--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-06-08' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyYlOYYI60A speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - legislative-power - primary-election - party-politics - executive-power title: 《The Daily》：共和党国会近期抵制特朗普的举动与政治动因解析 summary: 节目探讨了由共和党控制的国会近期反常抵制特朗普总统的现象。报道指出，因面临中期选举初选干预与民意压力，国会议员在赔偿基金等争议问题上发起抵制，但仍在移民等核心党派议程上保持推进。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: politics-society area: society-thinking project: [] people: - Donald Trump - Michael Barbaro - Julie Davis - Bill Cassidy - John Cornyn - Ken Paxton - Todd Blanche companies_orgs: - The New York Times - Republican Party - Democratic Party - US Congress - Department of Justice products_models: [] media_books: - The Daily - Meet the Press status: evergreen --- ### 节目开场与国会动态 这里是《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·巴尔巴罗。这是《The Daily》。
Original English From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbara. This is the daily.
在或大或小的事情上，由共和党控制的国会开始以前所未有的姿态反抗特朗普总统，从伊朗战争到他动用纳税人的钱补贴盟友的计划，无一例外。今天，国会编辑朱莉·戴维斯将为我们解析：这场反抗是华盛顿新格局的预兆，还是一场转瞬即逝的短暂独立表态？
Original English In ways big and small, the Republican controlled Congress has begun rebelling against President Trump as never before on everything from the war in Iran to his plan to use taxpayer money to pay his allies. Today, congressional editor Julie Davis on whether the uprising is a preview of a new dynamic in Washington or a temporary show of independence that will vanish just as quickly as it arrived.
今天是6月8日，星期一。
Original English It's Monday, June 8th.
朱莉，很高兴见到你。
Original English Julie, it's wonderful to see you.
>> 很高兴见到你，迈克尔。
Original English >> Great to see you, Michael.
>> 感谢你来到节目中，非常感谢。
Original English >> Thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it.
>> 谢谢你邀请我。
Original English >> Thanks for having me.
>> 朱莉，我想说的是——我认为你也不会反对——从特朗普第二任期伊始，大家脑海中普遍存在的一个疑问就是：总统巩固权力的方式，是否基本上让本届国会、让这个共和党控制的国会变得无关紧要了。对吧？对吧？我的意思是，情况看起来非常像是一个本应平权的政府分支，在极其自愿地选择顺从。 我们曾开始追问：国会已经彻底失去作用了吗？而过去10天左右给出的答案似乎发生了改变，现在感觉更像是一个否定的回答：并没有彻底失去作用。
Original English >> I would say, Julie, I don't think you're going to contest this, that from the first moment of Trump's second term, the question on kind of everyone's mind was whether the manner in which the president had consolidated his power had basically rendered this Congress, this Republican Congress irrelevant. Right? Right? I mean, it very much looked like a co-equal branch of government was choosing subservience very willingly. And we started to ask the question, is Congress over? And the answer over the past 10 days or so seemed to change and now it feels more like a no. It's not over.
>> 是的。我是说，我想在特朗普总统第二任期的头几个月里，在国会山，我们其实非常吃惊地看到共和党人在每件事上都对他百依百顺。不仅是不愿在各种事情上向他发起挑战，甚至在一些相当关键的事务上主动交出权力——在支出上、在贸易和关税上、在外交政策上。这些通常都是国会极力捍卫并视为自身专属特权的事情，他们却想尽一切办法拱手让给白宫，甚至干脆完全避免对这些事情进行投票表决。
Original English >> Yeah. I mean, I I think in the first months of President Trump's second term, we were actually surprised on the Hill to see the degree to which Republicans were just deferring to him on everything. not just refusing to challenge him on things, but actively kind of giving back their power on some pretty key things on spending, on trade and tariffs, on foreign policy, things that you typically see Congress jealously guarding as its own prerogatives, finding every possible way to give it over to the White House, and really even just avoiding voting on things altogether.
>> 对吧？简直就像操场上的一个小孩在说：“拿走这个玩具吧。拿走这个玩具。拿走这把铲子。拿走这辆卡车。”
Original English >> Right? It was literally like a kid in the playground saying, "Take this toy. Take this toy. Take this shovel. Take this truck."
>> 没错。在涉及特朗普总统时，我们从共和党人身上看到的确实全是这些表现。但是在过去的几周里，我们看到共和党人展现出了相当罕见且不同寻常的抵抗。他们拒绝就对他而言极为重大的优先立法采取行动，拒绝按照他划定的时间表推进。他们正从法案中剔除某些内容，并迫使行政部门撤回他们不喜欢的提案。
Original English >> Right? That was really all we were seeing from Republicans when it came to President Trump. But in the last few weeks, we have seen some pretty rare and unusual resistance coming from Republicans. They're refusing to act on legislation that's a big priority for him, refusing to move on the timelines that he's set out for them. They're stripping things from legislation and forcing the administration to drop proposals that they don't like.
>> 而在伊朗战争的问题上，他们实际上正在行使自己的权力来对特朗普总统进行反击。
Original English >> And in the case of the war in Iran, they're actually using their power to push back on President Trump.
>> 他们基本上是在反抗。
Original English >> They're basically rebelling.
>> 他们正在反抗。回到你在操场上的比喻，迈克尔，这有点像一群孩子，很多很多个月以来在几乎所有事情上都听爸爸的话，而现在终于开始说：“不，爸爸，我们不会为你做这件事。”
Original English >> They're rebelling. To go back to your playground metaphor, Michael, it's a little bit like a group of kids who have obeyed their daddy for many, many months on pretty much everything and are finally just saying, "No, daddy, we're not going to do this for you."
### 反抗的起因与中期选举初选干预 >> 嗯。这个比喻的补充非常生动。那么，带我们了解一下这场反抗的幕后情况吧——如果我们打算把它称为反抗的话。我们稍后会讨论它的持久性如何，以及它可能会走多远。但我们先来理清它目前为止的发展过程。 表面上看，很多事情似乎都是围绕着武器化基金展开的，即总统近20亿美元的计划，用于赔偿他所声称的因政府过度起诉而受害的人。但我的感觉是，这并不完全是故事的全部。
Original English >> Mhm. That's quite a vivid completion of the metaphor. So, take us behind the scenes of this rebellion, if that's what we're going to be calling it. And we'll get to how durable it is and how far it may or may not go. But let's just understand it to the extent that it has been unfolding. On the surface, a lot of it seemed to revolve around the weaponization fund, the president's nearly $2 billion effort to compensate people he claims are victims of overzealous government prosecution. But my sense is that that's not quite the full story.
>> 是的。这其实在特朗普政府宣布设立该基金之前很久就开始了。这已经酝酿了好几个星期。我认为，这实际上是共和党人先是缓慢地、接着迅速地认清了现实：特朗普总统所做的很多事情，实际上与他们自身的政治利益背道而驰。我们要记住，现在距离中期选举只有几个月的时间了，而特朗普正在共和党初选中介入，反对党团内一些相当受欢迎的现任议员，而这些人正在为自己的政治前途奋力挣扎。嗯。
Original English >> Yeah. It actually started long before the Trump administration announced that they were creating that fund. This has been percolating for many weeks. And it's really, I think, a matter of Republicans sort of slowly and then very quickly waking up to the reality that a lot of what President Trump is doing is actually counter to their own political interests. Let's remember that we are just months away from the midterm elections and Trump is intervening in Republican primaries against some pretty popular members of their caucus who are incumbents who are fighting for their political lives. Mhm.
>> 他介入了路易斯安那州，为一名正在竞选挑战参议员比尔·卡西迪的共和党女众议员背书。卡西迪是参议院卫生委员会的主席，
Original English >> He intervenes in Louisiana, endorses a Republican congresswoman who's running against Bill Cassidy, the senator who's the head of the health committee,
>> 他在1月6日事件之后的弹劾审判中投票认定特朗普有罪，在那之后，他花了数年时间试图讨好特朗普。但特朗普最终决定要除掉他，
Original English >> who has spent years in trying to ingratiate himself with Trump after having voted to convict him at his impeachment trial after January 6th. But Trump ultimately decided he wanted to take him out
>> 而且做到了，
Original English >> and did
>> 他做到了，他做到了。但特朗普总统介入的第二场参议院初选——我认为是更令人刺痛、让共和党人更加愤怒的一场——是在得克萨斯州。在那里，参议员约翰·科宁一直面临着来自总检察长肯·帕克斯顿的挑战。他们进入了决选。那本该是一场势均力敌的竞争。特朗普总统此前一直保持中立，而在初选前几天，他介入并为肯·帕克斯顿背书。总统要这么做的消息，对国会山的共和党人来说犹如当头一棒。他们完全被激怒了，部分原因在于科宁被视为了强得多的候选人，
Original English >> and he did and he did. But the second Senate primary where President Trump intervened and I think the more stinging one that made Republicans a lot angrier was in Texas where Senator John Cornin had been facing a challenge from Ken Paxton, the attorney general. They were in a runoff. It was going to be a competitive one. President Trump had stayed neutral and days before the primary he weighs in and endorses Ken Paxton. And that news that the president was going to do that just hit Republicans on the Hill like a bomb. They were completely irate in part because Cornin was seen as the much stronger candidate
>> 他原本能够在不必花费大量资金、不必真正为此担忧的情况下赢得那个席位，因为在中期选举之年，他们显然还有许多其他的席位需要担忧和捍卫。因此，这直接败坏了共和党人之间的情绪。他们环顾四周，看到特朗普总统的施政议程在选民中变得越来越不受欢迎，看到他所做的事情在他们感觉中完全是为了他自己，而不是为了全党的利益。你知道，共和党人正在两院为保住多数席位而战，他们面临着一场艰苦的战斗。人们开始真切地感觉到，他正在让他们的处境变得更加艰难。
Original English >> who would be able to win that seat without having to spend a lot of money without having to really worry about it cuz there are obviously a lot of other seats that they need to be worrying about defending in the midterm year. So that just soured the mood among Republicans who are sort of looking around, seeing that President Trump's agenda is getting less and less popular with voters, seeing that he's doing things really they feel like are for himself and not for the good of the party. You know, Republicans are fighting to hold on to majorities in both chambers and they have an uphill battle. And there started to be a real feeling like he was making it harder for them.
>> 嗯。而且我应该说明，这两位参议员在他们的共和党同僚中都非常受欢迎。他们被视为行之有效、经验丰富，而且深谙如何做好本职工作。而在特朗普公开为帕克斯顿背书反对科宁的同一天，在每周党内午餐会上，比尔·卡西迪在初选落败后首次归来，获得了共和党人全场起立鼓掌。那有点像是一个时刻，他们在借此表示：“即使你不是特朗普总统的人，你也是我们的人。” 显而易见，这些共和党人开始意识到的是，特朗普正在把中期选举变成围绕他个人的事情，变成围绕复仇的事情，完全不考虑如何对一个试图保持对国会控制权的政党最为有利。最重要的是，在这些共和党人看来，特朗普显然是在对他们的顺从进行这种回报——我的意思是，科宁90%多的时间都与特朗普投票立场一致，卡西迪也是如此——对这种顺从的回报，却是让他们受到惩罚并被迫离开职位。所以，为什么还要继续顺从下去？这基本上开始成为了一个问题，
Original English >> Mhm. And I should say that both of these senators are very popular with their Republican colleagues. They're seen as effective. They're seen as experienced and they know how to do their jobs. And the very same day that Trump came out and endorsed Paxton against Cornin in the weekly party lunch, Bill Cassidy returning for the first time since being defeated in his primary got a standing ovation from Republicans. It was kind of like a moment where they sort of were saying, "You're our guy even if you're not President Trump's. Clearly, what's starting to dawn on these Republicans is that Trump is making the midterms about him, making it about revenge, not at all what's best for a party trying to keep control of Congress. And on top of all this, what Trump is clearly doing in the eyes of these Republicans is rewarding their subservience. I mean, Cornin votes with Trump 90s something% of the time. Same with Cassidy. rewarding that with them being punished and forced out of office. So why should they keep being subservient starts to basically be the question,
### 反武器化基金引发的党内反弹 >> 对吧？问题就在这里。而正是在这种背景下，行政部门在没有事先通知国会山任何共和党人的情况下宣布，他们将设立这个17.76亿美元的“反武器化基金”。行政部门表示，这是为了赔偿那些受到联邦政府迫害的人，其言下之意是针对效忠于特朗普总统的人，可能包括1月6日冲进国会大厦的暴民，他认为这些人受到了政府的委屈和不公正针对。因此，他希望动用联邦资金来向这些人付款。而在共和党人对总统及其决策方式感到所有这种紧张情绪的背景下，
Original English >> right? That is the question. And this is the context in which the administration announces without any advanced word to any Republican on Capitol Hill that they will be forming this anti-weaponization fund of $1.776 billion to the administration says compensate people who have been victimized by the federal government. implication that this is for people loyal to President Trump, including potentially the mob that stormed the capital on January 6th, who he feels have been wronged by the government and unfairly targeted. And so he would like to use federal money to pay these people. And this just sort of in the context of all of this tension
>> 这件事对他们来说犹如当头重击。 我的第一反应是，这根本经不起推敲。这可能是一个你可能会发现存在大量两党质疑这是否是个好主意的领域。
Original English >> that Republicans are feeling toward the president and how he's making his decisions just hits them like a ton of bricks. My first reaction was this doesn't pass the smell test. This might be one area where you might find a lot of bipartisan questioning of whether or not this is a good idea.
>> 这是他又一次绕过国会，以他认为合适的方式使用资金。
Original English >> This is another instance of him going around Congress to use money in the way that he sees fit.
>> 政府将不得不回答很多问题。
Original English >> There are a lot of questions that uh the administration is going to have to answer.
>> 这些人不配得到赔偿。他们中的许多人理应被关进监狱。我的意思是，这简直愚蠢透顶。而且我们别忘了，共和党人在他的弹劾审判中曾努力让他无罪释放。自1月6日以来的数年里，他们一直对他忠心耿耿，但1月6日当天当人们冲击那座大楼时，他们全都在国会大厦里，他们当时全都在逃命。因此，无论是从个人层面还是坦率地从政治层面上讲，他们所有人现在都逐渐意识到，在他们许多人都在竞选的关头，他们将不得不面对选民为这件事进行辩护……
Original English >> These people don't deserve restitution. Many of them deserve to be in prison. I mean, this is just stupid on stilts. And let's not forget, Republicans worked to acquit him at his impeachment trial. They have been loyal to him for years since January 6th, but they were all in the capital on January 6th when people assaulted the building and they were all running for their lives. So, they're all, it's sort of dawning on them both personally and frankly politically, they're going to have to defend this in front of voters at a time when they're many of them are running for
连任。 这看起来真的很糟糕，这不是他们愿意公开支持的事情。这就好比有人把自己给告了，自己跟自己达成了和解协议，而这笔赔偿金却要由我们其他人来出。我可以告诉你，选民根本不喜欢这样。或者，如果他们喜欢，那或许他们也是同谋。 这对他们来说可不仅仅是一次理论探讨，因为他们同时也意识到，特朗普总统给他们设下了一个他惯常设立的最后期限——也就是 6 月 1 日这一期限，要求他们向他呈递他已经催促数月的那项涉及 700 亿美元的庞大移民执法法案。他们正试图推进该法案。但他们开始意识到，由于大家对这笔赔偿基金有如此多的顾虑，而且共和党内部有很强烈的呼声试图采取行动阻击这一想法，导致他们很可能无法凑齐选票来继续推进这项移民法案——
Original English re-election. This is really not a good look and this is not something that they want to have to stand behind. It's as if somebody sued themselves, agreed upon a settlement with themselves, and that's going to be funded by the rest of us. I can tell you the voter doesn't like that. Or if they like it, maybe they're in on it. And this is not just an academic exercise for them because what they also realize is that President Trump has set them one of his famous deadlines, a June 1st deadline for them to deliver him the huge $70 billion immigration enforcement bill that he's been asking for for months. And they are trying to move on to that bill. and they start to realize because they have so many concerns about this fund and there's so much sentiment among Republicans to try to do something to shut this idea down that they're probably not going to be able to get the votes to move forward with the immigration bill
>> 除非他们采取行动，要么让特朗普总统在基金问题上改变主意，要么实际主动起草立法来阻止他这么做。因此，在总统提出设立这项可能向 1 月 6 日骚乱者拨款的恶劣武器化基金的同时，他还在对参议院共和党人说：“通过我想要的这项庞大支出法案，尽管我让你们处处陷入两难境地，
Original English >> unless they do something to either get President Trump to reverse himself on the fund or actually affirmatively write some legislation to block him from doing it. So, at the same time that the president is putting forth this toxic idea of a weaponization fund that might give money to January 6 riers, he's saying to these Senate Republicans, "Pass this gargantuan spending bill I want, even though I'm putting you in a tough position all around,
>> 对吧？”而共和党人起初试图弄清楚是否有办法做到这一点。代理司法部长托德·布兰奇来到国会山，试图缓解他们对该基金的担忧。他与他们举行了闭门会议。
Original English >> right?" And Republicans initially are trying to figure out if there's a way they can do this. Todd Blanch, the acting attorney general, comes to the Hill to try to assuage their concerns about the fund. He meets with them behind closed doors.
>> 你想从托德·布兰奇那里听到什么？
Original English >> What do you want to hear from Todd Blanch?
>> 呃，关于给那些混混的赔偿款。呃，没抱太大指望。听着，
Original English >> Uh about the payout for punks. Uh not a lot. Look,
>> 结果完全谈崩了。
Original English >> and it is just a complete blow up.
>> “这是我在参议院任职期间见过的最激烈的会议之一。用‘火爆’来形容都远远不够。”
Original English >> It's one of the roughest meetings I've seen in my entire time in the Senate. Fiery does not begin to cut it.
>> 很快就很明显了，这对共和党人来说完全行不通。他们取消了对这项法案的投票。他们离开去度阵亡将士纪念日周末，并表示按目前的局势，我们就是无法推进。
Original English >> It very quickly becomes clear that this is a complete non-starter for Republicans. They call off their vote on this bill. They leave for Memorial Day weekend and say the way things stand now, we just we can't move forward.
>> 取消投票在外行人听来像是一种微妙的反抗举动，但当时给人的感觉非常像是一份独立宣言。我们正在取消一项为总统及其标志性议程在移民执法上投入 700 亿美元的投票，
Original English >> And calling off a vote sounds to the lay ear like a subtle act of recalcitrance, but in the moment it felt very much like a declaration of independence. We are cancelling a vote to put $70 billion into immigration enforcement for the president, his signature agenda,
>> 对吧？要知道，在过去，每当总统给他们设定最后期限或要求他们做某事时，共和党人总是立即遵从并照办。因此，他们愿意且真的觉得不得不回家而不去推进这件事，这确实让人感觉是一个真正的转折点。我们此前从未见过他们以这种方式对总统或其立法议程进行抵制。
Original English >> right? And remember that when the president sets them a deadline or asks them to do something, in the past, Republicans have always just snapped right to and done it. So, the fact that they're willing and really feel like they have to go home and not do this, it does feel like a real pivot point. We have not seen them push back on the president or his legislative agenda in this way before.
>> 那么，有什么问题吗？请提问。
Original English >> So, any questions, please?
>> 几个小时后，在椭圆形办公室，特朗普总统公开露面，记者们当面向他发问，比如：
Original English >> And a couple hours later in the Oval Office, President Trump is making an appearance and reporters actually ask him like,
>> “您是否正在失去对参议院的控制？”参议院共和党人。
Original English >> "Are you losing control of the Senate?" Senate Republicans.
>> 您正在失去对参议院的掌控吗？
Original English >> Are you losing your hold on the Senate?
>> “我不知道。我真的不知道。我只能告诉你，我只做正确的事。”
Original English >> I don't know. I really don't know. I can tell you I only do what's right.
>> 特朗普说：“嗯，我不太确定。我不知道。”但在他周围，有越来越多的迹象表明，在涉及他的各项优先事项上，他确实无法让共和党人保持步调一致。正是在这段时间前后，共和党人决定放弃之前在法案中为他的舞厅项目列入的 10 亿美元。我们都知道他有多珍视那个项目。他总是在谈论它。当共和党人希望他谈论经济时，他却总是在谈论那个舞厅项目，
Original English >> And Trump says, "Well, I'm not really sure. I don't know." But all around him there is mounting evidence that he is really not keeping Republicans on line in line on a variety of his priorities. It's right around this time that Republicans decide to drop the billion dollars that they had put in their bill for his ballroom project. We all know how much he cherishes that project. He talks about it all the time. While Republicans wish that he would talk about the economy, he's always talking about the ballroom project,
>> 对吧？
Original English >> right?
>> 他们把那笔钱拿掉了。这对他来说是一个毫不委婉的拒绝，
Original English >> They dropped that. It's a a not so subtle brush off to him,
>> 对吧？他们基本上是在说：“尽管你希望我们悄悄把它塞进法案，但我们实际上要把它拿掉，
Original English >> right? They basically say, "Despite your desire that we slip it quietly into a bill, we're actually going to take it out,
>> 对吧？他们不想为它辩护。他们不想为此投赞成票。”而且在这一赔偿基金问题上，他们确实毫不退让。他们明确表示，如果他们还要继续推进移民法案，这件事情就必须作罢。而在我记忆中，大约在这个时刻发生了一件算得上巧合的事：一家法院裁定，白宫在处理这笔武器化基金上不能采取任何行动，这在某种程度上为这些国会共和党人的反对立场提供了助力，
Original English >> right? They don't want to have to defend it. They don't want to have to vote for it." And they really are not letting up on this payout fund. They make it very clear that this thing has to die if they're going to be able to move forward with the immigration bill. And it's sort of by coincidence around this moment as I recall that a court rules that the White House can't do anything when it comes to this weaponization fund which kind of assists these congressional Republicans in their opposition,
>> 对吧？这为他们的立场提供了一些支持，即政府必须彻底放弃该基金。虽然法院的命令只是暂时的，但也坚定了他们的决心，让他们觉得必须采取措施彻底消除这个问题。事实上，就在几天之内，政府确实在该基金上退步了。司法部放出消息称，他们不会对这项法院裁决提出质疑。而在本例中尤为引人注目的是，即便在白宫表示他们将遵守这项他们显然并不赞同的法院命令之后，共和党人还是更进一步表示：“我们不信任你们。我们不信任白宫的话。我们不相信司法部所声称的会遵守这一点。我们要求公开正式地宣布放弃这件事情，并确保它绝不再出现。”这绝不是我们过去见过的共和党人的做法。正如你所知，他们此前一直非常顺从，给了特朗普总统很大的自由度以及充分的信任，而到了这个时候，这种信任已经荡然无存。随后，托德·布兰奇回到国会山宣誓作证，表示我们不会继续推进该基金。绝无余地。
Original English >> right? It gives them a bit of support for their position that the administration just has to abandon this. Although the court order is only temporary, so it also strengthens their resolve to really be like something needs to be done about this to once and for all get it off the table. And in fact, within a couple of days, the administration does back down on the fund. The Justice Department puts out word that they're not going to challenge this court ruling. And in this case, it was especially notable because even after the White House said they were going to abide by this court order, which they clearly did not agree with, Republicans went a step further and said, "We don't trust you. We don't trust the word of the White House. We don't trust the Justice Department saying they're going to abide by this. We want an on there disavow of this thing and to be assured that it will never return." And that is just not something we have seen Republicans do. They, you know, have been very differential and given President Trump a lot of latitude uh and a lot of benefit of the doubt and that benefit of the doubt is just gone at this point. And then Todd Blanch goes back to Capitol Hill and testifies under oath that we are not moving forward with this fund. Period.
>> 没错。我认为平心而论，如果你要评估过去几周里这场共和党内部反叛达到顶峰时的声势，这就是它的最高水准点。国会共和党人利用他们对总统想要的东西——也就是用于打击移民的资金——所掌握的筹码，彻底封杀了这笔武器化基金。
Original English >> Right. And I think it's fair to say if you're evaluating the strength of this Republican rebellion at its peak over the past couple of weeks, this is the high watermark of it. When congressional Republicans using the leverage they have over something that the president wants, which is this money for the immigration crackdown, kill off this weaponization fund.
>> 对吧？这是共和党人在做民主党一年多来一直声称他们该做的事，即在共和党内部对总统所做的一些事情群情激愤的关头，行使自己的权力，利用手中的筹码对总统进行抵制。
Original English >> Right? This is Republicans doing what Democrats have been saying for more than a year they needed to do, which is use their power, use their leverage to push back on the president at a moment of, you know, pretty potent anger among Republicans about some of the things the president has done.
### 伊朗战争与战争权力决议 >> 当然，那种怒火以及我们正在谈论的这场反叛，并没有止步于武器化基金，因为大约在同一时间出现了另一个主要目标，那就是总统在伊朗的战争。我们将在休息后立即谈论这一话题。 我们马上回来。 朱莉，请解释一下，我们在针对武器化基金时最清晰看到的这种国会共和党人的抵制，是如何在伊朗战争问题上展开的。 几个月来，自特朗普总统在 2 月下旬开始轰炸伊朗以来，民主党人一直在众议院和参议院全院强推这些战争权力表决，这些决议基本上规定，如果总统想继续这场战争，就必须向国会寻求授权。
Original English >> And of course, that anger and this rebellion we're talking about, it doesn't end with the weaponization fund because another big target emerges around this same time, and that is the president's war in Iran. and we'll talk about that right after the break. We'll be right back. So Julie, explain how this Republican push back in Congress that we most vividly saw against the weaponization fund starts to play out with the war in Iran. So, for months now, since President Trump started bombing Iran in late February, Democrats have been forcing these war powers votes on the House and Senate floors, which are essentially resolutions that say the president has to come to Congress for authorization if he wants to continue the war.
>> 它们之所以重要，倒不是真有人认为它们能被签署成法律。显然，特朗普总统曾表示这些决议违宪。任何送达他办公桌的此类决议都会被他否决。但民主党人以及一些对战事如此拖延下去越来越感到不安的共和党人，将其视为真正表达国会对这一行动的怀疑、并真正试图重申国会在战争事务中作用的一种方式；而这同样是共和党人几个月来一直拱手让给总统、未曾试图介入的事情之一。每当出现这类决议时，共和党领导层就会争辩说：“这会束缚总统的手脚。这会削弱他的谈判能力。我们现在不能这么做。国会只需要退后一步。”因此，共和党人一直投票反对，虽然有少数几人倒戈，但都不足以让它真正获得通过，直到党内围绕一系列问题开始酝酿起这种反叛。突然之间，在比尔·卡西迪输掉初选的几天后，参议院又进行了一次战争权力表决。 我们正在关注华盛顿的一条突发新闻：美国参议院刚刚通过了立法。
Original English >> And they're important, not so much because anyone really thinks that they're going to be enacted into law. Obviously, President Trump has said these are unconstitutional. he'd veto any resolution like this that ever reached his desk. But Democrats and some Republicans who are growing increasingly uneasy with how this is dragging on see it as a way of really registering Congress's skepticism about this and really trying to reassert a congressional role in matters of war, which again is one of these things that Republicans have for months just seated to the president and not attempted to involve themselves in. And every time one of these comes up, the Republican leadership argues, "This is going to tie the president's hands. This is going to undermine his ability to negotiate. We can't be doing this right now. Congress just needs to step back." So, Republicans keep voting against it with a few defections, but not enough to actually let this pass until this sort of rebellion starts to bubble up within the party about a range of issues. And all of a sudden, a few days after Bill Cassidy loses his primary, there's yet another War Powers vote in the Senate. We are following some breaking news in Washington where the US Senate just passed legislation.
>> 猜猜是谁改变了立场，与民主党人一起投票坚持要求——
Original English >> And guess who switches his vote and votes with Democrats to insist that
特朗普来国会寻求授权？
Original EnglishTrump come to Congress for authorization?
>> 卡西迪先生，卡西迪先生，我——
Original English>> Mr. Cassidy, Mr. Cassidy, I
>> 比尔·卡西迪，
Original English>> Bill Cassidy,
>> 我其实支持总统最初提出的目标，原本计划是两周。现在显然已经超过两周了。所以直接告诉美国人民，这就是我的立场。
Original English>> I actually support the goals that the president initially laid out and it was going to be two weeks. It's obviously going longer than two weeks. So just tell the American people that's where I am.
>> 这一事实意味着——
Original English>> What does the fact
>> 这足以推动该决议获得通过，参议院现在必须审议并最终对其进行表决。因此，这只是又一个迹象，表明对这场冲突的分歧正在扩大，许多民主党人以及当然还有很多共和党人都将其视为自身的政治负资产，他们觉得白宫或总统在目标是什么、最终结局是什么方面没有对他们坦诚相告。突然之间，几个月来我们听到共和党人隐约提及的某些顾虑，
Original English>> and that is enough to put the resolution over the top and the Senate now has to take it up and has to eventually vote on it. So, it's just another indication that dissent is growing about this conflict that a lot of Democrats and certainly many Republicans see as a political liability for them and they don't feel like the White House or the president has leveled with them on what the goals are, what the endgame is. And all of a sudden, some of these reservations, which we've heard Republicans kind of allude to gently
>> 已经好几个月了，如今正通过表决体现出来，这是一个相当瞩目的时刻。 随后不久，
Original English>> for many months, are manifesting themselves in a vote, which is a pretty remarkable moment. And then before too long,
>> 各位议员将通过电子设备记录投票。各位议员，这是一次5分钟表决。
Original English>> members will record their votes by electronic device. Members, this is a 5minute vote.
>> 一项战争权力决议在众议院被提出，众议院是一个保守得多的机构，领导层对其成员的控制要严格得多。但即便如此，
Original English>> A war powers resolution comes up in the House, which is a much more conservative body where the leaders have a much tighter reign on their people. But still,
>> 赞成215票，反对208票。该共同决议获得通过。
Original English>> the yays are 215 and the nays are 208. The concurrent resolution is adopted.
>> 足够多的共和党人倒戈并加入民主党人阵营，使该决议得以通过。 唯有国会有权宣战。这肯定是我们必须维护的原则，
Original English>> Enough Republicans defect and join Democrats to pass the resolution. Congress alone declares war. That's something that we have to be, you know, certainly protective of
>> 并且实质上表明特朗普必须撤军，或者来国会寻求授权。
Original English>> and essentially say Trump has to withdraw forces or come to Congress for authorization.
>> 我们必须遵守那里的法律。现行法律中有1973年的《战争权力法》。因此，你不能违法。那不是一个选项。
Original English>> We have to follow the law there. There's a law on the books, the War Powers Act of 73. So, you can't violate the law. That's not an option.
>> 关键的跨党派选票来自竞争激烈选区的共和党人。 我们必须考虑各种各样的因素，但我确实真切感受到了家乡选民的遭遇。你知道，我每周都回自己的选区。你知道，我也要给自己的车加油。我有四个孩子。我们要面对——
Original English>> And the key crossover votes came from Republicans who are in competitive districts. There are a variety of considerations that we have to take into account, but I definitely feel what people are experiencing back home. You know, I go back home to my district every single week. You know, I fill up my gas tank, too. I I have four kids. We're taking
>> 他们对战争感到担忧。战争持续得太久了。花费太高了。他们希望看到一个收场结局。
Original English>> They're concerned about the war. It's gone on too long. It's costing too much. They want to see an endgame.
### 共和党党内反弹与联盟分化 >> 有意思。所以摇摆选区的共和党人跨党派与民主党人一同投票，以表达对战争的不满，因为他们担心战争以及随之而来的高油价会导致他们竞选连任失败。这正好印证了你刚才所说的：这场共和党内部反弹的核心，是一种非常强烈的感受，即总统并没有考虑共和党的最佳利益。
Original English>> Interesting. So swing district Republicans are crossing over voting with Democrats to register their disapproval of the war because they worry that the war, the resulting high gas prices are going to cost them re-election. This goes back to what you were saying earlier that at the heart of this Republican rebellion is this very strong sense that the president is not looking out for the best interests of the Republican party.
>> 对吧？这是一位最近几周曾表示在考虑战争问题时并不在乎对美国人财务影响的总统。他不在乎中期选举。而共和党人开始环顾四周说道：那么，这把我们置于何地呢？
Original English>> Right? This is a president who has said in recent weeks that he doesn't care about the financial impact on Americans when he's thinking about the war. He doesn't care about the midterms. And Republicans are starting to look around and say like, well, where does that leave us?
>> 到这时，我们开始看到这里形成了一些有趣的联盟，真正构成了对抗特朗普这一反推行动的中坚力量。你有摇摆选区的共和党人，比如苏珊·柯林斯参议员就是参议院中投票支持战争权力决议的参议员之一。布赖恩·菲茨帕特里克、密歇根州的汤姆·巴雷特则是众议院中的代表。
Original English>> And by this point, we're starting to see some interesting coalitions form here to really be the spine of this push back against Trump. You have swing district Republicans like Senator Susan Collins was among the senators who voted for the war powers resolution in the Senate. Brian Fitzpatrick, Tom Barrett of Michigan were the ones in the House.
>> 紫州议员，
Original English>> Purple state lawmakers,
>> 对吧？但你还有另一派，也就是人们开始戏称为“YOLO党团”的人，
Original English>> right? But you also have this other faction, you know, who are starting to get the nickname of the YOLO caucus that
>> 他们一直受到总统的针对。他们已经被排挤出局，成了跛脚鸭，他们不再有理由对唐纳德·特朗普保持坚定不移的忠诚。比尔·卡西迪已经输掉了连任选举。约翰·科宁输掉了连任选举。在众议院投票支持《战争权力法》的另一位共和党人托马斯·马西，就在几周前的一场初选中输给了一位特朗普支持的挑战者。因此，他们可以说是在与那些在政治上有一切可失去的人联手。他们自己在政治上已经无所顾忌，但结果是一样的，他们都愿意对一位不习惯遭遇抵抗的总统进行反击。
Original English>> have been targeted by the president. They've been ousted and are lame ducks and they don't have a reason anymore to be unbendingly loyal to Donald Trump. Bill Cassidy already lost his re-election. John Cornin lost his re-election. Tom Massie was another Republican who voted for the War Powers Act in the House, lost his primary to a Trump backed challenger just a few weeks ago. So, they're sort of conspiring with these people who have everything to lose politically. They have nothing to lose politically, but the result is the same that they are willing to push back on a president who is not used to being resisted.
>> 对吧？当然，关于所谓的“YOLO联盟”，需要注意的一点是，他们或许已经无所顾忌，但他们在职位上也呆不了多久了。他们可以对抗总统，直到年底任期结束，然后他们不可避免地会被非常效忠总统的人所取代。如果肯·帕克斯顿赢得大选，可能就是像他这样的人，因此他们对总统构成的威胁本质上是暂时的。我们是说——
Original English>> Right? And of course, the thing to note about the so-called YOLO coalition is they might not have anything left to lose, but they're not going to be in their jobs much longer. They can fight the president until their term is up at the end of the year, and then inevitably they're being replaced by people who are very loyal to the president. potentially someone like Ken Paxton if he wins the general election and therefore the threat that they pose to the president is inherently temporary. We're saying
>> 确实如此，而且目前还不清楚他们中的任何人愿意在多大程度上推进此事。对。我们看到卡西迪参议员投票支持《战争权力法》。我们没有看到约翰·科宁在那件事上跨越党派界限。他是一个非常忠诚的共和党人，我们还没有看到他通过投票真正表现出他对总统的不满（如果他有的话）。但事实依然是，对他们来说，无论总统想要什么就顺从什么的做法，其政治诱因已经大大减弱了。
Original English>> absolutely and it's not clear how far any of them are willing to go with this. Right. We saw Senator Cassidy vote for the War Powers Act. We didn't see John Cornin cross party lines on that. He's a very loyal Republican and we have yet to see him really manifest his you know grievance if he feels any toward the president in a vote. But the fact remains that their political incentive to doing whatever the president wants them to do has vastly diminished.
### 抵抗的持久度与立法妥协 >> 嗯，朱莉，我认为这触及了我们在这里必须提出的终极问题，即从长远来看，这种抵制能有多持久和强大？显然，这里同时发生了一系列非同寻常的情况：总统将共和党内深受欢迎的成员从其职位上排挤出去。这让人感到非常愤怒。接着他又把所谓的武器化基金构想抛给了所有人。这让他们感到愤怒。这种情况可不是每天都会发生的。随着时间的推移，国会共和党人有多大可能会重新退回到特朗普已经训练他们接受的这种更为顺从的角色中呢？
Original English>> Well, I think Julie that gets at the ultimate question that we have to ask here, which is how durable and potent is this resistance likely to be in the long term? Obviously, a unique set of circumstances played out here all at once where the president ousted popular members of the Republican party from their jobs. That made folks really angry. Then he dropped this idea of the weaponization fund into everyone's laps. That made them angry. That doesn't happen every day. And how likely are these congressional Republicans over time to snap back into this more subservient role that Trump has conditioned them to take?
>> 对。这是一个极好的问题。这是必须问的问题，而且看一下周四和周五发生的事情很有启发性，当时共和党人终于得以通过了他们的移民法案。我们看到的是，尽管民主党人给了他们机会更进一步，并在法律中明确写明绝不能设立特朗普总统为政治盟友设立的赔偿基金，共和党人却想方设法阻止了这一举动，没有为此投票。这让他们能够确保移民法案这一特朗普总统的首要优先事项保持在推进轨道上。但即使在他们为他送上这一重大胜利的同时，依然有种种迹象表明共和党人如何在某种程度上与特朗普分道扬镳，并寻找与他保持距离的途径。
Original English>> Right. It's it's a great question. It's the question to ask and it's instructive to look at what happened Thursday and Friday where Republicans finally were able to pass their immigration bill. And what we see is that given the opportunity by Democrats to go a step further and actually put it in writing in law that there can never be President Trump's compensation fund for his political allies. Republicans figure out a way to block that, not to vote for that. And that allows them to keep this immigration bill, this top priority of President Trump, on track. But even as they're handing him this big victory, there were all these signs still of how Republicans were sort of parting ways with and finding ways to distance themselves from Trump.
>> 在移民法案通过之前，经历了一连串通宵并持续到周五早上的投票。他们称之为马拉松式修正案表决，期间针对法案提出了一系列修正案，而且在那些提议上出现了一些共和党人的赞成票，
Original English>> Before the immigration bill passed, there was this long series of votes overnight and into Friday morning. They call it a voterama where there were a series of amendments offered to the bill and there were some Republican votes for those proposals
>> 其中包括针对该基金的几项投票，以及一项提出特朗普绝不能将任何联邦资金用于其宴会厅的提议。在民主党提出试图阻止他任命住房局长比尔·皮埃为国家情报总监的提议上也是如此。这是另一件确实激怒了许多共和党人的事情。所有这些提议最终都未能成功写入法案。但共和党人愿意以这种方式投票的事实表明，在他们的队伍中至少存在着某种此前并不真正存在的情绪，去抵制总统对他们的要求，
Original English>> including several votes on the fund and a proposal to say that Trump could never use any federal money for his ballroom. The same was true on a Democratic proposal to try to block him from naming Bill Py, the housing director, as the director of national intelligence. Another thing that had really enraged a lot of Republicans. None of these things ultimately were able to succeed and be added to the bill. But the fact that Republicans were willing to vote the way they did showed that there is at least some mood in their ranks, which hasn't really existed before, to resist what the president is demanding of them,
>> 对吧？
Original English>> right?
>> 我认为这大致就是我们看到他们最终所处的立场。他们不会为了反抗特朗普而愿意破坏自己政党的议程，对吧？他们仍然希望让自己的移民法案以及向选民传达的信息保持在正轨上，因为归根结底，这关乎他们试图做他们认为对自己和党最有利的事情。在许多方面、在大多数方面，他们的议程与他的议程是重合的。但在存在分歧的地方——随着我们越来越临近11月，总统还在不断制造这种分歧——他们就会进行回击和反抗。这标志着这位总统与共和党国会之间关系的新篇章。
Original English>> And I think that's kind of where we're seeing them land. They're not going to be willing to derail their own party's agenda in the service of defying Trump, right? They still want to keep their immigration bill and their message to voters on track because in the end what this really is about is them trying to do what they think is best for themselves in the party. And their agendas overlap with his in many ways in most ways. But where there is some daylight and the president keeps on creating this daylight closer and closer we get to November, they're going to push back and rebel. And that marks a new chapter in the story of this president and the Republican Congress.
>> 好的，朱莉，一如既往非常感谢你。感谢你的时间。
Original English>> Well, Julie, thank you very much as always. Appreciate your time.
>> 谢谢你，迈克尔。彼此彼此。
Original English>> Thank you, Michael. Same here.
>> 在周日接受全国广播公司《与媒体见面》节目采访时，特朗普总统承认了两党反对导致其所谓的武器化基金夭折。该基金已被法院叫停，遭遇了来自共和党人和民主党人的反对——
Original English>> In an interview on Sunday with NBC's Meet the Press, President Trump acknowledged the bipartisan opposition that killed his so-called weaponization fund. It's been blocked by the courts, met with opposition from Republicans and Democrats
>> 国会内的反对，以及民主党人。
Original English>> in Congress and Democrats.
>> 不好意思。主要是民主党人。
Original English>> Excuse me. Mostly Democrats.
>> 主要是民主党人和部分共和党人。
Original English>> Mostly Democrats and some Republicans.
>> 极少数共和党人。
Original English>> Very few Republicans.
>> 但表示
Original English>> But said
他理论上仍然支持这个想法。
Original English he still supported the idea in theory.
>> 嗯，听着，要是由我做主的话。我会付给他们理应得到的那些钱。人们已经被毁了。生活已经被毁了。在采访中，特朗普还试图淡化伊朗战争以及围绕它的日益增多的疑虑。
Original English >> Well, it's look, it was up to me. I'd pay them the kind of money that they deserve. People have been destroyed. Lives have been destroyed. During the interview, Trump also sought to downplay the war in Iran and the growing doubts that surround it.
>> 我把它叫做军事演习，因为大家更愿意这样称呼它。对我们来说这并不是一场大战。确实不是。我们拥有最强大的。
Original English >> I call it a military exercise because people would rather have it called that. It's not a big war for us. It's not. We have the most powerful.
>> 针对该战争的最新版本《战争权力决议》已经在众议院获得通过，目前移交给参议院。根据国会规则，参议院必须在未来几周内通过或否决该决议。 我们马上回来。
Original English >> The latest version of the War Powers Resolution against the war, already passed in the House, now heads to the Senate. Under congressional rules, the Senate must either pass or reject the resolution in the next few weeks. We'll be right back.
### 今日其他要闻 以下是您今天还需要了解的其他内容。 周日，伊朗向以色列发射了弹道导弹，这是自4月初停火开始以来伊朗首次这样做。
Original English Here's what else you need to know today. On Sunday, Iran fired ballistic missiles toward Israel, the first time Iran has done so since a ceasefire began in early April.
周日的袭击是对以色列在黎巴嫩针对真主党（一个由伊朗支持的激进组织）进行的一次致命空袭的回应。以色列表示拦截了所有伊朗导弹，几小时后对伊朗进行了回击。
Original English Sunday's attack was in response to a deadly Israeli air strike in Lebanon that targeted Hezbollah, a militant group backed by Iran. Israel said it intercepted all the Iranian missiles and a few hours later it fired back at Iran.
这一来一回的交火有可能使一场基本上受到遏制的冲突升级，并使美国和伊朗之间数周来进展不顺的和谈进一步复杂化。
Original English The back and forth threatens to escalate a conflict that has been largely contained and further complicates peace talks between the United States and Iran that have sputtered for weeks.
今日节目由 Chris Benderev、Mary Wilson、Anna Foley 和 Olivia Nad 制作。由 Rachel Quester 和 Rob Zipco 编辑，配乐来自 Pat McCusker、Dan Powell、Alicia Baube 和 Marian Lozano。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 创作。
Original English Today's episode was produced by Chris Benderev, Mary Wilson, Anna Foley, and Olivia Nad. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Rob Zipco and contains music by Pat McCusker, Dan Powell, Alicia Baube, and Marian Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly.
本期节目工程由 Chris Wood 负责。
Original English This episode was engineered by Chris Wood.
《The Daily》今天的内容就到这里。我是 Meccao。明天见。
Original English That's it for the daily. I'm Meccao. See you tomorrow.