--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-10-20' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd2wAK9xKLg speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - political-reform - campaign-finance - populism - rage-economy - polarization title: 詹姆斯·塔拉里科谈愤怒经济、超级富豪与翻转得克萨斯 summary: 在全美最昂贵且激烈的得克萨斯州联邦参议员选战中，民主党籍州众议员詹姆斯·塔拉里科接受《每日新闻》专访，剖析社交媒体背后的“愤怒经济”机制，阐述超越左右对立、自下而上的经济民粹主义纲领，提出废除阻挠议事、打击金钱政治与高生活成本的系统性改革设想，并分享其以基督教信仰重构道德政治的理念。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: [] companies_orgs: [] products_models: [] media_books: [] status: evergreen --- ### 节目开篇：得州参议员选举风云 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 这里是《纽约时报》，我是**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**（Michael Barbaro）。这是《每日新闻》（The Daily）。 在深红的德克萨斯州，**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**（James Talarico）正试图成为近40年来第一位当选**美国联邦参议员**（United States Senate）的民主党人，而这场竞选已经成为今年中期选举中迄今为止最昂贵、最激烈的一场战役。 今天，我们将与塔拉里科对话，探讨他正在进行的这场选战、针对他本人的极具人身攻击性的抹黑行动，以及如果民主党人重新夺回国会控制权，他希望党内采取何种行动。 今天是10月20日，星期二。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: From the New York Times, I'm [music] Michael Bubaro. This is the daily. In bright red, Texas, James Telerico is trying to [music] become the first Democrat to be elected to the United States Senate in nearly 40 years [music] in what's become by far the most expensive and ferocious campaign of this year's midterm elections. Today we speak [music] with Telerico about the kind of race he's running, the highly personal campaign against [music] him, and what he wants Democrats to do if they take back control of Congress. It's [music] Tuesday, October 20th.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 嗨，你好。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Hey there.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 嗨，你好吗？
Original English **James Talarico**: Hey, how are you?
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 挺好的。你能听到我说话吗？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Good. Can you hear me?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 能听到。你能听到我吗？
Original English **James Talarico**: I can. Can you hear me?
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 听得很清楚。非常感谢你能接受我们的采访，**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**议员。欢迎来到《每日新闻》。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I can. Thank you for joining us, Representative James Telerico. Welcome to the Daily.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 哦，非常感谢你们邀请我。
Original English **James Talarico**: Oh, thank you for having me.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我的荣幸。我知道你刚刚从一场非常严重的流感中康复，这可以说是现代竞选史上最著名的一场流感了。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: My pleasure. I know you just emerged from a really nasty flu, arguably the most famous flu in modern campaign history.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: “流感门”（Flu gate）。是的。
Original English **James Talarico**: Flu gate. Yeah.
### 得州政治格局与选战背景 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我知道你有很多竞选活动需要补上，所以你能在百忙之中抽出时间来接受我们的采访，对我们来说意义重大。在开始之前，我想先说明一点：我们也向你的竞选对手、得克萨斯州共和党籍总检察长**肯·帕克斯顿**（Ken Paxton）提出了采访邀请。但到目前为止，我们还没有确定下具体时间。所以听众朋友们，请继续关注。 议员先生，我想先向大家解释一下，为什么我们会在距选举日仅剩大约两周的这个中期选举关键节点与你交谈。那是因为在我们的节目报道中，实际上也是在整个《纽约时报》的深度报道中，一个事实已经变得越来越明确：相当一部分对**唐纳德·特朗普**（Donald Trump）总统感到幻灭和失望的共和党选民，对于在本次选举中投票给民主党人持异乎寻常的开放态度，即使在最深红的州也是如此。 我们在节目中一直在讨论的这种动态，在你在得克萨斯州的这场选战中表现得尤为淋漓尽致。这是一个特朗普总统在2024年以14个百分点的巨大优势拿下的红州，然而你在最近数周的民调中却始终保持领先。因此，我认为完全可以肯定地说，你已经成为共和党人在本次中期选举中最害怕的民主党人。他们正在针对你发起一场耗资巨大且极具侵略性的攻势。那么，在成为数十年里难得一见的可能翻转得州的民主党人，以及共和党人为确保这绝不会发生而发起极其凶悍的围剿这两种极端境况之间，作为身处这一切风暴中心的当事人，你现在感觉如何？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: So, I know you have a lot of campaigning to make up for, so it means a lot that you found the time for us. I just want to get out of the way. We asked your opponent, Ken Paxton, the Republican attorney general in Texas, for an interview as well. And so far, we haven't locked anything down. So, stay tuned. I want to explain, Representative why we're talking to you at this specific moment in this midterm campaign about two weeks out from election day. And that's because what's become clear in our coverage on the show and really across Times coverage is that a good number of disillusioned Republican voters are upset enough with President Trump that they are unusually open to voting for Democrats in this election, even in very red states. And nowhere is that dynamic we've been talking about on more vivid display than your race in Texas. This is a state that President Trump won in 2024 by 14 points and where you have nevertheless been leading in the polls now for weeks. Which is why I think it's safe to say you've become the Democrat that Republicans fear the most in these midterms. they are throwing an extraordinarily expensive and ferocious campaign against you. So between those two polls of being the rare Democrat who might flip Texas for the first time in decades and this really aggressive campaign by Republicans to make sure that never happens, how does it feel to be the guy in the middle of all of that right now?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 嗯，我们依然处于明显的劣势（underdogs）。我们要对抗的是得克萨斯州最腐败的政客，而他的背后站着世界上最有权势的人和世界上最富有的人。总统和**埃隆·马斯克**（Elon Musk）都在全力支持我们的对手肯·帕克斯顿。因此，在清点完最后一张选票之前，我们始终都是处于劣势的一方。 你说的完全没错。他们已经向这场竞选中砸入了整整2亿美元。他们把这笔巨资全花在了针对我的攻击性广告上，竭尽全力把我描绘得尽可能可怕。这是因为埃隆·马斯克正企图花钱买下专属于他自己的美国联邦参议员。但我坚信，在11月3日那天，我们得克萨斯州将会向这位世界首位万亿富翁发出一个无比清晰的声音：**得克萨斯是非卖品**（Texas is not for sale）。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, we are still very much the underdogs. We're going up against the most corrupt politician in Texas who is backed by the most powerful man in the world and the richest man in the world. Both the president and Elon Musk are backing our opponent Ken Paxton. And so, uh, we are the underdogs until the last vote is counted. And you're exactly right. They have already poured $200 million into this race. They spend it on attack ads against me, making me look as scary as possible. And it's because Elon Musk is trying to buy his own personal US senator. But I really do believe that on November 3rd, our state is going to send the world's first trillionaire a very clear message that Texas is not for sale.
### 愤怒经济与恶意攻击广告 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我想谈谈在过去几天和几周里所发生的事情，因为随着所有这些资金和政治力量被倾泻到你身上，这种局面相当不同寻常。我是说，就在过去一周里，共和党人重新拿那场著名的流感大做文章，声称你住进了俄亥俄州的一家精神病院，基本上是在造谣说你精神崩溃疯掉了。而且甚至贵为美国副总统的**J·D·万斯**（JD Vance），也一再坚持一种说法——如果我可以概括他的言论的话——那就是声称你是一个有着不良网络搜索记录的变态。我的意思是，竞选活动历来充斥着人身攻击，竞选广告向来都很负面。但是，你如何解读针对你的这种极端的版本？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I want to talk about what has unfolded over the past couple of days and weeks as all this money and muscle has been thrown at you because it's quite singular. I mean, just over the past week, Republicans have claimed back to the famous flu, you were checked into an Ohio mental institution, basically that you that you went crazy. And no less than the vice president of the United States, JD Vance, has doubled down on a claim, if I can distill his remarks, that you are a pervert with a problematic online search history. I mean, campaigns have always been full of personal attacks. They've always been negative. But how do you interpret this quite extreme version of that?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。我认为这就是我所说的**愤怒经济**（rage economy）的一个典型例证。阴谋论者可以在网上发布他们想发布的任何内容，政客们也可以在网上信口开河说任何他们想说的话。发帖的人赚取了点击率，我们两边阵营的民众都被煽动得怒火中烧，而没有一个人的实际生活因此得到任何改善。 这真的是一场悲剧，因为我认为我们当中的很多人之所以去使用这些社交平台，是因为我们在寻找人与人之间的连接与共鸣；然而相反的是，我们却跌入了这种残缺破败的商业模式陷阱中，它让我们变得更加孤独，让我们在离开平台时比最初打开它时感到更加疏离和隔绝。因此我知道，我自己只是这种现象最新的一个受害者受众案例，但这实际上是一个伤害我们所有人的系统性弊病，而绝不仅仅关乎我个人或者我的竞选活动。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think this is an example of what I call the rage economy. Conspiracy theorists can post anything they want online. Politicians can say anything they want online. The poster gets clicks. We all get angry on both sides and no one's life gets any better. And so it's tragic because I think so many of us go to these platforms because we are searching for connection and instead we fall into this broken business model that leaves us lonelier. Uh it leaves us more disconnected than when we hopped on the platform in the first place. So I know I'm kind of the latest example of this, but it's really a systemic problem that's hurting all of us, not just me and and my campaign.
### 攻击广告中的形象与真实自我 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我想非常简短地描述一下这些攻击广告，因为我认为这有助于我们探究你究竟是怎样一个人的真实故事——看看这些资金，以及背后提供海量支持的马斯克，到底在用这些钱对你进行怎样的指控：
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, I want to describe very briefly because I think it will help get us to the story of who you really are. what this money and Musk behind a tremendous amount of it is being used to say about you.
**攻击广告旁白**: 詹姆斯·塔拉里科很古怪，非常古怪。
Original English **Attack Ad Voice**: James Telerico [music] is weird. Very weird.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科（原声片段）**: 捍卫得克萨斯州的跨性别同胞，是我们每一天都必须要做的事情。
Original English **James Talarico (Archival Clip)**: Defending Trans Texas Texans is something we have to do every day.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 广告指责你过于觉醒（woke），指责你过度沉迷于社会议题……
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: That you are woke, that you are overly focused on social issues.
**攻击广告旁白**: 塔拉里科支持动用纳税人的钱为未成年儿童进行变性手术……
Original English **Attack Ad Voice**: Terrio supported using taxpayer dollars for sex change surgeries on young children
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: ……比如跨性别权利……
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: like trans rights
**攻击广告旁白 / 原声片段**: ……甚至声称否认孩子的性别认同就是虐待。现代科学显然承认，生物学意义上的性别远远不止两种。事实上，有六种。
Original English **Attack Ad Voice / Clip**: and even said denying your child's gender identity is abusive. Modern science obviously recognizes that there [music] are many more than two biological sexes. In fact, there are six.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科（原声片段）**: 对于正在家里观看电视的跨性别孩子们，我只想对你们说：我爱你们。
Original English **James Talarico (Archival Clip)**: To the trans kids watching at home, I just want to say I love you.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 广告还攻击你的基督教信仰荒诞神秘、极度左翼，偏离了主流。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: That your Christianity is woowoo [music] and leftwing [laughter] out of the mainstream.
**攻击广告旁白**: 激进自由派詹姆斯·塔拉里科服务的是“他们/她们”（they/them），而不是你，得克萨斯！
Original English **Attack Ad Voice**: Radical liberal James Terico for they them, not you, Texas.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 指责你根本就不是一个温和派，说你根本不适合得克萨斯州。所以，我们很想问问你，你究竟是一个怎样的人？你来自哪里？你又是如何一步步走到今天这一刻、走上竞选美国联邦参议员的舞台的？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: And that you're not really a moderate at all and you're not right for Texas. And so let's ask you, you know, who you actually are and where you came from and how it brought you to this moment and to this campaign for US Senate.
### 从公立学校讲台到得州众议院 **詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。我认为很多这类攻击广告完全是偏离了主题。因为在得克萨斯州，我们所有人真正关切的是不断飙升的生活成本；是无论我们多么努力地工作，无论我们怎样节衣缩食、拼命储蓄和牺牲，账单好像永远都无法打平的事实。而这一切的根源，在于这个经济体系和政治体制已经被操纵，用来对付我们普通人。 我最早是在踏入政坛之前亲身体会到这个体制的破败的。在我成为一名政客或候选人之前，我曾是一名**公立学校教师**（public school teacher）。我在圣安东尼奥西区的罗兹中学（Rhodes Middle School，也就是“奋战野猫队”的主场）教六年级的语文阅读课。西区是一个历史底蕴深厚的美丽社区，但同时也是全得克萨斯州最贫困的邮政编码区之一。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. And I think a lot of these attack ads are off topic because what we're all concerned about here in Texas is the rising cost of living. The fact that no matter how hard we work, no matter how much we stretch and save and sacrifice, those ends never seem to meet. And it's because this system, this economic system and this political system have been rigged against us. I first experienced this broken system personally. Before I was ever a a politician or a candidate, I was a public school teacher and I taught sixth grade language arts at Roads Middle School, home of the Fight and Wildcats on the west side of of San Antonio. The west side is this beautiful historic neighborhood. It's also one of the poorest zip codes in the entire state of Texas.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 那是你参加“**为美国而教**”（Teach for America）项目的时候吧。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: This was when you were in Teach for America.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 正是如此。那是在2011年，就在得克萨斯州议会从我们州的公共教育预算中削减了50多亿美元之后不久。因此，我亲眼目睹了这些预算削减所带来的直接冲击。我亲身看到了权力殿堂里做出的决策，是如何切切实实地伤害有血有肉的普通人的。
Original English **James Talarico**: That's right. And it was in 2011, right after our state legislature in Texas cut more than $5 billion from public education in our state. And so I saw the impacts of those cuts firsthand. I saw how decisions made in the halls of power hurt flesh and blood human beings.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 具体是怎样造成伤害的？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: How did it hurt?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 有一次，我的一个教室里坐了45名学生，而教室里的课桌根本不够给所有孩子坐。是的，班级规模极其庞大。而且那是在午餐之后的时间，你可以想象一下，在午饭后把一大群初中生塞进一个拥挤巨大的教室里，场面有多么混乱。因为没有足够的课桌，有的孩子只能无奈地坐在空调外机箱上听课。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. At one point I had 45 students in one classroom and there weren't enough desks for all those kids. Yeah. Very large. And it was after lunch. So you can imagine middle schoolers after lunch in a giant packed classroom. It was just chaos. And and I had kids because there weren't enough desks sitting on the air conditioning unit.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 哇。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Wow.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我当时清清楚楚地记得自己在想：这里可是世界上最富有的国家啊，而我们的孩子们竟然只能坐在空调箱上上课。对我而言，那是一次彻底的思想觉醒与激进化经历。 后来，当正是削减了那50亿美元教育经费的州议会，在我家乡得克萨斯州朗德罗克（Round Rock）出现了一个席位空缺时，我便毅然决定参选。当时我只有28岁，此前从未竞选过任何公职。我是一名在支持特朗普的选区里参选的民主党人。当时民主党党内的掌权派告诉我，那场选举纯属无望之举，劝我不要白白浪费时间。他们对我说我太年轻了，既没有资金，也没有在那样一个选区获胜所需的政治人脉。 但是，我们展开了一场极具进取心、有时甚至可以说是打破常规的竞选活动，把不同阵营的人们紧紧团结在一起。我们践行了一种求同存异的团结政治。而在选举之夜，我们以51%的得票率成功翻转了那个选区。如今，我已经是在得克萨斯州众议院连任四届的州众议员了。
Original English **James Talarico**: I remember distinctly thinking this is the wealthiest country in the world and we've got children sitting on the air conditioning unit. and and that was a um a radicalizing experience for me. And then when a seat in that very same legislature that had cut those $5 billion opened up in my hometown of Round Rock, Texas, I threw my hat in the ring. I was 28 years old. I had never run for office before. I was a a Democrat running in a Trump district. And I was told by, [snorts] you know, the powers that be in the Democratic party that that race was a lost cause and I shouldn't waste my time on it. They told me I was a little too young. I was I didn't have the money, didn't have the political connections to to win a race like that. But, you know, we ran an aggressive, at times unorthodox campaign that that brought people together. Uh we practiced a politics of unity. And on election night, we flipped that district with 51% of the vote. And now I'm in my fourth term in the Texas House.
### 选区重划与跨党派合作的破裂 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我想聊聊你在州议会中的经历。你因在一系列立法议题上与共和党人保持密切合作而享有盛誉。然而尽管如此，你的共和党同僚们后来重新绘制了选区地图，基本上把一个原本偏紫、略倾向于特朗普的席位，改造成了一个极度深红、几乎不可能想象你能胜选的选区，实质上通过**杰利蝾螈**（gerrymandering，选区重划）将你排挤出了你的席位。我不禁想知道，这对你意味着什么？这是否在某种程度上也让你更加清醒或激进化了？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, I want to talk a little bit about what happens to you in the legislature. You have a reputation for working closely with Republicans on a number of pieces of legislation. Despite that, your Republican colleagues redraw the legislative maps and basically take a seat that's purple and a little bit Trump and make it quite Republican and very hard to imagine you winning and essentially you get redistricted out of your seat. And I do wonder what that meant to you. Was that at all radicalizing?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我确实亲眼见识到了这个政治体制是多么破碎不堪。政客们竟然被允许亲手绘制自己的选民边界，这简直荒唐透顶。毫不奇怪，我们才会看到这些设计出来、专门用来确保某种特定政党选举结果的奇形怪状的选区。
Original English **James Talarico**: I certainly saw how broken this political system is. And the fact that politicians are allowed to draw their own lines is just insane. And it's no wonder we have these, you know, crazy looking districts that are designed and manufactured to guarantee a certain outcome,
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 对吧？民主党人同样也这么干。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: right? Democrats do it as well.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 嗯，是的。我的意思是，这根本不是哪一个政党的问题，这是**权力垄断**的问题。我亲身经历过这种打压。后来我选择在隔壁的选区参选——那实际上是我从小长大的选区，所以这在某种程度上算是一次故里重归。在随后的立法会期开始时，我又成功以议员身份重返了州议会大厅。我之所以坚持这么做，是因为我想证明我依然会在议会中坚守阵地、继续战斗。最终我们确实做到了。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, yeah. I mean, this is not an issue of party. This is an issue of power. And so, I I experienced that firsthand. I ended up running in the district next door. It was actually the district I grew up in. So, it was a little bit of a a homecoming. And I was able to walk back on that floor at the beginning of the next legislative session. And I I wanted to do that cuz I wanted to prove that I would still be in the legislature still fighting. And we were able to do that.
### 文化战争、极端议题与立场争议 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我能打断你一下吗？因为我觉得在这个新的、更倾向于民主党的深蓝选区里发生的事情非常耐人寻味。正如你刚才所说，当你成功拿下并坐稳这个席位后，你开始将自己形容为一名自豪的进步派，公开表示你在奋力抵抗共和党的极端主义。这是在2021年之后的事情。同时你发表了一些显得更为左倾自由派的言论，比如提到有六种性别，比如将上帝描述为‘非二元性别的’（non-binary）。究竟是什么促成了这种转变？这是因为你突然置身于一个更蓝的选区，还是有别的什么缘由？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, can I pause you for a second because I think it's interesting what happens in this new district, this bluer district. When you're in that seat, which you do prevail on, as you just said, you describe yourself as a proud progressive. You describe yourself as working against Republican extremism. This is after 2021. And you make statements that feel more liberal about there being six sexes. This is when you describe God as as non-binary. What motivated that? Was it tied to the fact that you that you were suddenly in a bluer district or was it something else?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。我认为自己根本没有改变，而是州议会大厦里的共和党人彻底变了。是的，是他们变了。 你看，当我在2018年首次当选时，我是当时翻转了原本属于共和党选区的12名民主党人之一。这一切突然给得克萨斯州的共和党施加了巨大的压力，迫使他们展现出更多常识，愿意跨党派合作。在那段时期，文化战争的内容其实被压缩到了最低限度。 然而在那之后，也就是在2021年立法会期期间——也就是我被通过选区重划排挤出去的那届会期——那些立法会期真正见证了共和党极端主义的全面抬头。正是在那个时期，得州通过了极其严苛的**堕胎禁令**；通过了**无许可证携枪法案**（permitless carry），允许任何人无需任何许可就可以公开携带枪支；他们甚至从得州的公民课课程大纲中删除了马丁·路德·金（Martin Luther King Jr.）和弗雷德里克·道格拉斯（Frederick Douglass），并大搞图书禁令。因此，我被推到了一个必须奋起反抗那种极端主义的境地。 所以，你提到了我关于性别议题或关乎跨性别群体的一些发言。我竞选州议员可绝不是为了整天去大谈这些议题。重申一下，如果你回顾我的第一个会期，我当时最想谈的是公共教育，这也是我最初参选的初心；我想谈的是医疗保健，作为一名**1型糖尿病**患者，我对医疗系统有着切身的体会。然而极其讽刺的是，现在他们断章取义截取那些言论，搞得好像我是那个整天主动大谈特谈这些话题的人；但事实上，是州议会里的共和党极端分子对跨性别议题走火入魔，疯狂沉迷于议论人们的隐私部位。那不是我，是他们改变了。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. I don't think I changed. I think Republicans at the state capital changed. So they changed. Yes. So, you know, when I first got elected in 2018, I was part of a group of 12 Democrats who flipped Republican districts. And so, all of that suddenly put pressure on the Republican party in Texas to use a little more common sense, to work across the aisle. The culture war stuff was really at a minimum. And then after that, the 2021 session, uh, which is when I got redistricted out. Those sessions really saw a rise in that Republican extremism. This is when the extreme abortion ban was passed in Texas. This is when they passed permitless carry, which allows anyone to carry a weapon without having to have a permit. Uh, this is when they removed Dr. King and Frederick Douglas from the civics curriculum in Texas, the book banning. So, I was put in a position where I had to fight back against that extremism. So, you mentioned some of my comments on gender or on issues affecting trans people. It's not like I ran for the legislature to talk about these things. Again, if you go back to my first session, I wanted to talk about public education, which is why I ran in the first place. I want to talk about healthcare, which I have a personal experience with as a type 1 diabetic. And so now it's kind of ironic that they're clipping these things to make it sound like I'm the one who was was talking about this when in reality it was the Republican extremists at the capital who were obsessed with talking about trans issues, obsessed with talking about people's private parts. U that wasn't me, that was them that changed.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我想我理解你表达的意思，那就是在当时那个节点上，你感到不得不挺身而出捍卫某个群体。我之所以追问这一点，是因为你后来自己也承认，当年的某些言论‘偏离了重点’（missed the mark）或者显得‘令人尴尬尴尬癌犯了’（cringey）。我只是试图理解，在那一刻你为什么会选择扛起那面大旗。我的推测是，这很可能是州议会内部激化态势与当时更广泛的社会文化氛围相互交织的结果。我们谈论的是2020年之后的时期，当时广义上的民主党整体都在苦苦思索在自身价值观下究竟该如何为特定群体发声——在你看来，这是否曾走得太远了？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I think I understand the point you're making, which is that you felt forced to defend a group of people in the moment that you did. And I I the only reason I'm asking this is because you have since said some of those things the quote you used missed the mark or were were cringey and I'm just trying to understand in that moment why you took up the mantle that you did. And my suspicion is that it probably is some combination of of what was happening in a legislature but also perhaps in the broader culture. We're talking about post 2020 when the Democratic Party writ large is grappling with what it means in their estimation to defend certain groups and did it ever go too far?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的，我的意思是，这种情况可能确实发生在了全国更广泛的民主党内部。我并不是特别……
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah, I mean that may have happened in the Democratic party at large. I'm not really um you know
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 在你的具体案例中，它是否走得太远了？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: did it go too far in your case
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: ……我并没有深入卷入或者过多关注民主党在全国层面上发生的一切。我唯一能告诉你的是得克萨斯州发生的事情。而在得克萨斯州，那些法案绝非脱离现实的空头理论。 这些法案在真真切切地伤害我的选民。极其严酷的堕胎禁令意味着妇女们在医院急诊室的停车场里流血致死，因为医生们害怕因提供必要的医疗救治而面临终身监禁的牢狱之灾。得州的一党专政正在剥夺公立学校的资金，把钱转移到富裕家庭的私立学校代金券上；他们通过让街头充斥枪支的法律，导致大规模枪击案频发。这些威胁是真实的、致命的，关系到人们的切身生死。面对这种极端主义，如果我不站出来大声疾呼、保护我的选民，那我就愧对这份公职。我绝不会向这种伤害普通百姓的极端议程低头，因为那关乎全州3100万得州同胞的切身利益。
Original English **James Talarico**: plugged into to what happened what happens nationally with the Democratic party. All I can tell you is what happens in Texas and in Texas these bills are not theoretical. These bills are actually hurting my constituents. The extreme abortion ban means that women are bleeding out in parking lots of emergency rooms because doctors are terrified of going to prison for the rest of their lives if they provide care. Our state leaders are starving our public schools so they can give vouchers to wealthy parents to send their kids to private schools. They're passing laws that make it easier for dangerous people to carry firearms. So when I was on the floor, I was fighting for the lives and the well-being of everyday Texans. That's what I was focused on. And I think that's why we're connecting with people now, because Texans know that extremism from either side doesn't help them put food on the table or keep a roof over their heads.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 明白了。我绝不想让你觉得我是在毫无必要地揪着这一点不放。我只是被你后来自己所说的那些话所吸引——你暗示自己有时感到在文化战争中被牵着鼻子走，或者某些言论并没有真正打动你刚刚提到的那些普通得州人。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Got it. And I don't want you to think I'm harping on this unnecessarily. I was drawn to your own comments later on suggesting that you had felt at times pulled into these fights in ways that missed the mark with the people you just described.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。我绝不后悔为我的选民挺身而出，如果重来一次我依然会这么做。但我确实认为，我们在沟通方式和语言表述上可以做得更好、更有效。政客们常常陷入立法大厦内部那种晦涩、抽象的行话术语中，而忘记了用普通家庭围坐在餐桌旁交谈时所使用的真实、朴素的语言。这正是我们在这次全州竞选活动中所极力贯彻的：用大家听得懂的话，去谈论大家最在乎的民生核心痛点。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. I don't regret standing up for my constituents. I would do it again. I think what I said was that politicians can get caught up in academic jargon and Twitter terminology instead of speaking from the heart in the language of everyday people. When you're talking about basic human rights and human dignity, you don't need fancy words or ideological labels. You just need to speak directly about right and wrong. And so that's the lesson I took from it: to make sure that I am always grounding our fight in the real, kitchen-table issues that matter to everyday working families across Texas, and speaking about those issues more clearly and effectively.
### 打破左右对立：自下而上的垂直政治 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我们将稍作休整，马上回来。 好，我想花些时间深入探讨你独特而鲜明的竞选风格。你在选战中传递的核心信息似乎是：美国政治不再仅仅是左派对抗右派的横向之争，而是底层大众对抗顶层寡头的纵向博弈——也就是普通劳动人民与亿万富豪、寡头政治之间的对决。这在全国范围内赢得了大量反响。但我想问的是，在如今这个两极分化极其严重、党派偏见根深蒂固的时代，这种尝试打破传统党派界限的讯息，真的能够跨越红蓝鸿沟吗？在过去，很多人尝试过这种做法，但往往都以失败告终。你凭什么认为在当下的得克萨斯，这种超越左右的叙事能够奏效？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: We'll be right back. So, I want to spend some time with your specific and unique campaign message. The core of what you're arguing seems to be that American politics is no longer best understood as left versus right, but top versus bottom—working people versus billionaires and oligarchs. And that has resonated widely. But I have to ask: in an era of such intense affective polarization, where voters are so deeply entrenched in their partisan identities, how does that message actually cut through in a deeply red state like Texas? Why do you think this works now when bipartisan economic appeals have so often fallen flat in modern politics?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。我认为媒体习惯于在传统的左右横轴光谱上去思考和描述政治，那实际上是在用水平维度来审视政治。但我认为，得克萨斯州乃至全美各地的普通劳动者，真正感受到的政治是一个**垂直维度**（vertical spectrum）：是自下而上的普通人民对抗高高在上的顶层权贵。 那些身处顶层的亿万富豪寡头、大企业跨国财团以及他们所资助操纵的腐败政客，利用他们在华盛顿特区和奥斯汀州议会的权势，制定有利于他们自身、却损害我们所有普通人的游戏规则。他们不仅操纵了经济系统，还通过控制社交媒体和大众传媒，日复一日地煽动愤怒、挑起对立，让我们把彼此视为敌人。因为他们心知肚明：**我们普通民众的团结是对他们财富与权力的最大威胁**。 他们极力阻止我们意识到，团结我们的东西远远多于分裂我们的东西。因为一旦我们看清了这一点，我们就会打破党派、种族、性别、宗教和地域文化的界限联合起来，把属于我们自己的权力夺回来。而这，正是你此刻在得克萨斯州实实在在目睹正在发生的事情。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the media tends to think of politics and describe politics on a leftto spectrum, and that's viewing it horizontally. But I think working people in Texas and across this country experience politics vertically: it's the bottom against the top. The billionaires, the corporate monopolies, and the corrupt politicians they buy off in Austin and Washington have rigged the rules of the economy in their favor and against everyone else. And they use their money and power, and they buy up media and social media platforms, to keep us divided. They spend so much time making us angry and getting us to see each other as enemies because our unity is a threat to their wealth and their power. And they're trying to keep us from realizing that there is far more that unites us than divides us because they know once we recognize that, we're going to come together across party and race and gender and religion and culture to take power back for ourselves. And I really think that's what you're seeing in Texas as we speak.
### 生活成本危机与深层腐败危机 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 那么让我们深入到你竞选的具体政策层面。根据你与选民的面对面交流，在政策层面上，究竟是什么在以这种跨党派的方式与选民产生最强烈的共鸣？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, let's get specific in your campaign. What in your mind and based on your conversations with voters on a policy level is most connecting in this bipartisan way?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 无论我走到全州的哪个地方，我听到的都是正在这个经济体制下苦苦挣扎、快要被淹没的得州人的呼声，他们甚至连最基本的生活开销都快要负担不起了。 因此我认为，那些正在推高超市收银台结账价格的腐败关税政策，是大家最关切的心头之痛；那场正在推高加油站汽油和柴油价格的中东新冲突，也是大家每天面对的沉重压力。我以前就说过，我们之所以面临**生活成本危机**（affordability crisis），根本原因在于我们面临着一场**深层腐败危机**（corruption crisis）。这些最新局势的发展，成了压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草。普通工薪阶层的实际工资已经停滞了整整五十年，辛勤劳动得不到应有的回报。而最近的物价飞涨更是让跨越整个政治光谱的各界民众都忍无可忍。他们已经准备好迎接变革——不是微不足道的渐进式修补，而是大刀阔斧的全面变革与系统性变革。
Original English **James Talarico**: I mean, everywhere I go across the state, I hear from Texans who are drowning in this economy and who can't afford the basics. And so, I think these corrupt tariffs that are raising prices in the checkout line are top of mind. I think this new corrupt war in the Middle East that is driving up gas and diesel prices at the pump is top of mind. I've said before that we have an affordability crisis because we have a corruption crisis. And so I think these recent developments are kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. People's wages have been stagnant for five decades now. Work has not been rewarded. And now these recent price spikes have left people across the political spectrum fed up. And they are ready for change. Not incremental change, but wholesale change and systemic change.
### 遏制寡头政治与系统性制度改革 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 那让我们来具体谈谈你会对此采取什么措施。你一直在大声疾呼的这种全面变革，正在吸引相当数量的共和党选民和民主党选民。你谈到了很多关于亿万富豪的问题。在这次竞选中你会怎么做？在改变这个体制方面，究竟有哪些主张引起了如此强烈的反响？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, let's talk about specifically what you would do about that: the wholesale change that you are talking a lot about that is appealing to a fair number of Republican voters and Democratic voters. You're talking a lot about billionaires. What would you do in this campaign? And what has been resonating about changing that system?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的。世界上最富有的人和他的超级政治行动委员会（Super PAC）之所以斥资整整2亿美元企图击败我，原因就在于他们深知：我绝不接受任何企业政治行动委员会的政治献金。过去从未接受过，今后也永远不会接受。而且他们知道，我竞选的核心纲领就是推动系统性的政治制度改革： * **全面取缔企业政治行动委员会和超级政治行动委员会**，让亿万富豪无法再花钱买断我们的选举； * **严禁国会议员在任期内交易股票**、借职务之便中饱私囊； * **推翻‘公民联合会案’判决**（Citizens United），彻底将巨额黑钱驱逐出我们的政治体制； * **在全美所有州全面取缔选区重划作弊**（gerrymandering），不论红州蓝州一律禁止，恢复自由与公平的民主选举； * **推行国会任期限制**（term limits）。我自己已经庄严承诺：如果当选，我在美国联邦参议院最多只连任两届。我希望将这一规则推广到每一位参议员和每一位国会议员身上，让他们牢记来到这里是为了服务大众，届满后就应当让位给其他人来行使公仆之责。 这些系统性改革才是真正重建一个‘民有、民治、民享’的政府的根本途径，而不是像我们现在这样，任由其沦为一个‘寡头所有、寡头所治、寡头所享’的富豪专制政府。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah. I mean, the reason the richest man in the world and his super PACs are spending $200 million to defeat me is because they know I don't take corporate PAC money. Never have, never will. And they know that I'm running on systemic political reform: banning corporate PACs and super PACs so billionaires can't buy our elections; banning members of Congress from trading stocks and enriching themselves while they're in office; overturning Citizens United and getting this big money out of our politics. I'm also running on banning gerrymandering in every state in the union, red states and blue states alike, so we can have free and fair elections again. And I'm also talking about term limits. I've already pledged to only serve two terms in the US Senate, and I want to make that true for every senator and every member of Congress—that they are in this to serve, and then they should make room for someone else to have the opportunity to serve. These are the kind of systemic reforms that I think could rebuild a government of, by, and for the people instead of what we have now, which is a government of, by, and for the billionaires.
### 短期痛点：油价方案与中东冲突 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 这些改革目标非常宏大，但它们看起来更像是长期的政治体制改革规划。我很好奇，面对某些非常具体、真实且迫在眉睫的短期痛点，比如油价，你的应对方案是什么？你打算如何平抑高昂的油价？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Those are ambitious and those seem like long-term programs of political reform. I'm curious what your approach is to something very specific and real and short-term: gas prices. How are you going to lower gas prices?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我已经提出了一项明确的行动方案：**立即暂停征收联邦汽油税和联邦柴油税**。这将使每加仑汽油的价格立即为得州居民下降18美分，并且每年能为使用柴油的卡车司机和农场主节省大约200美元。 但这只是一项治标的权宜之计。真正能够从根本上降低能源价格的唯一途径，是终结这场灾难性的中东冲突。因此我认为，我们必须立刻结束这场军事灾难。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, I've already laid out a plan to suspend the federal gas tax and the federal diesel tax, which would immediately drop the price of gas by 18 cents a gallon for Texans, and it would save those who use diesel about $200 a year. Now, that's a stopgap measure. The only thing that's going to really lower these prices is ending this disastrous war in Iran. And so I think we got to end this military disaster.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 你会采取什么行动来结束这场战争？你认为现任的联邦参议员们尽到责任了吗？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: What would you do to end this war? I mean, and do you think current senators have done enough?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 完全没有。我认为我们的政府迫切需要恢复**权力制衡**（checks and balances）。立法机构必须重新确立宪法赋予国会的权威。在我们的美国宪法中，唯有国会拥有且应当行使宣战权。因此，《战争权力法案》（War Powers Act）以及我们手中所掌握的一系列法定立法杠杆，完全能够且应当被用来遏制行政权力的肆意越权。目前这场中东战事就是一个行政越权的典型恶例。因此我认为，当务之急是全面恢复这种分权制衡机制，严厉阻断白宫行政分支的滥权擅权行为。
Original English **James Talarico**: No. I mean, I think we need checks and balances back in our government. I think the legislative branch has to reassert its authority here. I mean, Congress in our constitution is the one that can and should declare war. And so the War Powers Act—there are levers that are at our disposal to rein in these overreaches by the executive branch. And this war in Iran is a perfect example of that. So I think what we desperately need is to restore those checks and balances and check the overreaches of the executive branch.
### 经济纲领、废除阻挠议事与政治僵局 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 如果回到经济政策，我很好奇你的政策议程在一个以低税收、有限政府和亲商政策为传统且相当受欢迎的州是如何落地的。在你竞选所主张的政策中，包括提高最低工资标准、普及普惠性儿童保育、免除医疗债务、以及对亿万富翁征收更高的税收。对于一个试图吸引这样一个秉持温和主义传统的红州选民的竞选平台来说，这似乎是一个潜在更具风险的组成部分。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I'm curious if I can go back to economic policy, how your agenda is landing in a state where low taxes, limited government, pro business policies have been the tradition and they've been, you know, fairly popular. Among the things you have campaigned on are raising the minimum wage, adopting universal childcare, cancelling medical debt, higher taxes on billionaires. that would seem potentially like a riskier element of a platform that seeks to appeal to a state of such moderation.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 如果你仍然困在非左即右的旧框架里，那么强调所谓的‘温和路线’似乎合情合理。但当你从垂直维度的框架去思考时，就很容易理解为什么有那么多普通工薪阶层、那么多农场主和牧场主、那么多小企业主，都对这个只为全球最富裕的阶层和超级跨国垄断财团服务的被操纵的体制感到深恶痛绝。我认为许多得州人觉得这些举措完全是符合**常识**（common sense）的。那根本不极端，那正是实实在在的主流民意。 因此，我所倡导的主张，是为了打破这个正在全州乃至全美伤害无数普通百姓的倾斜体制。至于你刚才提到我之前谈到的那些系统性改革看起来像是‘长期目标’——我想说，只要我们**废除阻挠议事规则**（filibuster），这些改革就根本不需要等上漫长的时间。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, I mean, if you're still stuck in a left versus right framework, then moderation makes sense. But I think when you're thinking in a vertical framework, it's easy to understand how so many working people, so many farmers and ranchers, so many small business owners are just fed up with a rigged system that only benefits the wealthiest people and the biggest corporations in the world. And I think a lot of people in Texas think that is pretty common sense. That that's not extreme. That is middle of the road. And so, you know, I think what I'm advocating for is is something that can help unrig this system that has been hurting so many of us across the state, across the country. And I will say the systemic reforms I talked about earlier, you described them as long-term. I think if we abolish the filibuster, those reforms don't have to be long term.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 你确实希望能废除参议院的阻挠议事规则？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: And you do wish to abolish the filibuster.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 是的，我坚决支持。我认为在这个国家，多数派理应有权进行治理。阻挠议事规则在我们的美国宪法中根本没有任何依据。它是吉姆·克劳种族隔离时期的历史残留物，多年来一直阻碍着这个国家取得必须的前进与进步。
Original English **James Talarico**: I do. I do. I I think the majority should be able to govern in this country. The filibuster is not in our constitution. It's a Jim Crow relic and it has prevented us from making necessary progress in this country.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 向大家解释一下，你的意思是希望参议院能够通过简单的51票多数来通过法案进行立法，而不是需要60票门槛，不再受到阻挠议事的封杀。但共和党那一方会告诉你，他们之所以没有废除阻挠议事，是因为他们害怕民主党掌握多数时会用它来做些什么。但你的意思是，如果未来政党轮替，你并不担心共和党人反过来会利用这一机制干什么。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Just to explain, you want the Senate to be able to legislate through 51 votes majority of the body, not 60, not be blocked by filibuster, which the other side would tell you, Republican side, they have not done because they fear what Democrats would do with it. But you're saying you're not worried what Republicans might turn around and do with it if it changes.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我相信多数派必须能够进行有效治理。我认为选民有权切切实实地看到他们选票所产生的实际施政成果，无论我个人赞同还是反对那些具体政策。因为现在正在发生的情况是：正是由于阻挠议事机制的存在，再加上整个系统性的政治腐败，我们陷入了彻底的**立法瘫痪与政治僵局**（gridlock）。什么问题都得不到解决，没有任何现状被改变。 因此，这个国家的广大民众才会在两个主要政党之间剧烈地左右摇摆，因为无论他们选谁上台，最后都一事无成。我想指出的是，如果给很多得州民众的选择仅仅是‘破败的现状’与‘煽动家’（demagogue）二选一，绝望的人们必然会孤注一掷选择煽动家，去选择那个看似可能带来某种剧烈变化的人。我宁愿建立一个能够切实兑现民生变革的健康政治体制，而不是继续在政治中纵容和催生煽动家。而阻挠议事规则，正是阻止我们实现这种切实进步的最主要绊脚石。
Original English **James Talarico**: I believe the majority should be able to govern. I think voters deserve to see the results of their vote whether I agree with it or not. I mean, what's happening right now is because of the filibuster and then because of the systemic corruption, we are in gridlock. Yeah. And nothing is changing. And so the people of this country are are swinging wildly between the two parties because nothing happens no matter who they elect. And I will just say if the choice for a lot of people in Texas, if the choice is status quo and a demagogue, they're going to choose a demagogue. They're going to choose what's going to maybe bring some change. And and I'd rather create a system where we can actually deliver that change without, you know, emboldening demagogues in our politics. And I think the filibuster is the primary obstacle uh to being able to deliver that progress.
### 投票履历与跨党派支持的深层原因 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 嗯……你在这次竞选中呼吁大量的共和党人为你投票。我很好奇，你自己曾经投票给过共和党人吗？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Hm. You're asking a lot of Republicans to vote for you. And so I am curious, have you voted for a Republican?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 在学区教育委员会和市议会这类无党派色彩的地方基层选举中，我肯定投票支持过共和党人。
Original English **James Talarico**: Most likely in in the nonpartisan races for school board and city council, I have certainly voted for Republicans.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 但对于国会众议院或联邦参议院的选举呢？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: But for Congress, for Senate,
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 没有。我想在得克萨斯州有党派标签的重大公职竞选中，我没有投给过共和党人。这是因为——至少在我有选民资格的成年岁月中——我们真切见证了极端主义对得州共和党的彻底绑架。你知道，当我开始在我们州拥有投票权的时候，乔治·W·布什（George W. Bush）或老布什（George H.W. Bush）那个时代的温和保守派早已在得州政坛不复存在了。 而我认为，这恰恰就是为什么有如此众多的保守派——我指的是小写‘c’开头的真正传统意义上的保守派人士——正在坚定加入我们这场政治运动的原因。目前全州已经有超过20位现任和前任共和党籍民选官员公开为我背书支持。 因为他们清醒地看到：**长期的一党专政必然导致极端主义和政治腐败**。在得克萨斯州，共和党长达三十余年的一党垄断统治无可争辩地导致了这种恶果。不过我也认为，虽然我从未在民主党一党独大的蓝州生活过，但在某些蓝州同样可以看到由于长期缺乏竞争而导致的漠视普通工薪阶层诉求、行政效率低下等问题。但在得克萨斯，自从我上幼儿园以来的三十多年里，这种一党垄断所催生的极端与腐败，正是我在从事公共服务的整个职业生涯中一直在坚决投票反对、不懈斗争的对象。
Original English **James Talarico**: no. Uh I don't think I've voted for a Republican in a partisan race uh in Texas. Uh, and that's [clears throat] because in, you know, in my lifetime, at least since I've been old enough to vote, we have really seen extremism grip the Republican party in our state. You know, the days of George W. Bush or George HW Bush were gone by the time I was voting in our state. And that's, I think, exactly why so many conservatives, small C conservatives, are joining this movement of ours. uh we've been endorsed by 20 I think it's actually more than 20 now current and former Republican officials across the state uh because they see that one party rule always leads to extremism and corruption and that's certainly happened in Texas with Republican one party rule but I I also I think it it probably happens I've never lived in a one party blue state but I think you can see in one party blue states a lack of delivering for working people a lack of responsiveness so I I that one party rule in Texas over over three decades since I was in kindergarten has really led to an extremism and a corruption that I've I've voted against and worked against my entire time in in public service.
### 信仰、道德价值观与政教分离 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 当我们讨论你在这场选战中对共和党选民的吸引力时，我不禁想知道，你认为你的个人品格与个人履历在多大程度上是这种吸引力的核心？当我思考你在这场竞选中取得的成功——尤其是赢取共和党人青睐时——我注意到了你对宗教信仰的自如表达，特别是对**基督教信仰**的深刻阐述，以及它在你的竞选活动中所占据的显著位置。感觉在过去的15到20年里，共和党人似乎垄断了对基督教的诠释权。我的意思是，社会上存在众所周知的‘基督教右翼’，但几乎不存在所谓的‘基督教左翼’。你是否认为民主党人一直以来都过于迟疑和退缩，不愿像你现在这样，基于信仰的道德维度来打动和凝聚选民？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I wonder how much when we talk about your appeal in this race to Republicans, you think your character and biography is at the core of that appeal. When I think about your success in this race, especially with Republicans, I think about your fluency with religion, specifically with with Christianity and the prominence it plays in your campaign. It feels like over the past 15 to 20 years, Republicans have laid claim to Christianity. I mean, there's a Christian right. There's not really a Christian left. Do you think Democrats have been too reluctant to do what you're doing, which is to appeal to voters on faith-based grounds?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我认为两个主要政党的候选人都应该展现真实的自我。他们应当做真实的自己，并真诚地向大众分享他们行动背后的‘为什么’（their why）。如果那源于信仰——就像对我而言一样——那么候选人就应当坦诚地谈论它。据我所感，很多民主党人之所以在谈论信仰时感到极不自在，我认为是因为我党内的一些人犯了一个严重的认知错误：他们错误地将**政教分离**（separation of church and state）与信仰和政治的完全剥离混为一谈。 政教分离是一项至关重要的宪法原则，它确保国家机器绝不能强推某种宗教，教会也绝不能接管政府统治。但那绝不意味着公共政策不能由深厚的道德价值观所驱动。事实上，美国历史上每一次伟大的道德进步运动——从废奴运动、妇女普选权运动，到二十世纪六十年代由马丁·路德·金牧师领导的民权运动，再到农业工人联合会为基层劳工权益发起的罢工抗争——无一例外都是由深沉的信仰与道德力量所引领和驱动的。 基督教的核心教义绝不是关于排斥、仇恨或维护富豪阶层的特权，而是关于爱人如己、照顾贫困软弱者、匡扶正义、释放被压迫者。当你把这种真实的福音展现出来时，普通的得州信徒会产生强烈的共鸣。因为他们突然发现，原来自己的信仰不仅不要求他们盲从于维护寡头利益的极右翼政治，反而呼召他们站出来，为了社区中每个弱小兄弟姐妹的尊严与福祉而奋斗。
Original English **James Talarico**: I mean I think candidates in both parties should show up as they are. They should be themselves and they should share their why. And if that's faith like it is for me, then candidates should talk about it. From what I can sense is that a lot of Democrats have felt uncomfortable talking about faith. And and I think the mistake that people in my party have made is that they they confuse the separation of church and state with the separation of faith and politics. Separation of church and state is a vital American principle, protecting our religious freedom and preventing a theocracy. But the separation of faith and politics would mean stripping our politics of morality. And throughout American history, every major moral movement—from abolition to women's suffrage to the civil rights movement led by the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., to the farmworkers' movement—has been fueled by deep moral and religious conviction. Christianity at its best is about loving your neighbor, caring for the poor, and lifting up the vulnerable. When you lead with those authentic moral values, everyday people of faith respond because they recognize that true faith calls us to serve and protect one another.
### 品格反差还是政策对决：弹劾与治理的抉择 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 那么，在这场与肯·帕克斯顿的参议员对决中，这种反差究竟在多大程度上是个人品格和道德诚信的反差，又在多大程度上是具体公共政策的反差？我的意思是，对于许多在场外观察这场得州大战的全国选民来说，他们看到的是你作为一个诚实、有信仰的公立学校教师的形象，与一个官司缠身、因多项重罪指控被起诉、甚至曾被共和党控制的得州众议院提起弹劾的对手之间的道德决战。这场选举的核心究竟是品格，还是具体的民生政策？你希望选民将其视为对腐败政客的审判，还是这根本不是你希望这场选战被定义的焦点？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: So how much of this race is about that contrast in character and morality versus the contrast in terms of policy? For so many watching this race across the country, it looks like a clear referendum on integrity: you as an honest former teacher grounded in faith, versus Ken Paxton, an attorney general who has been indicted for felony securities fraud, embroiled in endless federal investigations, and impeached by his own party in the Texas House. Is this race ultimately about morality and character, or is that not at all what you want this to be about?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 我不确定这两者之间究竟有什么截然不同的界限。在我看来，我们的政策本身就是我们道德价值观的直接投射。当你支持让妇女在急诊室停车场里生命垂危时，那是一种道德选择；当你削减公立教育经费、任由贫困社区的孩子坐在空调机箱上上课，转而把税款作为代金券送给富人时，那是一种道德选择；当你收受亿万富豪的巨额黑金、在议会和法院为他们的垄断利益保驾护航，而放任工薪家庭在不断飞涨的物价和医疗账单前破产时，那更是一种极度腐化堕落的道德选择。 因此，腐败问题既是品格问题，也是切切实实的政策问题。腐败并不是孤立存在的道德污点，腐败直接导致了民生灾难。正因为政客被富豪收买，才有了推高物价的腐败关税；正因为决策者与军工复合体勾结，才有了无休止的海外战争与飞涨的油价；正因为制度被金钱完全腐蚀，民众最迫切需要的医疗改革和教育投资才迟迟无法推进。品格与政策在这里完全融为一体，无法割裂。
Original English **James Talarico**: I'm not sure what the difference is between those two things. You know, I think our policies are a reflection of our values. When you support policies that leave women bleeding out in parking lots, that's a moral failure. When you starve neighborhood public schools while giving tax breaks to billionaires, that is a reflection of your character. When you take millions from corporate donors and then do their bidding at the expense of working families who can't afford insulin or groceries, that is both a corruption of character and a disastrous policy choice. Corruption is not an abstraction; it has real, painful consequences for people's daily lives. So the contrast between our campaigns is a contrast of integrity, but integrity manifests directly in whose side you are fighting for."
### 执政优先项：反腐败与降低生活成本 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 如果你们在这次竞选中获胜，你进入参议院后最核心的执政授权（mandate）会是什么？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, my mandate, if we're successful in this race, will be to take on corruption and lower costs. Uh those are the two things that I think are top of mind for Texans and for Americans: taking on the systemic corruption that is keeping our government from working for us, and lowering the cost of living so that people who work hard can get ahead.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 对有些人来说，这听起来可能就像是‘先弹劾，再立法’。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: That might sound to some people like impeach and then legislate.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 作为一名得州州立法委员，我曾经亲自参与过弹劾听证会。非常讽刺的是，那场弹劾恰恰是针对我现在竞选所面对的同一个对手肯·帕克斯顿。早在与肯·帕克斯顿竞选参议员很久之前，我就在当时将那一票定性为我作为公职人员所投下的最重要的一票，因为我们是在投票罢免一名由民选产生的在任公职官员——这是一项极其严肃的宪法责任，任何时候都不应该被党派化对待。 我在那次弹劾表决中忠实履行了我的宪法职责。如果未来在美国联邦参议院面临针对任何联邦官员的弹劾动议或弹劾审判，我将作为陪审员和法官，以极其审慎的态度全面评估事实与证据，并据此凭良知投下神圣的一票。但我绝对不会在一期播客节目中去预先评判或预先裁定一场未来的弹劾审判。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, again, I as a state lawmaker, I sat in an impeachment hearing. It's ironically against the person I'm running against. Yes. Um, and I characterized it at the time, this is long before the Senate race against Kim Paxton. I characterized it as the most important vote that I was going to cast as a lawmaker because we were voting to remove a dulyeleed public official from office, which is a solemn constitutional responsibility. I did my duty in that impeachment vote, and if an impeachment vote comes up in the US Senate, if I'm a part of an impeachment trial, I will carefully evaluate the evidence and I will vote accordingly. Um but I'm certainly not going to prejudge an impeachment trial on a podcast.
### 特朗普在腐败问题中的角色与选民幻灭 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 明白。但你认为特朗普总统是你所说的这场腐败危机的核心吗？许多人认为白宫目前的种种作为正是腐败的典型源头。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Understood. But do you think President Trump is central to the corruption problem you're talking about? I certainly think that we've seen unprecedented corruption in this administration and I think it angers people in both political parties including some of the president's strongest supporters. Again, people in Texas, including people in my family, voted for President Trump in 2024 because they thought he was going to lower costs.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 他们当时投票给他，以为他真的会去‘排干华盛顿的沼泽’（drain the swamp）；他们以为他会终结海外无休止的战争；他们以为他会彻底公开爱泼斯坦案的档案（Epstein files）。然而，在这一届政府执政一年多之后的今天： * 由于这些腐败的关税政策，超市里的所有生活用品变得更加昂贵； * 由于你刚才所谈论的寡头腐败，华盛顿的政治沼泽不仅没有被排干，反而比以往任何时候都更加庞大； * 我们深陷一场在中东爆发的崭新的、腐败的战火； * 而爱泼斯坦案的全部档案至今仍未被完整解密公开。 因此，在我们的得克萨斯州，甚至在总统最核心的忠实支持者群体当中，普遍蔓延着巨大的被背叛感与幻灭感。
Original English **James Talarico**: They thought he was going to drain the swamp. They thought he was going to end the wars. They thought he was going to release the Epstein files. But more than a year into this administration, everything is more expensive because of these corrupt tariffs. The swamp is bigger than it's ever been before because of this corruption that you're talking about. We have a new corrupt war in the Middle East and the Epstein files have still not been fully released. So, there's a lot of disillusionment in our state, including among the president's core supporters.
### 接力赛的政治哲学：金钱与人民力量的终极对决 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我知道你马上要赶去参加一场大型竞选集会，所以我还有一个最后的问题想问你。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: I have a final question for you as I know you have to go to a rally.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 好的，请问吧。
Original English **James Talarico**: Yeah.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 现在局势千头万绪。假定我刚才在这些情境中所描述的美好假设最终没有实现：你在11月的选举中没能获胜，而候任参议员帕克斯顿——尽管围绕着他有数不清的丑闻——最终还是去了华盛顿；得克萨斯州依然是一片深红；民主党人未能夺下联邦参议院的控制权。在总统民望如此低迷的有利政治气候下，民主党人如果依然无法赢得选战，甚至你依然无法翻转得州，这对你而言意味着什么？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Um there's a lot going on. Let's say everything I've just been describing in these scenarios doesn't come to pass. You do not win in November and Senator Elect Paxton, despite all the scandals that have trailed him, goes to Washington. Texas stays red. Democrats don't take the Senate. What will it say to you that Democrats couldn't win in this political environment when the president is this unpopular? And what would it say that you couldn't win Texas?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 嗯，那将意味着我们在得克萨斯州还有更多繁重艰巨的工作要做，而这项工作在这场竞选结束之后仍将长久持续下去。 无论我们在11月能否取得最终胜利，我们都只是数代得州人为了这片土地的尊严与承诺而奋战的一场**接力赛跑**（relay race）中的一棒。即使我们未能在本次选举中胜出，这项伟大的事业依然会向前推进。我们有望从这次竞选中吸取宝贵的经验教训——明白哪些做法是正确的，也弄清楚哪些弯路是不该走的。而我将为能够在这场更为漫长、更为宏大的人民运动中尽到自己的微薄之力而深感自豪。
Original English **James Talarico**: Well, it'll mean that we have a lot more work to do in Texas and the work will continue long after this campaign. Whether we're successful or not, we are part of a a relay race of Texans who have been fighting for the promise of this state. And even if we're not successful in this election, that work will continue and hopefully we'll learn lessons from from this campaign, lessons on what to do and maybe lessons on what not to do. and uh and I'll be proud to have played that role uh in this much longer and larger movement.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 但这是否意味着，超级金钱最终还是战胜了我们眼下在这些红州所看到的民主党人的前进势头？
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Will it have meant though that money ultimately conquered the momentum that we are seeing the Democrats have in these red states?
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 大金钱确实无比强大，我绝不会粉饰这一点。但我的信仰教会我：在排山倒海的**人民力量**（people power）面前，金钱根本微不足道。 当我们坚定地对身边的邻居、对我们共同推动社会变革的能力寄予信任时，这种力量终有一天会开花结果并赢得胜利。这可能不会在明天发生，可能不会在11月3日那一天立刻实现，甚至可能不会在我们这一代人的有生之年彻底完成；但信仰的真谛，就在于投身并活在一个比个人更加宏大的历史叙事之中。因此，我们将坚定不移地跑好这场接力赛的每一棒，把火炬稳稳传递给继我们之后而来的后来者。总有一天，我们必将赢得最终的胜利。
Original English **James Talarico**: Big money is powerful and I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but my faith teaches me that it is nothing compared to people power. And when we put our faith in our neighbors, in our collective ability to make change, that will one day pay off. It may not happen tomorrow. It may not happen on November 3rd, may not happen in our lifetimes, but faith means living a larger story. And so, we're going to keep running that relay race, and we'll pass it off to the folks who come after us, and one day we will win. [music]
### 采访收尾与国际新闻速览 **迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 好的，詹姆斯·塔拉里科众议员，非常感谢你抽出宝贵的时间接受我们的采访。非常感谢，祝你的集会顺利。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: Well, Representative Hillary Co, thank you for your time. Appreciate it very much. Good luck with [music] your rally.
**詹姆斯·塔拉里科**: 非常感谢你，祝你一切顺利。
Original English **James Talarico**: Thank you. Appreciate you.
**迈克尔·巴尔巴罗**: 我们将稍作休整，马上回来。 以下是今天你还需要了解的另一条重要国际新闻： 周一晚间，法国政府在部分城镇和街区实施了宵禁，试图在遭遇该国数十年来最严重的暴乱和哄抢破坏之后重新恢复社会秩序。面对公众对政府应对骚乱不力的广泛批评，法国内政部长表示，他已向总统**埃马纽埃尔·马克龙**（Emmanuel Macron）递交了辞呈，但马克龙总统尚未接受这一辞呈。 与此同时，这起暴力骚乱事件迅速演变成为激烈的政治争端。距离法国总统大选仅剩数月时间，法国右翼政党‘国民联盟’（National Rally）试图将这场暴力行径描绘为其左翼竞争对手的彻底溃败，尤其是针对‘不屈法国’党（France Unbowed）——该党的总统候选人曾公开声援抗议示威活动。这些抗议活动最初只是针对恶劣的学校教学条件和不断上涨的生活成本所展开的和平抗议集会，但随后迅速蜕变为蒙面煽动分子猛烈冲击政府大楼、打砸抢劫沿街商铺的严重暴力场面。 本期《每日新闻》由戴安娜·温（Diana Win）、莱克西·迪尔（Lexi DL）和埃里克·克鲁普基（Eric Krupky）联合制作；由雷切尔·奎斯特（Rachel Quester）和佩奇·考伊德（Paige Cowed）共同编辑；苏珊·李（Susan Lee）负责事实核查；配乐由玛丽安·洛扎诺（Marian Lozano）和丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）创作；音频工程由克里斯·伍德（Chris Wood）完成。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 创作。特别感谢劳伦·麦加希（Lauren McGahi）。 以上就是今天的《每日新闻》，我是迈克尔·巴尔巴罗。我们明天见。
Original English **Michael Barbaro**: We'll be right back. Here's [music] what else you need [music] another day. France's government ordered curfews in some towns and neighborhoods on Monday night as it tried to reassert control after the country's worst [music] riots and looting in decades. Amid widespread criticism of the government's handling of the riots, France's interior minister said he had offered his resignation [music] to President Emanuel Macron, but that it had not been accepted. Meanwhile, [music] the violence quickly became a political issue. With months to go before a presidential election, France's right-wing party national rally sought to portray the violence as [music] the failure of its left-wing rivals, especially France Unbowed, a party whose presidential candidate has supported [music] the protests. Those protests began as peaceful demonstrations over school conditions and the cost of living, but descended [music] into scenes of masked agitators attacking government buildings [music] and breaking into stores. Today's [music] episode was produced by Diana Win, Lexi DL, and Eric Krupky. It was edited by Rachel [music] Quester and Paige Cowed, fact checked by Susan Lee, contains music by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell, and was engineered [music] by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to Lauren McGahi. [music] That's it for the daily. I'm Michael [music] Borrow. See you tomorrow.