--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-10-23' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0zkwLizuvc speaker: TVO Today tags: - industrial-subsidies - tariff-response - municipal-elections - energy-policy - autonomous-vehicles title: 福特与卡尼的钢铁汽车救援包、安省市政选举冲刺与电费补贴削减 summary: 本期节目聚焦加拿大联邦与安省政府联合推出的近90亿加元钢铁及汽车产业救援方案；随后展望多伦多、密西沙加及渥太华等地的市政选举选情；接着讨论安省削减三分之一电费补贴以控制财政赤字的政策；最后探讨Waymo自动驾驶汽车进军多伦多面临的挑战，并回顾安省历史上的政治轶事。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: macro-economy area: geopolitics project: [] people: - Doug Ford - Mark Carney - Olivia Chow - Brad Bradford - Bonnie Crombie - Carolyn Parrish - Alvin Tedjo - Mark Sutcliffe companies_orgs: - Liaison Strategies - Waymo - TVO products_models: [] media_books: - The Revenge of the Methodist Bicycle Company status: evergreen --- ### 开场与节目一百万次下载里程碑 **Steve Paikin**: 欢迎大家收听 OnPoli 播客。我是 Steve Paikin。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Welcome everyone to the OnPoli podcast. I'm Steve Paikin.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我是 John Michael McGrath。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And I'm John Michael McGrath.
**Steve Paikin**: 今天节目里，总理与安大略省省长公布了一项近90亿加元的救援方案，旨在救助我们省的钢铁和汽车行业。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Today on the pod, the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario unveil a nearly $9 billion rescue package aimed at our province's steel and auto sectors.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这是我们在周一早上8点之前的最后一次市政选举观察，届时超过400个安大略省的市镇将举行地方选举。我们希望大家都能去投票。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: It's our final municipal election watch before 8:00 a.m. on Monday when more than 400 Ontario municipalities host local elections. We hope you plan to vote.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，我们确实希望如此。在每年耗资数十亿加元补贴电费之后，看来该省正在对这项政策踩刹车。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes, we do. After subsidizing the cost of electricity to the tune of billions of dollars a year, it looks like the province is pumping the brakes
**John Michael McGrath**: 踩刹车了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: on that.
**Steve Paikin**: 在“你的专栏，我的专栏”环节，我将探讨无人驾驶汽车对多伦多可能意味着什么。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: And in your column my column, I'll look at what driverless cars could mean for Toronto.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我写了一篇关于过去六十年里两位市政政坛巨头的文章：90岁的 David Crombie 和将近86岁的 John Sewell。两位都是前多伦多市长，两位都是传奇人物，而且这么多年过去了，两人关系依然相当不错。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And I've got a piece up on two of the great lions of municipal politics over the past six decades. 90-year-old David Crombie and almost 86-year-old John Sewell. Both Toronto mayors, both legends, and both getting along rather fine after all these years.
**Steve Paikin**: 今天是2026年10月23日，星期五。让我们开始吧。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: It's Friday, October 23rd, 2026. So, let's get to it.
**John Michael McGrath**: JMM，这周可不只是普通的糖。这是——
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: JMM, this is not just normal sugar this week. This is
**Steve Paikin**: 庆祝的糖。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: celebratory sugar.
**John Michael McGrath**: 庆祝的糖，因为发生了什么？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: A celebratory sugar because what happened?
**Steve Paikin**: 呃，我们在播客上达到了100万次下载。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh we got 1 million downloads on the
**John Michael McGrath**: 发现自节目开播以来，作为播客已经被下载了100万次。多少年了？谁还记得呢？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: discovered that we have been downloaded as a podcast a million times since the show was created. How many years ago? Who can remember?
**Steve Paikin**: 在我们的粉丝群体里。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: in our fan base here.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 我觉得太棒了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] I think it's wonderful.
**Steve Paikin**: 太棒了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: wonderful.
**John Michael McGrath**: 太好了。这是一个真正的里程碑。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Great. It's a real milestone.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 下载量。这真的很了不起。当然，这并不意味着他们真听了或真看了，但确实意味着他们下载了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: downloads. That's really something. Now, it that doesn't mean they actually listened to it or watched it, but it does mean they downloaded it.
**Steve Paikin**: 好吧，我的坦白是，我把我家里所有的电脑都设置成一遍又一遍地重复下载这个播客 [笑声]。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: okay, my confession is I have set all of the computers in my house just download the podcast [laughter] over and over and over again.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是啊，你确实做得出这种事。现在，我看着你今天穿的T恤，再次对那些只听播客看不到画面的听众说明一下，我完全看不懂这图案。所以，来吧，解释一下，Moosie。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yeah, I would not put that past you actually. Now, I'm looking at your t-shirt today and again for those who are listening on podcast and can't see it, it makes no sense to me. So, go ahead ex- explain, Moosie.
### T恤轶事与历史政治人物回顾 **Steve Paikin**: 我以前穿过这件。为了给大家描述一下，这是一只海狸和一只鸭子合体变成了鸭嘴兽。我第一次穿这件衣服时还不知道——后来我们忠实的粉丝大军迅速告知我——这是对动画片《七龙珠Z》（Dragon Ball Z）的致敬。我想在加拿大我们得把它念成“Dragon Ball Zed”，但其实没人这么念，在日本也是念“Dragon Ball Z”。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: I have worn this one before and this so to describe it for the people, this is a beaver and a duck joining forces and becoming a platypus. And what I did not know the first time that I wore this shirt and I I quickly informed by our legion of devoted fans is that this is a reference to the cartoon Dragon Ball Z. I I think for Canadian purposes I would be required to call it Dragon Ball Z except it's except no one calls it Japan.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声]
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter]
**Steve Paikin**: 所以这……你知道我从来没看过这动画。我有好多朋友是《七龙珠Z》的粉丝，但它从来都不是我的菜，所以我就不尝试去解释这个梗了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: So this is a you know what I never watched the show. I I have many friends who are fans of Dragon Ball Z. It just never was one of my things so I'm not going to try to explain the reference.
**John Michael McGrath**: 因为你的孩子和我的孩子年纪不一样。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Cuz you cuz your kids and my kids are not the same age.
**Steve Paikin**: 对。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Right.
**John Michael McGrath**: 所以我看过这动画。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So I have watched the show.
**Steve Paikin**: 哇。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Oh wow.
**John Michael McGrath**: 因为我孩子小时候正好放这个。好吧，所以我也算……但我不敢说自己是狂热粉丝，不像皮卡丘（Pikachu）、电击兽（Electabuzz）和那些……那是什么片子来着？哦，宝可梦（Pokémon）。不像宝可梦那样。但我当年确实看过一点《七龙珠Z》。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Cuz it was on when my kids were little kids. Okay. So I do I I wouldn't say I'm an aficionado on it not like Pikachu and Electabuzz and all of those other what show was that? Oh Pokémon. Not like the Pokémon show. But I did watch a bit of Dragon Ball Z back in the day.
**Steve Paikin**: 好吧。但我穿这件衣服的另一个原因，是因为今天刚好是我孩子11岁生日，我问“嘿，今天你来挑我穿哪件T恤”，于是我的孩子选了这件。所以宝贝，生日快乐！爸爸妈妈非常爱你，正如答应你的，我把这件衣服穿上了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Okay. But the other reason I'm wearing this shirt is because it happens to be my kids 11th birthday today and I asked hey you get to pick the shirt I wear and so my kid picked this one. So happy birthday sweetie. Mommy and daddy love you very much and as promised I'm wearing the shirt.
**John Michael McGrath**: 你怎么从来没对我说过你非常爱我？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: How come you never tell me you love me very much?
**Steve Paikin**: 我和你的关系，比起我和我孩子的关系 [笑声]，稍微还是有点不一样的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: I have a slightly different relationship with you than I do with [laughter] my child.
**John Michael McGrath**: 行吧。好吧，我觉得你孩子今天帮你挑衣服真是太棒了。孩子现在多大了？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Okay. Well okay I think that's wonderful that your child picked your shirt out today and and how old is the child now?
**Steve Paikin**: 11岁。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: 11.
**John Michael McGrath**: 11岁，太棒了，生日快乐。好了，你知道我平时大多数时候喜欢穿印着已故省长的T恤。嗯，这家伙的故事非常离奇。我选这件是因为在1942年，距今整整84年前的这个星期，Gordon Conant 成为了安大略省省长。我可以向你保证，收看或收听本节目的99.99%的人从来没听说过这家伙。我要站起来展示给大家看。看，这就是 Gordon Conant。 大家没听说过他是有非常充分的原因的，我正要解释。你可能听说过一个叫 Mitch Hepburn 的人。Mitch Hepburn 在1934年首次当选安大略省省长。他在1937年获得连任。他是我们有史以来最年轻的省长。我想他当时有多大？他首次当选时大概37岁吧。坦白说，他有点特朗式风格（Trumpian）。他有点过于民粹。他把所有的豪华轿车都卖掉了。他把省督府的官邸也卖掉了。他非常专注于民粹主义。但当了几年省长之后，他彻底厌烦了，受够了。于是他沿着省议会（Queen's Park）的走廊走向他的司法厅长（Attorney General）办公室，也就是 Gordon Conant 的办公室，并说：“我受够了，你来接班。” Gordon Conant 就是这样当上安省省长的。嗯，Conant 成为了第12任省长。到了某个节点，他说：“我认为我确实应该召开一次党领袖选举大会来确认我的领导权。省长随口说一句‘我不干了，你来接班’，这并不合规矩。这些事情本来不该是这样运作的。”于是，他们召开了党领袖选举大会。 Gordon Conant 在大会正式开始前突发心脏病。他不得不退选，结果大会确认了 Harry Nixon 为下一任安省省长，即第13任安省省长。而 Harry Nixon 的儿子 Robert Nixon，天哪，他多大了？我想他有98岁高龄了，现在依然健在，住在安省的布兰特县（Brant County）。所以，关于 Gordon Conant，现在你们知道了。现在你们了解了。 还有一件事，这真是一个有趣的时刻。Hepburn 当省长的时候，保守党党领是一个叫 Earl Rowe 的人。我们现在说的是20世纪30年代的事。到了60年代，Earl Rowe 被任命为安大略省省督。我上周末去了马尼图林岛（Manitoulin Island），随性而行嘛。你知道的，仅仅为了过个周末就开车开7个小时去小木屋，有何不可呢？我在戈尔湾（Gore Bay）去了一个跳蚤市场兼古董展，看看我找到了什么！太神奇了。Sheldon，我拿起来展示一下，也许你能给它拍个特写。这是一枚印有前省督 Earl Rowe 头像的纪念章。 所以，我自然必须买下它。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: 11 years old. Fantastic. Happy birthday. All right. You know I like to wear shirts of dead premiers most of the time. Um this guy's got a really bizarre story. The reason I picked this one is because in 1942 84 years ago this week Gordon Conant became premier of Ontario. I can guarantee you 99.99% of the people watching or listening to this have never heard of this guy. I'm going to stand up and show him. There's Gordon Conant. Now people have not heard of him for a very good reason and I'm about to explain why. You may have heard of a guy named Mitch Hepburn. Mitch Hepburn was premier of Ontario for the first time in 34. He got reelected in 37. He was the youngest premier we ever had. I think he was how old was he? 37 years old I think when he got elected for the first time. And he was a bit Trumpian frankly. He was a bit you know overly populist. He sold off all the limousines. He sold off the lieutenant governor's residence. He was very sort of focused on populism. But after a number of years of being premier, he just got fed up. And he just had enough. And he walked down the hall at Queen's Park to his Attorney General's office, Gordon Conant's, and he said, "I've had enough. You take over." And that's how Gordon Conant became Premier of Ontario. Um Conant became the 12th premier. At a certain point, he said, "I think I really should call a leadership convention to confirm my leadership. It's not really kosher for the premier just to sort of say, 'I'm quitting, you take over.' That's not really the way these things are supposed to work." So, they called a leadership convention. Gordon Conant had a heart attack before the convention actually started. He had to drop out, and as a result, the convention confirmed Harry Nixon as the next premier of Ontario, the 13th premier of Ontario. And Harry Nixon's son, Robert Nixon, is I think 90 Oh my gosh, how old is he? I think he's 98 years old and still alive living in Brant County in Ontario. So, Gordon Conant, now you know. Now you know. Now, one more thing. This is a real moment here. When Hepburn was the premier, the leader of the Conservative Party was a guy named Earl Rowe. We're going back to the 1930s now. In the 1960s, Earl Rowe was appointed the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario. I was on Manitoulin Island last weekend, as one does. You know, 7-hour drive to the cottage just for the weekend, why not? I went to a flea market {slash} antique show in Gore Bay, and look what I found. This was amazing. Sheldon, I'm going to put this up, maybe you can grab a shot of this. This is a medallion featuring the image of former Lieutenant Governor Earl Rowe. So, naturally, I had to buy it.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，当然得买。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yeah, of course.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这绝对是我花得最值的两块钱。所以，Robbie White，我是在你的跳蚤市场买的，非常感谢你愿意割爱。但在当年，出于某种原因，省督的肖像会被铸造在奖章上，背面大概写着“加拿大国家博览会”（CNE）。所以要么是能买到，要么是他们在 CNE 上派发的，上面印着 Earl Rowe。所以啊，杜蒙（D2 Mont），跟上节奏啊！来吧，让我们看看印有你头像的奖章。也许明年你可以在 CNE 上派发这些。不管怎样，我觉得很酷，所以就买了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And it's the best two bucks I ever spent. So, Robbie White, you was your flea market I bought this at. Thanks very much for parting with this. But this was back in the day when for whatever reason the image of the Lieutenant Governor was struck on a medal and presumably, it says on the back Canadian National Exhibition. So, either you could buy these or they gave them out at the CNE and there's Earl Rowe on it. So, a D2 Mont, get with it. Let's go. Let's see some medallions with your face on them. Maybe you can give these out at the X next year. Anyway, I thought it was cool. So, that's why I bought it.
**Steve Paikin**: 我最喜欢淘跳蚤市场的好东西了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: I love good flea market finds.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是啊，就是这样。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yeah, there we go.
**Steve Paikin**: 在我们继续之前，我想提一下我上周穿的那件T恤。谈到历史图像，其实上面印的并不是我们之前认为的 PCC 有轨电车。这已经不是我第一次穿那件T恤了，不知怎么的我们以前都没发现这错误。但只要你在互联网上对火车和轨道车辆的描述有误，时间一长肯定会有人来纠正你。听众 Greg Heal 来信指出了这一点，说那实际上是一辆多伦多铁路公司（Toronto Railway Company）的有轨电车。所以我猜那实际上比 PCC 有轨电车更具独特的加拿大特色。 Greg 写道，也许那件T恤是想看看观众能否发现当前时事的结合点——地方市政选举和公投，因为我们目前在加拿大正在经历这些。因为在1920年1月1日——以前多伦多的市政选举都是在每年年初举行，他们每年都选——在1920年1月1日，多伦多市民通过公投授权市政府收购市内所有的私营有轨电车公司，并将它们合并为一个单一的公营委员会，即多伦多街车委员会（Toronto Street Railway Commission），或者不管它当时叫什么，后来它变成了多伦多公车局（TTC），也就是我们至今仍然熟悉、有时也热爱的 TTC。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh before we move on, uh I wanted to note the t-shirt I was wearing last week uh talking about historic imagery, uh it did not in fact feature a PCC streetcar which we ascribed it to. And this is like not the first time I've worn that t-shirt uh and so we didn't get caught on this before uh somehow. Um but, if you are wrong about trains and tracked vehicles long enough on the internet, somebody will correct you. Uh listener Greg Heal wrote in about this and said uh that um it was in fact a Toronto Railway Company streetcar. Uh so, I assume that's in fact even more uniquely uh Canadian than the PCC streetcars were. Greg writes, uh perhaps the t-shirt was an attempt to see if viewers could spot a current event combo uh local municipal elections and referendums as uh we are currently going through some in Canada right now because on January 1st, 1920, which uh used to be Toronto municipal elections were held at the beginning of the year uh every year. They had elections annually. Um uh in on January 1st of 1920, uh Toronto's authorized the city via a referendum question to acquire all of the private streetcar companies in the city and merge them into a single publicly owned commission and the Toronto Street Railway Commission or whatever it became the Toronto Transit Commission that we uh still know and sometimes love today.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 看看我们，关于我们出生前发生的事情，我们真是一座智慧的源泉啊。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] Look at us. What a font of wisdom about stuff that happened before we were born.
**Steve Paikin**: 确实。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 特别是在我身上，这真是意味深长。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Which in my case is really saying something.
**Steve Paikin**: 我……我之前在这个播客里提到过一本书，叫《卫理公会自行车公司的复仇》（The Revenge of the Methodist Bicycle Company），那是关于多伦多开通首批有轨电车线路时引发的政治、宗教和教派纷争的精彩历史。我现在不会深入讲它，只想说如果你能找到这本书，读起来绝对是引人入胜的早期多伦多现代史。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: I I I I have mentioned uh on the past in this podcast a book called um The Revenge of the Methodist Bicycle Company, which is a fantastic history of the um political and like religious and sectarian fights over opening the first streetcar lines in Toronto and I will not go over it in in depth right now except to say that if you can find a copy of this book it really is a fascinating read of early modern Toronto history.
**John Michael McGrath**: 可以公平地说，那本书吸引的受众群体相当狭窄，仅限于自行车和公共交通书呆子圈子。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Fair to say that that a book would appeal to a fairly narrow sect of cycling and transit nerd-dom.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，我想如果你已经在听这个播客了，不管它有没有百万下载量，我很遗憾地通知你，你的兴趣爱好本来就已经挺小众了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh yes, I I I think I mean if you're already listening to this podcast million downloads or not your your your interests are already I regret to inform you kind of niche.
### 议题一：联邦与安省近90亿加元钢铁与汽车救援计划 **John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 就这样，让我们继续深挖我们的小众领域。第一个议题来了。 总理 Mark Carney 和安大略省省长 Doug Ford 本周在渥太华宣布了一项针对安大略省钢铁和汽车行业的近90亿加元救援计划，正如大家所知，这两个行业受到了美国关税的沉重打击。JMM，请详细讲讲细节。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] And with that let's continue to dive deep into our niche. Here comes issue one. Prime Minister Mark Carney and Ontario Premier Doug Ford were in Ottawa this week to announce a nearly $9 billion rescue package for Ontario steel and automotive sectors which as you know have been hit super hard by American tariffs. JMM details if you would.
**Steve Paikin**: 好的，我们先从钢铁说起。宣布成立的联合钢铁行动基金将包括5年内投入约50亿加元，也就是每年10亿加元。这一声明包括成立一个加拿大-安大略省钢铁工作组。我们都喜欢工作组。该工作组将协助寻找提升加拿大钢铁行业竞争力的方法。 你知道，这很有道理，对吧？我们不只是希望把钱拱手送上，对钢铁行业说“请便”。核心想法是希望能让该行业重新定位，使其在全球范围内更具竞争力。考虑到目前全球大宗商品市场的状况，这是一项艰巨的任务。我们可以谈谈中国，但那是另一回事了。 在联邦层面，加拿大在公共采购中将优先购买安大略省制造的钢铁，用于基础设施、国防和能源项目等领域。当然，联邦政府正在讨论以非常实质性的方式增加军事开支、签订新的造船合同等。因此你可以预见，钢铁将在这些项目中扮演重要角色。 该计划中还包含一个汽车行业的组成部分，即两年内投入25亿加元。同样也是每年10亿多一点，用于大规模汽车资本项目。这将为汽车行业提供资金，用于重建和调整其工厂及生产线，特别是改造用于生产电动汽车。汽车行业目前对于向电动汽车转型的热情程度有点混乱。他们在拜登政府和特朗普政府之间的政策变化中被来回折腾。 但加拿大的汽车行业规模较小，所以也许我们可以推动他们生产更多的电动汽车，当然，也希望能在本土销售。 而最重要的一个，或者说我认为省长可能最感到兴奋的一个，是三年内投入10亿加元帮助建设通往“火之环”（Ring of Fire）的道路基础设施。这是福特政府长期以来的请求。安省政府多年来一直承诺出资10亿加元建设通往火之环的道路。这些道路的建设如果说还没开工，也已经非常接近动工了。省政府一直请求联邦匹配这10亿资金，这样我们就能建设更庞大的道路网络，或者更快地建成当前规划的网络。 省政府终于如愿以偿，获得了10亿加元的联邦配资。正如我所说，尽管省长喜欢扶持钢铁的资金，也喜欢扶持汽车的资金，但甚至在疫情之前，他们就一直在争取这笔联邦配对资金。所以他们终于拿到了。我想省长今天对此肯定非常高兴。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Right, so let's start with steel. Uh the joint steel action fund uh that has been announced will include uh around $5 billion over 5 years but a billion dollars a year. Uh the announcement includes the creation of a Canada-Ontario steel task force. We love a good task force uh which will help identify ways for Canada's steel industry to uh improve its competitiveness. You know and and this makes sense right? It we're not just uh hoping to hand over money and and say you know help yourself to the steel industry. You know the the idea is to hopefully reposition uh the industry so that it is uh more globally competitive and that is a tall order right now given uh the the state of the global commodities markets. We could talk about China but that's a whole other thing. Canada at the federal level will be prioritizing buying uh Ontario made steel for public procurement for things like uh infrastructure, defense, energy projects. The uh federal government of course is uh talking about increasing military spending uh in in very substantial ways, new shipbuilding contracts, uh that kind of thing. So uh you would imagine that steel will play a big part of uh those projects. There is also uh an auto element to this plan, a two and a half billion dollars over two years. So again, a bit more than a billion dollars a year for large scale automotive capital projects. That is going to give the auto sector money to rebuild and retool their plants, their production lines, uh particularly with an interest in retooling them to make electric vehicles. The auto industry in a bit of confusion right now about how how enthusiastic they are about the electric vehicle transition. They kind of got whipsawed by the change in policy between the Biden and Trump administration. But it's also a smaller auto sector here in Canada. So maybe we can nudge them into making more electric vehicles and of course hopefully selling them here. The big one or at least I think the one that the premier might be most excited about is the billion dollars over three years to build help build road infrastructure into the Ring of Fire. This has been a long-standing request by the Ford government. The Ontario government has had a billion dollars committed to building roads into the Ring of Fire for many years now. The the construction of those roads has, you know, is now if it's not underway, it's very close to beginning. It's been a long-standing request by the province that the feds match that billion dollars and you know, we could build a a more extensive road network or build the currently planned one more quickly. And they the province finally got its wish. A billion dollars to match that provincial funding. Uh As I say, as much as the premier loves money for steel, loves money for cars, this has been, you know, even before COVID, they've been asking for this federal matching funds. So they have finally got it. I imagine the premier is quite happy about that today.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这里的理论是，一旦把这些道路修好，并开始真正开采那里的铬铁矿，将释放出数百亿加元的经济活动。所以如果他们能修好这些路，想必离这个目标更近了一步。 现在，加拿大政府已经提供了——如果你想谈谈关税战的后果——我们现在正花费250亿加元来援助受关税影响的行业，而且随着这些关税的影响进一步扩大，还将投入数十亿。安省省长上周我想说过，我们必须准备好面对关税被视为永久性的那一天。关税将长期存在，不会消失。 所以，你在前面的陈述中也提到了这一点。汽车行业目前的长期博弈究竟是什么？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Well, the theory is that this when they get these roads built and they start actually digging for chromite up there, it's going to unlock tens upon tens of billions of dollars worth of economic activity. So that presumably is a step closer if they can get these roads built. Now, the government of Canada has provided you want to talk about what happens in a tariff war, we're spending $25 billion right now to help industries affected by tariffs, and billions more as the impact of these tariffs spreads even further. The Premier of Ontario, I think said last week that we have to prepare for a day when these tariffs are considered permanent. They're here to stay. They're not going away. So, you alluded to this in your previous statement here. The long game for the auto industry at the moment is what?
**Steve Paikin**: 总理被问到这种援助在长期来看有多大可持续性。卡尼总理表示，总体而言加拿大的财政状况非常稳健，是工业化国家中最稳健的国家之一。当然，联邦预算我想将在两周后公布，显然他是在对此进行预告，称预算将展示联邦的财政状况有多么强劲。 你知道，我们来谈谈汽车行业，因为我认为那确实是最大的问号，对吧？至少在理论上，你可以为钢铁行业找到其他客户。而火之环的10亿加元对联邦政府而言总体上并不是一笔巨大的开支。但汽车行业是个巨大的问号，因为我们与美国市场的整合程度如此之高，以至于如果关税成为未来的常态，这就引出了一个非常根本的问题：永久性的联邦援助到底有多大可持续性？ 我们谈论的两年25亿加元，对你我来说显然是一大笔钱。但在联邦开支的规模上，它并不算那么多。在理论上，如果没有必要，这种开支水平完全可以一直持续下去。 最大的问号在于，我们是否真的能得到我们想要的结果，对吧？这25亿加元是否能永远支撑汽车行业？还是说我们最终只是在补贴一个日落西山的产业——比如我们花了25亿，但依然在失去汽车业的就业岗位？或者我们最终不得不花费越来越巨额的资金来维持我们试图保护的就业岗位？这是个大问题。我认为我们目前对此并没有太多的清晰答案。 我很赞成支持向电动汽车转型的举措，因为从大体上看，那确实是汽车行业的未来，但我们也应该现实一点。我们之前在播客中也讨论过，总的来说，一个以生产电动汽车为主的行业，由于车辆结构更简单、零部件更少，所雇佣的人数必然会更少。所以这也是令人担忧的问题。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh so, the Prime Minister was asked about how sustainable this kind of uh aid is for the longer term. Uh and Prime Minister Carney said that Canada's fiscal position is uh very strong overall, among the strongest in uh the industrialized world. Uh of course, the federal budget is coming out in I believe 2 weeks' time, and uh he, you know, is clearly previewing that, saying that it will show just how uh strong the the federal fiscal position is. And, you know, um let's talk about the auto sector, cuz I think that's really the the biggest question mark, right? You know, you could at least in theory find other customers for the steel sector. Um the the billion dollars for the Ring of Fire is not a um it's not a huge expenditure overall for uh the federal government, but the auto sector is this big question mark, cuz we are so tightly integrated with the American market that if uh the if the tariffs are a permanent feature uh of of life to come, uh that's a very basic question of like, how sustainable is permanent federal assistance? And, you know, uh 2 and 1/2 billion dollars over 2 years that we're talking about, that is obviously a lot of money to you and me. On the scale of federal spending, it's not that much money. In theory, there's no reason why that level of spending could not be uh perpetual if if it needed to be. Uh the big question mark is, do we actually get what we want, right? Is 2 and 1/2 billion dollars going to support the auto sector uh forever, or would we end up either subsidizing a declining industry anyway, like we spent two and a half billion dollars and we still lose auto jobs, or do we end up having to spend ever-increasing sums of money to sustain the auto jobs that we are trying to protect? That's the big question. I don't think we have a ton of clarity on that right now. Um I I I like the move to support electric vehicles transition cuz I think broadly speaking that is you know, the future of the auto sector, but we should be realistic there, too. And we've discussed this on the podcast before that, you know, in general, it will be true that a sector that is primarily about building electric vehicles, they're just they're simpler vehicles with fewer parts. They are going to employ fewer people. So, that's something to be concerned about as well.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这是一种延续。很有趣，总理引用了伟大的经济学家和学者 Wayne Gretzky 的名言：“当然，你必须滑向冰球将要到达的地方，而不是它曾经去过的地方。”就总理而言，展望未来，冰球要去的地方仍然是电动汽车。话虽如此，制造它们所需的人手可能会减少。如果你把这个统计数据叠加在另一个重要数据之上——我们国家现在年产100万辆汽车，但在不久之前，我们每年生产超过200万辆汽车。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: It's a continuation. It's funny, the Prime Minister quoted Wayne Gretzky, the great economist and scholar, who said, "Of course, you got to skate to where the puck is going, not where the puck has been." And as far as the Prime Minister's concerned, where the puck is going is still electric vehicles as we look into the future. Having said that, there may be fewer people required to make them, which if you pile that statistic on top of another important statistic, which is we make a million cars in this country right now, but it wasn't that long ago we made more than 2 million cars a year in this country.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 所以你可以看到这个行业的前进方向，随着我们继续前行，可能不得不针对这个行业提出一些严峻的问题。你现在还有其他想问的吗？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So, you can see the direction the industry is going in, and some hard questions may have to be asked about this industry as we continue down the road. Any others that you want to ask right now?
**Steve Paikin**: 还有一件事值得一提，作为整体声明的一部分，而且明确包含在汽车支持方案中：联邦政府正在放宽其部分排放标准目标。他们将在接下来的我认为三年内保持排放标准不变，此前原本计划变得更加严格，但联邦政府现在将暂停提升严格度，之后在2030年恢复提升——请原谅我的口误——提升严格程度。 联邦政府称这是为了应对美方的举措。在当前党派掌控下的美国国会推翻了对排放标准的一大堆修改。从务实角度来看，这在一定程度上讲得通：加拿大汽车行业由于与美国深度融合，不可能生产出比美国车清洁得多的车辆，这根本不现实。大家都在造同样的汽车，对吧？ 话虽如此，我认为值得把它原原本本地说明白：汽车行业向本届政府提出申请并获得了许可，允许在加拿大本土制造和销售污染更高的汽车，而这正是本周宣布的扶持方案的一部分。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: One more thing that bears mentioning just as part of this overall announcement, the the And And this was explicitly included as part of the um auto support package, uh is that the the federal government is backing away from some of its uh targets on emission standards. They're going to uh hold emission standards constant uh for the next, I believe, 3 years, and then they will uh they had been scheduled to become more stringent, and instead the the federal government is going to sort of pause that stringency before resuming an an increase in stringency stringency, pardon me, uh in 2030. This is being ascribed by the federal government to basically respond to moves by the Americans, the US Congress under the current partisan government has reversed a whole bunch of changes to emission standards and it makes a certain amount of sense pragmatically that, you know, the Canadian auto sector is not going to, again, because we are so tightly integrated, we are not going to make wildly cleaner vehicles than the ones the Americans are making. It's just not We're all trying to build the same cars, right? That said, I think it's worth, you know, describing this plainly and like the industry asked for and received from the current government the permission to both make and sell more polluting vehicles here in Canada and that was a part of the support package that was announced this week.
**John Michael McGrath**: 自由党政府里的环保人士（如果还剩下任何人的话）可能对此不会感到高兴，但这是当下大家都在面对的政治现实。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: The environmentalists, if there are any left in the liberal government, probably are not going to be happy about this, but it is a political reality that everybody's dealing with these days.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，而且我想，作为特鲁多内阁非常坚定的成员，Catherine McKenna 和 Steven Guilbeault 如果现在还在联邦政坛的话，他们对自己会处于什么境地肯定看得很清楚。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes, and you know, I I suspect that Catherine McKenna and Steven Guilbeault, who were very staunch members of the the the Trudeau cabinet, are are pretty clear-eyed about where they would be if they were still in federal politics.
**John Michael McGrath**: 现在恐怕已经被踢出党团了吧。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Probably sitting outside the caucus by now.
**Steve Paikin**: 至少肯定不在内阁中了，那是肯定的。好了，让我们进入第二个议题。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Certainly outside of cabinet by now, that's for sure. All right, let's move on to issue two.
### 议题二：安省市政选举冲刺与各地市长选情 **John Michael McGrath**: 在过去几周里，我们一直在推出一个叫“市政选举观察”（Municipal Election Watch）的环节。多朗朗上口的名字，是吧？全是关于下周一安省各地地方选举的倒计时，这是我们在投票前的最后一次梳理，我们有一些激烈的选战要报道。 JMM，来帮大家理一理。首先是在省会多伦多，现任市长邹至庄（Olivia Chow）对其主要挑战者 Brad Bradford 曾经巨大的领先优势已经基本荡然无存。现在的选情已经胶着到胜负难料。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: For the last several weeks, we have been presenting something called Municipal Election Watch. What a catchy title, eh? It's all about the countdown to the next Monday's local elections all over Ontario, and this is our final check-in before the vote, and we've got some great races to report on. JMM, make sense of this. For starters, we're in the capital city, where a once big lead by the current mayor, Olivia Chow, over her prime challenger, Brad Bradford, has essentially disappeared. The race is too close to call now.
**Steve Paikin**: 确实如此。Liaison Strategies 本周发布的一项民调显示，Brad Bradford 实际上首次登上了第一位。 另外，Polara Strategic Insights 的民调则显示邹至庄大幅领先，领先 Bradford 七个百分点。因此确实存在一些不确定性，但我认为可以肯定地说，自从 Chris Alexander 退选之后，正如大家所预料的那样，选情大幅收紧。 如果我是 Bradford 竞选团队，我绝对不会在办公室开香槟庆祝。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: That's right. Liaison Strategies released a poll this week that put Brad Bradford in first place for the first time, really. Separately, a Polara Strategic Insights poll put Chow well ahead, seven points ahead of Bradford. So, definitely some ambiguity, but I think it is fair to say that we've definitely seen the race tighten uh substantially since Chris Alexander left the race, which is you know, what you would predict. I definitely would not be popping champagne bottles in the Bradford campaign offices.
**John Michael McGrath**: 为时过早？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Too early?
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，为时过早。但是竞争绝对收紧了，胜负难料。 但如果民调是正确的，或者取民调的平均值，Bradford 确实让这场选战变得极具竞争力。而在市政选举中，尤其是在多伦多，做到这一点非常困难。有多难？如果他在周一获胜——我们在此并不是在断言选举结果或做出预测——但如果 Bradford 真的在周一获胜，他将成为自六市合并以来第一位彻底击败现任市长的挑战者。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh yeah, too early, but you know, yes, it has absolutely gotten tighter, too close to call. And but but if the polls are correct, or at least you know, if you want to average the polls or whatever, um you know, Bradford has made this race competitive, and that is really difficult to do in municipal elections broadly speaking, and and particularly in Toronto. How hard is that? If he wins on Monday, and we are still not we're not calling the race or anything here, but you know, if Bradford does in fact win on Monday, he will be the first candidate to ever defeat an incumbent mayor in Toronto outright since amalgamation. Uh
**John Michael McGrath**: 六市合并是在1997年。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Amalgamation is 1997.
**Steve Paikin**: 1997年，对。所以我们谈论的是将近30年的选举历史。梳理一下这份名单：Mel Lastman 和 David Miller 都选择不寻求连任；Rob Ford 因身体原因退出了连任竞选；John Tory 在第三次竞选连任获胜后辞职，这也是邹至庄最初入主市长办公室的原因。因此，自合并以来，没有任何一位现任市长在竞选连任时被正面击败过。即使追溯到合并前，这种情况也非常罕见。我想从我出生以来也就发生过两次。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: 1997, yeah. So, we're talking almost 30 years of elections, and just to go through the list here, uh Mel Lastman and David Miller both opted not to run for re-election. Rob Ford withdrew from his re-election campaign for medical reasons, and John Tory resigned after winning his third election campaign, which is how Olivia Chow ended up in the mayor's office in the first place. So, no incumbent mayor has run for re-election and been defeated outright since amalgamation. And even if you go back before amalgamation, it's still very rare. I think there have been two since I was born.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我在努力回想你刚才说的。John Sewell 曾作为现任市长落选，但那是在1980年，而且那是在合并前较小的老多伦多市。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: I think what Okay, I'm trying to remember now that you've said. John Sewell was an incumbent mayor who did lose, but that was 1980, and that was of course in the smaller old city of Toronto before amalgamation.
**Steve Paikin**: 但我正在想另一个是谁——
Original English **Steve Paikin**: But I'm trying to think who
**John Michael McGrath**: June Rowlands 算一个。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: June Rowlands was
**Steve Paikin**: June Rowlands 算另一个。好的，是的，她也算。好的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: June Rowlands would be another one. Okay, yeah, she would be too. Okay.
**John Michael McGrath**: 既然我们在讨论以前没见过的稀奇事，我不确定我们是否见过过去这周发生的事情。 让我这样铺垫一下：前任市长在选战中背书支持候选人并不罕见。我清楚地记得在2010年，有 Art Eggleton、David Crombie、John Sewell 和 Barbara Hall，他们全都是多伦多前市长。我记得他们当时实际上就坐在这个演播室的那边，在《The Agenda》节目中接受我的采访，说：“我们认为 Rob Ford 不应该成为下一任市长。我们都支持 George Smitherman。” 那种情况是会发生的。但我记不得曾有两位安省前省长介入市长选举，而过去这周就发生了，带来了几项高调的背书。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Well, we also, as long as we're talking about stuff we haven't seen before, I'm not sure we've ever seen before what happened this past week. Let me set it up this way. It's not unusual for former mayors to endorse candidates in a race. I well remember in 2010, I think it was well, it was Art Eggleton, it was David Crombie, it was John Sewell, and it was Barbara Hall. All of whom were former Toronto mayors, all of whom I think in fact sat right over there in this studio and did an interview with me on the agenda saying, "We don't think Rob Ford should be the next mayor. We are all backing George Smitherman." So, that happens. But, I can't ever recall two former premiers of Ontario getting involved in a mayor's race, and that happened this past week with a couple of high-profile endorsements.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，Bob Rae 和 Kathleen Wynne 都背书支持了邹至庄。 Kathleen Wynne 的背书很引人注目。她说：“我们显然来自不同的党派背景，但在公共服务的目的上，我们有着相同的信念。”我其实没读 Bob Rae 的背书声明，但正如你所说，前省长在市政选举中表态是非常引人注目的。 我想说的是，这体现了一点——这对于多伦多这座城市来说并不见得完全是好事，但我认为它表明了多伦多的政治在全省乃至全国层面上变得多么举足轻重。 在其他条件相同的情况下，我们可以预见未来会有更多市政圈子以外的人介入进行这类背书，因为多伦多市长由谁担任，对多伦多以外的党派政治至关重要。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes, so we have both Bob Rae and Kathleen Wynne have both endorsed Olivia Chow. Kathleen Wynne's endorsement was was notable. She said, you know, "We obviously come from different partisan backgrounds, but we both believe in the same things in in terms of what public service is for." I did not in fact read Bob Rae's endorsement, but as you say, very notable for former premiers to weigh in on a municipal race. You know, I will say that it is a mark This is not something that I think is necessarily all to the good for Toronto as a city, but it I think it speaks to how prominent Toronto's politics have become within the provincial and the national sphere. And I think you know, all else being equal, we can expect to see more endorsements from outside of the municipal sphere coming in from outside to to make these kinds of endorsements because it matters to partisan politics outside of Toronto who ends up holding the mayor's office.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我们还必须记住，多伦多市长虽然不是全国甚至全省最有权力的政治家，但在整个国家中，没有哪个政治家获得的选票比多伦多市长更多。因为多伦多市长并不像总理或省长那样只代表单一选区。我不知道安省省长 Doug Ford 上次选举在北怡陶碧谷（Etobicoke North）拿了多少票，但大概也就7千、8千、9千、1万或1.1万票左右。而邹至庄三年前赢得选举时拿了将近30万票。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: We also have to remember that the mayor of Toronto was not the most powerful politician in the country or even in the province. But, there is no politician in this entire country who gets more votes than the mayor of Toronto because the mayor of Toronto is not representing a single constituency as the prime minister or the premier does. I don't know how many votes the premier of Ontario Doug Ford got in the Etobicoke North in the last election, but it was probably something like 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,000 votes. You know, Olivia Chow gets close to 300,000 votes when she wins her election 3 years ago.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 因此，无论谁成为多伦多市长，背后都有巨大的民主分量。现在，我们说有两位前省长在这场选战中支持了邹至庄。如果我们想特别抖机灵一下，可以说实际上有三位省长支持了邹至庄，对吧？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So, there is a lot of democratic heft behind whoever becomes mayor of Toronto. Now, we say two former premiers endorsed Olivia Chow in this race. If we wanted to be particularly smart-alecky here, we could say there were actually three premiers who endorsed Olivia Chow in this race, right?
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，那是选战中一个有些古怪的时刻。现任省长 Doug Ford 热情洋溢地赞扬了邹市长，并在发表了这番赞美之后告诉记者和其他观察员可以“领会言外之意”。我猜他肯定被幕僚和进步保守党支持者狠狠数落了一通 [笑声]。因为第二天省长办公室就发表声明说那不是正式背书，我们不应该这样解读。但是，话是他亲口说的，而且是对着麦克风和电视摄像机说的。对于事后的澄清声明，其效力是有限的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes, that was a bit of an odd moment in this race where, of course, the current premier Doug Ford spoke glowingly of Mayor Chow, told reporters and other observers that we could read between the lines after he gave this glowing statement. And I I imagine that he got quite an earful from staffers and progressive conservative supporters [laughter] because the next day the premier's office released a statement saying, you know, it was not an official endorsement and you know, we shouldn't read it as such. But, like, he said what he said and he said it on mic to a TV camera. I'm not sure. There's a limit to what you can do with retroactive statements.
**John Michael McGrath**: 他当时说那番话的时候意思看起来非常明确 [笑声]，那是肯定的。 好吧，让我们转向另一场市长选战。就在我们西边的密西沙加市。我们应该指出，现任安省省长实际上也介入了那场选战，大力支持密西沙加现任市长 Carolyn Parrish，而不是密西沙加前市长兼安省自由党前党领 Bonnie Crombie。而且我很确定 Doug Ford 没有收回那项背书。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Seemed pretty clear at [laughter] the moment when he said it, that's for sure. Okay, let's pivot to another mayor's race. This one just west of here in Mississauga, and we should point out that the current premier of Ontario has actually weighed into that race as well, very much endorsing Carolyn Parrish, the current mayor of Mississauga, over Bonnie Crombie, the former mayor of Mississauga and former Ontario Liberal leader, of course. And I'm pretty sure Doug Ford has not walked back that endorsement.
**Steve Paikin**: 没有，据我所知没有收回。尽管我实际上并没看到他承诺派去密西沙加击败 Bonnie Crombie 的那支“大军”。可能是我不知道吧，我没在那边搞什么深入侦察。 但这是一场非常有趣的选举。在至今为止的大部分选战时间里，可以公平地描述为：Crombie 和 Parrish 一直处于前两位，而市议员 Alvin Tedjo 和 Dipika Damerla 则落在后面。在选战早期的某些民调中，排名是 Damerla，然后是 Tedjo，接着最近几个月 Tedjo 开始上升。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: No, no, as far as I know, although I actually haven't seen the army he promised to go into Mississauga to defeat Bonnie Crombie. Possible that I don't know. I'm not doing like advanced reconnaissance there. Um, but, you know, this has been a very interesting race. For most of the race so far, broadly speaking, I would say it's fair that to to describe it as, you know, we've seen Crombie and Parrish in the top two positions and then Alvin Tedjo and Dipika Damerla, who both have seats on council, they've been further back. In some polls from earlier in the race. It was Demerla and then Tejo and then Tejo started moving up in recent months.
**John Michael McGrath**: 但仍然远远落后于前两名。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: But still far back of the top two.
**Steve Paikin**: 没错。本周情况似乎发生了改变。首先是 Mainstreet Research 的民调，显示 Crombie 排名第一，但 Tedjo 跃居第二，然后是 Parrish，而 Damerla 远远落后，支持率只有个位数。 接着我们又看到了 Liaison Strategies 针对密西沙加的另一项民调。在已决定和倾向选民中，Crombie 为35%，Alvin Tedjo 为31%，Parrish 为28%。支持率咬得相当紧。我想 Liaison 的负责人 David Valentin 将 Crombie 描述为刚刚超出误差范围。所以虽然处于第一，但依然是一场胶着的选举。 这些是不同的民调机构，我们在对比不同民调和不同机构时要谨慎，但它们显示了大致相似的结果。 这最终可能会演变成一场比几周前大家预想的要胶着得多的选举，并产生不同的结果。再提一位民调专家，Abacus Data 的 David Coletto，他并没有进行我们提到的任何民调，但他是一位感兴趣的观察员。他在社交媒体平台 X 上发帖称，他认为 Alvin 在周一会给很多人带来惊喜。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Exactly. Um this week, that seems to have changed. First, we had a poll from Main Street Research. They found Crombie in first, but Tejo in second, then Parrish, then Demerla very far behind in single digits. And then we had another poll from Liaison Strategies again. This of Mississauga. They found Crombie at 35% among decided and leaning voters. Alvin Tejo at 31%. Parrish at 28%. So, relatively tight clustering there. Crombie, I believe um David Valentine, the head of Liaison, described Crombie as just outside of the margin of error. So, so in first place, but still a very tight election there. These are different pollsters, so you know, we want to be careful about comparing different polls and different pollsters, but showing broadly similar results. This could end up being a much closer election with a different result than frankly would have been obvious even a few weeks ago. Just to throw another pollster into the mix, David Colletto of Abacus Data, who did not conduct any of these polls that we've mentioned, but is an interested observer. He posted on the social media platform X that he thinks Alvin is going to surprise a lot of people on Monday.
**John Michael McGrath**: Alvin Tedjo 参选过不少职位，对吧？他在2022年竞选过安省自由党党领。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Alvin Tejo has run for a bunch of things, right? He ran for Ontario Liberal leader once.
**Steve Paikin**: 在2022年。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: in 2022.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是的，在此之前他也竞选过市长，当过市议员。他是选战中较年轻的人之一，他认为自己的时代已经到来。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yeah, he's run for mayor before this as well. He's been on council. He's the, you know, one of the younger fellows in the race, and he thinks his time has come.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，而且在密西沙加上一次选出 Bonnie Crombie 继任者的补选中，他取得了令人意外的微弱差距。就像多伦多在2023年经历的那样，他当时可以竞选市长席位而无需冒失去市议员席位的风险。而这次他是孤注一掷（playing for all the marbles）。如果他输掉这次市长选举，他就没有市议员的席位可以回去了。所以这将会非常有趣。显然，我们在周一晚上会关注很多不同的选战，密西沙加无疑是其中之一。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yeah, no, and and he he came surprisingly close in the last mayoral contest in Mississauga, which was to choose Bonnie Crombie's successor. And you know, much like Toronto went through in 2023, he he was able to run for that mayor seat without putting his own council seat at risk. This time he's playing for all the marbles. You know, if he loses this mayoral race, he will not have a a council seat to go back to. And so it it it will be very interesting. Obviously, we we'll be paying attention to a lot of different races on Monday night and Mississauga is undoubtedly one of them.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我能为这场选举再添一个波折吗？大家都知道 Hazel McCallion 这个名字。如果你对密西沙加有一点了解，就会知道这位长期执政的市长，她担任密西沙加市长近40年。她的儿子 Peter McCallion 刚刚在 Instagram 上发布了一段视频。他把矛头对准了 Bonnie Crombie。他不喜欢她的政绩，也不喜欢在前几届选举中，他的母亲曾背书 Bonnie Crombie 接替她自己成为密西沙加市长这件事。Bonnie Crombie 在这次竞选中正提醒大家这一点——当年 Peter 的母亲 Hazel McCallion 确实曾支持过 Bonnie Crombie 当市长。 Peter 不喜欢这样。这是他在视频中向大家表达不满的一小段片段，Peter McCallion： “我母亲在去世前就已经对自己2014年背书 Bonnie Crombie 感到后悔了。她没能活到亲眼看见 Bonnie 抛弃这份工作、背弃我们深爱的城市。你不能通过把她的照片印在竞选标牌或宣传品上来纪念她的遗产。只有践行她所坚持的价值观才是纪念。而你的所作所为表明这些价值观对你来说毫无意义。密西沙加值得拥有一位专注于未来而不是盘算自己下一步往哪爬的市长。这就是为什么我支持 Carolyn Parrish。” 但这还没完！因为 Peter McCallion 有个女儿叫 Erica McCallion，显然是 Hazel McCallion 的孙女。Erica McCallion 在安大略省自由党工作，她支持 Bonnie Crombie。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Well, can I add an extra wrinkle to this race? Because well, everybody knows the name Hazel McCallion. If you know anything about Mississauga, the long long-serving mayor, she served almost 40 years as mayor of Mississauga. Her son, Peter McCallion, has just come out with a video that he's dropped on Instagram. He has taken aim at Bonnie Crombie. He does not like her record. He does not like the fact that a couple of elections ago ago, his mother actually endorsed Bonnie Crombie to replace herself, Mayor McCallion, as the mayor of Mississauga. And Bonnie Crombie is reminding people of that in her campaigning this time around. That once upon a time, Peter's mother, Hazel McCallion, did endorse Bonnie Crombie for mayor. Peter doesn't like that. And here's his here's a a little snippet of his video telling people that he doesn't like it. Peter McCallion. "My mother had already come to regret her 2014 endorsement of Bonnie Crombie before she passed away. She didn't live to see Bonnie walk away from the job and turn her back on our beloved city. You don't honor her legacy by putting her picture on a campaign sign or literature. You honor it by living the values she stood for. And your actions have shown how little those values mean to you. Mississauga deserves a mayor who's focused on the future and not their next move. That's why I am supporting Carolyn Parrish." But there's more. Because Peter McCallion has a daughter named Erica McCallion, who is the granddaughter, obviously, of Hazel McCallion. Erica McCallion works for the Ontario Liberal Party. She's backing Bonnie Crombie.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 所以关于密西沙加的市长之位，我们看到了一场相当激烈的家庭内讧。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So, we have quite a little internecine family feud going on here as it relates to the mayoralty in Mississauga.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。我只想说，公开的家庭恩怨总是有些微妙。我希望他们在一起能过个愉快的圣诞节 [笑声]。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh, yes. And, uh, I will just say, uh, yes, family family feuds in public are always uh, a bit dicey. Uh, I I hope they all have a lovely Christmas together.
**John Michael McGrath**: 好吧，我们不会去妄加猜测这场选举的结果会如何，但可以肯定下周一晚上我们会密切关注。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] Well, uh, we're not going to hazard a guess as to how this one is going to turn out, but you can bet we're going to keep our eye on it next Monday night.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，绝对会。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes, absolutely.
**John Michael McGrath**: 现在，让我们转向国家首都。市长 Mark Sutcliffe 正在竞选第二个任期，并且似乎铁定连任。本月早些时候的一项 Nanos 民调显示 Sutcliffe 拥有绝对领先优势，以53%对31%领先其主要挑战者 Jeff Leiper。话虽如此，其他更近期的民调显示差距有所缩小，其中一项显示 Sutcliffe 和 Leiper 之间的差距缩小到了个位数。 我想关于这个我们也收到了一封邮件。怎么回事？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yeah. Now, let's move on to the nation's capital where Mayor Mark Sutcliffe is running for a second term and seems like a shoe-in to be reelected. A Nanos poll from earlier this month found Sutcliffe with a commanding lead, 53% to 31% for his main challenger, Jeff Leiper. That said, other more recent polls have shown a bit of a tighter race, one showing a single-digit gap between Sutcliffe and Leiper. Uh, I think we've got an email on this one, too. I, what's what's going on?
**Steve Paikin**: 这是来自渥太华的 Mark Saltink 发来的邮件，他写道： “亲爱的听众：是的，我只能去想象你们那些T恤有多华丽，非常喜欢这个节目。历史知识和对细节的极客式关注非常值得称赞。我们在渥太华遇到了一个有趣的情况。我们的一位市长候选人目前在狱中，并将在选举结束后一直关在那里，直到下一次保释听证会。Jeff Nicholas 于9月被捕并被起诉，原因是涉嫌对市长 Mark Sutcliffe 和省长 Doug Ford 发出死亡威胁。据市政府称，他的名字将保留在选票上。这引发了关于《市政选举法》（Municipal Elections Act）的一些疑问：在什么情况下名字会被从名单中移除？” 这就是来自渥太华的 Mark Saltink 的来信。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Email from Mark Saltink in Ottawa, who writes, "A dear listener. Yes, I have to just imagine the splendor of your t-shirts and greatly enjoy the program. The history lessons and nerdish attention to detail are much appreciated. We have an interesting situation in Ottawa. One of our candidates for mayor is currently in jail and will remain there until after the election until his next bail hearing. Jeff Nicholas was arrested and charged in September for alleged death threats against Mayor Mark Sutcliffe and Premier Doug Ford. According to the city, his name will remain on the ballot. This brings up some questions about the Municipal Elections Act. Under what circumstances is a name removed from the list?" That's Mark Saltink in Ottawa.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这是一个非常有趣的问题。事实是，在某些情况下，名字根本不会被移出选票，对吧？我的意思是，Chris Alexander 很久之前就退选了，但他的名字在多伦多市的选票上仍然赫然在列。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Well, this is a really interesting question and the fact is there are some circumstances where the name doesn't come off the list at all, right? I mean, Chris Alexander's name is still on the ballot in the city of Toronto even though he dropped out ages ago.
**Steve Paikin**: 我还能举出更极端的例子。在2022年多伦多上一届市议会选举中，一位市议员候选人在投票日前不幸去世，但为时已晚，选票已经印好了。我想那是在北士嘉堡选区（Scarborough North）。选务书记官的职责是告知选民该候选人已去世，投给其的票将不予计算。但确实，把某个人的名字从选票上撤下来绝非一件小事。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yeah, I can do one better. I mean, in the previous council election back in 2022 in Toronto, we had a a counselor die prior to uh day and it was it was too late. The ballots were already printed and so um that was in the ward of Scarborough North, I believe. Um and yeah, the the uh the obligation of the clerk is to tell voters that that person is deceased and and that their votes will not be counted. Uh but uh yeah, it is not a a trivial matter to remove somebody's name from ballots.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我想在2010年 Rob Ford 竞选多伦多市长时也发生过同样的情况，有几位候选人退选太晚，名字无法从选票上除名，但他们最终没能走到终点。所以，怎样才能把名字从选票上拿掉？有时即使你在坐牢也拿不掉。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: I think we had the same situation happened back in 2010 when Rob Ford was running for mayor of Toronto and there were a couple of candidates who dropped out at too late to have their name taken off the ballot, but uh they still didn't make it to the finish line. So, yeah, how do you get your name off a ballot? Uh sometimes you can't even if you're in jail.
**Steve Paikin**: 没错。在此我要发表一下个人观点：在这一具体案件中，对这位已登记候选人的指控尚未在法庭上被排除合理怀疑地证实。作为 OnPoli 播客的一项基本原则，我们的立场是：不要发出死亡威胁，尤其是不要向公职人员发出死亡威胁。哪怕仅仅是因为发出死亡威胁本身就是犯罪。正如我所说，他只是被起诉，指控尚未被证实。刑事指控本身不足以将某人的名字从选票上移除，因为在被定罪之前，你是清白的。这是基本的宪法原则。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh correct. And so I'm going to editorialize for a moment here and uh say that in this specific case, the charges against this registered candidate have not been proven in court beyond a reasonable doubt. As a general principle here on the On Poli Podcast, our position is don't make death threats. Don't make death threats in particular against public officials. Um if for no other reason than because it is in fact a crime to make death threats. He has only been charged as I say, he the charges have not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. A criminal charge on its own is not sufficient to remove somebody's name from a ballot because until you are convicted, you are innocent. This is basic constitutional principle.
**John Michael McGrath**: 对。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: right.
**Steve Paikin**: 对吧？抛开这个特定案例，假设某人被判犯有严重罪行，并被判处在省级惩教中心或联邦监狱服刑，那么他们将丧失在市政选举中的投票资格。《市政选举法》规定，你必须具备在市政选举中的投票资格，才有资格作为候选人参选。我查阅了多部相互关联的法律才搞清楚这点。 因此在假设的情形下，如果你是一名已登记的候选人，随后在选举日之前被指控并被判犯有严重罪行并被判处监禁。在这种情况下，负责组织选举的市政书记官将被指示将你的名字从选票中移除。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Right? Um now, outside of this specific case, hypothetically speaking, if someone were convicted of a uh serious crime and they were sentenced to uh serve time either in a provincial correctional center or a federal prison, uh they are ineligible to vote in a municipal election. The Municipal Elections Act says you have to be eligible to vote in a municipal election in order to be eligible to run as a candidate. Uh I had to consult multiple different interlocking pieces of law to to puzzle this out. So, in a hypothetical scenario, if you were a registered candidate and then you got uh charged and convicted of a serious crime and sentenced to to jail time uh before election day. In that scenario, uh the clerk of the municipality who administers the election uh is then uh instructed to remove your name from the ballot.
**John Michael McGrath**: 也就是说你不能投票。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So, you can't vote.
**Steve Paikin**: 所以你不能投票，也不能任职，不具备担任公职的资格。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: So, uh you can't vote and you cannot serve and you're not eligible to for public office.
**John Michael McGrath**: 嗯。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Mhm.
**Steve Paikin**: 即使在这种情况下，如果选票已经印好了，法律也做出了豁免，但此时投给你的任何选票将根本不被计算。在这种情况下，名字依然会留在选票上。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh even in that case, the law does make an exemption if the ballots are already printed, but in those cases, any votes that were cast for you would simply not be counted. Um the the the name would would still stay on the ballot in that case.
**John Michael McGrath**: 还有其他需要提醒大家注意的细节吗？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Any other wrinkles you want to bring to our attention?
**Steve Paikin**: 还有一件事。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: There is one other thing.
**John Michael McGrath**: 我就知道会有，因为我发现了这个，怎么说呢，这逗乐我了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: I knew there would be because I I discovered this and and what can I say? It It tickled me.
**Steve Paikin**: 根据《市政选举法》第91条，因与市政选举相关的作为或不作为而被判定触犯《刑法典》罪行，不仅可能成为取消当期选票资格的理由——这部分法律主要涉及受贿或企图行贿等情况——如果你被认定在市政选举中有《刑法典》犯罪行为，你不仅当期选举被取消资格，实际上还可能被剥夺在接下来的最多整整两届选举中担任公职的资格。所以你不仅是一个周期内不能担任公职，而是长达8年，因为安省的选举周期是四年一届。 再次强调，我不是律师，我只是照着安省颁布的法律字面阅读。我并不认为法律的这一条款必然适用于 Mark 来信提到的那种情况，但市政选举中搞鬼的惩罚可能相当严厉。你可能会丧失基本的参选权和担任公职的权利。而且正如我们在福特政府统治下的其他背景中所了解到的，参与市政政府并没有宪法权利保障。你在市政层面投票和获得民主代表的权利，并不受《权利与自由宪章》保护，这一点不同于你在省选或联邦选举中的投票权。因此惩罚可能相当严厉，而且你不会获得像在省或联邦层面那样的保护。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Under section 91 of the Municipal Elections Act, conviction of a criminal code offense in connection with an act or omission that relates to a municipal election can potentially be grounds for not just being disqualified on the ballot in question. And this charge is is mostly it's it's in the the part of the law that mostly has to do with like if you were found to have been bribed or or tried to commit bribery. If you are are found to have committed a criminal code offense in connection with the municipal election, uh you are not only disqualified for the election in question, but you can in fact be disqualified from holding office for uh up to two full elections later. So, you would not just be ineligible for public office for one cycle, but up to I guess 8 years because we have four-year election cycles uh in Ontario. Uh so, now again, I'm going to stress as I sometimes do that I am not a lawyer. I'm just reading the law as it is printed in Ontario. I do not know necessarily that this section of the law would uh apply in a case like the one that Mark has written us about, but the penalties for doing shenanigans in municipal elections can be quite severe, right? You can lose that basic election uh right, that right to stand for public office. And as we have had uh cause to learn in other contexts under the Ford government, there is no constitutional right to participate in municipal government. Your your right to vote, your right to democratic representation at the municipal level is not protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms the same way your right to vote in provincial or federal elections is. So yeah, the penalties can be quite severe and you are not protected in the same way that you would be at the provincial or federal level.
**John Michael McGrath**: 让我理一理：你不是宪法律师，也不是市政法律专家，但你昨晚确实住在智选假日酒店（Holiday Inn）了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So let me get this straight. You are not a constitutional lawyer, you are not a municipal affairs legal expert, but you did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
**Steve Paikin**: [笑声] 懂了。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: [laughter] Got it.
### 议题三：安省电费补贴削减与秋季经济报告展望 **John Michael McGrath**: 接下来是第三个议题。我们来聊聊电费，好吗？多年来在安省，历届政府一直用纳税人的钱来补贴电力成本。过去20年里，随着安省重建并推进电网绿化，这些成本大幅上升。在上一份安省预算案中，纳税人花费了高达70亿加元来补贴电费。而且我经常觉得奇怪的是，就连年收入六位数甚至更高的人，其电费账单也得到了补贴。 好吧，这种情况可能要结束了。怎么回事？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And with that we're off to issue three. Let's talk electricity, shall we? For many years in Ontario, various governments have used tax dollars to subsidize the cost of power. Those costs have increased significantly over the past 20 years as Ontario has rebuilt and greened its electricity grid. In the last Ontario budget, taxpayers spent a whopping $7 billion subsidizing the cost of electricity. And something that I've often found strange, even people with six-figure incomes or higher got their electricity bills subsidized. Well, that may be coming to an end. What's up?
**Steve Paikin**: 这一消息来自我们 The Trillium 的同事，他们报道了这则新闻。政府已经开始进行必要的监管公示，以削减安大略省的电力回扣（Ontario electricity rebate）。从11月1日起，他们将削减三分之一，这将使其回落到能源与矿业厅长 Stephen Lecce 去年宣布增加补贴之前的水平。 这是对电力回扣的一刀切式削减，所以并不是说政府意识到了累进制度的优越性，他们并没有专门削减高收入人群的补贴。这是全面削减三分之一。但大家心知肚明他们为什么这么做：赤字一直居高不下。你提到了安省补贴耗资70亿加元，而这几乎占了今年预算总赤字的一半。总赤字是140亿加元，能源补贴就占了70亿。因此削减三分之一绝不会完全消除赤字，但它能从赤字中削减数十亿加元。政府目前正努力实现预算平衡。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: So this comes from our colleagues at the Trillium who reported this story out. The government has started doing the necessary regulatory postings to reduce the Ontario electricity rebate. They will be cutting it by a third starting on November 1st, which will bring it back down to where it was before the Minister of Energy and Mines Stephen Lecce announced an increase to the subsidy last year. This is an across-the-board cut in the electricity rebate, so it is not um it's not like the the government has discovered the virtue of a progressive system. They are they are not cutting it particularly for high-income earners. This is going to be an across-the-board cut by a third, but you know, there's no mystery as to why they are doing this, right? The deficit has been stubbornly high. You mentioned the $7 billion cost of the Ontario rebate and that was like half of the total deficit in this year's budget. The the total deficit was 14 billion. The energy rebate was 7 billion. So, you know, cutting it by a third will not eliminate the deficit by any means, but it will cut multiple billions out of the the deficit and you know, the government is struggling to balance the the budget.
**John Michael McGrath**: 多年来我一直在不厌其烦地谈论这个问题——我找的那个词叫什么来着？翻来覆去地说（ad nauseam）。我每次在预算锁闭室（budget lockup）里，财政厅长 Peter Bethlenfalvy 听到我的提问时都会说：“你去年不是问过我这个吗？前年不是也问过吗？”是的，我一直在追问，因为这项政策在我看来始终毫无逻辑：我们去补贴年收入六位数人群的用电，对我来说简直是……我找的那个词叫什么来着？太荒唐了（bananas）。 而且，更进一步说，那种鼓励人们节约用电的观念——如果可以的话少用电，这是降低取暖账单最好的方式。但我一直想不通，如果你补贴他们的用电，怎么可能鼓励人们少用电？我一直希望那些需要帮助支付电费的人能得到救助，但我总是想：“为什么政府每个月要给我寄一张8块钱的支票来补贴我的电费账单？”我不需要，我也不想要。 不过，借助电视的魔力，我想回放一个片段。这是2024年的 Steve Paikin，解释我为什么感到沮丧：该计划本可以进行资产调查（means testing），以确保补贴流向那些真正需要的人，而不是那些根本不需要的人。想知道我当年说了什么吗？让我们看一看： “我对此做过调查。我向财政官员和专家请教过，对这些补贴进行资产调查是否过于复杂，或者直接发给所有人是否成本更低？答案显然是否定的。一点也不复杂，也不昂贵。政府完全可以通过报税单向高收入人群追回补贴，简直易如反掌（easy peasy lemon squeezy）。在有政府这么做之前，我们将继续花费7……我不知道我以前提没提过，73亿加元，去补贴很多不需要、我甚至可以说是不配得到这笔资助的人的电费账单。我是作为这些人中的一员说这番话的。我不需要每月8到9加元来补贴我的电费账单。” 好吧，我知道我得……
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: I have been talking about this issue, what's the expression I'm looking for? Ad nauseam for many years right now. I always love it when I'm in the budget lockup and the Minister of Finance Peter Bethlenfalvy hears my question and go, "Didn't you ask me that last year? Didn't you ask me that the year before?" Yes, I keep asking about this because the policy to me always seemed nonsensical that we would be subsidizing the electricity usage of people who make six-figure incomes to me is, what's the expression I'm looking for? Bananas. And and and furthermore, the notion that you can encourage people to conserve electricity, which is the best, you know, the best way to to reduce your heating bill, use less of it if you can. Uh but how it it never made sense to me that people would be encouraged to use less power if you're going to subsidize their power usage. I've always wanted to get people who need help paying their power bills that help, but I've always just thought, "Why is the government sending me a check for eight bucks every month to help subsidize my power bill?" I don't need it. I don't want it. But anyway, through the magic of television, I want to go back to a clip. Here's Steve Paikin back in 2024 explaining my frustration with the fact that this program, for example, could have been means tested to make sure that the rebate goes to those who really need it and not to those who don't need it at all. Wonder what I said back then. Let's have a look. I've looked into that. I've asked finance officials and experts about whether it is too complicated to means test these subsidies and whether it's cheaper just to give it to everybody and the answer is, apparently, no. It's not. It's not complicated or expensive at all. The government can claw back subsidies from higher-income individuals on their tax returns, it is easy peasy lemon squeezy. And until some government does that, we're going to continue to spend 7. I don't know if I've ever mentioned this before. 7.3 billion dollars subsidizing the hydro bills for a lot of people who don't need, or I might even say deserve the help. And I say that as one of those people. I don't need the 8 to 9 dollars a month to help subsidize my hydro bills. So, okay. That's I know I got to get
**Steve Paikin**: 我只是逗逗你，让你降降血压。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: I'm just kidding you to get the blood pressure back down.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 专注，专注，专注。好的。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Focus, [laughter] focus, focus. Okay.
**Steve Paikin**: 平静的蓝色大海。好的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Calm blue ocean. Yeah.
**John Michael McGrath**: 那是两年前自以为是的我。我现在依然站在那个高台上。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: That's me on my high horse 2 years ago. I'm still up on that high horse.
**Steve Paikin**: 要是去翻档案，我相信我们还能找到更多片段。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: And you know, if we went back to the archives, I'm sure we could find more clips.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 我每年预算时都会提，因为我从来看不出这有什么道理。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] Well, I know I I brought it up every year at budget time cuz I just I I I never saw how this made any sense. But, uh
**Steve Paikin**: 我想重申你在那个片段中提到的观点：确实有时候对一个项目进行资产调查的行政负担并不划算。我们之前在播客中也讨论过，因为有读者来信问我们，某些服务普遍普及（universal access）难道没有合理性吗？我认为在讨论政策变革时，这绝对是一个值得权衡的原则。但在这个具体案例中，进行资产调查并不是特别困难，你甚至可以做得相当优厚，同时依然能省下大笔资金。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: And I do want to I want to reiterate the point that you made in that clip that there are times where the administrative burden of means testing a program would not be worth doing it. And we've discussed that before on the on the podcast because I believe a reader wrote in and asked us like isn't there an argument for universal access to some services? And I think that's absolutely a principle worth weighing when we're discussing policy changes. In this specific case, it would not be terribly difficult to means test this. And and you could even be quite generous and still save a substantial amount of money.
**John Michael McGrath**: 这里的扭曲之处在于：你的房子越大，用电越多，得到的补贴就越多。而那些拥有更大房子、消耗更多电力的人，恰恰是最不需要帮助支付电费的人。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Well, the perversion of it is that the bigger your house and the more power you use, the bigger a subsidy you get. And the people with the bigger houses who use more electricity are the last people who need help paying their power bills.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yes.
**John Michael McGrath**: 所以我一直无法理解。说到开支，财政厅长本周在多伦多加拿大俱乐部（Canadian Club of Toronto）发表演讲，宣布今年的秋季经济报告将于下周四（10月29日）公布。我希望，削减电费回扣绝不是我们所能期待的唯一变化。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: So, I just never got it. Now, speaking of spending, the finance minister spoke at the Canadian Club of Toronto this week and he announced that this year's fall economic statement will be delivered next Thursday, October 29th. And fair to say, I hope, that this reduced hydro rebate is not the only change we should be expecting.
**Steve Paikin**: 对。财政厅长 Peter Bethlenfalvy 在向加拿大俱乐部的演讲中表示，将提出一项计划，“继续采取专注、有纪律且负责任的方式来管理我们的开支”。 从大体上看，我认为这次演讲释放出的信号是：政府将在支出方面更加克制。 这是政府长期以来的一个转型，尤其是自应对疫情的那些年以来。当时大量的联邦援助加上通货膨胀产生了许多困难影响，但其中一个效果是增加了流入省财政金库的资金。因此他们过了几年“来钱容易”的日子，如果我可以这么说的话。而那些日子已经过去了，政府一直在努力适应转型，虽然在做，但步调缓慢。 我认为可以肯定的是，这份秋季经济报告——通常不是公布巨额开支变动的时候，那是春季预算要做的事——秋季经济报告中，我想我们会看到许多关于控制支出的迹象。当然，演讲的另一部分是强调我们本周在联邦声明中已经看到的：继续支持特别是受关税影响的行业。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Right. Uh the finance minister Peter Bethlenfalvy, uh as part of his speech to the Canadian Club, said that will be presenting uh a plan that will quote continue taking a focused, disciplined, and responsible approach to our spending. This is all in the context of I think broadly speaking, I would say this a speech that signaled that the government is going to be more restrained in its spending. You know, and this has been a long pivot that the government has made certainly since the years of of COVID response where they, you know, the combination of first substantial federal aid and then inflation has a number of difficult effects, but one of the things it does is it increase money flowing into provincial treasuries. So, they they had a few years there where it was kind of easy money, if I could put it that way, and those years are behind us, and the government has struggled to really pivot and adapt, and they've been doing so, but slowly. And yeah, I I think it's fair to say that this fall economic statement, which is never the time that they announce massive changes in spending, that's what they do in the spring budget, but the fall economic statement will be, I imagine, we will see a lot of indications of both some spending restraint and also, of course, the other part of the speech was emphasizing what we already saw with the federal announcement this week of continuing support for particularly tariff affected industries.
**John Michael McGrath**: 毫无疑问，一周后的今天我们会在这个演播室里讨论它。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And no doubt we will talk about it on this set a week from today.
**Steve Paikin**: 确实。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Indeed.
### “你的专栏，我的专栏”：Waymo 进多伦多与政坛元老交情 **John Michael McGrath**: 就这样，我们进入“你的专栏，我的专栏”环节。 现在到了我们的常规栏目“你的专栏，我的专栏”，在其中 JMM 和我聊聊过去一周我们在 tvO.org 上撰写的内容。你先从什么话题开始？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And with that, off to your column, my column. Time now for our regular feature. We call it your column, my column, in which JMM and I have a little chat about the stuff we wrote for tvO.org over the past week. What are you starting us off with?
**Steve Paikin**: 自动驾驶汽车公司 Waymo 宣布他们想进军多伦多。他们在一些恶劣天气不是大问题的阳光城市取得了很大成功，但该公司已经宣布他们已经在芝加哥进行测试，并且一直在争取在波士顿获得批准。因此，他们至少并不害怕雪天，他们想来多伦多。对此我有一些想法。 我的意思是，这已经是一座以交通拥堵闻名的城市了。在多伦多街头增加更多汽车，即使是无人驾驶汽车，我认为也未必能让问题好转。因此我们必须讨论一下：我们将对此采取何种政策应对？我们有很多可以讨论的，对吧？ 其他城市采用了拥堵收费。这在现任省政府治下是不可能发生的。无论拥堵发生什么，我并不想产生一种本能的反对 Waymo、反对自动驾驶汽车的反应，因为其他城市的记录确实表明它们是安全得多的车辆。它们的驾驶方式保守得多，遵守交通规则也认真得多。 正因为如此，我不知道这是讽刺还是怎么的，目前有相当多的记录表明其他人类司机其实挺讨厌 Waymo 的。因为它们开得更慢，严格遵守所有的道路交通规则——而包括我在内的其他司机（我不会假装自己比多伦多其他司机更有道德），有些道路规则我们其实是选择性违背的，对吧？
Original English **Steve Paikin**: So, the automated vehicle company Waymo has announced that they want to come to Toronto. This is, you know, they've had a bunch of success in sunnier cities where inclement weather is not as big a concern, but the company is has already announced they've been testing in Chicago. They have I've also been working on getting approved in Boston. So, they at least are not afraid of snowy weather and they want to come to Toronto and I had some thoughts about that. I mean, this is already a city that is notoriously congested and adding more cars, even if they are driverless cars, to the city of Toronto, I think it will not necessarily make the problem any better and and so we have to sort of discuss about like what kind of a policy response are we going to have to this? And you know, there's a bunch of things we could talk about, right? Other cities have adopted congestion pricing. That is not going to happen under the current provincial government. Whatever happens with congestion, you know, I don't necessarily want to have a knee-jerk anti-Waymo, anti-automated vehicle response because the record from other cities really does show that they are much safer cars. They they drive much more conservatively. They adhere to the rules of the road much more fastidiously and um because of that, uh I'm not sure if this is ironic or whatever, but there is a pretty substantial record at this point of other drivers kind of hate Waymos. You know, they drive more slowly. They they they adhere to all the rules of the road that other drivers, including I like I'm not going to pretend to be more virtuous than any other driver in Toronto. Some There are some rules of the road that we adhere to in the breach, right?
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声]
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter]
**Steve Paikin**: 所以我认为这就提出了一个问题。本届省政府非常重视汽车驾驶员的抱怨——尤其是某一位特定的驾驶员，对他们眼中道路上的障碍深感恼怒。无论是自行车道，还是带摄像头的自动车速执法。 我认为一个非常有趣的问题是：如果司机们开始打 Doug Ford 的私人手机，对他尖叫抱怨这些该死的 Waymo 汽车在哪里运行，以及如果它们必然要在城市中最拥堵的区域使用的话。我非常好奇这届政府的立场会是什么，对吧？ 我们谈到了对电动汽车的投资，但对自动驾驶汽车的支持也是该政府计划的一部分。他们将其视为该行业未来的一部分，他们希望支持汽车行业。因此如果撇开省长的个人烦躁不谈，仅根据我们对该政府政策的普遍了解，我会说 Waymo 可能畅通无阻。但由于这位省长非常具体的个人恼怒，以及他动用职权意愿之强烈，我认为 Waymo 能在多伦多不受阻碍地运营多久，是一个很大的问号。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Um And so this I think poses a question. This government, this provincial government, has been extremely attuned to the complaints of motorists maybe one motorist in particular irritated by what they see as obstructions on the road. Whether that's bike lanes, whether that's automated speed enforcement with cameras. I think it's a really interesting question of like if drivers start calling up Doug Ford on his cell phone number and start screaming at him about these damn Waymo cars where these cars are going to be used and if they are going to be used like necessarily in the parts of the city that are already the most congested. I'm genuinely curious about what this government's position will be, right? You know, we talked about the investments in electric vehicles, but uh support for automated vehicles is also part of this government's uh plan. They they see that as part of the future of the industry and they want to support the auto industry. So, if it were just broadly speaking what we know about this government's policies outside of the personal irritations of the premier, I would say Waymo probably has an open door. Um because of this premier's very specific uh irritations and his willingness to use the powers of his office, I think it's questionable about how long Waymo will be allowed to operate in Toronto uh free of um encumbrances.
**John Michael McGrath**: “阻碍”，这是委婉表达“省府干预”的说辞吗？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Encumbrances, is that a nice way of saying provincial interference?
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，那是我委婉的尝试。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Uh yes, that was my my delicate attempt there.
**John Michael McGrath**: [笑声] 漂亮，说得漂亮。 好吧，你知道我有多喜欢当年那些政坛老将的故事。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: [laughter] Well done. Well done. Well, you know what a sucker I am for stories about old-timers in politics from back in the day.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的。即便他们当年曾是对头，但如今成了朋友，对我来说也是极佳的故事。David Crombie，在1972年至1978年担任多伦多市长期间，我们曾称他为“小巧完美的市长”，现在他90岁了。John Sewell 再过一两个月就满86岁了，他在 Crombie 之后接任多伦多市长，从1978年任职到1980年。 上周，Sewell 先生因在过去六十年里对省会多伦多的贡献被授予简·雅各布斯奖（Jane Jacobs prize）。而且瞧瞧这个：他说：“我接受这个奖项的唯一条件是，由 David Crombie 在颁奖典礼上为我做引言介绍。”David Crombie 照做了。 这两位当年常常意见不合、争得不可开交的人之间出现了一些非常暖心的时刻，随着岁月流逝，他们成为了相当要好的朋友。现场有一些非常友好的互动，都记录在专栏里了。我邀请大家去 tvo.org 阅读关于 Crombie 和 Sewell 的专栏文章。 事情就是这样。那我们来看看听众来信吧？
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yeah. Uh even if they were combatants back in the day, but now they're friends, to me that makes for a lovely story. David Crombie, whom we used to call the tiny perfect mayor when he was the mayor of Toronto from 1972 to 1978, he's 90 years old now. John Sewell will be 86 in a month or two. He was the mayor of Toronto after Crombie, 1978 to 1980. Last week Mr. Sewell was awarded the Jane Jacobs prize for contributions to the capital city over a six-decade period. And how about this? He said, "I will only accept the prize on the condition that David Crombie introduces me at the awards ceremony." Which David Crombie did. And there were some really lovely moments between these two guys who were often at loggerheads and at each other's throats back in the day, but who have become quite good friends as the years have marched on. Uh there were some really nice exchanges. They're all in the column. I would invite people to go to tvo.org and read the column about Crombie and Sewell. There we go. So, let's go to the mailbag, shall we?
### 听众信箱与历史“如果”：安省省长的错失与假设 **John Michael McGrath**: 好的，我们来看看。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yes, let's do that.
**Steve Paikin**: 好的，如果你有迫切想问的问题或深刻见解，我们随时欢迎您的来信。我们的电子邮箱是 onpolitics@tvo.org。JMM，你手头有什么信？
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Okay, if you've got a burning question or insightful comment, we always love hearing from you. Our email address here is onpolitics@tvo.org. JMM, what you got?
**John Michael McGrath**: 这是一封来自安大略省安格斯（Angus）的 Jake 发来的邮件，他写道： “Steve 和 JMM，你们好。我是第一次给节目写信。我是播客的忠实粉丝，它让我的通勤变得有趣得多。 我墙上挂着劳伦森大学（Laurentian）的学士学位证书，上面有 Steve 的签名，因为我毕业后就去打理家族企业了。这封邮件可能是我最接近使用该政治学学位的一次了。我知道你们通常不选边站队，也不轻易发表个人政治观点，但在安大略省的历史上，有没有人是你们觉得本来可以赢得省长之位却没参选的，或者有谁落选了从而构成了耐人寻味的历史‘如果’（what-ifs）？ 感谢你们阅读这封信，请继续保持出色的工作。Jake。”
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Uh this is an email from Jake from Angus, Ontario, who writes, "Hello Steve and JMM. First time writing into the show. Big fan of the podcast and makes my commute a lot more entertaining. I have a BA hanging on my wall from Laurentian with Steve's signature on it since I went to the family business after school. This email may be the closest I've come to using said poly-sci degree, but here we go. I know you don't tend to pick sides or weigh in on your personal political opinions, but throughout the history of Ontario, is there anyone you feel who could have won the premiership that didn't run or anyone that lost the race that could have made for some interesting historical what-ifs? Thanks for reading this and keep up the great work. Jake."
**Steve Paikin**: 很好。Jake，首先，我很高兴能挂在你的墙上，这指的是我曾担任劳伦森大学名誉校长长达7年之久，所以我猜 Jake 不是唯一一个把我带签名的证书挂在墙上的人 [笑声]。 人们常说按照脑海中闪现的第一个想法来，而我脑海中闪现的第一个想法对这个问题来说是个毫无悬念的答案。答案是 Patrick Brown，现任宾顿市（Brampton）市长。 让我们回顾一下历史：回到2018年1月，CTV News 报道称当时的安省进步保守党党领 Patrick Brown 对一些年轻女性有不当性举动。Brown 试图硬抗负面舆论一阵子，但他最终辞去了进步保守党党领职务。他们举行了新的党领竞选，Doug Ford 获胜，并在三个月后成为了安省省长。 后来证实，CTV News 那篇报道中对 Brown 的一些更具破坏性的指控是不准确的，它们是错误的。结果——或者说也许不是直接结果——但随着这些错误信息被澄清、名字得以昭雪，Brown 最终东山再起，成为了宾顿市市长。 我认为可以提出这样一个论点：如果他当时试图硬抗因 CTV 最初报道而引发的负面舆论，如果他当时坚持留任——本来就没有机制能免除他进步保守党党领的职务，他是自愿辞职的——如果他坚持下去，随后报道被证实有误的消息传出，他将在2018年6月的选举中对决 Kathleen Wynne，并且他会赢。因为安省自由党在当时极其不得民心，正如我们所知他们在该次选举中沦为第三党，而且我们知道当时无论谁担任进步保守党党领都会赢得那场选举。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Good. Jake, uh first of all, I'm delighted to be on your wall, and that just is a reference to the fact that I was the chancellor at Laurentian University for 7 years, so I suspect Jake isn't the only person who has me [laughter] up on his wall with my signature on there somewhere. I think They always say go with the first thing that comes to mind, and the first thing that comes to mind is a slam-dunk answer to this one. The answer's Patrick Brown, who is the current mayor of Brampton. And let's just review a little of the history here. If you go back to January of 2018, CTV News reported that the then Ontario Progressive Conservative Party leader Patrick Brown made some inappropriate sexual advances against some young women. Brown tried to ride out the bad publicity for a while, but he eventually resigned as the PC leader. They had a new leadership contest, Doug Ford won, and 3 months later he became the premier of Ontario. It later emerged that some of the more problematic allegations against Brown in that CTV News piece were inaccurate. They were wrong. As a result, or you know, maybe not as a direct result, but having had his name cleared as a result of that information being incorrect, Brown eventually made a comeback, and he became the mayor of Brampton. There is an argument to be made, I would suggest, that had he tried to ride out that initial bad publicity that came attached to the original CTV piece, had he just stayed on the job, there was no way to get rid of him as PC Party leader, there was no mechanism. He volunteered to leave the job, but had he stuck it out, and had the information later emerged that the piece was wrong, he would have run against Kathleen Wynne in that June 2018 election, and he'd have won, because the Ontario Liberals at that time were extremely unpopular, as we know, they came third in that election, and we know that whoever the leader of the PC Party was was going to win that election. It is.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是的，而且在此之前他已经在民调中领先了大概有三年之久。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yeah, and and he'd been leading in the polls for, I guess, it would have been 3 years at that point.
**Steve Paikin**: 是的，没错。所以如果你问我有没有谁本可以当上省长却没能当上？那是一个非常贴切的例子，而且发生在八年前。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, if you're asking me the question, is there anybody who might have been premier who never got to be premier? Well, that's one pretty good example, and it happened 8 years ago.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是的。我指出的另一个例子是另一位保守党领袖，单纯是因为我确实觉得这是一个非常迷人的“如果”。那也是我以专业身份报道的第一场省级选举，是在2014年。如果大家不记得的话，那场选举开始是因为 Kathleen Wynne 领导下的自由党政府提出了一份预算案，新民主党（NDP）表示不会支持该预算案。Kathleen Wynne 行使了她的权利，拜会了省督请求解散议会，拉开了选举序幕。 在最初的几天里，他们似乎让新民主党措手不及。新民主党本以为在表明不予支持后会有更多时间来做准备，而自由党直接说：“好吧，结束了，走起，选举时间到了。”话虽如此，那场选战刚开始的时候，看起来胜负会比最终的结果接近得多。进步保守党党领 Tim Hudak，我记得有些民调甚至显示他处于领先地位，在一开始你绝对不会断言他毫无当上省长的希望。 接着，那场选战彻底被 Hudak 削减广义公共部门10万个工作岗位的承诺所定性了。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yes. Um the other one I would point to is another Conservative leader, uh just because I I do find it, uh you know, a fascinating what if. Um it and it was also the first provincial election that I covered professionally, uh was in 2014, uh which if people don't recall, when that election started, it started because uh the uh Liberal government under Kathleen Wynne introduced a budget, the NDP signaled that they would not support it, and Kathleen Wynne, as as was her right, she went to the Lieutenant Governor, uh and asked for dissolution, and they kicked off the election. Uh they seem to have kind of wrong-footed the NDP in those initial days, the the NDP thought they would have more time to prepare, having signaled a lack of support, and the Liberals just said, "Okay, we're done. Let's go. Election time." All of that being said, when that race first started, it looked like it was going to be a closer thing than it ended up being. Uh and Tim Hudak, uh leader of the Progressive Conservative Party, I think there were certainly some polls that showed him in the lead, uh and and you would not have said from the outset that there was like no way he was going to be premier, certainly. And uh then this this ended up being the uh the the race um really defined by uh Hudak's pledge to shrink the broader public sector by what was it, 100,000 jobs?
**Steve Paikin**: 嗯。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Mhm.
**John Michael McGrath**: 那成了自由党死死套在他脖子上的枷锁，在整个竞选期间逼他一直背着。抛开那场选举中发生的其他事情，考虑到自那之后发生的一切，我真的经常思考：如果 Tim Hudak 在2014年获胜，他大概在2018年仍将是党领。关于2018年选举的那整出闹剧就根本不会发生，对吧？ 然后你就会面临这个问题：多数省长至少能获得两届任期，对吧？
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: And that became the clip that the Liberals really hung around his neck and made him wear for the entirety of the campaign. And um whatever else happened in in that election, uh with everything that has happened since, I really do find myself wondering, you know, i- so if Tim Hudak had won in 2014, he would have still presumably been leader in 2018. Uh th- th- that whole drama about the 2018 election would simply have never happened, right? Um And then you have this question of Okay, let's you know, most premiers have gotten at least two uh two mandates, right?
**Steve Paikin**: 每一个赢得选举的自由党和保守党省长都赢得了连任。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Every single Liberal and Tory premier who won an election got a second election.
**John Michael McGrath**: 对。所以我们为了论证不妨假设 Tim Hudak 在2014年至2022年期间担任省长。那么他将在极高通胀、疫情后的环境中竞选连任，坦白说，这在历史上对当时寻求连任的每一个政府来说都是难以置信地艰难。显然，这就进入了非常非常推测性的领域。但正如我所说，这是我会思考的一个设想，不仅是因为思考这些“如果”很有趣，也是因为2014年选举是我以专业身份报道的第一场选举。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Right. Uh so let's just assume arguendo that uh the the Tim Hudak is then premier uh from 2014 to 2022. He then is running for re-election in an extremely high inflation, post-COVID environment uh that would frankly be uh what was historically incredibly difficult for every government that was running for re-election at at that time. Obviously, that gets into very, very speculative territory. Uh but uh that is one that I think about as I say, you know, uh both because you know, it's it's fun to consider the what if and also just because the 2014 election was the first one that I covered uh professionally.
**Steve Paikin**: 这里有许多耐人寻味的假设。如果 Tim Hudak 现在坐在这个桌子前，他会说：“我从来没有威胁要解雇10万人。”
Original English **Steve Paikin**: There's a lot of delicious what ifs there. And I w- and I if Tim Hudak were at this table right now, he would say, "I never threatened to fire 100,000 people.
**John Michael McGrath**: 确实如此。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: It's true.
**Steve Paikin**: 当时的承诺一直是在广义公共部门中削减10万个职位。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: The promise was always to eliminate 100,000 positions in the broader public service,
**John Michael McGrath**: 是的。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yes.
**Steve Paikin**: 我们说的是一个上百万人的庞大体系。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: which, you know, that we're talking a million people here.
**John Michael McGrath**: 是的。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yes.
**Steve Paikin**: 而且他认为很大程度上仅通过自然减员（attrition）就可以实现目标。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: And um and he thought you could get a long way there just through attrition.
**John Michael McGrath**: 确实。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Yes.
**Steve Paikin**: 但自由党非常聪明地把这个像信天翁一样挂在他的脖子上。他们说他想摧毁公共服务，公众买账了，Kathleen Wynne 带着多数政府归来。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: But uh the Liberals very cleverly hung that around his neck like an albatross. They said he wanted to gut public services. Public bought it, and Kathleen Wynne came back with a majority government.
**John Michael McGrath**: 好吧，我希望 Tim 不会介意我说这个。其中一个议题——显然这个议题后来一直跟随着自由党政府，直到福特政府不仅当选而且连任——在便利店销售啤酒和葡萄酒的问题。Hudak 领导的进步保守党曾经放风说要引入，但最终并没有写入正式政纲中。 在福特当选后，当时 Tim Hudak 已经离开省政坛好几年了，但他担任安省房地产协会的职务。他回到省议会参加一项发布会，我当时问过他一次：“现在的福特政府真正全力推进在便利店售卖啤酒和葡萄酒了。你是否曾想过，如果你当年坚持己见，在2014年真正有信心提出这一方案，你可能会赢得那场选举？你觉得自己错失良机了吗？” 他说：“我们当时做了我们宣布的那些决定。如果我们赢了，我们依然会那么做。”
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Okay, I hope Tim will not mind me saying this. One of the issues and this obviously was an issue that continued to to follow uh the the Liberal government and then until uh the the Ford government was was not just elected but reelected, the question of beer and wine in corner stores was something that uh you know, had had it the the Hudak PCs had sort of made noises about that they would introduce and then it was not in their final platform. And after Ford was elected and at this point Tim Hudak had been out of provincial politics for several years, but he was part of the Ontario realtors. He was back at Queen's Park doing an announcement and I I did ask him at one point, you know, so like the the the Ford government is now really going all in on on beer and wine in corner stores. Do you ever think that maybe you might have won that election if you had stuck to your guns and actually, you know, had the confidence to make that proposal back in 2014. Do you think you missed a trick? And he says, "Well, I mean, we made the announcements we did. If we'd won, we still would have done it."
### 结尾与往期预告 **Steve Paikin**: [笑声] 我还以为他要揍你呢。他没揍你，他没揍你，好吧。 你要不要报一下邮箱地址，然后我们就收工？
Original English **Steve Paikin**: [laughter] I thought he was going to hit you. He didn't hit you. He didn't hit you. Okay. Well, do you want to give the email address and we'll get out of here?
**John Michael McGrath**: 好的。再次提醒，如果您想就我们节目中的任何内容提问，请发邮件至 onpolitics@tvO.org。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Right. Again, if you'd like to ask about any content on our show, please email us at onpolitics@tvO.org.
**Steve Paikin**: 顺便说最后一句，关于我们上周进行的省长墓地之旅：我们去了森林山公墓（Mount Pleasant Cemetery），看到了长眠在那里的五位已故省长。之后我们去了哪里来着？议会街与布鲁尔街交界的圣詹姆斯公墓（St. James Cemetery），又看了两位省长。 如果你碰巧在奥沙瓦（Oshawa），而且在奥沙瓦联合公墓（Oshawa Union Cemetery）附近，你会找到这个人的长眠之所：Gordon Conant 就埋在那里。去看看他的墓地吧，确认一下那块金色的铭牌还在不在。每位前省长那里都应该有一块铭牌。Gordon Conant 就在那，去看看他，确认他一切安好。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: And let me say one last thing apropos of the premier's gravesite tour that we took last week, we went down to Mount Pleasant Cemetery, we saw five deceased premiers who were buried there. Then we went to Where did we go to? Parliament and Bloor to St. James Cemetery after that. We saw two more premiers. If you happen to be out in Oshawa and you're anywhere near the Oshawa Union Cemetery, you'll find this guy. Gordon Conant is buried there and you know, go check out his gravesite. Make sure the golden plaque is there. Every ex-premier is supposed to get a plaque there. So, Gordon Conant's there. Go check him out. Make sure he's okay.
**John Michael McGrath**: 如果你看了上周节目中大约10分钟时长的墓地之旅剪辑版，现在 YouTube 上推出了加长版，30分钟的完整版本，大家可以去观看。里面还有中场休息呢，拿上爆米花去看看吧。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: If you caught the whatever the 10-minute cut of our gravesite tour on the show last week, there's now an extended edition, a 30-minute cut that is now on YouTube that you can see. You know, there's an intermission, get some popcorn.
**Steve Paikin**: 绝对精彩，杰瑞，绝对精彩。去看那个吧，整整30分钟精彩绝伦的省长墓地之旅。我们很喜欢，太棒了。 不管怎样，这就是2026年10月23日星期五的 OnPoli 播客。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: It's gold, Jerry. It's gold. Go see that one. 30 minutes long. 30 minutes of scintillating premier's gravesite tours. We loved it. It was great. Anyway, that is the On Poli podcast for this Friday, October 23rd, 2026.
**John Michael McGrath**: 您可以在任何收听播客的平台上关注我们的节目，以便在新一期上线时收到通知；您还可以在 TVO Today 的 YouTube 频道上观看播客的视频版。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts so that you get notified each time a new episode is available, and you can see the video version of the podcast on the TVO today YouTube channel.
**Steve Paikin**: 任何反馈我们都非常乐意倾听，无论是好是坏还是中立。请写信至 onpolitics@tvo.org，并请附上您的姓名以及来自哪里。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Any feedback you have, we're always happy to hear it, good, bad, or indifferent. Write us an email at onpolitics@tvo.org. Please include your first and last name and where you're from.
**John Michael McGrath**: 本周节目的制作人是 Matthew O'Mara，剪辑由 Colin Kish 负责。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: This week's episode was produced by Matthew O'Mara, editing by Colin Kish.
**Steve Paikin**: 制作支持来自 Jonathan Hallowell 和 TVO 的数字媒体服务团队。
Original English **Steve Paikin**: Production support from Jonathan Hallowell and TVO's digital media services team.
**John Michael McGrath**: 数字业务执行制片人是 Laurie Few，媒体副总裁是 Vanessa Case。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Lori Few is the executive producer of digital. Vanessa Case is vice president media.
**Steve Paikin**: 我们总要特别感谢演播室出色的幕后团队，是他们让播客的视频部分看起来如此棒。谢谢大家！各位，下周五见。拜拜！
Original English **Steve Paikin**: We always like to offer special thanks to the wonderful studio crew for making the video part of the podcast look so darn good. So, thanks, guys, and until next Friday, everybody. Bye-bye.
**John Michael McGrath**: 拜拜。
Original English **John Michael McGrath**: Bye-bye.