧？你想留下来，就告诉我；你不想留，也告诉我，我把你交易走。我对此完全没意见，因为我们做事的方式要彻底改变。我期望你们去赢，我也会提供给你们赢球所需的工具。”
比如我做过的一件事，我刚接手的时候，我们有一个主教练和大概三个助教。他们负责全部的训练和球员培养，当时整个NBA都是这么干的。我们花在电脑培训和技术支持上的钱，居然字面上比花在球员培养上的钱还要多，而这些球员的薪水可都在一百万美元以上。我就觉得，这简直是我见过最愚蠢的操蛋事。于是我跟我们的总经理、副总经理还有教练们说：“去把独行侠的前球员找回来，把他们请来，我们给他们每个人分配一名球员，这个球员的技术特点要和他们当年在NBA打球时类似，而他们什么别的事都不用做，就专心陪练。就这么简单，只管陪练。”
对我来说这完全合情合理，因为这些老球员都想重返圈子，我们几乎不用付他们多少报酬，他们只是想重新融入这项运动；而转眼间，我们所有的球员都有了专人盯防培养。这不仅提升了他们的技术，更让他们意识到这个组织的文化就是赢球，为了赢我们会不惜一切代价。你看，这确实收到了成效。可是NBA的其他球队呢？我的天，他们恨死我了，他们恨死我了。
我跑去买了一架飞机，你知道，我在球队专机上花的心思也是一样，因为我想，我们在加州奥克兰打完比赛，凌晨3点之类的离开，我可不想让我们坐他们租来的破烂小飞机，或者那种普通的民航客机——队里有七英尺高的人，像肖恩·布拉德利（Shawn Bradley）有多高？7尺6寸？他坐不进普通座位，而他是靠身体吃饭的，对吧？所以我买了一架飞机，我告诉球员们：“行，我们来整整大家。我要你们去告诉所有人，飞机上有个举重房，还有一个蒸汽浴室。”
Original English
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, when I got there, nobody wanted to be there. I mean, literally, people in the office, people on the court, they we were just a way station. If you couldn't get a job with the Lakers or the Celtics or whoever, right? Okay, the Mavs will hire you and that's fine. So, when I got there, it was the most important thing that I focused on. I sat there in front of the players, I'm like, we're going to win. And this train is speeding up, it's internet time, it's 2000, right? And if you want to stay, let me know. And if you don't want to stay, let me know and I'll trade you. I got no problem with that cuz we're going to do things differently. I expect you to win, I'll give you the tools you need to win. Like, one of the things I did, like, when I took over, we had head coach and like three assistant coaches. And they were responsible for all the training and player development and that's the way the entire NBA did it. And we were literally spending more money on computer training and support than we were on player development and for players we paid more than a million dollars. So, I'm like, this is the dumbest [ __ ] I've ever seen. And so, I asked our general manager and assistant general manager and coaches, I'm like, go find former Mavericks and I want you to bring them in and we're going to assign to each of them one player who has a similar skill set that they had when they were in the NBA and they're going to do nothing but work with them. That's it. Just work with them. That made perfect sense to me because all these former players wanted to get in and we hardly had to pay them anything. They just wanted to be part of the game again and now all of a sudden all of our players had somebody focused on them and not only did it improve their skills, but it made them realize that the culture of this organization is to win and we will do whatever it takes to win and you know, it paid off. But the rest of the NBA? Oh my god, they hated me. They hated me. I went out bought a plane, you know, I spent about the same amount on the team plane because I'm like we leave Oakland, California at 3:00 in the morning or whatever. I don't want us flying on this little ratty plane that they rented or a typical commercial plane when your guy's seven What are the guy Shawn Bradley 7'6"? He's not you know, fitting in a regular seat and he's making his living with his body, right? So, I bought a plane and I told I told the guys, "Okay, we're going to [ __ ] with everybody. I want you to tell everybody that there's a weight room on the plane, a steam room."
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 我们根本没有那些扯淡玩意儿，对吧？直到今天，还有人来问我当年飞机上的健身房。诸如此类的事，不仅本身切实有效、能改善结果，而且传递出一个明确的信号：嘿，这就是我们的目标，这就是我们的文化，我们要赢。我们会彼此支持，而且我会为你们提供所需的一切工具。甚至像营养师，或者给他们定制膳食这类事情，在那时候各支球队都还没开始做。而[清嗓子]这对我来说完全是合情合理的。
Original English
>> We didn't have any of that [ __ ] right? And to this day people will ask me about the weight room that we had on the plane. And just stuff like that where it's not only is it effective and improves outcomes, but it sends a message that hey, this is what we're trying to do. This is our culture. We're going to win. We're going to support each other and I'm going to get you all the tools you need. Like even things like a nutritionist or you know, preparing food for them. Things teams didn't do back then. And [clears throat] it just made sense to me.
>> 你看到独行侠的文化发生转变了吗？
Original English
>> Did you see the culture changing of the maps?
>> 噢，转瞬之间。
Original English
>> Oh, like that.
>> 变化很快。
Original English
>> It was quickly.
>> 噢，是的。我们直接……我接手时，战绩是9胜23负。
Original English
>> Oh, yeah. We went When I took over, we were 9 and 23.
>> 那意味着什么？
Original English
>> What's that mean?
>> 额，就是9场胜利，23场失利。
Original English
>> Um we were nine wins and 23 losses.
>> 噢，天哪。
Original English
>> Oh, damn.
>> 是的。那个赛季结束时，额，接下来的50场比赛我们打出了31胜19负。
Original English
>> Yeah. And we finished the season um the next 50 games we were 31 and 19.
>> 哇。
Original English
>> Wow.
>> 是的。
Original English
>> Yeah.
>> 是下个赛季吗？
Original English
>> The next season?
>> 不，说的就是那个赛季。
Original English
>> No, we're talking about that season.
>> 就是那个赛季。
Original English
>> That season.
>> 所以，我是在1月份接手的，赛季会一直打到4月左右。我接手时是9胜23负，而在那个赛季剩下的50场、50场比赛里，我们赢了31场，只输了19场。
Original English
>> So, when I took over in January, the season runs towards April. When I took over, we had nine wins, 23 losses, and for the remaining 50 50 games of that season, we won 31 of them, lost 19 of them.
>> 自从你接手以来，独行侠的常规赛胜率在所有NBA球队中高居第二。在你任内，球队胜率从39%提升到了近60%。独行侠首次打进总决赛，但在2006年输给了迈阿密热火。
Original English
>> Since you took over, the Mavericks had the second highest regular season winning percentage of any NBA team. The team went from 39% win rate to almost 60% win rate under you. The Mavericks made their first finals, but lost to Miami Heat in 2006.
>> 没错。
Original English
>> Yep.
>> 之后独行侠在2011年拿下了NBA总冠军，当时你53岁。然后，你卖掉了大部分股权。
Original English
>> And then, the Mavericks won the NBA championship in 2011, when you were 53 years old. And then, you sold the majority ownership.
>> 2023年。是的。
Original English
>> 2023. Yeah.
>> 但你依然持有很大一部分……
Original English
>> But, you still have a significant
>> 27%，是的。
Original English
>> 27%, yeah.
### 商业与体育的相通逻辑：数据分析与持续创新
>> 我一直觉得球队是非常好的类比，很适合用来学习如何打造企业，因为那里有一块记分牌，而且很快就能拿到比分反馈。而在商业领域，你的产品实际表现如何，有时候会显得更加模糊。
Original English
>> I always find teams as like that that great analogy for learning about how to build businesses because it is there's a scoreboard, and you get the scores back quick. Whereas, in business, there can be it's kind of a bit more vague as to what's happening with your product.
>> 体育总有新赛季。你可以做交易，可以裁员，[清嗓子]你知道的，可以换人。而在商业世界里，那是全天候一年365天不间断的。它是终极的竞技运动，也就是说，你知道，如果你有强烈的竞争欲望，商业就是满足这种需求的终极途径。
Original English
>> always a new season in sports. You can make trades, you can cut people, [clears throat] you know, replace them. In business, it's 24/7 by 365. It's the ultimate sport, which is, you know, if you have competitive juices, business is the ultimate way to to fill that need.
>> 关于打造企业，或者组建、招募团队，你还有从独行侠学到什么其他适用的经验吗？
Original English
>> Is there anything else you learned from Mavericks, the Mavs, that might be applicable to building businesses or or hiring teams or creating teams?
>> 我认为你必须具备创新精神，因为竞争太激烈了。比如像利用统计数据。说个简短的故事。
当年我在印第安纳大学的时候，刚到那儿才18岁，就溜进了MBA项目，开始上MBA的课。我溜进去听的第一门MBA课程，是一位名叫韦恩·温斯顿（Wayne Winston）的老师讲的统计学课。后来快进到我买下独行侠大约6个月后，不管是多久吧，我正在电视上看《危险边缘》（Jeopardy!）。
他在节目里表现极其出色，对吧？简直杀疯了。几周之后我人在印第安纳波利斯，我们客场打印第安纳步行者，我听到观众席里有人喊：“马克，马克，马克！”就是说，要不是我看过他上《危险边缘》，我都认不出他是我18岁时的教授。我们聊了起来，他开始向我介绍他在体育统计学方面做的事情。
我当场就雇用了他，他也成了NBA第一位全职的数据分析人员。这帮助我们一路走上了赢球和夺冠的道路，额，或者说拿下了一座总冠军。针对你的问题，核心就在于：体育和所有商业一样，你必须不断保持创新。你……
Original English
>> I think you have to be innovative because it's so competitive. Things like, you know, using statistics. It's quick story. When I was at Indiana, I snuck into the NBA program when I got there as an 18-year-old, and I started taking MBA classes. The first MBA class I snuck into was a statistics class taught by a guy named Wayne Winston. But, fast forward 6 months after I bought the Mavs, whatever it was, and I'm watching Jeopardy on television. And he's on there killing it, right? Killing it. And then weeks later I'm at Indianapolis, we're playing the Indiana Pacers, and I hear "Mark, Mark, Mark" from the crowd, and it's like, if I hadn't watched him on Jeopardy, I wouldn't have recognized him as my professor from when I was 18 years old. And we started talking, and he started telling me about what he was doing with statistics for sports, and I hired him on the spot, and he became the first um analytics person in the NBA full-time, and that helped us grow our way into winning games and winning championships, um or a championship. And the point to your question is you have to keep on innovating in sports like all businesses. You
不能躺在功劳簿上。
Original English
can't rest on your laurels.
>> 人们不喜——往往不总是喜欢数据和统计的概念，因为这似乎对直觉、判断力和创造力构成了威胁。
Original English
>> People don't like necess- always like the idea of data and statistics cuz it seems to be a threat against that instinct and judgment and creativity.
>> 不，确实是这样。就像肉眼观察对比数据，而这两者你都必须兼顾。你不能排斥其中任何一个。我的意思是，有些球员投篮姿势就是很难看，投进的球也没那么多，但综合来看，他们对赢得比赛和夺得总冠军的影响，比那些能拿25分的人还要大。
Original English
>> No, it's true. Like, the eye test versus the numbers, and you have to do both. You know, you can't exclude one or the other. I mean, there's some players that just look shoot ugly, don't make as many shots, but in aggregate, they impact winning a game and winning championships more than the guys who score 25 points.
### 家庭与遗憾
>> 蒂芙尼（Tiffany）。
Original English
>> Tiffany.
>> 哎哟。
Original English
>> Uh-oh.
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 我跟蒂芙尼聊过了。开玩笑的，我其实没有。
Original English
>> I spoke to Tiffany. I'm joking, I didn't really.
>> 噢，好吧。我的意思是，那倒也没什么不好，但我刚才就是心想——
Original English
>> Oh, okay. I mean, it wouldn't be bad, but I was just like,
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 好吧，我很惊讶你居然找过她。
Original English
>> okay, I'm surprised you talked to you.
>> 你没必要被饮料呛到。也许我真该找她聊聊。蒂芙尼，我想你是在39岁时在一家健身房认识她的。
Original English
>> You didn't need to choke on your drink. Maybe I should have. Um Tiffany, you met Tiffany I think in a gym when you were 39.
>> 对，就算三十大几吧，是的。
Original English
>> Yeah, late 30s, let's say, yeah.
>> 然后你们结婚了？
Original English
>> And you got married?
>> 嗯，在2002年，所以我那时44岁。
Original English
>> Um in 2002, so I was 44.
>> 到目前为止有三个孩子？
Original English
>> Three kids so far?
>> 到目前为止。
Original English
>> So far.
>> 好的。[笑声]
Original English
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> 没，我已经做了结扎手术了。
Original English
>> No, I got snipped.
>> 好吧，好吧，所以总共就这些。这如何融入我们之前讨论过的关于快乐、意义、目标和成功的一切？
Original English
>> Okay, okay, so total. How does that feed into everything we've talked about around happiness and meaning and purpose and success?
>> 噢，它凌驾于一切之上。
Original English
>> Oh, it supersedes everything.
>> 真的吗？
Original English
>> Really?
>> 是的，我的意思是，我的大脑有一部分就是生意、生意、生意、生意，竞争、竞争、竞争；而我身上更美好的那一部分，则是我的孩子们、我的孩子们、我的孩子们，还有我的妻子。他们以我甚至无法形容的无数种方式让我变得更好。对我来说，没有任何事情比这更重要。什么都没有。我作为一个父亲可能做得不算很好，别告诉他们，或者作为一个丈夫也不算出色，但我尽力了。
Original English
>> Yeah, I mean, you you got one part of my brain that is like business, business, business, business, you know, compete, compete, compete, and then you've got the better part of me that's my kids, my kids, my kids, um and my wife, and they've just changed me for the better in a million ways I can't even describe. And there's nothing, you know, more important to me. Nothing. I may not be great as a dad, don't tell you, you know, but, um, or a husband, but I do my best.
>> 为什么这如此重要？我们很多人在追求——的过程中都牺牲了人际关系。
Original English
>> What why is that so important? So many of us sacrifice relationships in the pursuit of
>> 我必须承认我也牺牲过，对吧？我的意思是，比如当年我经营 MicroSolutions 时，我当时在和一个女士约会，情况就是，我是带着使命在拼搏。在把家庭置于生意之前这方面，我当时没有立刻安定下来，但我最终还是走到了那一步。
Original English
>> And I must say that I did, right? I mean, like, when I had MicroSolutions, I was dating a woman and it was like, I mean, I I was on a mission. I didn't settle down immediately in terms of, you know, family in front of business, but I got to that point.
>> 事后回想，你觉得当时有可能兼顾两者吗？
Original English
>> In hindsight, do you think it would have been possible to do both at the same time?
>> 不可能做到我当时在生意上那么好的程度，而且我在很多方面都对此感到遗憾。
Original English
>> Not as well as I did it, um, and I regret that in a lot of ways.
>> 哪一部分？
Original English
>> Which part?
>> 就是我没能像自己也许本该做的那样，陪孩子们参加那么多小活动。我会对自己说：“他们太小了，记不住。”你知道的，于是我就去忙生意上需要做的事情。但事后回想，我大概原本应该多陪陪他们的。
Original English
>> The fact that I didn't do as many of the little events, um, with my kids as I probably should have. I would tell myself, um, "They're too young to remember." You know, and so I would go do what I needed to do with with business, um, but in hindsight, I probably would have done more of that.
>> 这种遗憾从何而来？是来自你自己，还是来自他们？
Original English
>> Where does that regret come from? Does that come from you or does that come from them?
>> 不，我的意思是，他们确实会提醒我某些事情，但我觉得主要还是源于我自己，事后回想。而且，我花了很长时间才走到这一步，但这就是我离开《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）、卖掉独行侠队的原因，或者说是很大一部分原因。
Original English
>> No, it I mean, they remind me of certain things, for sure, but, um, but I think it's for me, you know, just in hindsight. And, you know, it took me a while to get there, but that's why I left Shark Tank, why I sold the Mavs, or a big part of it.
>> 我也出于自己的原因做了决定。显然，我正处于即将迎来孩子的生命阶段，希望如此，求个好运。我一次又一次地从成功人士那里听到和你刚才说的一模一样的话。所以当我问这从何而来时，我是在想，这是孩子们长大后给你的反馈，还是仅仅是你自己的一种感受？
Original English
>> I also did it for my own reasons. Obviously, I'm in the season of life where I'm about to have, um, kids, hopefully, touch wood. And I hear over and over again exactly what you've just said from successful people. So, when I ask where does it come from, I'm like, is it did is it feedback the kids give you when they grow up or is it just a feeling you have?
>> 两者都有。
Original English
>> Both.
>> 两者都有，好的。
Original English
>> Both. Yeah.
>> 但是，我的意思是，因为十几岁的孩子就是那样的。我永远忘不了，当我大女儿大概12岁时，我在对她说什么，她就那样——
Original English
>> But, I mean, cuz teenagers are teenagers. I mean, I'll never forget when my oldest, like, she was 12 years old, I was saying something to her, she was like,
>> [清嗓子]
Original English
>> [clears throat]
>> 而且对他们来说情况不一样，对吧？我有时会感到难过，因为他们处在聚光灯下。我对他们每个人总是一次又一次地谈起：“听着，如果你出去做了什么，或者你的某个朋友出去做了什么蠢事——”
Original English
>> And and it's different for them, right? I feel bad sometimes because they're under a spotlight and, you know, I would always with each of them over and over, I would have the conversation, "Look, if you go out and do something or if one of your friends goes out and does something stupid,
>> 嗯。责任全在你。
Original English
>> Mhm. It's on you.
>> “你朋友做了蠢事，就是你朋友做了蠢事。如果你做了蠢事，就会登上报纸头版和全世界的社交媒体推送。”所以，我认为这给了他们一些不公平的压力，但我觉得他们已经适应了。他们是很棒的孩子。别误会我的意思。他们是太棒太棒的孩子。而且，我依然可以绝对肯定地告诉你，全世界我最喜欢的词就是“爸爸”。他们知道我爱哭。
Original English
>> Your friend did something stupid. If you do something stupid, it's on the front page of the paper and every, you know, social media feed around the world. And so, I think that puts some unfair pressure on them, but I mean, I think they've adapted. They're great kids. Don't get me wrong. They are amazing, amazing kids. And, you know, I can still tell you with absolute certainty that my favorite word in the world is dad. And they know I'm a crier.
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 我看得出来，仅仅说出这句话就让你动情了。
Original English
>> I can see it gets you emotional just saying it.
>> 是的。是的，那就像是每——那对我意义重大。
Original English
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's like every that means a lot to me.
>> 为什么？
Original English
>> Why?
>> 随着年龄增长，你开始意识到自己的寿限。就像我父母已经不在了，我的衣橱里放着他们的照片，我每天早晚都会向他们问好。我希望在自己离开后，我的孩子们也会这样对待我。我希望他们为我感到骄傲。我希望他们尽可能多地积极记住我，我希望他们能把我们大家一起能做的事情传承下去。
Original English
>> You know, as you get older, you start to recognize your mortality. And like with my parents being gone, I have their pictures, you know, in in my closet and I say hi to them every morning and every night. And I want my kids to be the same way after I'm gone. I want them to be proud of me. I want them to, you know, remember me positively as much as possible and I want them to carry on anything that, you know, we all can do together.
>> 我毫不怀疑他们会这样。我毫不怀疑他们现在就是这样。
Original English
>> I have no doubt they will be. I'm having no doubt they are.
>> 谁知道呢？谁知道呢？他们还在那个年纪，我们还不能——我们还没进行过那样的谈话。
Original English
>> Who knows? Who knows? They're at that age where we can't have that we don't have that conversation yet.
### Cost Plus Drugs 与未来使命
>> 展望未来，马克。你谈到了你的终有一死，你谈到了离开《创智赢家》——我刚刚成为这个节目的客座投资人，难以企及的标杆。
Original English
>> As you look forward, Mark. Um you've talked about your mortality, you've talked about um leaving Shark Tank, which I've just become a guest uh shark on the show, Unfilable Shoes.
>> 太好了。
Original English
>> great.
>> [笑声]
Original English
>> [laughter]
>> 是的，我挺好的。谢谢。你现在68岁了。
Original English
>> Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Um you're 68 now.
>> 对，不，48岁。[清嗓子]
Original English
>> Yeah, no, 48. [clears throat]
>> 48岁？[笑声] 说实话，你看上去确实像48岁。你看上去相当不错。你现在仍然做很多运动，对吧？我看你打篮球之类的。在你职业生涯的下一个阶段，你想实现什么？Cost Plus Drugs 随着这个节目——
Original English
>> 48? [laughter] You look 48, to be fair. You look pretty good. You play a lot of sports still, right? So, I see you playing basketball and stuff like that. What do you want to accomplish in this next season of your career? Cost Plus Drugs as the show
>> Plus Drugs，显然我想改变美国的医疗保健现状。它现在一团糟。在独行侠队的时候，有人走过来说“打得真棒”之类的，那确实很好；但现在当有人走到我面前说：“是啊，我在 cosmosdrugs.com 买到了药。它每月帮我省了1000美元，我现在能负担得起这些药了。”我的意思是——
Original English
>> Plus Drugs, obviously I want to change health care in America. It's a mess and, you know, it was great when with the Mavs, someone would say, "Oh, great game or whatever, but when somebody walks up to me now and says, "Yeah, I got my drugs from cosmosdrugs.com. It saves me, you know, $1,000 a month and now I can afford them." I mean,
>> 那真的很了不起，马克。
Original English
>> That's really something, Mark.
>> 太不可思议了。
Original English
>> It's crazy.
>> 像你这样的人愿意把生命投入到这件事中，这太不可思议了。因为抛开你刚才描述的那些不谈，我个人认为你做的最重大的事情，就是为一个不想被曝光的问题投下了巨大的关注之光。
Original English
>> It's crazy that someone like you would commit your life to this because regardless of what you've just described there, I think personally the biggest thing you're doing is just shining a massive light on an issue that doesn't want a light on it.
>> 噢，而且我会解决它。我向你保证我一定会解决它，因为基本上有三家大公司主导着整个医疗保健行业。你知道的，数百亿美元的销售额。这太疯狂了。而且有67%从雇主那里获得健康保险的人，是通过自保雇主获得的。我之所以提这个，是因为这意味着那些账单的全部责任都由该雇主承担。这意味着在雇佣谁来处理他们的所有保险并打理所有这些事务上，也是他们的责任。所以我直接去一家家登门拜访这些首席执行官，把他们骂得狗血淋头。如果我能说服他们做正确的事，既为他们自己省钱，又能改善员工及其家人的健康，我就在那里赢下一仗，我也将彻底改变这个国家的医疗保健，这就是使命所在。
Original English
>> Oh, and I'll fix it. I promise you I will fix it because there are three basically big companies that dominate all of health care. You know, hundreds of billions in sales. It's crazy. And you got 67% of people who get health insurance from their employer get it through an employer who's self-insured. And I bring that up because that means they take all the responsibility for the bills, that employer does. Which means it's their responsibility in who they hire to do all their insurance and take care of all that stuff. And so I just go door-to-door with these CEOs and I just give them [ __ ] left and right. And if I can get them to do the right thing to save themselves money and improve the health of their employees and families, I'll get a win there and I'll completely change health care in this country and that that's the mission.
>> 你和特朗普的关系有点意思，波折起伏，但我最近看到你站在他身边谈论这项举措。
Original English
>> You and Trump have had a bit of a interesting relationship, roller coaster relationship, but I saw you stood next to him talking about this initiative recently.
>> 是的。是的。听着，只要是能让人们更健康、在医疗保健上为他们省钱的事，我都没意见。我不在乎。你可以把我说得一无是处，我不在乎。目标就是目标。目标就是改变这个国家的医疗保健，让它真正成为其应有的样子——真正成为一种权利。为了做到这一点，我们必须让那些大公司不再主导这个行业。
Original English
>> Yeah. Yeah. Look, anything that makes people healthier and saves them money on their health care, that's fine by me. I don't care. You can give me some [ __ ] I don't care. You know, the goal is the goal. And the goal is to change health care in this country so that it is what it is, truly a right. And in order to do that, we're going to have to, you know, make it so that those big companies no longer dominate the industry.
### 尾声的提问
>> 我们这个播客有一个收尾传统：上一位嘉宾会为下一位嘉宾留下一个问题，而他们并不知道这是留给谁的。
Original English
>> We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves the question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.
>> 好。
Original English
>> Okay.
>> 而且我只有在翻开本子的时候才能读到。留给你的问题是——这真是一个令人难以置信的绝妙问题。很有意思。你未被问及的最难回答的问题是什么？我未被问及的最难回答的问题是什么？郑重声明，我不是在把这个问题抛回给你。
Original English
>> And I only get to read it when I open the book. Um the question left for you is this is a [ __ ] unbelievable question. It's an interesting one. What's the hardest question you weren't asked? What's the hardest question I wasn't asked? I'm not going to ask you the question, just for the record.
>> 我是说，你刚才问的那些家庭问题，在情感上最能触动你的，其实就是我很少被问到的最难的问题。
Original English
>> I mean, the family questions you asked, I mean, what what hits you most emotionally effectively is the hardest questions that I don't get asked.
>> 马克，非常感谢你。出于许多原因感谢你，感谢你作为一个个人的榜样
Original English
>> Mark, thank you so much. Thank you for for many reasons, for being a personal inspiration
对我来说，因为我记得很多次，我在关键时刻偶然接触到你的人生故事、你的作品或你的想法，它们要么给了我多一点信念，要么给了我一些耐心，嗯，给了我一些智慧，[清嗓子] 嗯，但而且，你知道，我现在所拥有的另一层认知，就是作为一个真实的人与你相处了一段时间。除了我所收获的智慧之外，除了使命感和家庭之外，真正收获的事情之一是，嗯，意识到一个人既可以非常、非常成功，同时也可以是一个好人、一个快乐的人和一个积极的人。
Original English
to me because I remember multiple times where I stumbled across your life story or your work or your ideas at a critical moment that either gave me a bit more belief, that gave me some patience, um, that gave me some wisdom, [clears throat] um, but also, you know, the the other layer of context I now have is just having spent some time with you as a person. And the one of the real things of outside of the wisdom that I come away with and outside of the sense of purpose and family is, um, the realization that you can be both very, very successful and you can be a good person and a happy person and a positive person.
Original English
>> Let's not go too far.
Original English
>> Yeah, [laughter] but that's how you feel. That's the energy you have. And obviously I've sat down with 700 people, so you get to see lots of things. So it's been a real pleasure and thank you for the inspiration. Thank you.
Original English
>> Thank you, Steven. I really enjoyed it. It was great.
Original English
>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out. I bet you you might love it.