--- author: New York Times Podcasts date: '2026-10-14' guest: '' layout: post.njk source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRnubSoOc44 speaker: New York Times Podcasts tags: - co-parenting - divorce-recovery - blended-family - emotional-healing - childhood-trauma title: 给前夫的新妻子送一杯香草拿铁：一位母亲关于离婚与重构家庭的救赎之路 summary: 作家丹妮丝·莱恩做客《现代爱情》播客，讲述自己如何在父母惨烈离婚的童年阴影与自身婚姻破裂后，为了儿子亚历山大免受撕裂之苦，努力寻找体面共同抚育之路。从一盒印着全家模样的姜饼人，到重症监护室里送给前夫新妻子的一杯香草拿铁，她重新定义了爱、包容与超越白色栅栏幻想的现代家庭。 insight: '' draft: true series: '' category: family-relations area: life-family project: [] people: - Denise Ryan - Anna Martin companies_orgs: - The New York Times products_models: [] media_books: - Modern Love status: evergreen --- ### 序幕：给前夫新妻子的香草拿铁 **安娜·马丁**: 大家好，我是**安娜·马丁**（Anna Martin）。在进入今天的对话之前，我想先对正在收听节目的**《纽约时报》**（The New York Times）订阅读者们说一声谢谢。你们的支持推动了本节目的制作，也支持着《时报》产出的所有故事和新闻报道。现在，我想对那些还不是订阅者的听众说几句，我有一个令人兴奋的消息要告诉大家：现在，当你首次下载《纽约时报》应用程序时，你在应用内的第一个月是完全免费的。那是整整 30 天免费畅读我们新闻报道的权限，其中包括《现代爱情》（Modern Love）开播以来的每一期节目，完全免费，无需信用卡。现在就下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始收听吧。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Hey everyone, it's Anna. Okay, before we get into today's conversation, I want to talk to the New York Times subscribers who are listening right now, and I want to say thank you. Your support powers the show and powers all the other storytelling and journalism coming out of the times. Now I want to talk to the people who are not subscribers yet. I have something exciting for you. Now, when you download the New York Times app for the first time, your first month in the app is free. That's 30 days of access to our journalism, which includes every Modern Love episode ever made, totally free, no credit card required. Download the New York Times app now to get started.
**配音集锦**: “爱，从现在到永远。” “昨晚坠入爱河了吗？” “爱比一切都更强大。” “看在爱的份上……” “我爱你胜过世间万物。” “唯有爱。”
Original English **Audio Montage**: >> Love now and forever. >> in love last night? >> Love is stronger than anything. >> For the love of >> And I love you more than anything. >> Just love.
**安娜·马丁**: 这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这里是**《现代爱情》**（Modern Love）。不久前，**丹妮丝·莱恩**（Denise Ryan）发现自己正拿着一杯香草拿铁，送给一个她此前从未想过会为其买咖啡的人——她前夫的新妻子。在这之前，丹妮丝其实并没有和她相处过太长时间。她对他们之间的关系怀有复杂微妙的心情，但那个女人当时需要她，也需要一杯香草拿铁，于是丹妮丝毫不犹豫地赶去了。今天，我与丹妮丝聊了聊她为什么要那么做。因为那其实根本不只是一杯饮品的事，而是关于丹妮丝如何摸索着去拥有一场“体面的离婚”，而不是像她父母当年那样经历一场混乱、愤怒且充满痛苦的决裂，更是关于如何不让一段婚姻的终结……演变成一个家庭的毁灭。
Original English **Anna Martin**: From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. A while ago, Denise Ryan found herself bringing a vanilla latte to someone she never thought she'd bring a vanilla latte to. Her ex-husband's new wife. Denise really hadn't spent much time with her before this point. She had complicated feelings about their relationship, but this woman needed her and needed a vanilla latte, and Denise showed up. Today I talked to Denise about why she did that. Because it wasn't about the drink really, it was about Denise figuring out how to have a good divorce instead of having a messy, angry, painful one like her parents had. And how to keep the end of a marriage from being the end of a family.
--- ### 童年阴影：芝士蛋糕工坊的决裂 **安娜·马丁**: 丹妮丝·莱恩，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Denise Ryan, welcome to Modern Love.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 很高兴认识你。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Nice to meet you.
**安娜·马丁**: 丹妮丝，你为《现代爱情》专栏写了一篇名为《请像我一样爱我的儿子》（Please Love My Son as I do）的文章。那是关于你的离婚以及离婚后的共同抚育经历，尤其是关于你前夫再婚后的故事。但是，我想先从你在亲自经历离婚之前是如何看待离婚这件事聊起。能否告诉我，在你成长的过程中，你所看到的离婚是什么样子的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Denise, you wrote a Modern Love essay called Please Love My Son as I do. It's about your divorce and co-parenting after it, especially after your ex-husband marries again. But, I want to start by asking about how you thought about divorce even before you actually went through it yourself. So, tell me, growing up, what was the version of divorce that you saw?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 你知道，我成长在一个非常美好的家庭里。那是一个大家庭，热闹非凡、充满温暖，屋子里到处是书籍和音乐。我觉得我们的家庭曾经是那么完美。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: You know, I grew up in a wonderful family. It was big, it was boisterous, it was warm, it was a house full of books and music, and it was so ideal, I felt our family was.
**安娜·马丁**: 嗯。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Huh.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 然后有一天，我母亲突然轻描淡写地说：“我和你父亲要分开了。我们要离婚了。”在那个年代，我们周围根本不认识任何离过婚的人。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: And then one day my mom just said, "Your dad and I are splitting up. And we're going to be getting a divorce." We didn't know anybody else who was divorced at the time.
**安娜·马丁**: 她告诉你这件事的时候你多大？
Original English **Anna Martin**: And how old were you when she told you that?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 大概 11 岁。而且局势急转直下，很快就从最初口口声声说的“这对我和你父亲来说是最好的选择，因为对我们最好，所以对所有人、对整个家庭也都会是最好的”，彻底沦落到了父母之间连话都没法心平气和说的境地，彼此嘴里吐不出任何一句好话。他们逼着我们选到底想跟谁住，并把这种残酷的抉择摆在我们面前。我母亲明确提出，我们要么选跟我父亲住，要么选跟我母亲住；如果我们做不出决定，那就只能让法官在法庭上替我们做决定。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: About 11. And it quite quickly went from "This is the best thing for me and for your father, and because it's the best for us, it's going to be the best for all of us, for the whole family." To a situation where my parents couldn't even speak to each other, and they had nothing good to say to each other. And um they made us choose who we wanted to live with, and presented this to us. My mother presented it um that uh we had to choose to live with my dad, or we had to choose to live with my mom. And if we couldn't make that choice, then a judge would make it for us in court.
**安娜·马丁**: 哇。请允许我插一句，因为这种转变实在太剧烈了。当时那到底是一种怎样的景象？那种剧变给你们的感觉是怎样的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Wow. Let me just ask you really quickly, because that is such a such a change. Tell me about what that looked like. What did that change feel like?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我们当时彻底困惑了，完全不知道到底发生了什么，很多内情都是我很久之后才逐渐了解的。但对我母亲来说，那是一场全面的重塑。突然之间，她连内衣都不穿了，打扮得像个嬉皮士，牛仔裤上满是破洞……
Original English **Denise Ryan**: We were baffled. We didn't know what was going on, and there was a lot that I learned later. But for my mom, it was this full reinvention. Suddenly, she wasn't wearing a bra. She was dressing like a hippie. There were holes in her jeans...
**安娜·马丁**: [笑] 真是巨大的转变。
Original English **Anna Martin**: [laughter] Big changes.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是啊，她开始自己卷香烟抽，变成了一个烟不离手的艺术妈妈。而我们的父亲则留在了那个曾经幸福温暖的大房子里，独自一人。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah, she was rolling her own cigarettes. She became the chain-smoking art mom. And uh our dad was left in that big house that had been so happy, alone.
**安娜·马丁**: 对一个 11 岁的孩子说出“在我跟你父亲之间选一个”这样的话，那种负担简直沉重得令人难以置信。
Original English **Anna Martin**: It feels like a unbelievably heavy burden to tell an 11-year-old, "Choose between me or your dad."
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我觉得也就是从那一刻起，情绪彻底吞没了我，我记得自己当时一直在哭泣。我的弟弟甚至在法庭上尿了裤子。正因为父母之间已经完全无法进行任何有礼貌的交谈，他们便把我们当成了传话的传声筒。他们会当着我们的面恶毒地攻击对方，并指望我们把这些话转达给另一方。 我记忆中父母最后一次同处一室的情景，是在一家**芝士蛋糕工坊**（The Cheesecake Factory）。事情糟糕到了何种地步呢？当时我母亲需要找我父亲多要一点与上学相关的费用。我们大家坐下来，点好了芝士蛋糕，但几乎立刻他们就吵了起来。我父亲冲着我说：“去问你妈，我明明给了她抚养费，她全花在她那些抽大麻的边缘艺术家狐朋狗友身上了！”听到这话，我母亲当场跳了起来，尖叫着冲他吼道：“要是当年没有我，你早就死在越南战场上了！” 整个餐馆里的所有人都在盯着我们看。我放声大哭，服务员端着两块芝士蛋糕僵硬地站在一旁。那就是最后一次了，那是他们这辈子最后一次同对方说话。而我就被死死地夹在他们中间。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I I think that's when emotions really took over, and I remember just crying a lot. And my little brother peed his pants in court. And because my parents couldn't talk to each other in any way that was civil, they spoke to each other through us. And they said bad things about each other to us that I think we were expected to relay to the other parent. The last time my parents were together that I remember was at and this is how bad it was was we were out at kind of a Cheesecake Factory, I think, because my mom had to get a little bit more money from my dad for something related to schooling. We all sat down, we ordered our cheesecake, but right away they started fighting, you know, my dad said, "Ask your mother, I'm giving her child support. She's spending it on her marginal pot-smoking art friends." And you know, then my mom jumped up and screamed at him, "Well, if it weren't for me, you'd be dead in Vietnam." Everybody in the restaurant was looking at us. I was crying, the waitress was standing there with the two cheesecakes in her hand. And that was it. That was the last time they ever spoke to each other. And I was in the middle of that.
**安娜·马丁**: 哇，真的是字面意义上、物理空间上被夹在中间吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Wow. Like literally physically in the middle?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我当时就坐在餐桌正中央，止不住地抽泣，完全无法理解到底出了什么错。我记得我哭着对母亲说：“可是我们呢？我们是你的一部分，也是爸爸的一部分啊，你们怎么能这样对我们？”而我至今都清晰记得母亲的回答，她说：“你要知道，在你出生之前，我和你父亲就有属于我们自己的生活，那是不包括你们的生活。”仿佛我们在家庭破碎中所承受的一切痛苦都是无足轻重的，仿佛这纯粹只是他们两个人的事。然而，这成了我终生背负的一道深深的创伤。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I was physically in the middle at the table and I was just sobbing and I just had no understanding of what had gone wrong and and I remember saying to my mom, "But what about us? You know, we're we're part of you, we're also part of dad. How can you do this to us?" And I remember her saying, "Well, you know, your father and I had a life that didn't include you before you were born." As if our part in in the breakup of the family was somehow meaningless, that it was only about them. But it became a wound that I carried for the rest of my life.
--- ### “只要开始谈论问题，感情就已经结束了” **安娜·马丁**: 我听过不少父母离异的人说，亲眼目睹父母决裂让他们对婚姻或亲密关系的长久性产生了极大的怀疑。你当时也是这种心态吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: You know, I've heard people whose parents got divorced say that watching their parents got divorced made them very skeptical of marriage or of relationships lasting. Did you feel that way?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 噢，绝对是这样。当时对我来说最大的挣扎之一，就是努力不让自己对人际关系和爱情变得彻底玩世不恭。我变成了一个永远先抽身离开的人（the leaver）——在别人抛弃我之前，我一定会先离开对方。我不懂得如何在一段关系中坚守，更不知道该如何去共同化解矛盾。我甚至记得我母亲常挂在嘴边的一句话：**“一旦你们不得不开始坐下来谈论问题，这段感情就已经玩完了。”**
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, absolutely. And one of the primary struggles was not to become jaded about relationships and about love and I I became someone who was always the leaver. I would leave a relationship before somebody could leave me. If and I didn't know how to stay in a relationship. I didn't know how to work things through. I remember one of the things my mom always used to say was once you have to start talking about it, it's over.
**安娜·马丁**: 哇，这可真是一条耐人寻味的建议啊。[笑] 好的，那请具体聊聊，这种信念在你后来的生活中是如何体现出来的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Wow, that is interesting advice. [laughter] Huh. Okay. Yes, get into it. Tell me how that played out for you.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 这个观点在餐桌上或许可以当作一句俏皮的妙语，但如果你真的想维系一段亲密关系，这种想法是极其病态且不健康的。我母亲当年其实被那场离异彻底击垮了，我父亲也同样痛苦万分。目睹了这一切后，我曾觉得让自己变得刀枪不入、绝不轻易表露脆弱、绝不向任何可能深深伤害我的事情敞开心扉，是一种强大的自我保护。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Well, I mean it's a great quip at a dinner table, but really it's not really healthy if you want to have a relationship and you know my mom was also devastated by the split, by the divorce. As so was my dad. So seeing that I I felt it was it was empowering to to to not be susceptible, to not be vulnerable, to not be open to something that could hurt me so much.
**安娜·马丁**: 啊，就像在心底对自己发誓：“我绝不会让这种事发生在我身上，发生在他们身上的悲剧绝不会重演。”
Original English **Anna Martin**: Ah. I will never let this happen to me. What happened to them will never happen to me.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，没错。我年轻时身边甚至没有任何结了婚的朋友。我想等到我和**克里斯**（Chris）结婚时，我们都已经三十多岁了，而在此之前我一生中仅仅参加过一次婚礼。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even know anyone who got married. I think by the time Chris and I got married and we were in our 30s, I had only been to one wedding.
**安娜·马丁**: 哇，那你真幸运。[笑] 我现在正深陷身边的单身派对季，如果我的朋友们在听这期播客，请记住我深爱你们每一个人！不过言归正传，你刚才轻描淡写地带过了这一点，但其实非常关键：你习惯用“一旦发生冲突就立刻离开”来防御自己，可你却遇到了这个名叫克里斯的男人，你坠入爱河，并且最终决定步入婚姻。为什么？这听起来恰恰违背了你曾向自己许下的誓言。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Wow. Lucky. [laughter] I'm in the throes of of bachelorette season and of my friends are listening. I love each and every one of you, but tell me, I mean you slipped that in there, but it's notable because we're talking about, you know, how you would protect yourself by leaving. You know, at the first instance of conflict. And yet you meet this man, his name is Chris, you fall in love and you decide to get married. Why? This feels like a thing you promised yourself you would not do.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 噢，我们深入讨论过这个问题，因为我们有着共同的童年创伤——他的父母也离异了。我们都曾极其困惑：两个原本如此出色、富有创造力、聪明且充满爱意的人，怎么会在离婚之后老死不相往来，余生再也不跟对方说一句话？
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, we talked about it because we shared that experience of having divorced parents and we shared that sense of being baffled by how two people who I mean his parents are wonderful uh who were wonderful, creative, intelligent, loving people would never speak to each other again.
**安娜·马丁**: 听起来他的父母当年也经历了一场极其恶劣的离婚。
Original English **Anna Martin**: parents also had a acrimonious divorce, it sounds like.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，确实如此。所以我们作为伴侣，内心也曾不断苦苦挣扎：我们在一起到底能走多远？我们真的能迈出婚姻这一步吗？但是当我们最终决定结婚的那一刻，那真的是一次无比喜悦的突破，甚至可以说是一种狂喜。因为我内心深处其实一直渴望结婚，我太渴望那座象征幸福生活的**“白色栅栏”**（white picket fence）了。在我父母离婚之前，我曾拥有过那座白色栅栏，我做梦都想把它找回来。这就是我在与他的那些交谈中挖掘出来的真实渴望。因为克里斯过去常常会问：“既然我们明知道最终都可能会分开，那为什么还要结婚呢？”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yes. Yes. And so we as a couple struggled with what we could be together, and could we take all of those steps, but when we finally decided that we were going to get married, it was such a joyful breakthrough, you know, it was euphoric even. And I did want to get married. I really I wanted the white picket fence. I had had the white picket fence until my parents split up, and I wanted it again. That was the dream. That's what I uncovered in these conversations, because he would say, "Well, you know, why do you want to get married? Why should we get married when we know we're just going to split up, you know?"
**安娜·马丁**: 那你当时是怎么回答他的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: And what would you say back?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我会对他说：“我觉得我们可以走出一条不一样的路。”在我们彼此深沉的爱意和紧密的联结中，我开始感受到了巨大的希望。当心防的堤坝被冲垮后，我们便义无反顾地投入了婚姻之中。我们任由自己沉浸在那场美妙的梦境里。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I'd say, "I think I think we can do it differently. I I started to feel in the love that we had for each other, the deep connection that we had with each other, that that there was a lot of hope. And when we the dam burst and we we went for it. You know, we allowed ourselves to be swept away in the dream.
--- ### 重蹈覆辙：婚姻破裂与“带走箱子的人” **安娜·马丁**: 我很好奇，在结婚前或结婚后，你和克里斯有没有开诚布公地讨论过万一以后离婚该怎么办？
Original English **Anna Martin**: I wonder either prior to getting married or after, did you and Chris did you talk about divorce?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [嗤笑] 完全没有，我们根本避而不谈。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: [snorts] No, we didn't talk about it.
**安娜·马丁**: 你们完全没谈过，这很有意思。能告诉我为什么吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: You didn't talk about it. Interesting. Tell me why.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我想是因为我们坚信自己会是个例外。我们自负地相信我们能战胜一切，甚至无法想象在这个世界上，我们的婚姻竟然也会有无法维系的一天。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I think we believed that we would be different. We believed that we would be different.
**安娜·马丁**: 也就是说，你们当时压根无法想象这段婚姻会破裂的可能。
Original English **Anna Martin**: So, you couldn't even imagine a world in which this marriage did not last.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，绝对无法想象。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: No. No.
**安娜·马丁**: 那能否告诉我，你最早是从什么时候开始隐约感觉到事情有些不对劲了？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Tell me about then maybe when you first started to sense that something wasn't working.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [叹气] 大概是在结婚四五年后吧。我们开始频繁地争吵。我现在回过头来看，虽然我们内心极度渴望拥有美满的婚姻，但我们可能根本不具备维持一段健康婚姻所需的心智工具和技能。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: [sighs] Um It was 4 or 5 years into the marriage. Uh we were fighting a lot. And my perspective on that now is that even though we wanted something, we may not have had the tools for it.
**安娜·马丁**: 你能具体解释一下是什么意思吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Tell me what you mean by that.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我的意思是，作为一个从小习惯了当“离开者”、一遇到矛盾就拔腿就跑的人，我根本不知道在争吵发生之后该如何修复关系。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I mean that as someone who had always been the leaver, the it, I'm out person, I didn't know how to repair things.
**安娜·马丁**: 就像你母亲当年的灌输的那句忠告——“一旦得坐下来谈，一切就完了”。你能回忆起一场令你印象尤为深刻的争吵吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: I mean, your mom's advice, your mom's advice about, you know, when you have to talk about it, that makes sense to me. But can you bring me is there a specific fight you remember?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 天哪，实在太多了。我记得有一回，当时我已经怀胎八个半月了。好像是大年三十除夕夜，我打发他去超市买东西，结果他买回来的肉部位完全不对，奶酪品种也买错了，没法做我想做的那道菜。现在回头看，为这种鸡毛蒜皮的小事大发雷霆显得荒唐可笑，但在当时，仅仅因为买的是西冷牛排而不是菲力牛排，事态就能在极短时间内迅速恶化成彼此的深深伤害。 我记得我们爆发了一场可怕的大吵，我二话不说抓起手提箱就打包行李冲出了家门，径直跑去了朋友家，哭喊着说：“彻底结束了！全完了！”你看，我总是下意识地滑向那种极端的深渊——对于正常的夫妻来说，那不过是一次寻常的拌嘴，但在我眼里，它总是被无限放大成致命的危机，仿佛整段感情都在坠入悬崖。最后，由于怀着八个半月的身孕，在朋友给我吃了几块巧克力并开车送我回家后，我又回去了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: God, there were so many. Uh I remember being I was actually you know, 8 and 1/2 months pregnant. And I think it was New New Eve. And you know, I had dispatched him to the store and he had come back with the wrong cut of meat and the wrong kind of cheese, etc., to make this recipe that I wanted to make, and now it seems so silly that I would make a fuss about something like that, but the things could devolve really quickly into hurt feelings over something as simple as it's a sirloin, not a filet. And I remember we just had this huge fight, and I went and I grabbed my suitcase and packed it and stormed out, and I went to my friend's house, and I said, "That's it. It's over." You know, I was still automatically kind of going to that place where I think a a normal couple might see something as just a spat, to me it was always something much worse. I was would see the whole relationship going off the cliff. And so, I was 8 and 1/2 months pregnant, you know, I went back.
**安娜·马丁**: 哎，丹妮丝，真的是太不容易了。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Come on, Denise. Yeah.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 那时从我的角度看，我情绪极度敏感脆弱，而他则变得愈发疏离和冷酷。这就是我们相处模式中的致命死结。当只有我们两个人时，这种动态或许还能勉强维持，但一旦我们有了孩子，让他夹在父母这样的紧张关系之间，我立刻清醒地意识到这对他而言是极其有害的。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: But that was from you know, my perspective, I was very emotional, and he would grow very distant and cold, and that was kind of our that was kind of our dynamic, and I think that was okay when it was just the two of us, but once we had a child, to have him in the middle of that, I could see that it wasn't healthy for him.
**安娜·马丁**: 你们的儿子名叫**亚历山大**（Alexander）。你说到不想让儿子夹在中间，这让我立刻联想到了当年坐在芝士蛋糕工坊餐桌中间痛苦抽泣的小丹妮丝。你能谈谈亚历山大出生之后，你的心态发生了怎样的改变吗？当意识到他也可能成为你们紧张关系的见证者或受害者时，你是怎么想的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: You have your son, his name is Alexander. Um you know, you're talking about your son being in the middle, and I recall you at the Cheesecake Factory in between your parents. Can you tell me what was it like once Alexander was born, and how you were thinking about things differently, that he was witness or in the middle of of your relationship.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我想，当时我心里萌生了一个念头：为了孩子的健康成长，也许我们分开生活反而更好。因为作为成年人，我们尚且能够承受彼此伤害并从中恢复，但我不知道年幼的他是否能在情感上承受这种摧残。我绝不希望他身上留下和我当年一模一样的伤痕。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Well, I I guess I thought maybe we would be better off apart for our child's sake because we could endure hurting each other and recover from it, but I didn't know that he could survive that emotionally. I didn't want him to have the same wounds that I did.
**安娜·马丁**: 这必定对你造成了巨大的内心震动。我非常希望你能带我回顾一下，你是如何逐步认清这一现实的？当时内心感受如何？以及你和克里斯又是如何开始探讨分开这件事的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Oh. That must have really rocked you. And and I would love if you could sort of talk me through how you began to realize that and what it felt like and also conversations with Chris that you began to have about this potential split.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，我们争吵得越来越频繁，每次发生分歧后需要更长的时间才能平复。一部分原因在于我对“白色栅栏”执念般的追求——我当年固执地坚持买下一套我们实际上根本负担不起的大房子，导致家庭背负了沉重的经济压力。但我们之间从来都不是因为爱得不够。我们依然深爱着彼此，依然是非常非常亲密的朋友。也正因如此，我们更不想在无休止的争吵中把这份深厚的友谊彻底消磨殆尽。 但我至今仍感到有些自责，因为“离开”成了我习惯性的逃生通道——那是我唯一学会的解决方式：只要痛苦，就立刻抽身。你知道，一个人做了选择，但你永远无法预见未来。当你亲手拆散一段婚姻时，你很快就会明白一个真理：你不过是用一种麻烦，换取了另一种全新的麻烦而已。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Mhm. Yeah, I think we were we were fighting a lot and it took more time to recover from those differences that we were having and part of that came from my pursuit of the white picket fence. I mean, I insisted that we buy a house that we couldn't really afford. We were under financial pressure. And um it was never a matter of not enough love. We loved each other and we were very very very close friends. And I think we didn't want to lose that either in the conflicts that we were having. And I I still feel somewhat badly about this because that was my way out. what I had learned. Just leave. You know, you make the choice, but you never really know. One thing you learn quite quickly when you split up a marriage is that you trade one set of problems for another.
--- ### 一颗一颗牙齿的共同抚育：绝不撕裂孩子的爱 **安娜·马丁**: 节目马上回来。
Original English **Anna Martin**: We'll be right back.
**安娜·马丁**: 当时你和克里斯是怎么向幼小的亚历山大解释分居这件事的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: How were you talking to Alexander, you and Chris, about the split?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我记得当时我只是温柔地对他说：“妈妈和爸爸以后要住在不同的房子里了，这对你来说其实是一件好事哦，因为以后你就有两个温馨的家可以去了。”他当时表面上顺从地接受了，但我能看出他的内心充满了困惑与不安。 我永远忘不了他掉第一颗乳牙时的情景。那颗牙是在我身边掉落的。对一个小男孩来说，那是一个无比重大的成长时刻。第二天他父亲过来看他，我们一起把掉落的牙齿展示给克里斯看。那一瞬间，我清楚地看到了克里斯眼中的复杂神情：既有身为父亲由衷的骄傲与祝贺，又有那一闪而过的落寞与感伤——他为自己错过了儿子人生第一颗掉牙的重要瞬间而难过。 而我当时对亚历山大的情绪感知极度敏感，我分明看到亚历山大也察觉到了父亲的失落，并因此感到难过。所以我立刻安抚亚历山大：“别担心，宝贝，你的下一颗牙齿一定会留给你爸爸的。”在那之后，当他的第二颗牙齿开始松动时，我们都格外小心翼翼，不敢摇得太厉害，只轻轻地晃动，精准地掐算着时间，好让这颗牙恰巧在他去父亲家度过的那几天里掉落。 那一刻我心里猛地一震，暗自想道：“难道他的未来就要这样度过吗？我们要像分拆一颗颗牙齿一样，把他的人生割裂开来吗？”这会给孩子幼小的心灵留下怎样的伤疤？也就是从那时起我下定决心：就算我和克里斯分开了，我们也必须全力以赴维系好这个家，找到一种将伤害降到最低的相处之道。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I think I just said, you know, "Mommy and Daddy are going to be living in a different house, and that's going to be good for you, cuz you're going to have two places to go, and he was kind of going along with it, but I could see that he was a little bit troubled by it. You know, uh I'll never forget that he lost his first tooth with me. And that's a big moment, and I know when his dad came over the next day and we presented it to him that he had lost his first tooth, I could see Chris the mix of his pride congratulating Alexander. "Wow, you know, your first tooth." And and a and a flicker of sadness that he had missed that, and I was so sensitive to Alexander's emotions, I could see Alexander feel badly for his dad, that his dad had not been able to be there for his first tooth. And so I had to promise Alexander "Don't worry, your next tooth will be for your dad." And then, we were very careful with that next tooth not to wiggle it too much, but to wiggle it just enough so that we could time it for one of his days with his dad. And I remember thinking, "Is this how it's going to be for him? We're going to split his life tooth by tooth?" And what kind of wound would that leave? And I think that's when I started thinking, "Okay, Chris and I are splitting up, but how can we keep our family together in some way that causes the least amount of pain for all of us?"
**安娜·马丁**: 在这一切发生的过程中，你和克里斯之间的日常沟通是怎样的状态？
Original English **Anna Martin**: And what was communication like between you and Chris as all of this was happening?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我们依然像从前生活在一起时那样，每天通好几次电话。我们保持着密集的联络，聊天的内容和以前夫妻俩聊的毫无二致：互相分享孩子每天做了什么趣事，孩子在他爸爸家时，克里斯也会详尽地告诉我一切。那些每天通两三次的日常电话，成了我们生活中极其核心的支柱。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Well, we were calling each other multiple times a day, just like we had when we were together. We were in constant contact to talk about the same sort of things that we used to talk about when we were together. So that I could share with him what our child was doing, and when he was at his dad's house, his dad could share that with me. And the calls became so important, this these daily calls, sometimes two or three times a day.
**安娜·马丁**: 哇，对于分开的夫妻来说，这种联系频率相当高了。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Oh, that's a lot. That's a lot.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是很多，确实非常多。但那绝非出于我想与克里斯复合，或者克里斯想回到我身边。而是为了让我们能像从前一样，毫无保留地共同见证孩子成长中的每一个珍贵瞬间。世上除了父母，再也不会有任何人能像你们一样深爱自己的骨肉，或为孩子的一举一动而深深着迷。因此，我们可以在电话里畅聊所有的点滴细节：那些逗我们发笑的童言稚语，那些让我们抓狂的难题，以及我们各自是如何应对的。 有意思的是，我以前从未意识到这一点，直到现在回顾才恍然大悟：在某种意义上，亚历山大成了我和克里斯之间未曾磨灭的爱意与关怀的唯一载体。这种共同倾注的爱，反过来成了抚平我们婚姻终结之痛的疗愈香膏。正是通过谈论孩子，我们依然能够在彼此面前做最真实的自己，而无需背负婚姻失败带来的沉重包袱。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: It's a lot. It's a lot. And it wasn't about me wanting to be back with Chris, or Chris wanting to be back with me. It was about us sharing as fully as we had when we were together those moments in our child's life. And nobody is ever going to love your child or be as entranced by your child as you are as parents. And so, we could share all of those moments, the things that had made us laugh, the things that had made us so how we had managed it. And it also became it's interesting. I had never thought of this before, but just In a way, Alexander became the vector of the love and the care that Chris and I had for each other. And in a way that became a sort of a balm for the loss of the marriage that we had had. And that was our child. And through talking about that we could be ourselves with each other without the burden of the marriage.
--- ### “边缘人”的落寞：前夫再婚与年轻新妻子 **安娜·马丁**: 据我所知，在你们一次寻常的日常通话中，你得知克里斯开启了一段全新的恋情，而且两人发展得相当认真。你能讲讲你初次得知这个消息的那通电话吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Mhm. I know that during one of your regular phone calls with Chris, you learn that he's in a new relationship and that it's getting serious. Can you tell me about that call where you first found that out?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我对那通电话记忆犹新，因为那天的气氛和平时明显不太一样。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I remember that call so well because it was a little bit different.
**安娜·马丁**: 怎么个不一样法？
Original English **Anna Martin**: How?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 你了解一个人的时候，他是瞒不过你的。他的语调微微压低了。我心里一动：“怎么了？出什么事了？”原来他正在和一位新对象约会。他有些难为情地承认，对方比他年轻 19 岁，而且这段关系可能非常认真。他对我说：“我们现在进展得很慢，但我希望你知道，这次感觉非同寻常。” 我当时把这番话听了进去。坦白讲，我当然由衷希望他能得到幸福。我甚至拿她小他 19 岁这件事开了个玩笑。克里斯当时还搬出了一套所谓的约会公式，说什么“自己的年龄除以二再加上七岁”之类的……
Original English **Denise Ryan**: He was You know, you can know somebody so well. Voice drops a little bit. Okay, what's happening? He's dating somebody new. He's a little embarrassed to say she's 19 years younger than him. Uh and it might be serious. He said, "We're taking it very slowly, but I want you to know that this feels different." So, I took that in. You know, of course I want him I want him to be happy. I made a joke about the 19 years younger, and I think he said there's some sort of formula. It's your age minus 7 * 2, and
**安娜·马丁**: 我也听说过那个公式，听起来一点都不科学。[笑]
Original English **Anna Martin**: I've heard about that. It doesn't feel like scientific to me.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [笑] 是啊，但他们恰好符合那套所谓的公式。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: [laughter] And I somehow they fit that formula. I was like,
**安娜·马丁**: “年龄的一半加七”，好像确实是这么算的。听起来你当时用幽默化解了那一刻的尴尬与冲击，但幽默的背后潜藏着什么真实情绪呢？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Half your age plus 7. I think that's what it is. That's what it is. Yeah, half your age plus 7. I mean, so it sounds like you're diffusing this moment with some humor, but what's behind that?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [轻叹] 我觉得真正触动我神经的是年龄差距。因为我很清楚，一个比我年轻十九或二十岁的女人，几乎必然会渴望拥有自己的孩子。我开始担忧：这会如何改变我们这个破碎家庭的相处机制？
Original English **Denise Ryan**: [snorts] I think what's behind that I think the age difference really came into play with that because I knew that a woman who was 19 or 20 years younger than me would probably want kids. And how would that change the dynamic of our family relationship. I wondered.
**安娜·马丁**: 当时内心有嫉妒吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Was there a jealousy there?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 与其说是嫉妒，倒不如说是一种深沉的伤感。我原本一直希望能多生几个孩子，但我生育的时间本就偏晚，现在对我而言再生育已经彻底不可能了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Um it wasn't jealousy so much as sadness. I had wanted to have more kids. I had started a bit late. And um now it was too late for me.
**安娜·马丁**: 你遗憾没能给亚历山大带来弟弟妹妹。
Original English **Anna Martin**: If Alexander had siblings, yeah.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，我一直深切地希望他能有兄弟姐妹相伴，但我没能做到。虽然当时他们才刚起步，但我无法不去想：万一他们结婚生子了呢？
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah. I wanted I had wanted him to have siblings. And I hadn't been able to give him a sibling. It was still very early, but would they marry? Would they have kids?
**安娜·马丁**: 在克里斯向你坦白了他的新女友**安吉拉**（Angela）之后，两人的关系不断升温。你当时有正式见过安吉拉吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: After after Chris tells you about his new girlfriend, Angela, they keep seeing each other, and did you meet Angela?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 其实我很久都没有真正见过她，这跟我周围其他离异家庭的做法很不一样。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: You know, I didn't really meet her, which was a little bit different than some of my friends.
**安娜·马丁**: 你对这种疏离怎么看？
Original English **Anna Martin**: What did you make of that?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我当时也不知道该怎么理解，只感到彼此之间横亘着一种刻意的距离。而最直接的冲击是——我和克里斯之间曾经无比频繁的日常电话，戛然而止了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I didn't really know what to make of it. Except that there was a there was a distance. And that was impacting. Well, the phone calls had stopped as well.
**安娜·马丁**: 你和克里斯之间的电话彻底中断了？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Between you and Chris, fully stopped.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，大约是在他和安吉拉订婚前后彻底停止的。我再也无法像过去那样了解克里斯每天在经历什么，也不再清楚儿子在他父亲那边的点滴琐事。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah. Yeah. Around the time that he and Angela got engaged, I guess. And I didn't know what was happening for Chris on a daily basis.
**安娜·马丁**: 这让你处于怎样的境地？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Where did that leave you?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 这让我彻底成了一个“局外人”（on the outside）。你知道，离婚后的单亲育儿往往是极其孤独的。正如我之前所言，除了亲生父母，世上没有人会那样毫无保留地深爱你的骨肉。过去无论发生什么，我总能拿起电话打给克里斯，哪怕我们已经不再是夫妻，我们依然是共同呵护孩子的最亲密战友。但现在，那扇门被猛然关上了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: It left me on the outside. You know, parenting after divorce can be lonely. Like I said, nobody loves your child the way your co-parent does. So you know, you can't just pick up the phone and call someone else, and and I couldn't pick up the phone and call him.
--- ### 世界上最好吃的烤干酪辣玉米片 **安娜·马丁**: 那种处境确实无比艰难。你身上展现出了一种非常难能可贵的情感定力与气度。但面对前夫新组建的幸福家庭，内心真的没有任何波澜吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Yeah, that's really hard. I mean, you are you have a remarkable um kind of centered I don't know. You have a lot of grace, I guess, is what I want to say about this, but were you angry at all?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 噢，怎么可能没有！我至今依然无比清晰地记得亚历山大第一次去见安吉拉的情景。当儿子回到家，我故作轻松地问：“宝贝，这次去感觉怎么样呀？”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, no. You know, I mean, I still remember so vividly when when Alexander first went to meet Angela. And he came home and I said, "So, how did it go?"
**安娜·马丁**: 作为一个母亲，肯定忍不住想知道。[叹气]
Original English **Anna Martin**: Of course. [sighs]
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 儿子兴奋地脱口而出：“噢！她太棒了！她长得好漂亮！她人特别幽默！而且她做的**烤干酪辣玉米片**（nachos）简直是天下第一绝！”我当时整个人愣在原地，心想：“天哪，居然败给了一盘烤玉米片？！”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, she's great. She's so pretty. She's so funny. Uh she makes great nachos. And I thought "Great nachos? Really?"
**安娜·马丁**: [笑] 致命一击竟然是烤干酪辣玉米片！
Original English **Anna Martin**: It's the nachos, Jesse. [laughter]
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 没错！就是玉米片！
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah, exactly.
**安娜·马丁**: 这实际上暴露了一个非常微妙而关键的问题：此时此刻，你的儿子开始成为你获取前夫新家庭生活信息的唯一情报源了。
Original English **Anna Martin**: I mean, but this also brings up something interesting, which is your son is now the primary source of information about their life.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 关键在于，我从孩子那里能了解到的实在太有限了，这再次让我深感自己成了一个被排斥在外的局外人。那个小小的男孩在穿梭于两个截然不同的家庭生活之间，其中一个世界是我一无所知的。 而现在，他们正在全力构筑起属于他们的新家庭：举行订婚典礼、举办盛大的教堂婚礼。我内心充满了挫败感，却又无能为力，因为我的儿子真心实意地非常喜欢她。当儿子兴高采烈地跑回家告诉我那是他这辈子吃过最好吃的烤玉米片时，他根本无法理解这句话对于坐在他对面的母亲意味着什么，他更不知道这有多么刺痛我的心。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Well, I wasn't finding out enough, and that made me that again, left me feeling like an outsider. And here was this little boy experiencing these two lives. One of which was this whole mystery that was happening. That I knew nothing about. And now, they were building a family together. They got engaged, they got married, they had a big church wedding. And I couldn't win because he really liked her. And when he came home and said those were the best nachos he'd ever had, he didn't understand the impact that that had, sitting across from me, and how hurtful that was.
**安娜·马丁**: 那种感觉，是不是就像他们真的把你梦寐以求的“白色栅栏”高堂大厦建起来了，而你却只能孤零零地站在栅栏外面远远观望？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Oh. Did it feel like they were building the house with the picket fence, and you were outside of the fence?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 他们确实建起来了。不仅是象征意义上的，他们甚至在物理意义上真的建起了带白色木栅栏的花园洋房！
Original English **Denise Ryan**: They did. They did build the house with the picket
**安娜·马丁**: 天哪，他们家居然真的立了一圈真正的白色栅栏！
Original English **Anna Martin**: They literally had a fence that was a picket.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [笑] 是的！他们在城郊买下了一栋如诗如画的美丽独立屋。盛大的订婚典礼、隆重的教堂婚礼、乡间的宽敞大屋、养了可爱的猫猫狗狗……接下来，自然就是添丁生子了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: [laughter] They got a beautiful home together in a suburb just outside of our city. They were having a life that I couldn't give him. Engagement, church wedding, house in the country, dogs, cats, and then babies.
**安娜·马丁**: 稍后回来，请继续收听。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Stay with us.
--- ### 姜饼人礼物袋：被推开的紧闭门扉 **安娜·马丁**: 你通过儿子亚历山大得知的另一件大事，就是他们迎来了两人的第一个宝宝，对吗？请讲讲你当时得知这个消息时的感受。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Another thing that you found out about through Alexander was them having their first baby, right? Tell me about finding out about that.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 当我得知她怀孕的那一刻，我脑海中冒出的第一个念头竟然是：“她会生一个女儿吗？”因为我一直梦寐以求想要一个女儿。幸运的是，后来查出是个男孩，我当时心里暗暗松了一口气。据说那个大儿子出生后整整两年都不肯好好睡觉。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Mhm. When I learned that she was pregnant, my first thought was is she going to have a girl? Because I had really wanted a girl. Oh, luckily. On top of that, apparently he didn't sleep for 2 years.
**安娜·马丁**: 虽然我们现在能笑着谈论它，但在当时那绝对是非常复杂微妙的时刻。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Okay, so I mean it's it's it's again, we're laughing but it's it's it's meaningful.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 是的，那非常具有挑战性。作为一名单亲妈妈，很多时候你只能和儿子两个人坐在餐桌两端面面相觑。所以当他和安吉拉搬到一起组建了他们热闹的新家庭时，我很清楚每到圣诞节克里斯开车接走亚历山大后，儿子在那里所享受到的热闹与圆满，是我一个人无论如何也无法给予他的。而在那样的节日里，我只能独自一人坐在家里看着流媒体视频，苦苦等待着儿子回家。 但我永远忘不了亚历山大和安吉拉共度完第一个圣诞节回家的那天。他手里捧着一个沉甸甸的巨大礼品袋，那竟然是安吉拉亲手为我精心准备的圣诞礼袋！儿子当时满脸放光，能亲手把这份礼物转交给我，他兴奋自豪极了。 不仅如此，安吉拉还带着亚历山大一起亲手烤制了全家的姜饼人饼干。安吉拉不仅为她自己庞大亲友圈里的每一位成员烤制了专属的姜饼人，她一定还温柔地询问了亚历山大：“在你的生命中，还有谁是对你非常重要的人呢？” 在那一盒包装极其精美的姜饼人托盘里，赫然放着他们一起精心装饰的饼干：有一个黑头发的姜饼人，那代表着长着黑发的我；还有一个顶着一头滑稽金发的姜饼人，代表着我母亲；甚至还有一个专门做成我们家小狗查理（Charlie）模样的姜饼小狗！看到那一幕，我的心被深深地震撼和感动了。 事后回想起来，我意识到那或许正是安吉拉主动向我推开的一扇紧闭的门扉，好让我能以某种方式走进他们的生活。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Mhm. Yeah, challenging and you know, when you're a single parent a lot of times it's just the two of you staring at the table across you know, across the table at each other. Especially a boy mom. So when he and Angela moved in together and started their own family I knew that on Christmas day when Chris picked him up and he went over there, he would have what I couldn't give him and there I was watching Netflix, you know, waiting for him to come home. But I remember the first Christmas with Angela, he came home and he had this big bag of gifts and it was a gift bag that Angela had made for me. And you know, his face was shining. He was so excited to be able to give me that bag of gifts. And on top of that, she had baked with him gingerbread cookies. And I guess she had made a gingerbread cookie to represent everybody in the family and her big extended family, but she must have also said to him, "Who is important to you?" And there was a tray beautifully wrapped with a gingerbread cookie that they had decorated together that looked like me with my black hair, one that looked like my mom with her funny blonde hair, one that looked like our dog Charlie. And I was really really touched by that. Later in retrospect, I could look back at that and say, maybe that was Angela opening the door so that I could walk through it in some way.
**安娜·马丁**: 那时候的你，心理上做好穿过那扇门的准备了吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Were you ready to walk through it?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我不知道自己是否真正做好了准备，更不知道具体该如何迈步。在隐喻层面上，那扇门或许已经被她轻轻推开了，但在现实空间中，我们彼此之间依然保持着非常遥远的距离。那个举动固然无比温暖、体贴且善良，但那份善意究竟完全是看在孩子的份上，还是也是为我准备的？我当时心里毫无把握。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I don't know if I was ready to walk through it. I also didn't know how. You know, metaphorically it might have been her opening the door, but physically we were still very much separated. So, although the gesture was so beautiful and loving and kind, was the gesture for him? Or was it something for me? I didn't know.
--- ### 重症监护室里的新生危机 **安娜·马丁**: 我从你的文章中得知，克里斯和安吉拉后来迎来了他们的第二个孩子。你能为我们讲讲那个孩子降生时的惊险经过吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: I know from your essay that Chris and Angela have a second baby. And I wonder if you could tell me the story of of that birth and what happened.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 当他们的大儿子杰克（Jack）出生时，是我开车把亚历山大送到产科病房门口放他下车，让他独自上楼去初次看望刚出生的小弟弟。而当他们怀上第二胎时，我内心再次如坐针毡地期盼着到底是个男孩还是女孩。谢天谢地，又是一个健康的男孩。 然而意外突如其来。克里斯突然给我打来电话——也可能是我打给他的，我问他：“下午放学后我需要把亚历山大送过去医院看弟弟吗？”电话那头克里斯的声音异常低沉平淡，那是一种让我瞬间警铃大作的绝望语调。他声音沙哑地说：“别送过来。千万不要。” 原来刚出生的婴儿感染了严重的**呼吸道合胞病毒**（RSV），病情极度危重，已经被紧急转送进了重症监护室（ICU）。亚历山大根本无法探视。夫妻俩经历了极度漫长痛苦的阵痛分娩，早已精疲力竭，而更残酷的是，医生刚刚冷酷地告知他们：孩子极有可能熬不过今晚，甚至熬不过今天白天。 在那万分焦灼的生死时刻，我和克里斯之间昔日的紧密联结与深切关怀再次被彻底唤醒了，我极度心疼他正在面对的灭顶之灾。我急切地问他：“克里斯，我能为你们做点什么吗？”我心里当时盘算着哪怕帮他们去喂喂猫、给家里的植物浇浇水都好。但他疲惫地告诉我，他现在必须立刻赶去外婆家接他们的大儿子杰克，而安吉拉此时正独自一人守在医院里，“安吉拉现在大概真的很需要一杯香草拿铁”。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: When they had their first child, Jack, I was the person who delivered Alexander to the door of the maternity ward and dropped him off, and he went up to meet Jack. And I thought when they had their second child, again I was on pins and needles waiting to find out whether it would be a girl or a boy. It was a boy, again, thank God. Um Actually, Chris called. Or maybe I called him, said, "Should I Should I bring Alexander after school?" And there was a flatness in his voice, a tone that really alarmed me, and he said, "No. No." The baby had contracted RSV and was critically ill and had been put into ICU. So, Alexander couldn't come to visit. They had had a long labor. They were both exhausted and they had been told that the baby might not make it through the night. And then the baby might not make it through the day. And in that moment it was it was Chris and I, you know, with our closeness again and my care for him and what he was facing. And I said, "Can I Can I do anything for you?" I was thinking you know feed the cat water the plants. He said he had to go pick up Jack, their first child, from his oma, from his grandma. And Angela could probably really use a vanilla latte.
**安娜·马丁**: [轻笑] 他居然开口让你去买？
Original English **Anna Martin**: [snorts]
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我当时心里一愣：他这是在拜托我亲自去给她送一杯香草拿铁吗？我马上追问了一句：“要不我亲自给她送一杯过去？”克里斯如释重负地说：“那真的太好了，她现在完全是孤身一人在病房里。” 于是我立刻动身赶往医院。一路上我心里七上八下，我根本吃不准安吉拉会不会排斥见到我。我知道她极其渴望那一杯香草拿铁，但我绝不敢确定她是否愿意见到我这个人。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I thought is he asking me to go bring her a vanilla latte? Uh I said, "Should I bring her one?" And he said, "Yeah, that would be great. She's alone." So, I went to the hospital. I didn't know whether she would want me there. I knew she wanted a vanilla latte, but I didn't know whether she wanted me.
**安娜·马丁**: 当时你心里肯定非常忐忑不安吧？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Yeah, were you nervous?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 非常紧张。我不知道自己一个前妻究竟能为她提供什么样的情感支持。因此我在医院一楼的礼品店里逗留了很久来掩饰内心的不安。我疯狂地过度补偿：买了一大堆杂志，买了一大堆高档巧克力，然后才硬着头皮走上病房楼层。 走到病房门前，我小心翼翼地把头从门边探进去。我一手托着装有热拿铁的托盘，另一手拎着沉甸甸的慰问礼品袋，悬着心等在门口，试探着看她是只想让我把东西放下就走，还是愿意让我进去。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I was and I didn't know what I could offer her either. So, I think I spent a little too much time in the gift shop. I overcompensated. And I bought magazines, I bought chocolates, and I went up to the room. And so, I just kind of poked my head around the corner really gingerly and I I the lattes in a tray. I had this big bag of gifts for her, and I just was waiting to see whether she wanted me to just drop it off.
**安娜·马丁**: 嗯，然后呢？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Yeah.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 但安吉拉虚弱地抬起头对我说：“快请进吧。”于是我走进了病房。那一刻的安吉拉看起来是那么无助、孤单与脆弱。在病房正中央摆放着一台婴儿保温箱，上面密密麻麻地连接着各种巨大的监护仪器、屏幕和维持婴儿氧气呼吸的管线。那个初生的小婴儿整个脑袋都被一个巨大的氧气面罩紧紧包裹着，就像戴着一顶笨拙的太空宇航头盔。整台保温箱在昏暗的病房里闪烁着冰冷的光芒，就像一艘随时可能熄火升空、悄然漂走的孤独太空飞船。 我轻声问她：“宝宝情况怎么样了？”安吉拉带着哭腔回答：“我们现在完全不知道……医生也给不出明确的结论。他的血氧指标一会儿上升，一会儿又骤然暴跌……” 正当我伫立在病床前看着那一幕时，我内心深处猛然醒悟：**躺在那里的，是我儿子的亲生弟弟啊！** 为了我自己的儿子，我愿意付出任何代价、冒任何风险去保住这个弱小婴儿的生命！因为如果这个幼小的生命没能挺过来，我儿子在那个新家庭中所体验到的所有崭新幸福，也都会像那艘太空船一样彻底破碎飘散。在那一刻，所有的芥蒂都烟消云散了，我唯一能做的，就是坐到安吉拉身边，竭尽全力让她振作一点。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: But she said, "Come on in." And so I did. I walked in. And Angela looked so alone. And in the middle of the hospital room was this incubator, and it was attached to these great giant screens and machines that were keeping the baby alive with oxygen. He had a uh mask, an oxygen mask that went over his whole head like a space helmet. And this little incubator looked like a spaceship, you know, something that could just pick up and float away. So, I said, "How's he doing?" And she said, "We We don't really know. They can't tell us anything. His oxygen goes up. His oxygen dips down." And I knew as I was standing there that was my son's baby brother. And I would have done anything. I would have risked anything to keep that baby alive for my son because if the baby didn't make it, all of the happiness that he was experiencing in this new family would float away, too. And all I could do was sit down with Angela and try to cheer her up a little bit.
--- ### “我们能看得出他爸爸是谁吗？” **安娜·马丁**: 这情景实在太令人动容了。在那个极端脆弱的生死关头，她向你伸出了求助之手，你也向她递出了善意之手，你们两个人共同分担着这沉重的命运。但在那个当下，你们并没有坐下来直白严肃地谈论任何沉重复杂的大道理，对吧？你们当时彼此都说了些什么？
Original English **Anna Martin**: You know, it strikes me that in this situation, you know, she is extending a hand to you. You're extending it. Both of you are sort of in this together, but you're also not talking explicitly about anything about the hard stuff, right? What were you What were you saying to each other?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我记得当时我注视着那个被硕大太空宇航头盔遮盖得严严实实的小脸蛋，脱口开了一句玩笑：“我的意思是，这小家伙的脸全被面罩遮住了，咱们现在能看得出来他爸爸到底是谁吗？”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Um I mean, I remember looking at his face covered with this giant space helmet and saying, "I mean, I can barely see what it looks like. Do we even know who his father is?"
**安娜·马丁**: [大笑] 快告诉我安吉拉当时笑了没有？
Original English **Anna Martin**: [laughter] And tell me Angela laughed.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 她当场噗嗤一声笑了出来！
Original English **Denise Ryan**: She laughed.
**安娜·马丁**: 果然笑了！
Original English **Anna Martin**: Of course.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 她放声笑了。那一刻我心里暗自对自己说：“好了，我可以胜任这个角色。我能逗她笑，我能让这间压抑窒息的病房氛围轻松起来。这里并不需要被绝望与沉重所统治，也许我此刻坐在这里的真正使命，恰恰就是驱散这份压抑。”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: She laughed. So, I thought, "Oh, okay. I can do this, you know. I can make her laugh. I can lighten things up a little bit. Um this doesn't have to be a heavy moment. Maybe my role is is is to to do the opposite."
**安娜·马丁**: 在那个病房里，你们俩有没有过哪怕一瞬间的困惑与对视，仿佛在无声地发问：“克里斯到底发了什么疯，居然拜托我来送这杯香草拿铁？为什么偏偏是我？”你们有过这样的面面相觑吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Did you two have a moment in that hospital room where you were like, "Why did Chris ask me to bring the vanilla latte? Like, why me?" Like, did you have that kind of moment or no?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 我觉得彼此心照不宣。当时那场面的确透着一种滑稽的荒诞感。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: I think so. I mean, I think it was a little weird.
**安娜·马丁**: 确实透着几分古怪！他难道不能拜托安吉拉自己的闺蜜或朋友送过来吗？
Original English **Anna Martin**: It's a little weird. I mean, it's Couldn't he ask one of her friends or something? Like, it it's just
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 事后我的闺蜜们听说了都惊呼：“她自己的朋友都去哪儿了？！”我说：“我怎么知道！当时她身边空无一人，而我就在那儿。”
Original English **Denise Ryan**: My friends were like, "Where are her friends?" And they're like, "I don't know. Nobody was there." I was there.
**安娜·马丁**: 在那之前，你脑海中充斥着对安吉拉的各种想象与预设——那些完全基于儿子亚历山大带回来的只言片语拼凑出的形象：她做的烤干酪辣玉米片天下第一，她漂亮风趣……但在那个真实的病房里，真实的安吉拉究竟是什么样子的？
Original English **Anna Martin**: you had all these ideas about Angela. Um you know, based on what Alexander told you. Great nachos, you know. But what was she really like in that moment? What [snorts] about Who What was the reality of Angela, right? You would You thought she was taking Alexander away.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 她在几个小时前才刚刚经历了撕心裂肺的分娩。她那么温柔体贴，聪明而美丽，完全配得上亚历山大对她所有的赞美之词。 而血淋淋的现实是：**她从来都不是我的任何威胁。** 她由衷地深爱着我的儿子，她从来没有一分一秒想要把他从我身边抢走。 在某种意义上，是我欠她一份信任。我们从未把这些话搬上台面挑明过，时至今日我们也未曾明确坐下来深谈过。但在那一刻我无比确信：一种深厚而牢固的情感联结已经诞生了——在她与我的儿子之间，也在她与我之间。而这，归根结底正是一个家庭的本质，哪怕它与你最初设想中的模样大相径庭。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Yeah, I mean, she gave birth just hours before, you know. She's so sweet. She's smart. She's beautiful. She's all of the things that Alexander said she was. And the reality was she was no threat to me. She loved my son. She didn't want to take him away from me. And I owed her in a way I owed her my trust. And we didn't talk about it explicitly. We still haven't talked about it explicitly. But what I knew was that there was connection. There was connection between her and my son. There was connection between her and I. And that's ultimately what family is, even if it doesn't look like what you think it's going to look like.
--- ### 超越“白色栅栏”的现代家庭 **安娜·马丁**: 当你离开医院之后，你和安吉拉之间的相处模式发生改变了吗？比如在接送孩子时会不会多停留一会儿聊聊天？你们之间的关系究竟发生了怎样的变化？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Mhm. After you left the hospital, did your relationship with Angela change? I don't know. Did you sort of linger at the drop-off or the pick-up? Did you talk more? Like did your relationship change and if so, how?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 那个婴儿后来奇迹般地康复脱险了，但我并没有接到克里斯打来向我通报喜讯的电话。我依然是从我儿子亚历山大的口中得知的，儿子高兴地告诉我弟弟好转了，已经出院回家了，一切都平安无事。我当时心里忍不住苦笑了一下：“好吧，一切又打回原形了，我又是最后一个知情的人。” 但在我的内心深处，某种坚冰已经悄然融化，发生了根本性的质变。对于这整个家庭的处境，我感到了一种前所未有的舒坦与释怀，面对她时我也更加心安理得。在此之后，我们两个家庭确实更加自然地融合在了一起：在学校的家长会上，我对安吉拉的出席不再怀有抵触情绪；当她出现在儿子的足球赛或棒球赛场边时，我也能感到发自内心的自在与坦然。我不确定自己是否已经把这种转变表达得足够清晰。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: You know, the baby recovered and I did not get a call from Chris to tell me that. I learned from Alexander, from my son, that the baby was better and he was at home. Everything was fine. And I thought, okay, we're back to the way things were. I'm the last to know. But internally for me something had changed. And I think I just felt more comfortable with the whole situation. I felt more comfortable with her. And then our families did get a little bit more integrated, you know, there were I wasn't resistant to having her at a parent-teacher conference. I felt more comfortable if she was there at soccer or at baseball and so I don't think I'm articulating this very well.
**安娜·马丁**: 不，你表达得极其精准到位。我非常欣赏你刚才所说的这种真实——它并不是迪士尼或贺曼电影（Hallmark）里那种虚伪浪漫的桥段，不是那种一夜之间所有人突然亲如一家围坐在一起过圣诞节、你和安吉拉立刻变成无话不谈的闺蜜的假象。现实生活绝非如此。
Original English **Anna Martin**: No, you are. And what I appreciate about what you're saying is it wasn't the Disney or Hallmark version where suddenly you're all doing Christmas together and you know, you and Angela are best friends. That's not
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 确实不是那样。我们平时私底下根本不会相约出去聚会闲逛。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: True. We don't hang out.
**安娜·马丁**: 是啊，你们不会出去闲逛，现实往往要含蓄微妙得多。真正发生巨变的，是你内心深处的某种认知。我想弄明白那究竟是一种怎样的蜕变，它为你带来了什么。接下来的终极问题是：丹妮丝·莱恩，对现在的你而言，“家庭”到底意味着什么？
Original English **Anna Martin**: Yeah, you don't hang out. It's much more subtle. The thing that's changed is something in you and I want to understand what that change is and what that's done for you. And so the question that follows is what does family mean to you now, Denise Fran?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: [感叹] 哎呀，天哪。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, boy.
**安娜·马丁**: [笑] 一个微不足道的小问题而已。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Just a small, you know. [laughter]
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 呃……
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Uh
**安娜·马丁**: 你今天分享的这整个跌宕起伏的人生故事，其实都是在回答这个核心命题。但此时此刻，我想直接问你：现在的你到底是如何看待家庭的？因为亚历山大今年已经多大了？
Original English **Anna Martin**: You've been this whole story is sort of your answer to this to that question, but I I but I want to ask it to you directly now. Yeah, what it what does it mean to you? Because now Alexander is how old?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 噢，他今年已经 24 岁了。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Oh, he's 24.
**安娜·马丁**: 他都 24 岁了。那么今天，当我们坐在这里促膝长谈时，在你的心目中，“家庭”的定义究竟是什么？
Original English **Anna Martin**: He's 24. Okay. Today, as as we sit here, what does family mean to you now? How do you think about it?
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 一个家庭是否能够独立存在于我当年所执念的那座“白色木栅栏”童话幻想之外？**答案是肯定的，它完全可以超越那座白色栅栏而独立存在。** 你知道，有时候它就像是在无边黑暗中突然朝你抛来的一根救命绳索，只要你愿意伸手牢牢抓住它。它绝不需要拘泥于我当年在父母决裂时以为自己彻底丢失的东西，也无需拘泥于我和克里斯婚姻破裂时所粉碎的幻梦。 家庭可以演变出千姿百态的形式与轮廓。我认为这些年来整个社会观念的包容与演进，也帮助我真正消化并接纳了这一理念——因为如今家庭的表达方式是如此多元，甚至挚友之间也能凝结为亲如骨肉的家人。我必须学会向这种宽广的可能性敞开心扉，在各种意料之外的角落里重新发现它，并全然拥抱它所有的残缺与不完美。 **我深信，爱能够在离婚的废墟上浴火重生并长久留存。我知道，因为我的亲身经历就是明证。**
Original English **Denise Ryan**: You know, can family exist outside of the white picket fence fantasy that I had? It does. It does exist outside of that. You know, sometimes it's like a rope thrown in the darkness that you can grab on to. It doesn't have to be what I thought I lost when my parents split up or when Chris and I split up. It can take different forms and different shapes and I think the way society has changed too over the years has helped me integrate that because there are so many different ways in which family can be expressed, even through friends as family. And I had to become more open to that and find it in different places and embrace it in all of its imperfections. I think that love can survive divorce. I know it did for me.
--- ### 尾声与制作团队致谢 **安娜·马丁**: 丹妮丝·莱恩，非常感谢你今天能来和我畅谈这一切，我由衷地感激。
Original English **Anna Martin**: Denise Ryan, thank you so much for talking to me today. I really appreciate it.
**丹妮丝·莱恩**: 非常感谢你，安娜。这真的是一段无比美妙愉快的谈话经历。虽然中间流了几滴眼泪，但一切都很值得。
Original English **Denise Ryan**: Thank you so much, Anna. It's been an absolute pleasure. A few tears, but that's okay.
**安娜·马丁**: 如果你想阅读激发本次深度对话的丹妮丝·莱恩所著《现代爱情》精选专栏文章，文章标题名为《请像我一样爱我的儿子》（Please Love My Son as I do），我们已经将文章链接附在了本期节目的展示笔记（show notes）中。 《现代爱情》播客团队成员包括戴维斯·兰德（Davis Land）、阿丽莎·古铁雷斯（Alissa Gutierrez）、琳·利维（Lynn Levy）、里瓦·戈德堡（Riva Goldberg）以及莎拉·柯蒂斯（Sarah Curtis）。本期节目由里瓦·戈德堡和戴维斯·兰德联合制作，由琳·利维担纲编辑。混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯（Daniel Ramirez）。录音团队包括麦迪·马西耶洛（Maddie Maasielo）、尼克·皮特曼（Nick Pittman）、凯尔·格雷尼德洛（Kyle Grenidlo）以及萨曼莎·温特（Samantha Winter）。特别鸣谢布鲁克·明特斯（Brooke Minters）。本期节目的原创音乐由玛丽安·洛萨诺（Marian Lozano）、黛安·黄（Diane Wong）和丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）创作，丹·鲍威尔同时也是我们节目片头主题曲的创作者。《现代爱情》专栏主编为丹尼尔·琼斯（Daniel Jones），米娅·李（Mia Lee）担任《现代爱情》项目策划编辑。如果你也想向《纽约时报》投稿自己的亲历散文或微型爱情故事（tiny love story），请参考节目展示笔记中的详细投稿说明。 我是安娜·马丁，由衷感谢大家的收听。
Original English **Anna Martin**: If you want to read Denise Ryan's Modern Love essay that inspired this conversation, it's called Please Love My Son as I do. We'll put it in the show notes. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alissa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg and Davis Land. It was edited by Lynn Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Our show was recorded by Maddie Maasielo, Nick Pittman, Kyle Grenidlo, and Samantha Winter. Special thanks to Brooke Minters. Original music in this episode by Marian Lozano, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.