--- author: The Knowledge Project Podcast date: '2026-11-10' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRXMqm5bMFk speaker: The Knowledge Project Podcast tags: [] title: '' summary: '' insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: '' area: '' project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: [] products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 特斯拉的规模扩张与速度优势 我想你在特斯拉期间，帮助公司实现了大约 10 倍的规模扩张。
Original English I think you scaled Tesla about 10x while you were there.
>> 是的，按物理规律来说这简直是不可能的。埃隆在一个周一转过头对我说：“这里的营销预算恰好是零，而你需要让公司每 6 到 8 个月规模翻一番。”他深信，各种形式的速度——决策的速度、资金在业务中周转的速度——都会创造出长达十年的优势。如果你要为决策制作一份速查表，上面会写些什么？
Original English >> Yeah, literally the physics were impossible. Elon turns to me on a Monday and says, "Marketing budget here is precisely zero and you need to double the company every 6 to 8 months." He believes that speed of all types, speed of decision-m, speed of cash through the business creates decadel long advantages. If you were to create a cheat sheet for decision-m, what would be on it?
>> 第一步是以终为始。你想要的结果是什么？第二步是，要达成那个结果，必须满足什么条件。然后第三步是，关于与埃隆沟通，你学到了什么不同的地方？在大多数组织里，你带着问题逐级向上找管理层汇报，然后再层层反馈下来，看起来就像心电图一样起伏。埃隆的想法则是，我们要让它看起来像个死人（一条平直的直线）。如果你需要答案，就直接去找掌握那个答案的人。不要通过他们的老板，或者他们老板的老板。他经常说的第二个关键原则是：一旦知道坏消息，就以最快的速度告诉我。因为坏消息只会随着时间推移变得越来越糟糕。
Original English >> First step would be begin with the end. What is the outcome that you want? Step two is what would need to be true for that outcome. Then third step is what did you learn about communicating with Elon that was different? Most organizations you go up the hierarchy with your question and it comes back down and it looks like an EKG. Elon was like let's make it look like a dead patient. If you need an answer, go to the person that has that answer. Don't go through their boss or their boss's boss. Second key that he said all the time was give me bad news as fast as you know about it. Cuz bad news only gets worse with time.
>> 你是怎么知道该离开特斯拉的？
Original English >> How did you know it was time to leave Tesla?
### 初见埃隆与解决 Model X 产线问题 你第一次见埃隆是怎样的情景？
Original English What was your first meeting with Elon?
第一次见面是在 SpaceX 当面进行的。所以对于这样一个科技极客来说，走进一家火箭工厂、参观一番然后和他坐下来聊聊，感觉真的很棒。他有一张巨大无比的钛合金办公桌——或者说当时是有的。我们坐下来长谈，然后在工厂里转悠了几个小时，随即一头扎进了他在制造方面正面临的一个问题。
Original English Like first meeting was uh in person was at SpaceX. So it was for this like tech nerd. It was pretty awesome to walk into a rocket factory, get the tour and then sit down with him. And he's got this big huge titanium desk or did at the time and uh we sat and talked and then walked around the factory for hours and just dove deep right away into a problem he was facing in manufacturing.
>> 你觉得他当时是在考察你什么？
Original English >> What do you think he was assessing you on?
>> 他想了解我是如何处理问题的。因为当我问他成功是什么标准时，他说：“哦，成功的标准就是，如果你和我有同样的输入，我们会得出相同的答案。”我觉得这挺有意思的。我也算以此调侃了他一下，我说：“你这么说是因为你总觉得自己是对的。”他说：“好吧，没问题。但我只是想知道你是如何思考问题的。”所以对他来说，弄清楚这一点的最好方式，就是我们一起去实地看一个真实的问题。
Original English >> He wanted to get a sense of like how I process problems. Um because when I asked him what success looked like, he said, "Oh, what success looks like is if you and I have the same inputs, we come up with the same answer." I thought that's pretty interesting. Um and I could sort of teased him about that. I said, "You because you're always right." And he said, he said, "Okay, fine. But I want to know just how you think through stuff." And so the best way for him to figure that out was let's go walk a real problem.
>> 那个问题是什么，你还记得吗？
Original English >> What was the problem that you do you remember?
他们当时在制造 Model X 的鹰翼门时遇到了很大困难，他们在这个问题上已经研究了好几周，却没有取得任何进展。于是我们在 Model X 生产线上来来回回走了足足快两个小时，
Original English They were having a hard time manufacturing the Model X uh Falcon Wing doors and and they've been working on this problem for weeks and uh not making any progress. And so we walked up and down the Model X line for the better part of two hours
>> 试图找出问题所在？
Original English >> trying to figure out what was
>> 是的。就是我向他提一些问题，比如：“底盘是在哪里制造的？它出来的时候你怎么知道是否对齐了？车门是在哪里安装到底盘上的？”我们立刻发现了他之前没注意到的一件事：那些负责把车门（鹰翼门）用螺栓固定到底盘上的人，必须在看不见的情况下盲操作。他们把手伸到底部背面，不得不把这些螺栓自下而上拧进去，而且他们根本看不见螺栓。我说，天哪，这些东西能笔直拧进去的几率太低了，几率微乎其微。你们有没有想过用治具？这样他们只要按照模板操作就行了。他回答说：“没，我没想过这个。我们试试看。”结果他们连夜就把治具做出来了。这是不是埃隆有别于他人的特质？因为很多人可能会说：“哦，我们下周再弄吧，我们……”
Original English >> Yeah. Me just asking him questions like, "Okay, what where does misalign where does the chassis get built? how do you know it's aligned when it comes out? Where did the doors get hung on the chassis? And we saw something right away uh that he hadn't seen, which was the people that were bolting the doors onto the chassis, the Falcon Wing doors, had to do it blind. They were reaching around the underside and they had to like they had to drill these bolts in upside down and they couldn't see them. I was like, man, the chances of those things going in straight are pretty slow. It's pretty slim. have you ever thought about a jig? So that they could just follow a pattern. And he was like, "No, I haven't thought about that. Let's try that." So they literally built the jig overnight. Is that the thing with Elon that separates him from other people is like a lot of people would be like, "Oh, we'll do that next week. We'll
>> 没错。并不是那样，而是“时间要尽可能快”。因为他深信，各种形式的速度——决策的速度、资金在业务中周转的速度、响应时间的速度——都会创造竞争优势，因为你的竞争对手可能动作更慢。
Original English >> Yeah. No, it's like the timing is as fast as you can." um because he believes that speed of all types, speed of decision-m, speed of cash through the business, speed of response time creates competitive advantage because your c your competitors are probably moving slower.
>> 你怎么做到这一点而不让员工精疲力竭呢？
Original English >> How do you do that without burning people out?
>> 并不是每一秒、每一分钟、每一天你都在处理需要立即响应的事情。很多时候你是在试图理清事情，比如：我们该怎么做这个？我们该如何分解这个问题？我们该如何实现这么快的增长？诸如此类。然后一旦你想明白了，你肯定就会按下加速键。但并不是说你一直在以那种高节奏持续运转。
Original English >> It's not every sec, every minute, every day you're on to something that requires immediate response. Like a lot of times you're trying to figure stuff out like how would we do this? How would we break down this problem? How would we grow this fast? Whatever. And then once you figure it out, you're going to hit the speed button for sure. But uh but it's not like you're constantly running at that rate.
### 加入特斯拉与越权决策 >> 你在那个时候就知道自己想去特斯拉工作了吗？
Original English >> Did you know at that point you wanted to work at Tesla?
>> 这经历了一些说服过程，因为我已经很久没有给别人打过工了。我自己创办过六家公司。所以，第一，我不太确定自己是否准备好替别人工作；而且我也不确定自己能不能帮上忙，因为这家公司规模已经这么大了，而且有着如此宏大的增长目标。因此，这确实需要他的一些说服，也需要我自己去想清楚，这对我来说到底是不是合适的下一步。我的第一个顾虑——在我们前几周的互动中也某种程度上证实了这一点——是我可能会越界，因为我只是不习惯向别人汇报请示。事实证明我确实越界了。在最初的两周里，我越界了，不过好在并没有酿成致命的过错。还算过得去。
Original English >> It took some convincing because I hadn't I hadn't worked for somebody else for a long time. I had had six companies of my own. So, number one, I just wasn't sure I was ready to work for somebody else, and I wasn't sure that I was going to be helpful because the company was so big already and had such big growth goals. So, it really took some convincing on his part and really my part to figure out if that was if that was the right next step for me. My first concern, which sort of proved out in our first few weeks of interaction, was that I would overstep my bounds because I just wasn't used to having check-in with somebody. And turned out that I did. In my first two weeks, I overstepped oversteppet my pounds and it turned out not to be a fatal footfall. Uh, it was okay.
>> 发生了什么事？
Original English >> What happened?
>> 我当时正试图弄清楚自己是否能帮上忙。于是我就问他：“你目前最大的难题是什么？”他说：“需求。”我就问：“那么，这季度你向华尔街承诺交付多少辆车？”数字大概是 12,000 辆左右。而当时那个季度已经过去了一个半月。我说：“那你现在完成了多少？”他说：“我们才卖出去了 3,000 辆。”我当时就想：“哦，这可是个大问题。”我说：“这样，让我来花大概一周时间研究这个问题，然后再向你汇报好吗？”随后我就展开了一场闪电行动。我跑去了八家不同的门店。
Original English >> I was trying to figure out if I could be helpful. And um, so I asked him like, "What's your biggest problem right now?" And he said, "Demand." And so I said, "Well, how many cars have you promised the street for this quarter?" And the number was something like 12,000. And we were a month and a half into the quarter at this point. And I said, "Well, how far in are you?" and he said, "We've only sold 3,000." And I was like, "Oh, that's a big problem." I said, "Okay, why don't I work on that problem for like a week and I'll come back?" And then I went out on a blitzkrieg. I went to eight different stores,
我去试驾了，因为我听说试驾是促成购买特斯拉的关键环节。就像你踩下油门那一刻，感觉就像火箭发射一样，终生难忘，然后你就会买下这辆车。所以我去了八家门店进行试驾，用了八个不同的邮箱地址，这样他们就不会认出我是谁。奇怪的事情发生了：我竟然没有接到任何回访电话。
Original English took a test drive cuz I had heard that the test drive was the big thing in buying a Tesla. Like you hit the accelerator, it's like a rocket ship. You never forget it and you buy the car. So, I went to eight stores, did test drives, I used eight different email addresses so they wouldn't know who I was. And funny thing happened, I didn't get a call back.
大约一周后，依然没有任何人给我回电话。于是我打电话给销售运营主管，我说：“我是不是因为什么原因被系统拉黑了？怎么会有人在试驾之后不给我回电话呢？因为那个时候本该是你们提出促成销售的最佳时机啊。”他在系统里查了查，说：“你完全没有被拉黑。你用了一堆不同的邮箱地址，所以基本上我们甚至都追踪不到你。”我说：“那你能帮我查一下，过去 30 天里有多少试驾过的人没有收到回访电话吗？”
Original English And after like a week, I hadn't been called back. So, I called the head of sales ops. I said, "Am I blacklisted in the system for some reason? Like, why would nobody call me back after a test drive? Cuz that is supposed to be when you're asking me for the sale." And he looked in the system. He said, "You're not blacklisted at all. you used a bunch of different email addresses so that we couldn't even track you basically. I said, "Well, can you look up for me how many people have done a test drive in the last 30 days who haven't been called back?"
他说：“行，给我一个小时。”随后他回电话告诉我，大约有 10,000 人。
Original English And he's like, "Yeah, give me an hour." So, he called me back uh and said like 10,000.
我心想：“天哪，你们完全可以达成这季度的目标。你们只需要打电话给这些人，请求他们下单就行了。
Original English And I'm like, "Oh my god, like you can make your number for the quarter. You just have to call people back and ask for the order.
大家为什么不这么做呢？”他说：“这个嘛，大家做试驾是有激励的，但我们没有提成激励，这里没有销售佣金，所以他们没有动力去促成交易。”我说：“是啊，销售中最难的事情就是促成交易。既然你们没有激励大家这么做，那我能理解这种行为了。那么我们这样做行不行：你能切断所有人的新增试驾线索吗，直到他们把过去 30 天内所有之前的试驾客户都回访一遍为止？”他说：“我做不到。”我说：“好的，需要多长时间？”他说：“在全球范围内吗？我现在就可以操作。全球系统生效需要几个小时，但我现在就能做。”第二天他给我打电话说：“你简直不敢相信，订单正从四面八方源源不断地涌进来。”我说：“是啊，因为你们的销售人员终于开始开口要订单了。事情就是这么运转的。”然后我突然反应过来：“糟糕，我甚至都还没正式替埃隆工作呢。”而我刚刚居然在他的公司里做了一个决定，直接切断了所有新的销售线索。于是我给埃隆打电话说：“嘿，听着，我真的很抱歉。我已经很久没给别人打工了。我之前就担心会发生这种情况，而我刚刚确实越界了。”我把所做的事情告诉了他。我说：“你们销售中的问题在于员工没有开口要求客户下单。”因此我所做的就是切断了所有新的销售线索，直到他们开口要订单为止。事实证明销售额正纷纷涌入。我觉得你们能完成这个季度的目标了。我必须向你道歉
Original English Why aren't people doing that?" And he said, "Well, people are incented to do test drives, but we have no incent. We have no commissions here, so they're not incented to make the sale." I said, "Yeah, the hardest thing in sales is asking for the sale. So, you're not incenting people to do that. I understand the behavior. So, why don't we do this? Can you shut off anybody's new test drive leads until they call all their prior test drives back for the last 30 days?" He's like, "I can't." I said, "Okay, how long will it take?" He's like, "Worldwide? Like, I can do it like right now. It'll take several hours uh to proliferate around the world, but I can do it right now. He called me the next day and he's like, "You wouldn't believe it. The orders are coming in left and right. It's" and I said, "Yeah, cuz you just your people are asking for the sale. This is how this works." And then I went, "Oh gosh, I don't work for Elon yet." And I just made a decision in his company. Like I shut off all new leads. So I called Elon and I said, "Hey, look, I'm really sorry. I haven't worked for somebody for a long time. And I was afraid of this and I just stepped across the line. And I told him what I did. I said, "Your problem in sales uh is that people aren't asking for the order." And so what I did was I shut off all new leads until they asked for the order. And it turns out the sales are coming in. I think you're going to make a quarter. I got to apologize to you
不过，我还不是你的员工。这不是我的公司，是你的。我本应该提前请示，但我没有。纯粹是习惯使然，我没打招呼，我很抱歉。”接着电话那头陷入了长时间的沉默。然后他终于开口了，他说：“那个决定做得很好。你在这里会适应得非常好的。”
Original English though. I don't work for you yet. This isn't my company. It's yours. I should have checked in and I didn't. Just out of habit, I didn't check in and I'm sorry. And there was this long silence on the other end of the phone. And then he finally came on and he said, "That was a great decision. You're going to fit in here just fine."
>> 所以他一点也不介意你越权？
Original English >> So he didn't mind you overstepping at all.
>> 那种情况下完全不介意，因为那是为了决策速度。我后来了解到这才是他追求的。他要的不是层级体系或层层请示。他追求的是：只要你遵循第一性原理，就尽量做到最快。
Original English >> Not in that case at all cuz it was speed of decision. Uh which I got to know was what he was after. He wasn't after a hierarchy or checking in. He was after as long as you're following first principles, just go as fast as you can.
>> 你还记得在停顿的那段时间里，你心里在想什么吗？
Original English >> Do you remember what was going through your mind during that pause?
>> 记得。我心想，首先我甚至不知道他还在不在电话线上，因为感觉过了好久。大概其实不到一分钟，当时我正准备开口问他“你还在吗”，他突然接话了。后来我明白了，他就是那样思考的。他会切断周围所有其他感官输入，一门心思思考，他当时就是在想事情，但我在电话另一端根本不知道。
Original English >> Yeah. I thought first of all I didn't even know if he was on the phone still because uh it was it seemed like forever. It was probably less than a minute and literally I was asked ready to ask him were you still there when he uh when he jumped in. I got to know that that's how he processes. He kind of shuts down all other sensory stuff going on and just thinks that's what he was doing but I didn't know that on the other end of the phone.
>> 那样换作我也会有点吓到。
Original English >> That would kind of freak me out.
>> 当时也确实把我吓了一跳。是的。
Original English >> It freaked me out a little bit too. Yeah.
### 特斯拉的文化与沟通风格 >> 你在那里是如何建立获胜文化的？ 我认为所有的文化都源自创始人，而当时这种文化已经建立起来了，那就是第一性原理文化。那是一种快速沟通的文化。因此在大多数组织里，你要带着问题或建议逐级往上报，然后再逐级传达下来，公司的沟通模式看起来就像心电图。马斯克就主张：让它看起来像个心电图归零的死人。横向穿透整个组织。如果你需要答案，直接去找掌握该答案的人。不要通过他们的老板或者老板的老板，直接去找他们，因为这有助于提高决策速度。所以那种文化当时已经确立了。 而业务所需要的是一整套脚手架。于是我着手组建团队并构建方法，从而让我们拥有一种机制，基本上能让公司每6到8个月规模翻倍，就像超级飞速增长那样。在这样做的过程中，我们可以说建立了一种文化。我们在特斯拉既有文化的基础上进一步构建。但我们非常希望建立一个贤能制度，让做出贡献的人获得重大的新任务，我们称之为火线提拔。比如如果你在战场上表现出色，我们完全可以当场拉住你说：“嘿，你看，让你来负责全球这块业务怎么样？”大家会说：“我不知道怎么做。”我们就会说：“反正以前也没人做过。很好，欢迎加入。”我们会赋予他们重大的职责、重大的职权范围、重大的任务，而且通常情况下，他们都能圆满完成，并成为出色的领导者。
Original English >> How did you go about building a winning culture there? I think all culture comes from founders and the culture was was built and the culture was a first principles culture. It was a culture of rapid communication. So you didn't have to most organizations you go up the hierarchy with your question or your suggestion and it comes back down and it looks like an EKG the communication pattern in a company. Elon was like let's make it look like a dead patient. Go straight across the organization. If you need an answer go to the person that has that answer. don't go through their boss or their boss's boss, go directly to them because that's going to help with speed of decision-m so that kind of culture was already set. What the business needed was a bunch of scaffolding. So I went about building a team and then building approach so that we could have a mechanism to essentially double the company every 6 to 8 months like super rapid growth. And in so doing, we kind of built a culture. We built on the culture that Tesla already had. But we we really wanted to create a meritocracy where people that were contributing got big new assignments and we called them battlefield promotions. Like if you were if you were performing on the battlefield, we could literally grab you and say, "Hey, look, how would you like to run this worldwide?" And uh people would say, "I don't know how to do that." We'd say, "Well, nobody's ever done it before." So good. Welcome to the club. And we'd give them huge responsibilities, big remats, big assignments, and more often than not, they would come through and become fantastic leaders.
>> 用这种方式来做真是不可思议。
Original English >> What an incredible way to do that.
>> 是的。是的。那超级有趣，现在依然如此，因为我今天仍和其中的一些人一起共事。
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah. It was super fun and still is cuz I still work with a number of those people today.
>> 在与马斯克沟通方面，你学到了什么不一样的东西？
Original English >> What did you learn about communicating with Elon that was different?
>> 必须简明扼要。 我们在沟通上搞了点有趣的尝试，大家互相发起了挑战。我不知道是谁最先提出来的。我觉得是他的主意。他说：“你觉得我们能不能试着用三句话的邮件来管理组织？” 第一句话是：这是我遇到的问题。第二句话是：这是我认为的解决方案。第三句话是：这是我的下一步行动，如果我需要资源或许可，就在这句里提出来。于是我们开始对此进行尝试，这确实成了与他沟通的关键，因为他喜欢那种直截了当、直奔主题的方式：你有没有深入思考过这个问题？你有没有真正想过解决方案？你有没有考虑过下一步行动？这可以说是与他沟通的一大关键。 他一直强调的第二个关键是：不要压着坏消息，一知道坏消息就尽快向我汇报。他对所有人都是这么说的。因为坏消息只会随着时间拖延而变得更糟。所以尽快向我汇报坏消息。而得罪他的一种方式就是捂着坏消息不说。我一路上见多了这种情况。所以这两点就是沟通的关键：简明扼要，以及快速同步坏消息。
Original English >> It has to be concise. And um and so we had this kind of fun we had fun with our communication in the sense that we gave each other a challenge. I don't know who came up with it. And uh I think it was his idea. He said, "Do you think we could we could try to run the organization on three sentence emails?" First sentence is here's my problem. Second sentence sentence is here's what I think the solution is. third sentence is here's my next step and if I need resources or permission ask in that sentence and so we we started to experiment with this and it was really the key to to communicating with him because he likes that sort of concise get to the point what's the have you super thought about the problem have you really thought about the solution and you thought about the next steps and that was kind of key to communicating with him the second key that he said all the time was don't sit on bad news give me bad news as fast as you know about it. And he said this to everybody. Um because bad news only gets worse with time. So like give me bad news fast. And the way that you could get on his on his bad side was saving bad news. And I watched that over time. Uh and so those were the two keys to communication like be concise and be rapid with bad news.
>> 你们当时是如何处理分歧的？
Original English >> How did you guys handle disagreements?
>> 我们当面把话聊透。是雪莉·桑德伯格介绍我们认识的，所以我们俩都向雪莉请教过：你和马克是如何维护你们之间的关系的？她说：“好的，我们雷打不动地每周碰面一次，至少一小时。开场先说：这些是你做过让我生气、烦躁、失望的事情等等。”所以先把那些东西梳理清楚，先把这类事情扫清，然后再谈什么商业策略之类的话题。 所以我们差不多就照着做。而且他也不避讳。比如他如果对某件事感到恼火，立刻电话就打过来了：“到底怎么回事？”我也学会了直言不讳。这对我很有帮助，因为在去特斯拉之前我是个回避冲突的人，而现在我绝对不再回避冲突了。
Original English >> We talked through them. Cheryl Samberg introduced us and so both of us quiz Cheryl on how do you and Mark manage your relationship and she said, "Okay, we meet once a week religiously for at least an hour. We open with here's here are here are things you've done that have pissed me off, frustrated me, uh disappointed me, whatever." So you clear all the good, you clear that stuff first and then you get to, oh, let's talk about the business strategy, whatever. So we sort of followed that and he's not shy. Like if he's upset about something, it's like right away the phone's lighting up. What the hell's going on? And I learned to be not shy, too. Uh, and it helped because I was a conflict avoider before Tesla and I'm definitely not a conflict avoider now.
>> 等等，关于这点展开讲讲。
Original English >> Wait, go deeper on that.
>> 我以前更像是个老好人。喜欢让团队既高效又开心，但我会拖延正面冲突，尤其是当我为某件事不悦时。而他不会。这教会我那么做是完全没问题的，因为实际上很多商业之外的组织都是这样运作的。就像在管弦乐团里，如果你弹错一个音符，指挥会立刻让你知道。如果你在球场上漏了一次防守，教练会立刻指出来。我开始领会到这是一种非常有效且有用的方式，能让团队快速学习。大家讨论错误正如讨论胜利一样频繁。
Original English >> I was more of a pleaser. loved to have teams that were productive and happy, but uh but I would wait on confrontation, especially if I was upset about something. And um and he didn't. And it taught me that was aokay because actually it's kind of the way a lot of organizations work outside of business. It's the way you know if you miss a note in an orchestra, the conductor is letting you know right away. Uh if you miss a play on the field, your coach is letting you know right away. And I started to appreciate that that was a very effective and helpful way to uh to keep a team learning rapidly. And you're talking about mistakes as much as you're talking about victories.
>> 很多不回避冲突的人，在向他人表达时往往不一定能用让人容易接受的方式。
Original English >> A lot of people who who don't avoid the conflict don't necessarily say that in the most receptive way to other people.
>> 对。确实如此。
Original English >> Right. Exactly.
>> 作为曾经回避冲突但现在努力做到更直接的人，你在向大家传达这类信息方面学到了什么？ 曾有一位导师对我说——这说法有点粗俗，但他当时说：“如果你要扇别人一巴掌，他们同时也需要一个吻。”所以，我学会了这样说：“嘿，听着，我很喜欢和你一起工作。我认为你能力非常强，但你刚才在这件事上搞砸了，或者你没能解决这个问题，或者你没能带好你的团队，我想在这方面帮你，但我们必须直面处理这个问题。” 如果你只丢下一句：“嘿，你搞砸了，我对你太失望了，你饭碗可能不保了。”我觉得确实就太苛刻了，这正印证了你的观点，那会让对方不知所措。我宁愿说：“嘿，听着，我尊重你，我想帮你摆脱这种局面，但你必须——我们必须一起走出眼下的困境。”
Original English >> What have you learned about sort of communicating those messages to people as somebody who used to avoid it but now is trying to be more direct? I had a mentor who said, "If you're gonna, this is a kind of a coarse way of saying it, but he said, 'If you're going to slap somebody, they need a kiss, too." And so, I just learned to say, "Hey, look, I love working with you. I think you're super capable, but you you just failed in this moment or you're failing to solve this problem or you're failing to lead your team and I want to help you with that, but we have to address this." It is super harsh. I think to your point when you just leave it as, "Hey, you're failing and I'm so disappointed in you and you may not have your job." That's leaving somebody flapping. I'd rather say, "Hey, look, I respect you and I want to work I want to work you out of this, but you got to we got to get out of this uh whatever this tough tough spot is."
>> 那你会对那个人指出具体的事情吗？
Original English >> And would would you be specific with that person? Oh,
>> 百分之百会。是的，因为我认为无论是在正面还是负面，明确清晰都非常重要。如果你给别人提反馈，你必须讲得超级清楚：这是我感到满意的地方，你这件事做得非常棒，我都在眼里；或者你这件事做得非常不好，我都在眼里。换作你会怎么做？或者让我给你提些建议，看看我认为你该如何换种方式来做。 我们之前聊过特斯拉的销售人员不积极跟进，因为他们没有动力去跟进。
Original English >> 100%. Yeah, because clarity really matters, I think, both on the positive side and on the negative side. If you're giving somebody feedback, you got to be super clear about here's what I'm pleased about. You did this super well. I watched you. Uh or you did this super not well. I watched you. How would you do this differently? Or let me give you some input how I think you probably should do it differently. We talked earlier about sort of how the sales people at Tesla weren't following up because they had no incentive to follow up.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 我很好奇，关于设置正确的激励机制，你学到了哪些五年前或十年前不知道的东西？
Original English >> I'm curious what you've learned about getting incentives right that you didn't know five years ago or 10 years ago.
>> 是的，我认为我从查理·芒格那里学到了很多。查理有句名言：如果你想知道一个系统是如何运作的，那就看激励机制。在那种情况下，确实缺乏切实的激励。而一旦你把激励建立起来——激励不一定非要是金钱上的，也可以是文化上的。因此在当时那种情况下，马斯克非常坚决地主张我们不要提成，因为他希望门店尽可能与传统汽车经销商相反——
Original English >> Yeah, I think I learned a lot from reading Charlie Mer uh and Charlie's this wisdom from Charlie that if you want to know how a system works, follow the incentives and and uh in that case there was a real incentive that was lacking and once you put that incentive in place now the incentive doesn't have to be monetary it can also be cultural and so Elon felt really strongly in that situation that we not have commissions because he wanted stores to be as opposite of car dealers as possible
>> 大家都知道，当你走进一家汽车经销商门店时，每个人都是拿提成的——
Original English >> and you know when you go into a car dealership everybody's on commission and
作为顾客你能感觉到那点，而他不希望有那种感觉。所以接下来的挑战就是：好吧，作为团队，我作为领导者，必须想清楚在没有金钱奖励的情况下，我们要怎样才能获得那种行为。后来我们偶然发现了这个办法：我们在每家门店都放了一个排行榜，排行榜上写的是当月的销售数量。我们几乎是随意地在图表中间画了一条线，人们就会为了站到那条线以上而付出巨大努力，尽管没有人解释过那条线是干什么用的。
Original English you feel that as the customer he did not want that feeling so then I the challenge was okay we as a team I as a leader have to figure out how are we going to get that behavior without a monetary reward and we stumbled across this thing we put a leaderboard up on every store and the leaderboard was number of sales that month and we drew a line almost arbitrarily in the middle of that chart and people would do a lot to get above that line even though nobody explained what the line was for.
>> 确实。它只是一条，嗯，它被称作“绩效门槛”或诸如此类的东西。但这不涉及金钱，没有佣金。大家只是觉得：“噢，我明白了。这里的通货是我不仅要做试驾，我还得把车卖出去。所以这意味着我得开口要订单。如果我开口要订单，我就会在那份榜单上往上移，我就会在线之上，我就处于安全区——无论那意味着什么。”嗯，所以它不一定非得是金钱，但你肯定需要理解激励机制。在那件事上，我们创造了一种非金钱的激励。埃隆是如何看待风险的？
Original English >> Exactly. It was just a well it was called, you know, the performance threshold or something like that. But there was no money involved. There was no commission. It was just, oh, I get it. The currency here is I need to not only give test drives, I need to sell cars. So that means I need to ask for the order. If I ask for the order, I move up that list. I'm above the line. I'm in the safety zone, whatever that meant. Um, and so it doesn't always need to be monetary, but you need to understand the incentives for sure. In that case, we created a non-monetary incentive. How did Elon think about risk?
### 风险评估与非对称下注 他认为——我也同意这一点——他认为商业中最高的技能是资本配置。因为作为资本配置者，你必须评估风险，正确地评估它。这样你做出的押注最终会随着时间积累你的资本。
Original English He thought, and I agree with this, he thought that the highest skill in business is allocating capital because as a capital allocator, you have to assess risk, assess it correctly. So, you're making a bet that ends up building your capital over time.
于是我开始把它看作扑克。在扑克的每一手牌里，你其实都可以算一下数学账，搞清楚自己在这一手牌中有更大的上行空间概率还是下行风险概率。那就会告诉你该怎样下注。所以，我开始寻找上行不对称性或者下行不对称性。
Original English And and so I started to think about that like poker. Um, oddly in every hand of poker, you can sort of run the math and understand whether you've got a bigger chance at upside or downside in that hand. And that then tells you how to bet. So, I started to look for asymmetry on the upside or asymmetry on the downside.
如果有下行不对称性，我们就不下那个注，除非我们能够解决下行风险并消除它。如果有上行不对称性，那当然，我们就会下那个注。这帮助给了人们一个框架、一个构想，让他们随后能够轻松处理决策，因为他们知道我的第一个问题肯定会是：向我解释这里是否存在上行或下行的不对称性，并指给我看它在哪里。如果是上行不对称，那就去做，让我们配置资本，让我们去跑。但如果我们不确定，那我们就必须问这样的问题：我们要如何创造上行不对称，以便我们能开出这张支票、承担这个风险等等。
Original English If there's asymmetry on the downside, we're not making that bet unless we can address the downside and get rid of it. And if there's asymmetry the upside, of course, we're making that bet. And that helped give people a framework, a construct that they could then easily process decisions because they knew my first question was going to be explain to me is there asymmetry to the upside or downside here and show me where it is. And if it's asymmetry to the upside, let's go um and let's allocate capital and let's uh let's run. But if we're unsure, then we have to ask the questions like how would we create asymmetry to the upside so we could write this check, take this risk, etc.
当埃隆和我逐渐熟悉彼此时，我的顾虑之一就是，我说：“我不是大公司出身的人，我没有那种经历。你为什么不聘请一个大公司的人来管理这家公司？”他说，因为他们不知道如何评估风险，而创业者知道。这是你作为创业者随着时间培养出的一项技能。“我想要一位创业者同伴，因为很有可能我们评估风险的方式会非常相似，然后我们配置资本的方式也会非常相似。”你谈到这一点很有意思，因为我的意思是，包括我自己在内的数百万人每天开启 Autopilot 时，都把性命交到了埃隆手里。
Original English And when Elon and I were getting to know each other, one of my hesitations was I I said, 'I'm not a big company guy. I haven't had that experience. Why don't you hire a big company person to come in and run this company? And he said, because they don't know how to assess risk. Entrepreneurs do. It's a skill you build over time as an entrepreneur. And I want a fellow entrepreneur because chances are we're going to assess risk really in a similar way. And then we're going to allocate capital in a really similar way. It's interesting you talk about that because I mean millions of people including myself put their hands in Elon every day when we turn on autopilot.
>> 对，没错。
Original English >> Right. Exactly.
>> 在我们的车里，而且更新来得很快。我想象一个更具大企业风格的 CEO——
Original English >> In our car and the updates come fast and I'm like I could imagine a a more corpo type CEO
>> 可能会说：“天哪，我们一年只能发布两次。”有点像苹果的节奏，完全是——
Original English >> being like, man, we can only release two a year. like kind of like the Apple cadence, you know, of totally
>> “我们必须测试这个、测试那个，确保每个版本、每次迭代、每种可能的组合都没问题。”而他更像是：“不，我们测试过了，挺好的，上吧。”
Original English >> we have to test this and test it and like make sure that every version and every iteration, every possible combination, whereas he's more like, nah, we tested it, it's good, let's go.
### 仿真驱动与快速迭代 >> 是的。嗯，在发布到现实世界之前，它会经过无数次仿真运行。所以他们完全可以说：“嘿，Shane，你在方向盘上施加了一点压力退出了 Autopilot，因为你觉得不舒服。所以我们要从你的车里调取那些图像，尝试找出你解除接管的原因，并把它放到模拟器里一遍又一遍地运行。然后我们尝试采取纠正措施，针对那个纠正措施对系统进行训练。只要那个纠正措施每次在仿真中都能完美运行，是的，我们就会把它放进下一个构建版本，并在明天发布。”但当你想到发布那些会立刻影响成千上万人的产品——
Original English >> Yeah. Well, that gets run through a gazillion simulations before it gets released into the real world. So, they can literally say, "Hey, Shane, you stopped autopilot uh just with some pressure on the steering wheel cuz you were uncomfortable. So, we're going to take those images from your car and we're going to try to figure out why you disengaged and we're going to run that through a simulator over and over again. And we're going to try to put then a corrective action in place, train the system on that corrective action. And as long as that corrective action is running through the simulation perfectly every time, yeah, we're going to put that in the next build and release it tomorrow. But when you think about products that get released that instantly affect tens of thousands of thousands of people
>> 的生命，对吧？
Original English >> of lives, right?
>> 确实。
Original English >> Exactly.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 而他的整套理念就是这种追求速度的心态：发布出去，启动学习循环，启动反馈循环，确保纠正措施奏效，然后不断微调、微调、微调。如果你等上六个月才发布一次，你就会阻断反馈循环。那么，当你今天已经有 99% 的把握，并且能够获得六个月的学习时，你为什么要放弃六个月的学习去追求稳妥呢？理念就是，我们会变得更好、快得多。
Original English >> And his whole that's just his speed mentality like get it out, start the learning loop, start the feedback loop, make sure the corrective action has worked and keep tweaking, tweaking, tweaking. And if you wait six months to do a release or uh you're you're going to stop the feedback loop. So, why would you give up six months of learning to be sure when you're 99% certain today and you can get six months of learning? Like, we're just going to get so much better so much faster is the idea.
>> 很多人都在等待完美。我猜那差不多就是我们所讨论的核心所在。
Original English >> A lot of people wait for perfection. I guess that's sort of like the core of what we're talking about.
>> 是的，没错。那个理念就是不要等待完——绝对不要做愚蠢的押注。比如，如果你对那个更新能否起效只有 10% 的确定性，当然不要发布它，因为那可能会搞坏车辆，而且会毁掉你的声誉。所以不要做愚蠢的事情。但如果你感到 99% 满意它能工作，在那种情况下比如在仿真中是好的，就发布它。启动反馈循环。确保它交到了人们手中。别等待。这种发布的快速性，是那里的软件和自动驾驶团队内部一种刻意的自律。可能和你一样，我每周也会收到两到三次更新，带着他们添加、修复的不同东西等等。作为顾客，这让你感觉很棒，因为你觉得这些人反应太迅速了；而当你阅读发布说明时，你会看到：哇，很多内容都很有用，都是我一直希望在这辆车上发生的事情。所以，作为消费者这让你感觉非常好，因为一款在你拥有期间通常会因静态而贬值的产品，实际上却在你拥有它的过程中变得越来越好。这与汽车制造商看待其产品的方式截然不同。
Original English >> Yeah, exactly. And that idea is don't wait for per like definitely don't make bets that are stupid. Like if you have a 10% certainty that that update's going to work, don't release it, of course, because it's going to could potentially break the cars and it's going to kill your reputation. So don't do things that are foolish. But if you're like 99% comfortable this is working and in that case like in simulation, release it. Start the feedback loop. Make sure that it's getting in the hands of people. Uh and don't wait. And that rapidity of release is a is a purposeful discipline within this uh within the software and autonomy teams there like probably like you I get two or three updates a week uh with different stuff that they're adding fixing etc. Makes you feel great as a customer because you're like these people are so responsive and when you read the release notes you see wow like a lot of this stuff is useful um and stuff that I have wanted on to happen on this car. So, it makes you feel great as a consumer that a product that is typically depreciating while you own it because it's static is actually getting better while you own it. Uh, and that is very different than the way car makers think about their product.
>> 我以前从未听过这种说法。这很有道理。
Original English >> I had never heard it phrased that way before. That makes a lot of sense.
>> 是的。就像我们的整套逻辑是：我们能否增加能让汽车升值而不是让汽车贬值的功能？偶尔我们确实会发现一些东西，比如你可以让车跑出更长里程，让车拥有更快速度，让车的磨损更少，诸如此类的各种东西，你可以随着时间推移放到发布版本中，从而让它升值而不是贬值，这与整个行业的思维方式完全相反。
Original English >> Yeah. Like our whole deal was like, could we add features that would appreciate the car versus depreciate the car? And every once in a while, we found things that would like you could get more range out of the car, more speed out of the car, uh less uh wear and tear out of the car, like all kinds of stuff that you could you could put into a release over time that would cause it to appreciate, not depreciate, which is completely counter to the way the industry thinks.
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让我向您介绍过去 5 年里我使用过的最好的新产品。那就是 Matic 吸尘器。这东西既能吸尘，又能拖地。Matic 无所不能。其他机器人会撞上东西，但 Matic 能看见物体。它实际上避开了那些问题。而且 Matic 会在我的地毯表面和硬木地板之间自动调整。它安排起计划任务来也极其容易。我让它每晚在我睡觉时运行，每天早上我醒来都能看到干净的地板。弄脏弄乱总会发生，而一旦发生，Matic 就会付诸行动。今天就访问 maticrobots.com，让 Matic 为您工作。
Original English Let me tell you about the best new product that I've used in the past 5 years. It's the Madic vacuum. This thing vacuums, it mops. Madic does everything. Other robots bump into things, but the Madic sees things. It actually avoids the problems. And the Madic automatically adjusts between my carpeted surfaces and my hardwood floors. It's also super easy to schedule. I have it run every night while I'm in bed, and every morning I wake up to clean floors. Messes happen, and when they do, Madak rolls into action. Go to maddakroot.com today and put Madic to work for you.
### 良好决策的原则 如果你要制作一份包含良好决策原则的速查表，那份速查表上会有什么？
Original English If you were to create sort of a cheat sheet with the principles of good decision making on it, what would be on that cheat sheet?
>> 我认为第一步会是：以终为始，也就是你想要的结果是什么。决策常常会搞砸
Original English >> I think first step would be I' begin with the end which is what is the outcome that you want. Decision- making gets flubbed
### 决策框架与成功定义 搞砸，是因为大家不清楚自己到底要解决什么问题，或者想达成什么目标。所以我发现，你必须非常清楚：好，这就是我们想要实现的最终状态。大家都认同吗？
Original English up because people aren't clear on what problem they're trying to solve or what they're trying to solve for. So I found that you have to be super clear on okay here's the end state that we want to achieve. Does everybody agree with that?
好，如果是这样，现在我们就可以围绕这个决策倒推了。来这里的路上，我和我的一位合伙人聊过。我们当时在讨论我们旗下的一家公司收到的一个收购要约。
Original English Okay, if that's the case, now we can back up on this decision. So, on the way in here, we I was talking with one of my partners. We were talking about an offer we've gotten for one of our companies.
我们说，好，在这里成功意味着什么？嗯，它是一个回报门槛。它是一个估值，也是这家业务的一个结果。
Original English And we said, okay, what does success look like here? Well, it's a it's a return hurdle. It's a valuation and it's an outcome for this business.
于是我们说：“好，考虑到这一点，现在我们就能做出非常明确的决定了，因为这个要约没有达到回报门槛，而且这家公司可能也不是这项业务合适的发展归宿。”所以，非常简单。别浪费我们的时间了。呃，这种清晰度有助于提升速度，而且我认为也有助于做出高质量的决策。
Original English And we said, "Okay, with that in mind, now we can have super clear decisions because this offer doesn't meet a return hurdle and this company's probably not the right place for this business to land." So, super easy. Let's not waste our time. Um, and that clarity helps with speed and I think quality decision.
所以，第一步是你设计并定义成功是什么样的。然后你从那里倒推，说：“好，第二步是，要达成那个结果，需要满足哪些条件？”
Original English So, first step is you design and define what success looks like. Then you work back from there and say, "Okay, step two is what would need to be true? for that outcome.
需要创造出什么？我们的产品、我们的流程，或者不管什么，需要有什么不同？然后第三步是，
Original English What would need to be created? What would need to be different about our product, our process, whatever. And then third step is
促成这些条件成立需要投入多少成本？
Original English what's the investment that it's going to take to make those things true.
当你把这项投入量化之后——有时候这有点难，有时候你是在粗略估算，有时候你可以更精确一些——但接着你就能回答第四个问题了，那就是我们做这件事的影响是什么？比如如果我们达成了这个最终目标，假设我们开发了一款新产品，那款产品将带来 1 亿美元的收入，
Original English And when you quantify the investment, which is kind of hard sometimes, sometimes you're taking a swag, sometimes you can be more precise, but then you can answer the fourth question, which is what's the impact on us doing this? Like if we achieve this end goal and let's say we develop a new product and that product is going to have $100 million in revenue
但制造这款产品要花掉我们 2 亿美元。现在我们就真的得认真想想，我们能从中获得回报吗？相较于投入的精力，它能带来相应的影响吗？所以决策过程的最后一步，就是真正做出那个二乘二的矩阵。做这件事的影响与投入的精力相比是怎样的？
Original English but it costs us $200 million to build the product. Now we really have to be thoughtful about are we going to get the return on this? Does it have the impact uh versus the effort? And so the last step of the decision process is literally creating that 2 by 2. What is the impact versus the effort of doing this?
然后它与我们手头必须处理的其他事项相比又是怎样的？因为我们可能有些影响极高、精力投入极低的事，那是我们必须直接去做的。呃，我们又没有无尽的精力可以消耗。所以，我们现在必须选择要把我们的资本和时间配置到哪里。对我来说，最后那张精力与影响图表能帮我弄清楚我们把资本和时间配置到哪里。
Original English And then how does that stack up against the other stuff we have on our plate? because we may have super high impact, super low effort stuff that we had to just do. Uh, and we don't have endless amounts of calories to burn. So, we now have to choose where we're going to allocate our capital and time. And that last effort versus impact chart for me helps me figure out where we allocate uh where we allocate our capital and our time.
>> 你怎么看机会成本？
Original English >> How do you think about opportunity cost?
>> 机会成本就包含在最后那一步里，因为你不可能什么都做。所以，呃，所以你必须做出选择，好，如果我们的时间有限，或者资本有限，我们就必须带着这种资源有限的心态去配置，所以有些事情是进不了清单的，那就是机会成本。而在埃隆的世界里，他的想法是，那我们就筹集更多资本，这样我们就不受那个限制了，因为他是一位极其高产的募资者，所以作为一名领导者，他能以一种非常有趣的方式打破那张图表的限制，因为他在提供更多资本，让你能做更多事情，所以那种现实扭曲力场还挺好玩的。呃，如果作为领导者，你能增加进入业务的资本，那么你实际上就能雇佣更多的人，并增加你可以用来配置的时间。这样你就能做成更多事情，但机会成本始终存在，因为资源绝不可能是无限的。所以你必须搞清楚哪些事情是你不打算去做的。谢丽尔·桑德伯格曾教导我，你的“否定清单”应该比你的“肯定清单”大得多。而且对于什么该放进那张否定清单，你应该果断坚决。这样当你最终落到影响与精力的评估、决定对哪些事情说“好”时，就不会缺乏清晰度了。你必须对自己拒绝的事情非常明确。而那张否定清单就是你的机会成本。
Original English >> Opportunity cost is within that last step because you can't do everything. So uh so you've got to choose okay which if we have a finite set of time or a finite set of capital like we have to allocate with that finite mentality so some things aren't going to make the list and that's opportunity cost and and so in Elon's world he was like well let's raise more capital so that we don't have that constraint because he's a prolific capital raiser so he can unconstrain that chart in a really interesting way as a leader because he's providing more capital to allow you to do more and so that reality distortion field is kind of fun. Uh if as a leader if you can increase the capital into the business then you can actually hire more people and increase the time that you have to allocate too. So you can get more stuff done but there's always an opportunity cost because there's never infinite resource. So you got to figure out the stuff you're not going to do. And Cheryl Sandberg taught me that your no list ought to be a lot bigger than your yes list. And you ought to be decisive about what goes on that no list. So there's no lack of clarity when you get down to that impact versus effort in which things you're saying yes to. You got to be really clear about things you're saying no to. And that no list is your opportunity cost.
### 行动与信息获取 >> 我很好奇，我们聊了在职场中快速做决定。那在生活中快速做决定呢？我认为大体上很多人都有这样一种需求，必须拥有完美的信息，才能对一个决定感到踏实。而我发现的是，你很少会拥有完美的信息。而且你在最初的很多推测都会是错的。所以你还不如直接开始。别等完美的信息。直接开始就行，边做边摸索。对于有些人来说这是不舒服的，呃，对于那些明确想在开始前拥有更多确定性的人来说。但我发现，如果你只要开始行动，你就会发现一些参数，让你对最终要做的决定感到更加踏实。
Original English >> I'm curious about we talked about making decisions fast in the workplace. What about making fast decisions in life? I think broadly a lot of people have a need to have perfect information so that they can feel good about a decision. And what I found is you're rarely going to have perfect information. And a lot of your suppositions at the start are going to be wrong. So you might as well just get started. Don't wait for perfect information. Just get started and you'll kind of figure it out as you go. That is a uncomfortable for people for some people uh who definitely want to have more certainty before they start. But I found if you just get started, you're going to find you're going to find the parameters that will lead you to more comfort around the final decision that you'll make.
>> 行动会创造信息。
Original English >> Action creates information.
>> 行动会创造更多信息。信息会带来更多确定性。而在开始时，根据定义，你就是没有信息的。所以你掌握的是不完美的信息。因此你感到不确定是有原因的。
Original English >> Action creates more information. Information creates more certainty. And you don't have by definition you don't have information at the start. So you have imperfect information. and that there's a reason why you're feeling uncertain.
>> 我前几天还在想这个问题，因为如果我等待而你不等，等我开始的时候，你已经学到了那些我在行动之前根本不可能学到的东西。
Original English >> I was thinking about this the other day because if I wait and you don't, by the time I get started, you've already learned things that I couldn't even learn in advance of doing it.
>> 那就是反馈循环的速度。于是你开始学习，只要你在前进，只要你开始了，你就在建立优势。
Original English >> That's that feedback loop speed. And so like you start to learn and you're building an advantage as long as you're moving, as long as you got started.
>> 但正如你所说，如果你现在不开始，你在学习曲线上就会远远落后。而且许多学习曲线都是加速上升的。
Original English >> But to your point, if you don't get started now, you're way behind on the learning curve. And a lot of learning curves accelerate.
所以，你肯定希望尽早开始，这样你就能甚至在竞争对手之前开始积累犯错的经验，因为他们也会犯那些错误。如果你犯了错并从中吸取教训，你就会在竞争中领先好几步，让他们很难赶上。
Original English So, you definitely want to get started so that you start to build the experience of even making mistakes ahead of your competition because they're going to make those mistakes, too. If you make them and learn, you're going to be several steps ahead in the race and hard to catch.
### 埃隆·马斯克的决策与产品会议 >> 在做决策方面，你的流程与埃隆的有什么不同？我描述他做决策的方式是，他非常理性，
Original English >> How did your process differ from Elon's when it came to decision-m? The way I describe his decision-m is he's very rational
而且，呃，我在做决策时也会努力保持理性，
Original English and uh I would try to be rational too in my decision-m
但他是不受约束的。他非常独特，因为他真的不受各种约束的限制。所以我记得在 2017 年、2018 年和他坐在一起的时候，SpaceX 经历了一连串、长长一连串非常不成功的发射，火箭在空中爆炸了。
Original English but he's unconstrained. He's very unique in that he's unconstrained by by constraints really. And so I remember sitting with him in 2017, 2018 and they'd had a string, a long string of really unsuccessful launches at SpaceX, but rockets were blown up in the air.
普通人遇到这种情况通常会进行一番反思，可能会变得沮丧，并考虑在我们真正成功之前公司可能就会耗尽现金，而他与普通人不同。他完全专注于要让这种情况不再发生并实现成功发射所必须满足的两个条件。在排除负面情绪、专注于必须成真的事情并去实现它这方面，他确实非常独特。他是我见过的最独特的人之一，拥有这种基本上能彻底屏蔽失败的能力，
Original English And unlike typical people who would have done a bunch of reflection on that and may have gotten bummed out and thought about the company can be out of cash before we are actually successful. He was totally focused on here are the two things that have to be true for that not to happen again so that we can get a successful launch. And he's just very unique on to shut off the negative and focus on what has to be true uh and achieve that. He's one of the most unique people I've ever met who's like who has that ability to shut off failure essentially
>> 而且这对他完全没有任何影响。
Original English >> and it just doesn't impact him at all.
>> 是的，他真的就像艾萨克森在他的书里写的那样。考虑到他经历过的所有挑战，他的思维构造很独特，而且是的，我认为他完全不受此影响。他看待世界的方式通常截然不同，而且根本不在乎。
Original English >> No, he's really like Isaacson talks about this in his book. He's uniquely wired given all the challenges he's gone through and yeah, I don't think he's he's impacted by that at all. Typically has a very different way of looking at the world and doesn't care.
>> 埃隆是怎么主持产品会议的？
Original English >> How did Elon run product meetings?
他的开场是——我认为这是任何首席执行官都可以借鉴的。他先转向我，呃，首先因为我的主要职责是市场，他会在工程师、制造等团队其余成员面前转向我并问：市场想要什么？会议就是从那里开始的。所以我认为很多首席执行官或领导者都可以使用的一个第一性原理是，如果要谈论产品，首先要谈论客户想要什么，因为那会让整个讨论落到实处。
Original English He started with and I think this is something any CEO can learn from. He turned to me and uh first because my primary responsibility was the marketplace the market and he would turn to me and and say in front of the rest of the team as engineers manufacturing etc. He'd say what does the market want and that's where the meeting started. So I think a first principle that a lot of CEOs can use or leaders can use is if you're going to talk about product talk first about what the customer wants because that grounds the that grounds the whole discussion.
一个具体的例子是，我们发布了 Model X，它卖得还可以，但不是很理想。于是在周一的每周产品会议上，埃隆转向我问：市场想要什么？我说，我在全世界各地都听到了这个反馈，妈妈们想要连排座椅。我们第二排装的是这两个独立座椅，而她们想要连排座椅。她们有三个儿童安全座椅要并排安放，呃，而我们没有连排座椅。于是，他立刻走到白板前，开始画我们该如何把连排座椅安装到现有的特斯拉底盘上。事实证明，那不是个简单的问题，因为底盘最初不是为此设计的，也没有明显的固定点。果不其然，工程负责人就紧挨着站在他身旁，他们正在……呃，他们正在
Original English So an example that a dry example of that is we release the Model X it's selling okay but not great. And so in the weekly product session Elon turns to me on a Monday and says what does the market want? I said like I've heard this all around the world. Mom's wanting a bench seat. We've put these two captain's chairs in the second row. They want a bench seat. They've got three car seats to line up and uh and we don't have a bench seat. So, he immediately goes to the whiteboard and starts to draw how we would attach a bench seat to the existing Tesla chassis. It turns out that is not an easy problem because it wasn't designed for that and there aren't attachment points that are obvious. And sure enough, the head of engineering is right up next to him and they're and uh and they're
画图，他们开始去……他们开始去逐步解决工程问题，然后供应链负责人看着那些说，按照他们现在的方向，我得开始去激活供应链了，看看我们能不能把这类零部件搞定。这一切就像是在实时发生。但产品会议就是这样开的。核心是：客户想要什么？我们如何解决这个问题？我们直接进入解决方案模式。我们不去争论显而易见的事情，直接进入解决方案模式。公司的领导层在白板前设计解决方案，在场的初级工程师看着这一切就会想：“噢，在这个地方，能把事情办成才是硬通货。所以如果我想在这里取得成功，想像那个人一样，我就得像那个人那样行事。所以我也得把事情办成。”因此，这种速度心态在某种程度上融入了整个机构运转的 DNA，一直贯穿到产品会议中。
Original English drawing and they're starting to they're starting to work through the engineering and then the supply chain leader is looking at that saying given the direction they're going, I need to start to light up the supply chain to see if we could get these kinds of parts underway and it's happening like in real time. But that's the way the product meetings worked. It was what does the customer want? How do we solve this? And let's go right into solution mode. Let's not debate the obvious. Let's go right into solution mode. And you've got the leaders of the company who are at whiteboards designing solutions. And the junior engineers that are in the room are watching this and they're saying, "Oh, the currency in this place is getting stuff done. So if I want to be successful here and look like that person, I need to act like that person. So I need to get stuff done." So the whole speed mentality is kind of built into the DNA of the way the place runs all the way down to the product meetings.
从外面往里看，显然很天真地，我会以为有类似演示汇报之类的。演示汇报实际上是个禁忌，幻灯片算是个禁忌。它们有自己的用武之地，比如如果你在做财务分析之类的事情；但如果你是在做产品，我们希望亲自动手，所以你不能用幻灯片来展示你的软件设计。你必须展示实际的软件。我们希望把它摆在面前，希望去把玩它，这样我们才能给出真实的反馈。而你在幻灯片上是做不到这一点的，因为幻灯片往往会掩盖问题，你根本看不清问题，当然也无法与之交互。所以演示汇报是个大禁忌，很多事情就是直接上手。
Original English I would have thought from the outside looking in naively obviously that there's like presentations and like like presentations are a no no actually like uh slides are kind of a no no. They have their place in like if you're doing financial analysis and stuff like that but if you're doing product we wanted to be hands-on and so you couldn't present like slides of your uh software designs. You had to like show the software. We wanted to have it in front of us and we wanted to be playing with it. uh so we could give real feedback which you can't do on slides because slides tend to mask the problems. You can't really see them. You can't certainly can't interact with it. So presentations were a big no no. A lot of stuff was just hands-on.
>> 我在准备这次交流时和通用汽车的一位人士聊过，他们提到你对那里的产品会议产生了影响，那就是去掉了幻灯片。是这样吗？
Original English >> I talked to somebody at at GM and prep for this and they mentioned that uh you had an impact on the product meetings there, but getting rid of slides. Is that
>> 我希望如此。我不知道我有没有做到，但我发现的是，不去用幻灯片谈论理论层面的东西，而是去谈论实际的产品，是非常有帮助的。在我们做过的最后几次产品预审中，有一次是在实验室里看那辆新的软件定义汽车，我们可以实打实地去触摸，能看到线束，看到连接器，看到软件，这对我来说是极大的安心。我习惯的产品展示方式就是那样，我们可以直接与设计系统每个步骤的工程师进行交流，而且我们能亲眼看到。你能看到线束将如何在车身内穿行，你能看到连接器盒是否合理，你能看到各个分区规划是否合理，因为你能真真切切地看到并摸到它。它不是幻灯片上的图像，不是某处可能符合也可能不符合实际情况的仿真。
Original English >> I hope so. like I I don't know if I did, but uh but it it's what I found is it's super helpful not to be talking about the theoretical with slides, but be talking about the actual product. In one of the last product walkthroughs that we did, it was in a lab with the new software designed vehicle and we could literally touch, we could see the wiring, see the connectors, see the software and that for me that's great comfort. Like that's how I was used to doing product presentations where we could literally interact with the engineers who were designing each step of the system and we could literally see it. You could see how the wiring harness was going to work uh weave its way through the car. You could see if the connector pods made sense if you could see where the zones made sense because you could literally see it and touch it. It wasn't on an image on a slide that was in a sim somewhere that may or may not reflect reality.
### 产品自用与反馈循环 >> 这些公司的领导层会亲自深度试用他们自己的产品吗？比如玛丽会把最新的顶级车型开回家自己开，去体验客户经历的所有挑战吗？
Original English >> Do the leaders dog food feed their own products at these companies? It's like does Mary take home the top new model and drive it herself and like go through all the challenges that customers go through?
>> 这是一个极其重要的原则。我们过去常常每天晚上从生产线上开走一辆特斯拉。这样大家就不会知道我们要挑哪辆车。
Original English >> It's a principle that is super important. And we used to we used to drive a Tesla off the line every night. So people wouldn't know which car we were going to grab.
>> 没办法提前粉饰。确实就是，我们会过去说：“好吧，那辆倒数第五辆快要完工的，我就站在这儿等它下线，我就要那一辆。”很多时候你会看到，人们会知道，好吧，有谁要过来了，有高管要下来了，他们要挑一辆车。那我们去提一辆车，把这东西从头到脚擦得锃亮，确保没有任何瑕疵，没有任何毛病，没有任何缺陷，我们要给他们一台完美的产品。我们说：“我们不要完美的产品，我们要的是客户从产线上提走的那种产品。所以，我要亲自下来，我要随机挑一辆车，我马上要把那辆车开走，我要把它开回家，我要记笔记，然后第二天早上我要把它开回工厂。”对我来说通常特别早，因为早班从6点开始。“然后我要把返程试驾的笔记写下来。这样等工程师早上8点坐到办公桌前的时候，他们的收件箱里就会有来自多位高管的反馈说明，上面写着：‘这是我对这款产品的体验。这是非常棒的地方，这是我无法容忍的地方，请你们修整一下好吗？’而且这是每天都在进行的。这是一个日常的反馈循环，我们在通过这种方式表明：‘嘿，我们也是消费者，我们也希望产品变得更好。’所以你们得到的每周或每两周一次的软件更新，很大一部分就来自于亲自深度试用。而且我们不仅自己深度试用产品，”
Original English >> I couldn't dress it up. Like literally, we'd come and say, "Okay, that one that's fifth from being finished, I'm going to stand here until it comes off the line. I'm taking that one." oftentimes you'll see like people people will know, okay, somebody's coming down, some executives coming down. They're going to pick a car. Let's go pull a car. Let's polish the heck out of this thing. Make sure there are no warts, no issues, no bugs, and we're going to give them the perfect product. We said, "We don't want the perfect product. We want the product the customer is going to receive off the line. So, I'm going to come down. I'm going to pick a car at random and I'm going to immediately take that car and I'm going to drive it home and I'm going to take notes and then I'm going to drive it back to the factory the next morning. Typically super early in my case because the shift started at 6. I'm going to then write down my return drive notes. And so by the time an engineer hits their desk at 8 a.m. in their inbox are notes from a number of executives saying, "Here's my experience with this product. Here's what was awesome. Here's what I couldn't stand. Can you please fix this?" And it's daily. It's a daily feedback loop where we are saying, "Hey, we're consumers, too. We want the product to get better." So those weekly or bi-weekly software releases you get, a lot of that's coming from eating dog food. And we would not only eat our dog food,
埃隆说：“我负责推特上的反馈，X 上的反馈。”我说：“好极了，我负责 Reddit 和论坛上的反馈。”
Original English Elon said, "I'll take the Twitter feedback, the X feedback." I said, "Great. I'll take the Reddit and the forums."
于是我……我们俩每天都在互动。比如我会在会议间隙抽出时间，看 Reddit 上关于我们的反馈，然后我就能走进会议室说：“伙计们，Reddit 上吵翻天了，因为我们上次软件更新出了篓子。我们能不能赶紧处理一下？”我们经常开玩笑说，我觉得我们竞争对手的高管没有这么紧跟节奏。这对我们很有帮助，因为我们拥有自己的直营店，我们不是通过经销商销售。我们拥有自己的服务中心，所以我们能立即看到有关车辆维修情况的数据。我们拥有这些反馈循环，帮助我们对市场做出响应。这就是整个理念所在。所以再次回到这个主题：速度、速度、速度。而速度来自反馈循环，其中一个反馈循环就是亲自使用自己的产品。
Original English And so I was both of us were interacting on a daily basis. Like I would carve time out in between meetings. I'd be reading like Reddit feedback on on us and I'd be able to walk into a meeting and say, "Guys, Reddit is lighting up because something is goofed up with our last software release. Can we just can we get on this?" And we would often joke around, I don't think our competition's executives are this in tune. And it was helpful for us because we owned our own stores. We weren't selling through dealerships. We owned our own service centers. So, we saw the data about what was getting fixed on a car immediately. And we had these feedback loops that would help us be responsive to the marketplace. And that was the whole idea. So again, this whole theme of speed, speed, speed. And speed comes from feedback loops. And one of those feedback loops is using your own product.
>> 那些一线数据有多重要？比如当客户坐进一辆车里，他们提出了反馈或评价，那些信息会和维修、损坏以及……
Original English >> How important is that frontline data? Like when a customer goes into a car and they have feedback or comments on it, does that get collected along with repairs and damages and
>> 故障零部件一起被收集起来吗？
Original English >> faulty parts?
>> 100%。所有这些都会被分析，然后呈现出来，说：“好的，这是我们需要着手解决的内容。”我们之所以清楚这一点，是因为我们也是该产品的用户。所以很多时候我们自己也已经知道了。
Original English >> 100%. And all that's getting analyzed and then served up and saying, "Okay, here here's the stuff we got to work on." And we knew that because we were users of the product. So often times we'd know it too.
### 获取客户需求与产品直觉 >> 你们还能通过什么方式弄清楚客户想要什么？比如你提到这是产品会议开始的关键。有很多人觉得……我是说乔布斯并没有问大家想要什么样的手机。不，他拥有设计直觉。我认为在凭直觉与掌握充分信息之间存在着一种平衡。
Original English >> How else do you figure out what customers want? Like you mentioned that being a key to how the product meeting started. There's a lot of people who I mean you could Jobs didn't ask what people wanted in a phone. No, he he had design instincts. And I think there's this balance between being instinctual and also being informed.
为了掌握充分信息，我认为我们许多领导者都有不同的做法。我的做法是走访门店。我这是从山姆·沃尔顿那里学来的。其实我读了他的自传，真正触动我的一件事就是，他花了大量时间待在他的店里，询问他的员工，比如什么商品好卖，什么商品不好卖，我们需要什么，我们需要淘汰什么，竞争对手有什么；然后他还会去竞争对手那里实地考察。所以我的方法是每周抽出一顿时间，去世界某个地方的一线走访一天。我会去一家门店，去一家服务中心，去一家竞争对手的经销店，然后就去问客户：“对于这款产品，你喜欢什么？对于这款产品，你不喜欢什么？什么因素才会让你最终迈出那一步，从我们这里购买这款产品？”这也是一种输入形式，帮助我结合常规来源及常规数据分析方法所获得的数据，完善对全局的理解。它帮助让数据变得生动具体。我可以这样说：“是的，我和大约20位想要这种长椅式座椅的母亲聊过，我看到了她们眼中的渴望与热情，只要我们能提供，她们就会买。我敢这样跟你保证。”所以这部分靠掌握充分信息，部分靠直觉。比如我亲眼看到了背后的热情，我认为这行得通。
Original English And um and so to be informed, I think a lot of us as leaders have different ways of doing that. My way of doing that is is going out into the stores. I learned this from uh from Sam Walton. Actually, I read his autobiography and one of the things that really struck me was how much time he spent in his stores asking his people like what product is moving, what product isn't moving, what do we need, um what do we need to get rid of, what does the competition have, and then he'd go shop the competition. Uh and and so my method was to go one day a week to the front lines somewhere in the world. So, I'd go to a store, I'd go to a service center, I'd go to a competitive dealership, and and I just ask customers like, "What do you like about this product? What don't you like about this product? What would cause you to to to finally come across the line and buy this uh buy this product from us?" And that was a form of input then that helped me under helped me round out the data that we were getting from, you know, pretty standard sources with standard ways of analyzing that data. It helped bring color to it. Um, and I could say like, yeah, I've talked to like 20 moms who want this bench seat and I've seen the fire and the energy in their eyes and if we deliver this, they're going to buy it. I can tell you like that. So that's part in being informed and part instinct. Like I'm seeing the energy behind this personally. I think I think this is going to go.
>> 然后你就能获得即时数据，以便在情况……时进行纠偏。
Original English >> And then you have immediate data to course correct if it's
>> 没奏效时及时纠偏，没错。是的。
Original English >> exactly if it's not. Yeah.
>> 优秀产品的核心原则是什么？当你想到一款像特斯拉那样的优秀产品，或者其他产品时，你认为它们有什么共同点？
Original English >> What are the key tenets of a great product? When you think about a great product like a Tesla or other products, what do you think they have in common?
>> 我认为它们在设计上很简单，这赋予了它们……的机会
Original English >> I think they're simple uh in their design which gives gives them a chance at being
优雅。呃，所以如果你回想一下，比如 iPhone 刚出来的时候，它在设计上迈出了巨大的一步。我们当时用的全都是带键盘的翻盖手机，还有……
Original English elegant. Uh, and so if you think about like when the iPhone came out, it was such a step forward in design. We all had flip phones with keyboards and
>> 黑白屏幕。确实如此。
Original English >> black screen. Exactly.
>> 然后突然之间，这个漂亮的东西就出来了，这是因为有一位设计师——史蒂夫·乔布斯说，它不应该有任何按键，拿在手掌心里应该非常漂亮。这是一个非常简单的构想，乔尼·艾夫（Jony Ive）和团队正是由此创造出了美感。我想说的是，特斯拉的运作方式也很类似，从某种意义上说，埃隆在脑海中构想出：这就是我希望这辆车能做到的纯粹与极简。然后他去找他的“乔尼·艾夫”，也就是设计主管弗朗兹（Franz），弗朗兹能够以非常优美的方式将其实体化。因此，你就有了这样一辆相当简洁的车——Model Y，它成了全球最畅销的汽车。它的销量超过了凯美瑞（Camry），超过了 RAV4。
Original English >> And all of a sudden this beautiful thing came out was because a designer Steve Jobs said it should have no buttons and it should be beautiful in the palm of your hand. That's a very s simple construct from which Johnny IV and the team created beauty. And I would say that it works similarly at Tesla in the sense that Elon kind of constructs in his mind here's the simplicity of what I want this vehicle to do. Then he goes to his version of Johnny Ives which is Fron the head of design and Fron can bring that to life in a very beautiful way. And so you have this pretty simple car, the Model Y, that is the number one selling car in the world. It outsells Camry. It outsells Rav 4s.
而且它的设计极其简朴。呃，它的内饰没有任何花哨多余的装饰。呃，甚至真的没有你可以直视的仪表盘。它只有一块位于乘客和驾驶员之间的屏幕。但我认为，那种简朴的美感让你能够打造出一款出色的产品。而在史蒂夫·乔布斯心中对伟大产品的定义——埃隆也采纳了这一点——就是你不需要销售团队。它自己就能卖得动。
Original English And it's utterly simple in its design. Uh its interior has no bells and whistles. Uh really doesn't even have a dash that you look at. It's got one screen that sits in between the passenger and the driver. But that kind of simple beauty allows you to execute, I think, a great product. And the definition of a great product in Steve Jobs's mind and Elon's adopted this too is it you don't need a sales force. It sells itself.
我们还发现，当我们去为门店招聘销售人员时，如果我们从苹果门店招人，他们其实根本不懂怎么去销售，因为他们只懂得接订单。人们争先恐后地想要那些设备，他们根本不需要去主动推销。你真正想招进门店的人，是来自微软门店的员工，因为他们不得不把 Surface 平板放在 iPad 旁边去卖。如果他们能把 Surface 平板卖出去，他们大概就懂得怎么去销售了。我认为优秀的产品最终确实是自带销量的。就像它能从货架上一抢而空，因为市场上存在拉动力，而不是靠推销。
Original English And we found that when we went to hire salespeople for our stores, if we hired people out of Apple stores, they really didn't know how to sell because they knew how to take an order. People were clamoring for those devices and they didn't have to sell them at all. The people that you wanted in the stores were people that were at the Microsoft stores because they had to sell a Surface tablet next to an iPad. And if they could sell a Surface tablet, they probably knew how to sell. And I think great product does at the end sell itself. Like it flies off the shelves cuz there's pull out of the market versus push.
我用 HeyGen 为自己制作了一个 AI 分身。大家接下来将在这里看到的是我的数字虚拟形象。我问它为什么有些专业人士能建立起自己的受众群体，而大多数人却默默无闻。以下是它的回答：“嘿，谢恩，现在脱颖而出的专业人士并不是最有才华的那些人，而是曝光度最高的人。这就是他们的优势。他们频繁出现在视频中，其他人根本跟不上这个节奏。只要录制一次你自己，我就能替你填补这一差距，让你成为大家信赖的面孔。”这就是 HeyGen。只要录制自己 15 秒钟，就能获得一个让你无需亲自拍摄也能持续发帖的数字形象，这样你就不需要成为全职内容创作者。已有 3000 万人正在使用它，从财务顾问、房地产中介，到《财富》100 强企业的 85%。在 heygen.com/tkp 可以免费制作前三个视频。网址是 heygen.com/tkp。
Original English I built an AI version of myself with Hey Jen. What you're about to see in here is my digital avatar. I asked it why some professionals build an audience while most stay invisible. And here's what it said. Hey Shane, the professionals breaking out right now aren't the most talented ones. They're the most visible ones. That's their edge. They show up on video constantly and nobody else can keep the pace. Record yourself once and I close that gap. So you become the face people trust. That's Hey Jen. Record yourself for 15 seconds and get an avatar that keeps you posting without filming. So you don't need to become a full-time content creator. 30 million people already use it. From financial adviserss and real estate agents to 85% of the Fortune 100. Your first three videos are free at heyen.com/tkp. That's h egeen.comtkp.
你是否有过下午 3 点突然感觉大脑罢工的情况？对很多人来说，这不是因为咖啡因不足或缺乏睡眠，而是电解质缺乏。光喝水是解决不了问题的。这就是为什么我每天午餐后都会喝 Element。零糖，无不良成分，只含有货真价实剂量的钠、钾和镁。我知道你们都会觉得电解质是给运动员用的，但你不必是运动员也能从中受益。而且它口感非常好。在下午保持敏锐，在 drinklmnt.com/tkp 购买任意商品即可免费获得一份 8 包装样品装。网址是 drinklmnt.com/tkp。
Original English Ever hit 3 p.m. and feel like your brain just quit? For a lot of people, that's not caffeine or sleep. It's electrolytes. And water alone won't fix it. That's why I drink Element every day after lunch. Zero sugar, no dodgy ingredients, just a real dose of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. I know you're all thinking electrolytes are for athletes, but you don't have to be an athlete to benefit from it. And it tastes great. Stay sharp in the afternoon and grab a free 8count sample pack with any purchase at drinklement.com/tkp. That's drinklmnt.com/tkp.
### 产品哲学的源起与 iPod 范式 你提到了乔布斯。关于埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯的会面，流传着一个故事。
Original English You mentioned Jobs. There's a story about Elon and Steve Jobs meeting.
>> 对。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 你还记得那个故事吗？
Original English >> Do you remember that one?
>> 我记得。
Original English >> I do.
>> 按埃隆的说法，他们见过好几次，史蒂夫很多次都爱理不理地敷衍了他。
Original English >> As Elon tells it, they met several times and Steve kind of blew him off a ton.
>> 然后呃，有一天晚上，我想是在门洛帕克（Menlo Park）的一家寿司店里，埃隆堵住了他。呃，然后基本上是说，直接把你的设计哲学告诉我吧。史蒂夫说，那很简单。呃，如果产品是完美的，它就会自己卖得动。所以你必须致力于打造完美的产品。这一点深深印在了埃隆的脑海里。 几个月前，我有幸能和史蒂夫·乔布斯当时的那位幕僚长坐下来共进早餐。他向我描述了产品设计到底是如何进行的，因为我说：“詹姆斯，我想知道你们究竟是如何真正去设计产品的？”他说：“我们从极致的简单和需求出发，但那些需求必须是完全正确的。”我说：“那给我举个例子吧。”他说：“好吧，坐上时光机回到过去。当时 MP3 播放器刚刚兴起。人们有史以来第一次能够把便携式音乐握在手中的磁盘驱动器里。”而我们当时想要推出一款产品。于是史蒂夫和我走进一个房间，产品设计就是这样发生的：我们在那个房间里待了一个星期。在我们完全确信已经敲定了这款产品的核心两到三项需求之前，我们绝不走出房间。
Original English >> And then uh one night Elon had him cornered, I think, at a sushi place in Menlo Park. And uh and said basically, just give me your design philosophy. And Steve said that's that's easy. Uh if the product is perfect, it will sell itself. So you have to work on perfect product. And that stuck with Elon. And a few months ago, I got to sit down just for breakfast with Steve Jobs as head of his chief of staff at that point. And he described for me like how product design worked because I said, "James, I want to know like how did you really design product?" He said, "We started with utter simplicity and requirements, but they had to be right." And I said, "So give me an example of that." He said, "Okay, get in the Wayback Machine. MP3 players were coming out. People could have portable music on a disc drive for the first time in their hands." And we wanted to come out with a product. And so Steve and I got in a room, and this is the way product design happened. We spent a week in the room. We didn't come out until we were absolutely certain we had nailed the primary two or three requirements for the product.
我问：“好吧，关于 iPod，具体是哪几条需求？”他说：“我们走出来后说，必须满足两件事。”然后我们向参与该项目的工程团队宣布了这一点。第一，它必须能容纳 1000 首歌。当时没有任何设备能做到这一点。第二，你必须在 4 秒或更短的时间内找到你想要的歌曲。 这就是产品必须满足的两件事。最后，它必须外观精美。 于是工程师们听到了这两项需求，反应就像是：首先，我们不知道该怎么做。根本没有拇指大小、能装下 1000 首歌的磁盘驱动器。而且在那么小的设备上，基本上没有芯片支持，也没有操作系统能提供运行速度那么快的搜索算法。因此他们不得不把这两项技术都发明出来。最终他们发明出了一种像大拇指那么大、能装下 1000 首歌的新型固态硬盘。他们还发明了一种具备足够时钟速度来进行歌曲索引和搜索的芯片。接着交互设计（UX）团队又发明了——你还记得那个滚轮吗，你可以用滚轮来搜索——于是你就能立刻定位到歌曲的前三个字母，紧接着，你在 4 秒内找到那首歌的概率飙升了。詹姆斯向我描述了他们在推进产品工程实现过程中的情形。工程师们会跑过来说：“嘿，你看，三星的 MP3 播放器上有 FM 收音机。我们要不要也加个 FM 收音机？”史蒂夫会略带怒意地抬起头问：“那能实现 1000 首歌，还是能实现 4 秒？”不能。好，那它就不能进入产品。能进入产品的就只有这两件事。把这两件事解决了，我们就能拿出一款致胜的产品，因为这就是客户想要的，而且我们可以超级简单地向市场描述它。因此我认为，这些就是埃隆汲取到的原则。硅谷有很多东西都借鉴了乔布斯，但埃隆绝对借鉴了这些原则，并且直接融入了特斯拉的设计理念之中。
Original English And I said, "Okay, what were they for the iPod?" He said, "We came out and said two things had to be true." And we announced this to the engineering teams that were working on it. Number one, it had to hold a thousand songs. Nothing could do that at that time. And you had to find the song you wanted in 4 seconds or less. And those are two things that had to be true about the product. And lastly, it had to be beautiful. And so the engineers heard these two requirements and like first of all, we don't know how to do that. There's no disc drive the size of your thumb that's going to hold a thousand songs. And there's no OS that gets you to a search on a device that big with no chip essentially that gets you a search uh algorithm that will work that fast. And so they had to invent both of them. So they ended up inventing a new form of solid state drive that was as big as your thumb that could hold a thousand songs. And they ended up inventing a chip that had the clock speed to index those songs and search. And then the the UX team invented, you remember the wheel where you could search with the wheel like and so you would you would immediately get to the first three letters of the song and boom, the odds of your finding that song within 4 seconds skyrocketed. James described to me as they were working through the engineering on the product. The engineers would come and say, "Hey, look, Samsung has an FM radio on their MP3 player. Should we have an FM radio?" And Steve would look up with a little bit of anger and say, "Is that a thousand songs or 4 seconds?" No. Okay, then it doesn't go in the product. These are the two things that go in the product. Solve these two things, we have a winning product because it's what the customer wants and we could describe it to the marketplace super simply. And so I think those are the principles that Elon pulled from. A lot of Silicon Valley has pulled from jobs, but Elon definitely pulled those from jobs and it goes right into the design ethos at Tesla.
### 特斯拉的零预算营销模式 >> 我想把话题转回到营销上一会儿。据我所知，特斯拉没有做过任何付费广告。无论如何，
Original English >> I want to come back to marketing for a second. Tesla doesn't do any paid advertising that I noticed. Anyway,
>> 我想他们现在会做一些，但我在那里的时候他们是不做的。呃，这也是这份工作中的挑战之一。埃隆对我说：“嘿，关于这份工作，有件事你应该了解一下。这是你以前大概没有面对过的事情。”我说：“好的，是什么？”他说：“这里的营销预算恰好是零，而你需要在没有任何营销预算的情况下，每六到八个月让公司规模翻一番。”我心想：你是对的，我以前确实没见过这种情况。这该怎么做？他的反应是：我会做给你看。而且他在……方面非常擅长。他今天依然如此。他非常擅长抓住头条新闻，而那些头条会被保留下来，具备可搜索性，并且随后可以在社交媒体上被重新利用。而这直到今天仍然是特斯拉的营销模式。你是否从中汲取到了什么体会……比如，我现在对庞大的营销预算持非常怀疑的态度？嗯，因为我亲眼见证了一家世界巨头企业在几乎没有任何营销预算的情况下建立起来。
Original English >> I think they do now, but they didn't while I was there. And uh it was one of the challenges in this job. Elon said to me, "Hey, like there's something in this job you ought to know about. It's something you probably haven't faced before." I said, ' Okay, what is it? He said, 'The marketing budget here is precisely zero, and you need to double the company every six to eight months with no marketing budget. I'm like, you're right. I haven't seen that before. How do you do that? And he's like, I'll show you. And he was great at at V. He still is today. He's great at capturing headlines and those headlines get preserved. They're searchable and then they're repurposable on social. And that today is still the marketing model at Tesla. Have you learned anything from that that you take away% like I'm very suspect of large marketing budgets now? Um because I've seen one of the world's largest companies get built with almost no marketing budget.
>> 那么如果你不是埃隆·马斯克，你该怎么去进行这种方式的营销呢？特斯拉当时还在做的其他事情是什么……
Original English >> How do you go about marketing that way without being Elon Musk then? Like what are the other things that Tesla was doing that
>> 我们……比如在 2014、2015 年我们刚开始做这件事的时候，埃隆还不是现在的埃隆。他在 X 上还没有 1 亿关注者，我们必须建立起他的受众群体，而我们是有意去这样做的。所以我们最初是通过太空领域来建立受众的，因为当时 X（当时的 Twitter）上有很多太空发烧友。建立起他的粉丝群之后，我们开始加入更多的汽车内容…… 而且他超级深入地参与到……
Original English >> we like Elon wasn't Elon back in 2014 2015 when we started doing this? He didn't have 100 million followers on X and we had to build up his audience which we did purposely. So we built it up first through space because there's a lot of space fanboys uh on X on Twitter at the time. Build up his fan base and then we started to build more car content in and he was super involved in
这个。他会指导我们，比如“这是我唯一会发布的内容，因为我必须维护自己的品牌，在这里时刻注意我和特斯拉的品牌形象。所以，我们必须非常小心。”
Original English this. He would coach us on like this is the only kind of stuff I'm going to release because I got to watch my brand and be aware of my brand and Tesla's brand here. So, we got to be really careful.
>> 等等，他会在那方面指导你们？
Original English >> Wait, he would coach you on that?
>> 哦，百分之百。他有非常好的品牌形象。
Original English >> Oh, 100%. Like, he's got a very good brand.
>> 他有他的推文。
Original English >> He's got his tweets.
>> 我知道。不过如果你回想一下当时的特斯拉，如果你回去看看那些推文，那全都是、仅仅是产品营销。如果我们推出了新的产品功能，全轮驱动，砰，就发布出去了。如果我们推出了新的汽车功能，狂暴模式（Ludicrous），砰，就发布出去了。我们非常谨慎，几乎是带着稀缺感让他把这些内容发出去。我们会利用围绕这个引发的新闻报道，然后对所获得的所有报道进行二次利用。这足以在全球掀起一股讨论热潮，让人觉得这些东西、这辆车真的与众不同，这家公司真的与众不同。而我们所需要做的，只是让你在网上或实体店里来看这款产品。就在那时，我们便能引导你进入转化漏斗。
Original English >> I know. Well, like if you think about though with Tesla back in that time, if you go back and look at those tweets, it was only only uh product marketing. If we came up with a new product feature, all-wheel drive, boom, that was getting released. If we came up with a new car feature, Ludicrous, boom, that was getting released. And we were being very thoughtful and and almost with scarcity having him blast these things out. And we would use the press around this uh and then we would repurpose all the press we got. And that was enough to create a buzz uh around the globe that this stuff, this car was really different, this company was really different. Um, and all we needed to do was have you come check out the product online or in store. That's then when we could pull you through the funnel.
### 制造与交付规模化 >> 我记得你在特斯拉任职期间，销售额大约增长了10倍。我很好奇，面对这种规模化速度，物理基础设施方面需要做些什么。我的经验是在软件领域，在发展过程中插入服务器要容易得多。但要把一家汽车公司规模化10倍——
Original English >> I think you scaled Tesla about 10x while you were there in terms of sales. I'm curious what goes into the physical infrastructure with that velocity of scaling. My experience was in software and it was much easier to plug in servers while you were growing. But to 10x
一家汽车公司，你必须做那些你都知道的显而易见的事情。你必须建工厂，必须建供应链，必须建交付体系，必须建分销、销售，所有这些都是必须建造的实体事物。所以有时候我们会创造性地重塑这些东西。与其建造服务中心，我们发现服务中心里针对汽车能维修的内容，有80%可以在客户的车道上完成。因此我们开创了移动服务，这样我们就不必再建造销售中心或服务中心，或者说不必建那么多了。所以团队的创造力帮助我们打破了其中一些假设。但是是的，我们必须建造实体设施。建工厂是绕不开的。如果你要造车，你就必须建工厂来生产汽车。
Original English a car company, you've got to do the obvious things that you would know. You got to build factories, you got to build supply chain, you got to build delivery, you've got to build uh distribution, sales, and all that stuff is physical things that have to be built. So sometimes we would creatively reinvent those things. So rather than like building service centers, we discovered that 80% of what you could repair in a service center on a car could be done in a customer's driveway. So we invented mobile service so that we didn't have to build sales or service centers anymore or as many. And so the creativity of the team helped us bend some of these assumptions. But yeah, we had to build physical stuff. There's no getting around building a factory. If you're going to make cars, you got to make you got to make a factory to bank the cars.
>> 但我过去总认为这有点像是关键路径，但埃隆表明你们建造工厂的速度达到了我们认为根本不可能的水平。
Original English >> But I used to think that would be sort of like the critical path, but Elon has shown that you would build factories and times that we would not think even possible.
>> 部分原因在于工厂被极度简化了。与竞争对手相比而言。如果你看一座汽车工厂，它差不多有一英里长，是一个长长的矩形。如果你坐在工厂中间的50码线处向右看，你会看到一大片机器人在焊接称为底盘的汽车骨架。如果你向左看，你会看到一大群人在那个骨架上挂装零件。那叫做总装。
Original English >> Partly because the factories are utterly simplified. So compared to competition. So like if you take a car factory, it's almost a mile long uh and it's a long rectangle. And if you sat on the 50-yard line in the middle of the factory and you looked right, you see a sea of robots welding the skeleton of the car called a chassis. And if you look left, you see a sea of humans hanging parts on that skeleton. That's called general assembly.
于是埃隆向管理团队发出了挑战：我们必须把其中50%砍掉。
Original English And so Elon gave the challenge to the management team. We have to cut 50% of that out.
我们必须这样做，因为我们必须同中国人竞争。他们目前拥有极大的成本优势，等等。于是当时担任工程负责人的道格·菲尔德（Doug Field）想出了这个替代半座工厂的方法。那就是与其焊接汽车骨架，他和他的团队确实发明了一种将其压铸成型的方法。也就是将液态铝注入模具中，在他们做成这件事之前那是无法制造出来的。他们将1600度的铝注模，让其冷却凝固成汽车骨架底盘的形状。因此特斯拉能够如此迅速地建造这些工厂，是因为道格和他的团队想出了如何省去半座工厂的方法。所以现在，是的，你可以更快地建造这些设施，因为现在我不需要让数百台机器人同步作业、交付这个由300个零件完美焊接而成的骨架了。现在我有两个拼接在一起的部件，我不再需要那半座工厂了。
Original English And we have to do this because we got to be competitive with the Chinese. They're ultra costs advantaged right now, etc. So Doug Field, who was the head of engineering, came up with this method to replace half of the factory. And that was rather than welding the skeleton of the car, he invented literally his and his teams invented a way to cast that. So to pour liquid aluminum into a mold that was impossible to produce before they did this, they would take 1600°ree aluminum and and mold it and allow it to cool into the form of the chassis of the skeleton of the car. So the reason that Tesla can build these factories so rapidly, it could because Doug and his team figured out how to eliminate half the factory. So now, yeah, you can build these things a lot faster because now I don't have to have hundreds of robots get synced up, deliver this perfectly welded 300piece skeleton. Now I've got two parts that come together and I don't need that half of the factory anymore.
这意味着你可以更快地建造工厂。所以整个团队一直在琢磨如何优化和发明，从而使我们在20或30个月内将一家公司规模化10倍成为现实。这纯粹需要促成这一切并开创这些新做事方式的人们展现出惊人的创造力。所以道格发明了压铸件，我们就不再需要一半的工厂占地面积了。库斯塔（Kusta）和他的团队发明了移动服务，我们就不需要那部分占地面积了。我们正是通过极其富有创造力地改变模式，从而释放了增长。压铸难题真的是用一辆风火轮玩具车解决的吗？
Original English So that means you can build factories faster. So we were just the whole team was figuring out how do you optimize and invent to make this a reality where we could 10x a company in 20 or 30 months. Uh and it just required incredible creativity on the part of the people that were making that happen and inventing these new ways of doing things. So Doug invents uh invents castings and we don't need half the factory footprint. Kusta and and his team invent mobile service. We don't need that footprint. Uh and we just were able to unleash growth through being really creative about changing the model. Is it true the casting problem was fixed like with a Hot Wheels car?
>> 嗯，那是道格最初用来沟通的方式，是他传达何为可能的方式。他说：“我有答案了。”他在桌子上推过来一辆风火轮玩具车，然后说：“这就是答案。这就是我们消除一半成本和半座工厂的方法。”我们当时说：“那是一辆火柴盒玩具车啊。”当然，你可以注模成型一个像拇指那么大的东西，但是注模半辆车大小的物件所涉及的物理原理、固定住铝液所需的压力，以及为了不让那玩意儿爆炸所需的模具材料，在当时都是不可能做到的。在他们摸索出方法之前，没人知道该怎么做，因为按字面意义来说物理上根本不可行。人们不知道该怎么做。所以，如果你说那在物理上是不可能的，那也是准确的，但他们想出了办法。这为特斯拉创造了长达8年的竞争优势，因为直到现在汽车制造商才开始涉足压铸。这就是速度的全貌。当你以那种速度进行发明时，通过攻克这些艰难的技术难题，你就在相比竞争对手创造出持续多年甚至长达十年的优势。
Original English >> Well, that was Doug's original uh communic It's the way he communicated what was possible. He's like, "I have the answer." And he rolled a Hot Wheels car across the table and he's like, "Here's the answer. Here's how we're going to get rid of half the cost and half the factory." And we're like, "That's a Matchbox car." Like of course you can mold something as big as your thumb, but the physics of molding something the size of half of a car, the pressures that it takes to hold that aluminum in place and the mold materials that it takes so that that thing doesn't like explode are were impossible at the time. Nobody had figured out how to do it before they figured out how to do it because it was literally the physics were impossible. People didn't know how to do it. So, you could say that was physically impossible and be accurate, but they figured it out. And it's created an 8-year competitive advantage for Tesla cuz just now cars car manufacturers are getting into casting. And that is the whole kind of character characterization of speed. Like when you invent at that speed, you're creating these multiple year maybe decadel long advantages versus your competition by going after these hard technical problems.
### Neuralink的起源 我记得Neuralink起步时你就在车里。
Original English I think you were in the car when Neurolink started.
>> 是的，当那个萌芽或雏形想法产生时，我确实在场。
Original English >> Yeah, when when that seed or kind of German of an idea started for sure.
>> 发生了什么？
Original English >> What happened?
>> 埃隆和我一起去中国出差。我们刚在香港降落。我们坐在Model S的后座上，都在手机上处理收件箱邮件。他看着我，转头看着我说：“你用大拇指打字有多快？”我说：“我完全不知道，从来没测过时间。”他说：“嗯，普通人大约是每分钟18个词。”他又问：“你在键盘上打字有多快？”我说：“我想我高中的时候大概是每分钟60到70个词。我现在大概和那时差不多，甚至可能更快。就算60个词吧。”他说：“没错。所以你在键盘上比在手机上快了三倍多。所以这个设备减慢了向机器输入的速度。”我说：“是的，慢了3倍。”
Original English >> Eli and I were traveling together to China. We just landed uh in Hong Kong. We're in the back of a Model S and we're both like uh catching up on our uh on our inbox on our phones. And he looks at me, looks over at me and says, "How fast can you type with your thumbs?" And I said, "I have no idea. I've never timed it. He's like, "Well, the average human is like 18 words a minute." He said, "How fast can you type on a keyboard?" I said, "Like I think it's like 60 or 70 words a minute when I was in high school. I'm probably as good as I was then, maybe better. So, let's call it 60." He said, "Exactly. So, you are more than three times faster on the keyboard than you are on your phone. So, the this device has slowed the input into the machine." And I said, "Yeah, it has by 3x."
接着他说：“是啊，这事非同小可。因为如果你速度慢了三倍，你就无法获得快速的答案和决策……”我说：“是的，你说得对。”他说：“要是你能直接把想法输入进机器呢？”我说：“那可就把这个瓶颈彻底打破了，因为现在我们不用再通过键盘和大拇指了。现在你就像是把思维实时输入进机器一样。”他说：“没错。那将把人类计算的前端限制解除掉。这意义重大。”所以他没有把这些想法搁置起来。他在这一点上非常独特。他对坐在前座的幕僚长山姆·泰勒（Sam Teller）说，山姆，你能找出全球顶尖的神经计算机科学接口研究人员吗？把他们的论文找来，我想在我们待在中国的这段时间以及回程航班上看这些论文，而且我想在下周与这些人见面，因为我想开始研究脑机接口。速度就是这么快。所以到了下一周，他就正在与该领域全球的一些顶尖人才会面，并且抓住不放，直到他创立了Neuralink。
Original English And he's like, "Yeah, that's a big deal. because you can't get speed of answers and decision-m if you're going three times slower. I said, "Yeah, that's you're right." He's like, "What if you could think into the machine?" I was like, "Well, that would blow this constraint away because now we don't have keyboards and thumbs to go through. Now you're like thinking in real time into the machine." He's like, "Exactly. That would pull the front-end constraint off of the compute for humans. That's a big deal." So he didn't sit on these ideas. Uh he's very unique in this in this way. And uh he said to his chief of staff uh Sam Teller who was in the front seat he Sam can you track down the top neuro computer science interface researchers in the world get their papers I want to read the papers while we're here in China and on the flight back and I want to meet with these people next week because I want to start to work on brain computer interface and just like that fast. So by the next week he's meeting with some of the top minds in the world on this topic and he doesn't let go until he starts nurling.
>> 这里面包含了多重洞见。我非常赞赏这种迅速付诸行动的执行力。
Original English >> I mean multiple insights there. I love the speed to actually taking action.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 而且现在我们有了与AI对话，你有点像是在使用语音模式。
Original English >> Um and now we have chat with like AI where you're sort of like voice mode.
>> 没错。正是如此。
Original English >> Right. Exactly.
>> 这比打字快得多。
Original English >> Uh which is much faster than typing.
>> 是的。比如现在最火的公司之一是Whisper Flow，你可以直接对电脑说话，差不多放弃打字、键盘，然后你
Original English >> Yeah. Like one of the hottest companies is Whisper Flow right now where you just talk to your computer and you kind of give up the type the keyboard and you
能写代码，也能做设计，而且……是的。
Original English can code and you can design and Yeah.
太厉害了。
Original English That's amazing.
### “五步算法”的诞生与内涵 >> 你的书名叫《算法》（*The Algorithm*）。什么是“算法”？
Original English >> Your book is called the algorithm. What is the algorithm?
>> 它是我们用来实现这些突破和创新的一个公式，或者更确切地说，我认为是一个框架。这个框架是我们通过对犯过的一系列重大错误进行复盘，并反问自己“我们怎样才能不再犯这种错误？”而总结出来的。 随着时间的推移，我们琢磨出了这套五步算法，它能帮我们避免重蹈覆辙；而反过来，它也能推动创新。事实证明，这是一个极其强大的框架，至今仍在使用。比如在 SpaceX 的 IPO 幻灯片前几页里，就有一页叫做“算法”——他们在那里说：嘿，如果你打算投资这家公司，你需要知道这家公司是如何运转的。我们就是依托“算法”这个框架运转的，正是它带来了发动机从猛禽 1 号（Raptor 1）到猛禽 2 号再到猛禽 3 号的技术跃升。特斯拉很大程度上也是以这种方式构建起来的。
Original English >> It's a formula that we use or really a framework I would say that we used to create these breakthroughs and to create innovations. And it was a framework that we developed by doing postmortems and on a series of big mistakes that we'd made and asking ourselves, how do we not make this mistake again? And we came up with over time this five-step algorithm that would help us not repeat mistakes. And the counterfactual was it would drive innovation. So it turned out to be a really powerful framework that's in use today. Like in the SpaceX IPO in the first few slides there's a slide called the algorithm uh where they say hey like if you're going to invest in this company you need to know how this company runs. And we run on this framework of the algorithm and it's what led to the advancements from Raptor 1 to Raptor 2 to Raptor 3, the engine. Um, and very much Tesla is built that way too.
>> 你能不能再深入拆解一下？带我梳理一下这五步。
Original English >> Can you maybe double click on that? Walk me through the five.
>> 这完全是一场精简之旅。简化的第一步，你就要落实这一点：你要剔除所有不真实或愚蠢的需求。所以你要质疑每一个需求。这就意味着，比如你有一份 12 页的贷款文件，你要去质疑为什么需要这份贷款文件里的每一个段落，为什么不能把它压缩到一个段落。因此，第一步就是尽可能多地消除需求。 现在你有了一套更简单的需求，接着你设计一个新流程去交付它们，并且在流程中尽可能多地删除步骤。我过去常在团队里用一个窍门，我会说：把流程画出来。真的把流程的每一步用便利贴贴在墙上，然后去把客户愿意付钱的那些步骤圈出来。结果发现，在几乎任何业务流程中，客户愿意买单的都只是极少数步骤。他们不会为文件买单，不会为沟通买单，也不会为人力资源福利买单，诸如此类的各种事情，他们都不买单。所以你必须想清楚：好的，我该如何以一种完全围绕客户付费内容最大化的方式来交付？这是第二步。 第三步是，现在你有了一个非常精简的全新流程，接下来你需要开始运行它，并通过手动操作来对其进行优化和打磨。 第四步，你给这个流程应用那个绝佳的“检验器”——速度。当你加快流程时，它的所有瑕疵都会暴露出来。它会暴露哪里会断掉，暴露它的失效点，暴露质量问题。就是这样，速度能让你看清所有的失效点，然后你就可以把它们从流程中剔除掉。 一旦你拥有了一个在高速运转下仍表现优异的流程，接着你再进行自动化。所以算法的最后一步是：最后才做自动化。我们以前犯过“先自动化”的错误，也犯过“不质疑需求”的错误，结果陷入了长达数月、问题迟迟得不到解决的死循环。因此，这整个框架不仅能让你解决问题，还能带来创新，因为你正在剔除竞争对手以为存在、但实际上或许根本不需要存在的需求。
Original English >> It's all a journey in simplification. Uh, and so you kind of get that with five steps for the first step of simplification. You want to remove all requirements that aren't real or dumb. And so you question every requirement. And so that means things like if you have a 12-page loan doc, you question why you need every paragraph in that loan doc and why you can't get it down to one paragraph. So you eliminate as many requirements as you can is the first step. Now you've got a simpler set of requirements and then you design a new process to deliver those and you delete as many steps in the process as you can. And the hack that I would use with my teams is I would say map the process out. Like literally put sticky notes on a wall for each step of the process and then go circle the ones the customers pay you for. And it turns out in almost any business process, a super minority of those the customers pay you for. They don't pay you for documents. They don't pay you for communications. They don't pay you for HR benefits. All kinds of stuff. They don't pay for that. And so you got to figure out, okay, how would I deliver this in a way that is totally maximized around what the customer is paying for. That's step two. Step three is now you have a brand new process that has been very simplified. Now you need to start to run it and optimize it and polish it manually. And step four is you apply the great kind of revealer to that process, which is speed. When you speed up a process, it shows all of its warts. It shows where it breaks. It shows its uh its failure points. It shows quality points. And so you've got it. Speed allows you to like see all the failure points. And you can then scrub those out of the process. And then once you've got a process that's working at speed optimally, then you automate. And so the last step of the algorithm is you automate last. And we had made mistakes like automating first. we'd made mistakes like just not questioning requirements and ended up in like multiple month loops on problems that wouldn't go away. And so this whole framework allows you to not only solve problems but innovate um because you're you're eliminating requirements that your competitors think exist but they might not need to exist
### 制造业之外的应用：以物料清单重构 ETF >> 在制造业之外，你能给我举一个你最近用它解决问题的例子吗？
Original English >> outside of manufacturing. Can you give me like a recent example of how you've used that to solve a problem?
>> 可以。这是一个很疯狂的例子，是在金融产品领域的。大约两年前，我在 CNBC 接受采访，谈论超级周期，谈到我们活在当下有多幸运——眼下正在发生如此多的超级周期，使得现在成为做投资者的极佳时机。如果我们生活在 100 年前，我们只有工业革命，就只有这一个。但我们今天活着，我们迎来了人工智能、电气化、机器人、太空、生物科技，所有这些都在同时发生。所以，这是成为投资者的极佳时机。 采访结束后，乔·柯南（Joe Kernan）和安德鲁·索金（Andrew Ross Sorkin）转向我问：“我们该怎么投资？”我说：“嗯，我相信针对这些超级周期中的每一个，都存在主题 ETF。这样吧，我去研究几个，回头给你们发短信提供些想法。” 于是我坐上车，穿过市区，从时代广场前往我们在肉类加工区的办公室，开始研究不同的交易所交易基金（ETF）。原来，市场上交易的 ETF 数量比股票还要多，这就是如今人们交易和投资的方式。接着，我打开了规模最大的电气化 ETF，排名前五的持仓是亚马逊、谷歌、微软、英伟达和苹果。 我看着这些持仓，心想：这些跟电气化根本毫无关系。电网里没有这些东西，电动车里也没有这些东西。我们总不能把一颗价值 20,000 美元的英伟达芯片装进汽车里吧，那车我们都卖不起了。 而这些就相当于美股“七巨头”（Mag 7）。那么为什么有人花钱买电气化超级周期的 ETF，买到的却是“七巨头”，而没有触达那些真正在建设电网的人？ 首先，我打电话给安德鲁和乔，说：“别投资这些产品，因为它们太糟糕了，不过我有另一个想法。” 于是我从算法的第一步开始：质疑需求。整个 ETF 行业都是围绕第一个 ETF 建立起来的，也就是先锋领航（Vanguard），他们推出了标普 500 ETF。他们构建标普 500 是基于市值加权，所以大公司在该指数中获得更大的权重，小公司获得更小的权重。从那时起，几乎所有的 ETF 都是基于市值加权建立起来的。我的想法是，这在新兴产业中行不通。因为你可能会有一家大公司，比如 AI 超级周期中的英伟达，市值高达 4 万亿美元；你也可能有一家为这些 AI 数据中心提供全部光纤的小公司，却因为市值加权的方式在那个 ETF 中完全得不到曝光。 于是我开始给我所认识的、以及能被引荐给的 ETF 行业的每个人打电话，问道：“你们为什么都要用市值加权来构建这些 ETF？难道就没有别的方法吗？” 他们都说：“没有没有，行业就是这么做的。自从先锋领航以来，就一直是这么做的。”大家都这么做，这是唯一的做法。 我说：我实在不同意这种说法。我认为，如果我想让私募股权投资者获得利润敞口，我会拿出一座 AI 数据中心的建造清单，弄清楚是谁提供了光纤，谁提供了电力电子设备，谁提供了网络软件，谁提供了高带宽内存，然后我会根据他们对比如 AI 数据中心、对电网或对卫星的贡献度，来赋予 ETF 权重。直接采用这份建造清单——在制造业术语中，我们称之为物料清单（BOM）。 于是我们开始基于物料清单来构建 ETF。事实证明，在一个 AI 数据中心里，有 60 只股票提供了构成 AI 数据中心的所有部件——30 只国际股票，30 只本土股票。事实证明，提供电网基础设施的公司大约也是这个数量，提供国防基础设施、太空等领域的公司数量也差不多。 于是我们打造了一系列 ETF，它们是首批不基于市值加权、而是基于物料清单加权构建的 ETF。事实证明它相当优越，因为你让投资者接触到了这些利润。因此，我们拥有在市场上交易的表现第一的 AI 基础设施 ETF，我们拥有表现第一的电气化 ETF，我们刚刚发布了机器人和太空领域的 ETF。 所以，这是一个非常近期的非制造业案例，展示了你如何通过质疑需求起步，最终得出一个截然不同的产品构想，并发明出以前从未被发明过的东西，而且效果相当优异。因此，对于投资者来说，我们感觉非常好，因为一年前投入一美元的人，现在收益率达到了 158%。因为这是一种将利润池展现给投资者的更优越的方式。
Original English Yeah. So like I uh this is so crazy example this in in financial products. Uh so I was being interviewed on CNBC about two years ago about super cycles about how lucky we are to be alive right now. There's so many super cycles happening that make it a great time to be an investor. So if we live 100 years ago we got the industrial revolution. That's all we got. But we're alive today and we get AI, electrification, robotics, space, biotech, all this stuff happening at the same time. So, it's great time to be an investor. And uh the interview stops and Joe Kernan and Andrew Ourin turn to me and say, "How do we invest?" And I said, "Well, I'm sure there are thematic ETFs on each of these super cycles. I'll tell you what, I'll look at a few. I'll text you back some ideas." So, I get in the car to come across town from Times Square uh down to our office in the meat packing and I start to look at different exchange traded funds, ETFs. So, it turns out there are more ETFs than stocks traded. It's how people trade uh and invest these days. And so, I open up the largest electrification ETF and the top five holdings are Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, and Apple. And I looked at those, I'm like, those have nothing to do with electrification. There's none of that in the grid. There's none of that in an electric car. Uh we can't put a $20,000 chip Nvidia chip in a car. We couldn't afford to sell the car. And that's like the Mag 7. So why would somebody pay for an electrification supercycle ETF and get the Mag 7 and not get exposed to the people who are actually building the grid? Well, first of all, I called Andrew and Joe. said, "Don't invest in these products because they're terrible, but I have another idea." And so I started with the first step of the algorithm, which is question requirements. And the whole ETF business is built up around the first ETF, which was Vanguard, who had the S&P 500 ETF. And they did the AS&P 500 based on market cap weightings. So big companies get bigger weights in that index and small companies get smaller weights. And since that time, almost all ETFs have been built on a market cap weighted basis. My idea was that doesn't work for emerging industries because you might have one big company like Nvidia in the AI super cycle who's worth $4 trillion. You may have one little company that's providing all of the fiber to these AI data centers who gets no exposure in that ETF because of a market cap waiting approach. So, I started to call everybody I knew in the ETF industry and I could get introduced to and said, 'Wh do you build these ETFs with market cap weights? Isn't there another way? And they all said, "No, no, this is the way it's done. It's all it's been done this way since Vanguard." Uh, and so everybody does it this way. It's the only way you can do it. I'm like, I don't really agree with that. I think like if I wanted to give PE investors exposure to profits, I'd take the build sheet of an AI data center. I' I'd figure out who provides the fiber, who provides the power electronics, who provides the networking software, who provides the high bandwidth memory, and I would weight the ETF on their contribution to like the AI data center or their contribution to the grid or their contribution to the satellite. And so just take the build sheet in manufacturing terms, we call that the bill of material. So uh we started to build ETFs based on the bill of material. It turns out in an AI data center there are 60 stocks that provide all the stuff that go into an AI data center. 30 uh international 30 domestic. Turns out about the same number that provide the grid uh infrastructure about similar number provide the defense infrastructure space etc. So we built a series of ETFs that were the first not built on a market cap weighted basis but built on this bill of materials weighted basis and it turns out it's pretty superior because you're exposing the investor to these profits. So we have the number one performing AI infrastructure ETF that is traded on the market. We have the number one electrification. We just released robotics in space. So that's a really not recent non-manufacturing example of how you can start with questioning requirements and end up with a very different product idea and invent something that hasn't been invented before turns pretty superior. So like for investors we like I feel great because with somebody that invested a dollar a year ago is up 158%. Because this is a superior way of exposing profit pools to investors.
>> 当你尝试去精简某件事物时，你脑子里在想什么？ 我从算法的第一步开始，那就是：为什么——为什么它会以现在的样子呈现？进入其中的需求或基本假设究竟是什么
Original English >> What goes through your mind when you're trying to simplify something? I start with the first step of the algorithm which is why does why does this appear the way it appears? What are the requirements or base assumptions that have gone into this
产品？为什么它不能换个样子？于是我开始顺藤摸瓜。我通常不是带着一个它未来可能成为什么样的愿景开始的。我开始的方式是：我该怎么把现有的东西直接拆解开来。在这个过程中你开始——这是我从我祖父那里学到的东西。他开了一家汽车修理厂，他经常对我说：如果你不知道怎么修某样东西，如果你把它拆开，你可能就知道怎么修了。所以，这通常就是我处理问题的方式，就是我开始把它拆解开来。就像我爷爷教我做的那样。然后，一旦我深入其中，看清了哪些是关键部件，你就可以开始发问：这真的有必要存在吗？这个能不能以不同的方式运作？你就开始顺着线索去探寻什么样是可行的。
Original English product? Why couldn't it look different? And I start to pull the string from there. I often don't start with a vision of what it could be. I start with how would I just take apart what currently exists. Uh and in that process you start, this is something I learned from my grandfather. he had this auto repair shop and he would often say to me, if you don't know how to fix something, you will probably know how to fix it if you take it apart. So, that's typically the way I approach a problem is I start to take it apart. Um, like my grandpa taught me to do. And then, and then once I'm now into it and see what the critical parts are, then you can start to say, does this really need to exist? What could this work differently? And you just start to pull the string on what could work.
你觉得当你深入研究各种需求时，有多少比例的时间，它们可能曾经是被需要的，但现在不需要了，却甚至根本没人知道它们为什么还在那里？
Original English What percentage of the time do you think when you dive into requirements that maybe they once were needed but they're not needed but nobody even knows why they're there anymore?
你过去其实谈到过这个，就像我们以前把它比作一个花园。你种了一个花园，而在企业里，就像没人去给这些花园除草，所以杂草就这么长起来。所以花园是一个流程，杂草就这么长出来，而且后面没人拿着打草机去把它们除掉。偶尔会有主管说：“嗯，这完全坏掉了。我们拿着打草机去后面把它除掉吧。”但那种情况大概每五年、十年才发生一次。所以他想——他想建立一种文化，让我们经常拿出打草机。就像我们在审视当前的流程，并质疑我们为什么要做这件事。例如，他有一天来找我，他说：“我们用的是什么 CRM？”我说：“Salesforce。”
Original English You actually used to talk about this like we used to compare it to a garden. You plant a garden and in business like nobody goes out to weed these gardens and so weeds just grow. So the garden being a process and so weeds just grow up and nobody's back there with the weed whacker whacking them out. And every once in a while an executive will say, "Well, this is totally broken. Let's go back there with the weed whacker and whack it out." But that happens like once every five years, 10 years. And so he wanted to and he wanted to build a culture where we we had the weed whacker out a lot. Like we were looking at current process and questioning why we're doing it. And so like he an example of that is he came to me one day and he said, "What CRM do we use?" And I said, "Salesforce."
他说：“嗯，这是对增长征税。我们公司每增加一个席位，就要付一份订阅费。这是对增长征税。我们真的需要 Salesforce 吗？”
Original English He said, 'Well, it's a tax on growth. Every time we add a seat in this company, we pay a subscription. That's a tax on growth. Do we really need Salesforce?
这就是我每周都会从他那里遇到的那种典型问题，他就像在看着一个很久没除过草的花园，然后说：我就要拿着打草机进去，开始提问，比如：我们真的需要这个吗？我们能自己重新构建这个吗？我们能以不同的方式来处理这个吗？这绝对是特斯拉和 SpaceX 独特文化的一部分。
Original English And that was a typical like question I like the kind of question I would get from him on a weekly basis where he's like looking at a garden that hadn't been weeded in a long time and saying, I'm just going to take a weed whacker in there and start asking questions and like, do we really need this? Could we rebuild this ourselves? Uh could we approach this in a different way? And that is definitely part of the uniqueness of the culture of Tesla and SpaceX for sure.
### 离开特斯拉 >> 你是怎么知道该离开特斯拉了？
Original English >> How did you know it was time to leave Tesla?
>> 我的家人。他们对我进行了一次干预。值得称道的是，埃隆允许沃尔特在艾萨克森写埃隆的那本书里写他的心理健康困扰。而我就身处其中。而且在处理技术问题、处理制造问题、分销问题和品牌问题方面，我的技能包还可以，但我极度缺乏帮助有心理健康问题的人的能力。我就是没有这种技能。因此，在试图帮他度过那个相当艰难的时期时，我变得越来越焦虑，因为我帮不上我的朋友，而且我觉得自己完全起不到作用。而我的家人——我没有意识到那表现在了哪里。所以我的家人在圣诞假期把我叫坐下来，说：“嘿，听着，我们不——我们想给你立一面镜子。我们不喜欢你现在的样子。”
Original English >> My family. Uh they had a bit of an intervention with me. To his credit, Elon gave Walter permission to write about his mental health struggles in Isacson's book on Elon. And uh I was right in the thick of that. And um I I'm okay in terms of my skill set of handling technical problems and handling manufacturing problems and distribution problems and brand problems, but I'm I'm super illquipped to hand help somebody with mental health issues. Like I just don't have the skill set. And so in trying to help him through that period, which is pretty rough, I was becoming more and more stressed out because I wasn't able to help my friend. uh and wasn't effective, I felt like at all. And um and my family, I didn't realize how that was manifesting itself. So my family sat me down uh over the Christmas holidays and said, "Hey, look, we don't we want to hold a mirror up to you. We don't like who you're becoming."
>> 噢，比如你情绪化，你……
Original English >> Oh, like you're moody, you're
>> 我情绪化，我脾气不好，我性格暴躁。而我以为我把那些东西都掩盖住了，我把它分类隔开并控制住了。事实证明我没有，它正在外漏。所以就在那时我知道该走了，因为几周后我真真切切地和埃隆坐下来谈了，我说：“听着，我无法帮你解决这些问题。你需要一个能解决的人，而我做不到，但我——这对我产生了影响，现在是我该走的时候了。”这是一次艰难的谈话，但他确实需要一个寻求帮助的契机，而我也需要让自己脱离一个不健康的、相当不健康的境地。这算是我在工作或职业——职业生涯中唯一遇到过的这种情况。
Original English >> I'm moody. I'm mean, I'm I'm grumpy. Uh and I thought I was like masking all that stuff. I was con compartmentalizing it and containing it. Turned out I wasn't and it was leaking out. And so that's when I knew it was time to go because I literally sat down with Elon a few weeks later and said, "Look, I can't help you with these problems. Like, you need somebody who can and I can't, but I like this it's having an impact on me and it's time for me to now go." Uh, and um, it was a tough conversation to have, but he really did need a catalyst to get help and I needed to to get myself out of an unhealthy pretty unhealthy situation. Kind of the only situation I'd been like that in the work or professional in my professional life.
>> 那对你来说很难吗？对你来说感觉像是一次失败吗？
Original English >> Was that hard for you? Did it feel like a failure for you?
>> 感觉不像是一次失败。感觉像是我在放弃某样东西。我真的爱那家公司，爱那份工作。对我来说最难的部分是我爱那些人，我爱那份工作，但那种处境有点在摧毁我，我无法——那是促使我不得不做出离开这个艰难决定的原因，尽管它是那么艰难。它感觉不像失败。感觉像是我在离开一件对我真正意义重大的事情。事实证明确实如此，因为我喜欢身处那个环境中。我喜欢和那些我们会说正在一起做着“我们毕生最棒的工作”的人共事。幸运的是，那些队友中的许多人，我今天仍然有机会与他们共事。因此那些关系延续了下来，这非常好。当时我没有预见到这一点，但我非常高兴这些关系延续了下来。
Original English >> It didn't feel like a failure. It felt like I was giving up something. I I literally loved that company, loved that job. And uh that was the hardest part for me was I love the people, I love the job, but the situation was kind of killing me and I couldn't um that's what caused me to have to make the hard decision to leave as hard as it was. It didn't feel like a failure. It felt like I was leaving something that really meant a lot to me. And it turned out it did because I loved being in that environment. I loved working with people who were we would say we're doing the best work of our lives together. And um I luckily a lot of those uh same teammates are uh I get to work with today. Um so those relationships continued which was great. I didn't see that at the time but I'm super glad that they have.
### 领导风格与做真实的自己 >> 像埃隆和史蒂夫·乔布斯这样的人，身上有什么特质，能够让他们身边的所有人，或者至少他们身边的很多人，都说自己做出了毕生最棒的工作？说……
Original English >> What is it about some people like Elon and Steve Jobs that allows everybody around them or a lot of people around them at least to say that they do the best work of their lives. Say
>> 我认为这是他们给人们带来的挑战。就像我之前描述过的道格·菲尔德（Doug Field），他曾经有这么一句座右铭：历史是由不讲道理的人改变的。我会拿他开玩笑，因为他在为埃隆工作之前曾为乔布斯工作过。我当时就说：“伙计，你肯定是自讨苦吃。”他说：“不，历史是由不讲道理的人改变的。你想为这些人工作吗？他们对世界抱有不讲道理的看法，因为他们能激发身边人最好的一面。”他说：“我喜欢为能激发我最好一面的人工作。”而这两个人——这两个人都有这种特质。所以我认为这归结于他们给人们带来的挑战。所以，如果你在自己的专业领域非常出色，我认为你会希望被一个能给你带来巨大挑战的人指导和带领。于是你最终会说：“天哪，我都不知道自己内在有这种能力。我不知道自己能做到那一点。”然后你就会对你所追随的、给你提出那些挑战的领导者感到超级、超级满意。我记得当艾萨克森写史蒂夫·乔布斯的那本书出版时，我工作地方的所有人基本都读了那本书，然后开始在实际中认为那是通往……的钥匙。
Original English >> I think it's the challenges that they get like it's Doug Field who I described earlier used to have this mantra uh that history is changed by unreasonable men. And and I would tease him because he worked for Jobs before he worked for Elon. I was like, "Man, you must be a glutton for punishment." He's like, "No, history's changed by unreasonable men. Do you want to work for these people that just have an unreasonable view of the world because they bring out the best in the people around them?" And he's like, "I like working for people that bring out the best in me." And both of these both of these guys have. And so I think that comes to like just the challenge that they give people. And so like if you're really great at your craft, I think you want to be coached by, led by um somebody who is going to bring big challenges to you. So you you end up saying, "Geez, I I didn't know that I had that within me. Uh I didn't know I could do that." And then you feel super super good about the leader that you're uh that that you're following that's giving you those challenges. I remember when the Isacson book came out about Steve Jobs. Uh, everybody where I was working sort of read that and then started to be effectively thinking that was the key to
>> 成功的钥匙。
Original English >> to success.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 你见证过类似的事情吗？
Original English >> Do you witness any of that?
>> 见证过。我认为随着时间的推移，当你作为一名领导者变得成熟，你会意识到你必须用你自己真实的风格去领导，而不是别人的风格。当你开始模仿别人的风格时，就像那些模仿乔布斯的人，效果其实并不好，因为人们看得出那是不真实的，而且那也不契合你本身是谁。即使我是为埃隆这样一个大人物工作，我也不能去模仿那个。我不能——我那样就不会真实。人们是不会追随我的。我必须倚重我作为领导者的本色。我认为这极其重要。当人们开始去伪装那个时，往往就没有好结果。关于这一点，有一天晚上我问沃尔特，我们在他的新书巡回宣传的一站，我主持采访了他，那太棒了。我问：“要成功就必须做一个混蛋吗？”因为看了乔布斯的书，很明显那家伙是个大混蛋。你写过很多人，爱因斯坦还有其他人，都有点像是混蛋。他说：“不，你只是必须——你必须驾驭自己的风格。”他说：“你觉得萨提亚·纳德拉是个混蛋吗？”我说：“不，他不是。”他说：“你觉得他有成效吗？”我说：“是的，我认为他挺有成效的。”他说：“你是个混蛋吗？”我说：“希望不是。”他说：“在你的工作上你挺有成效的。”我说：“人们说我是。”他说——他说：“并不是说你必须做一个混蛋，而是你必须真实面对自己。”
Original English >> Yeah. I think over time as you mature as a leader, you realize you got to you got to lead with your own authentic style, not somebody else's. And when you start mimicking somebody's style, like the people mimicking jobs, doesn't really work well because people see it's inauthentic and it doesn't really work for who you are. And and even though I was working for a big personality like Elon, I couldn't like mimic that. I had to I wasn't going to be authentic. People weren't going to follow me. I had to lean into who I was as a leader. And um and I think that's super important. And when people start to fake that, uh it just doesn't go well. And to that point, like I asked Walter one night, we were at one of the stops on his book tour and I got to interview him, which was awesome. And I said, "Do you have to be an to be successful?" Like he jobs, you read this book and it's it's pretty clear the guy was big a-hole. You've written about a number of these people, Einstein and others who are kind of a-holes. And um he said, "No, you just have to like you you have to master your own style." He said, "Do you think Sachi Nadella is an asshole?" I said, "No, he's not." He said, "Do you think he's effective?" I said, "Yeah, I think he is." He's like, "Are you an asshole?" I said, "Hopefully not." He's like, "You're pretty effective at what you do." I said, "People tell me I am." He's And he said, "It's not that you have to be an It's you have to be authentic to who you are."
>> 你有一个练习，叫做“解雇你自己”。那是什么？带我了解一下。
Original English >> You have an exercise that you do called fire yourself. What is that? Walk me through it.
>> 我——其实那不是我发明的。该归功于谁就归功于谁。这来自
Original English >> I uh It's actually not mine. I got to give credit where credit's due. This came
### 换位思考与自我解雇 来自卡尔文·麦克唐纳（Calvin McDonald），他当时是 Lululemon 的首席执行官。他每年第一季度都会抽身离开一段时间，好让自己做好准备，打起精神迎接新的一年。当他一个人独处时，他会问自己一个问题：如果我明天被公交车撞了，或者被解雇了，我的继任者一接手就会立即着手去做的显而易见的事情有哪些？比如他们一进来，评估完情况就会说：“哦，这太显而易见了，必须做这个、这个和这个。”几乎就是马上行动。
Original English from Calvin McDonald who was uh who was the CEO of Lululemon at the time. And he asked himself he he would go away in the first quarter of every year to really kind of prepare and gird himself up for the year to come. And one of the questions he would ask himself when he went away by himself is if I was hit by a bus tomorrow or if I was fired, what are the immediately obvious things that my successor would do? Like they would come in, assess the situation and say, "Oh, this was obvious. Got to do this, this, and this." Like right away.
于是他会把那些事情列出来，比如我的继任者会怎么做？然后他就会反问自己：“那你为什么不做呢？”通常是因为其他事情看起来更重要；或者心存恐惧，担心这会是一个巨大的风险，或者可能行不通等等；再或者害怕做出改变，因为这意味着要换掉一些人，也许会让人失望等等。但他做了这个“解雇自己”的演练，这样他就能在开年第一个月回来时说：“你们知道吗？有三件事我们必须做，因为这些都是显而易见的。如果我被公交车撞了，就算没有我，你们也会去做这三件事。所以，我们就把它们搞定吧。”
Original English And so he would list out those things like what would my successor do? And then he would ask himself like, "Why aren't you doing this? And often times it was because other things seemed more important, was fearful uh that it could be a big risk or might not work, whatever. Uh he's fearful of making a change because he would be replacing people, maybe uh disappointing people, whatever. But he he did this fire yourself exercise so he could come back within the first month of the year and say, "You know what? here are three things we got to do cuz these are obvious and if I was hit by a bus there are three things that you guys would do without me. So like let's just get them done.
这对耐力和他的领导团队来说都是一次真正的刷新，能推动工作继续向前推进。而且这非常健康。所以，是的，我从卡尔文那里借鉴了这一点。
Original English And it was a real refresh uh for him and for his leadership team to kind of keep the ball moving downfield. Uh and it was super healthy. So yeah, I borrowed that from Calvin.
>> 你是 Lulu 的董事会成员。你提到了 Lulu，他们刚刚聘请了一位新首席执行官。
Original English >> You're on the board at Lulu. You mentioned Lulu who has just hired a new CEO.
### Lululemon 的选帅逻辑 >> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 跟我讲讲当时聘请那位首席执行官时的考量。我想董事会里有你这样一位运营背景的人，相比那些财务背景的人，视角应该会有所不同吧。
Original English >> walk me through when what went into the hiring that CEO. I would imagine that there's a difference having you on the board, an ops person versus financial people versus
是的。所以我们每个人都会带来不同的视角。海蒂·奥尼尔（Heidi O'Neill）是新任首席执行官。我们知道我们需要一个对产品有敏锐眼光的人，因为产品对每家公司来说都是核心，而对于一家服装公司来说当然更是重中之重；需要一个善于识别用人之道的人；需要一个懂得如何做大规模的人；并且结合 Lulu 的独特性，需要一个拥有垂直整合型企业工作经验的人。我这么说的意思是，Lulu 不仅自己设计产品、制造产品，还在自己的门店内销售产品。它不会通过批发模式在 Dick's Sporting Goods 或 Nordstrom 或其他任何商家那里分销销售。
Original English Yeah. And so we all bring a perspective and and Heidi O'Neal's the new CEO. We knew that we needed somebody who uh who had an eye for product because product is core to every company, but it's certainly core to an apparel company who had an eye for talent who had an eye for scaling and in the uniqueness of Lulu had an experience with a vertically integrated organization. And what I mean by that is Lulu not only designs its product and uh and manufactures its product, it sells its product in its own stores. Like it doesn't sell through a wholesale relationship through Dick Sporting Goods or Nordstrom or anybody else.
>> 所以这个人必须来自于一个拥有门店的领域，而门店是重度依赖运营的。
Original English >> So it's somebody that has come out of a world where you have stores which are deeply operational.
门店几乎就是一个微型工厂。每天有多少人进店？他们看到了什么？他们如何与产品互动，他们是否会购买？要让一家门店高效运转，背后有一整套运营科学。所以，我们需要一位既懂门店，又懂门店背后产品运转机制的领导者。海蒂这两方面都具备。因此，当我们坐下来挑选领导者时，我们设立了参数，明确了能让这位领导者取得成功所需的核心技能。然后，我们每个人从自己的视角对候选人进行面试。对我来说，我是一个懂得做大规模的现任高管。正如你所提到的，我们董事会里有懂财务的人，有懂技术的人，有懂产品和市场营销的人，大家从不同角度去评估候选人，但本质上我们要达成共识：嘿，关于这个人必须具备的四点特质是什么，为什么我们要聘请这个人，以及为什么我们要相信这个人正是引领这项业务翻开新篇章的合适人选。
Original English Stores are almost a mini factory. How many people come in on a daily basis? What do they see? How do they interact with the product and do they buy? And there's a whole operational science to how do you get a store to work really well? So, we needed a leader that understood stores and understood the product machine behind the stores. And Heidi had both of those. So, but as we sit down to select a leader, we put the parameters around here's what would make the core skills of this leader to be successful. And then we're interviewing candidates each from our perspective. for me as a sitting executive who scales. Uh we've got as you mentioned finance people, we've got tech people, we've got uh product and marketing people all around the board who are assessing the candidate from a bunch of different angles, but essentially we're agreeing, hey, here are the four things that need to be true about this person uh and why we're hiring this person and why we're going to have faith that this person is the right person for the next chapter of this business.
### 甄别顶尖人才与“实干家” 在面试某人考察其是否属于顶尖人才、世界级人才时，你的直觉判断依据是什么？
Original English What's your instant tell when you're you're interviewing somebody for sort of talent, worldclass talent?
>> 是他们对自己所描述内容的细节认知深度。
Original English >> It is their detailed understanding of what they're describing.
展开讲讲这一点，因为你要确保自己弄清楚的是：这件事到底是不是他们亲手干的，或者他们平时是否亲自动手干活？如果他们有深刻的理解，他们就能在这里把工作做成，并在这里以这种方式去领导。但如果他们是在把别人的工作成果揽到自己头上，一旦你开始深入探究“告诉我你是怎么做到的”、“告诉我你是如何拆解这个问题的”、“告诉我解决方案是什么”、“告诉我你在这个解决方案中扮演了什么角色”，情况很快就会一目了然。这是最初的线索，能让你看出自己是在和一个真正的实干家对话，还是在和一个只做表面文案工作的人对话。我肯定是在寻找那些实干家。
Original English Go deeper on that because the thing you want to make sure that you're understanding is did they did did they do or do they do the work? If they have a deep understanding, they're going to be able to do that work here and lead that way here. But if they're claiming responsibility for somebody else's work, it becomes evident really quickly when you start to dive into tell me how you did that. Tell me how you broke this problem down. Uh tell me what the solution was. Tell me what your role in that solution was. And that's the first clue that you're talking to somebody who is actually a practitioner versus maybe a paper pusher. Uh and I'm definitely looking for the practitioners.
>> 你在特斯拉花了很多时间面试候选人。你是他们最终面试的面试官之一——
Original English >> You spent a lot of time at Tesla interviewing people. you were one of the final interviews for
>> 我有 40% 的时间都花在面试上，因为在任何企业中，尤其是在高增长的企业中，人才是制胜的关键。所以你必须真正全身心投入到人才选拔中。
Original English >> 40% of my time was interviewing cuz in in any business, especially in a high growth business, talent wins. And so you got to be really devoted to talent selection.
而且这一点在商业之外也同样适用。它适用于艺术领域，也适用于体育领域。团队中最优秀的管理者都是非常出色的人才选拔者，他们会把顶尖人才同时放到赛场、球场或场地上。我认为，在成长型企业中，领导者的首要职责之一就是人才选拔——设定门槛，并且吸引符合该门槛的人才加入组织并产生影响。
Original English And uh this works again outside of business. It works in the arts, it works in sports. The best executives of teams are really great talent selectors and they put great talent on the floor or on the pitch or the field at the same time. And that in a growth business I feel like is one of the primary responsibilities of the leader is the is talent selection setting the bar and then also attracting the talent uh that meets that bar to come into the org and make a difference.
### 特斯拉的终面与文化烙印 >> 很多时候当人们做终面时，如果某人此前已经通过了四到五轮面试，终面往往更像是一种走过场的盖章确认，或者做一次文化契合度测试，但我感觉你不是那种风格。你的终面是什么样的？
Original English >> So a lot of times when people do that there's a final interview and somebody's gone through four or five interviews before then it's kind of a rubber stamp or a culture check or I don't get that that vibe with you. What was that interview like?
终面是这样的，正如你所说，他们已经经历了多轮面试来证明自己是世界级的。因此，在很多情况下，我可能会想对这一点进行再次深挖，并亲自去了解：团队为什么认为这个人是世界级的？我想弄明白这一点。所以面试的前半部分，我真的会深入考察：他们是否是世界级的？他们是否有这样的经验？他们是否亲历亲为？他们是否具备那种有助于他们成为高效领导者的细节导向特质？如果他们通过了这一关，那么我们就转入面试的后半部分，也就是：好的，现在我必须进行文化烙印。
Original English the final interview is they to your point they've been through multiple interviews to prove they're world class. Uh and so I probably if in some in a lot of cases I want to do a double click on that and understand that for myself like why why did the team believe this person is world class? I want to I want to understand that. So I spend first half of the interview really diving deep into are they world class? Do they have this experience? Do they do the work? Do they have this detail orientation that's going to help them be an effective leader? Then if they check that box, then we flip to the second half of the interview, which is okay, now I have to do cultural imprinting.
我所说的文化烙印是指，每个创业者都在纠结：嘿，随着公司的成长，我们如何守护我们的文化？我从埃隆那里学到的技巧之一就是，通过做这个终面，你在每个人身上打下文化烙印，向他们解释：这里的文化是如何运作的；在这里取得成功的硬通货是什么；取得成功的人具备哪些特质；以及我们在这一岗位上对你的期望是什么。
Original English And what I mean by that is like every entrepreneur struggles with, hey, as we grow, how do we preserve our culture? And one of the hacks that I learned from Elon was that, oh, you do this final interview where you're cultural imprinting on everybody and you're explaining to them, here's how the culture works. Here's the currency of success here. Uh, and here's the attributes of people who are successful and here's what we expect from you in this role.
这种文化烙印就是终面存在的原因，因为作为领导者，这是你与这个人互动的唯一机会，入职之后根据职位的不同，你可能不会经常见到他们。但你至少希望他们掌握成功的解密秘诀，向他们描述在这里取得成功是什么样子的。所以，如果你以这种方式行事，如果你以这种方式交付，你就会在这里取得成功，我们肯定还会再次打交道。这是我期望你表现出的行为，也是无论你在哪个团队、你的主管对你的期望。这就是终面的目的——打下文化烙印。当时我们的人数正从 4,000 人扩大到 40,000 人，我们给许多经理及以上级别的员工做了大量终面，来进行这种文化烙印。
Original English And that cultural imprinting is the reason for the last interview because it's your one chance as a leader to interact with this person who you may not see all that often after they're hired depending on their position. But you at least want them to have the secret decoder ring to success and to describe here's what success looks like here. So if you behave this way, if you deliver this way, you're going to be successful here and we're going to see each other again for sure. um and this is a behavior that I'm going to expect from you and that your whoever what team you're working on or that leader is going to expect from you. That is the purpose of the final interview uh is to do that cultural imprinting. And so we were growing from 4,000 to 40,000 people. We were doing a lot of final interviews of managers and above doing that cultural imprinting.
### 建立信任与清晰沟通 >> 如果我明天作为你的直接下属开始为你工作，我问你我们该如何建立信任？你会怎么回答？
Original English >> If I started working for you tomorrow as one of your direct reports and I asked you how do we build trust? What would be your answer to that?
我们需要以清晰的方式沟通。所以我会说，在这里通行的硬通货之一就是把事情做成。
Original English We need to communicate with clarity. Uh and so I would say like one of the currencies here is getting things done.
因此我们的“说”与“做”的比例有点颠倒。但当我们确实开口沟通时，我们是简练的、明确的、基于事实的。如果我们有诉求，就直接摆出来。因为如果有人心存想法，却在巧言掩饰其意图，那是极其令人沮丧的。我宁愿你坦诚、直白。所以这就是我们会开展的那种讨论。昨天我和团队的一位成员讨论过。他们在关乎自身的一个问题上有点兜圈子，我说：“嘿，你的诉求到底是什么？直接告诉我你的诉求是什么，这样我们才能进行真正的讨论。”但就目前而言，我觉得我们有点在回避核心问题
Original English And so our talk do ratios are kind of inverted. But when we do talk, we're concise, we're clear, we're factual. If we have an agenda, we just put that out. Uh because it's super frustrating if somebody has an agenda and they're sort of cleverly trying to hide that agenda. I would just rather you be frank and clear. So that's the kind of discussion we would have. I was having a discussion with a member of our team yesterday. They were kind of beating around the bush on an issue that really mattered to them and I said, "Hey, just what's your ask? Just tell me what your ask is because then we can have a real discussion." But right now, I feel like we're kind of dancing around
……这是一个我确实不理解的问题。你能给我明确的解释吗？所以我经常会对别人说：“如果我们打算共事，你能给我最好的礼物就是明确。如果我搞砸了，直接明确指出来。如果你看到了机会，也请明确说出来。直接给出清晰明确的信息，这再次意味着你必须停下来，简化内容以做到简练，并对你希望从那次谈话中得到什么极其明确。”
Original English an issue that I really don't understand. Can you give me clarity? And so often I'll say to somebody like, "If we're going to work together, the best gift you can give me is clarity. If I'm messing up, just be really clear about it. If you see an opportunity, be really clear about it. Uh just give clarity, which means again, you got to stop, simplify to be concise, and be really super clear about what it is that you want out of that conversation.
### 一次深刻的领导力挫折 >> 你能跟我讲讲一次你在对你非常重要的事情上失败的经历吗？
Original English >> Can you walk me through a time you failed at something that mattered a lot to you?
>> 哎呀，好的。我在脑子里筛选可以讲给你的众多例子。曾经有一家初创公司，这是我的第二家公司。我和之前工作中的同事一起创办了这家公司，包括我的老板。那个人……他是个非常棒的人。他比我大10岁，个性非常强势。我为这项业务撰写了商业计划书。我对通过有机方式拓展这家公司有一套设想，而他对通过并购来拓展公司有一套设想，也就是通过非有机方式进行拓展。我们创办了公司，但并没有调和这种策略和方法上的分歧。
Original English >> Oh jeez. Yeah. Trying to like sort through the many examples I could give you. There was a a a startup. This is my second company. and and I'd formed this company with people that I'd worked with in my prior job, including my boss. And the guy was he's a great guy. He's 10 years older than me, very strong personality. And I had written the business plan for this business. And I had a vision for growing this company organically. And he had a vision for growing the company through M&A and so growing it inorganically. and we started the company and we didn't reconcile that difference of in strategy and approach.
部分原因在于我当时太年轻了。我那时26岁，27岁。我确实还没有学会如何去沟通和解决棘手的问题，所以这一点我归咎于自己。但我们在公司最初的两三年里，就任由那种冲突不受控制地发展。幸运的是，我们各自都取得了成功：我在有机增长方面，他在并购方面，而且公司也在壮大。因此从外部来看，这像是一次巨大的成功，而且确实是一个非常成功的结果。
Original English And part of it was because I was just young. I was 26 at the time, 27. And I really hadn't learned how to how to communicate and resolve difficult issues. And so I'd lay that on me. But we let that conflict just sort of grow unchecked for the first two three years of the business. And luckily we were each having success. Me and the organic side, him on the M&A side and the company was growing. So from the outside in it looked like a huge success and it was a very successful outcome.
但公司里的员工夹在这两种相互争斗的公司愿景之间，他们始终清楚这一点。那种紧张气氛一直存在，而我们从未真正为他们解决过这一矛盾。当我们把公司卖掉时，我记得对投资人来说这是一个极佳的结果，我记得当时跟团队里的几位核心人员交谈，他们说：“我只是太庆幸这一切终于结束了。”
Original English But the people in the company were caught in between these two battling visions of the company and they knew it all the time. and the tension was on all the time and we never really reconciled that for them. When we sold the business, I remember like it was a great outcome for investors and I remember talking to a few of the key people that were on the team and they're like, "I'm just so relieved that this is over."
大家并没有像我们共同跨过终点线、迎来一场全员胜利那样去庆祝，而是说：“你们作为领导者太糟糕了，因为你们从未调和两种截然对立的观点。你们就任由那种紧张气氛在组织内部滋生。结果就是有些人选边站队，有些人一直在内耗争吵，你们俩也一直在对抗。”我对此真的非常遗憾。这是我再也不想卷入其中的局面。显然，在那家公司上你不可能重来一次，但我试图在后续的公司里打破这种模式，因为我觉得那是我自己实实在在的领导力失败，而且是我明知存在的问题。我不能把它归咎于缺乏经验和年轻，因为我当时知道它的存在，我原本或许能够更好地找到化解并直面它的方法，但我们当时没有去做。
Original English And instead of celebrating like we were all having a win hitting the finish line together, people are like, "You guys were terrible as leaders because you never reconciled two very opposing views." And you just let that tension blossom within the org. And the result was some people chose sides, some people were battling all the time, you guys were battling. And uh and I really regret that. like it was it was something that I never wanted to be a part of again. And uh and yeah, obviously you don't go you don't get a redo on that company, but I've tried to like I've tried to break that pattern in in companies cuz I felt like that was a real leadership failure on my part that I I knew was there. I can't blame it on on being inexperienced and young because I knew it was there and I probably could have better figured out the tools to reconcile that um and confront it, but we didn't.
### 推荐的商业书籍 >> 你最常送给别人的三本商业书籍是什么？你从每本书中汲取的一点经验是什么？
Original English >> What are the the top three business books that you give away to other people and what's one lesson you take from each of them?
>> 我推荐最持久的三本书：如果你想了解运营原则，比如领导运营，是一本叫作《目标》（The Goal）的书，作者是麻省理工学院教授艾利·高德拉特（Eli Goldratt）。就是那本书，彻底改变了我的人生。第二本书，如果你想过有价值的人生，史蒂芬·柯维（Stephen Covey）的那本老书《高效能人士的七个习惯》（The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People）对我产生了极大的影响。然后第三本是我过去几年读过的，威尔·圭达拉（Will Guidara）写的《非凡待客之道》（Unreasonable Hospitality）。我认为它适用于每一家企业，几乎适用于每一种人生。如果人生的每个方面，你能让坐在你对面的人感受到待客之道，并通过这种待客之道感受到尊严，那是极其强大的。比如如果你让客户有这种感受，你会卖出很多产品。所以我把这本关于经营餐厅的书递给别人时，大家会说：“什么？我是做生意的。你为什么给我这本书？”我说：“你读完就会明白的。”所以这三本可能就是对我影响深远、我会转赠给别人的书。
Original English The top three books that I've recommended most consistently are a book called the goal which is by Ellie Golrat who's an MIT professor if you want to learn about operations principles like leading operations. So it's that book like totally changed my life. Second book is if you want to live a life worth living. Uh Steve Steve Cubby's old book the seven habits of highly effective people really impacted me. Uh and then the third book that I've read over the past couple years is unreasonable hospitality by Will Guerrera. I think it applies to every business almost applies to every life. If every aspect of life, if you make the person across from you feel hospitality and dignity through that hospitality, it's powerful. Like if you make customers feel that way, you're going to sell a lot of product. And so I hand people this book on running a restaurant and people are like, "What? I'm in business. Why you handing me this book?" I'm like, "You'll get it once you read it." So those are the three that I probably that have affected me uh significantly that I pass along to others.
### 纵向与横向导师 >> 你能详细展开谈谈“纵向导师”和“横向导师”的概念吗？
Original English Can you double click on the concept of vertical and horizontal mentors?
>> 好的。我觉得当人们问我“职业生涯中最大的捷径是什么”时，我脑海中浮现的第一件事就是导师，因为导师是极大的加速器，是一种不公平的竞争优势。以我的经验，有两种导师：一种是纵向导师，意思是走在前面探过路的人。他们可能比你年长一代，是更资深的领导者。他们以前“看过这部电影”。所以当你去找他们说：“嘿，我遇到了这种问题。你见过这种情况吗？”他们会说：“噢，是的。我看过那部电影。让我来指导你度过这个难关。”
Original English >> Yeah, I think when people ask me like what what's the great hack of a career? The first thing I that comes to mind for me is mentors because mentors are such a accelerator unfair advantage. In my experience, there's two kinds of mentors. There's a vertical mentor uh which means somebody has been down the path ahead of you. They're maybe a generation ahead of you. They're an older leader. They've seen they've seen the movie before. And so when you come to them and say, "Hey, I'm like dealing with this. Have you seen this?" They're like, "Oh, yeah. I've seen that movie. Let me let me help coach you through this."
然后还有横向导师，我发现他们同样有价值，他们是正在经历与你相同境遇、相同挑战的同行。如果他们处于类似的处境中效果最好。因此随着时间的推移，我会建立由处于相似业务、相似规模、相似增长率的同行组成的小组，这样我们就有一组共同面临的难题。对于这些导师，情况有所不同——我们谁都没看过这部电影。但当你从侧面视角去审视别人的商业挑战时，你往往也是在教导自己。所以我们每季度会聚在一起一天半或两天，摆出我们面临的最大难题。完全遵守查塔姆研究所规则（Chatham House Rule），任何人不得外传，完全保密。
Original English Then there's horizontal mentors, which I found to be equally valuable, and those are peers that are going through the same stuff you are, the same challenges. Um, it's best if they're in a similar situation. So uh I would build over time groups that were in similar businesses, similar size, similar growth rates so that we had a common set of problems. And with those mentors, it's different like we none of us have seen the movie before. But you when you look kind of at a side angle through to somebody else's business challenge, you often are teaching yourself is and so we would get together on a quarterly basis for a day and a half or two days, lay out the biggest problem we were facing. Total Chattam House rules, nobody, it's total confidentiality.
我发现那五六个人完全可以帮我换个角度看待问题，因为他们是从侧面角度在看，而我则是迎头直视它。所以将那样的横向导师与纵向导师结合起来至关重要。如果可以的话，你的人生中需要始终兼备这两者，这绝对是一个超级捷径。
Original English And I found that those five or six people could totally help me work see a problem differently because they were looking at it through a side angle um where I was looking at it head-on. And so the combination of horizontal mentors like that and vertical mentors are super important. So you need to have both in your life constantly if you can and it's a total hack.
>> 怎样才算一个好的纵向导师？
Original English >> What makes for a good vertical mentor?
>> 我脑海中浮现的……我有过三位极其优秀的纵向导师：一位叫斯科特·波特（Scott Porter），他是我的第一任老板；一位叫弗雷德·梅森（Fred Mason），他曾掌管全球最大的制造企业之一；还有一位是因图特（Intuit）的创始人斯科特·库克（Scott Cook）。这三个人都是令人难以置信的老师。我提到的第二位弗雷德，曾反复对我说过：当你成为一名真正优秀的领导者时，其中一个标志就是你已经成了一位非常出色的老师。
Original English >> I think the ones that come to mind so I've had three excellent vertical mentors. a guy named Scott Porter who's my first boss, guy named Fred Mason who ran one of the largest manufacturing businesses in the world and uh and Scott Cook who was the founder of in it. All three of those individuals are unbelievable teachers. And Fred, the second one I mentioned, would tell me over and over again like when you become a really good leader, one of the signs of that is you've become a very good teacher.
>> 因为你在成倍放大你的技能组合、你的洞察、你的方法，不管那是什么。
Original English >> Because you're multiplying your skill set, your insight, your method, whatever that is.
>> 弗雷德对我来说是一位好老师，斯科特对我来说也是一位了不起的老师。我认为那类导师的不同之处就在于，他们是非常有耐心的老师。
Original English And Fred was a great teacher to me and Scott is an unbelievable teacher to me. Uh and uh and I think that's the difference in that kind of mentoring is they're just super patient teachers.
>> 斯科特是因图特的，对吧？
Original English >> Scott's into it, right?
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
>> 他教了你什么？
Original English >> What has he taught you?
>> 我一直非常渴望在产品开发上做得更好。于是我去参加了斯科特的一次交流。我们经常要么在他家见面，要么一起骑自行车。一天早上骑车时我问他，我说：“你能向我解释一下你是如何运作产品开发和产品管理的吗？”他说：“可以，等到了我家我给你讲。”最后我们到了他家，他向我描述了他所使用的一套被称为“跟我回家”（Follow Me Home）的工具集。
Original English >> I really want to constantly I want to get better product development. And so I came to a session with Scott. We would often either meet at his house or we do bike rides together. And one morning I asked him on a bike ride. and I said, "Can you explain how you run product development, product management to me?" He's like, "Yeah, I'll do that when we get to my house." So, we eventually get to his house and he describes this tool set to me that he uses called Follow Me Home.
这项工具有两个部分，但他用到的其中一个，是把产品的实际用户请进会议室，那些用户坐在会议桌旁，而在会议室四周、桌子外圈，管理团队坐着旁观他做这项练习。大体上就是他走到白板前说：“你们认为关于这款产品我们需要改进的三件事是什么？”于是大家每个人都列出各自的三件事。在白板的另一半，他问：“有哪三件把你们逼疯、你们希望我们的产品具备但目前还不具备的事情？”也就是三项纠错，三项新增。然后他对他们说，看着这整份清单，他说：“好了，你们每人有五票。你们可以把票全投在同一件事上，也可以分散开投，去白板前投票吧。”
Original English And uh and there's two parts of the tool, but one that he uses is that he brings actual users of the product into a conference room where those users sit at the table and on the uh walls of the conference room external to the table, the management team sits and they watch him do this exercise. So basically he goes to the whiteboard and says, "What are the three things that you think we need to fix about this product?" And so people, each one of them lists their three things. And the second half of the whiteboard, he's like, "What are the three things that drive you crazy that you wish our product had, but it doesn't have today?" So three corrections, three builds. And then he says to them, he goes, "This full list." And he says, "Okay, you get five votes. You can stack them all in one thing. You can spread them out, but go to the whiteboard and vote."
他说：“每次你做这个练习，奇迹就会发生。所有人都会投给同样的事情。事情会变得极度清晰。你最终会得出必须去做的三件事，因为所有的票不是分散在那60件事上，而是集中在这三件事上。”他还说：“奇迹在于管理团队身处其中，他们能感受到客户因为受挫或想要某个功能而产生的同理与情绪，产品路线图随之变得无比清晰。”
Original English And he said, "A miracle happens every time you do this exercise. Everybody votes for the same things. It becomes ultra clear. You emerge with the three things you need to do because all the votes are on not on the 60 things, but on the three things." And he says, 'The miracle is the management team is in there and they get the emotion and energy of the customer who's frustrated or wants this or whatever and the product roadmap becomes absolutely clear.
当时我的反应是：Scott，这太棒了。那时我正从特斯拉转去Lyft。所以我记得自己和Lyft的一位关键领导Woody Hartman坐下来——他后来一直担任Lime的COO——我对他说：“你能和司机做这个练习吗？我们能办一场这样的演练吗？我们能把司机请进屋里，弄清楚关于我们的产品，到底什么必须成真吗？”我记得Woody和他的团队进行了这项演练，也就是Scott教给我们的“Follow Me Home”练习，对象是我们的司机团队。他们得出了极具远见的洞察，指引了Lyft大约一年的产品路线图。我记得Woody从那场会议出来时说：“这太简单了。我都难以置信。”我说：“是啊，你真得感谢Scott Cook。”他真的是在某天早晨花20分钟教会了我这个，而且极度有效。所以这就是你可以从垂直导师那里学到的东西的一个例子，我是从Scott那里得到的。这完全帮助我成为了一个高效得多的产品领导者。
Original English And I was like, Scott, that is brilliant. And I was uh transitioning from Tesla to Lyft at the time. And so I remember sitting down with a key leader at Lyft, Woody Hartman, who has been the COO at Lime uh uh since then and said, "Can you do this with drivers? Can we run one of these exercises? Can we get drivers in the room and figure out what would what needs to be true about our product?" And so I remember Woody and his team ran this exercise, the Scots Follow Me Home exercise with uh with our driver team. And they came they came with these brilliant insights that led the product roadmap for Lyft for about a year. And I remember Woody coming out of that session. He's like, "This was so simple. I can't believe it." And I was like, "Yeah, you just got to thank Scott Cook." Like he taught me this literally in 20 minutes one morning and it's ultra effective. So it's example of like one of the things you can get from a vertical mentor and I got that from Scott. Uh and it's completely helped me be a much more effective product leader.
>> 真是个不可思议的想法。谢谢你。
Original English >> That's an incredible idea. Thank you.
>> 完全如此。非常简单。是的。
Original English >> Totally. Super simple. Yeah.
>> 是的。
Original English >> Yeah.
### Lyft时期的经验与教训 >> 你曾在Lyft工作。在一段为期18个月的时间里，你担任COO。我很好奇你从那段经历中汲取了哪些教训。
Original English >> You were at Lift. You're the COO during a 18-month period. I'm curious what lessons you took away from that experience.
>> 我觉得有很多。那是一个非常独特、特殊的时刻，因为你面对的竞争对手Uber拥有80%的市场份额，而Lyft只有20%。并且我刚到那里，正赶上“Delete Uber”事件。Uber的CEO彻底激怒了客户群，大家都在寻找替代方案，而我们幸运地被定位为一个友善且值得信赖的品牌，所以通过团队非常出色的执行力，我们得以将市场份额翻倍。具体怎么做原本并不显而易见，但我们弄明白了。我们将市场份额翻倍，并将收入翻倍，随后成功推动公司上市。
Original English >> I think a lot. It was a really unique special moment in time in that we had you had a competitor Uber who was 80% of the market share and Lyft who was 20 and uh I had arrived right in time for a delete Uber. So the CEO of Uber had totally offended the customer base and people were looking for an alternative and and so we were luckily positioned as the nice brand and the trusted brand and so we were able to double market share with some really good execution on the team. This wasn't obvious how to do it but we figured out how to do it. We doubled market share and doubled revenue and then we're able to take the company public.
所以我认为那段Lyft时期给我的教训是：产品定位极其重要，尤其是以积极的方式针对市场中的其他替代品进行差异化产品定位，非常关键。第二个教训具体来自网约车，但也可以更广泛地应用：Lyft和Uber在早期就开始打价格战。
Original English So I think the lessons from that lift era for me are product positioning super important uh and especially product positioning counter to the other alternatives in the market in a positive way. Super important. Second lesson of ride share specifically, but then can be applied more generally is Lyft and Uber began early on to compete on price.
>> 任何在价格上竞争的企业，最终都被称为大宗商品。生产商A、B或C生产的铜真的没有任何区别。他们靠价格竞争。
Original English >> And any business that competes on price ultimately is called a commodity. There's no difference between a copper really from producer A, B, or C. They compete on price.
世界上没有任何品牌定位能让你免受其害。因此，一旦你在大宗商品市场中竞争，你就失去了获取超额收益的基础，你的利润率就会崩溃。
Original English And uh and no brand positioning in the world is going to save you from that. And so once you're competing in a commodity market, now you have no basis from which to collect rents and so your profit margins collapse.
>> 不仅如此，他们都在车上贴了标志贴纸。他们基本上是告诉顾客：这两个产品是可以互换的。
Original English >> Well, not only that, they both had stickers on cars. They basically told customers the products are interchangeable.
>> 没错。而且应用也是可以互换的——他们告诉司机应用是可以互换的。车上的标识，你说得对，那些贴纸告诉顾客这是可以互换的。所以到头来唯一重要的就是价格。因此我从网约车行业得到的教训之一就是：要非常非常非常非常抗拒在价格上竞争。一旦你开始在价格和促销上做文章，你就正在改变产品和品牌的整个本质。
Original English >> Exactly. And the apps are interchange they told the drivers the apps are interchangeable. The the markings on the car, you're right, with the stickers told the customer that they it was interchangeable. And so all that mattered was price. And uh and so one of my lessons from the ride share industry is be very very very very resistant to competing on price. When you start on price and promotion, you're you're changing the whole nature of the product and the brand.
>> 如果你能回到过去并做出一个不同的决定——你在那里时做出的、本可以大幅改变未来的决定——那会是什么？
Original English >> If you could go back and make one decision differently that you were there, that would have massively altered the future.
我真的尝试过去拍桌子试图说服创始人们，比如我们必须这样做：如果我们能在这里树立起卓越的品牌定位，我们就能获得更高的经济效益。但到了那个时候，他们已经陷入价格竞争模式好几年了，想让他们看清这一点根本不可能。但如果我有魔法粉末，我会改变市场中的竞争格局，这样你就能拥有一家能赚钱的企业。在那个时点上，两家公司按毛利率计算都不赚钱，因为他们为了竞争而在产品定价上过低。这简直是疯狂。
Original English really tried to pound on the table to to to convince the founders like we have to if we create a brand position here this superior we'll be able to command superior economics but by that time they they were multiple years already into the price competition mode and getting them to see that wasn't it just wasn't possible but if I could if I had magic dust I'd change the dynamics of the competition in the market uh so that you could have a business that made money. At that point, neither company was making money on a gross margin basis because they were underpricing the product to compete. That's just insanity.
### 董事会角色与神秘顾客调查 作为董事会成员，你是什么风格？
Original English What are you like as a board member?
因为在我的整个职业生涯成长过程中，我一直扮演着CEO的角色。我是一个非常以CEO为导向的董事会成员，我希望能提供帮助、派上用场，并成为那位CEO的共鸣板。所以我会对他们说：如果你需要我付诸行动，你可以随时调动我。比如如果你想让我去跟你们的工程团队碰面，参与到产品的反馈循环中，我愿意亲自去试用产品。当然，我也承担着董事会成员对股东所背负的受信责任。这是我的首要考量：如果我能赋能于CEO并提供帮助，我们就能建立起反映在股价上的企业价值。这就是我把这两者结合起来的方式。
Original English Because I'm I've grown up my entire career has been a CEO. I'm a very CEO oriented board member where I want to be helpful and useful and be a sounding board to that CEO. And so I'd say to them like if you need to call me into action, you can call me into action. Like if you want to meet me meet with your engineering teams and be a part of the feedback loop on your product, I want to eat the dog food. Of course, I carry the fiduciary responsibility that a board member carries to the shareholder. Um, and that's my primary thought. Like if if if I'm building into the CEO and being helpful, we're going to build enterprise value that's going to be reflected in the stock price. And so that's how I reconcile those two things together.
>> 没有多少董事会成员会去暗访暗查。为什么？你为什么这么做？你从中得到了什么？
Original English >> Not a lot of board members do mystery shopping. Why? Why do you do that? What do you get out of that?
>> 因为我能了解到底正在发生什么。
Original English >> Because I get what's really happening.
>> 当你走进一家Lululemon时，你都问大家什么？
Original English >> What do you ask people when you're when you go into a Lululemon?
>> 你看，我现在把它精简到了一个问题。比如：如果你拥有这家店的钥匙，你当一天的CEO，而且你只能做一件事，你会做什么？当你问这个问题时，你不会得到500个不同的答案。你通常会得到一组相当集中的问题，因为人们必须深思熟虑。他们是CEO，他们只能做一件事。但这并不需要他们花很长时间去想出：“哦，我会做这个，我会做这个，我会做这个。”这就是我问的问题。然后我把这些带回给CEO。我说，好的，我过去几周在你们的门店里，我问了这个挑明的问题，以下是收到的反馈。这可能有效也可能无效，但希望这是一个你能用得上的输入。
Original English >> See, like I've now refined it down to one question. Like if you had the keys to the place, you were the CEO for a day and you could only do one thing, what would you do? And you don't get like 500 different answers when you ask that question. you typically get a pretty tight set of issues because people have to be thoughtful about it. They they're the CEO. They can only do one thing. Um but it doesn't take them long to come up with, oh, I would do this. I would do this. I would do this. And that's the question I ask. And then I bring that back to the CEO. I say, okay, like I was in your stores the past couple of weeks. I ask the question, here's what came back. This may or may not be valid, but hopefully it's an input you can use.
### DVX的创业方法论 在DVX，你们创造了一种创办公司的方法，几乎就像是一套框架。那是什么？它是什么样的？
Original English At DVX, you've created a method for starting companies, like almost like a framework for it. What What is that? What does it look like?
>> 这是随着时间推移发展起来的。在我们真正开始认真对待一个想法之前，我们希望有五件事在它身上成立。第一，存在一个庞大的可寻址市场，有一个庞大的TAM。我们通过大量的客户访谈来确认这一点。所以这并不是我们从行业报告或凭空捏造出来的数字。我们实实在在地给客户打电话问：如果有这样的东西存在，你会买吗？你愿意为此付多少钱？所以这是第一件事：存在可寻址市场。
Original English >> This has been developed over time. We want five things to be true about an idea before we really start to take it seriously. Uh number one is there's a big addressable market. There's a big TAM. And uh we we confirm that with a bunch of customer interviews. So it's not like we're pulling numbers out of studies or thin air. We're literally calling customers and saying if something like like this existed would you buy it and what would you pay for it? So that's thing one there's a addressable market.
第二件事是，该业务的毛利率要超过50%。作为一个团队，我们经历过高毛利的软件业务，也经历过低毛利的业务，比如网约车和汽车制造。我们热爱那些业务，但靠那种方式维持生计很艰难。所以，我们更倾向于拥有软件类型的毛利率。因此，第二件必须成立的事是软件类型的毛利率。
Original English Thing two is uh there's a gross margin that is north of 50% in the business. We've as a team have spent time in high margin software businesses and low margin businesses like rid share and car manufacturing and we love those businesses but it's a hard way to make a living. So, so we'd much rather have software type margins. So, second thing has to be true is software type margins.
第三件必须成立的事是，这个机会之所以存在，是因为有一个尚未被解决的极其棘手的技术难题。如果我们解决了它，就可能建立起护城河。如果这也是真的，那我们就进入第四件事：这个领域的竞争格局是怎样的？在这个方面我们有点逆向思维。我们不想去大家都涌入的地方。我们不想成为第26个法律AI平台。
Original English Third thing that has to be true is the the reason this opportunity exists is because there's a really hard technical problem that hasn't been solved. And if we solve it, it could create a moat. So, if that's true, then we're on to thing four, which is what's the competitive dynamic in the space? And this is where we're a bit contrarian. We don't want to go where everybody else is going. So, we don't want to be like the 26th legal AI platform.
>> 与已经在那里的26家激烈角逐，它们已经在那个领域为产品定位展开争夺。我们宁可成为第一家进入供应链优化软件领域的公司，或者为小型企业做网络安全。事实证明，那个行业里的人并不多。最后一件必须成立的事是：这个领域是否存在流动性倾向？在某些市场中，人们就是——这个领域没有流动性。人们不想持有这类公司。如果这五件事都成立，那就能帮我们筛选想法。这样的话我们就有……
Original English >> Uh competing it out with 26 that are already in there that are already battling for the comp the product positioning in the space. Would much rather be the first entrance into supply chain optimization software or uh cyber security for small business. Turns out not many people in that industry. And the last thing that has to be true is is there liquidity uh propensity in the space. There's some markets where people just there's no liquidity in the space. People don't want to own these companies. Uh and so if all five of those things are true, that helps us filter ideas. And so that then we got
### DVX 创立公司的孵化模式 一个去验证这些想法的研究团队，然后我们就会把那个想法拿出来投入实际运作。我们担任第一任 CEO。我们开发产品，而最初的检验标准就是：你能否让别人为此付钱？这就是我们衡量产品市场匹配度的方式。因此，如果我们开始获得接近一百万美元的签约年度经常性收入（contracted ARR），我们就会觉得：“噢，这里面可能有搞头。”
Original English a research team that proves those out and then we will take that idea off the shelf. We become the first CEO. We develop the product and the first test is can you get somebody to pay you for this? And that's our measure of product market fit. So if we start to get contracted ARR heading towards a million dollars, we say, "Oo, there might be something here."
这里面有非常积极的信号，因为你并没有销售团队，也不是说你投入了营销费用。你只是把产品推出来，人们就愿意为之付费。如果我们做到了这一点，接下来就会去寻找一个团队，这是下一步。我们会寻找一个在这一领域取得过成功的两三次连续创业者。他们了解将一家公司从零做到最初五百万销售额所需要的韧劲与实干，我认为这可能是商业中最难的事情之一。他们经历过这些，知道这有多难，也找到了走通这条路的方法。而且他们往往带来的不仅是市场洞察，还有人才，因为我们在这些领导者身上寻找的是：他们是否有追随者，优秀的领导者往往都有一批追随者。接着我们把领导者引入进来，他们通常能够扭转并拉升公司的增长曲线，然后我们就全速起飞了。这就是 DVX 本质上的基本运作逻辑。我们开创这些公司。我们有一套方法，并且已经用这些方法创立了 17 家这样的公司，现在正准备推出接下来的三家。
Original English And there's good signal in that because you have no sales force. It's not like you got no marketing dollars. You're putting a product out and people are agreeing to pay for it. If we have that, then we go look for a team and that's the next step. And we will look for a second or third time entrepreneur who's had success in the domain. So, they know the grittiness of taking a company from zero to its first five million in sales, which I think might be one of the hardest things in business. And uh they've been through that. They know how hard it is. They've seen their way through. And they often bring not only market insight, but talent because the thing that we look for in those leaders is do they have a following because good leaders tend to have a following. And then we'll bring a leader in and they typically bend the curve of the company and then we're off to the races. But that's the basic formula of who DVX is. We invent these companies. We've got a method uh and we've launched 17 of these companies with these methods and we're about ready to launch the next three.
### 时间管理与专注原则 >> 你平时是如何看待时间管理的？
Original English >> How do you think about time management?
>> 这实际上归结为史蒂夫·柯维在《高效能人士的七个习惯》中教给我的东西，核心完全在于你如何安排一天的日程。所以我对时间管理的思考是围绕最重要的事情展开的。因此我有一些时间块，它们字面上就是我日历上的时间块。如果我拿出我的谷歌日历，上面会显示这里是一个锻炼时间块，这里是一个家庭时间块，这里是一个工作时间块，几个工作时间块。我围绕着这些工作时间块来管理时间。设置这些时间块的逻辑精髓之一，就是在我能完全专注的工作时间块里，我会关闭其他所有东西，只做这一件事。
Original English >> It really comes down to like this is what Steve Cubby taught me in the seven habits and it's really all about how you structure your day. And so I think about time management is around the things that are most important. And so I kind of have blocks and uh they're literally blocks in my calendar. If like we if I pulled out my Google calendar, it would show here's an exercise block, here's a family block, here's a work block, few work blocks. Uh and I manage my time around those work blocks. Part of the method to the madness with those blocks is is work blocks where I can like to totally concentrate. I shut down everything else and I just work that one thing.
而且这往往会有更高的产出质量，因为我没有在不同事情之间来回切换，并且我拥有更长的一整段时间，所以我在推进工作时不会面临时间压力。我有两到三个小时的时间去真正钻研某件事情并把它解决掉。我在其中只使用不同的技巧，比如精益制造技术中的一条规则是：只处理一次（touch it once）。这意味着如果我打开了一封电子邮件，我就会回复它。我已经碰过它了，我只想碰它一次。我不想把它重新标为未读，然后再回过头来碰它。所以，我尝试通过像这样的小窍门来使我的时间变得超级高效。比如只碰事情一次、处理掉、清出去。然后，把你的时间集中在真正重要的事情上。
Original English And uh it tends to be higher quality because I'm not switching back and forth and I've got a longer period of time so I'm not time pressured to to make progress. I've got two or three hours to like really wrestle with something and get it off my plate. Uh and I use just different techniques within the like one lean manufacturing technique rule is you touch it once. So that means if I open an email, I'm answering that. I've touched it. I only want to touch it once. I don't want to like put it back as unread and then touch it again later. So, uh, so I try to be super efficient with my time with little like hacks like that. Like touch things once, process it, get it out. Uh, and uh, and then concentrate your time on the stuff that really matters.
### 从埃隆·马斯克身上汲取的经验 >> 你从埃隆身上学到的其他没有写进书里的经验有哪些？
Original English >> What are some of the other lessons you learned from Elon that didn't make it into the book?
>> 我认为很多创业者都从他那里获得了启发，去投身于重要的宏大事业。我们过去常常开玩笑说，我们这一代人中最聪明的一些头脑却把精力放在了吸引人们去点击广告上，这让我想要去做一些更宏大的事情，因为我觉得：“是啊，那不能让我感到满足。我想做一些更大、更有帮助也更有用的事情。”所以，我认为他去应对那些巨大的挑战，比如太空、机器人、人工智能等，他就是不会在这些巨大的挑战面前退缩。他非常具备商业头脑，因为他能找到创造财富的途径，并把这些事情做成真正的商业项目，但他不会在那些极其重大的问题面前退缩。我认为这就是为什么拉里·佩奇曾说：“嘿，与其把我所有的财富捐给慈善机构，我倒不如把它给埃隆，因为他会实打实地创造就业机会。他会创造数以万计甚至数十万的就业机会。”这确实对人们的生活产生了直接的影响。
Original English >> I think a lot of entrepreneurs have taken inspiration from him to work on big stuff that matters. And we used to joke about some of the best minds of our generation were focused on getting people to click on ads and we and and that made me want to do something bigger because I was like, "Yeah, I don't that doesn't satisfy me. I want to do something bigger that's more helpful and useful." And so I think his tackling big challenges like space, like robotics, uh like artificial intelligence, etc., like he just doesn't shy away from these big challenges. He's very commercial in the sense that he finds a way to make to make to create wealth and and to make real businesses out of these things, but he he doesn't shy away from the big big problems. Which is I think why Larry Page said, "Hey, like rather than giving all my uh all my wealth to a a philanthropy, I want to give it to Elon because he's actually going to create jobs. He's going to create tens of thousands of jobs, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs." And that really has direct impact on people's lives.
所以，我觉得我从他那里学到的一点，就是要敢于挑战那些重要的重大事情。
Original English And uh so I think that's one thing that I take away from him was it was the challenge to work on big stuff that matters.
>> 但不仅是那些宏大的想法在推动你向前，还有内在的巨大挑战。
Original English >> But it's not only big ideas that are pulling you forward. It's like big challenges internally.
>> 确实是这样。所以你要去寻找挑战，寻找人们因为挑战太大而退避三舍的地方。
Original English >> Exactly. So you look for the challenge. You look for where people have shied away because the challenge is big.
>> 通常在我的公司 DVX，当我们开始审视一个商业机会或创业机会时——因为我们是从零开始开创这些公司的。我们会去寻找存在的重大技术挑战，这正是机会仍然存在的原因，因为它尚未被解决，而且很多人都对其望而却步。所以我们疯狂到会说：这意味着我们可能应该去那里看看。因为如果我们解决了那个问题，我们就拥有了护城河的雏形，一条竞争护城河。这让别人很难跟进我们，而护城河往往能造就极具价值的业务。因此，如果这里存在真正的挑战，我们就从它开始，不要退缩，让我们扎进那个挑战中，迎头赶上去。
Original English >> And it's typically like at DVX my firm when we start looking at a business opportunity or company opportunity because we invent these companies from scratch. We look for a big technical challenge that exists and that's why the opportunity is still there because it hasn't been solved and a lot of people shied away from it. So we we're crazy enough to say that means we probably ought to look there. Um because if we solve that problem we've got the beginnings of a moat, a competitive moat. Uh that makes it very difficult to follow us. And moes tend to make really valuable businesses. So let's start with if there's a real challenge here, let's not shy away. Let's go dive into that challenge. just run towards it.
### 创业动机的转变与成功的定义 >> 随着时间的推移，你的动力来源发生了改变吗？
Original English >> Has the source of your motivation changed over time?
>> 是的，确实发生了改变。
Original English >> Yeah. Yeah, it definitely has.
>> 以前是什么，现在又是什么？
Original English >> What was it before and what is it now?
>> 当我最初开始做公司的时候，我的经济出身相当贫困。所以我想赚大钱，最初我想的只是去打造一个非常有价值的东西。
Original English >> So when I started to build companies, I just I came from a pretty poor economic background. Uh and so I wanted to like make money and so I initially I thought I just want to build something that's a that's very valuable.
后来当我们的第一家公司迎来第一次成果退出时，我记得走进办公室，第一个迎接我的是前台接待员，她热泪盈眶，因为她持有股票，她说：“我们刚刚买了一套房子。”接着我走进办公室，另一个人抓住我，给了我一个紧紧的拥抱，他说：“你靠这些股票替我孩子支付了大学学费。”我说：“不，是你自己做到的，因为这是我们大家一起完成的。”在那之后，我的动力发生了转变。我想的是，我们建立公司是为了创造就业机会。当你创造了就业机会，人们……作为领导者，你会在背后看到所有这些外溢效应和二阶效应。但那天走过那间办公室带给我的满足感，那种无法用语言形容的满足感，远远超过了看我的银行存款余额。
Original English And then when we the first company had its had its first outcome, I remember walking into the office and the first person that greeted me was the receptionist and she was in tears cuz she had stock and she said, "We just bought a house." Then I walked into the office and another guy grabbed me, gave put me in a bear hug and he's like, "You just paid for my kids' college education by this stock." I'm like, "No, you did it because we all did this together." My motivation switched after that. I was like, the reason we're building companies is to create jobs. And when you create jobs, people, there's all these externalities and second order effects that you don't see as a leader. But walking through that office that day was way more satisfying to me, indescribably more satisfying than looking at my bank balance.
随着时间的推移，那种满足感已经成为了激励我前行的源动力。就像是，让我们去打造长青的企业，它们为人们提供优质的工作岗位，以非常积极的方式影响着世界，因为我想在 10 年或 15 年后再回到这些公司时，看到它们依然生机勃勃，依然在雇佣员工。因为这才是重要的。在我成长的那个家庭里，能够买得起杂货食物真的很重要。能够买得起一双鞋子真的很重要。归根结底，创造就业机会才是我真正热爱做的事情。
Original English And over time, what that that satisfaction has become the currency that fuels me. It's like, let's go create long-term companies. They're creating great jobs for people that are impacting the world in a really positive way because I want to go back to these companies in 10 or 15 years and they're still thriving. They're still employing people. Um because that's what matters. That like it really mattered to be able to buy groceries in the family that I was growing up in. Um it really mattered to be able to buy a pair of shoes and at its raw sense that's what I really enjoy doing is creating jobs.
>> 我们结束这些访谈时总是问同一个问题，那就是：对你来说，什么是成功？ 对我就意味着孩子们愿意陪伴在我身边。这……这就是我衡量成功的核心灯塔；妻子愿意陪伴在我身边，人生伴侣；然后我有时间去创办我真正喜欢的公司，去过工作之外的生活，做我自己真正享受的事情——通常就是在户外。我热爱置身于大自然中。如果这些框都勾选上了，我就觉得自己是成功的。
Original English >> We always end these interviews with the exact same question which is what is success for you? Success for me is kids that want to be around me. Like that that's my key beacon of success, wife that wants to be around me, life partner, and then I have time to create companies which I really enjoy and just do the things uh non-professionally that I really enjoy which typically is just be outside. I I love to just be in wilderness. Uh and uh and so if those boxes are checked, I feel successful.