序言：成功与失败的教训

Host: Success teaches you nothing, but failure sure teaches you a lot. You've worked with some of the biggest egos in Hollywood and some of the most ruthless tycoons. I'm wondering if you can spend a few minutes on the lessons you've learned about ego and power. Barry Diller is a legendary media mogul, businessman, and investor. He is the chairman and senior executive of IA and is best known for co-founding the Fox Broadcasting Company with Rupert Murdoch and leading Paramount Pictures. Over his career, he has reshaped television, film, and online media. He remains one of the most influential figures in business and entertainment today.

主持人: 成功什么也教不了你，但失败确实能教你很多。您与好莱坞一些最自负的人以及一些最无情的巨头合作过。我想知道您是否能花几分钟时间谈谈从权力和自我中学到的教训。巴里·迪勒是一位传奇的媒体大亨、商人和投资者。他是 IAC (InterActiveCorp: 一家互联网和媒体公司) 的董事长兼高级执行官，最著名的是与鲁珀特·默多克共同创立了 福克斯广播公司 (Fox Broadcasting Company: 美国主要的商业广播电视网络之一)，并领导了 派拉蒙影业 (Paramount Pictures: 一家历史悠久的美国电影制片公司)。在他的职业生涯中，他重塑了电视、电影和在线媒体。如今，他仍然是商业和娱乐界最具影响力的人物之一。

互联网革命与品牌韧性

Barry Diller: We're certainly at the brink of the next revolution. If you were sitting in 1995 or 2000 at the beginning of the things you did not know, and there were plenty of those, there was nothing that cracked your mind and astounded you and said, "Oh my god, this is beyond me. This is magic." Google over the years was consistently, as its monopoly grew, squeezing the people who kind of lived on as a surf on its land. But when I found an asset that couldn't be disintermediated by search, I thought, "Wow, that wasn't AI. That was just the characteristics of the internet environment."

Barry Diller: 我们无疑正处于下一场革命的边缘。如果你回到1995年或2000年，面对那些你一无所知的事物——那时这类事物很多——没有任何东西会让你目瞪口呆，惊呼“天哪，这超出了我的理解，简直是魔法”。多年来，随着 谷歌 (Google: 一家美国跨国科技公司，专注于互联网相关服务和产品) 垄断地位的增长，它一直在挤压那些依赖其“土地”生存的人。但当我发现一种无法被搜索工具取代的资产时，我心想，“哇，那不是人工智能，那只是互联网环境的特点。”

Barry Diller: The only thing that will save us is our brands and whether our brands and the content we make resonates enough directly for people to recognize our brand and want to be brand involved rather than agnostic. I believe until the last breath that brand value is enduring, but it's got to be differentiated. It's got to be clearly differentiated and it's got to be of its own unique value. If it is, I don't worry so much. One way or the other, it'll get recognized.

Barry Diller: 唯一能拯救我们的是我们的品牌，以及我们的品牌和我们创作的内容能否足够直接地引起人们的共鸣，让人们认出我们的品牌并愿意参与其中，而不是漠不关心。我至死都相信，品牌价值 (Brand Value: 品牌在消费者心中的声誉和吸引力) 是持久的，但它必须具有差异化。它必须具有清晰的、领先的差异化，并且必须有其独特的价值。如果能做到这一点，我就不会太担心。无论如何，它都会得到认可。

八旬出书：为何选择此刻？

Host: At 83, you chose to reveal some of the most private parts of your life, and you're a super private person. Why now?

主持人: 您在83岁时选择揭露生活中一些最私密的部分，而您是一个非常注重隐私的人。为什么是现在？

Barry Diller: I can't do the "why now." It wasn't like I chose this date or that date. It's that I had thought that my life was a good story, and if I could tell it true, then I wanted to try and do it. So, it took me an endless amount of time, basically because I put it away for a year and came back to it, and put it away for six months and then came back to it. It was only really in the last couple of years that I was – I wouldn't call it dedicated, but that I had more discipline. I never was sure I would publish it. And then I got to a point where I said, "You know, I've done it. I've kind of told it. I got it down. So, let it go." My friends told me, "Publish it after you're gone, after you die." And I thought, "Well, I ain't going to have anything to do with that, so I'd rather have agency of my own."

Barry Diller: 我无法回答“为什么是现在”。我并非选择了某个特定的日期。而是我曾觉得我的人生是个好故事，如果我能真实地讲述它，我就想尝试去做。所以，这花了我无数时间，主要是因为我把它搁置了一年又重新拾起，又搁置了六个月再回来。直到最近几年，我才变得——我不会称之为全心投入，但我的纪律性更强了。我从不确定自己会出版它。然后我达到了一个点，我说：“你知道，我做到了。我差不多把它讲完了。我把它写下来了。所以，让它去吧。”我的朋友们告诉我：“等你不在了，等你死了再出版。”我想，“嗯，那我就没什么可做的了，所以我宁愿拥有自己的掌控权。”

新书发布后的感受：从曝光到适应

Host: How does it feel to release it out loud into the world?

主持人: 把这本书公开发布到世界上，感觉如何？

Barry Diller: It feels exposing now. It's now been like, I think, three weeks or so, so I've gotten a bit used to it. But in the first days, I thought, "Oh my god, what the hell have I done here?" I think the first day or the second day I did, I think it was a live interview on CBS Sunday Morning. And I know it wasn't live; it was taped, but it went out like right away. And I thought, "I'm being asked all these very personal questions," and I thought, "You know, do I throw down this little microphone and stalk out? What do I do?" And I thought, "You know what? I've done it. So just go answer the questions and get on with it." And kind of once I did that, I relaxed in it a bit. Now I'm kind of used to the exposure.

Barry Diller: 现在感觉很被曝光。大概已经过去三周左右了，所以我有点习惯了。但刚开始几天，我想，“天哪，我到底做了什么？”我记得第一天或第二天，我做了一个，我想那是在 CBS周日早间 (CBS Sunday Morning: 美国哥伦比亚广播公司的一个新闻杂志节目) 的现场采访。我知道那不是直播，是录播的，但它很快就播出了。当时我想，我正在被问及所有这些非常私人的问题，我心想，“你知道，我是不是应该把这个小麦克风扔掉，然后走出去？我该怎么办？”然后我想，“你知道吗？我已经做了。那就去回答问题，然后继续下去。”一旦我那样做了，我就放松了一点。现在我有点习惯了这种曝光。

童年经历：独立的必然性

Host: One of the stories that really stood out for me was as a child you gave up on your mother while you were at sleepaway camp, and you were sitting, waiting for her to pick you up. That seemed to be such a defining moment for you, and it led to this craving of independence and non-reliance on other people. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

主持人: 您的书中有一个故事让我印象深刻，那是您小时候在夏令营时，放弃了对母亲的依赖，当时您正坐着等她来接您。那似乎是您人生中一个决定性的时刻，并促使您渴望独立，不再依赖他人。您能谈谈那件事吗？

Barry Diller: I don't think it was a craving. It was a necessity. I knew at that moment, and it was a stark flash—are those snapshots you have that you capture, and they're always with you for the rest of your life? And I have that snapshot of me in that moment, and I thought, "I'm the only one to protect me, so I have no choice." That's what I felt.

Barry Diller: 我不认为那是一种渴望。那是一种必然。我清楚地记得那个时刻，那是一个清晰的闪回——就像你脑海中那些被捕捉到的瞬间，它们会伴随你一生吗？我脑海中就有那一刻的画面，当时我想，“我是唯一能保护自己的人，所以我别无选择。”这就是我的感受。

Host: How old were you? Can you recount this story?

主持人: 您当时几岁？能讲讲这个故事吗？

Barry Diller: I was eight, and I went to camp, and I was not very happy there. I mean, a lot of children go to camp and have this, but mine was kind of acute, and my mother promised she would come, and she didn't. This was not horrendous child neglect or anything of that sort. My parents were perfectly nice. They just were clueless about children. They really, they'd never been parented. Their parents had never been parented. And so, they had no vocabulary for it. And so, she wasn't really there to protect me. And that scared me.

Barry Diller: 我八岁那年去了夏令营，在那里过得并不开心。我的意思是，很多孩子都会有这样的经历，但我的情况比较严重。我妈妈答应会来，但她没有来。这并非可怕的儿童忽视或其他类似的事情。我的父母非常好。他们只是对孩子一无所知。他们真的，他们自己从未被好好管教过。他们的父母也从未被好好管教过。所以，他们没有这方面的词汇。因此，她当时并没有真正地保护我。那让我很害怕。

Host: I can relate to that a lot. And then you sort of had to develop your own independence from that moment on.

主持人: 我对此深有同感。从那一刻起，您就不得不培养自己的独立性。

Barry Diller: I had no choice. I don't know. I think it's in biology. My biology is very strong, and my biology saved me. I had to be independent, and so I was. I don't claim it as, you know, some something to be prideful about. It just, I was lucky.

Barry Diller: 我别无选择。我不知道。我想这可能存在于生物学中。我的生物本能非常强大，是我的生物本能救了我。我必须独立，所以我就独立了。我并不认为这有什么值得骄傲的。只是……我很幸运。

缺乏自信与“假装成功”

Host: One of the ideas that stood out in your book as well was "fake it until you make it" and how that was crucial to your success. You've had these moments in your career where you sort of believed in yourself almost despite any tangible evidence to indicate that you could do something, and one of the first moments was at ABC and convincing Mr. Golden to let you create original programming for TV. I'd love for you to explore this idea, especially considering I've also heard you in interviews say that you never had any confidence.

主持人: 您的书中还有一个突出的观点是“假装成功，直到你真正成功”，以及它对您的成功至关重要。您的职业生涯中曾有过这样的时刻，您几乎是在没有实际证据表明您能做某事的情况下，就相信了自己。其中一个早期时刻是在 ABC (American Broadcasting Company: 美国广播公司) 任职时，说服戈登先生让您为电视创作原创节目。我很想请您深入探讨这个想法，特别是考虑到我也曾在采访中听您说过您从未有过自信。

Barry Diller: I never had a sense of self because I didn't think I deserved a sense of self, and so I never could claim that. I never thought of that, and I didn't have the kind of early buoyant confidence that I saw around me and that has always attracted me. I'm always attracted to people who are natively confident. I don't know how the hell the stars or their biology or their environment put that together for them. And I see people walking down the street, and I can see their confidence, and I think, "Oh my god, I wish I had ever had that." But then if I had had that, I'd probably end up being a shoe clerk at Macy's. So I think that that lack of a sense of self, oddly, it enabled me in the earliest part of my career to please others to such an extent that it got me going. And once I got going, I just kept going. And I think that that in a sense lack of confidence or lack of sense of self propelled me to count as much as I could in the eyes of others.

Barry Diller: 我从未有过自我意识，因为我不觉得自己配拥有自我意识，所以我从未能宣称拥有它。我从未想过这一点，我也没有我周围看到的那种早期的、充满活力的自信，而那种自信总是吸引着我。我总是被天生自信的人所吸引。我不知道星星、他们的生物学或他们的环境是如何为他们造就这种自信的。我看到人们走在街上，我能看到他们的自信，我心想，“天哪，我多么希望我曾有过那样的自信。”但如果我真有那种自信，我可能最终会成为梅西百货的鞋店店员。所以我想，那种缺乏自我意识的状态，奇怪地在我的职业生涯早期促使我极力取悦他人，以至于让我行动起来。一旦我开始行动，我就一直坚持下去。我认为，这种缺乏自信或缺乏自我意识在某种程度上推动我尽力在他人眼中展现自己的价值。

从无大志到目标明确：邮件收发室的启示

Host: You said that you were sort of an unambitious kid. What changed? Was there a defining moment?

主持人: 您曾说自己是个没什么抱负的年轻人。是什么改变了您？有没有一个决定性的时刻？

Barry Diller: I had no ambition. My family didn't think much, but whatever they thought, somewhat unexpressed but coming out from them as an environment, my family had resources, and so I think they thought, "Well, they'd be supporting me." I never really had a job. I didn't want to go to school. I didn't want to go to college. I didn't want to do much of anything. I was hibernating for a good long time. But I'd always had this interest in the world of entertainment. I grew up around it. Most of my friends' parents were in the entertainment business in one form or the other. And so, I was just pulled by it. It was a tractor beam that always drove me and intrigued me. And when I finally thought, "You know, I really—I'm 19. I want to go to school, but I've got to do something." I mean, I was basically staying up nights and sleeping most days. And I thought, "Well, you know, I would like to learn about the entertainment business." And I thought there are these talent agencies, William Morris, probably at that time the most famous number one agency. And they had a mailroom where they, so to speak, trained people to be agents. I didn't want to be an agent. I thought I'd never be an agent. That was ridiculous. Talk about if you don't have a sense of self, how can you represent others? How can you ever have the confidence to go sell somebody that you're going to take care of their lives? But I thought I could go and learn, and I essentially went there. And at that time, there were big file rooms, paper file rooms, and I read the entire file room, and they had had the history of the entertainment business for 70 years. And so, what incredible luck for someone who wanted to learn stuff, and I did. I was insatiable about learning, and that literally from one day to the next lit a fire of ambition and purposefulness.

Barry Diller: 我当时毫无抱负。我的家人也没多想，但无论他们想什么，尽管有些没有明确表达，但从他们身上表现出来的环境是，我的家庭有资源，所以我想他们觉得，“好吧，他们会支持我的。”我从未真正有过一份工作。我不想上学。我不想上大学。我什么都不想做。我冬眠了很长一段时间。但我一直对娱乐界很感兴趣。我是在这个环境中长大的。我的大多数朋友的父母都在从事某种形式的娱乐业。所以，我只是被它吸引了。那就像一道牵引光束，总是驱使着我，或者说吸引着我。当我最终想到，“你知道，我真的——我19岁了。我想上学，但我必须做点什么。”我的意思是，我基本上是熬夜，白天大部分时间都在睡觉。我想，“嗯，你知道，我想了解娱乐业。”我想到了那些人才经纪公司，比如 威廉·莫里斯 (William Morris: 一家历史悠久的美国人才经纪公司)，那可能是当时最著名的头号经纪公司。他们有一个邮件收发室，可以这么说，他们在那里培训人们成为经纪人。我不想成为经纪人。我认为我永远不会成为经纪人。那太荒谬了。如果你没有自我意识，你怎么能代表别人呢？你如何才能有信心去推销别人，并说你会照顾他们的生活？但我想我可以去学习，所以我基本上去了那里。当时那里有大型档案室，纸质档案室，我阅读了整个档案室，他们那里保存着娱乐业70年的历史。所以，对于一个想学习的人来说，这是多么不可思议的运气，我做到了。我对学习充满渴望，那真是从一天到第二天点燃了我的抱负和目标感。

Host: I love the idea of sort of dark hours and sort of hours learning and preparing that other people could do but didn't do. And you sort of alluded to the fact that nobody wanted that job downstairs in the mailroom. It was just you.

主持人: 我喜欢这种“黑暗时光”的概念，就是那些别人可以做却没去做的学习和准备的时间。您也曾暗示，邮件收发室那个底层的工作没人想干，只有您去做了。

Barry Diller: Yep. I was really lucky because all the people who were in the mailroom were, well, they just wanted to get to be agents. Since I didn't want to be an agent, I took the job no one else wanted. They all wanted to go in and that horrible word "network" around, meet people, press people, do whatever. I went to the dungeon and had this job that allowed me basically almost the entire day to read. And that's what I did for three years until I think they were on the verge of throwing me out.

Barry Diller: 是的。我真的很幸运，因为邮件收发室里的所有人都只是想成为经纪人。既然我不想成为经纪人，我就接受了别人都不想要的工作。他们都想进去，做那些令人讨厌的“人际交往”，结识人，与人交流，做任何事情。我去了那个“地牢”，得到了这份工作，它基本上允许我一整天都在阅读。我就这样做了三年，直到他们我觉得他们快要把我赶出去了。

没有目标的旅程：专注于当下，自然而然

Host: You said you never had a goal, and that's sort of what allowed you to do that. They all wanted to be agents, so they were working towards that. Can you go a little bit deeper on that?

主持人: 您说您从没有目标，而这正是让您能够做到这一点的原因。他们都想成为经纪人，所以他们都在为之努力。您能深入谈谈这一点吗？

Barry Diller: Look, if you want to be a doctor, yes, that's a goal, and you've got to go step by step to get there. There are roles like that. But if you have a specific craft or something, you can name that craft as a goal and train for it or do whatever you have to do for it. I've never had any goals. I had the goal that I wanted to count, and I had the goal that I was fascinated by the entertainment business. I don't like it when people come into the early stages of a broad general entertainment career and say, "I want to run a studio" or things like that. I think whatever your interest is, you just get on the broad path. Whatever door you've got to bang to get in there, you get on the broad path, and everything else takes care of itself. You don't have to say, "I want to be this" or "I want to be that." And I've always mistrusted that.

Barry Diller: 听着，如果你想成为一名医生，是的，那是一个目标，你必须一步一步地去实现它。有些职业就是这样。但如果你拥有一项特定的手艺或技能，你可以将其命名为一个目标，并为此进行培训或做任何你需要做的事情。我从来没有任何目标。我的目标是我想发挥作用，而且我对娱乐业充满热情。我不喜欢那些在广泛的娱乐职业生涯早期就说“我想经营一家电影公司”之类的人。我认为，无论你的兴趣是什么，你只要走上这条宽阔的道路就行。无论你需要敲开哪扇门才能进去，你都要走上这条宽阔的道路，其他一切都会水到渠成。你不必说“我想成为这个”或“我想成为那个”。我一直不信任这种想法。

Host: I was thinking about this as I was reading that in your book, and the thing that came to me was sort of people look at jobs as stepping stones, you know, "this is temporary until I get the job I want." "I want to be an agent's assistant until I'm the agent." But then they're never fully present in the job. They're never just...

主持人: 我读您的书时，想到了这一点，我的感觉是人们常常把工作看作垫脚石，你知道，就是“这只是暂时的，直到我得到我想要的工作为止。”“我想成为经纪人助理，直到我成为经纪人。”但这样他们就从来没有完全投入到工作中。他们从来没有……

Barry Diller: Yeah. I mean, listen, maybe it might work for some. I guess my observation is that doesn't really work. What works is if you get lucky enough to get a position that you don't have experience for, that you haven't mastered, and then you just go about doing it. The sparks you set off naturally impress others and lead. They drag you to the next step. You don't have to do much of anything. And I think when you do too many things, you know, you see people whose naked ambition is so structured and so people who say, "Well, I need to go out and network." And I hear that and I think, "Oh, you fools." I mean, what are you talking about? You don't really need to do that. It's this kind of pro forma thinking of the things you should do, the steps you should take. It really is far more naturalistic than that.

Barry Diller: 是的。我的意思是，听着，也许对某些人来说可能有用。但我的观察是，那并没有真正起作用。真正起作用的是，如果你足够幸运地得到一个你没有经验、尚未掌握的职位，然后你只是全身心地投入去做。你自然而然地激发的火花会打动他人，并引导你。它们会把你推向下一步。你不需要做太多事情。我认为，当你做太多事情时，你知道，你会看到那些赤裸裸的野心如此有条不理的人，以及那些说“我需要出去社交”的人。我听到这些，就觉得，“哦，你们这些傻瓜。”我的意思是，你在说什么呢？你真的不需要那样做。这是一种形式主义的思考，思考你应该做的事情，你应该采取的步骤。它实际上比那自然得多。

第一次被认可：代理助理的经历

Host: Do you remember the first person who had expectations of you?

主持人: 您还记得第一个对您抱有期望的人是谁吗？

Barry Diller: Yes. At one point, one of the things of progress in that mailroom environment is you work on an agent's desk as his assistant, secretary at that time, an assistant. I was very lucky that the person my second time I did it was for someone who did take an interest in me and was kind of the first person where I could see, you know, "I know what I'm doing for him, and I know how effective I am for him." By the way, it's not like he ever said it to me particularly, but I could feel it and know it, and that he had confidence in me gave me the imagery of confidence in myself, and that was probably the first time.

Barry Diller: 是的。在邮件收发室的环境中，晋升途径之一就是作为经纪人的助理工作，当时是秘书，也就是助理。我很幸运，我第二次做这个工作是为一位真正对我感兴趣的人服务，他可以说是第一个让我能清楚地看到，“我知道我在为他做什么，我知道我对他的工作效率有多高”的人。顺便说一句，他并没有特别对我这样说过，但我能感觉到并知道，他对我的信任给了我自我信任的形象，那可能是我第一次有这种感觉。

Host: So he believed in you more than you believed in yourself.

主持人: 所以他比您更相信您自己。

Barry Diller: Well, I had no belief in myself. So, I mean, and I'm not exaggerating this just for whatever, for drama purposes, but I didn't have any belief in myself. But I don't even know if I now have much belief in myself. I know how absurd that probably is to say, but it's—but I can only reflect on my own dim inner workings. I think that there's no doubt that his confidence in me spurred me on for sure. I don't know that it ever made me feel confident, but it sure spurred me on. I just wanted to please him more, and I did. I was the best little assistant the world had ever created.

Barry Diller: 嗯，我根本不相信自己。我的意思是，我不是为了戏剧效果而夸大其词，但我确实不相信自己。甚至我现在也不知道自己有多相信自己。我知道这样说可能听起来很荒谬，但我只能反思自己模糊的内心活动。毫无疑问，他对我的信任确实激励了我。我不知道那是否让我感到自信，但它确实推动了我。我只是想让他更满意，我也做到了。我是世界上最好的小助理。

好莱坞的权力与自我：直率与信任

Host: You've worked with some of the biggest egos in Hollywood and some of the most ruthless tycoons. I'm wondering if you can spend a few minutes on the lessons you've learned about ego and power.

主持人: 您与好莱坞一些最自负的人以及一些最无情的巨头合作过。我想知道您是否能花几分钟时间谈谈从权力和自我中学到的教训。

Barry Diller: I'm direct and I'm sincere and often quite blunt. That in a way does make people maybe trust you. I'm generally very trusting. I don't start out untrusting. I start out trusting, and you have to do a lot to break that trust. So I think that that ability to initially trust and people realize that I am trusting them and I don't say, "Oh, this is a very precious thing. Please don't screw this up." Of course, I've been in situations where it's been misplaced, to say the least. You can't be in business as long as I have to not have your trust broken a lot of times. The great thing is I can't really remember and I don't have any vengeance, and that's again just luck. It's not something I would take pride in. The one great thing about the entertainment business has been, in many ways, demonstrations of various excessive personality in order to get something done or to be distinguishable from the next person. Excessiveness is not a bad quality. And also, if you're trying to convince people of things, you probably got to have either forceful personality, forceful something. That's just whether you got it or you don't got it. And today there is less of it than there was when I was kind of growing up in it, where there were these outsized personalities that if you're interested in entertainment businesses, you've read about for 100 years, that kind of created the business, the motion picture business in particular. It's now a completely different dynamic, but those outsized personalities were thrilling to be around.

Barry Diller: 我很直接，也很真诚，而且常常非常直言不讳。这在某种程度上确实能让人们信任你。我通常很信任别人。我不会一开始就不信任。我一开始是信任的，而要打破这种信任，你必须做很多事情。所以我认为，这种最初信任的能力，以及人们意识到我正在信任他们，而我不会说：“哦，这是一件非常宝贵的事情。请不要搞砸了。”当然，我也曾遇到信任被错付的情况，至少可以说。你不可能像我一样从事商业这么久，而没有经历过很多次信任被打破。很棒的一点是，我真的记不住，也没有任何报复心，这再次只是运气。这不是我会引以为傲的事情。娱乐业的一大优点是，它在许多方面都展现了各种过度的个性，以便完成某事或与众不同。过度并非坏品质。而且，如果你想说服别人，你可能需要强烈的个性，或强烈的某种特质。这取决于你是否拥有。如今，这种特质比我成长时期要少，当时有许多杰出的个性，如果你对娱乐业感兴趣，你会读到100年来正是他们创造了电影业。现在情况完全不同了，但那些杰出的个性令人兴奋。

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主持人: 如果您还在为无线服务支付过高的费用，那么是时候对“不”说“是”了。在 Mint Mobile，他们最喜欢的词就是“不”。没有合同、没有月度账单、没有超额费用、没有隐藏费用，也没有废话。为什么我们总是接受那些定价过高的无线套餐呢？月复一月，我们支付着令人咋舌的账单，其中充斥着隐藏费用和意外的超额收费。有了 Mint Mobile，套餐每月只需15美元起。每个套餐都包含高速数据，以及无限通话和短信，所有服务都在全国最大的5G网络上提供。最棒的是，您不需要新手机。您可以保留您的手机、号码和所有联系人。切换服务非常简单。如果我需要这款产品，我一定会用它。准备好对“不”说“是”了吗？请访问 mintmobile.com/knowledgeproject 进行切换。那是 mintmobile.com/knowledgeproject。需要预付45美元，相当于每月15美元。仅限前三个月的新客户限时优惠。无限套餐中，速度可能在超过35GB后变慢。税费另计。请访问 mintmobile.com 了解详情。

娱乐业的变迁：从内容为王到技术主导

Host: What's changed, do you think?

主持人: 您觉得有什么变化？

Barry Diller: Well, I think the most dramatic change is that the entertainment business, let's say the motion picture business, was kind of encased in its own world during its greatest years of development. That was what these companies did. They just made movies, the great movies of the '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, and some in the '90s. And there's still some good movies made. I'm not saying that. But they were worlds unto themselves. They were important worlds because those movies were exported to the world and became the export of American culture to the world in movies. It is probably the most extraordinary movement dominating almost every country in the world from the inception of the motion picture business. And as time went on, they started doing television, and then they owned cable networks and television networks, etc. And as they diversified, movies somewhat notched down the ladder of importance to these places. I think that has an effect on the work itself. When the seniormost person wakes up every morning and worries about what's going to happen with the movie they're making and how it's doing, and all of that care and feeding of it, is far different than it being number 87 in the priorities of a large conglomerated company. But the most profound change took place with 流媒体 (streaming: 通过互联网实时传输音视频内容的技术)，当技术实质上超越了电视和电影制造商的整个生态系统。

Barry Diller: 嗯，我认为最显著的变化是，娱乐业，尤其是电影业，在其发展的鼎盛时期是相对封闭的。那些公司就做电影，上世纪30年代、40年代、50年代、60年代、70年代、80年代，还有90年代的一些伟大电影。当然现在也有好电影，我不是这个意思。但它们自成一体，是重要的世界，因为这些电影被出口到全球，成为美国文化通过电影输出到世界的方式。从电影业诞生之初，这大概是主导全球几乎每个国家的最非凡运动。随着时间的推移，他们开始涉足电视，然后拥有有线电视网络和电视台等等。随着业务的多元化，电影在这些地方的重要性有所下降。我认为这会影响作品本身。当最高层的人每天早上醒来都在担心他们正在制作的电影会怎么样，表现如何，以及所有这些对它的呵护和投入，这与它在一家大型综合公司中优先级排名第87位的情况截然不同。但最深远的变化发生在 流媒体 (streaming: 通过互联网实时传输音视频内容的技术) 出现之后，技术实质上超越了电视和电影制造商的整个生态系统。

Barry Diller: And so where these pure entertainment companies, by the way, to some degree, it's the furthest you could ever go to say the difference between instinct and ones and zeros or technology, which is, as we know, quite fact-based and numerical as to making any content is instinctive. And those tech companies essentially have now taken over the old hegemony of Hollywood, and now Netflix and Apple and Amazon. I mean, just take one part of it if you want to know the distinction: where if you make content, the test of it is how many people watch it, want it, go to a movie theater, buy a ticket, do whatever. So, you're in direct relationship to the reaction to that thing that you made. If you're Amazon, and your main business is subscriptions in Prime, and you offer content as kind of the thing in the front of the store to get people to come in, you're so far away. It's a different business model. It's no longer based upon, "Oh, I love that program. I love that movie. I pay my money. I react to it, and the reaction is to the people who made it." In this case, that's not the business model. So, it's a completely different environment than it was. Now, not saying it can't produce good things. Good things do get produced, and they will continue to be. But the environment and the process is different. And I think probably just pound for pound, well, I can say this about it: It used to be for sure up until recently, it was fun. You had fun doing it. You did it. You set up your tent every couple of months or month or two, you'd have a movie come out, and you all run towards figuring out how to make it work, etc., etc., etc., and then your next excitement was the next movie, and you lived in that environment. And if the movie was good, it lasted for a while. Things now go so quickly. So, it is not a process today where most people in it will say they're having a good time. It's just so fractionated now, and it goes so quickly that the great thrills of making great programs is kind of gone.

Barry Diller: 顺便说一句，这些纯粹的娱乐公司在某种程度上，已经走到了极致，你无法再区分本能与零和一或技术之间的区别。我们知道，技术是基于事实和数字的，而创造任何内容都是出于本能。这些科技公司现在已经实质上取代了 好莱坞旧霸权 (old hegemony of Hollywood: 指好莱坞传统电影制片厂在娱乐业的主导地位)，现在是Netflix、苹果和亚马逊。我的意思是，如果你想了解其中的区别，只需举一个例子：如果你制作内容，衡量它的标准是：有多少人观看、喜欢、去电影院、买票等等。因此，你与你所创作的作品所引起的反响直接相关。但如果你是亚马逊，你的主要业务是 Prime (Amazon Prime: 亚马逊提供的付费订阅服务) 的订阅，而你提供内容只是作为吸引人们进店的一种“门面”，那么你与内容本身的关系就非常遥远了。这是一种不同的商业模式。它不再基于“哦，我喜欢那个节目。我喜欢那部电影。我付钱。我做出反应，而这种反应是针对制作它的人。”在这种情况下，这不是商业模式。所以，它与过去的环境完全不同。当然，我不是说它不能产生好作品。好作品确实在不断涌现，而且会继续下去。但环境和过程是不同的。我认为，可能只是从实际情况来看，我可以说：直到最近，制作东西确实是很有趣的。你从中获得乐趣。你做到了。你每隔一两个月就搭起你的帐篷，一部电影就会上映，你们所有人都会努力弄清楚如何让它成功，等等等等，然后你的下一个兴奋点就是下一部电影，你生活在那个环境中。如果电影好，它就会持续一段时间。现在事物发展得太快了。所以，如今，大多数参与其中的人不会说他们过得很开心。现在它变得如此碎片化，而且发展得如此迅速，以至于制作精彩节目的巨大乐趣已经消失了。

数据驱动与本能决策：内容创作的困境

Host: Do you think it's too numbers driven? I mean, you mentioned instinct as a deciding factor. You used to decide on instinct, and you know other people would bring numbers, and I think one of your quotes, if I remember correctly, was "Numbers can tell you what has happened in the past, but they won't tell you what's happened in the future," but everything is sort of analytical these days. Netflix can see the exact moment somebody stopped watching a show. So when they're doing programming, they think about this. And do you think it's getting too formulaic and too data driven? I don't think algorithms can help here.

主持人: 您认为它是不是过于数据驱动了？我的意思是，您提到本能是决定因素。您过去凭本能做决策，而其他人会提供数据。我记得您的一个说法，如果我没记错的话，是“数字可以告诉你过去发生了什么，但它们不会告诉你未来会发生什么。”但如今一切都变得分析化了。Netflix 可以看到观众停止观看节目的确切时刻。所以在节目制作时，他们会考虑这些。您认为这是否变得过于程式化和数据驱动了？我认为算法在这里帮不上忙。

Barry Diller: None of us know what's going to happen with the dread and wonderful word AI (Artificial Intelligence: 模拟人类智能的计算机科学领域), but I don't think that that predictive research is, certainly in the arena of content, worthless. It cannot tell you anything of real value in making a forward decision; it's just not possible. And yet everybody wants it to be possible. Why? Because making instinctive decisions is living with great insecurity. There's no way to be secure when you're making decisions based on instinct. If I can get more comfort by using this piece of data or that piece of data to help me, lovely. But it's a delusion.

Barry Diller: 我们谁也不知道那个既可怕又美妙的词——人工智能 (AI, Artificial Intelligence: 模拟人类智能的计算机科学领域) 将会带来什么。但我认为，那种预测性研究，尤其是在内容领域，是毫无价值的。它无法在做前瞻性决策时为你提供任何真正的价值；这根本不可能。然而，每个人都希望它成为可能。为什么？因为凭本能做决策意味着生活在巨大的不确定性中。当你凭本能做决策时，没有办法感到安全。如果我能通过使用这份或那份数据来“帮助”我，从而获得更多的安慰，那很好。但这只是一种错觉。

数据之盾：逃避责任的幻象

Host: It's almost like hiding, you know, the safety in the numbers. "I wasn't wrong. The numbers were wrong." And you can absolve yourself from responsibility in a way.

主持人: 这几乎就像是躲藏在数字后面寻求安全感，你知道吗。“我没做错。是数字错了。”在某种程度上，您也可以因此免除自己的责任。

Barry Diller: You can only do that for so long because in the end, your work will get you good or bad, and there's nothing you can—you can't hide. That's the thing that I will always love about that world: you're out there with whatever you've made, you've put together, whatever role you played in it, and there's no hiding. It's there for people to see and react to, and they will react.

Barry Diller: 你只能在一定时间内这样做，因为最终，你的工作结果是好是坏，你都无法——你无处可藏。这是我永远热爱那个世界的原因：你把你创造的东西、你所组织的一切、你在其中扮演的任何角色都摆在那里，无处可藏。它在那里供人们观看和评判，他们也确实会做出反应。

失败的馈赠：持续磨砺本能

Host: Is there any particular failure that stands out in your mind, like, "Oh, I learned a lot from that one," or "It was more impactful than the other ones"?

主持人: 有没有什么特别的失败在您心中印象深刻，让您觉得“哦，我从那次中学到了很多”，或者“那次比其他失败更有影响力”？

Barry Diller: If you are in the work of making things, content, you're going to have a good amount of failure. It's not possible otherwise. Now, I've been lucky. Well, I won't say it's luck. It is. That isn't luck. But I've had enough successes to balance the failures and probably have had a better average, let's call it, of that. But every failure in some way ought to teach you something. And success teaches you nothing. But failure sure teaches you a lot.

Barry Diller: 如果你从事创作工作，你会经历相当多的失败。否则是不可能的。现在，我很幸运。嗯，我不会说是运气。它是。那不是运气。但我已经取得了足够的成功来平衡失败，而且可能平均来看表现更好。但每一次失败都应该以某种方式教会你一些东西。成功什么也教不了你。但失败确实能教你很多。

Host: Are there lessons that you've sort of been taught multiple times from failure that you're sort of like, "I keep running into that, but it's a different version of the same problem?"

主持人: 有没有哪些教训是您从失败中多次学到的，以至于您会觉得，“我总是遇到同样的问题，只是版本不同”？

Barry Diller: The most important thing and the thing that I have been reminded of continuously is to keep scrubbing my instincts clean as it were. Every time I've made a decision out of cynicism, I wouldn't say every time, because sometimes probably it has worked, but there's a continual theme of cynical decision-making that is poor. So being naive, not being cynical, being able to not let life experience, so to speak, infect your basic instinct, your ability to know a good idea from a bad idea. That has been, if anything, the thing that constantly I've had to work at, because as you gain experience, the natural tendency is to be cynical or to be sophisticated, is to know things, and it's something that I've just learned to fight against, not always successfully.

Barry Diller: 最重要的事情，也是我一直被不断提醒的事情，就是不断“清洗”我的本能。每次我出于愤世嫉俗做出决定时——我不会说每一次都这样，因为有时它可能确实奏效了——但愤世嫉俗的决策模式一直是一个糟糕的主题。所以，保持天真，不愤世嫉俗，能够不让生活经验“感染”你的基本本能，你辨别好坏想法的能力。这始终是我必须努力克服的事情，因为随着经验的增长，人们自然的倾向是变得愤世嫉俗或老练，变得自以为是，而这正是我一直在努力对抗的，尽管并非总是成功。

拥抱天真：保持初心，对抗腐蚀

Host: How do you maintain that beginner's mindset, though? Like, what are the things that you do to approach things that way?

主持人: 不过，您是如何保持那种“初学者心态”的呢？比如，您会做些什么来以那种方式处理事情？

Barry Diller: I wish I could give you a prescription for this. I think probably the best way I can say it is, hold on to naiveté. Do not let the fact that you are, of course, learning things—and learning is, of course, how could you say it's anything but good—but living in an environment where the corrosiveness of the day grinds at you and makes you worriedly cynical and all of that is just something you've got to fight against. It ain't the best prescription, but that's all I got.

Barry Diller: 我真希望我能给你开个药方。我想我能说出的最好的方法就是，保持天真。当然，你一直在学习新事物——学习当然是好事，怎么能说它不好呢？但生活在一个日常琐事不断侵蚀你、让你担忧地变得愤世嫉俗的环境中，你必须与之抗争。这不是最好的药方，但这就是我能给你的。

AI时代：颠覆性变革与未知未来

Host: You mentioned AI. I want to come back to that in a second. You've lived through major technological disruptions, from cable to TV to home video to theaters becoming less important, and now we have the internet, and we have AI here. I'm wondering if you can spend a few beats on AI and tell me about how you see that not only impacting the media and film business, but also maybe double-click on how you think it's going to impact the website and travel and all of these other things that you're involved in, off the content business into the worlds that I've been in for the last 25 or so years, which is the worlds of internet tech life with Expedia (在线旅行社: 一家领先的在线旅行社) and dozens and dozens of other websites, commerce sites, etc.

主持人: 您提到了人工智能，我想再谈谈这个。您经历了重大的技术颠覆，从有线电视到普通电视，再到家庭录像，影院重要性下降，现在我们有了互联网和人工智能。我想知道您是否能谈谈人工智能，以及您认为它不仅会影响媒体和电影业，还可能对您过去25年左右一直涉足的网站、旅游以及所有其他与内容业务无关的互联网科技领域产生怎样的影响，比如 Expedia 和几十个其他的网站、电商平台等等。

Barry Diller: And I was very lucky. I got to participate in that revolution which started really around '95 when the internet started to get used by ordinary folk. And I was there in that period and able to have this wonderful field kind of open there just for the grabbing and learning, and that was definitely a radical transformation. We're certainly at the brink of the next revolution. If you were sitting in 1995 or 2000, at the beginning of the things you did not know, and there were plenty of those, there was nothing that cracked your mind and astounded you and said, "Oh my god, this is beyond me. This is magic." You could master it. It wasn't hard to master. AI, will it master us? Certainly in some cases it probably will. The first time I used ChatGPT (Generative Pre-trained Transformer: 一种大型语言模型) which was before it was released, and I thought, "Well, this is faking magic," and we're past that very early stage. We're into the great unknown here. It's going to have profound effect. I don't know to what exact extent. I know that for my businesses, we are racing, and we've been doing this for years. We go and anyone in business has been using machine learning for a decade or more. We're so far past that now in so many different areas that I can't by any stretch tell you the extent of these changes, except I know they're profound.

Barry Diller: 我非常幸运。我参与了那场革命，它大约始于1995年，当时互联网开始被普通大众使用。我在那个时期，能够看到这个美妙的领域敞开在那里，任人探索和学习，那确实是一场彻底的变革。我们无疑正处于下一场革命的边缘。如果你回到1995年或2000年，面对那些你一无所知的事物——那时这类事物很多——没有任何东西会让你目瞪口呆，惊呼“天哪，这超出了我的理解，简直是魔法。”你可以掌握它。掌握它并不难。那么，人工智能 (AI, Artificial Intelligence: 模拟人类智能的计算机科学领域)，它会驾驭我们吗？在某些情况下，它很可能会。我第一次使用 ChatGPT (Generative Pre-trained Transformer: 一种大型语言模型) 是在它发布之前，当时我想，“哇，这简直是假装的魔法！”我们已经超越了那个非常早期的阶段。我们现在正进入巨大的未知领域。它将产生深远的影响。我不知道具体程度如何。我只知道对于我的业务来说，我们正在加速前进，而且我们已经这样做了多年。我们和任何商业人士一样，使用机器学习已经十年或更久了。现在我们在这方面已经远远超越了，在许多不同的领域，我无法完全告诉你这些变化的程度，只知道它们影响深远。

AI对旅游业的影响：Agentic AI的崛起

Host: How do you think it's going to impact the travel business?

主持人: 您认为它将如何影响旅游业？

Barry Diller: Well, it's already impacted the travel business. You are able now, I mean, Expedia, which is a large entity. I mean, 15 or 20 billion dollars of sales, you it's a large enterprise, and it is a tech company. The things we are using AI to do now, which did not exist, is profound in every area of our service. It is more than likely that within a year, but I won't say that, and I think it really is probably truly within a year or so, you really will be able to have a conversation. Agentic (代理人工智能: 能够自主执行任务并与用户深度互动的AI), this new word where an agent does work for you will know so much about you. It's not like they will have known that your calendar says you have to be in Las Vegas on Thursday, the 20th of September, and we'll just take care of everything for you. Eventually that may happen, but the dialogue that you will have very soon, where the agent will know so much and have such agency with the ability to actually complete a transaction in all its respects, is not far off. That's an extraordinary change.

Barry Diller: 嗯，它已经影响了旅游业。你现在可以做到，我的意思是，Expedia (在线旅行社: 一家领先的在线旅行社) 是一个庞大的实体。我的意思是，每年有150亿或200亿美元的销售额，它是一个大型企业，也是一家科技公司。我们现在利用人工智能所做的事情，以前是不存在的，对我们服务的每个领域都产生了深远影响。很有可能在一年内，但我不会这么说，而且我认为可能确实在一年左右，你将能够真正进行对话。代理人工智能 (Agentic AI: 能够自主执行任务并与用户深度互动的AI)——这个新词，指的是一个代理为你工作，它将非常了解你。这不只是说它们会知道你的日历显示你9月20日星期四必须在拉斯维加斯，然后我们会为你安排好一切。最终这可能会发生，但你很快就能进行的对话，即代理将了解如此之多，并拥有如此强大的代理能力，能够真正完成一笔完整的交易，这已经不远了。那是一个非凡的变化。

广告: .tech 域名

Host: If you're a founder, you know naming your startup takes forever. You finally land on the perfect name only to find out that Peter from Delaware got to the.com first. So, you're stuck with two bad options: pay up and fund Peter's retirement or tack on random words until your domain looks like a Wi-Fi password. But after all the time and money spent on naming, you don't want that. And thanks to tech domains, you don't have to. With .tech, you get the name you actually want. It's clean, sharp, no compromises. It instantly tells investors and customers that you're building technology. CES.tech, the world's biggest consumer tech event, uses .tech domain. So does 1x.tech, an OpenAI-backed startup, along with hundreds of thousands of tech companies worldwide. So don't waste another minute negotiating. Go to GoDaddy, Namecheap, Cloudflare, or wherever you buy your domains and get your .tech domain today.

主持人: 如果您是创始人，您就会知道给您的初创公司命名需要永恒的时间。您终于找到了完美的名称，却发现特拉华州的彼得已经抢先注册了 .com 域名。因此，您陷入了两个糟糕的选择：要么支付高额费用资助彼得退休，要么添加随机词汇，直到您的域名看起来像 Wi-Fi 密码。但在命名上花费了所有时间和金钱之后，您肯定不希望那样。感谢 .tech 域名，您不必如此。有了 .tech，您可以得到您真正想要的名称。它简洁、犀利、毫不妥协。它能立即告诉投资者和客户您正在构建技术。全球最大的消费科技盛会 CES.tech 使用 .tech 域名。OpenAI 支持的初创公司 1x.tech 也是如此，全球还有数十万家科技公司都在使用 .tech 域名。所以不要再浪费一分钟进行谈判了。前往 GoDaddy、Namecheap、Cloudflare 或任何您购买域名的平台，立即获取您的 .tech 域名。

广告: Remarkable Paper Pro Move 电子纸平板

Host: Introducing the remarkable Paper Pro Move. It's a paper tablet, a digital notebook that combines the familiar feel of paper with the digital powers of a tablet. Start by taking notes with any of the dozens of built-in templates. Then turn your handwriting into typed text and share it by email or Slack. You can even continue your work on the desktop or mobile apps. Too much technology draws us in and shuts out the world. This paper tablet does it. It will never beep or buzz or try to grab your attention so you can devote your focus to what or who is right in front of you. It can fit all your notes and documents and lasts up to two weeks on a single charge, but slips easily inside your jacket pocket. And most importantly, Remarkable's mission is about helping you think better. That means no apps, social media, or any other distractions. You can try Remarkable Paper Pro Move for 100 days for free. If it's not what you were looking for, you get your money back. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and get your paper tablet today.

主持人: 隆重推出卓越的 Paper Pro Move。它是一款电子纸平板，一个数字笔记本，结合了纸张的熟悉手感和平板电脑的数字功能。首先，您可以使用数十种内置模板中的任意一个来做笔记。然后，将您的手写内容转换为打印文本，并通过电子邮件或 Slack 分享。您甚至可以在桌面或移动应用程序上继续工作。过多的技术吸引我们，却将世界拒之门外。这款电子纸平板做到了。它永远不会发出蜂鸣声、嗡嗡声，也不会试图吸引您的注意力，这样您就可以专注于您面前的人或事。它可以存储您的所有笔记和文档，单次充电可使用长达两周，而且可以轻松滑入您的夹克口袋。最重要的是，Remarkable 的使命是帮助您更好地思考。这意味着没有应用程序、社交媒体或任何其他干扰。您可以免费试用 Remarkable Paper Pro Move 100天。如果它不是您所寻找的，您可以获得退款。访问 remarkable.com 了解更多信息，立即获取您的电子纸平板。

旅游业与出版业的未来：数据、品牌与核心价值

Host: Sounds like there are opportunities for you from travel planning, knowing your customer, and there's a lot there, but there's also this sort of disintermediation threat, I would imagine, where people are purchasing their travel or planning their travel in a completely different way that doesn't involve something like Expedia. How do you think about that?

主持人: 听起来，在旅行规划、了解客户方面，您有很多机会，但我想也存在这种去中介化的威胁，人们可能会以完全不同的方式购买或计划旅行，而不再涉及像 Expedia 这样的平台。您对此有何看法？

Barry Diller: They will unless we plan it better than the next dope or a competitor of ours. We have more information now than anybody else has. So if we screw that up, it's, you know, it's on us, as they say, and we deserve to fail. But presumably, if we are satisfying the consumer because of the data that we have, which is deep and vast, then I think they'll continue to engage us. They'll continue to want us to do that for them. I think from what I know now, it is not easy today for anyone else to do that, other than our competitors can do that today, but it's not easy for any 大型语言模型 (Large Language Model: 模仿人类语言的AI模型) or any modality that I know of. So it's up to us to do it. It's always, listen, one of our—we're the largest publisher that's another business of ours called Dotdash Meredith (美国领先的数字和印刷出版公司，IAC旗下) where we're with People Magazine in Better Homes and Gardens, Travel Leisure, et 60 some odd magazines that we publish digitally and also hugely still in print. Obviously, that is a business that's supported by advertising. And with the changes in search that could disintermediate those advertising opportunities, the only thing that will save us is our brands and whether our brands and what we—the content we make—resonates enough directly for people to recognize our brand and want to be brand involved rather than agnostic. I believe until the last breath that brand value is enduring, but it's got to be differentiated. It's got to be clearly differentiated and it's got to be of its own unique value. If it is, I don't worry so much. One way or the other, it'll get recognized.

Barry Diller: 除非我们比下一个傻瓜或我们的竞争对手做得更好，否则他们会的。我们现在拥有比任何人都多的信息。所以如果搞砸了，就像他们说的，那责任在我们，我们活该失败。但想必，如果我们能用我们深厚而庞大的数据来满足消费者，那么我认为他们会继续与我们合作。他们会继续希望我们为他们做这些。以我目前所知，除了我们的竞争对手，今天对任何其他人来说都不容易做到这一点，任何 大型语言模型 (Large Language Model: 模仿人类语言的AI模型) 或我所知的任何模式都不容易做到。所以这取决于我们自己。听着，我们是最大的出版商之一，那是我们的另一项业务，叫做 Dotdash Meredith (美国领先的数字和印刷出版公司，IAC旗下)，我们旗下有《人物》杂志、《美好家园与花园》、《旅行休闲》等60多种杂志，我们以数字形式出版，也有大量的印刷版。显然，这是一项由广告支持的业务。随着搜索领域的变化，这些广告机会可能会被去中介化，唯一能拯救我们的是我们的品牌，以及我们的品牌和我们创作的内容能否足够直接地引起人们的共鸣，让人们认出我们的品牌并愿意参与其中，而不是漠不关心。我至死都相信，品牌价值 (Brand Value: 品牌在消费者心中的声誉和吸引力) 是持久的，但它必须具有差异化。它必须具有清晰的差异化，并且必须有其独特的价值。如果能做到这一点，我就不会太担心。无论如何，它都会得到认可。

AI时代下的机遇：不可替代的体验

Host: What opportunities do you see in new business lines that maybe you could acquire or data sets or anything on the horizon where you're like, "Oh, we can take advantage of AI wave by doing something different versus a legacy business"?

主持人: 您认为在新的业务领域，有哪些机会可能是您可以收购的，或者新的数据集，或者任何您觉得可以利用 人工智能 (AI, Artificial Intelligence: 模拟人类智能的计算机科学领域) 浪潮，通过与传统业务不同的方式来抓住的机会？

Barry Diller: Our company owns a large interest in MGM Resorts (米高梅国际酒店集团: 一家全球领先的酒店和娱乐公司), which has nine resorts in Las Vegas. There's no way to disintermediate the experience. I mean, again, if we're in a simulation, we can go into that route, but there's no way as humans you can find an experience that's going to divert you from all the entertainment offerings that a Las Vegas has to offer. It's impervious to AI or to anything other than whether or not you got something that's pleasurable for a family and exciting for people to come and see concerts and all of the things that take place at the kind of scale that takes place in Las Vegas. What impressed me about that in the very beginning was I said nobody's ever going to make another one of those. No matter how much anyone tries, Las Vegas is on its own. It's not necessarily for everybody, but no one is going to recreate the infrastructure that exists in that particular place. That's unique and of, I think, enduring value. And I'm fascinated by it because I just think it is again an example of a place where you can make something up today and it comes out tomorrow. Meaning there's nothing that stands in your way. We just created a beach club with Cairo at one of our properties that is just, it's just original and anything you can think of. There's nothing to stand in your way of making it up there.

Barry Diller: 我们公司在 MGM Resorts (米高梅国际酒店集团: 一家全球领先的酒店和娱乐公司) 拥有大量股权，他们在拉斯维加斯有九家度假村。这种体验是无法被取代的。我的意思是，如果我们在一个模拟世界里，我们可以走那条路，但作为人类，你无法找到一种体验能够让你从拉斯维加斯提供的所有娱乐活动中转移开。它对人工智能或任何其他事物都是免疫的，除了你是否能提供一些让家庭愉悦、让人们兴奋地来观看音乐会以及所有在拉斯维加斯那种规模下发生的事情。最初让我印象深刻的是，我说没人能再造一个那样的东西了。无论谁如何尝试，拉斯维加斯都是独一无二的。它不一定适合所有人，但没有人能重现那个特定地方现有的基础设施。那是非常独特的，我认为具有持久的价值。我对此很着迷，因为我只是觉得它再次是一个例子，说明你今天可以创造一些东西，明天它就能实现。这意味着没有什么能阻碍你。我们刚刚在我们的一个物业里与 凯罗 (Cairo: 可能指某个合作方或设计师) 共同创建了一个沙滩俱乐部，它就是原创的，任何你能想到的东西。在那里创造新事物，没有任何阻碍。

疫情中的远见：投资米高梅

Host: When did you get involved with MGM?

主持人: 您是什么时候开始涉足米高梅的？

Barry Diller: It was during latter stage COVID. Now MGM was out of business, just like for a long time Expedia was out of business. I mean, nobody could travel. Nobody could go. Nobody—the entire city was shut down. But I looked at it and I thought, just like I thought about travel, "If there's life, there's travel." Well, if there's life and there's going to be life, there's going to be Las Vegas. And so MGM, its value had decreased enormously. So we were able to purchase a large percentage of it inexpensively at the time because we believed that once you reopened, it would be fine, and we picked, I think, the best entity to do it. All the entities suffered the same situation. But that's what intrigued me, and its infrastructure, the fact that it had 480 restaurants in one place, 125 performance venues, 9 million, I think it's 9 million feet of convention. I mean, it just was so—once we learned about it, it was so vast and deep. [I] said, "How do you, you know, how do you not do this?" That's one of the things that motivated us.

Barry Diller: 那是在疫情后期。当时米高梅停业了，就像 Expedia 长期停业一样。我的意思是，没有人能旅行。没有人能去。整个城市都关闭了。但我看着它，我想，就像我思考旅行一样：“有生命，就有旅行。”那么，如果有生命并且将会有生命，那么就会有拉斯维加斯。因此，米高梅的价值大幅下降。所以我们当时得以廉价购买了它很大一部分股权，因为我们相信一旦重新开放，它就会好起来。而且我认为我们选择了最好的实体来做这件事。所有实体都遭受了同样的情况。但正是这一点吸引了我，还有它的基础设施，它在一个地方拥有480家餐厅，125个表演场地，900万，我想是900万平方英尺的会议空间。我的意思是，一旦我们了解了它，它就如此庞大而深远。我当时想，“你如何，你知道，你如何能不做这个呢？”这就是激励我们做这件事的原因之一。

Host: Were you thinking about that through a lens of AI at the time?

主持人: 您当时是否以 人工智能 (AI, Artificial Intelligence: 模拟人类智能的计算机科学领域) 的视角来考虑这个问题？

Barry Diller: Well, to a degree, for sure, the internet world, I think that everybody participated in up until—still true to some degree today—was so dominated by Google. Google, absolute monopoly on search. And all your traffic—I mean, at least half your traffic, if you were healthy, would come from people coming directly to you. But the other half, without which you wouldn't be able to survive, came from Google. And Google over the years was consistently, as its monopoly grew, squeezing the people who kind of lived on as a surf on its land. So I was always—I mean, we were fighting that good fight for 20-plus years and succeeding and building some considerable assets. But when I found an asset that couldn't be disintermediated by search, I thought, "Wow, that wasn't AI. That was just the characteristics of the internet environment."

Barry Diller: 嗯，在某种程度上，肯定是的，互联网世界，我认为直到现在在某种程度上仍然是这样，一直被谷歌主导。谷歌在搜索领域拥有绝对的垄断。而你所有的流量——我的意思是，如果你经营得好，至少一半的流量会直接来自访问你的人。但另一半，没有它你就无法生存，则来自谷歌。多年来，随着其垄断地位的增长，谷歌一直在持续挤压那些仿佛在其“土地”上冲浪的人。所以，我一直——我的意思是，我们与那场“好战”斗争了20多年，并且成功了，建立了一些可观的资产。但当我发现一种无法被搜索工具取代的资产时，我心想，“哇，那不是人工智能。那只是互联网环境的特点。”

直率与冲突：探索真理的途径

Host: I want to come back to the fact that you said you were direct and blunt as two of your defining traits, and most people shy away from confrontation, and you love it. Can you tell me more about that?

主持人: 我想回到您之前说的，直率和坦诚是您的两个鲜明特点，而且大多数人回避冲突，而您却喜欢它。您能多谈谈这一点吗？

Barry Diller: I'm not really very good on my very own, staring at a wall or at a screen or at something. I need the convulsive arguing of ideas of people who have passion, and that's often got a lot of voices, and a lot of voices saying, "Okay, it's okay," but a lot of voices saying, "That's stupid," or whatever opinion. Trying to listen for what rings your instinct is a process that I think is best conducted in extreme, at least for me and those that like being around me and doing it, and some do. I love confrontation because in confrontation out comes stuff that if you're listening, no matter how noisy that confrontation gets, if your ear is open, you're listening, and you'll hear something. And the thing you hear will be a better truth, at least for me, than in any other process. So, I do love it, and I've always prized it, and if I'm not in an environment where it's happening, I think it's kind of dull outside, inside or wherever.

Barry Diller: 我自己一个人盯着墙、屏幕或什么东西的时候，其实不太擅长思考。我需要那些充满激情的、激烈辩论思想的人，这往往会有很多声音，很多声音说着“好的，没问题”，但也有很多声音说“那很蠢”，或者其他各种意见。尝试倾听那些能触动你本能的东西，我认为这个过程最好在极端情况下进行，至少对我而言是这样，对那些喜欢在我身边并和我一起做这件事的人也是如此，有些人确实喜欢。我喜欢冲突，因为在冲突中会产生一些东西，如果你在倾听，无论冲突变得多么嘈杂，只要你敞开心扉倾听，你就会听到一些东西。而你听到的东西，至少对我而言，会比任何其他过程中得到的更接近真相。所以，我确实喜欢它，我一直珍视它，如果我不在一个发生冲突的环境中，我觉得外面、里面或任何地方都有些无聊。

Host: Why do you think people aren't always direct? Like, where does that come from? Where does your directness come from? Was that a learned thing, or were you always direct?

主持人: 您认为为什么人们不总是直言不讳呢？这源于何处？您的直率又从何而来？那是后天习得的，还是您一直都如此直率？

Barry Diller: No, I always was. I don't know, Lon. My interior thinking, like many things with me, is I think it's biological. I can't—I can't do it any other way. It's not like I made a choice. It's like I said, "Oh, let's do that because it's better than not doing that." So then in endless situations where I see people run from confrontation, and I, of course, can't do anything. Of course, you—I tolerate it. But I tend to kind of run from it. It just makes me uncomfortable. And I understand better those that are incapable of it or worried about it than I do me that's very capable of it. I mean, I certainly understand why you would be—it's combative. It is irritating. It is often frustrating. It is a lot of things. I value those things. Other people hate it.

Barry Diller: 不，我一直都是这样。我不知道，隆。我的内心想法，就像我身上的许多事情一样，我认为是生理性的。我无法——我无法以其他方式行事。这不像我做出的选择。这就像我说，“哦，我们这样做吧，因为它比不这样做更好。”所以，在无数次看到人们逃避冲突的情境中，我当然无能为力。当然，我容忍它。但我倾向于逃避它。那只会让我感到不舒服。而且我更能理解那些无法或害怕冲突的人，而不是我自己这个非常擅长冲突的人。我的意思是，我当然理解你为什么会那样——它是好斗的。它令人恼火。它常常令人沮丧。它有很多缺点。但我看重这些东西。其他人则讨厌它。

迭代式学习：“一步步摸索，不断纠正”

Host: You have a passage in your book that I loved. It's great self-talk, and I'm going to read it because I want to quote it. You said, "Like almost everything in my life, iteration one dumb step in front of the other, course correcting as you go, is the only process I'm any good at." And this process became your mantra. Can you unpack this for me a bit?

主持人: 您的书中有我非常喜欢的一段话。那是非常棒的自言自语，我想引用一下。您说：“就像我生命中的几乎所有事情一样，迭代 (Iteration: 重复执行某个过程或步骤，以逐步改进或解决问题)——一步步摸索，边走边纠正——是我唯一擅长的过程。”这个过程成为了您的座右铭。您能为我稍微解释一下吗？

Barry Diller: I learn from bouncing off the walls of a bad direction or a mistake or whatever, and course correcting and make less mistakes. Look, there are some people for sure, relatively few, but there are certainly people who don't need to bother with that because they are brilliant in ways I'm not. And they are able to seemingly not have any process. That's where genius lies for those people that are fantastic. My observation is they have other problems, but for those of us who are not particularly in something that hasn't happened before—now, you know, things that are very known, you can find guideposts—but in the world that I am involved in, and the world that I'm most happy to be involved in, is where something isn't known, and you are making progress as you go, building a company step by step, adapting an idea from wherever it comes from to whatever it's going to be, that the only way to proceed is in that world of unknown, of building something, is I can do it only by bouncing off the wall, going a step forward, pushing back, being pushed back a half a step, and eventually making less mistakes and busting through. I think what keeps people from doing that is they don't want to look like an idiot. So, it prevents them from starting in the first place. They don't want to look like an amateur. They're scared.

Barry Diller: 我通过在错误的方向上或犯错时不断碰壁来学习，然后纠正方向，减少犯错。看，确实有些人，相对较少，但确实有些人不需要为此烦恼，因为他们在我所不具备的方面非常出色。他们似乎能够没有任何过程。这就是那些了不起的人的天才所在。我的观察是他们有其他问题，但对于我们这些并非特别从事以前从未发生过的事情的人——现在，你知道，非常已知的事情，你可以找到路标——但在我所参与的世界里，也是我最乐意参与的世界里，是那些未知的事物，你在不断前进的过程中取得进展，一步步建立公司，将一个想法从任何来源改编成任何它将要成为的样子，在这种未知的世界里，建立某些东西的唯一方法是，我只能通过碰壁来做到，向前迈一步，被推回半步，最终减少错误并突破。我认为阻碍人们这样做的是他们不想看起来像个傻瓜。所以，这阻止了他们一开始就动手。他们不想看起来像个业余爱好者。他们害怕了。

Host: But what's your reaction to that?

主持人: 但您对此有何反应？

Barry Diller: It was a long time ago. I don't know who said it or whatever, but it rang for me. Very true. Somebody said something, and someone else said, "Well, that's stupid." And the person said, "That's what I want, stupid. The more I hear stupid, the more I will hear ideas. And so if you're in a process with other people, and any idea, any idea, dumb, stupid, wrong, any one of those words you want to attach to it, is a step to the next idea, which isn't. You've got to get stupid before you get smart."

Barry Diller: 那是很久以前的事了。我不知道是谁说的，但我深以为然，非常真实。有人说了一句话，另一个人说：“嗯，那很蠢。”那个人回答说：“我就是要蠢。我听到的‘蠢’越多，我就会听到越多的想法。所以，如果你和别人一起工作，任何想法，任何愚蠢的、错误的、随便你用什么词来形容的想法，都是通往下一个（不那么愚蠢的）想法的台阶。你必须先变得‘蠢’，才能变得聪明。”

离开福克斯：追求独立的二元选择

Host: You never feared failure because you had one primary fear most of your life which made it easier for you to eliminate other fears. Yet one of the things that stood out in the book was you had this contradiction. You struggled with this decision to leave Fox and start your own thing. Can you explore the tension there between what was the fear going into that?

主持人: 您从不害怕失败，因为您一生中有一个主要的恐惧，这让您更容易消除其他恐惧。然而，书中有一个矛盾之处令我印象深刻。您在离开福克斯并自立门户的决定上挣扎了很久。您能谈谈这其中的矛盾和您当时的恐惧吗？

Barry Diller: I'd been working in companies since I was 19. That was 30 years later. I was 49. I'd been a very good corporatist. I had run two movie companies and incredibly successful in the world that I was in. And yet I yearned for something that was my own. And it wasn't mine. I mean, I worked for large enterprises. And I think any good employee believes and acts like it's theirs. But that's a delusion. It isn't theirs. It's someone else's. And that struck me and sat with me once I'd realized that I had this yearn for independence. I was very comfortable. I was, as I said, you couldn't be more successful than I was at that time. We created the fourth network. The Simpsons, like you had a very successful movie company, etc., etc. But it wasn't mine, and I thought, "Well, what am I going to do about that?" And I came up with this thing in my brain, and I couldn't get it out of my brain, which was either you are or you're not. It's 二元选择 (binary choice: 只有两种可能结果的决策), and you can do what most executives do, which is you rationalize and you, you know, you live a pretty good life. So you rationalize your situation, or you just say, "Well, this is what it is," and you don't have any yearn to be independent or on your own. I did, and I knew that that was binary, and it just kept at me. It wasn't that I was afraid. It was I didn't want to confront the very binariness of it, because on the other side of not being a corporatist or being on your own or being independent or wanting to build something yourself is that you are very far away from the mother church. You really are on your own. And while it didn't frighten me, it was like such a different solar system that I couldn't even conceive of it other than in these terms of "you are or you're not." And I couldn't accept that I was not. And that's what got me out. It was my inability to accept that. And so I left Fox and had no clue what I was going to do.

Barry Diller: 我从19岁起就在公司工作。那已是30年后，我当时49岁。我是一个非常称职的职业经理人。我曾管理两家电影公司，并且在我所处的那个世界里取得了惊人的成功。然而，我渴望拥有属于自己的东西。但那不是我的。我的意思是，我为大型企业工作。我认为任何优秀的员工都会相信并表现得好像那是他们的。但那是一种错觉。那不是他们的。那是别人的。当我意识到自己有这种独立的渴望时，这个想法就深深地印在我的脑海中。我当时非常安逸。正如我所说，你不可能比我当时更成功了。我们创建了第四个电视网络，《辛普森一家》等等，你拥有一家非常成功的电影公司。但那不是我的，我想，“嗯，我该怎么办？”我的脑海中浮现了一个念头，挥之不去，那就是“要么你是，要么你不是”。这是一个 二元选择 (Binary Choice: 只有两种可能结果的决策)，你可以像大多数高管那样，进行合理化解释，你知道，你过着相当不错的生活。所以你合理化自己的处境，或者你只是说：“嗯，就是这样了”，你并没有渴望独立或自立。但我有，我知道那是一个二元选择，它一直困扰着我。我并不是害怕。我只是不想面对它的二元性，因为不做一个职业经理人，或者自立门户，或者独立，或者想自己建立一些东西的另一面是，你将远离“母教堂”。你真的要靠自己了。虽然这并没有吓到我，但那就像一个完全不同的星系，除了“你是或你不是”这些术语之外，我甚至无法想象它。我无法接受我“不是”。这就是我离开的原因。是我无法接受这一点。所以我离开了福克斯，完全不知道自己要做什么。

薪酬哲学：风险与回报，重视增长与机会

Host: So up until that point, you had been on the receiving end of a lot of these compensation agreements, and now you're setting them for your CEOs. How do you think about that? Do you have a different approach than others, or how do you think about incentives and ownership?

主持人: 所以在那之前，您一直在接受这些薪酬协议，现在您要为您的首席执行官们制定薪酬协议。您对此有何看法？您是否有与众不同的方法，或者您如何看待激励和所有权？

Barry Diller: I believe in risk and reward, and I believe if you take risks, and if you're doing any valuable work, you're going to be taking risks. If it works out, the rewards should be there, and we now and always have hope, always will compensate people accordingly. People can't gain wealth in the enterprises that I'm involved in. Something's wrong with the enterprise. So, I'm about wanting people to give people the opportunity to create real wealth with unlimited upside for it.

Barry Diller: 我相信风险和回报，我相信如果你承担风险，并且如果你正在做任何有价值的工作，你就会承担风险。如果成功了，回报就应该在那里，我们现在以及将来都会相应地补偿人们。在我参与的企业中，人们如果无法获得财富，那企业本身肯定出了问题。所以，我希望给人们创造真正财富的机会，而且这种财富的增长空间是无限的。

Host: How do you think about that? Can you walk me through an example of sort of like how you think about the principles of compensation and alignment and base salary and sort of incentives?

主持人: 您对此有何看法？您能给我举个例子，说明您是如何考虑薪酬、对齐、基本工资和激励等原则的吗？

Barry Diller: I think generally, compensation that is stock-based is not the best route. It depends, again, it's a broad general statement for developed enterprises. It's not the best route. The best route is, to me, a much simpler one. If you create value working in a project where you create value, to whatever degree you created, you should share in that value on a cash basis. Meaning any time period, a year, just take every year if the enterprise does well, you should have a share of how well it does paid to you at that moment. What I have learned is that most people—you think that giving large populations options in the company's securities, that they would hold on to them, and what you find out is 80-90% the first moment that they vest, they cash them. So, I don't know, I've got a lot of endless thoughts about that that bore the hell out of everyone.

Barry Diller: 我认为，通常情况下，基于股票的薪酬并不是最好的途径。这再次取决于具体情况，对于成熟的企业来说，这是一个普遍性的说法。这不是最好的途径。对我来说，最好的途径要简单得多。如果你在一个项目中创造了价值，无论你创造了多大程度的价值，你都应该以现金形式分享这部分价值。这意味着在任何时间段，比如一年，就每年来说，如果企业表现良好，你都应该在当下获得其业绩表现的一部分。我学到的是，大多数人——你以为给广大员工公司证券期权，他们会一直持有，但你发现，80%-90%的人在期权归属的第一个时刻就会兑现。所以，我不知道，我对这方面有很多无休止的想法，这些想法会让每个人都厌烦透顶。

Host: Well, they won't bore me. I'm really curious about it actually, because, you know, stock-based compensation is, it distorts a lot of the economics of the business, and people think that it incentivizes or retains people when you've had no problem.

主持人: 嗯，它们不会让我感到无聊。我其实对此非常好奇，因为你知道，基于股票的薪酬会扭曲很多业务经济学，而且人们认为它能激励或留住员工，而您在这方面从未遇到过问题。

Barry Diller: I don't believe, by the way, I also—I've heard retention arguments from time immemorial, decades of, "Well, we do this to retain people." I think that's ridiculous. To retain people, people stay in your enterprise because they like what they do, and there's opportunity there. A handcuff, so to speak, or they stay because they haven't vested in this or that. I think that's hogwash. I don't believe in retention. I believe in opportunity.

Barry Diller: 顺便说一句，我也不相信——我从远古时代，几十年以来，一直听到关于留住人才的说法，比如“我们这样做是为了留住员工”。我认为那很荒谬。要留住员工，人们留在你的企业是因为他们喜欢他们所做的工作，并且那里有机会。所谓的“手铐”，或者说他们留下是因为他们还没有获得这个或那个的归属权。我认为那都是胡扯。我不相信留住人才。我相信机会。

Host: I like the idea of sort of participating in the success of the organization. How do you think about it as a new CEO coming in maybe to a mature business, and do you set the compensation based on above baseline for next year, or how do you think about that?

主持人: 我喜欢这种参与组织成功的想法。您如何看待一位新任首席执行官进入一个可能已成熟的企业，您会根据明年高于基线的表现来设定薪酬吗，或者您对此有何看法？

Barry Diller: You certainly, if you have an ongoing business, you're really compensating people for growth. I mean, other than base tasks that need to be performed. You want growth. If people can provide you with growth, you should give them a share of that growth. If they want to be an owner, they can take their cash compensation and then go buy stock. Yes, absolutely. Give them their resources and let them go do it. But the wealth you can create for them, it should be based upon what they do and what they produce.

Barry Diller: 如果你经营着一家持续发展的企业，那么你确实是在为人们的成长支付报酬。我的意思是，除了需要完成的基本任务之外。你希望获得成长。如果人们能为你带来成长，你就应该分享那份成长。如果他们想成为所有者，他们可以拿走他们的现金报酬，然后去购买股票。是的，绝对如此。给他们资源，让他们去做。但你能为他们创造的财富，应该基于他们所做的事情和他们所产出的成果。

Host: Have you ever lost anybody ever because you wouldn't give stock options?

主持人: 您是否因为不提供股票期权而失去过任何人才？

Barry Diller: No, I don't think so. See, people might say yes, but I don't think so. One of my friends had a clever idea because he doesn't give stock options. So when he was recruiting people, they were like, "We're walking away from all these options." And he's like, "I'll give you the exact same options at the company you're leaving, but I'm not going to give you options in the company you're coming to." That's a good idea. I like that.

Barry Diller: 不，我不认为有。看，人们可能会说是，但我不这么认为。我的一个朋友有个聪明的想法，因为他不给股票期权。所以当他招聘人员时，他们会说：“我们正在放弃所有这些期权。”他就会说：“我给你和你离开的公司一模一样的期权，但我不会给你来到我公司后的期权。”这个主意不错。我喜欢。

“时钟开始倒计时”原则：责任的起点

Host: One of the moments that really stuck out in your book, you had this core principle, and you said that "the clock starts ticking the moment you're made aware of the incident." From that second, you're responsible for the actions. And I think you hit on that in relation to two of your marketing people who were stealing from you. Can you tell me that story, and sort of what happened and what the realization was?

主持人: 您的书中有一个让我印象深刻的时刻，您提出了一个核心原则，您说“当你得知事件的那一刻起，时钟就开始倒计时了。”从那一秒起，您就对后续行动负责。我想您在谈到两位营销人员从您那里偷窃时，也提到了这一点。您能给我讲讲那个故事吗，以及发生了什么，还有您从中领悟到了什么？

Barry Diller: It was my first exposure to something like that where we found out that two of our key executives had been stealing. And one of my colleagues said, "You know, we can bury this." Another of my colleagues said, "Well, actually, one of the people who did this, they threatened you very directly, kind of blackmail and saying if you expose this or if you report this to the authorities, we'll do this terribly damaging thing, which was so heinous to me." But what I realized, and it is a great lesson for me—presuming you run a straight organization, meaning in other words, presuming you're not engaged in nefarious stuff—but if something happens, and it doesn't necessarily have to be somebody stealing, it could be one of your products has some antisocial thing that you discover, or somebody in your organization has just done something that is unethical. Whatever it is, and so long as you're running a general like you have checks and balances up until that moment that you know it, you have no issue with culpability, you have no agency, you have no nothing. But the second you know it, the clock is ticking, and you have to have that in your brain. You have to know that every second after that, what you do about that is now your absolute responsibility. I have a word bubble above my head about it, but it is a great discipline. And I've seen so many situations where that was not recognized, where procrastination or other methods, where you're not aware that that clock ticks, and every action you take is then your actions. Before that, you got no fault.

Barry Diller: 那是我第一次遇到类似的事情，我们发现我们两位重要的行政人员一直在偷窃。我的一位同事说：“你知道，我们可以把这件事掩盖掉。”我的另一位同事说：“嗯，实际上，其中一个做这件事的人，他们直接威胁你，有点像勒索，说如果你揭露此事或向当局举报，他们就会做出非常有害的事情，这对我来说是如此令人发指。”但我意识到，这对我来说是一个重要的教训——假设你经营一个正直的组织，换句话说，假设你没有参与任何不法之事——但如果发生了什么事情，不一定是有人偷窃。可能是你的某个产品被发现有某种反社会的东西，或者你组织里的某个人做了不道德的事情。无论是什么，只要你像往常一样运行着一个有制衡机制的组织，直到你得知这件事的那一刻，你都没有任何责任，没有任何处理权，什么都没有。但当你得知此事的那一刻，时钟就开始倒计时了，你必须牢记这一点。你必须知道，从那一刻起，你对这件事所做的每一个决定，现在都是你绝对的责任。我脑海中有一个关于这件事的“词语气泡”，但它是一个很好的自律原则。我看到过太多情况，人们没有意识到这一点，拖延或其他方法，人们没有意识到那个时钟正在倒计时，然后你所采取的每一个行动都是你的责任。在此之前，你没有任何过错。

公平原则：媒体责任的缺失

Host: I want to come to public broadcasting for a second. One of the things that I don't see getting enough attention that you wrote about was the Fairness Doctrine. I'm wondering if you can explain what that is and what the impacts been in getting rid of it.

主持人: 我想暂时谈谈公共广播。您在书中提到了一项未受到足够关注的原则，那就是“公平原则”。我想知道您能否解释一下那是什么，以及废除它带来了什么影响。

Barry Diller: Well, the Fairness Doctrine (公平原则: 曾要求广播公司在有争议的公共事务上公平呈现不同观点的政策) was a fundamental tenet of broadcasting, which meant that you had to, in any dissemination of anything, you had to present, if there were two sides to an argument, you had to present them fairly. You had to be fair in your presentation. And this was, along with a lot of other regulation, thrown out some time ago, and I think it is very unfortunate for the common weal, as they say. Meaning that that proviso for broadcasters—and the fact that they still are, but they were licensed because they were using the public airways [that] belong to the public. And so you felt a responsibility, if you were in that world, to do the right thing. And we can define "right" in all sorts of different ways, but we all know what the mainstream of right is to a very large degree. That's kind of been tossed, and I think it's just very unfortunate.

Barry Diller: 嗯，公平原则 (Fairness Doctrine: 曾要求广播公司在有争议的公共事务上公平呈现不同观点的政策) 是广播业的一项基本原则，这意味着在传播任何信息时，如果一个论点有两面，你必须公平地呈现它们。你的呈现必须公平。这项原则以及许多其他法规在一段时间前被废除了，我认为这对所谓的公共福祉非常不幸。这意味着，广播公司曾经被赋予的这项规定——以及他们现在仍然被授权，但他们之所以获得许可，是因为他们使用的是属于公众的公共广播频率。所以，如果你身处那个行业，你会感到有责任去做正确的事情。我们当然可以用各种不同的方式来定义“正确”，但在很大程度上，我们都知道主流的“正确”是什么。这项原则现在已经被抛弃了，我认为这非常不幸。

当今媒体格局：信息、虚假信息与信任危机

Host: How do you think about the media landscape today in terms of information, disinformation, and how it's all playing out with people?

主持人: 您如何看待当今的媒体格局，就信息、虚假信息以及它们如何影响大众而言？

Barry Diller: Oh my god. I mean, we're in a very difficult period about information, about facts. There is so much from our leadership that is not based on facts, is not true. It's promotional or it's just outright not factual. And we hear this thing about "fake news," principally by people who are faking news. Not always, of course. And listen, I hate the far right as much as I hate the, you know, the woke left is as horrible as the woke right, or woke right is whatever. Say it any way you like. But we have lost a central fact-based method for the dissemination of, call it, news, broadly speaking. And this is—every bird brain knows this. Most of the talkers are talking essentially to themselves and to their audience, reinforcing what they think, which is not necessarily factual. Wherever you are in the spectrum, the biggest issue we have is having faith and belief in information, and that's—that's—that's a sorry state, and there are some trusted sources, relatively few.

Barry Diller: 天哪。我的意思是，我们正处于一个关于信息、关于事实的非常困难的时期。我们的领导层有很多言论不是基于事实，不是真实的。它们要么是宣传，要么就是完全不符合事实。而且我们听到这种关于“假新闻”的说法，主要来自那些制造假新闻的人。当然，并非总是如此。听着，我痛恨极右翼，就像我痛恨那些，你知道的，觉醒左翼和觉醒右翼一样糟糕，或者觉醒右翼是什么鬼。随你怎么说。但我们已经失去了一种基于事实的核心新闻传播方式，广义上讲。而且这是——每个笨蛋都知道。大多数谈话者基本上是在自言自语，并向他们的听众讲话，强化他们自己的想法，而这些想法不一定是事实。无论你处于光谱的哪个位置，我们面临的最大问题是，对信息失去信心和信任，那是一种可悲的状态，而且值得信赖的来源相对较少。

成功的定义：保持好奇

Host: We always end these interviews with the same question, Barry, which is, what is success for you?

主持人: 巴里，我们总是以同样的问题结束这些采访，那就是：对您而言，成功是什么？

Barry Diller: Well, success for me is remaining curious. The only thing that drives me is my curiosity, and if I'm curious, then that is success.

Barry Diller: 嗯，对我来说，成功就是保持好奇。唯一驱动我的就是我的好奇心，如果我保持好奇，那么那就是成功。

Host: I love that answer. Thank you very much for the time today.

主持人: 我喜欢这个回答。非常感谢您今天抽出时间。

Barry Diller: Nice to be with you.

Barry Diller: 很高兴和您在一起。

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