Introduction

Interviewer: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Tulsi Gabbard. Hello. Nice to see you, Tulsi. Thanks for coming.

采访者: 女士们先生们，请欢迎图尔西·加巴德。你好，很高兴见到你，图尔西。感谢你的到来。

Tulsi Gabbard: Thank you for being here. Thank you. Aloha, everybody.

图尔西·加巴德: 感谢你们来到这里。谢谢。大家好（Aloha）。

Declassifying the Russiagate Hoax

Interviewer: In the words of President Trump, you are the hottest member of the administration. I think he means in the sense of having released the biggest news story of the year and specifically files. You declassified and released a series of files related to the whole Russiagate (通俄门：关于俄罗斯政府涉嫌干预2016年美国总统大选以帮助唐纳德·特朗普竞选的政治丑闻) hoax and many of the documents are just stunning. Can you just maybe this is the place to start, but just at a very high level, what exactly happened? I mean, I think we saw for years there were all these accusations that somehow that that Trump was a agent of Putin of Russia. Was that all just made up? And who made it up? How did that happen?

采访者: 用特朗普总统的话说，你是本届政府中最“火热”的成员。我想他的意思是你发布了年度最重磅的新闻故事，特别是那些文件。你解密并公布了一系列与整个**“通俄门”**（Russiagate：关于俄罗斯政府涉嫌干预2016年美国总统大选以帮助唐纳德·特朗普竞选的政治丑闻）骗局相关的文件，其中许多文件都令人震惊。或许我们可以从这里开始，能否从宏观层面讲讲，到底发生了什么？我的意思是，我们多年来看到各种指控，说特朗普是普京和俄罗斯的代理人。这些都是编造的吗？是谁编造的？这一切是如何发生的？

Tulsi Gabbard: This really speaks to the power of the intelligence community and the power of quote unquote intelligence. As you know these headlines were turning out about Trump is a Putin puppet or he is colluding with Putin in order to get elected. We're going back to the 2016 election here. If you're just watching the headlines from home, you got to believe that there's some credibility here, that there's some intelligence that's actually driving this. And that really is the significance of the documents that we uncovered, declassified, and released that shows how intelligence and information can be actually manipulated intentionally so that it shows something that is not reflective of the truth at all.

图尔西·加巴德: 这确实说明了情报界的力量以及所谓“情报”的力量。如你所知，当时充斥着各种头条新闻，说特朗普是普京的傀儡，或者他为了当选而与普京勾结。我们现在回到2016年大选。如果你只是在家里看新闻标题，你很可能会相信这其中有一定可信度，有某种情报在驱动这一切。而这正是我们发现、解密并公布的这些文件的重大意义所在，它们揭示了情报和信息是如何被蓄意操纵，以展示出一种完全不反映真相的东西。

Tulsi Gabbard: What we essentially saw throughout President Trump's candidacy in 2016 and throughout his four years in office, the documents we uncovered really served as the foundation for the weapon that was used to undermine his presidency, to try to undermine the outcome of that 2016 election and really usurp the will and the voices of the people who elected Donald Trump.

图尔西·加巴德: 我们在2016年特朗普总统的竞选期间以及他执政的四年里所看到的，基本上是这样的：我们发现的这些文件，实际上成了被用来削弱他总统职权的武器的基础，用来试图颠覆2016年大选结果，并真正篡夺了选举唐纳德·特朗普的人民的意愿和声音。

The Timeline of a Politicized Narrative

Tulsi Gabbard: I'll try to run through this timeline. When we go back to that 2016 campaign, President Trump went through what was a very crowded primary at the time. Almost no one thought that he could win. He became the Republican nominee going up against Hillary Clinton. And during that time, Hillary Clinton kind of seeded the allegation that there was some collusion happening between Trump and Putin and Russia, that Putin was somehow trying to get Trump elected. What we saw then play out was now known as... we saw early signs of the weaponization of this when the FBI under Comey basically got illegal, they got warrants through the FISA court (外国情报监视法庭：一个美国联邦法院，负责监督针对美国境内外国间谍的监视授权请求) to illegally surveil Americans, Carter Page in Crossfire Hurricane and others around President Trump and his campaign at that time.

图尔西·加巴德: 我试着梳理一下这个时间线。回到2016年竞选，特朗普总统经历了一场当时非常拥挤的初选。几乎没人认为他能赢。他成为了共和党提名人，对阵希拉里·克林顿。在那期间，希拉里·克林顿种下了指控的种子，声称特朗普与普京和俄罗斯之间存在某种勾结，普京在想方设法让特朗普当选。我们随后看到的情况，就是我们很早就看到了这种武器化的迹象：在科米领导下的FBI通过FISA法庭（外国情报监视法庭：一个美国联邦法院，负责监督针对美国境内外国间谍的监视授权请求）获得了搜查令，非法监视美国公民，包括“交火飓风”行动中的卡特·佩奇以及当时特朗普总统及其竞选团队周围的其他人。

Tulsi Gabbard: November 2016, President Trump shocks the world and wins the election. The intelligence community, and the assessments in all these documents we've made public, already throughout this period of time during the campaign leading up to the general election, the intelligence community almost uniformly assessed that Putin did not have either the intent or the capability to hack the outcome of the US election. President Trump wins the election. Members of the intelligence community then go and brief members of Congress post-election and their briefing was consistent with the intelligence reports that basically said there's no evidence that Russia or Putin had any kind of impact on the outcome of the US election.

图尔西·加巴德: 2016年11月，特朗普总统震惊世界赢得大选。情报界，以及我们公开的所有这些文件中的评估，在整个竞选期间直到大选，几乎一致地评估认为普京既没有意图也没有能力去操纵美国大选的结果。特朗普赢得大选后，情报界成员向国会议员做了简报，他们的简报与情报报告一致，基本上都说没有证据表明俄罗斯或普京对美国大选结果有任何影响。

Tulsi Gabbard: Fast forward to December 8th. The president's daily brief from December 8th was consistent with all of the other assessments, essentially saying there was no interference in the outcome of the election by Russia. That brief was pulled. It was never published. It was pulled back from publishing hours before it would have hit then President Obama's desk. The next day, December 9th, the Obama administration calls a National Security Council meeting. The tasks that came from that meeting that were delivered to then Obama's DNI (国家情报总监：美国情报界的负责人) James Clapper, and we have the emails that we declassified around this, said this is a POTUS tasking on Russia meddling with the election. And what you'll see in those documents was not President Obama asking "look into the intelligence and see if Russia meddled in the election." It was "provide me with an assessment saying how Russia meddled in the election."

图尔西·加巴德: 快进到12月8日。12月8日的总统每日简报与其他所有评估一致，基本上说俄罗斯没有干预选举结果。那份简报被撤回了，从未发布。它在送达时任总统奥巴马办公桌前的几小时被撤回。第二天，12月9日，奥巴马政府召集了一次国家安全委员会会议。会议下达给时任奥巴马的DNI（国家情报总监：美国情报界的负责人）詹姆斯·克拉珀的任务——我们已经解密了相关邮件——指示这是总统关于俄罗斯干预选举的任务。在那些文件中你会看到，奥巴马总统不是在问“调查情报，看看俄罗斯是否干预了选举”，而是在说“给我一份评估，说明俄罗斯是如何干预选举的”。

Interviewer: So just to be clear, was this in that lame duck window between the election and then President Trump taking office?

采访者: 那么澄清一下，这是否发生在选举结束和特朗普总统就职之间的“跛脚鸭”时期？

Tulsi Gabbard: Right. Post November 2016. President Obama's last day, January 20th of 2017. So this document was being created by a very very small group of people within these three agencies. They got the NSA involved and ultimately that document would state what President Obama wanted it to say which was that Russia and Putin aspired to help President Trump win the election and did so through cyber means.

图尔西·加巴德: 对。2016年11月之后。奥巴马总统的最后一天是2017年1月20日。所以这份文件是由这三个机构内部一个非常小的团队创建的。他们让国家安全局（NSA）也参与进来，最终那份文件会陈述奥巴马总统希望它陈述的内容，即俄罗斯和普京渴望帮助特朗普总统赢得选举，并通过网络手段实现了这一目标。

Interviewer: The briefing doc you mentioned, the president's daily briefing doc, you can see that there was a draft written that then got pulled back.

采访者: 你提到的那份简报文件，总统的每日简报，可以看到当时有一个已经写好的草稿，后来被撤回了。

Tulsi Gabbard: Exactly. And these were some of the documents that we released. It's all on odni.gov, where we have the draft finalized president's daily brief from December 8th and then the email saying pull this back and it was never published until we...

图尔西·加巴德: 完全正确。这些就是我们公布的部分文件。所有内容都在 odni.gov 网站上，我们有12月8日那份已经定稿的总统每日简报草稿，以及那封说“撤回这份简报”的邮件，它直到我们公布之前从未被发表过。

Tulsi Gabbard: This January 2017 assessment was published on January 6th. It was very quickly leaked out to different members of the media, Washington Post, New York Times, etc. Then it was briefed to Congress. But the key thing here is that the most classified and compartmentalized pieces of intelligence they used as the basis for this total 180 intelligence assessment that was basically contradicting what the intelligence community had assessed leading up to the election. They hid those sources even from the vast majority of members of Congress because based on intelligence community tradecraft standards they were deemed even at the time to be not acceptable. One of them was the Steele Dossier (斯蒂尔档案：一份备受争议的私人情报报告，其中包含关于唐纳德·特朗普竞选团队与俄罗斯政府之间不当行为和共谋的指控), this manufactured political document that was filled with falsehoods.

图尔西·加巴德: 这份2017年1月的评估报告于1月6日发布。它很快被泄露给媒体的不同成员，《华盛顿邮报》、《纽约时报》等。然后它被简报给了国会。但这里的关键是，他们用来作为这份180度大转弯的情报评估基础的，是那些最机密、最被区隔化的情报，这份评估基本上与情报界在大选前所做的评估相矛盾。他们甚至对绝大多数国会议员隐瞒了这些情报来源，因为根据情报界的行业标准，这些来源在当时就被认为不可接受。其中之一就是斯蒂尔档案（Steele Dossier：一份备受争议的私人情报报告，其中包含关于唐纳德·特朗普竞选团队与俄罗斯政府之间不当行为和共谋的指控），那份充满了谎言、被捏造出来的政治文件。

Tulsi Gabbard: This was the document that then led to everything that happened in the four years that President Trump was in office. What we declassified and released provided further reinforcement of how politicized this document was. It showed a few things. For example, that in those sources that were hidden, Putin didn't believe Trump would win the election in 2016. He thought Hillary Clinton was going to win. Russia and Putin claimed that they had extremely derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, her health, her state of mind, allegedly illegal bribery activities. If Putin and Russia were trying to help Trump win the election, they would have done so at a critical time in October of 2016 in order to try to push him over the top. They didn't believe he could win. There is so much evidence that disproves this manufactured politicized intelligence assessment ordered by President Obama that was very conveniently hid by John Brennan, James Clapper and James Comey.

图尔西·加巴德: 这份文件导致了特朗普总统执政四年间发生的一切。我们解密并公布的内容进一步证实了这份文件是多么政治化。它揭示了几点。例如，在那些被隐藏的情报来源中，普京在2016年并不相信特朗普会赢得选举，他认为希拉里·克林顿会赢。俄罗斯和普京声称他们掌握了关于希拉里·克林顿的极其负面的信息，包括她的健康、精神状态以及据称的非法贿赂活动。如果普京和俄罗斯试图帮助特朗普赢得选举，他们本应在2016年10月的关键时刻采取行动，以助他一臂之力。但他们不相信他能赢。有如此多的证据反驳了这份由奥巴马总统下令、并被约翰·布伦南、詹姆斯·克拉珀和詹姆斯·科米非常方便地隐藏起来的、被捏造的政治化情报评估。

Historical Parallels and Consequences

Tulsi Gabbard: Why does this matter? We have seen a trend in some of the biggest intelligence failures around politicized intelligence. I'll just give this one example because it goes back to the creation of this organization that I lead, ODNI. James Clapper was an intelligence community leader during the time before our country went to war with Iraq. James Clapper wrote in his book about how Dick Cheney was telling the intelligence community, "I need you to come up with intelligence basically that will just create the narrative for us to go to war with Iraq." And in James Clapper's own words, he said that he and his colleagues were so eager to do what Dick Cheney told them to do that quote, "We created something that wasn't there." This is as someone who served in the Iraq war along with so many of my brothers and sisters in uniform. You can see the devastating consequences of politicized intelligence, the difference between war and peace.

图尔西·加巴德: 这为什么重要？我们已经看到了一些最大的情报失败都围绕着政治化的情报。我只举一个例子，因为它追溯到我所领导的这个组织——国家情报总监办公室（ODNI）的成立。詹姆斯·克拉珀在我们国家与伊拉克开战前是情报界的领导人。克拉珀在他的书中写道，迪克·切尼是如何告诉情报界：“我需要你们拿出情报，基本上就是为我们发动伊拉克战争制造一个叙事。”用克拉珀自己的话说，他和他的同事们非常急于执行切尼的指示，以至于他们“创造了一些本不存在的东西”。作为一个和众多战友一起在伊拉克战争中服役的人，你可以看到政治化情报的毁灭性后果，它决定了战争与和平。

The Motivation Behind the Hoax

Interviewer: What was the incentive or the objective to do this after the election because it seems so destabilizing?

采访者: 在选举之后做这件事的动机或目标是什么？因为它看起来极具破坏性。

Tulsi Gabbard: I think that was... I don't have paper evidence of it, but one could surmise that the intention was they all thought Hillary Clinton was going to win. President Trump won the election. You can imagine the feeling amongst the Democrats. I remember I was a Democrat in Congress at the time. Absolute devastation. What's the reaction to that? Let's see how we can completely undermine and destabilize and in their minds disarm of President Trump while he's in office. This is some of the twisted thinking that I witnessed when I was in Congress at that time was that they believed, many of these Democrat leaders really believed that they were doing the right thing for our country by trying to protect the American people from the guy that they actually voted for to be president of the United States.

图尔西·加巴德: 我想那是……我没有书面证据，但可以推测，他们的意图是基于他们都以为希拉里·克林顿会赢。结果特朗普总统赢得了选举。你可以想象民主党人中的情绪。我记得我当时是国会的一名民主党人，那是一种绝对的毁灭感。对此的反应是什么？就是看看我们如何能在他任职期间，彻底削弱他、动摇他，并在他们看来，解除他的武装。这是我当时在国会时目睹的一些扭曲思维，他们相信，许多民主党领导人真的相信，他们试图保护美国人民，让他们免受他们自己投票选出的美国总统的伤害，是在为国家做正确的事。

Reforming the Intelligence Community

Interviewer: What are you doing to clean it up?

采访者: 你正在采取什么措施来清理这一切？

Tulsi Gabbard: Well, the first step really is and this is an essential thing is about transparency and accountability. So, we have referred all of the documents that we've uncovered to the Department of Justice because the two have to go together in order for there to be real change.

图尔西·加巴德: 嗯，第一步，也是最关键的一步，是关于透明度和问责制。所以，我们已经将所有我们发现的文件移交给了司法部，因为这两者必须齐头并进，才能有真正的改变。

Interviewer: How do you lead that change, Tulsi? You're going into work and you don't know who to trust. You don't know who is part of the institution that you were up against when you came in to take this role. How do you grapple with that?

采访者: 图尔西，你如何领导这场变革？你每天去上班，却不知道该信任谁。你不知道谁是当初你接任这个职位时所要对抗的那个体系的一部分。你如何应对这一切？

Tulsi Gabbard: By being vigilant. I've made some pretty big changes within the Office of the Director of National Intelligence itself. Finding those pockets and those places that have been weaponized and politicized and really ultimately bringing a mission focus to the organization. Trimming down and slimming down our manning and personnel count so that we have the right people in the right positions who focus on the mission itself. Ultimately every day it's just about doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do and setting that culture of leadership that focuses on our responsibility to the American people, to the constitution and holding people accountable when they are not fulfilling that responsibility that they have been entrusted with.

图尔西·加巴德: 保持警惕。我已经在国家情报总监办公室内部进行了一些相当大的改革。找出那些被武器化和政治化的部门和地方，并最终为整个组织重新确立以任务为中心的焦点。精简我们的人员编制和数量，以便我们在合适的岗位上有合适的人，专注于任务本身。归根结底，每一天都只是因为正确而做正确的事，并建立一种领导文化，这种文化专注于我们对美国人民、对宪法的责任，并在人们没有履行他们被赋予的责任时追究他们的责任。

Designating Cartels as Terrorist Organizations

Interviewer: Very early into the administration, you guys declared cartels as terrorist organizations. Can you walk us through the logic of making that transition and what it enables America to do and why we did it, what the goal of that is?

采访者: 在本届政府成立初期，你们就将贩毒集团宣布为恐怖组织。你能为我们解释一下做出这一转变的逻辑，它使美国能够做什么，我们为什么这么做，以及目标是什么吗？

Tulsi Gabbard: President Trump saw very clearly the devastating effect that MS-13 and others cartels were having in our communities and on our streets in this country, making the American people less safe. This was the main thing that drove his decision to designate the worst of the worst of cartels as foreign terrorist organizations because of their activities here within our own country. So this then opens up the door for the ability to use different authorities to be able to protect the safety and security of the American people.

图尔西·加巴德: 特朗普总统非常清楚地看到了像MS-13和其他贩毒集团在我们的社区和街道上造成的毁灭性影响，这让美国人民变得更不安全。这正是促使他决定将最恶劣的贩毒集团指定为外国恐怖组织的主要原因，因为它们在我们自己国家境内的活动。所以，这为使用不同的授权来保护美国人民的安全和保障打开了大门。