Introduction

Interviewer: Anatoli is the CEO of a little crypto project known as Solana, one of the fastest growing blockchains in the world. As CEO of Solana Labs, he's driving web 3 innovation. BlackRock, the world's largest asset manager, expanded its $1.7 billion tokenized money market fund to Solana. Why don't we all switch to Solana? I mean, Solana sounds like it's actually commercial and the other guys sound like they're antique. Everybody in the world should be your customer. Crypto will eventually win. It's inevitable. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Solana co-founder Anatoly Yakovenko.

采访者: 阿纳托利是一个名为 Solana 的小型加密项目的首席执行官，它是世界上增长最快的区块链之一。作为 Solana Labs 的首席执行官，他正在推动 Web3 的创新。全球最大的资产管理公司贝莱德（BlackRock）已将其17亿美元的代币化货币市场基金扩展到了 Solana 上。我们为什么不都转向 Solana 呢？我的意思是，Solana 听起来是真正商业化的，而其他的项目听起来像是古董。世界上的每一个人都应该是你的客户。加密货币最终会胜利，这是不可避免的。女士们，先生们，请欢迎 Solana 联合创始人阿纳托利·雅科文科。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Oh man, thanks for having me. Thank you. Welcome.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 哦，天哪，谢谢你们邀请我。谢谢。欢迎。

The Impact of Regulation on Crypto

Interviewer: How much of a difference has David Sachs made in the first six months as crypto czar for your industry?

采访者: 在担任您所在行业的“加密沙皇”的头六个月里，大卫·萨克斯（David Sachs）带来了多大的改变？

Anatoly Yakovenko: Oh, it's been incredible. I mean, I think it's night and day. I don't know if the industry would have survived another four years of the Gensler regime. The Genius Act, I think, is going to unlock, you know, people estimate 1 to 10 trillion dollars worth of stablecoins (稳定币：一种价值与法定货币或商品等“稳定”资产挂钩的加密货币) that are going to be on public permissionless chains. So if you kind of look at those charts of who owns treasuries, it's China, Japan, etc., countries. Right now I think Tether is somewhere around number five. I think within 5 years, the internet is going to be the largest holder of US treasuries.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 哦，那真是不可思议。我的意思是，我认为这简直是天壤之别。我不知道这个行业是否还能在根斯勒（Gensler）的监管体制下再撑四年。《天才法案》（The Genius Act），我认为，将会释放巨大的潜力，人们估计将有价值1到10万亿美元的稳定币（Stablecoins：一种价值与法定货币或商品等“稳定”资产挂钩的加密货币）会出现在公共的、无需许可的区块链上。所以，如果你看看那些谁持有美国国债的图表，你会发现是中国、日本等国家。现在我认为泰达币（Tether）大约排在第五位。我认为在5年内，互联网将成为美国国债的最大持有者。

Anatoly Yakovenko: And at such a scale that I think, you know, I'm an engineer, I cannot honestly comprehend how that's going to change finance, but I think it'll be transformative.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 而且其规模之大，我认为，你知道，我是一名工程师，我老实说无法理解这将如何改变金融，但我认为这将是变革性的。

Interviewer: Upside, downside. I mean, are there concerns there as well with that huge impact in democratization or are you kind of a libertarian, let the chips fall where they may, so to speak?

采访者: 有利有弊。我的意思是，在这种民主化带来的巨大影响下，是否存在担忧，或者说你是一个自由意志主义者，主张顺其自然？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think it's a huge opportunity to really accelerate American innovation and spread American finance around the world. I think we actually have the best financial system in the world. It's the most trusted, the most robust, the best regulatory environment for what it's worth as well. But it was built after World War II before the internet. So, its APIs are kind of like a fax machine based. What crypto is allowing, I think, is this new technology stack built on top of the internet that's completely western aligned. It's for transparency. It's for capitalism, but now we can actually interface western US-based finance to the rest of the world. And I think America is going to benefit primarily from this.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我认为这是一个巨大的机会，可以真正加速美国的创新，并将美国的金融体系推广到全世界。我认为我们实际上拥有世界上最好的金融体系。它是最值得信赖、最稳健的，并且无论如何也拥有最好的监管环境。但它是在第二次世界大战后、互联网出现之前建立的。所以，它的应用程序接口（API）有点像基于传真机的。我认为，加密技术所允许的是一个建立在互联网之上的、完全与西方价值观一致的新技术堆栈。它是为了透明度，为了资本主义，但现在我们可以真正地将以美国为基础的西方金融与世界其他地区连接起来。而且我认为美国将主要从中受益。

Solana's Vision: The World's Execution Layer

Interviewer: When you were getting Solana off the ground, how much of it was a technical and architectural vision that you had versus maybe a set of trade-offs that you were trying to solve that ETH didn't fill or Bitcoin didn't fill and you said I'm just going to try and do this.

采访者: 当你创立 Solana 的时候，其中有多少是源于你的技术和架构愿景，又有多少是为了解决以太坊（ETH）或比特币（Bitcoin）未能解决的一系列权衡问题，然后你说“我就要尝试做这个”？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think, you know, I can't speak for all founders, but I think founders are driven by a kind of crazy vision. They have to be a little bit insane. So my insane vision is always this idea like, imagine finance 20 to 50 years from now. The science fiction version of finance. What I imagine is a single giant ledger, a single computer for every market in the world. That means it's available in Nairobi, New York, in London, in Singapore. And all of these things are synchronized at the roundtrip time of speed of light through fiber around the world or, you know, through Elon's satellites. That's 120 milliseconds. So a dollar can be in New York, in London, in Singapore, in Nairobi in 120 milliseconds. So velocity of money, velocity of assets are as fast as physics allow. This is what nerdpilled me on building this, like it's a physics problem. It's a massive finance problem. It's a really fun engineering low latency.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我想，你知道，我不能代表所有创始人，但我认为创始人们都是被一种疯狂的愿景所驱动的。他们必须有点疯狂。我的疯狂愿景一直是这样的想法：想象一下20到50年后的金融。科幻版的金融。我所想象的是一个单一的巨大账本，一个为世界上每个市场服务的单一计算机。这意味着它在内罗毕、纽约、伦敦、新加坡都可以使用。所有这些都通过全球的光纤，或者通过埃隆·马斯克的卫星，以光速的往返时间进行同步。那是120毫秒。所以一美元可以在120毫秒内从纽约到伦敦，到新加坡，再到内罗毕。因此，货币的流通速度、资产的流转速度都达到了物理允许的极限。这就是让我痴迷于构建这个项目的原因，它像一个物理问题，一个巨大的金融问题，也是一个非常有趣的低延迟工程挑战。

Anatoly Yakovenko: When I had my kind of Eureka moment and I did the back of the envelope calculation for design, I'm like, "Oh, this is a thousand times faster than ETH." And when I started talking to folks in the ETH community, they're focused on settlement. Settlement doesn't have these latency problems. You can do settlement in minutes and that's fine. So I always felt that, you know, Ethereum being world's settlement layer, Solana is the world's execution layer. So far so good. Execution is where all the money's made. So, I think we're on the right track. And, a fast execution engine can also do settlement. That's kind of a feature.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 当我灵光一闪，做了个粗略的设计计算时，我就想：“哦，这比以太坊快一千倍。”而当我开始和以太坊社区的人交流时，他们关注的是结算。结算没有这些延迟问题。你可以在几分钟内完成结算，这没问题。所以我一直觉得，以太坊是世界的结算层，而 Solana 是世界的执行层。到目前为止一切顺利。执行层是所有钱被赚取的地方。所以，我认为我们走在正确的轨道上。而且，一个快速的执行引擎也可以做结算，这算是一个附带功能。

The Challenge of Real-World Use Cases

Interviewer: You've been super critical about two projects. Memecoins, even though they do throw off, I think, some revenue for Solana, and also the idea of a crypto strategic reserve. What about those two projects tweak you a bit?

采访者: 你对两个项目一直持非常批评的态度。一个是Meme币（Memecoins：受网络迷因启发的加密货币），尽管我认为它们确实为 Solana 带来了一些收入；另一个是加密战略储备的想法。这两个项目在哪些方面让你感到不适？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think primarily we could not predict what's going to happen on chain. We called it blockchain and NASDAQ speed. That was our tagline and the idea was always how do we get stocks and bonds and treasuries and real world assets on chain from all around the world to be traded by everybody around the world. But it turns out that is a much harder legal and regulation problem than it is an engineering problem. But anybody in the world can create markets for anything, including memecoins, including NFTs (非同质化代币：代表对独特数字或物理资产所有权的加密代币). And those things took off. I think in part because of how slow regulation was to catch up.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我认为主要是我们无法预测链上会发生什么。我们称之为“纳斯达克速度的区块链”。那是我们的口号，我们的想法一直是，如何将来自世界各地的股票、债券、国债和现实世界资产上链，让全世界的每一个人都能交易。但事实证明，这在法律和监管上是一个比工程上困难得多的问题。但是，世界上的任何人都可以为任何东西创建市场，包括Meme币，包括NFTs（非同质化代币：代表对独特数字或物理资产所有权的加密代币）。而这些东西火了起来，我认为部分原因是监管跟进的速度太慢了。

Interviewer: Which makes it annoying that those are the things that come out instead of your true mission.

采访者: 这就让人很恼火，因为火起来的是这些东西，而不是你真正的使命。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Yep.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 是的。

Incumbents vs. Disruptors in Finance

Interviewer: We saw Adena from NASDAQ here yesterday. She announced the tokenization of securities that we're going to trade on the exchange. There seem to be a lot of regulated exchanges and businesses that come from that kind of deeply regulated background starting to experiment with blockchain technology. Do you think they're going to be advantaged or disadvantaged given where they're coming from? Does the lock in with regulators, the relationship with regulators, lock in with the market participants give them some leg up or do you think that the disruptors are ultimately going to be able to operate more freely and more quickly?

采访者: 我们昨天在这里见到了纳斯达克的阿迪娜（Adena）。她宣布了将在交易所交易的证券代币化。似乎有很多来自那种受严格监管背景的交易所和企业开始尝试区块链技术。考虑到他们的出身，你认为他们会有优势还是劣势？他们与监管机构的紧密关系、与市场参与者的锁定关系会给他们带来优势，还是你认为颠覆者最终能够更自由、更迅速地运作？

Anatoly Yakovenko: This is the big challenge. I think the advantage that we have that we are very nimble and we can operate everywhere in the world. The advantage that they have is that they're already regulated. They're already operating with those assets that we want on chain in United States but they don't have global availability. NASDAQ is still in its little sandbox. So we'll see what happens. I think once the regulators allow public keys like cryptography to manage and transfer assets that's the interface that you can wrap around and start moving anything from inside NASDAQ to Solana and vice versa. Once that interface exists I think you kind of the genie's out of the bottle, the toothpaste is out of the tube.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 这是个巨大的挑战。我认为我们的优势在于我们非常灵活，可以在世界任何地方运营。而他们的优势在于他们已经受到监管。他们已经在美国境内运营着我们希望上链的那些资产，但他们不具备全球可用性。纳斯达克仍在其小小的沙盒里。所以我们拭目以待。我认为一旦监管机构允许像密码学这样的公钥来管理和转移资产，那就是一个你可以封装的接口，然后就可以开始将任何东西从纳斯达克内部转移到 Solana，反之亦然。一旦那个接口存在，我认为就像是魔鬼出瓶，覆水难收了。

Interviewer: Do you ever meet with the regulated exchanges and are there ways to kind of build integration and partnership that benefits both?

采访者: 你会和那些受监管的交易所会面吗？有没有办法建立一种对双方都有利的整合与合作关系？

Anatoly Yakovenko: Of course. Yeah. So we've talked to folks I think across the spectrum from banks to regulated exchanges and regulators themselves. Solana is fundamentally a protocol. It's like an email standard. It's a bunch of software. The people that run it don't report to me. I can't fire them. So I can't stop it if I wanted to. And if we succeed, if the protocol is awesome and globally synchronous and super fast, NASDAQ would make more money by just running a Solana node and integrating with it more directly. So, like to me, it's ultimately a win-win. We're never going to build an exchange that is on boarding US institutionals and serving US customers. We want NASDAQ to do that and to run it on Solana, and that would be great.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 当然。是的。我们和各方人士都谈过，从银行到受监管的交易所，再到监管机构本身。Solana 本质上是一个协议，就像一个电子邮件标准，是一堆软件。运行它的人不向我汇报，我无法解雇他们。所以即使我想，我也无法阻止它。如果我们成功了，如果这个协议非常出色，全球同步且速度超快，纳斯达克只需运行一个 Solana 节点并与之更直接地整合，就能赚更多的钱。所以，对我来说，这最终是双赢的。我们永远不会去建立一个为美国机构提供服务并服务于美国客户的交易所。我们希望纳斯达克来做这件事，并在 Solana 上运行，那将是非常棒的。

Simplifying Crypto for Mass Adoption

Interviewer: There's a common claim by the masses that it's still extremely complicated to understand. You know, even if it's like just minting and burning or yield farming, you say it to just like the norm core person and their eyes glaze over. What's the turn in the abstraction of all of this stuff that makes crypto truly mass market?

采访者: 大众普遍认为，加密货币仍然极其复杂难懂。你知道，即使只是像铸造和销毁，或者流动性挖矿这样的概念，你对一个普通人说这些，他们也会眼神呆滞。需要在哪方面进行抽象化，才能让加密货币真正走向大众市场？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I actually think that the human brain has to change to adjust to it. I agree with you. It's really complicated. But I landed in the States in 1992 from the USSR effectively. And there's no way my parents could understand what a web link was. So whenever you have a new technology, it just takes people a long time to adopt it and build a mental model for it. But now they do. They understand the web after years of using it. So I think as stablecoins proliferate to the back office in a lot of companies, people will figure out, oh, this secret key is actually really important. I need hardware. I need PKI. I need trusted displays. All of the security stuff. And they will build a mental model for cryptography having true ownership over something that is globally transferable.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我其实认为，是人类的大脑需要改变来适应它。我同意你的看法，这确实很复杂。但我是在1992年从前苏联来到美国的。我的父母当时根本不可能理解什么是网页链接。所以每当有新技术出现时，人们总是需要很长时间来接纳它并为其建立心智模型。但现在他们做到了，经过多年的使用，他们理解了网络。所以，我认为随着稳定币在许多公司的后台办公系统中普及，人们会逐渐明白，哦，这个私钥实际上非常重要。我需要硬件，需要公钥基础设施（PKI），需要可信显示。所有这些安全措施。他们会为密码学建立一个心智模型，理解通过它能真正拥有一件可以全球转移的东西。

The Proliferation of L1 and L2 Blockchains

Interviewer: I saw a chart recently that showed that the number of L1 and L2 projects keep growing year-over-year over like the last three or four years. Why is that happening? What need are they filling?

采访者: 我最近看到一个图表，显示L1（第一层区块链）和L2（第二层解决方案）项目的数量在过去三四年里逐年增长。为什么会这样？它们在满足什么需求？

Anatoly Yakovenko: Well, I think the opportunity is so big to be the Google of finance, right? If you're like the one place for all of finance, all markets run. That is a massive opportunity. So, I think people are going to keep launching L1s and L2s and they're all competing with Solana and that's fine. I love competition. Until somebody wins it. I think as long as we're laser focused on improving the product, making it faster, cheaper, more reliable, we have a really good shot of of actually becoming that global execution engine that's serving all of finance.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 嗯，我认为成为金融界的谷歌这个机会太大了，对吧？如果你能成为所有金融活动的唯一平台，所有市场都在你这里运行，那将是一个巨大的机遇。所以，我认为人们会继续推出 L1 和 L2 项目，它们都在与 Solana 竞争，这很好，我喜欢竞争。直到有人最终胜出。我认为只要我们专注于改进产品，让它更快、更便宜、更可靠，我们就有很大机会真正成为那个服务于整个金融领域的全球执行引擎。

Beyond Finance: Exploring New Verticals

Interviewer: Outside of finance, what do you think is the vertical that has the most promise over the next 5 years in crypto? Where do you think people aren't putting enough attention?

采访者: 在金融之外，你认为未来5年加密领域哪个垂直行业最有前途？你觉得人们在哪个领域投入的关注还不够？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think all the stuff that people have tried, it's kind of like early 90s days experimentation, Friendster, all of those things failed until there was a critical mass of people that understood how the web works and then Facebook took off. So I think even the weird experiments with NFTs being a way to create a community of artists to build a movie or story and create true new IP, all that will happen just 5 years from now or 10 years once we hit critical mass.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我认为人们尝试过的所有东西，都有点像90年代初期的实验，比如 Friendster，所有这些都失败了，直到有足够多的人理解了网络的运作方式，然后 Facebook 才崛起。所以，我认为即使是那些奇怪的实验，比如用 NFT 作为一种方式来创建一个艺术家社区来制作电影或故事，并创造真正的新知识产权（IP），所有这些都可能在5年或10年后，当我们达到临界规模时发生。

Interviewer: So a lot of false starts and somewhere in that graveyard you might find some really good ideas.

采访者: 所以会有很多失败的尝试，但在那片坟墓中，你可能会找到一些真正的好点子。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Absolutely.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 绝对是。

The Intersection of AI, Crypto, and Social Media

Interviewer: Is that the one that you think could break out if Elon put into X, Dogecoin, or put in Solana and there was some sort of currency inherent to the objects and the behaviors?

采访者: 你认为如果埃隆·马斯克将狗狗币（Dogecoin）或 Solana 整合到 X 平台，并让平台上的对象和行为内嵌某种货币，这会是那个可能爆发的领域吗？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I personally think that you could build a competitive product to TikTok with crypto if you caught that kind of lightning in a bottle because the monetization mechanism with crypto is so different than the ad-based one and the ad-based one kind of creates this forcing function for a lot of spam and duplication to ride to the top.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我个人认为，如果你能抓住那种灵感迸发的瞬间，你是有可能用加密技术打造出一款能与 TikTok 竞争的产品的。因为加密技术的变现机制与基于广告的机制截然不同，而基于广告的机制在某种程度上会催生大量垃圾信息和重复内容来获得最高曝光。

Interviewer: How would that work? Just describe your product thinking there that that new kind of experience.

采访者: 那会如何运作呢？请描述一下你对那种全新体验的产品构想。

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think you're kind of seeing some of these things play out with memecoins where you have creators that are associated with a coin that continues to have market cap and traction. And now the regulatory environment isn't here yet to clearly tie the success of that creator to the value of that coin. You need to remove a whole bunch of bottlenecks there. But the product exists. People watch that particular creator stream and go buy that coin. Like once it actually looks like an investment thing that Jason would be like okay I have all legal protection to actually put money in here.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我认为你已经可以在Meme币上看到这类事情的雏形了，有些创作者与某个币相关联，而这个币持续拥有市值和吸引力。现在的问题是，监管环境还未到位，无法将创作者的成功与该币的价值明确挂钩。你需要移除很多瓶颈。但产品本身是存在的，人们观看某个特定创作者的直播，然后去购买那个币。一旦它看起来像一个真正的投资品，让像杰森（Jason）这样的人觉得“好吧，我有充分的法律保障，可以把钱投进去”，情况就会不同。

The Quantum Computing Threat

Interviewer: Can I change tracks a little bit? You're an engineer. You work in cryptography. Have you visited quantum projects? What do you think's the state of development in quantum computing? How much is kind of hype in marketing? How much is real? And what do you think is going to happen over what period of time?

采访者: 我能稍微换个话题吗？你是一名工程师，从事密码学工作。你接触过量子项目吗？你认为量子计算的发展现状如何？其中有多少是市场营销的炒作？有多少是真实的？你认为在未来一段时间内会发生什么？

Anatoly Yakovenko: Honest answer, I feel like 50/50 within 5 years there is a quantum breakthrough. And part of that is because of how fast AI is accelerating.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 老实说，我认为在5年内，量子计算取得突破的可能性是50/50。部分原因在于人工智能（AI）的加速发展。

Interviewer: Define breakthrough.

采访者: 定义一下“突破”。

Anatoly Yakovenko: You can run Shor's algorithm. We should migrate Bitcoin to a quantum resistant signature scheme. This is my bet and this is because we're just so many technologies are converging right now and this asymptotic rate AI and how fast is accelerating going from a research paper to an implementation is is like astounding. So I would try to encourage folks to speed things up. My key for this is Google and Apple adopt a quantum resistant cryptographic stack. This is the time to go migrate because now the consumer side of it is effectively solved and you don't have to kind of...

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 能够运行秀尔算法（Shor's algorithm）。我们应该将比特币迁移到一种抗量子的签名方案上。这是我的判断，因为现在有太多技术正在融合，人工智能正以渐近的速度加速发展，从一篇研究论文到实际应用的速度快得惊人。所以我会鼓励大家加快速度。我认为关键在于谷歌和苹果采用抗量子的加密技术栈。现在是进行迁移的时候了，因为消费端的问题实际上已经解决了，你就不必……

Interviewer: So you watch where Google's going.

采访者: 所以你关注谷歌的动向。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Yeah. But yeah, I would think the people you should be worried if you're in the field, but for the general public, quantum computing is such a massive unlock in terms of how much we can process that it's going to be as big of a wealth creator if we pull it off as AI. So I think this is to me like a lot of work, engineering work. We have the right people to do it, but like for everyone else, it should be like a huge opportunity.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 是的。但我的看法是，如果你在这个领域工作，你应该感到担忧。但对普通大众来说，量子计算在处理能力方面是一个巨大的解放，如果我们能实现它，它将像人工智能一样创造巨大的财富。所以对我来说，这需要大量的工程工作。我们有合适的人才来做这件事，但对其他人来说，这应该是一个巨大的机遇。

The Convergence of AI and Crypto

Interviewer: What's the intersection of all of that world of just AI in general and crypto?

采访者: AI 与加密世界的交集在哪里？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I feel like AI is going to be everywhere and crypto is going to be everywhere, but where those lines cross is just really, really hard to pinpoint. I don't want to say something lame like, oh, we have agents sending money around because that's kind of obvious.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我感觉 AI 将无处不在，加密技术也将无处不在，但它们的交汇点真的很难确定。我不想说一些老套的话，比如“哦，我们会有AI代理到处转账”，因为那有点太显而易见了。

Interviewer: I mean, I think the first attempt was to kind of say maybe there are distributed networks of compute and maybe we can run distributed learning or distributed inference, but those projects really haven't taken off and really generated any momentum.

采访者: 我认为，最初的尝试是说，也许可以有分布式的计算网络，我们可以在上面运行分布式学习或分布式推理，但那些项目并没有真正成功，也没有产生任何势头。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Yeah, not yet. And again, because they're competing with a data center that is all co-located, that is funded with traditional finance and you can put those assets on chain and that's a lot of ways how I think things are going to integrate. Probably the most kind of like singularity bet we can make is you have an agent that is a creator that is like an X personality that you can interface with tokens and buy into and pay for the GPUs. That could be fun.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 是的，还没有。同样，因为它们在与那些集中部署、由传统金融资助的数据中心竞争。你可以把这些资产上链，我认为这将是很多整合发生的方式。或许我们能做的最接近奇点（singularity）的押注是，你有一个作为创作者的 AI 代理，它就像一个 X 平台上的虚拟人格，你可以通过代币与之互动、投资它，并为它的图形处理器（GPU）付费。那可能会很有趣。

Bitcoin's Resilience and Centralization

Interviewer: Bitcoin has turned out to be surprisingly resilient. But now we're starting to see certain players corner the market on large percentages of it. And that was never supposed to happen. So if something like MicroStrategy owns 6%, that's actually maybe 50% more than that because there's so many dead coins out there. Does that worry you the centralization of Bitcoin and does that mean there's an opportunity to start the game a new?

采访者: 事实证明，比特币具有惊人的韧性。但现在我们开始看到某些参与者占据了市场的大部分份额，这是以前从未预料到的。比如，如果微策略公司（MicroStrategy）拥有6%的比特币，考虑到有很多“死亡”的币，实际比例可能要高出50%。比特币的这种中心化趋势会让你担忧吗？这是否意味着有机会重新开始这场游戏？

Anatoly Yakovenko: I think Bitcoin is resilient to these entities collapsing. Now it's not going to be without painful risk in terms of like people that own Bitcoin, but the thing is it'll survive that and all the properties of Bitcoin that people value will remain through that transition. So if you really value Bitcoin, you should see that as like an opportunity to own more of it.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我认为比特币对于这些实体的崩溃具有韧性。当然，对于持有比特币的人来说，这并非没有痛苦的风险，但关键是它能够挺过去，而且人们所看重的比特币的所有特性都会在过渡期中保留下来。所以，如果你真的看重比特币，你应该把这看作是拥有更多比特币的机会。

Interviewer: It seems like there are people who actually have this intent. That's why I'm asking.

采访者: 似乎确实有人有这种意图，所以我才这么问。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Yeah. I think as long as it's an open global competition to acquire Bitcoin and anyone can participate in that and we don't end up in some kind of regulated nightmare, you know, like you can't acquire gold or something like in the 70s, I think Bitcoin would survive those kinds of shocks.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 是的。我认为只要获取比特币是一场开放的全球竞争，任何人都可以参与，并且我们不会陷入某种监管噩梦——比如像70年代那样你不能获取黄金——那么我认为比特币能够承受住这类冲击。

Disrupting Traditional Payment Networks

Interviewer: Your transaction network is quite liquid. It's going to become more and more and more as you have more validators, more clients, all that stuff. Another market that seems has built a monopoly or a duopoly around transactions who's a little bit at risk is Visa and Mastercard. What do you think about that?

采访者: 你的交易网络流动性很强。随着验证者、客户等越来越多，它会变得越来越强大。另一个在交易领域建立了垄断或双头垄断的市场，现在面临一些风险的，是维萨（Visa）和万事达（Mastercard）。你对此怎么看？

Anatoly Yakovenko: My contrary opinion is that I think Visa and Mastercard are more technology companies and if you look at their profit margin on the gross payment volume it's like 10 basis points. It's like vapor. I think the issuer and receiver bank those are the most disruptible pieces on there because their profit margins are like 2%, much, much bigger, right? And Visa is a technology company that owns end to end the customer. If they could remove the banks out of the loop and just do stable coin transfers behind the scenes, I think they become a lot more successful and they can do a lot more for a lot less.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我的相反观点是，我认为维萨和万事达更像是科技公司。如果你看它们在总支付额上的利润率，大概只有10个基点，微乎其微。我认为发卡行和收单行才是最容易被颠覆的部分，因为它们的利润率大约是2%，要高得多，对吧？而维萨是一家端到端拥有客户的科技公司。如果他们能把银行从这个环节中移除，而在幕后直接进行稳定币转账，我认为他们会成功得多，并且能以更低的成本做更多的事。

Interviewer: Long stable coin, short banks.

采访者: 做多稳定币，做空银行。

Anatoly Yakovenko: That I not an investor, but maybe.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 我不是投资者，但也许吧。

Interviewer: I can't comment on this. So that's a yes. Everybody short the bank. Everybody telling you to do this. This is financial advice. Unless it doesn't work out. Thank you so much.

采访者: 我不能评论这个。所以那就是“是”了。大家都去做空银行。每个人都告诉你这么做。这是财务建议。除非它没成功。非常感谢。

Anatoly Yakovenko: Appreciate it. Thank you so much. You're awesome, dude.

阿纳托利·雅科文科: 感谢。非常感谢。你太棒了，兄弟。