--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-02-02' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8dEvZ0ZkQQ speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - immigration-enforcement - local-federal-cooperation - sanctuary-policy - deportation - legal-challenges title: 特朗普能否强制蓝州城市与ICE合作？庇护城市政策的历史与挑战 summary: 本访谈深入探讨了美国移民与海关执法局（ICE）与地方执法部门合作的历史演变，从奥巴马政府时期的高效遣返到庇护城市运动的兴起。讨论了地方政府因法律诉讼和社区信任问题而限制与ICE合作的原因，以及特朗普政府试图强制合作所面临的政治和法律挑战，特别以明尼阿波利斯为例，分析了地方警长在联邦政府压力下的困境。节目还简要提及了其他时事新闻，包括德克萨斯州特别选举结果和杰弗里·爱泼斯坦相关文件公布。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - ICE - ACLU products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- **迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 这里是《纽约时报》的**迈克尔·巴巴罗**，欢迎收听《The Daily》节目。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 早上好。我是**汤姆·霍曼**，为**特朗普总统**的边境政策而来。我代表总统和美国专员们来到这里。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: Good morning. I'm Tom Hullman on the borders are for President Trump. I'm here on behalf of the president along with US commissioners.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 几天前，总统的边境顾问前往**明尼阿波利斯**，传递了一个简单的信息。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: A few days ago, the president's borders are traveled to Minneapolis with a simple message.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 我没有要求他们成为移民官员。我要求他们作为警察与当地警察合作，希望能将犯罪外国人从街头清除。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: I didn't ask them to be immigration officers. I'm asking them to be cops working with the cops and hope to take criminal aliens off the street.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 当地官员与联邦移民探员合作得越快，这些探员离开的速度就越快。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: The faster local officials there cooperate with federal immigration agents, the faster those agents will leave.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 这是一种常识性的合作，能让我们减少在这里的人员数量。是的，我说了，减少这里的人员数量。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: This is common sense cooperation that allow us to draw down on the number of people we have here. Yes, I said it. Draw down the number of people here
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 今天，我们将探讨这种合作为何如此难以实现，甚至可能违法。我请来了两位同事，**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**和**埃内斯托·隆达诺**来解释。今天是2月2日星期一。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: today. the history of why that kind of cooperation is so difficult to pull off and potentially even illegal. I turned to two of my colleagues, Hammed Ali Aziz and Ernesto Londano to explain. It's Monday, February 2nd.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 嗯？作为一名资深移民记者，当你听到**汤姆·霍曼**向**明尼阿波利斯**的官员传递他的信息时，你当时在想什么？他基本上是提出，如果地方官员合作并提供便利，就会减少联邦探员的数量。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Huh? I wonder what you were thinking as a longtime immigration reporter when you heard Tom H. Homeman deliver the message that he did to officials in Minneapolis, essentially offering that draw down of federal agents if local officials cooperated and gave access.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 我当时在想，**汤姆·霍曼**非常适合为**特朗普政府**传递这个信息。他亲眼见证了自由派城市的地方执法部门与**ICE**（移民与海关执法局）、与联邦政府之间合作的整个演变过程。他确实是15年前**ICE**与地方执法部门密切合作还是常态时期的见证者。他也见证了这种合作逐渐消失，成为一个政治问题，越来越多的地方政府认为与**ICE**合作是不可接受的。所以，这确实是**汤姆·霍曼**十年来一直在进行的斗争。不仅在他首次**特朗普政府**任期内领导**ICE**的职位上，而且在**福克斯新闻**和国会证词中也一直如此。这确实是**汤姆·霍曼**的一个核心议题。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: I was thinking Tom H. Homeman was uniquely fit to carry this message for the Trump administration. You know, he is somebody who has seen the entire evolution of cooperation between local law enforcement in liberal cities with ICE, with the federal government. He's really someone who was there at a time when this was just normal practice at ICE 15 years ago to work closely with local law enforcement. Mhm. And he's been there as it's faded away, as it's become a political issue and more and more local governments find it unacceptable to work alongside ICE. And so this is a really a battle that Tom Hman has waged for a decade now. um not only from his position as uh leading ICE during that first Trump administration, but continuously as well on Fox News and testimony to Congress. This is really a core issue for Tom Hman.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 那么，**霍曼**似乎所代表的这种从合作到官方不合作的演变历史是怎样的？它从何开始？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, what is that history that Homeman seems to embody of this evolution from cooperation to official non-ooperation and and where does it start?
### 奥巴马政府时期的合作模式 **哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 所以，15年前在**奥巴马政府**时期，**汤姆·霍曼**领导着遣返工作。他负责监督所有的遣返官员。我认为重要的是要知道，当一个人在当地监狱被捕时，你的指纹会发送到联邦数据库，而这个联邦数据库会传给**ICE**。所以**ICE**总是知道有人被捕。他们有个人记录，并会查明他们正在寻找的人是否在县监狱里。无论是在**旧金山**还是在**阿拉巴马州**都一样。因此，**奥巴马政府**的一个关键策略是利用监狱来抓捕人员。当时，这还是一个较少政治争议的问题，**ICE**有权要求地方监狱在被拘留者本应获释后，再额外拘留48小时。这让**ICE**的工作变得非常容易，因为他们可以到监狱一次性带走多人，逮捕他们，送往**ICE**拘留中心并遣返。这使得整个过程非常高效，他们确实利用了**美国**各地的地方监狱。因此，它在地方执法部门和联邦移民工作之间建立了一个非常顺畅的渠道，对双方来说或多或少都行之有效。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: So 15 years ago during the Obama administration, Tom H. Homeman was leading deportation efforts. He was the person overseeing all deportation officers. And I think it's important just to know that when someone gets arrested in a local jail, your fingerprints ping to a federal database and that federal database goes to ICE. So ICE is always aware when someone is arrested. They have records on individuals and they find out if someone that they're looking for is in a county jail. and and it doesn't matter if it's in the San Francisco or in Alabama. And so one of the key strategies for the Obama administration was to utilize jails and prisons to pick up people. And at that time when it was less political issue, ICE had the ability to request local jails to hold on to people 48 hours after they're supposed to be released. This made things really easy for ICE because they could show up to a jail and they could take multiple people at once and they could arrest them, take them to ICE detention and deport them. So this made the entire process very efficient and they really tapped into local jails and prisons across the United States. So it created a very seamless pipeline from local law enforcement to federal immigration efforts and seemed to be working for more or less both sides.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 没错。而且他们获得了大量数据。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Exactly. And they were getting big numbers.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 霍曼先生，像您一样，我佩戴警徽、持枪29年。我认为，我关心这个国家的安全，我认为保护这个国家和我们社区的安全是我的职责。所以我认为最大的威胁是那些想来这个国家作恶的人。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: Mr. Hman, like you sir, I've carried a badge and guns for 29 years. I think it's um I care about the security of this country and I think it's my job to protect the security of this country and security of our communities. So I think the biggest threat is those that want to come to this country and do harm.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 而这正是**霍曼**当时在国会作证的内容。他确实在阐述**奥巴马政府**的这种做法是合理的。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: And this is something that Homeman at the time was testifying to in Congress. You know, really speaking to the idea that the Obama administration, their approach, it makes sense.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 我从事这项工作很久了，曾有一段时间我是一名街头探员。我们只是出去逮捕外国人，因为他们在这里违反了法律。我正在执行移民法，但归根结底，我产生了什么影响？与此同时，我逮捕了一个非法居留但可能没有犯下其他罪行的人，却有一个儿童性侵犯者从州监狱里走了出来，因为我们没有在全国所有监狱中设立机构。我们正在优先逮捕特定类型的人。我们正在追捕最危险的罪犯。我们不是随意抓人。我们在每个监狱都有一个虚拟的存在，当外国人被捕并录入指纹时，我们会发现这个外国人，我们可以对他采取行动并将其驱逐出境。这种监狱模式对他来说确实很有意义。**ICE**建立的策略是优先处理对国家安全构成威胁的外国人，以及对公共安全构成威胁的外国人，这对我来说是合理的。这是正确的事情。我们的目标是遣返**40万**人。让我们确保这**40万**人被计算在内。所以，我认为...
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: I've been doing this for a long time and there was a time when I was a street agent. We just go out and arrest aliens because they're here in violation of law. And I'm enforcing immigration law, but at the end of the day, what impact did I make? At the same time I'm arresting this person that's here illegally but maybe hasn't committed another crime, there's a child predator walking out of state prison because we didn't have uh presence in all the jails across the country. We're prioritizing the types of people we're arresting. We're going after the worst of the worst. And we're not just going out there willy-nilly picking up people. We have a virtual presence in every jail and when the alien gets arrested and fingerprinted, we're going to find out about that alien and we can take action on him and remove him from the country. This jail model really made sense to him. the the strategy ICE has built on prioritizing what we do on national security threat aliens, aliens that are threat to public safety, it makes sense to me. It's the right thing to do. We're built to remove 400,000 people. Let's make that 400,000 count. So, I think
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 那么，这种情况何时开始改变？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: and so when does this start to change?
### 庇护城市运动的兴起 **哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 嗯，你知道，**奥巴马政府**在遣返方面变得如此高效，以至于**奥巴马总统**开始被称为“遣返总司令”，对吧？“遣返总司令”，不是什么好称呼。没错，没错。他面临着移民倡导者和一些国会官员的强烈批评，他们对这种每年遣返数十万人的做法颇有微词。在此期间，一种日益增长的观念和运动开始出现，即城市应该成为**移民的庇护所**，他们应该受到移民执法的保护。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Well, you know, the Obama administration became so effective at deportations that President Obama started to be labeled the deorter chief, right? deorter and chief. Not in a good way. Exactly. Exactly. He was facing intense criticism from immigrant advocates and certain congressional officials who were quite critical of this approach where they were deporting hundreds of thousands of people a year. And during this time, there starts to become a growing idea, a growing movement toward the fact that cities should be a sanctuary for immigrants, that they should be protected from immigration enforcement.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 对。好的。插一句，因为我们**《The Daily》**最早的一集就是关于**庇护城市**这个概念的。这个想法实际上源于教堂决定将他们的圣所变成一个保护无证移民的地方。它在全国各地传播开来，最终成为全国各地的一个城市法律运动。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Right. All right. And just to jump in because one of the very first episodes of The Daily we ever did was about this idea of a sanctuary city. This idea literally emerges from church's decisions to turn their sanctuaries into a place that protects undocumented immigrants. It's spread around the country and eventually it becomes an urban legal movement in places all over the country.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 是的，没错。这成为了**庇护运动**的焦点，以确保地方执法部门不与**ICE**合作，不让**ICE**拥有那种将人员从地方拘留所高效输送到**ICE**拘留中心并最终遣返的渠道。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Yeah, that's right. And it it becomes a focus for the sanctuary movement to ensure that local law enforcement is not working with ICE and is not allowing ICE to have that efficient funnel of people from local lockups to detention centers for ICE and ultimately deportations.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 请提醒我们，为什么**庇护运动**最终会把重点放在地方执法部门上，他们提出的论点是什么。是的，有几个论点。一是社区中的移民会更愿意向地方执法部门提供线索、举报犯罪，更愿意与地方执法部门互动，因为他们知道地方执法部门不与**ICE**合作。所以在基本层面上，人们相信这会使社区更安全。其次，地方监狱通常不会因为与**ICE**互动或为**ICE**拘留人员而获得额外的资金。因此，地方司法管辖区确实存在成本。你知道，大约在那个时候，当**ICE**让这些监狱延长拘留时间以便他们能够来接人时，发生了几起诉讼，其中一些本不应为**ICE**被延长拘留的人被关押了。我认为这也让一些社区停了下来。简单解释一下，他们面临诉讼是因为那些为了让**ICE**能够来接走他们而被额外拘留的移民，实际上是代表我们所讨论的任何司法管辖区，仅仅为了让**ICE**有机会遣返他们，而面临着非法的额外惩罚。他们正在提起诉讼，听起来在某些案件中他们正在胜诉。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: And just remind us why the sanctuary movement ends up focusing on local law enforcement, what the argument they're making is. Yeah, there are several arguments. One is the idea that immigrants in a community will feel more willing to come forward to local law enforcement with tips, with reports of crime, more willing to interact with local law enforcement because they know that local law enforcement is not working with ICE. So that base level, there's a belief that it makes communities safer. And then local jails are typically not given money, extra money for interacting with ICE, for holding people for ICE. So there is a real cost to local jurisdictions. And you know around that time when ICE is getting these jails to hold people for a longer period of time so that they could come and pick them up, there were several lawsuits uh in which individuals who should not have been held longer for ICE were locked up. And I think that gave pause to some of these communities as well. And just to explain, they're facing lawsuits because those immigrants who are being held for extra days in order for ICE to be able to come and get them are essentially facing an illegal extra punishment on behalf of whatever jurisdiction we're talking about just so that ICE has a chance to deport them. They're suing and sounds like in some cases they're winning.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 是的。我认为这些诉讼向地方监狱和地方政治家表明，当**ICE**犯错时，你将承担责任。你将是被起诉的一方。你将面临这种额外的审查。我认为这为像**美国公民自由联盟**（**ACLU**）这样的组织提供了更多弹药，让他们指出这一点，说你们不想卷入其中。你们应该努力摆脱这种潜在的法律责任。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Yeah. And I think what these lawsuits showed local jails and local politicians was that when there's a mistake made by ICE, you're going to be on the hook. You're the one who's going to be sued. You're the one who's going to face this extra scrutiny. And I think it lent more ammo to organizations like the ACLU to point this out to say, you don't want to get involved with this. You should try to rid yourself of this potential liability.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 对吧？交给**ICE**。让他们做他们需要做的事情，但不要帮助他们。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Right? Leave it to ICE. Let them do what they need to do, but don't help them.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 没错。你知道，移民系统和刑事司法系统应该保持分离。活动家和移民倡导者认为，**ICE**抓捕的一些人可能在被捕后甚至没有被起诉，或者指控最终没有导致定罪。因此，这些人不一定符合罪犯的定义，但他们被逮捕并卷入了刑事司法系统，结果他们以不应有的方式被移交给**ICE**。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Exactly. You know, the immigration system and the criminal justice system should remain separate. And there's an argument from activists and immigrant advocates that some of these individuals that ISIS picked up have been maybe not even charged after they've been arrested or the charges ultimately don't lead to the conviction. And so these are individuals who don't necessarily uh meet the definition of a criminal, but they've been arrested and thrown into the criminal justice system and as a result um they are being transferred to ICE in a way that they should not be.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 所以**艾哈迈德**，一旦这种不合作的观念确立下来，它会是什么样子，又会变得多广泛？你知道，在**奥巴马政府**末期，像**加利福尼亚州**这样的地方开始抵制延长拘留时间以便**ICE**来接人的做法。所以，你看到**奥巴马政府**，在**汤姆·霍曼**任职期间，确实试图找到一种与这些自由派司法管辖区合作的方式。于是他们提出了这个想法：好吧，你们不必为我们延长拘留某人，但你们能否在某人获释前**48小时**通知我们，这样我们就可以在监狱里接走他们？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: H So Ahmed, once this idea of non-ooperation settles in, what does that look like and how broad does it become? You know, it's during this time toward the end of the Obama administration where places like California buck back at the idea of holding people longer so that ICE can come pick him up. So, you see the Obama administration really try to figure out a way, this is during the time when Tom Hman's there, to work with these liberal jurisdictions. So they come up with this idea that, okay, you don't have to hold on to somebody longer for us, but how about you notify us 48 hours before somebody's released from custody so that we could be there at the jail and pick them up?
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 所有这些责任，所有这些潜在的诉讼，嘿，你们不必担心。只要在某人获释前通知我们一声，你们就不需要再延长拘留他们了。所以某种低水平的合作仍在进行。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: All that liability, all this potential lawsuits, hey, you don't have to worry about that. Just give us a heads up before someone's released and you don't need to hold on to them longer. So some low level of cooperation is still happening.
### 特朗普政府时期的对抗加剧 **迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 是的。联邦政府将其作为一个选项提出，但随后**唐纳德·特朗普**以打击移民和遣返大量移民为基础赢得了总统职位。因此，许多这些进步城市开始以此为由，限制哪怕是这种程度的合作。在此期间，**加利福尼亚州**出台了一项广泛的**庇护州政策**，极大地限制了地方执法部门与**ICE**之间的合作和互动。很快，你开始看到全国各地的城市和司法管辖区采纳了限制与联邦政府和**ICE**任何形式合作的理念，因为这被视为帮助**特朗普总统**的一种方式。所以基本上，在这一点上，任何形式的合作都被关上了大门。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Yeah. The federal government offers it as an an option, but then Donald Trump wins the presidency on the basis of cracking down on immigration and deporting many immigrants. And so it becomes a cause for many of these progressive cities to limit even that level of collaboration. During this time, California puts in place an expansive sanctuary state policy, really limiting, severely limiting the cooperation and interaction between local law enforcement and ICE. And soon you start seeing cities and jurisdictions across the country taking up this idea of limiting any type of cooperation with the federal government and with ICE because it was seen as a way of helping President Trump. So basically at this point the door comes down on any form of any cooperation.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 是的。变得非常有限。我的意思是，监狱向**ICE**提供他们想要的移民释放日期信息的能力变得有限，仅限于非常特定的暴力罪犯、非常严重的罪犯。这让像**汤姆·霍曼**这样的人的生活变得更加困难，当**特朗普**上任时，他被任命管理**ICE**。他真的把**加利福尼亚州**和**庇护管辖区**、**庇护州**的整个概念作为他的事业。他对此不懈地关注。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Yeah. Becomes really limited. I mean, the ability for a jail to provide the release date information for an immigrant that ICE wants became limited for very specific type of violent criminal, very serious criminal. And that made life much more difficult for people like Tom H. Home. Homeman, who by the time Trump comes into office, he's put in place to run ICE. and he really makes California and this whole idea of a sanctuary jurisdiction, a sanctuary state a cause for him. He focuses on it relentlessly.
**汤姆·霍曼**: 我认为，**庇护城市**在我看来，引发了严重的警员安全和社区安全问题。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: Sanctuary cities, I think, in my opinion, raise a serious officer safety and community safety issue.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 而这段时间的大部分信息与我们现在听到的信息非常相似。对于我在**庇护城市**的县监狱里无法逮捕的每一个人，都意味着执法人员必须敲开一户人家的门去逮捕有犯罪记录的人，而他们本可以在县监狱的安全、保障和隐私环境中逮捕他。在**2017年6月**，他出席国会，告诉他们**庇护城市**的概念不仅通过将所谓的罪犯释放到社区中，而且使**ICE**更难找到这些人，从而降低了社区的安全性。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: And much of the message during this time is very similar to the message that we're hearing now. For every person that I can't arrest in a county jail in a sanctuary city means that a law enforcement officer has to knock on the door of a home to arrest somebody that has a criminal history when they could have arrested him in the safety and security and privacy of a county jail. In June of 2017, he goes in front of Congress and he tells them that the the idea of sanctuary cities makes it less safe for communities, not only by releasing alleged criminals into the communities, but making it harder for ICE to find these people.
**汤姆·霍曼**: **ICE**的男男女女夜不能归只是时间问题，因为他们不得不在家中逮捕一名犯罪外国人，而不是在**庇护城市**的县监狱中将其抓获。**庇护城市**对**ICE**的男男女女构成了危险。
Original English **Tom H. Homeman**: It's only a matter of time before when the men and women of ICE don't go home at night because they had to go arrest a criminal alien in a home rather than getting him in a county jail in a sanctuary city. that does the sanctuary cities is are are danger to the men and women of ICE
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 当他们进入这些社区，进入家中试图进行逮捕时，发生暴力对抗、人员处于危险之中的可能性更大，此外，更多的人仅仅因为出现在目标人物周围而被捕。他基本上是在说，**ICE**和一般的移民执法在无法获得我们认为特别需要进入你们监狱的权限时，情况最糟糕，也最具对抗性。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: and when they go into these communities and they go to homes and they try to make these arrests there's a greater possibility of a violent confrontation of people being in danger and on top of that more people being arrested just for being around some of the targets. He's basically saying ICE and immigration enforcement in general is at its worst and it's most confrontational when we don't get the access that we believe we need to your jails in particular.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 是的，没错。但最终**特朗普**变得更加强硬。他的言辞变得更具攻击性，这些城市和司法管辖区真的没有途径重新上线并与**ICE**合作。这被视为这些社区保护其移民免受**特朗普**在第一届**特朗普政府**期间带来的冲击的唯一途径或主要途径之一。最终，**霍曼**和政府就这项真正广泛、前所未有的全州**庇护政策**起诉**加利福尼亚州**的努力失败了，**霍曼**和**ICE**未能获得更多进入监狱的权限，反而更少了。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Yeah, exactly. But ultimately Trump became harsher. his language became more aggressive and these cities and these jurisdictions really there was no pathway for them to come back online and work with ICE. It was seen as the only way or one of the main ways for these communities to protect their immigrants uh from the onslaught that Trump was bringing to them during that first Trump administration and ultimately Homeman and the administration's efforts to sue California over this really expansive unprecedented statewide sanctuary policy that failed and Homeman and ICE they weren't able to get more access to jails, they they got less.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 所以，当**汤姆·霍曼**上周来到**明尼阿波利斯**，告诉当地官员，只要让我们进入你们的监狱，一切都会好起来时。他非常清楚，因为他亲身经历了这段历史，知道这并非易事。在全国许多地方，这已被法律明确规定为不可接受。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: So, by the time Tom H. Homeman ends up in Minneapolis last week and is telling local officials, just give us access to your jails and everything will be copacetic. He knows full well, cuz he's lived through the whole history of this that that's not a simple thing. It's been legally codified as unacceptable in many, many places around the country.
**哈米德·阿里·阿齐兹**: 是的。没错。你知道，**霍曼**非常清楚。他知道在**明尼阿波利斯**与**ICE**密切合作，允许**ICE**进入地方监狱的想法在政治上是行不通的。但他也认识到，允许某种程度的合作，某种与**ICE**合作的努力，可能真的是双方的一个出路。
Original English **Hammed Ali Aziz**: Yeah. Exactly. You know, H Homeman is well aware. He knows that this idea of working closely with ICE, allowing ICE into local jails in Minneapolis is a political non-starter. But he also recognizes that the idea of allowing some cooperation, some effort to work with ICE could really be a way, an offramp for both sides
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 可以说他们在这场斗争中赢得了一些东西，现在他们可以摆脱这场危机了。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: to say that they won something in this battle and now they can move on from this crisis.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: **哈米德**，非常感谢。谢谢你邀请我。休息过后，**埃内斯托·隆达诺**将讲述**明尼阿波利斯**如何应对**特朗普政府**最新的合作要求。我们马上回来。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Muhammad, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. After the break, Ernesto Landono on how Minneapolis is navigating the Trump administration's latest demands for cooperation. We'll be right back.
### 明尼阿波利斯的应对 **迈克尔·巴巴罗**: **埃内斯托**，你在**明尼阿波利斯**。你住在那儿。跟我们谈谈**汤姆·霍曼**和政府向**明尼阿波利斯**领导人提出的这些合作要求在当地是如何展开的。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Ernesto, you're in Minneapolis. It's where you live. talk to us about how these demands for cooperation from Tom Hman and the administration to leaders in Minneapolis are playing out there on the ground.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 嗯，**汤姆·霍曼**在这里待了几天。他会见了州长、**明尼阿波利斯**市长、**圣保罗**市长，但可以说，我认为他最重要的会面之一，却是最少受到关注的。他会见了**亨内平县**警长**达娜·维特**。这件事之所以重要，是因为**维特警长**负责管理该州最大的监狱，也是唯一一个明确表示不与**ICE**合作的监狱。所以，如果该州目前有一个人，可以在其权限下的政策层面，为政府带来一场巨大的胜利，一个奖杯，可以说，让他们摆脱这场移民打击，那就是**维特警长**。那么这个监狱的故事是怎样的呢？这个听起来**汤姆·霍曼**非常关注的监狱，以及它与移民执法的不合作关系。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: Well, Tom Hman has been here for a couple of days. He's met with the governor, with the mayor of Minneapolis, with the mayor of St. Paul, but arguably, I think the most consequential meeting he's had is one of the ones that has drawn the least amount of attention. He met with Henipin County Sheriff Dana Wit. The reason this matters is that Sheriff Wit oversees the largest jail in the state and the only one that has a clear-cut policy saying that they will not cooperate with ICE. So if there's one person in the state currently who could as a matter of policy under her authority, you know, kind of give the administration a big win, a trophy, so to speak, to, you know, walk away from this immigration crackdown, it's Sheriff Wit. And what's the story of this jail? This jail that it sounds like Tom Hman is very focused on and its non relationship to immigration enforcement.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 是的，这个监狱有一个非常有趣的故事，它与**美国****庇护运动**的更广泛历程紧密相连。所以，你知道，如果你稍微回溯一下，回到**奥巴马时代**，**亨内平县监狱**有一项政策，他们实际上允许**ICE**探员在设施内保留一个很小的办公室。那就像一个储物间。当时这里的警长所做的是，他允许探员面试被关押在监狱里的移民，以评估他们是否可被遣返，并确定**ICE**是否想在他们不再受州拘留的那一刻将他们带走。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: Yeah, this jail has a really interesting story that really dovetales the broader journey of the sanctuary movement in the United States. So, you know, if you rewind the tape a little bit and go back to the Obama years, the Henipin County Jail had a policy where they actually allowed ICE agents to keep a tiny little office in the facility. It was like the equivalent of a broom closet. Huh. And what the sheriff here at the time did was he allowed agents to interview immigrants who were booked into the jail to assess whether or not they were deportable and to figure out whether or not ICE wanted to grab them the moment that they were no longer going to be in state custody.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 这真是太令人着迷了，这种配合如此紧密。那是深层次的协调。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: That's really fascinating that that's so handinand glove. That's a deep level of coordination.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 没错。**明尼苏达州**的警长是民选官员，所以他们必须竞选公职，并回应选民对这些问题的感受和想法。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: That's right. And sheriffs in Minnesota are elected officials, so they have to run for office and be responsive to what the electorate is feeling and thinking about these issues.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 嗯。在**2018年大选**中，那位已任职十多年的警长以微弱劣势落败。而击败他的人竞选时的一个议题就是取消与**ICE**的合作。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: Mhm. And in the 2018 election, the sheriff, who had been in office for over a decade, lost his race by a tiny margin. And one of the issues that the guy who beat him campaigned on was rescending cooperation with ICE.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 所以我们当时正处于一个人们对**特朗普政府**推行的**家庭分离政策**感到愤怒的时刻，移民问题已经成为一个极具争议和党派色彩的问题。因此，在这样一个充满政治紧张的移民时期，一位新警长上任，并在几个月内逐步减少了与**ICE**的合作，最初是将他们赶出监狱，最终是不再在面临遣返的移民被拘留时通知他们，也不再在个人即将获释时通知**ICE**。所以基本上，**ICE**再也没有那个储物间了。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: So we were in a moment where people were outraged by the family separation policy that the Trump administration had been pursuing and immigration had become both a very divisive and a very partisan issue. So you have a new sheriff who comes into office at this fraught political time over immigration and over a period of months wound down cooperation with ICE initially by kicking them out of the jail and eventually by not notifying them when immigrants who were subject to deportation were booked or informing ICE when individuals were going to be due for release. So no more broom closet for ICE basically.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 没错。他们被赶出去了。然而，我认为重要的是要记住，与**ICE**之间仍然存在大量的合作。如果你看看州监狱系统，无论是根据法规还是政策，他们总是在一名被判重罪的个人即将获释时通知**ICE**。这些个人以一种非常务实和合作的方式移交给**ICE**。你只需打电话给**ICE**探员，让他们知道，早上**9点**到某个监狱，然后我们将人从我们的羁押移交给你们。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Exactly. They were out. However, I think it's important to remember that there was still a significant amount of cooperation with ICE. When you looked at the state prison system, which as a matter of both statute and policy, they always notify ICE when an individual who is serving time on a serious charge is going to be released. And those individuals are handed over to ICE in a very kind of pragmatic and cooperative style. You just call up the ICE agent, let them know, be here at such and such prison at 9:00 in the morning and here's your guy from our custody to yours.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 至于该州的其他监狱，情况就有点棘手了。我认为这取决于不同的警长，他们愿意投入多少精力和时间与**ICE**合作。过去，这个问题对该州的县来说一直具有法律挑战性。至少有几个司法管辖区发生了诉讼，法院裁定地方监狱在**ICE**的要求下拘留人员的时间超出了其合法权限，导致向移民支付了赔偿。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: When it comes to other jails in the state, it's been a little trickier. I think it varies sheriff to sheriff just how much effort and time they want to put into cooperating with ICE. And in the past, this issue has been legally challenging for counties in the state. There's been lawsuits in at least a couple of jurisdictions that resulted in payouts to immigrants after the courts found that local jails had exceeded their authority in detaining people at ISIS request longer than they legally had permission to do so.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 没错。**艾哈迈德**谈到了这种现象。最终，这些监狱及其所在的社区在财务上要为这些法律挑战承担责任，这成为了一个真正的合作障碍。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Right. Hmed talked about this phenomenon. It ends up being the case that the jails and the communities where these jails are located are on the hook financially for those legal challenges which becomes a real disincentive to play ball.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 没错。但我认为这里有各种各样的警长，你知道，在郊区县、在农村县。我想说，大多数警长在某种程度上都与**ICE**合作。唯一的例外仍然是**亨内平县**，它至今仍坚持不打算以任何方式与**ICE**合作。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: That's right. But I think what you have is a mix of sheriffs here, you know, in suburban counties, in rural counties. I would say, you know, most sheriffs cooperate with ICE to some degree. The one exception continues to be Henipin County, which up to this point maintains that they do not intend to work with ICE in any way, shape, or form.
### 警长达娜·维特的困境 **迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 那么，谈谈这位**亨内平县警长**现在所处的境地。她面临着以**汤姆·霍曼**为代表的联邦政府的压力，他们说：“我们只要求这一件事。”我不得不想象，从某种意义上说，他们让她觉得她阻碍了**ICE**和**边境巡逻队**在**明尼阿波利斯**减少人员，因为她站在那里说：“我不会给你你想要的东西。”
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, talk about the position that this Henipin County Sheriff is now in. She's got the federal government in the form of Tom Hman bearing down on her and saying, "We're asking this one thing." And I have to imagine in a sense they're making her feel like she stands in the way of ICE and Border Patrol drawing down their numbers in Minneapolis because she's standing there and saying, "I won't give you this thing you want."
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 是的。是的，这真的很有趣，因为在**特朗普政府**的信息中，他们对**州长蒂姆·沃尔兹**、对**明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗莱**都非常强硬，但他们两人基本上都表示，要么我们已经与**ICE**合作了（州长和监狱系统方面），要么市长对监狱没有监督权。所以，我认为每个人都开始看向警长**达娜·维特**，说如果有一个人能够做出真正实质性的举动来安抚**特朗普政府**，那就是**达娜**，对吧？
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting because in the messaging from the Trump administration, you know, they've gone really hard after Governor Tim Walls, after Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry, but both of them have essentially said we either already cooperated with ICE um as it pertains to the governor and the prison system and the mayor has no oversight over jails. So, I think everybody's starting to look at Dana Wit, the sheriff, and say if there's one person who could, you know, make a real substantive move that might appease the Trump administration, it's Dana, right?
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 但问题是，你知道，她是一个需要通过选举产生并对她的选民负责的人。**达娜·维特**是在**乔治·弗洛伊德事件**之后当选的，你知道，当时**明尼阿波利斯**和该县的政治风向确实转向了左翼。她在我看来，骨子里是一个政治哲学上的中间派。我认为她是一个务实主义者，但她某种程度上是乘着**乔治·弗洛伊德**遇害后那股愤怒的浪潮上任的，当时人们对**特朗普政府**非常不满，移民权利团体拥有很大的政治影响力。所以，如果她做出一个她的选民会认为她向**特朗普政府**屈服，并基本上向**ICE**敞开监狱大门的举动，你可以想象这在当前对她的政治生涯将是具有破坏性的。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: The problem though is, you know, here is somebody who needs to be elected and be responsive to her constituents. Dana Wit got elected in the aftermath of the George Floyd era, you know, where the politics in Minneapolis and the county, you know, really veered to the left. And she's somebody who I think is at heart a centrist in her political philosophy. She's somebody who I think is a pragmatist, but she sort of rode the wave of anger that followed the killing of George Floyd during a time when people were really upset at the Trump administration where immigrant right groups had a lot of political power. So if she were to make a move that her constituents would see as her having capitulated to the Trump administration and essentially flinging the doors to the jail open to ice, you would assume that would be politically damaging for her in this moment.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 嗯。那么她对自己的计划说了些什么？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Mhm. So what has she said about what she plans to do?
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 她公开说得很少。她一直非常批评移民探员过去几周的行事方式。你知道，他们在这里杀害了两名**美国公民**。这些移民行动一直非常混乱和具有破坏性。但**达娜·维特**到目前为止，至少在公开场合，并没有真正介入这场关于监狱的讨论。我一直试图采访她，但她还没有真正准备好出来参与，你知道，表明她是否愿意，你知道，作为僵局的一部分，做出一个大胆的举动。她发布的关于她与**汤姆·霍曼**会面的报告非常简短，而且，你知道，有些模糊。她称他们的谈话是坦诚和建设性的，但她没有以任何方式、形式表明她正在重新审视她在监狱的政策，或者正在探讨一项可能的协议。只是为了理解，因为你主要在谈论这位警长在法律上所处的政治困境，即使她愿意，**维特警长**能否与联邦政府合作并开放监狱？
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: She has said very little publicly. She's been very critical of the way immigration agents have conducted business over the past few weeks. You know, they've killed two American citizens here. These immigration rates have been very chaotic and disruptive. But Dana Wit so far has not really inserted herself publicly at least into this conversation about jails and prisons. I've been trying to interview her, but she hasn't really been ready to come out and engage and, you know, say whether or not she's willing to, you know, be the one who makes a bold move as part of the standoff. The readout she put out about her meeting with Tom Hman was very short and, you know, somewhat vague. She called their conversation candid and constructive, but she did not indicate in any way, shape, or form that she's starting to revisit her policy at the jail or that there could be a deal on the table that she's exploring. Just to understand because you're mostly talking about the political predicament that this sheriff is in legally, even if she wanted to, could sheriff wit cooperate with the federal government and open up the jail?
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 所以，我的理解是这里有两件事是相互重叠的。一是县级政策由县委员制定，他们也是民选官员，他们有一项关于**ICE**合作的分离条例，但它涉及一些简单的问题，比如县财产和停车场不能被**ICE**探员用来进行行动。至于监狱，我的理解是**维特警长**可以单方面决定改变政策。例如，开始向**ICE**提供信息，或者在她办公室和当地**ICE**探员之间建立沟通渠道，并开始听取他们关于某人何时获释的信息请求。理论上，她也可以决定再次向**ICE**探员开放监狱，并允许他们轻松进入。据我所知，这在她的职权范围内，但从政治上讲，对于一位我认为打算竞选连任的警长来说，这将是一个非常困难且可能具有破坏性的举动。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: So, it's my understanding that there's kind of two overlapping things happening here. One is at the county level policy is set by county commissioners who are also elected officials and they have a separation ordinance as it pertains to ICE cooperation but it you know addresses kind of simple issues such as the fact that county property and parking lots can't be used by ICE agents to stage their operations. Mhm. When it comes to the jail, my understanding is that Sheriff Witz could unilaterally decide to change the policy. For instance, to start providing information to ICE or to open up a line of communication between her office and the local ICE agents and to start heeding their requests for information about when somebody's going to be released. you know, she could theoretically also decide to once again open the jail to ICE agents and to allow them kind of easy access. It is, as I understand it, within her purview, but politically, I think it'd be a really difficult and conceivably damaging move for a sheriff who I think intends to run for reelection,
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 对吧？问题是，如果她允许**ICE边境巡逻队**开始与监狱协调，那到底是为了什么？因为归根结底，**明尼阿波利斯**或全国任何地方的这些地方官员有什么保证，如果他们满足**汤姆·霍曼**和政府的要求，如果他们敞开监狱大门，如果他们让**ICE**回到角落里的储物间，协调释放，然后逮捕和遣返，那么**ICE**和**边境巡逻队**的探员就会开始离开城市，或者他们的行动会变得不那么对抗性？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: right? And the question would be if she were to let ICE Border Patrol start coordinating with the jail, to what end exactly? Because at the end of the day, what kind of assurances do any of these local officials have in Minneapolis or really anywhere in the country that if they meet Tom Hman's demands and the administration's demands, if they fling open the doors to this jail, if they let ICE back into a broom closet in the corner and coordinate release and then arrest and deportation, that then ICE and Border Patrol agents would start to leave the city or that their operations would go back to being less confrontational.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 我的意思是，如果你做出这个姿态，如果你向他们开放**亨内平县监狱**，这一切就会消失，这绝对没有任何保证。你知道，很难夸大该州民选官员与**特朗普政府**在这些问题上目前存在的信任度有多低。这是一个人们感到被联邦政府围困的州。他们觉得这项行动真的、真的对人们的生计造成了严重损害。它已经导致两人死亡，并且确实使地方和联邦执法机构之间长期以来的关系紧张。但它也归结为这些政策的原则问题。一些警察部门和**亨内平县警长办公室**决定不参与移民事务的原因是，他们觉得这会侵蚀他们所服务社区的信任。所以，如果他们在这方面做出重大让步，他们将基本上是在原则问题上屈服，而且这样做没有任何保证，即这会让他们承受来自**特朗普政府**的更小压力，甚至减少街头移民执法。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: I mean, there's absolutely no guarantee that if you make this gesture, if you were to open Henipin County Jail to them, that this would all go away. You know, it's hard to overstate how little trust exists currently between elected officials in the state and the Trump administration on these issues. This is a state where people feel besieged by the federal government. They feel that this operation is really, really doing serious damage to people's livelihoods. It's resulted in two deaths already and it's really strained long-standing relationships between local and federal law enforcement agencies. Mhm. But it also, you know, boils down to the principle about these policies. The reason some police departments and the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office have decided they don't want to be involved in immigration stuff is because they feel it erodess trust with the community they serve. So if they were to make a big concession on this, they would be essentially capitulating on a matter of principle and they would be doing so with no guarantee that this would subject them to less pressure from the Trump administration or even less immigration enforcement out in the streets.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 嗯，非常感谢。我们很感激。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
**埃内斯托·隆达诺**: 谢谢你，**迈克尔**。
Original English **Ernesto Londano**: Thank you, Michael.
**迈克尔·巴巴罗**: 周末，一名联邦法官命令**特朗普政府**释放一名**5岁男孩**及其父亲。几周前，他们在**明尼阿波利斯**郊区被拘留，引发了全国范围的愤怒。该案法官称，这名男孩（被捕时背着**蜘蛛侠背包**，戴着一顶超大的蓬松蓝色冬帽）的拘留是违宪的，并称之为“施加残忍”。我们马上回来。以下是您今天还需要了解的其他新闻。对于全国共和党人来说，这是一个不祥的信号：一名民主党人周末在**德克萨斯州**的一场重要特别选举中取得了决定性胜利，赢得了**特朗普总统**一年多前以超过**17个百分点**优势获胜的选区。民主党人**泰勒·拉梅特**，一位当地工会领袖和首次参选的候选人，在**沃思堡**市附近的一个重要州参议院席位选举中，击败了共和党对手、保守派活动家**李·沃曼斯**。**拉梅特**的胜利甚至发生在**特朗普总统**支持其对手之后，这增强了民主党人日益增长的信心，即他们今年秋天重新控制**众议院**的机会仍然很高。最新政府公布的与**杰弗里·爱泼斯坦**有关的文件，是迄今为止最大规模的一次公布，揭示了他与该国几位最富有、最有权势的人之间的关系。电子邮件显示，**爱泼斯坦**与**埃隆·马斯克**多次互发信息，并曾邀请**马斯克**到他在**维尔京群岛**的住所。另一封**爱泼斯坦**写给自己的电子邮件声称，**爱泼斯坦**曾帮助**比尔·盖茨**发生婚外性行为，这一说法**盖茨**予以否认。几封电子邮件显示，**爱泼斯坦**曾将**纽约巨人队**的老板**史蒂夫·蒂什**介绍给几位女性，**爱泼斯坦**用粗俗的语言描述了她们。最后，电子邮件显示，现任商务部长**霍华德·卢特尼克**曾计划在**2012年**访问**爱泼斯坦**的岛屿，尽管**卢特尼克**此前声称他早在**7年前**就已与**爱泼斯坦**断绝了所有联系。本期节目由**安娜·弗利**、**亚历克斯·斯特恩**、**瑞奇·内维茨基**和**穆吉·扎代**制作。由**迈克尔·贝努瓦**和**利兹·奥·巴伦**编辑。音乐由**罗文·米斯托**、**艾丽西亚·鲍普**和**丹·鲍威尔**创作，由**克里斯·伍德**担任工程师。本期**《The Daily》**到此结束。我是**迈克尔·巴巴罗**。明天见。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Over the weekend, a federal judge ordered the Trump administration to release a 5-year-old boy and his father, whose detention in suburban Minneapolis a few weeks ago, had spurred nationwide outrage. The judge in the case called the detention of the boy, who was wearing a Spider-Man backpack and an oversized fluffy blue winter hat when he was captured, unconstitutional and quote, the imposition of cruelty. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. In an ominous sign for national Republicans, a Democrat decisively won a major special election in Texas over the weekend, carrying a district that President Trump won by more than 17 points a little over a year ago. The Democrat Taylor Ramett, a local union leader and firsttime candidate, trounced the Republican in the race, conservative activist Lee Wamans in an election for a major state senate seat around the city of Fort Worth. Ramett's victory came even after President Trump endorsed his rival, and it reinforced Democrats growing confidence that their chances of winning back control of the House this fall remain high. And the latest government release of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, the single largest release to date, sheds new light on his relationship with several of the country's richest and most powerful men. The emails show that Epstein exchanged multiple messages with Elon Musk and had invited Musk to his compound in the Virgin Islands. Another email written by Epstein to himself claimed that Epstein had helped Bill Gates have extrammarital sex. a claim Gates denies. Several emails show that Epstein connected the owner of the New York Giants, Steve Tish, with several women whom Epstein described in vulgar terms. Finally, emails showed that Howard Lutnik, now commerce secretary, planned a visit to Epstein's island in 2012, despite Lutnik previously claiming that he had severed all ties with Epstein 7 years earlier. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley, Alex Stern, Ricky Nevetski, and Mooj Zadei. It was edited by Michael Benois and Liz O. Balen. Contains music by Rowan Misto, Alicia Baup, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Babaro. See you tomorrow.