--- author: TVO Today date: '2026-03-25' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oX6AxcVfmU speaker: TVO Today tags: - ndp-relevance - political-strategy - leadership-race - working-class-politics - populism title: 加拿大人民还需要新民主党吗？领导层之争与未来之路 summary: 本次访谈探讨了加拿大新民主党（NDP）在当前政治格局中的相关性、领导层选举的挑战以及其未来发展方向。两位嘉宾Kim Wright和Luke Savage就NDP的定位、与自由党及保守党的关系、如何重拾工薪阶层支持、以及领导层候选人代表的愿景进行了深入讨论。尽管面临选举困境，嘉宾们普遍认为NDP依然重要，关键在于能否回归其核心价值观，以更具说服力的方式与选民沟通，并展现出领导党派走向执政的决心与能力。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: - NDP products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 加拿大新民主党（NDP）的挑战与未来 **主持人**: 赢得联邦新民主党（NDP）领导权的人，将面临一项艰巨的任务，即重建党派并证明其是加拿大人明确的替代选择。♪ Kim Wright是Right Strategies的负责人兼创始人，也是一位长期的NDP顾问；Luke Savage是一位记者，也是《The Dead Centre: Reflections on Liberalism and Democracy After the End of History》一书的作者。很高兴请到你们二位。在我们关注本周末的NDP领导层大会之前，我想先回顾一下。在上次联邦大选中，94%的加拿大选民对NDP投了反对票。所以，Kim，我不得不问，NDP对加拿大人来说还重要吗？
Original English **Host**: Whoever wins the federal NDP leadership race will end up with a tough assignment, building the party back up and proving it's a clear alternative for Canadians. ♪ Kim Wright is the principal and founder of Right Strategies and a longtime NDP consultant, and Luke Savage is a journalist and author of The Dead Centre Reflections on Liberalism and Democracy After the End of History. Great to have you both on the show. Let's start before we even look at the NDP leadership convention this weekend. I want to have a look back. In the last federal election, 94% of Canadian voters said no to the NDP. So, Kim, I have to ask, does the NDP matter to Canadians?
**Kim Wright**: 哦，绝对重要。因为如果看几个月前，我们正朝着获得相当数量席位稳步前进。加拿大人对新民主党（New Democrats），特别是在上一个少数派议会中，所期待的是像**牙科保健计划**（dental care program）这样的事情，该计划已帮助成千上万的加拿大人获得了牙科保健。它对加拿大人很重要，新民主党在少数派议会、多数派议会，乃至在我们执政的许多省份都发出了自己的声音。所以它绝对重要，并且会重新崛起。坦率地说，竞选活动有时会起伏不定，甚至保守党在Jean Charest和Elsie Wayne的领导下也曾跌至两个席位。所以总会有起伏。
Original English >> Oh, absolutely. Because if you looked a few months before that, we were well on track for quite a number of seats. What Canadians were looking for from the New Democrats, in particular in the last minority parliament, were things like the dental care program, which has helped thousands and thousands of Canadians and have access to dental care. And it has mattered to Canadians, the voice that the New Democrats have had in minority parliaments, in majority parliaments, and frankly, in a lot of provinces where we're the government. So it absolutely does matter and will get back up there. Frankly, campaign campaigns happen sometimes, and even conservatives went down to two seats when with Jean Charest and Elsie Wayne. So there's always a bounce.
**主持人**: Luke，请你发表意见。加拿大人是否已经不再对NDP感兴趣了？
Original English >> Luke, I'll get you in. There are Canadians simply no longer interested in the NDP?
**Luke Savage**: 嗯，你知道，说任何事物都比以往任何时候都更重要，这有点陈词滥调。所以，当我这么说的时候，我有点不自在。但说实话，我认为NDP在目前比以往任何时候都更重要。我这么说有两个原因。第一，我想，你知道，我绝对同意Kim所说的一切。但我认为，你知道，自由党（Liberals）已经不再真正地假装是一个中间偏左的政党了。所以，显然，像NDP这样的政党，以及它的声音和它所提供的，比传统上所拥有的空间还要大，我认为这非常重要。但第二点我想说的是，你知道，当NDP，或者更确切地说，它的前身**CCF**（Cooperative Commonwealth Federation），在20世纪30年代成立时，你知道，这并不是一对一的比较。但，你知道，我认为我们正经历着一个类似的时代，你知道，政治、经济和地缘政治都发生了深刻的变化。我认为这个时刻需要一种回应，你知道，提供同样的**激进雄心**（radical ambition）精神。所以，我认为在几个不同的方面，NDP当然是相关的。
Original English >> Well, you know, I think it's trite to say that anything is more relevant than ever. So I'm a little self-conscious in saying that. But truly, I do think the NDP is more relevant than ever at the moment. And I say that for two reasons. One, I mean, I think that, you know, I would agree with everything that Kim said for sure. But I think, you know, the Liberals are not even really pretending to be a centre left party anymore. So clearly there's even more space than, you know, there's traditionally been for a party like the NDP and, you know, its voice and its offer, I think, is very important. But the second thing I'd say here is that, you know, when the NDP, or rather its predecessor, the CCF, was founded in 1930s, you know, it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. But, you know, I think we're living through a similar time of, you know, quite profound political and economic and geopolitical change. And I think that the moment calls for, you know, response that, you know, offers the same spirit of, of, of radical ambition. So I think in a few different senses, the NDP is certainly relevant.
**主持人**: 我们稍后会谈谈机会。但Kim，我确实必须问，在NDP领导层竞选中，人们一直在反思过去十年左右的时间里出了什么问题。你对这个问题有什么答案？
Original English >> And we'll talk a little bit about the opportunities a little later. But Kim, I do have to ask, there has been a lot of soul searching in the NDP leadership race about what has gone wrong over the last decade or so. What's your answer to that question?
**Kim Wright**: 嗯，有很多问题。>>出错了。但最终，党派，这在每个党派中都会出现。你是想成为一个辩论学会，还是想执政并为人们的日常生活带来真正的巨大改变？这始终是各党派问自己的问题，尤其是新民主党人。我们在安大略省北部、温莎草原以及全国各地看到的反对声音的一部分是，新民主党花费了太多时间成为那个辩论学会，谈论所有主义，而不是真正重要的事情、实际的解决方案，并以影响人们生活的方式传达。所以我们需要找回我们的**swagger**（自信/魄力），但我们也需要与人们站在他们所处的位置交流。长期以来，我们一直陷入那种辩论学会的心态。
Original English >> Well, there's a lot that's. >> Gone, right. But ultimately, the party and this comes in every party. Are you looking to be a debate society or are you looking to govern and make real massive change to people's daily lives? And that is always the question that parties ask themselves, in particular New Democrats. And part of the pushback that we saw in places like northern Ontario and Windsor Prairies and frankly, across the country, was the New Democrats spent too much time being that debate society, that urbanists talk about all the isms versus what actually mattered and real solutions and conveyed in a way that impacted people's lives. So we needed our swagger back, but we also just needed to talk to people where they're at. And for far too long, we've been getting into that debate society mindset.
**主持人**: 我认为NDP的临时领导人**Don Davies**会同意这一点。他曾在夏天说过，NDP过于关注身份政治。Luke，他说我们没有谈论真正的问题，没有谈论大多数工薪阶层目前正在面对的困境。你怎么看？
Original English >> I think the interim leader of the NDP, Don Davies, would agree with that. Of course, he had said in the summer that the NDP had focused too much on identity politics, politics and Luke. He said that we're not talking about the real issues, not what most working class people are struggling with right now. What do you think of that?
**Luke Savage**: 嗯，我想我必须稍微不赞同Kim的观点，因为在过去的10到15年里，我并没有看到NDP成为一个辩论学会。你知道，我认为，相反，我们看到的是大量的**中央集权**。在领导人办公室，我们，你知道，党派的沟通方式一直相当直接，通常是好事。你知道，我们在领导层竞选的背景下经常听到，你知道，NDP变得非常学术化，或者，你知道，正如Kim所说，有很多，你知道，关于主义和之类的辩论。我只是真的没看到这一点。而且，你知道，我当然对**Jagmeet Singh**的领导层有批评，但也有很多赞扬。但我认为，即使是那些对他非常批评的人，也绝不会指责他或党派在过去十年左右的时间里，说话方式不像非常实在、切实的。我的意思是，我认为这通常是我们所看到的。所以，我认为问题不仅仅是品牌或沟通之类的问题。
Original English >> Well, I'm going to, I think, respectfully disagree with Kim a little bit here, because I haven't seen the NDP be a debate society for the past 10 or 15 years. You know, I think instead, what we've seen is, is a lot of centralization. And the leader's office, we've you know, there's been, I think, a pretty fairly direct communication style from the party often, often for the better. You know, I, we keep hearing heard a lot in the context of leadership race, you know, the NDP is become very kind of academic or, you know, as Kim said, there's a lot of, you know, debating over isms and stuff. I just I just really haven't seen this. And, you know, I have criticisms of Jagmeet Singh his leadership, certainly, and lots of praise for it in other aspects as well. But I don't think that even people who are quite critical of him would ever accuse him or of the party over the last ten years or so of speaking in a, you know, in anything but quite a bread and butter way. I mean, I think that's generally what we've seen. So I think the problems go beyond problems of branding or communications or anything like that.
**Kim Wright**: 你想回应吗？>>是的。我的意思是，当你开始谈论像**民生问题**（bread and butter issues）这样的事情时，这其中也带有一些辩论学会的方面，对吧？我在安大略省南部的一个小镇长大，那里多年来深受贸易政策的影响。我的母亲最终在一家制造炉子的工厂找到了一份工作。但在那之前。哦，天哪。我们小时候生活很艰难。而且，你知道，得益于社区，你知道，我们得以茁壮成长，得益于加拿大和安大略省的各项计划。我现在是一家企业的经营者，你知道，我们如何与人们沟通，站在他们的角度？有一种观念是，太多的标语牌，太多的主义，太多的辩论学会，而不够关注人们在哪里。你知道，我们已经偏离了这一点。坦率地说，一些选举结果已经表明了这一点，而过度的城市中心主义并不总是好事，因为我们无法用人们所处的语言向他们解释事情。你知道，这很有趣。**Jack Layton**过去常说，至少看看现在有什么电影上映，了解流行文化和流行文化参考。能够与人们沟通，而我们作为新民主党人有时在这方面做得不好。所以我欢迎新的尝试。
Original English >> Kim, did you want to respond? >> Yeah. I mean, when you start talking about things like bread and butter issues, there is a bit of a debate society aspect to that, right? I grew up in a small town in rural southern Ontario that was very much impacted over the years of, of trade policies. My mother ultimately was able to get a job in a factory making furnaces. But before that. Oh boy. It was a hard life that we had growing up. And, you know, thanks to community, you know, we were able to thrive thanks to the programs that happen in Canada and in Ontario. I now get to sit here as someone who runs a business and, you know, how do we talk to people where they're at? And, and there is this notion of too much of the placards and too much of the isms and too much of this debate society and not enough of where people are. You know, I, you know, we've, we've gotten away from that. And, and frankly, some of the election results have shown that and too much of an urbanism isn't always a great thing when we can't explain to people in the language that they're living what things are. You know, it's interesting. Jack Layton used to say, at least look to see what movies are coming out these days, understand pop culture and pop culture references. Being able to, to, to communicate with folks and, and we're not very good at that sometimes as New Democrats. So I welcome the new versions of that.
**主持人**: 好的。说到新版本，让我们把注意力转向当前的NDP领导层竞选。这是一场三方角逐。你有一位局外人，码头工人**Rob Ashton**；一位来自政治世家的内部人士，**Avi Lewis**，他的父亲曾是安大略省NDP的领导人，他的祖父曾是NDP的联邦领导人；还有一位是现任国会议员**Heather McPherson**，她代表着埃德蒙顿-斯特拉斯科纳选区。Luke，这三个选择对NDP的未来意味着什么？
Original English >> Okay. Speaking of new versions, well, let's shift our attention to the NDP leadership race right now. It is a three horse race. You have the outsider longshoremen Rob Ashton, the insider from a dynastic family, Avi Lewis, whose father, of course, was Ontario NDP leader and whose grandfather was the federal leader of the NDP. And then to round it out, you have someone who is a sitting MP, Heather McPherson, representing Edmonton-Strathcona. Luke, what do these three choices represent for the future of the NDP?
**Luke Savage**: 嗯，我认为正如我们在竞选过程中所看到的，我认为所有候选人都热衷于强调，他们在很多方面都有共识。我认为竞选中出现了一些事情，我认为这些事情关系重大，并且在这些事情上他们看法不一。第一，我认为你已经看到了，你知道，到目前为止，对话中比较礼貌地出现的，也许是相互竞争的诊断或不同的诊断，关于到底出了什么问题。你知道，有些人认为这只是一个沟通问题。我完全同意Kim所说的一切。我认为，你知道，总能沟通得更好，而且有时左翼在沟通方面做得并不好。但我认为问题本身比这要深一些。我认为，其次，另一件大事是，你知道，NDP使用的选举模式，尤其是在安大略省以西，能否以及是否应该扩大到联邦层面？这方面也有一些，你知道，分歧。我认为第三，快速地说，你知道，存在分歧，而且是合法的分歧，关于，你知道，你可以在多大程度上围绕政策动员人们？Lewis的竞选团队采取了一种观点，即追求重大政策。非常、非常直接地传达它们，重大政策易于解释。而且，你知道，他们无疑借鉴了**Zohran Mamdani**的例子，你知道，其他人则不这么认为。你知道，感觉你真的不能，你知道，选民对政策不那么感兴趣。你不能那样激发他们。所以，我认为所有这些事情都在竞选中得到了体现。而且人们，人们经常对它们持有不同意见。
Original English >> Well, I mean, I think as we've seen during the race and I think it's all the candidates have been keen to Emphasize, there's plenty on which they agree. I think there have been you know, there have been a number of things that have come out in the race that I think are at stake and over which I think there's less agreement. One, and I think you've seen it, you know, come out rather politely here in the conversation so far is perhaps competing diagnoses or different diagnoses about what exactly has gone wrong. You know, some people think it's just a communications problem. I wouldn't disagree at all with everything Kim said. I think, you know, there's can always communicate better, and sometimes the left is not very good at communicating. But I think the problem is personally go a little deeper than that. I think, secondly, one of the other big things that's come out is, you know, can the model, the electoral model used by the NDP, particularly west of Ontario, can that and should that be scaled up to the federal level? There's some, you know, disagreement about that as well. And I think just thirdly, quickly, you know, there's a there's a disagreement and very legitimate disagreement about, you know, to what extent can you mobilize people around policy? The Lewis campaign has taken one view, which is that you go for big policies. You communicate them very, very directly, big policies that are easy to explain. And, you know, they've certainly borrowed, I think, from the Zohran Mamdani example there, you know, others don't feel that way. There's, you know, feeling that you can't really, you know, voters are not as interested in policy. You don't animate them that way. So I think all of these things have really come out in the race. And people, people often disagree about them.
**主持人**: Kim，你支持Rob Ashton。Luke，你支持Avi Lewis。我很好奇，Kim，对于一个选举结果如此糟糕的政党，为什么不选择像Heather McPherson这样实际赢过选举的候选人呢？更不用说来自阿尔伯塔省的她了。
Original English >> Kim, you have endorsed Rob Ashton. Luke, you've endorsed Avi Lewis. I'm curious, Kim, for a party with such poor electoral results, why not choose someone like Heather McPherson, a candidate who's actually won, let alone an Alberta of all places?
**Kim Wright**: 好的，我看了。>>所有候选人，并且多年来与其中一些人，甚至大多数人进行了交谈。我关注的事情之一，而且那晚我碰巧在**伯纳比**（Burnaby）参加选举之夜，那天晚上很糟糕，我碰巧有机会和一个人在活动上交谈，他就是Rob Ashton。我们进行了长时间的交谈，关于党派的黑暗日子。我们如何重建？那是什么样的？然后，在我关注Rob Ashton的竞选活动时，他展现出了那种**swagger**（自信/魄力）。他摆脱了**Pierre Poilievre**和**Doug Ford**那种为工人阶级装腔作势的政治。这是一个不仅在第一线辛勤工作，还进行谈判和达成协议的人，如何推进这些事情？如何在谈话中吸引人们，在你能够保护他们的地方保护他们，并继续前进？我看到其他竞选活动并没有真正做到这些。而且，嗯，Lewis先生是那个王朝的一部分，在那些非常黑暗的日子里，无论是在联邦层面还是在安大略省，都没有那种“嘿，我们该如何埋头苦干，解决这个问题，重建，吸引新的候选人，带来新的声音？”所以这些是我关注的事情，关注他们在议会中的表现。他们是否有swagger和活力？我如何向我的朋友和家人——那些不一定是铁杆新民主党人——介绍他们的候选资格？这就是我得出Rob Ashton的结论的方式，他是那个我绝对致力于支持的人。
Original English >> So look, I've looked at. >> All the candidates and have had conversations with some of them, most of them over the years. One of the things that I've looked at, and it turned out I was in Burnaby on election night, as dismal as that night was, and happened to have an opportunity to talk to a guy at the event turned into being Rob Ashton. And we talked at length about, you know, the dark days of the party. How do we rebuild? What does that look like? And then, as I have watched Rob Ashton's campaign unfold, there has been that swagger. There has been that move away from the cosplay politics that Pierre Poilievre and Doug Ford have definitely done around workers. This is a guy who has not only been on those lines doing the work, but also negotiating agreements and, and how do you move those things forward? How do you bring people along in the conversation, help people where you can protect them where you can and move forward? I look at other campaigns who haven't necessarily, you know, done the work. And, well, you know, Mr. Lewis is part of the of a dynasty in some of those very dark days, as we were rebuilding the party, either federally or here in Ontario, there wasn't that like, hey, how do we put the put the shoulder to the grindstone and fix this and rebuild and bring in those new candidates and bring in those new voices? So those are the things that I have looked at and looked to how do they perform in Parliament? Sure. How do they have a swagger and an energy? How can I talk to my friends and family who aren't necessarily, you know, dyed in the wool in New Democrats about their candidacies? And that is how I got to the conclusion of Rob Ashton is, is is someone that I am absolutely committed to supporting.
**主持人**: Luke，我想听听你的看法。你谈到了沟通以及NDP党派的困境。嗯，如果你有一位已经在议会中的国会议员，与人沟通就会容易得多。为什么不选择像Heather McPherson这样的人呢？
Original English >> Luca, I want to get your take. You talk about communication in the struggles for the NDP party there. Well, you know, if you have an MP that's already in the House, it makes it a lot easier to communicate what you need. Why not go for someone like Heather McPherson?
**Luke Savage**: 我非常尊重Heather McPherson，尤其是她所做的工作，以及她在**巴勒斯坦**（Palestine）问题上，在众议院所展现的领导力。她在那里确实是一位领导者。但我认为，对于NDP来说，尤其如此。对吧？你知道，被认为是合法或有竞争力的领导候选人的标准，不能仅仅是他们有一位议员在众议院。对吧？因为，你知道，历史上NDP赢得的席位比其他政党少得多。你知道，你知道，Jack Layton在当选之前曾多次失败。许多后来在党内扮演了非常重要角色的人，无论是作为国会议员还是作为党领袖，都经历过这种情况。所以我认为，你知道，这可能是一个重要的考量因素。当然，这绝不是唯一的考量因素。
Original English >> Well, I have a lot of respect for Heather McPherson, in particular. The the work she's done, the leadership she's shown on the question on the issue of Palestine in the House of Commons. She's very much been a leader there. But I think that for the NDP especially. Right. You know, the criterion for who can be considered a legitimate or a viable leadership candidate, it can't be that they have a seat in the House of Commons. Right? Because, you know, the NDP wins a lot fewer seats historically, right, than other parties. And, you know, you know, Jack Layton was defeated multiple times before he was elected. It's been true of many people who've gone on to play very important roles in the party, either as MPs or indeed as party leaders. So I don't I don't think that that, you know, you know, might be an important consideration. It's certainly not certainly not the only one.
**主持人**: Luke，请继续。你知道，当我们谈论进步政策时，这是NDP的强项。然而，当我们谈论，我们可以谈论，你知道，**财富税**（wealth tax），例如，它在民意调查中表现非常出色。然而，NDP党派在这方面却存在差距。请帮助我理解这里的脱节之处。
Original English >> Luke, stick with me here. You know, when we talk about progressive policies, this is in the wheelhouse of the NDP. Yet when we're talking about we can talk about, you know, the wealth tax, for example, they pull it polls really well. Yet there is a disparity when it comes to the NDP party. Help me understand where the disconnect is there.
**Luke Savage**: 我认为有几点可以说明这一点。我的意思是，首先是，你知道，仅仅因为某些事情在民意调查中表现良好，你知道，这并不总意味着，你知道，选民不会仅仅看他们偏好的事情，然后说，好吧，我想要一个财富税。当然。那么哪个政党支持财富税呢？这显然比这要复杂得多。就NDP而言，对吧？你知道，联邦NDP必须应对所谓的**策略性投票**（strategic voting）的疯狂。所以这是一个真正的问题，它面临着。就像，你知道，任何为NDP拉票的人都知道，你经常会遇到说，“嘿，我基本上同意你们的一切。但是，你知道，我得投票给自由党，因为我太害怕**Pierre Poilievre**或**Donald Trump**（视情况而定）了。”所以这是其一。第二点我想说的是，你知道，NDP必须能够说服人们，它提供的替代方案实际上是可行的。我认为选民普遍存在一种**犬儒主义**（cynicism）和——有充分理由的犬儒主义和怀疑主义——认为某些事情实际上是可以实现的，因为人们没有经历过。对吧？人们没有，你知道，前几代人可能经历了**医保**（Medicare）的创建或**福利国家**（welfare state）的建立。你不需要向他们解释政府可以做这些事情。但我认为，特别是对于我这一代人，比我年轻的人——因为我也不年轻了。你知道，他们没有经历过这种政治运动。所以，这是NDP面临的障碍之一。它真的必须能够向人们证明，你知道，这不仅仅是空想。我们可以真正做些事情。我们有真正的解决方案，你知道，可以让你付的房租更便宜，让你吃的食物更便宜，让你的生活更好。
Original English >> I think there's a few things to to to be said about this. I mean, the first is that, you know, just because things pull well, you know, that does not always mean that, you know, voters don't just only look at things that, you know, look at their preferences and say, well, I'd like a wealth tax. Sure. So which party supports a wealth tax? It's obviously more complicated than that. In the case of the NDP, right. You know, the federal NDP has to deal with the, you know, madness of so-called strategic voting. So that's a real that's a real problem that it faces. Like, you know, anyone who's canvassed for the NDP knows that you will often meet voters who say, well, hey, I agree with you guys on basically everything. But, you know, I got to vote for the Liberals because I'm so, you know, afraid of Pierre Poilievre or Donald Trump, right. As the case may be. So that's one thing. The second thing I'd say here is that, you know, the NDP has to be able to convince people that the alternatives it's offering are actually possible. And I think there's kind of an overriding cynicism and a well-founded cynicism and scepticism from, you know, the broad electorate, that certain things can actually happen because people haven't experienced this, right? People haven't, you know, previous generations that may have lived through the creation of Medicare or the establishment of the welfare state. You don't have to explain to them that it's possible for the government to do these things. But I think particularly, for people of my generation, people, younger than me because I'm not that young anymore. You know, they haven't experienced this kind of this kind of, political movement. And so that is one of the obstacles that the NDP faces. It really has to be able to, demonstrate to people that, you know, this is not just wish casting. We can actually do stuff. We have real solutions that, you know, can make your rent cheaper, can make your food cheaper, can make your life better.
**主持人**: Kim，加拿大保守党（Conservative Party of Canada）成功吸引了许多工薪阶层选票。总的来说，右翼民粹主义成功地利用了工薪阶层的诉求。NDP和进步左翼是否有一个利用这种民粹主义愤怒的机会？
Original English >> Kim, the Conservative Party of Canada has been able to bring in many working class votes. And in general, right right wing populism has been able to tap into those grievances of that working class. Is there an opportunity, here for the NDP and the progressive left to tap into that populist anger?
**Kim Wright**: 哦，绝对是。但更重要的是，它关乎你如何与人们沟通，让他们感觉，让一切看起来非常真实，而且必须是真实的。必须是那种我常说的**swagger**（自信/魄力）。你是否有过亲身经历？所以当你看到，你知道，**Rob Ashton**对阵**Pierre Poilievre**的**cosplay**（模仿/装扮），他甚至没有取下他买的工作靴上的价签，就试图假装自己是工人。你知道，这是两者之间一个清晰的对立。让我感兴趣的是，当我们开始这场领导层竞选时，有这种想法，哦，我们很快就要举行联邦大选了。也许我们甚至无法完成NDP的领导层选举。坦率地说，随着**红牌**（Red Rover）游戏的淘汰，情况并非如此。你知道，我们不会很快去联邦投票。所以，无论领导人是谁，当他们本周末当选时，他们就有机会去建设那些竞选协会，寻找那些明星候选人，展示他们的**sparkle**（闪光点）和**swagger**（自信/魄力），并向**Wab Kinew**这样的人学习，如何将党派建设成执政联盟，如何让人们相信你不仅应该走向执政，而且在众议院也拥有宝贵的声音。你知道，建设一个政党，重建一个政党，从来都不是容易的。但是，你知道，当我们看看**Ed Broadbent**或**Jack Layton**的例子时，哦，天哪，这是可以做到的。我对未来潜力感到兴奋。
Original English >> Oh, absolutely. But more importantly, it's about how do you communicate to people in a way that makes you feel, makes everything seem very authentic, and it has to be authentic. It has to be that swagger I talk about. Have you had that lived experience? So when you look at, you know, a Rob Ashton versus Pierre Poilievre cosplay where he hasn't, frankly, even taken the price tags off those work boots he bought to try to pretend he's a working guy. You know, it it it is a clear, dichotomy of the two. What is interesting to me is when we started this in a leadership campaign, there was this, oh, we're going to be in a federal election in mere moments. Maybe we won't even get to the end of the NDP leadership. That, frankly, hasn't been true in the way that the attrition has worked. The parliament version of Red Rover. Red Rover, you know, we are not going to the polls federally any time soon. So that leader, whenever they are, when they're elected this weekend, has that opportunity to go and build up those riding associations, find those star candidates, showcase their sparkle and swagger, and learn from folks like Wab Kinew, about how how to build that party to a governing stance and how to make people believe that both you should be getting towards government, but also that you have a valuable voice in the House of Commons. You know, it's never easy to build a political party, and build back a political party. But, you know, when we look at the examples like Ed Broadbent or Jack Layton, oh, boy, can it be done? And I'm excited about what the, potential of that is going forward.
**主持人**: 重建，Luke，我们来谈谈这个。NDP是否需要回归其民粹主义根源？
Original English >> Building back, let's talk on that, Luke. Does the NDP need to return, to its populist roots?
**Luke Savage**: 我认为是的，我的意思是，我认为，你知道，我们不需要字面上的回归。我认为，你知道，如果NDP要重新采用**里贾纳宣言**（Regina manifesto）之类的东西，或者以20世纪30年代的方式进行沟通和竞选。显然，这没有意义。但我认为，NDP的根源非常深厚，你知道，是**社会主义**（socialist）和**激进**（radical）以及**民粹主义**（populist）的。我认为，我认为它应该扎根于此。我认为我们只需要做现代版的它。你知道，我也认为，广义上来说，你知道，我听到，我认为Kim和我会同意，我当然也同意Rob Ashton。NDP需要成为一个工薪阶层政党。我的意思是，它的根源也是工薪阶层。但我认为，如今工薪阶层比以前更加**异质化**（heterogeneous）。自20世纪30年代以来，它变化很大。所以它不仅包括产业工人。当然，他们是其联盟中非常重要的一部分。再次，我同意Rob Ashton的观点。但工薪阶层，对吧？也包括许多其他工会工人。包括白领工人。它包括绝大多数不是工会成员、不是政治组织成员的工人。而且，你知道，可能在选举时甚至都不投票。所以NDP也需要能够向这些人发声。而且，早些时候在对话中提到了渠道。人们确实有合理的**不满感**（grievance）。要建设性地谈论这种不满、焦虑和愤怒，只要有可能。我认为，我认为左翼民粹主义是我们实现这一目标所需要的。
Original English >> I think so, I mean, I think, you know, you know, we don't need a literal return. I think, you know, if the NDP were to sort of re-adopt the Regina manifesto or something like that or, or communicate and campaign in the way they did in the 1930s. Clearly that wouldn't make sense. But I think the roots of the NDP very much are, you know, socialist and radical and populist. And I think, I think that's where it, it should remain, grounded. And I think we really just need to do the, the modern version of that. You know, I also think, broadly speaking, you know, I hear I think Kim and I would agree and I certainly agree with Rob Ashton. The NDP needs to be a, a working class party. I mean, its roots are working class as well. I also think though today the working class is a lot more heterogeneous than it it used to be. It's changed a lot since the 1930s. So it includes not only, industrial workers. Though of course, they're hugely important part of its coalition. And again, I agree with what Rob Ashton has argued there. But the working class, right, also includes, lots of other unionized workers. It includes, white collar workers. It includes a huge majority of workers who are not members of unions, are not members of political organizations. And, you know, may not even be voting, come election time. So the NDP needs to be able to speak to those people, as well. And, and channels came up earlier in the conversation. The, legitimate sense of grievance. People have, speak to that, speak to that grievance, speak to that anxiety chat channel anger constructively where, it's possible to do that. And I think, I think, left populism is what we need in order to do that.
**Kim Wright**: 我认为当我们谈论像**宣言**（manifestos）这样的词语时，它往往会让人不想参与到新民主党（New Democrats）的行列中来。这就是我之前提到的那种城市主义、辩论学会的语言。当我们谈论诸如改变语言，从“社会正义”转变为“社区建设”之类的事情时，这能让人更容易地接受，而不是觉得新民主党人在对他们指手画脚。这就是我们党内持续存在的真正分裂，那些想成为辩论学会并用非常宏大的语言说话的人， versus 那些我们听到在**加拿大轮胎**（Canadian Tire）店里说的话。这并不意味着你简化了政策，而是用一种重要的、有意义的方式与人们交谈。一旦我们新民主党人开始谈论里贾纳宣言、跳跃宣言或任何其他宣言，你就已经迷失了方向，也失去了加拿大人。这就是我们所看到的。
Original English >> I think when we talk about when we use phrases like manifestos, it tends to, make people not want to come along for the ride with New Democrats. That is that urbanism, debate, society, language I talked about earlier. And when we need to talk about things like even, even changing the language from, social justice to community building that allows people to come, come away and come with us without feeling like the the New Democrats are talking down to them once again. And that's the real that's the real schism that we continue to have within the party, those who want to be the debate society and talking in very large language versus those the language that we hear when we're at Canadian Tire. And that doesn't mean you dumbed down policies, but you talk to people in a way that matters. And the moment we we start talking as New Democrats of Regina manifestos or leap manifestos or any other manifestos, you have lost the plot and you've lost Canadians. And that's what we've seen.
**Luke Savage**: 好的，抱歉，我能我能说两句非常、非常快的事情吗？我的意思是，公平地说，Kim，当我提到宣言时，我正是为了说明我们不应该这样做。对吧？我们不应该以20世纪30年代的方式说话。这是第一点。第二，我的意思是，你知道，我们现在不是在加拿大轮胎。我们正在**TVO**（安大略省教育电视台）上进行讨论。所以我不认为我们需要一直用那种，你知道，非常直接的方式来沟通。如果我们俩现在一起去拉票，我不会建议，你知道，我不会，我不会，我会以不同的方式说话，这么说吧。
Original English >> Okay, sorry, can I can I can I say, can I say two things very, very quickly? I mean, to be fair, Kim, when I, when I said manifesto, I was precisely bringing it up to say we shouldn't we shouldn't do that. Right? We shouldn't be talking in the way that we did in the 1930s. That's the first thing. Secondly, I mean, you know, we're not a Canadian Tire right now, right? We're having out we're having a discussion on, on TVO. So I don't think we we need to always be communicating in that, you know, very direct way. And if the two of us were canvasing together right now, I would not be suggesting, you know, I would, I would, I would be speaking differently, let's put it that way.
**主持人**: 好的。我需要稍微换个话题。展望未来，下周末，NDP将选出一位新领导人。Kim，对NDP来说，未来成功的标志是什么？
Original English >> All right. I need to shift gears here a little bit. Looking ahead by, the end of next week, of course, the NDP will have chosen a new leader. Kim, what does success look like for the NDP going forward?
**Kim Wright**: 哦，杰出的候选人，选举成功。并能够将像牙科保健计划这样使加拿大人受益的项目带回议会。我对新民主党（New Democrats）的未来感到兴奋。我见过我们在**马尼托巴**（Manitoba）等地的情况，在**卡诺**（Canoe）政府中，人们会说，“哦，嘿，宝贝。你知道，新民主党人有些事情做得不错。让我们把这些推广到全国联邦层面，以及在我们的省级分支机构中。”所以对未来感到非常兴奋。
Original English >> Oh, fantastic candidates, electoral success. And being able to bring those things like the dental care program that benefit Canadians back and back into the house, I'm excited for what the future of the New Democrats holds. I've seen what we've what we look like in places like Manitoba, where in the canoe government, where people are like, oh, hey, baby. You know, Democrats have got some things going on. Let's let's expand that out across the, across the country federally and in, with at our provincial factions. So really excited about the future.
**主持人**: Luke，这是你获得最后发言权。成功的标志是什么？
Original English >> Luke, I get the last word here. What does success look like for the NDP?
**Luke Savage**: 我认为短期内意味着做好非常基础的重建工作。这意味着要进行大量的**筹款**（fundraising）。这意味着要激励大量的党员，并在下次选举中重新获得党派地位。我认为在不久的将来，你希望如此，你知道，这意味着更深层次的**更新**（renewal）。这意味着，你知道，再次成为加拿大一个真正重要的选举力量。并实施我们在这场谈话中一直讨论的那种民粹主义左翼议程。
Original English >> I think in the short term it means doing really basic work of rebuilding. It means, fundraising a lot. It means, energizing, lots and lots of members and winning back party status in the next election, I think in the hopefully not too long term, you know, it means, it means a deeper kind of renewal. It means, you know, becoming, you know, our, or becoming, again, a really significant, electoral force in Canada. And implementing, you know, the kind of, the kind of populist left agenda that we've been speaking about, throughout this conversation.
**主持人**: 好的。我们就此打住。Luke，Kim，非常感谢你们。非常感谢你们的见解。
Original English >> All right. We are going to have to leave it there. Luca, Kim, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your insights.
**Kim Wright**: 谢谢。 **Luke Savage**: 干杯。
Original English >>Thank you. >> Cheers.