---
author: Big Think
date: '2026-11-12'
guest: ''
layout: post.njk
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxXAmPcx9C0
speaker: Big Think
tags:
  - sports-science
  - biomechanics
  - human-potential
  - athletic-performance
  - innovation
title: 耐克首席科学官马修·纳斯：探索人体运动极限与运动科学创新
summary: 耐克首席科学官马修·纳斯分享了耐克运动研究实验室如何通过生物力学、生理学和神经科学探索人体潜能。他探讨了女性运动员前交叉韧带损伤与运动内衣的热负荷问题，回顾了破二项目中跑鞋减重、缓震与碳板结合带来4%跑步经济性提升的系统效应，指出科技创新不断拓展人类的能力边界。
insight: ''
draft: true
series: ''
category: tech-trends
area: tech-engineering
project: []
people:
  - Matthew Nurse
companies_orgs:
  - Nike
  - Nike Sport Research Lab
products_models: []
media_books: []
status: evergreen
---
### 人体认知的局限与复杂性

你知道，自人类诞生之初，我们就一直对自己的人体着迷。你可以追溯到洞穴壁画，或是人们切开头骨进行探索的黑暗时代，再到今天我们不断试图理解自身。

然而，人们可能会惊讶于我们对人体的了解仍然如此之少。尽管我们懂了很多，它却持续暴露出我们的无知。你刚学到一些东西，就会冒出两个甚至三个新问题。

科学有时可能是还原论的，但现实是，你在身体某个部位做出的任何改变，都会在身体其他部位产生复合效应。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
You know, since the dawn of humanity,
we have always been
fascinated by our bodies.
You can go back to cave
paintings or the Dark Ages
where people's skulls were
being cut open to explore,
to today where we're constantly
trying to understand ourselves.
And yet people might be surprised at how
little we still know about the human body.
As much as we know, it continues
to expose our ignorance.
As soon as you learn something,
two more questions arise
or three more questions arise.
You know, science can
sometimes be reductionistic,
but the reality is everything
you change in the body
has compounding effects in
other areas of the body.
</details>

### 从产品本身转向“产品对人体的影响”

在耐克，我们的宗旨是挑战人们认为人类可能达到的极限。我们仍在探索人类努力的极限，以及运动中的人意味着什么。

我叫马修·纳斯（Matthew Nurse），是耐克的首席科学官，我有幸在耐克运动研究实验室（Nike Sport Research Lab）与一支优秀的团队共事。

我和大多数科学家学习技能的途径一样，是通过学术界来到耐克的。我在这里工作了23年。我年轻时并没有在一家鞋业公司工作的抱负，但我一直热爱医学、生物学，以及医学科学与工程、运动的结合。所以当你来到这里、亲眼目睹并体验到它时，你很难拒绝。

耐克创立于这样一种理念：只要你拥有身体，你就是一名运动员。我刚来这里的时候，大家关注的核心是：我们如何制造出帮助运动员变得更出色的鞋类和服装？

起初，这个实验室和许多其他类似的实验室往往真正聚焦于：人类或运动员对产品做了什么？但随着时间的推移，我们开始转变这种讨论的方向，不再仅仅关注人类对我们的产品做了什么，或者运动员对我们的产品做了什么，而是转向：我们的产品究竟对运动员产生了什么作用？我们的产品如何让他们变得更出色？大约15年前，这对我们来说是一次根本性的转变，它真正加快了我们这里的研发与创新的步伐和规模。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
Here at Nike,
we're about pushing the limits of
what people think is humanly possible.
We're still understanding
the limits of human endeavors
and what it means to be a human in motion.
My name is Matthew Nurse.
I'm the Chief Science
Officer here at Nike,
and I have the privilege of working
with an amazing team in the
Nike Sport Research Lab.
I got to Nike by way of academia,
like the way most scientists
learn their craft.
I've been here for 23 years.
I didn't have aspirations when I was
young of working in a shoe company per se,
but I always had a love
of medicine and biology
and medical science with
engineering and sport.
And so when you get to this place
and you see it and you experience it,
it's hard to say no.
Nike was founded on this
notion of if you have a body
you're an athlete,
and when I first got here
it was very much, how do we make footwear
and apparel that helps athletes be better?
Initially this lab and a lot
of other labs like it tended
to be really focused on, what do
humans or athletes do to product?
But over time,
we started to shift that conversation
away from not just what do humans do
to our products or athletes
do to our products,
but what do our products
actually do to athletes?
How do our products make them better?
And that was a fundamental
shift for us about 15 years ago,
and it really accelerated sort of the pace
and scale of both the research
but the innovation here.
</details>

### 多维度科学方法与量化指标

人体的美妙之处在于，总会有下一个问题，总会有下一个挑战，总会有另一个尚未解开的人类潜能版本。

因此，我们极少把产品本身作为切入点。我们考虑的不是下一双鞋是什么，我们考虑的是疲劳，考虑的是表现，考虑的是损伤，考虑的是信心。你必须始终通过多维度的视角来看待它。

当我们思考科学方法时，它是一个揭示新真相的过程，是一个拓展创新的过程。在运动研究实验室所做的一切，我们都在努力去理解运动员。我们采集数据，不论是运动数据、生理数据、神经数据，甚至仅仅是说话的声音。我们如何以一种能够量化的方式去实现它？正如俗话所说，如果你能衡量它，你就能改进它。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
The beauty of the body is
there's always another problem,
there's always another challenge,
there's always another version of human
potential that has yet to be solved.
And so it's really rare that we start
with a product as the opportunity.
We don't think about what's the next shoe.
We think about fatigue.
We think about performance.
We think about injury.
We think about confidence.
You have to always look at it
through a multidimensional lens.
You know, when we think
about the scientific method,
it's a process for uncovering new truths.
It's a process for expanding innovation.
Everything we do in
the Sport Research Lab,
we try and understand athletes.
We capture data, whether
that's movement data,
whether that's physiological,
whether it's neurological,
or even just spoken word.
How do we do it in a way
that we can quantify it?
And if you can measure it, you know,
as the saying goes, you can improve it.
</details>

### 女性运动员损伤与运动内衣挑战

我现在非常关注的一件事是运动损伤，尤其是女性运动员的损伤。女性遭遇前交叉韧带（ACL）损伤的风险高于男性，发生损伤的几率是男性的三到五倍。

前交叉韧带损伤是由多重因素造成的。尤其在女性运动员身上，人们研究了膝盖周围的骨骼结构；他们研究了女性体内荷尔蒙波动的变化可能如何改变膝关节韧带的松弛度；一直深入到动作模式和动作发育的层面。在历史上，我们对待男孩和女孩的方式有所不同，我们在婴儿时期让他们如何活动，会对他们随着年龄增长而形成的运动方式和身体发育产生影响。因此，去解决这些重大挑战——如果你为她解决了，你就为所有人解决了。

如果我们思考在耐克如何看待科学：我们通过生物力学的视角来看待它，即研究身体的运动和负荷；我们通过生理学的视角来看待它，即探究你身体内部的调节机制以及你对不同刺激如何反应；我们通过感知和神经科学的视角来看待它。你不能只孤立地看一件事，就以为自己了解了全貌。

在这方面我最喜欢的例子之一就是运动内衣（sports bra）。当女性穿上运动内衣时，她经历的第一件事就是承受更大的热负荷。她穿了更多层，汗水更难蒸发，而且她比男性同行保留更多的热量。因此，每位女性在起跑线上就处于劣势。因为穿着内衣，我们称之为“内衣税”。

与此同时，我们知道如果改变女性的支撑，她在意识上或潜意识里的运动方式都会发生改变。女性往往会绷紧身体，她们可能会含胸驼背。这不仅让动作效率降低，还可能让你面临更大的受伤风险。

因此，我们一直在关注通过这些不同的干预手段、不同的产品和服务所产生的急性变化是什么；但同时也关注那些长期影响是什么，从而让你在明天、后天以及未来的每一年都能成为最佳版本的自己。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
One of the things I'm really
obsessed with right now is injuries,
and particularly in female athletes.
Women are at a higher risk
of ACL injuries than men.
They're three to five times
more likely to have an injury.
ACL injuries are multifactorial.
Particularly in female athletes,
people have looked at the bone
structure around the knee.
They've looked at how changes in
a woman's hormonal fluctuations
might change the laxity of
the ligaments in the knee,
all the way down to sort of just
motor patterns and motor development.
We have historically treated young
boys and young girls differently,
and how we let them move as infants
can have an impact on how they move
and develop as they get older.
And so solving those big challenges,
if you solve for her,
you'll solve for everybody.
If we think about how we
look at science at Nike
through a biomechanics lens,
which is studying the movement
and the loads on the body,
we look at it through a physiology lens,
sort of your body's internal
regulatory mechanisms
and how do you respond
to different stimuli.
We look at it through perception
and neuroscience lens.
You can't just look at
one thing in isolation
and assume you understand
the full picture.
One of my favorite examples
of this one is a sports bra.
When a woman puts on a sports bra,
the first thing that she experiences
is she has a greater thermal load.
She has more layers on,
sweat is less likely to evaporate,
and she retains heat more
than her male counterparts.
And so every woman is at a
disadvantage on the starting line.
We call it the bra tax, for wearing a bra.
At the same time, we know if
we change a woman's support,
she will move either consciously
or subconsciously differently.
Women tend to brace.
They might hunch over.
Not only does that make the
movement less efficient,
it might expose you to
greater injury risks.
And so we're constantly looking
at what are the acute changes
that happen with these
different interventions,
different products and services,
but also what are those long-term impacts
so that you can be the
best version tomorrow
and the day after and the
year after going forward.
</details>

### “破二”项目与非线性的系统突破

作为一名优秀的科学家，一部分特质还在于富有极大的创造力。一个科学团队或耐克运动研究实验室所能产生的最持久影响，就是去构想一个尚未存在的不同未来的能力、容量和创造力。

马拉松跑进两小时的传说已经流传了多年，并且在很大程度上被视为不可能完成的任务。当我们在为“破二”（Breaking2）做筹备工作时，我们并没有一开始就说：我们来跑一个两小时马拉松吧。

我们实际上是从疲劳入手的。地球上的每个人都会感到疲劳。有的人是在进行两小时马拉松时产生疲劳，有的人只是在城市社区的街道上穿行时感到疲劳。因此，这让我们思考的是：你如何定义疲劳？它是肌肉层面的吗？它是神经运动层面的吗？它是生理层面的吗？然后你从那里开始构建知识体系，基本上把各项要素摆到了桌面上。

我们知道，如果在鞋子里改变大约100克的重量，你就会开始将跑步经济性改变大约1%。我们还知道，如果改变缓震性能，你也可以将跑步经济性影响大约1%。我们还知道，如果改变碳板硬度，你可以将跑步经济性改变1%。

当时，我们试图探究如何将缓震、碳板硬度和重量结合起来以帮助减轻疲劳。很多时候在科学界，我们发现当你试图将所有这三种效应结合起来时，1加1加1很少等于3，它大概率等于2。

而我们近乎意外地发现的一件事是：它达到了4%。仅仅通过穿上一双鞋，你的跑步效率就提高了4%。当我第一次看到这些结果时，我告诉我的团队他们做错了，他们需要回去重新再试一次，因为事情几乎从来不会以这种方式呈现。

因此，有时你会迎来这些不可思议的时刻：当你开始着眼于系统，开始将全身视为一个整体而不是单个杠杆时，你会获得这些复合效益和/或意料之外的成果。

如果你看看当时马拉松的成绩记录，再看看我们从训练设想中获得的益处、对运动员表现建模的分析，再加上我们证明能够带来4%效益的产品，刹那间，人们觉得两小时以内的马拉松触手可及了；从那以后，我想说剩下的就成为历史了。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
Part of being a great scientist
is also being really creative.
The most enduring impact
that a science team
or the Nike Sport Research Lab can
have is the ability, the capacity,
the creativity to imagine a different
future that doesn't yet exist.
The folklore of a two-hour
marathon had been around for years
and was largely seen as impossible.
When we did the work
leading up to Breaking2,
we didn't start and say,
let's run a two-hour marathon.
We actually started with fatigue.
Every single person on
the planet gets fatigued.
Some do it while they're
doing a two-hour marathon,
some just navigating the streets
of their urban community.
And so what that made us think about was,
how do you define fatigue?
Is it muscular?
Is it neuromotor?
Is it physiological?
And then you start from
there building the knowledge
and basically putting the
ingredients on the table.
We knew that if you change mass
by roughly 100 grams in a shoe,
you start to change running
economy by about 1%.
We also knew if you change cushioning,
you can also affect running
economy by about 1%.
And we knew if you change plate stiffness,
you can change run economy by 1%.
Now, we were trying to see
how do we combine cushioning,
plate stiffness, and weight
to help reduce fatigue.
A lot of times in science,
what we have found is when you try and
combine all three of those effects,
the 1 plus 1 plus 1 rarely equals 3.
It probably equals 2.
And one of the things we found
almost unexpectedly was it was 4%.
Just by putting on a shoe,
you were 4% more efficient at running.
When I first saw those results,
I told my team they had done it
wrong and they needed to go back
and try again because it almost
never works out that way.
And so sometimes you get
these magical moments
where when you start to look at systems
and you start to look at the whole
body as opposed to individual levers,
you get these compounding benefits
and/or unanticipated outcomes.
If you look at what the
marathon time of the day was,
and we look at the benefit
we were both getting
from what we thought
we could do in training
and modeling athlete performance,
along with the products
that we were showing
would give you a 4% benefit,
all of a sudden it felt that the
two-hour marathon was within grasp,
and from there I'd say
the rest is history.
</details>

### 拓展潜能与科学分享的价值

作为一个，也许作为一个实用主义者和科学家，有时我认为我们正在接近渐近线。然后，神奇的事情发生了：出现了一项改变运动表现的突破。这些技术突破改变了我们的认知、改变了我们的现实。

人类非常独特且令人赞叹的能力之一，就是我们通过创新、技术和科学来拓展潜能的能力。如果你想想书写如何改变了我们保存记忆的方式；如果你想想印刷机如何改变了我们传播知识的方式；你再想想GPS以及它如何改变了我们在世界上导航的方式——它延展了我们的现实。

因此，当我们为你穿戴上不同的装备，我们改变了你移动的方式，我们改变了你体验世界的方式，我们改变了你训练、适应和反应的方式。你看，这就是人体系统的奇妙之处。当我们研究这些人时，每个人身上都有某种深深令人惊叹的特质。我们仍然拥有如此多的机遇和如此巨大的成长空间。

科学永无止境，它并非完美无缺，它是我们今天所掌握的最佳真理。但科学的标志之一还在于分享你的发现。这就是我们的看法，这就是我们所制造的东西，这就是我们认为它能发挥的作用。我欢迎反馈。请告诉我我做错了。让我们在此类知识的基础上更进一步，一起去解决这些问题。

因此，只要坚守良好科学的准则、开展辩论并进行分享，我认为这就是我们推动世界前进的方式。

<details>
<summary>Original English</summary>
As a,
maybe as a pragmatist and a scientist,
sometimes I think we're
reaching an asymptote.
And then something magical happens.
There's a breakthrough
that changes performance.
These technological breakthroughs
change our perception, our reality.
One of the amazing things and very
unique to humans is our ability
to expand our potential through
innovation and technology and science.
If you think about how writing
changed how we preserve memories,
if you think about how the printing press
changed how we disseminate knowledge,
you think about GPS and how it
changed how we navigate the world,
it's extended our reality.
And so as we put different things on you,
we change the way you move,
we change the way you
experience the world,
we change the way you're able
to train and adapt and respond.
And, you know, that's the
beauty of the human system.
When we study these people,
every single person has something deeply,
deeply amazing about them.
And we have so much opportunity
still and so much room to grow.
Science is never done.
It's not infallible.
It's the best truth that we have today.
But one of the hallmarks of science,
too, is you share your findings.
This is what we think.
This is what we built.
This is what we think it does.
I welcome the feedback.
Please tell me I'm wrong.
And let's build on that knowledge and go
out and solve these problems together.
And so just living to the virtues of
good science and debate and sharing,
and I think that's how we
move the world forward.
</details>