世界经济论坛的角色与愿景

Nicolai Tangen: Hi everyone. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And today I'm really excited because I'm joined by my fellow Norwegian, Børge Brende. And Børge, he is the president and CEO of the World Economic Forum, the organization behind the iconic Davos gatherings and that's where the world's most powerful leaders meet each year to shape the global agenda. Um, Børge also happens to be, I think, the best connected person in the world. So, uh, Børge, pleasure to have you here.

讲述者: 大家好，我是挪威主权财富基金的首席执行官 Nicolai Tangen。今天我非常激动，因为我的挪威同胞 Børge Brende 加入了我们。Børge 是世界经济论坛（World Economic Forum：一个致力于推动公私合作的国际组织）的主席兼首席执行官，这个组织策划了标志性的达沃斯年度会议，全球最具影响力的领袖们每年在此汇聚，共同塑造全球议程。我认为，Børge 也是世界上人脉最广的人。所以，Børge，非常荣幸你能来到这里。

Børge Brende: of coming from you that means a lot um let's uh uh before we move on to the big the really big topics for listeners who uh don't know what exactly is the World Economic Forum?

讲述者: 听你这么说，意义非凡。在我们进入真正宏大的议题之前，对于那些不了解的听众，世界经济论坛究竟是什么？

Børge Brende: So the World Economic Forum is 55 years old. It is an international organization for public private cooperation. It's based here in Geneva, Switzerland. It's not for profit and as you said we're most known for our annual meeting in Davos that bring uh brings um key people from business and governments together but we have hundreds of meetings we have hundreds of different initiatives public private uh in the field of uh fighting corruption through nature and climate uh to reviving growth and trade.

讲述者: 世界经济论坛已有55年历史。它是一个旨在促进公私合作的国际组织，总部位于瑞士日内瓦。它是一个非营利组织，正如你所言，我们最著名的活动是达沃斯年会，汇聚了商界和政界的重要人物。但我们每年举办数百场会议，拥有数百个不同的公私合作倡议，领域涵盖从反腐败到自然与气候，再到重振增长与贸易。

Nicolai Tangen: How many people work at the forum? How big an organization is it?

讲述者: 论坛有多少员工？这个组织的规模有多大？

Børge Brende: So altogether um around um thousand people.

讲述者: 总共大约有一千人。

Nicolai Tangen: How do you define success for the organization? What what is it that you want to achieve?

讲述者: 你如何为这个组织定义成功？你希望实现什么目标？

Børge Brende: It is when we can get people together and we can facilitate progress.

讲述者: 当我们能将人们聚集在一起，并能促进进步时，这就是成功。

Nicolai Tangen: And what's the key to that?

讲述者: 关键是什么？

Børge Brende: So um of course in today's world where we see much more fragmentations and polarization is harder than in the past uh to get people that don't even agree in the same room. But even in the age of um nationalism and na nation states there is also overlap in interest. So what we're trying to identify uh between companies and countries if there is overlap in interest we can strike and we can maybe form an initiative we can facilitate uh the progress that I was referring to. So for example look at cyber crime we probably lose like four five trillion US dollars a year in cyber crime. That's like three 4% of the global GDP. I think even the G2, China and the US can agree that is not a good idea. So there we can work on rules and regulations uh on how to get rid of this um criminal use of uh cyber. I think there are also other areas like future pandemics. Um hopefully in the future we can come back again to have some more consensus on nature and climate. So these are areas and this is our kind of modus operandi uh today.

讲述者: 当然，在当今这个日益碎片化和两极分化的世界里，要让那些意见不合的人同处一室，比过去更加困难。但即使在民族主义和民族国家盛行的时代，利益也存在重叠之处。我们试图在公司和国家之间识别出利益的重叠点，一旦找到，我们就可以采取行动，或许可以形成一个倡议，促进我所提到的进步。例如，看看网络犯罪，我们每年可能因此损失四五万亿美元。这相当于全球GDP的3%到4%。我想，即使是G2（指代世界上两个最具影响力的国家，通常指中国和美国）的中美两国也会同意这不是个好主意。所以，我们可以在规则和条例上合作，以消除这种网络犯罪行为。我认为在其他领域也存在合作空间，比如未来的大流行病。希望未来我们能在自然和气候问题上再次达成更多共识。这些就是我们今天的运作方式和重点领域。

两个世界秩序之间的博弈

Nicolai Tangen: Burger um let's let's um kick off with some of these big uh big questions. Um what does it mean to operate between two world orders which I guess is what we're doing just now.

讲述者: Børge，我们来聊聊一些宏大的问题。在两个世界秩序之间运作意味着什么？我猜这正是我们目前所处的状况。

Børge Brende: Yeah, we are we had one world order uh after uh the cold war 89. Uh that was like a win-win thinking. what is good for you is good for me and vice versa. Uh to more of approach now that is more competitive. It's also more mercantalistic from uh the past and you know I'm not a big believer in beggar thy neighbor. I think you should rather prosper your uh neighbor but that world order uh is not there anymore. And between world orders, it's always uh unruly times. We know that from history. Some people would say that it's like multi- polarity without multilateralism. I would say it's more from soft power to hard power. there is tough competition and I just hope that the new world order also will uh bring with it uh some uh thinking of common rules so we don't end up in like the law of the jungle uh in the future. I don't think we will go uh that far but it's obviously a different world order than the one we were used to.

讲述者: 是的，我们在冷战结束后的1989年曾拥有一个世界秩序，那是一种双赢的思维模式。对你有利的也对我有益，反之亦然。而现在更多地转向了一种更具竞争性的方式。它也比过去更具重商主义色彩。你知道，我并不相信“以邻为壑”的策略。我认为你应该让你的邻居繁荣起来，但那个世界秩序已经不复存在了。在世界秩序的交替之间，总是会有一段混乱的时期，这一点我们从历史中可以得知。有人会说这就像是缺乏多边主义的多极化。我更倾向于说这是从软实力向硬实力的转变。竞争非常激烈，我只希望新的世界秩序也能带来一些共同规则的思考，这样我们未来才不会陷入“丛林法则”的境地。我认为我们不会走到那一步，但这显然是一个与我们习惯的不同的世界秩序。

Nicolai Tangen: And how far do you think this uh geopolitical fragmentation will go?

讲述者: 你认为这种地缘政治的碎片化会发展到什么程度？

Børge Brende: It's hard to say, but you know, world leaders also want to revive growth. U to be reelected, you need a good economy. And I think they will also see that if you go too far in n shoring, friend shoring and only trade with people uh you like and not uh where you get the best and cheapest products um part of your then as input factor will also come with um economic cost and you will see more sluggish uh growth. So hopefully there will not be a full decoupling. I think there is going to be a securing of the global value chains but I don't think there will be a full decoupling and additionally we are in a paradigm shift with the new technologies. I guess we'll come back to that but that can also be supportive for uh economic growth and maybe it's of course um then competition but maybe also some cooperation.

讲述者: 这很难说，但你知道，世界领导人也希望重振增长。要想再次当选，你需要一个良好的经济。我认为他们也会看到，如果你在“近岸外包”（near-shoring）、“友岸外包”（friend-shoring）上走得太远，只与你喜欢的人进行贸易，而不是从能获得最好最便宜产品的地方采购，那么你的部分投入要素也会带来经济成本，你会看到增长更加缓慢。所以，希望不会出现完全的脱钩。我认为全球价值链会得到保障，但我不认为会有完全的脱钩。此外，我们正处于新技术的范式转变之中。我想我们稍后会回到这个话题，但这也可能对经济增长起到支持作用，当然，这可能意味着竞争，但也可能带来一些合作。

Nicolai Tangen: So, in your mind, do you think this is a temporary situation or are we at the beginning of a of an even more significant split?

讲述者: 那么，在你看来，你认为这是一种暂时的状况，还是我们正处于一个更重大分裂的开端？

Børge Brende: I think we're not going to see the old era back with uh the era where you had globalization and you had um like uh the UN sharper basis of the corporation, the rule of law. I think there still will be aspects of this but I think there will be more uh strong powers. It will be interest. We will also go into a situation where uh trade will look uh differently. But hopefully it will be a real globalization and hopefully the new technologies can also play uh good factor be a good um and pass positive contributor uh to growth and not a situation where the winner takes it all.

讲述者: 我认为我们不会回到那个以全球化为特征、以联合国宪章和法治为合作基础的旧时代。我认为这些元素仍会存在，但未来将有更多强大的力量，利益将成为主导。我们也将进入一个贸易面貌截然不同的局面。但希望这将是一种真正的全球化，希望新技术也能扮演积极角色，成为增长的积极贡献者，而不是出现赢者通吃的局面。

全球经济的韧性与挑战

Nicolai Tangen: Do you think we'll see a period of economic stagnation?

讲述者: 你认为我们会看到一段经济停滞期吗？

Børge Brende: I think there are elements that are no uh slowing uh down the global growth and I think the fact that we have the highest global debt since 1945 also gives nation states um a harder time if we're going to see a recession. There is not that much of fiscal muscles. But at the same time I don't think we're going to see a repetition of the sluggish growth from the 1970s.

讲述者: 我认为现在确实有一些因素在减缓全球增长。自1945年以来，我们面临着最高的全球债务水平，这也意味着如果经济出现衰退，民族国家的财政施展空间将更为有限。但同时，我认为我们不会重蹈20世纪70年代那种增长迟滞的覆辙。

Nicolai Tangen: And why is that?

讲述者: 为什么这么说？

Børge Brende: I think as I already mentioned the new technologies are so incredibly powerful and uh the way that trade was the engine of growth for decades grew two to three times more uh than trend growth I think uh the new technologies will be the big game changer they will increase productivity maybe with 10% in the coming decade and they can then be the factors that will still continue with growth even if there is more decoupling in the global economy and the global economy has been surprisingly resilient so far even in uh a very difficult geopolitical uh situation. So I'm more half like half glass full than half glass empty.

讲述者: 正如我之前提到的，新技术的力量极其强大。几十年来，贸易一直是增长的引擎，其增速是趋势增长的两到三倍。我认为新技术将成为改变游戏规则的重要因素，它们可能在未来十年内将生产率提高10%，从而在全球经济出现更多脱钩的情况下，仍然能够维持增长。迄今为止，即使在非常困难的地缘政治局势下，全球经济也表现出了惊人的韧性。所以我更倾向于“半杯满”而不是“半杯空”的看法。

Nicolai Tangen: Why do you think the economy and financial markets have been so resilient?

讲述者: 你认为经济和金融市场为何如此有韧性？

Børge Brende: I think there uh is um we we already see uh the effect especially in the US and I think partly uh also in India uh of the new um technologies I think you're seeing productivity gains you're seeing huge investments you're going to see new breakthroughs in medicine uh in sciences that we haven't seen um in a long time. I think this is part of it and I think what we've seen so far on protectionist measures have not been so severe that um you have impacted uh too much uh the growth that was already there uh post uh COVID and also due to the huge stimulus. But it is a fact that we are growing slower now uh than uh before co and for decades we had a global trend growth of close to 4%. We are no more than we're closer to 3%. And that is not going to solve the big challenges we have globally. It's not going to lead us to meeting the sustainable development goals. It's not going to eradicate poverty in the same way as we saw in the last decades. provided that the new technologies will not bring us up closer to 4% again. And that that is my hope. And the positive thing with the new technologies, they're not polluting. They're not building like big pipes uh uh with uh huge emissions. These are this is growth uh where it's a very different growth uh than in the past. Much more sustainable.

讲述者: 我认为我们已经看到了新技术的效应，尤其是在美国，部分在印度也是如此。你看到了生产率的提升，看到了巨额的投资，你将看到医学和科学领域出现我们许久未见的新突破。我认为这是部分原因。同时，到目前为止我们所看到的贸易保护主义措施并没有严重到对后疫情时代以及巨额刺激政策带来的增长产生太大影响。但事实是，我们现在的增长速度比疫情前要慢，几十年来我们的全球趋势增长率接近4%，现在我们更接近3%。这无法解决我们全球面临的重大挑战，无法让我们实现可持续发展目标，也无法像过去几十年那样消除贫困。除非新技术能将我们的增长率再次推高至接近4%，而这正是我的希望所在。新技术的积极之处在于它们不产生污染，不会建造排放巨量废气的大型管道。这是一种与过去截然不同的增长，更具可持续性。

美欧中的经济展望与关系

Nicolai Tangen: uh back in January um in Davos um the uh the Americans were really optimistic and very bullish about the outlook whilst Europeans uh they were kind of uh more like they were in some kind of funeral. What's been um happening in the US since and just where is where do you think where do you see the US going um in a way both both at home and also at the at the world scene?

讲述者: 回到一月份在达沃斯，美国人对前景非常乐观和看好，而欧洲人则像是参加了一场葬礼。从那时起，美国发生了什么？你认为美国在国内和世界舞台上的走向如何？

Børge Brende: It's hard to predict. uh there is news every day but at the same time uh the US is like 27% of the global economy with 5% of the global population they have almost 50% of the global military power a lot of the big and most innovative companies are in the US so I think there still uh is going to be uh a vibrant economy in the US but they're also um facing inflation and immigration. The latter is high on the administration's agenda. Uh the first one is more complicated if you are paying more for imports and you're creating also a tougher uh market at home when it comes to access to labor can lead to higher inflation. So these were uh the two big eyes that was were promised by Trump fighting inflation and uh immigration. But overall I do think still that the US economy is uh very solid. I think it's going to continue to uh grow I believe more in the soft landing uh than in the hard landing. Geopolitically uh of course it is um definitely a different administration uh than um in the past and the Europeans are struggling with this but at the same time uh I think the side also has changed in Europe since Davos.

讲述者: 这很难预测。每天都有新闻，但同时，美国以全球5%的人口，占据了全球经济的27%，拥有全球近50%的军事力量，许多大型且最具创新精神的公司都在美国。所以我认为美国仍将拥有一个充满活力的经济，但他们也面临着通货膨胀和移民问题。后者是本届政府议程上的重中之重。而前者则更为复杂，如果你为进口商品支付更多费用，并且在国内劳动力市场上制造了更紧张的局面，这可能会导致更高的通货膨zhang。这就是特朗普承诺要解决的两大“I”问题：通货膨胀（Inflation）和移民（Immigration）。但总的来说，我仍然认为美国经济非常稳固。我相信它会继续增长，我更相信会是软着陆而非硬着陆。地缘政治上，这届政府当然与过去大不相同，欧洲人正在为此挣扎。但同时，我认为自达沃斯以来，欧洲的潮流也发生了变化。

Nicolai Tangen: In what ways?

讲述者: 在哪些方面？

Børge Brende: Because uh in Davos there was like gloom and doom uh when it came to Europe. I think uh things are not as bad in Europe. Uh look at the fastest growing of all the OCD economies including American economy is Spain and Spain was almost written off 20 years ago at least 15 years ago they had youth unemployment of 40%. Another very fast growing economy is Greece that was definitely written off and the whole euro was written off and it's still the second most important currency in the world. We're seeing also scientists and others coming to Europe. Europe is seen as a place uh where there is high life quality. Uh we know there is a tal talent war going on. So maybe Europe can get uh in a better shape when it comes to talent. But red tape uh bureaucracy um and uh so far not uh the most robust followup of the draggy report is holding Europe back and also internal political uh impulses. uh we have the AFD big party now uh in Germany but at the same time we um also see uh that some of the incubant parties are also uh doing better. So I'm more optimistic on Europe now than I was just a few months ago.

讲述者: 因为在达沃斯，当谈到欧洲时，气氛是悲观和绝望的。我认为欧洲的情况并没有那么糟糕。看看所有OECD（经济合作与发展组织）经济体中增长最快的，包括美国经济在内，是西班牙。而西班牙在20年前，至少是15年前，几乎被宣告破产，他们的青年失业率高达40%。另一个增长非常迅速的经济体是希腊，它当时肯定被宣告破产了，整个欧元区也曾被看衰，但欧元仍然是世界上第二重要的货币。我们也看到科学家和其他人才来到欧洲。欧洲被视为一个生活质量高的地方。我们知道一场人才争夺战正在进行。所以也许欧洲在人才方面可以变得更好。但繁文缛节、官僚主义，以及迄今为止对德拉吉报告的跟进不够有力，这些都在拖累欧洲，还有内部的政治动荡。例如，AfD（德国另类选择党）现在在德国成为一个大党，但同时我们也看到一些执政党表现得更好。所以我现在对欧洲比几个月前更乐观。

Nicolai Tangen: How do you read the relationship between US and China?

讲述者: 你如何解读美中关系？

Børge Brende: That relationship is the most important one uh in the world. the so-called G2 as I mentioned uh US almost 30% of the global GDP China almost 20 that's almost half of our global economy and they are definitely competing it's a big competition between these two nations and they have different interests swares and uh China uh has been also um constantly uh relying less on export to the US if you look Now at the Chinese export to the US, it's gone down from 20% of their export in 2013 to now I think is around 11 12%. So they're more resilient, they're more diversified. But of course uh China is also faced with economic uh domestic challenges as uh in the US. uh there is a export-led economy when export is harder and also the demand globally is changing from manufactured goods to services and digital trade and these are area where China is now trying to pivot to worse but traditionally they've been the big exporter of uh manufactured goods and there we see that the demand has peaked we also know that the property prices. There is also a shrinking of the workforce. So, China is also faced with structural challenges, but they're also very good at addressing those things and they um are making uh changes now for example in um the community for entrepreneurs and also startups and tech companies um that um I think is well noticed by this community in China.

讲述者: 这段关系是世界上最重要的关系。所谓的G2，正如我提到的，美国占全球GDP近30%，中国近20%，这几乎是我们全球经济的一半。他们无疑在竞争，这两个国家之间存在着巨大的竞争，他们有不同的利益范围。中国也一直在持续减少对美国出口的依赖。如果你看现在中国对美国的出口，已经从2013年占其总出口的20%下降到现在的11%到12%左右。所以他们更具韧性，更加多元化。但当然，中国也像美国一样，面临着国内的经济挑战。中国的经济是出口导向型，当出口变得更加困难，全球需求也从制成品转向服务和数字贸易时，中国正试图向这些领域转型。但传统上，他们一直是制成品的大出口国，而我们看到这方面的需求已经见顶。我们也知道房地产价格的问题。劳动力也在萎缩。所以，中国也面临着结构性挑战，但他们也很擅长应对这些问题，他们现在正在做出改变，例如在创业社区以及初创和科技公司方面，我认为中国的这个群体已经注意到了这些变化。

达沃斯议程的塑造与信任的建立

Nicolai Tangen: Just moving on to how you uh get to your priorities. You uh play a very big role um I mean you and the world economic forum in in in shaping the global conversations. How do you how do you decide what should be on the agenda on the end agenda in Davos?

讲述者: 接下来谈谈你如何确定优先事项。你和世界经济论坛在塑造全球对话方面扮演着非常重要的角色。你如何决定什么应该被列入达沃斯的议程？

Børge Brende: So we uh try to look at um what are the topics where we can make also progress where bringing people together at least can increase the understanding of each other's challenges and in many ways we are in the same boat and that I think we are forgetting if we are faced with transboundary challenges we cannot um solve them as uh than single nation states. We also think that while the uh while countries are now very inepted, some countries are more indeped at any time since the Napoleonic war. So it's like serious private sector is still very vibrant. They have a lot of money to invest. So um to work between private sector and government I think is the way forward also to then addressing and solving some of the key challenges. You need the private sector on board uh to also make uh the right changes. These are things we would like uh to discuss uh also in Davos in 20 uh 26.

讲述者: 我们试图关注那些我们能取得进展的议题，在这些议题上，将人们聚集在一起至少可以增进对彼此挑战的理解。在很多方面，我们同舟共济，但我想我们正在忘记这一点。如果我们面临跨界挑战，我们无法作为单一的民族国家来解决。我们还认为，虽然各国现在负债累累，一些国家的债务水平达到了自拿破仑战争以来的最高点，情况很严重，但私营部门仍然非常活跃，他们有大量的资金可以投资。因此，我认为私营部门和政府之间的合作是前进的方向，也是解决一些关键挑战的方式。你需要私营部门的参与，才能做出正确的改变。这些都是我们希望在2026年的达沃斯讨论的事情。

Nicolai Tangen: What's the best way to discuss these topics? Because uh you have big uh public sessions, you have smaller invites only tracks, you have bilateral meetings, you got all kinds of all kinds of formats. uh like what do you what do you think is the most efficient way of meeting people and discussing big problems

讲述者: 讨论这些话题的最佳方式是什么？因为你们有大型的公开会议，有小型的仅限受邀者参加的活动，有双边会谈，有各种各样的形式。你认为会见人们和讨论重大问题的最有效方式是什么？

Børge Brende: all the above I I think it's not either or we have to combine it a big public session with the presidents and also key fortune 50 cos uh increases uh the global attention it can also be a good input to smaller meetings where the same people can meet and discuss and there is then also the so-called Chattam House uh based uh meetings where uh you cannot use what is said there uh publicly that also are pretty successful and then you have bilateral meetings where people meet uh in Davos and they can discuss border conflicts they can discuss uh challenges between uh nations or companies. So I think the whole ecosystem uh is also based on an understanding that uh in Davos you come with a mindset to find solutions not to just articulate what um what what you disagree on.

讲述者: 以上所有方式都很重要。我认为这不是非此即彼的选择，我们必须将它们结合起来。有总统和重要的财富50强公司首席执行官参加的大型公开会议，可以提升全球的关注度，也可以为同样这些人可以会面讨论的小型会议提供有益的输入。还有所谓的基于“查塔姆宫规则”（Chatham House Rule：与会者可以自由使用获得的信息，但不得透露发言者的身份或所属机构）的会议，在这里你不能公开使用会议上的言论，这些会议也相当成功。然后是双边会谈，人们在达沃斯会面，他们可以讨论边界冲突，讨论国家或公司之间的挑战。所以我认为整个生态系统也是基于一种理解，即你来到达沃斯是为了寻找解决方案，而不仅仅是阐述你不同意的观点。

Nicolai Tangen: You get together the so-called global elite who are the who are the really important people in the world today.

讲述者: 你们聚集了所谓的“全球精英”。当今世界，谁是真正重要的人物？

Børge Brende: So uh we say that we bring together uh leaders from government and leaders uh from the private sector and also leaders from universities, science, um labor unions, uh also civil society and together uh they form a unique multi- stakeholder blend where I think we can uh then uh achieve things together and we've seen that um In the past, for example, the whole notion of finding traffic rules uh when it comes to the new technologies that the humans should be on top of the algorithms and not the algorithms uh of the humans uh shouldn't be controversial. These are things that we are able to discuss in Davos, but we're not able to finalize of course these kind of rules. That's for um other bodies uh to do. But the strength of a multistakeholder meeting like this is that um we can bring uh players together that uh it is necessary to bring together to see any kind of progress.

讲述者: 我们说我们汇集了来自政府的领导人、私营部门的领导人，以及来自大学、科学界、工会、公民社会的领导人。他们共同构成了一个独特的多方利益相关者组合，我认为通过这个组合我们可以共同取得成就。我们过去已经看到了这一点，例如，在为新技术寻找交通规则方面，人类应该驾驭算法，而不是算法驾驭人类，这不应该有争议。这些是我们能够在达沃斯讨论的事情，但我们当然无法最终确定这类规则。那是其他机构的职责。但像这样的多方利益相关者会议的力量在于，我们可以将那些必须聚集在一起才能看到任何进展的参与者汇集起来。

Nicolai Tangen: This group which you called the multistakeholder uh group uh how how has that changed over the last 10 years? What what type of people are uh coming in and who are going out?

讲述者: 你称之为多方利益相关者群体的这个团体，在过去十年里有何变化？什么类型的人正在加入，谁又在离开？

Børge Brende: So that's a good question. um you know that uh in the companies they we have seen a tendency of uh cos lasting shorter than in the past three four years and then some companies just change the uh co we also know that being in power today is tough being in government there is anti-inccubent factor for those countries at least that do have uh these kind of elections so I think we in the past could see some people come for decades. Um that's less frequent now at least uh from Europe and North America. We see uh that um the name tags are changing much more frequently.

讲述者: 这是个好问题。你知道，在公司里，我们看到首席执行官的任期比过去更短，通常是三到四年，然后一些公司就更换了首席执行官。我们也知道，今天在政府任职很艰难，对于那些有选举制度的国家来说，存在着一种反现任的因素。所以我想，过去我们可能会看到一些人来参加几十年，但现在这种情况越来越少，至少在欧洲和北美是这样。我们看到名牌上的名字更换得更加频繁。

Nicolai Tangen: What are the implications?

讲述者: 这意味着什么？

Børge Brende: I I I think it's also a sign of um uh shortterm thinking uh in many companies and uh in many countries. It takes time uh to um really be successful in implementing a strategy. So if you're elected uh in a country, you have to really work hard the first year to implement the reforms and hopefully you will see the positive results um four years later is when the elections are there. But you know some reforms you can only see the result of in a in a decade's uh perspective. Um and I think the same uh are in companies. some companies are more long-term and not only focused on the last quarter's results, but I think there is a tendency uh for that. But with the new technologies with all the challenges we're faced with I I think one um also should not forget that um we should also acknowledge the importance of being u medium long-term uh in your perspective and that should also be uh rewarded.

讲述者: 我认为这也是许多公司和国家短期思维的一个标志。要成功实施一项战略是需要时间的。所以如果你在一个国家当选，你必须在第一年努力工作来推行改革，并希望四年后选举到来时能看到积极的结果。但你知道，有些改革的结果可能需要十年的时间才能看到。我认为公司也是如此。一些公司更具长远眼光，不仅仅关注上个季度的业绩，但我认为存在着这种趋势。但随着新技术的出现和我们面临的所有挑战，我认为我们也不应忘记，我们应该承认保持中长期视角的重要性，并且这种视角也应该得到回报。

Nicolai Tangen: Is it more difficult to build trust in a world where people are changing uh more frequently?

讲述者: 在人员变动更频繁的世界里，建立信任是否更加困难？

Børge Brende: So um it comes with its challenges but we're also been better at uh including um seuitees from companies not only the CEO and the chairperson but also other uh people in the leadership of companies and the same with countries. So we also know invite key opposition leaders from uh some countries. So overall, I think we're still able to have uh a great uh crowd uh in and at our meetings. Uh we are for example now uh going to go to TNEN China for summer doubles in um four weeks and the sign up there is incredible. We haven't seen this kind of numbers in a long time. So I think there is a lot of interest to also decipher what is really happening to connect the dots. So before people came also um for the initiatives and the partnerships I think that still is important but the world has become so complex that we're seeing a lot of leaders coming and say we really just need to meet to understand um what what are the possible uh prospects uh for the future? What are the scenarios out there and more focus on resilience? how to build capacity to handle the unknowns.

讲述者: 这确实带来了一些挑战，但我们也在更好地吸纳公司的高管团队，不仅仅是首席执行官和董事长，还有公司领导层中的其他人员。国家也是如此，我们现在也邀请一些国家的主要反对党领袖。所以总的来说，我认为我们仍然能够在我们的会议上聚集起一个出色的群体。例如，我们现在四周后要去中国天津参加夏季达沃斯论坛，报名情况非常踊跃。我们已经很久没有看到这样的数字了。所以我认为人们有很大的兴趣去解读到底发生了什么，去连接各种信息点。所以以前人们来也是为了参与各种倡议和伙伴关系，我认为这仍然很重要，但世界已经变得如此复杂，我们看到很多领导人来说，我们真的需要见面来理解未来的可能前景是什么？有哪些可能的情景，并且更加关注韧性？如何建立应对未知情况的能力。

Nicolai Tangen: On a more um personal level, what's the best way to build relationships and trust because that's kind of what you do for a living, right?

讲述者: 在更个人的层面上，建立关系和信任的最佳方式是什么？因为这可以说是你的谋生之道，对吧？

Børge Brende: I think that um you have to be an honest broker. Uh you have to not um then overpromise. uh you should all always um uh overd deliver uh instead of um of of the opposite. Uh and you have we are a impartial organization. So we are very clear that we work as closely with the India as we do with the US, Brazil, China and we we are like a facilitator and a platform. We're not an organization that is an activist organization saying that uh we are working for this and this the the far furthest we go is to say that we're facilitators of progress. I think that is building trust and um and over time they do see that they get uh positive results of engaging with the world economic firm.

讲述者: 我认为你必须成为一个诚实的中间人。你不能过度承诺。你应该总是超额交付，而不是相反。我们是一个公正的组织，所以我们非常清楚，我们与印度、巴西、中国的合作与我们同美国的合作一样紧密，我们就像一个促进者和一个平台。我们不是一个激进的组织，说我们为这个或那个而工作。我们能说的最远的话就是我们是进步的促进者。我认为这能建立信任，随着时间的推移，他们确实看到与世界经济论坛的接触能带来积极的结果。

Nicolai Tangen: What's the key to handling powerful people with big eos?

讲述者: 与那些有强大自尊心的有权势人物打交道的关键是什么？

Børge Brende: I I I think it's uh to have a good agenda that they feel that is worth their time and um be very serious about that. Hardworking and um we we we don't uh give in to uh all the demands for uh from all uh these um leaders. We are very open and transparent about what we can uh deliver and over time I I think that has been our strength and and leaders do come back and and that's a it's a big compliment in Davos this year we had more than 60 head of states and governments we had 70 out of 100 fortune 100 cos and this is not done overnight it's hard work um over years and and building that kind of trust

讲述者: 我认为关键是要有一个好的议程，让他们觉得值得花时间参与，并对此非常认真。努力工作，而且我们不会屈服于所有这些领导人的所有要求。我们对于我们能提供什么非常开放和透明，随着时间的推移，我认为这已成为我们的优势，领导人们也确实会回来。这是一个巨大的赞美。今年在达沃斯，我们有超过60位国家元首和政府首脑，财富100强公司中有70位首席执行官出席。这不是一蹴而就的，这是多年来辛勤工作和建立信任的结果。

Nicolai Tangen: what's the most difficult diplomatic situation you've been in?

讲述者: 你经历过的最困难的外交局面是什么？

Børge Brende: Wow. Um, it was hard when uh I was foreign minister in Norway and we negotiated the the the peace agreement in Colombia between the FAR gerilla and President Sanchez, especially uh because it was an armed conflict that had with President Santos. It was um hard because this um kind of internal armed conflict had gone on uh for 50 years. It was also a bit of a challenge when I was given the task to repair and rebuild the diplomatic relations between China and Norway. something that took uh a few years because there was uh no trust and you have to stick of course to your national values and and your integrity but at the same time um it is in a country's interest uh two countries interest to be able to to work together.

讲述者: 哇。嗯，当我担任挪威外交部长时，我们正在哥伦比亚协商法克游击队与桑托斯总统之间的和平协议，那段经历非常艰难，特别是因为这是一场已经持续了50年的内部武装冲突。当我接到修复和重建中挪外交关系的任务时，也颇具挑战。这件事花了好几年时间，因为双方之间毫无信任。你当然必须坚守你的国家价值观和你的正直，但同时，能够合作也符合两个国家的利益。

批评与反思

Nicolai Tangen: Okay. Uh I need to ask some uh uh slightly difficult questions too. So uh lots of private jets uh at Davos uh you know kind of a pretty pretty big contrast to the climate focus you have just how do you how do you look at these things?

讲述者: 好的，我需要问一些稍微尖锐的问题。达沃斯有很多私人飞机，这与你们关注气候问题的形象形成了相当大的反差。你如何看待这些事情？

Børge Brende: So um it is true that a lot of um also governmental leaders do come uh with their presidential or official planes. you know, when we have had Trump twice uh in Davos, he he does land um with Air Force One.

讲述者: 的确，很多政府领导人也是乘坐他们的总统专机或官方飞机来的。你知道，特朗普两次来达沃斯，他都是乘空军一号降落的。

Nicolai Tangen: He's got a new plane now.

讲述者: 他现在有新飞机了。

Børge Brende: Yeah. Yeah. I I saw that. Uh so uh but it's still uh would be uh counted. And it's also true that some of the big cos of the world uh that run companies that have a bigger turnover than many countries, they also come with their official planes. I think that is uh de facto uh a reality and is not going to change um with Davos. So I'm I'm um I'm just registering this and um it's it's a fact.

讲述者: 是的，是的，我看到了。但它仍然会被计算在内。同样，世界上一些大型公司的首席执行官，他们管理的公司营业额超过许多国家，他们也是乘坐官方飞机来的。我认为这是一个客观现实，不会因为达沃斯而改变。所以我只是记录下这个事实，它就是一个事实。

Nicolai Tangen: What about this being very exclusive and elitist in a in a world where we perhaps need more transparency and openness?

讲述者: 在一个或许需要更多透明度和开放性的世界里，这种高度排外和精英主义的做法又如何解释呢？

Børge Brende: I think we're very transparent. I think we're very open. Uh I think the World Economic Forum has like 40 million followers in social media and we put out a lot of things uh there. Uh I was indirectly addressing this earlier on because you used the word elite but I didn't really want to go into a discussion about it. But you know when you have the head of states and governments from countries, you have the key cos from the key companies, you have the leaders, directors from the key Ivy League uh institutions of the world, you can say these are the true leaders in the world that can if they come together make a positive uh influence. You can also call them the elite. I think they're all very uh at least most of them very hardworking people that have come to these positions and I think it's good to bring them uh together. Some of our meetings are open uh to the public. Some meetings uh as I also mentioned are closed meetings because if you discuss for example between Armenia and Aabajan uh the border uh conflict that cannot be for open camera if you want to have progress when we have had discussions among Palestinians and Israelis in Davos when we have had discussions also between Americans and and Chinese of course these should be uh closed meetings uh to make sure that we make prog progress and if there are things to announce then it will be announced in the press conference.

讲述者: 我认为我们非常透明，非常开放。世界经济论坛在社交媒体上大约有四千万粉丝，我们在上面发布了很多东西。我之前间接提到了这一点，因为你用了“精英”这个词，但我并不想就此展开讨论。但你知道，当你拥有各国的国家元首和政府首脑，拥有关键公司的关键首席执行官，拥有世界顶尖常春藤盟校的领导者和主任时，你可以说这些人是世界上真正的领导者，如果他们能聚集在一起，就能产生积极的影响。你也可以称他们为精英。我认为他们至少大多数都是非常勤奋的人，是通过努力才达到这些职位的，我认为将他们聚集在一起是件好事。我们的一些会议是向公众开放的。一些会议，正如我提到的，是闭门会议，因为如果你讨论例如亚美尼亚和阿塞拜疆之间的边界冲突，如果你想取得进展，那就不可能在公开的镜头前进行。当我们让巴勒斯坦人和以色列人在达沃斯进行讨论时，当我们让美国人和中国人进行讨论时，这些当然应该是闭门会议，以确保我们取得进展。如果有任何事情要宣布，那么就会在新闻发布会上宣布。

领导力、文化与未来展望

Nicolai Tangen: Now your founder Klaus Schwab recently stepped down um and I appreciate this is a very sensitive issue but what can you tell us about uh about this?

讲述者: 你们的创始人克劳斯·施瓦布（Klaus Schwab）最近卸任了。我理解这是一个非常敏感的问题，但关于此事你能告诉我们什么？

Børge Brende: So uh um our founder Klaus Shra has stepped down after 55 uh years. uh he is our founder and I work with him uh closely uh for the last uh 7 and a half uh years. Um he is now 87 years old and he said that he chose not to step down uh due to to age.

讲述者: 我们的创始人克劳斯·施瓦布在55年后卸任了。他是我们的创始人，在过去七年半里，我与他紧密合作。他现在已经87岁了，他说他选择卸任并非因为年龄。

Nicolai Tangen: That was his his statement. And what is your statement?

讲述者: 这是他的声明。你的声明是什么？

Børge Brende: Yeah, the same.

讲述者: 一样。

Nicolai Tangen: Okay. How will you change the leadership culture going forward?

讲述者: 好的。未来你将如何改变领导文化？

Børge Brende: So uh the human capital of the world economic forum is the real capital. uh as I mentioned we have thousand uh I have thousand colleagues uh at um web and uh these are the people that uh also contribute every day uh to the mission of the forum to improve the state of the world or to to facilitate uh progress but you know to motivate people uh that is of this kind of caliber that we uh recruit uh you have to build strong teams it's all about motivation. If you're motivated, you get so much done and if you feel what you're doing is also important, you're even more motivated. So that will um be uh and is my big task. making sure that we have the best talent in the world that you know one person can go very fast but if you want to go far we have to go all together and the world economic forum should also uh be a great place uh to work have a great workplace culture that is my goal

讲述者: 世界经济论坛的人力资本是其真正的资本。如我所说，我有一千名同事在论坛工作，正是这些人每天为论坛的使命——改善世界状况或促进进步——做出贡献。但你知道，要激励我们招聘的这种高素质人才，你必须建立强大的团队。一切都关乎激励。如果你有动力，你能完成很多事情；如果你觉得你所做的事情也很重要，你会更有动力。所以，这将是我的重大任务。确保我们拥有世界上最优秀的人才。你知道，一个人可以走得很快，但如果我们想走得远，我们必须一起走。世界经济论坛也应该是一个工作的好地方，拥有良好的工作场所文化，这是我的目标。

Nicolai Tangen: what have you brought from uh a life in politics you were head of the uh the Red Cross uh and so on what what leadership ideals have you brought into the organization You know that's u understanding also uh how governments work and also uh the private sector and how you can then by matching them uh

讲述者: 你从政界、红十字会负责人等经历中，为这个组织带来了哪些领导理念？

Børge Brende: making uh progress is something that you learn uh if you work both in private sector and in uh in government. So I'm spending a lot of my time on trying to be creative uh in new ways of breaking impulses because there are so many impulses. So for example, a few years ago during COP uh 26 in Glasgow, we got this uh idea of having the leading global companies using their purchasing power to green their supply chain saying that for example Apple says that 25% of their aluminium needs to be green. If you have companies uh doing this, it sets really a strong example. It's their right because they're privately owned companies. So they can do this and that creates also a big demand. We have for example for years now had a coalition of 100 companies uh going further than the national legislation on fighting corruption, opening up for transparency. we are losing trillions of US dollars every year in corruption uh that should have been invested differently. These are the areas where I think with my background I hopefully can combine um political insights insights uh from multi-ateral organizations also with uh the private sector that is unique at the forum because we're public private

讲述者: 理解政府如何运作，也理解私营部门如何运作，以及如何通过将它们匹配起来取得进展，这是你在私营部门和政府部门都工作过才能学到的东西。所以我花很多时间尝试用创新的方式来打破僵局，因为僵局太多了。例如，几年前在格拉斯哥举行的第26届联合国气候变化大会（COP26）期间，我们提出了一个想法，让全球领先的公司利用其购买力来绿化其供应链。比如说，苹果公司宣布其25%的铝材必须是绿色的。如果你有公司这样做，它就树立了一个非常强有力的榜样。这是他们的权利，因为他们是私营公司。所以他们可以这样做，这也创造了巨大的需求。例如，多年来我们有一个由100家公司组成的联盟，在反腐败和增加透明度方面，他们的做法超出了国家立法的要求。我们每年因腐败损失数万亿美元，这些钱本应投资于其他地方。在这些领域，我希望凭借我的背景，能将政治洞察力、多边组织的洞察力与论坛独特的公私合作模式结合起来。

Nicolai Tangen: but you still talk about uh climate initiatives and so on. Um now in some parts of the world they talk less about it. What um what is your view on on the on the kind of Uturn or backlash we've seen against uh against ESG and and and climate initiatives.

讲述者: 你仍然在谈论气候倡议等等。但在世界某些地方，人们谈论得少了。你对我们所看到的针对ESG（环境、社会和公司治理）和气候倡议的逆转或强烈反对有何看法？

Børge Brende: So um politics maybe have changed but science hasn't. But it is true that uh when you discuss climate you also have to bring in energy. It's like a triangle. There's still like 700 million people on our planet that don't even have access to electricity that is needed uh to support progress and development and we need to decouple uh growth in energy and CO2 emissions uh in the future but at the same time we also have to do it in a way that we don't compromise on energy security. We have seen in Europe uh how bad an idea it was to base uh almost half of our natural gas um from Russia. Diversification is also important. So I think it's it's not simplistic. changing the energy um demand and changing the way uh we also um support our development with different energy uh sources is the most complex transition uh we've been through uh probably for decades and uh we're trying to show the complexity but still what you can do with new technologies like looking at the gen AI I now can accelerate for example fusion uh nuclear uh that we thought was like maybe going to be available in three or four decades commercially. Maybe we can do it in a decade. That means a lot. Look at the big developments we have had in China on uh renewables. China is the first electrostate um a country that is basing a lot of their energy now on electricity uh sourced from uh renewables but of course it has to be balanced they balance it with uh then coal LG and also uh nuclear so we're trying to be balanced but still facilitating progress and we still believe that the cost of inaction far exceeds the cost of action

讲述者: 政治风向或许已经改变，但科学没有。但确实，当你讨论气候问题时，你也必须把能源问题带进来。这就像一个三角形。我们星球上仍有大约7亿人甚至无法用上电力，而电力是支持进步和发展所必需的。未来我们需要将能源增长与二氧化碳排放增长脱钩，但同时我们必须以不损害能源安全的方式进行。我们在欧洲已经看到了将近一半的天然气供应依赖于俄罗斯是多么糟糕的主意。多元化也很重要。所以我认为这并不简单。改变能源需求和我们用不同能源支持发展的方式，可能是几十年来我们经历过的最复杂的转型。我们试图展示其复杂性，但仍然展示了新技术能做什么，比如看看现在的生成式人工智能，现在可以加速例如核聚变的发展，我们曾认为它可能需要三四十年才能商业化。也许我们可以在十年内实现它。那意义重大。看看中国在可再生能源方面取得的巨大发展。中国是第一个电能国家，一个将其大量能源基础建立在来自可再生能源的电力上的国家。但当然，这必须是平衡的，他们用煤炭、液化天然气和核能来平衡。所以我们试图保持平衡，但仍然促进进步，我们仍然相信，不作为的代价远远超过行动的代价。

人工智能的革命性影响

Nicolai Tangen: We briefly touched on on AI a couple of times um and it's just totally revolutionary in the way that we uh in many of the things we do in our company. Just how do you think it will shape the future of global business?

讲述者: 我们几次简要地谈到了人工智能。它在我们公司的许多工作中都具有完全的革命性。你认为它将如何塑造全球商业的未来？

Børge Brende: It's already changing um things uh very fundamentally. I thought we were going to be in like the hardware phase for a bit longer where you needed like trillions of US dollars investing in the uh new language models. But I think the deepseek uh experience from China suddenly this company that no one had heard about had then a landish model that was developed for maybe one/ird one quarter of what others had done shows that we're maybe a little bit closer to the software phase where we can do applications and with that I I think we're just just going to see like uh thousand flowers blossom uh in the energy field uh and AI field uh sorry uh in the years uh to come and where I expecting big big changes is in medicine the synthetic biology there's going to be so many breakthroughs but also of course there are jobs uh that are today done by humans back offices and all that that will be replaced by uh gen AI but that is also the history that you then move higher up in the value chain like if you increase productivity ity you can also increase prosperity but it also creates some fair of course fair for jobs and fairs about the future but like look here in Switzerland when I'm now based is uh 95% of the population worked in the agriculture sector 100 years ago and now is like 2% and they produce much more food than back then of 2% of the population and um you could ask where did all these people go

讲述者: 它已经在非常根本地改变着事物。我原以为我们会在硬件阶段停留更长一段时间，需要数万亿美元投资于新的语言模型。但我认为，来自中国的DeepSeek（深求）的经验，这家没人听说过的公司突然拥有了一个语言模型，其开发成本可能是其他公司的三分之一或四分之一，这表明我们可能离软件应用阶段更近了。随之而来，我认为我们将在未来几年看到能源领域和人工智能领域百花齐放。我预计在医学领域将发生巨大变化，合成生物学将有如此多的突破。但当然，今天由人类完成的工作，比如后台办公室和所有那些，都将被生成式人工智能所取代。但这也是历史的规律，你随后会向价值链的上游移动。就像如果你提高了生产力，你也可以增加繁荣。但它也确实造成了一些恐惧，对工作的恐惧和对未来的恐惧。但看看我现在所在的瑞士，100年前95%的人口在农业部门工作，现在只有大约2%，而这2%的人口生产的食物比当时多得多。你可能会问，所有那些人都去哪了？

Nicolai Tangen: yes they went up in the value chain created prosperity that's the future and that's working at the World Economic Forum for example

讲述者: 是的，他们向价值链的上游移动，创造了繁荣。这就是未来，例如在世界经济论坛工作。

Børge Brende: for example not a bad place

讲述者: 比如，这不是一个坏地方。

Nicolai Tangen: um how do you think um how do you think AI will change the geopolitical power balance

讲述者: 你认为人工智能将如何改变地缘政治力量的平衡？

Børge Brende: so uh the competition is fierce um and I think the two big nations China and the US uh also knows or know that the country that's on top of the new technologies will probably emerge as the most powerful nation also of this century. So that competition is going to continue. But I think there's also other players that will come in and things are very hard to predict. If you look at for example the list of the 10 companies in the world with the highest market cap today, many of them did not exist two or three decades ago. So it doesn't mean uh that the largest companies uh in a few decades even are started yet and they don't need to come from the big um in in one of the big players uh country but they do have things that of course uh work in their interest. For example, access to data. Data is the new oxygen in this economy. If you're big a big home market and access to data you have uh comparative um advantage if you have a lot of capital uh interested in investing if you have great universities if you have great R&D if you have great engineers well educated people so um I think the competition related to the new technologies will be more important than uh some of the more military defense parts of the competition.

讲述者: 竞争非常激烈。我认为中国和美国这两个大国也知道，掌握新技术的国家很可能成为本世纪最强大的国家。所以这场竞争将会继续。但我认为也会有其他参与者加入，而且事情很难预测。如果你看看今天世界上市值（Market Capitalization：指一家上市公司发行股数乘以股价所得出的价值）最高的十家公司的名单，其中许多在二三十年前并不存在。所以这并不意味着几十年后最大的公司现在就已经创立了。它们也不一定来自那些大国。但这些大国确实拥有一些对它们有利的因素。例如，获取数据的能力。数据是这个经济体中的新氧气。如果你有一个庞大的国内市场和获取数据的能力，你就有比较优势。如果你有大量愿意投资的资本，如果你有顶尖的大学，如果你有出色的研发能力，如果你有受过良好教育的优秀工程师。所以我认为，与新技术相关的竞争将比一些更偏向军事防御方面的竞争更为重要。

Nicolai Tangen: Do you think AI will um increase global inequality?

讲述者: 你认为人工智能会加剧全球不平等吗？

Børge Brende: I'm not so sure.

讲述者: 我不那么确定。

Nicolai Tangen: Um like the because because in theory in theory it should it should decrease it.

讲述者: 嗯，因为理论上它应该会减少不平等。

Børge Brende: But don't you need a certain level of education, energy and so on to really utilize it and innovation and entrepreneurship and also a young population uh that is very techsavvy. Um so as I mentioned like in the platform economy the winner took it all. We have this uh big uh almost private superpowers uh that are very dominating. But I think also you will see a lot of startups and a lot of opportunities uh also in emerging economies. Look at for example India in this 1.4 four billion people have no um um electronic digital ID. Um there is like 130 uh unicorns uh in China and it is like 10 or something adding almost um on a quarterly uh basis. we see growth there is mainly related to services and digital uh trade. So I think there is the jury is out uh if you need the huge trillion dollars u of investments. There will be uh advantages for those that have a lot of capital and where you want to allocate your capital. But at the same time we know that a lot of good ideas have been developed in garages and other places um in the past. Uh so this open up also huge opportunities for the countries with a lot of young people. Look at Nigeria. Uh look at Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam. These very fast growing economies that are emerging economists.

讲述者: 但难道你不需要一定水平的教育、能源等才能真正利用它吗？还有创新和企业家精神，以及非常精通科技的年轻人口。正如我提到的，在平台经济中，赢者通吃。我们有这些几乎是私人超级大国的庞大实体，它们占据主导地位。但我认为，你也会在新兴经济体中看到很多初创企业和很多机会。看看印度，这个拥有14亿人口的国家，现在人人都有电子数字身份。中国大约有130家独角兽公司（Unicorns：指估值超过10亿美元的未上市初创公司），而且几乎每个季度都会增加10家左右。我们看到那里的增长主要与服务和数字贸易有关。所以我认为，是否需要数万亿美元的巨额投资，目前尚无定论。对于那些拥有大量资本并决定将资本投向何处的人来说，会有优势。但同时我们知道，过去很多好点子都是在车库和其他地方诞生的。所以，这也为那些拥有大量年轻人口的国家开启了巨大的机遇。看看尼日利亚、印度尼西亚、印度、孟加ла国、越南。这些都是非常快速增长的新兴经济体。

个人感悟与给年轻人的建议

Nicolai Tangen: Okay, moving on to um um a bit more uh personal uh questions. What part of your job do you enjoy the most? Where are you really in the flow?

讲述者: 好的，接下来问一些更个人的问题。你最享受工作的哪个部分？在什么时候你感觉自己真正进入了“心流”状态？

Børge Brende: When I can feel that we can contribute to finding either solutions or make progress when we could for example have Israeli cos meeting with six 50 Palestinian cos and they said that we can work uh together. uh when we know thinking about putting together a delegation of cos that want to go to Damascus and invest uh in a wartorrn uh Syria. Uh I think that uh is great. I also felt that the best moment for me and that was when I went to a small meeting between Americans and also Chinese that looked at who can we even in this polarized world uh find ways of working uh together. That's that's the part of the job uh I feel most meaningful.

讲述者: 当我能感觉到我们可以为找到解决方案或取得进展做出贡献时。例如，当我们能让以色列公司与50家巴勒斯坦公司会面，他们说我们可以一起工作时。当我们现在考虑组织一个由希望前往大马士革投资饱受战乱的叙利亚的公司组成的代表团时。我认为那很棒。我也觉得对我来说最好的时刻是，当我参加一个美国人和中国人之间的小型会议，探讨即使在这个两极分化的世界里，我们如何能找到合作的方式。那是我觉得工作中最有意义的部分。

Nicolai Tangen: Now um as we know uh no prophet is honored in his own country and uh you know you were the foreign minister but it's really after you you went global that you become uh you know a rockstar and a heavyweight. Why why do you think that is?

讲述者: 我们知道，没有先知在自己的家乡受到尊敬。你曾是外交部长，但真正让你成为全球瞩目的“摇滚明星”和重量级人物，是在你走向全球之后。你认为这是为什么？

Børge Brende: I'm not so sure uh if I'm in that uh lacker category. I don't feel um like that. But um I'm enjoying my job here at the World Economic Forum. I also enjoyed every day um almost at least uh in Norwegian politics for almost 30 years too and I learned so much uh through that and um you know I'm very fond of my home country I I think that Norway is one of the best uh governed uh and run countries uh in the world and if you look at the Nordic countries together uh they're like 10th largest economy in the world and they have been able to have uh substantial economic growth but at the same time they're not uh doing so badly when it comes to addressing inequalities too. So it's it's my view is that equal opportunities is incredibly important for a success of a country. But of course if you work hard you cannot end up with the same results as those that don't work so hard. But equal opportunities meaning that you have access to good schools, have a good educational system that every young talent can succeed. I think that is something that is extremely close to my heart.

讲述者: 我不确定我是否属于那个幸运的类别。我没有那样的感觉。但我很享受在世界经济论坛的工作。我也很享受在挪威政界近30年的几乎每一天，我从中学会了很多。你知道，我非常热爱我的祖国。我认为挪威是世界上治理和管理得最好的国家之一。如果你把北欧国家放在一起看，它们是世界第十大经济体，它们在实现可观经济增长的同时，在解决不平等等问题上也做得不差。所以我认为，机会均等对于一个国家的成功至关重要。当然，如果你努力工作，你不可能和那些不那么努力的人得到相同的结果。但机会均等意味着你有机会上好学校，拥有一个好的教育体系，让每个年轻的人才都能成功。我认为这是我极为珍视的事情。

Nicolai Tangen: How do you relax? How do you chill?

讲述者: 你如何放松？如何放空自己？

Børge Brende: In the mountains maybe uh in Norway. I I I like it in the mountains. I also like a Saturday morning with no speeches, no travel, just uh to have a cup of coffee and sit and read Financial Times the Saturday morning. I'm like I feel very privileged, very very privileged and I can use one and a half hour uh on that. So I'm I'm easily satisfied in in in in that respect.

讲述者: 也许是在挪威的山里。我喜欢在山里。我也喜欢一个没有演讲、没有旅行的周六早晨，只是喝杯咖啡，坐下来读《金融时报》的周六版。我感觉非常荣幸，非常非常荣幸，我可以花一个半小时做这件事。所以在这方面我很容易满足。

Nicolai Tangen: What else do you read?

讲述者: 你还读些什么？

Børge Brende: So I read uh of course all the relevant papers. Uh I read the So when you what is that?

讲述者: 我当然会读所有相关的报纸。我读……

Nicolai Tangen: What is all relevant papers? What is that?

讲述者: 那是什么？所有相关的报纸是什么？

Børge Brende: No. So I read Financial Times. I read Wall Street Journal. I read uh New York Times. I read also Washington Post. Of course not every page every day but these are the papers that I read. I read a few Norwegian papers uh too. Uh, of course I need to f follow a bit what is happening uh at home. Uh, and uh then I uh also uh try to uh read uh books mainly on things that I'm not so knowledgeable about for example the new technologies. I I forced myself to read a lot of books about AI and technology even if I do still prefer to read books about geopolitics and geoeconomy. But I'm I do understand that in this role I I can I need to become more techsavvy.

讲述者: 不，我读《金融时报》，读《华尔街日报》，读《纽约时报》，也读《华盛顿邮报》。当然不是每天每一页都读，但这些是我会读的报纸。我也会读几份挪威的报纸，当然我需要了解一下国内发生的事情。然后我也会尝试读书，主要读那些我不太了解的领域，比如新技术。我强迫自己读了很多关于人工智能和科技的书，尽管我仍然更喜欢读关于地缘政治和地缘经济的书。但我确实明白，在这个职位上，我需要变得更懂科技。

Nicolai Tangen: What are you the most grateful for in life?

讲述者: 你生命中最感激的是什么？

Børge Brende: that I have um grown up in a country uh where you could uh pursue uh your uh interests and uh that I have had the chance to also contribute through public life for many uh years and also seeing my kids growing up uh in a country where there is uh peace and they have had access uh to good education.

讲述者: 我在一个可以追求自己兴趣的国家长大，并且有机会通过公共生活多年做出贡献，也看到我的孩子们在一个和平的国家长大，他们获得了良好的教育。

Nicolai Tangen: And um lastly, what is your advice to young people?

讲述者: 最后，你对年轻人有什么建议？

Børge Brende: Work hard. Uh be serious, but not think about always if it's greener on the other side of the fence. You know, I have not applied for jobs in my life. I I things I worked I think I worked very hard but the opportunities do come if you just do well in what you're doing and try to work on something that you're passionate about and don't stress about the career. The less you stress about your career uh and more committed you are to what you're doing uh then uh things have a tendency of solving itself. That's what I trying to tell also to all the very ambitious uh young people at the World Economic Forum.

讲述者: 努力工作。认真对待，但不要总想着邻家的草地是否更绿。你知道，我一生中从未申请过工作。我认为我工作非常努力，但只要你在自己所做的事情上做得好，机会自然会来。试着做你充满热情的事情，不要为事业而焦虑。你越不为事业焦虑，越投入于你正在做的事情，事情就越有自行解决的倾向。这也是我试图告诉世界经济论坛所有那些雄心勃勃的年轻人的话。

Nicolai Tangen: Well, Booger, you for sure have been very committed to what you uh to what you do and a big congratulations with everything you uh you have achieved. Big thanks for being with us.

讲述者: 嗯，Børge，你对你所做的事情确实非常投入，并为你所取得的一切成就表示热烈祝贺。非常感谢你和我们在一起。

Børge Brende: Thank you, Nikolai. Thank you for inviting me to your podcast. It's a big honor.

讲述者: 谢谢你，Nikolai。感谢你邀请我上你的播客。这是一个巨大的荣誉。

Nicolai Tangen: Thank you.

讲述者: 谢谢。