Host: Back in 1995, the honorable Jean Augustine, the first black woman elected to Parliament, stood up in the House of Commons and made a pretty straightforward request. Recognized February as Black History Month across Canada. The motion passed unanimously, and years later she told TVO about what was really driving that push.

Jean Augustine (quoted): I felt that at some point in time, someone had to address curriculum, that things should not be in the footnote along the margins, but should be integrated into the teaching of Canadian history.

Host: More than 30 years on, has her vision been realised? Premier Doug Ford recently announced that new black history courses, originally meant to roll out last year, will now be coming to Ontario schools this September. We're going to look at what these courses will mean and what experts say still needs to be done. We're also stepping outside of the classroom because history doesn't just exist in textbooks. We're taking you to Salem Chapel in St. Catharines, where Harriet Tubman once worshipped, and where the Underground Railroad and the fight for civil rights left a very real mark. Welcome to "The Rundown." Ontario's Ministry of Education recently announced plans to introduce new courses on black history for grades seven, eight and ten this coming September. So let's talk about how black history is covered in classrooms now and what's set to change. Natasha, I'm going to start with you. Why is including Black Canadian contributions to the history curriculum important?

Natasha: It's very important because it presents a more accurate history of Canada. It really locates people of African descent within this project that we call Canada and its evolution, its growth over time and again, really then helps people to understand that we've been here for a very long time, 400 years, alongside European colonisation.

Host: Greg, many people will say black history is Canadian history. Why do you think it's important that we add these contributions to our history curriculum?

Greg: It's interesting you just said part of what I was going to say, and I think, I think the idea of teaching history without incorporating voices is, is a challenge. I encourage my students to understand that part of what we do in teaching history is unlearning. You can't learn until you unlearn. And I think part of the problem that we faced with over the last how many decades is putting ourselves in a situation where we can actually learn true history and understand that there have been voices that haven't been heard for so long, and those voices need to be a part of our Canadian narrative.

Host: As we know, the curriculum was slated to roll out last year but was delayed until September 2026. Now, some critics say that the pause was a reflection of political discomfort with progressive curriculum content. I want to get both of your takes on it, Natasha. What do you think?

Natasha: Well, we can read that in several ways. Yes, you can read it, as you know and wonder, is it because of some level of discomfort, given the wider political climate of the time? Or we can also take a step back and think that maybe and hopefully that the ministry wants to produce something of high quality, which requires more time for the review process to gather feedback to implement, you know, any material that they receive from experts. And so, you know, I'm hoping in the second stream that that there will be something produced of high quality and that they needed the time in order to do so.

Host: Now, Greg, before I come to you, I should mention that Minister Calandra did mention that the pause was necessary for both to allow for the introduction of more consistent, province wide approach to the curriculum, but also to, as you mentioned, to ensure teachers can have the time they need to properly implement that in their classroom. As someone who is in the classroom, you know that when curriculum is given to you, when there's changes, time is needed as well. But what are your thoughts about sort of that pause and sort of the reasoning?

Greg: I think I'd echo what Natasha said earlier as well. I think the pause potentially, or I'd like to think that the pause was done with the intention of equipping educators with the proper resources. I think the unfortunate reality is most black educators approach black history, Black History Month with excitement, but also with a little bit of trepidation. I think the reality is, is that when we collectively, as black educators, become the source of knowledge, it's almost like we have to be the ones telling the story. And telling the story can be traumatic. So I think I'd like to think that this pause maybe gives a necessary opportunity to ensure that all teachers can have access to resources so that it's not about saying, hey, what was your experience like? Because that happens all the time, and there are a lot of students who experience that trauma when there might be the only ones in the class, and the teacher looks at them and says, hey, by the way, what's your experience like being a black Canadian? It's hard. It's really hard.

Natasha: Yes. And I would just add to that to say, you know, with the pause, it's the pause for the actual release of what the learning topics will be, and that in that interim, there are also curating and developing some resources. And then once those are rolled out, then there should be some training. And you talked about, you know, black teachers who have, you know, for a long time, you know, been consistent in teaching black history. And there has been an unevenness. And I think there's also an important thing to think about that teachers require more training, especially when the teaching population is majority white, that there will be, as you had said before, a lot of unlearning and new learning that would need to take place for educators in order for them to bring this to the classroom.

Host: Definitely. Alright. Let's talk about what's being taught right now in the classroom. Greg, how would you assess how black history is currently taught in Ontario schools?

Greg: I can only speak to my high school experience. Again, I didn't need someone to mandate or place in front of me the expectation of teaching black history.

Host: And what do you teach? Let's clarify.

Greg: So I teach grade ten Canadian history, and I also teach a social justice course at the grade 12 level as well. And so incorporating black history into these lessons, I think it's crucial if we are only talking about the black narrative from a trauma based perspective or from a what is them perspective, then we don't necessarily get the true history of the contributions of Black Canadians to the over 400 years. You talk to many kids and they'll tell you about the Underground Railroad. Our journey didn't begin with the Underground Railroad. I think that's important that we acknowledge that, and we give educators the opportunity to have that narrative a part of our story.

Host: I am curious, I want to be in your classroom right now, sitting amongst your students. What are you teaching me?

Greg: You know what I'm teaching you to hear? The voices that haven't been heard. I'm teaching you an opportunity to recognize that we currently, in today's day and age, are a part of history. And our story goes far back. I tell my students all the time that everyone, unless you're a member of our First Nation, Métis and Inuit population, has an immigration story. And I think that immigration story is what makes Canada a true nation, a nation of builders.

Host: Natasha. So let's go back. How would you assess how black history is currently being taught in Ontario schools?

Natasha: Well, I would say that it's very uneven for a variety of reasons from, for example, the view that they're teaching black history should be taught focusing on the student population. And so if you have a black presence in your school, then you can teach black history. But if you don't have a black presence then there's no need to. And that is a very myopic view of teaching black history, because as we've talked about before, black Canadian history is Canadian history. There's also a way in which black, the black Canadian experience is often used to prop up the wider, the dominant Canadian narrative. So in fact, there isn't a focus on black history, on black individuals, on black communities. It's used in a way to, for example, glorify Canada as a place of freedom for freedom seekers during the Underground Railroad era. And but we never learn or they never delve into who those individuals were, what their experiences were like. And so there's that and there's also a concern or some level of trepidation around addressing the realities of structural barriers that Canadian society imposed upon black people and how they responded to and reacted and helped to change that. And so there is a level of discomfort there. And then one last thing I would say is that the framing of who black Canada was and over 400 years, there are different ways, you know, forced migration under chattel slavery, immigration, but also that black people are diverse in their experiences and their origins, and that oftentimes people don't name black Canadians as black Canadians, but often as African Americans, which is another thing that we have to we still have a long way to go.

Host: I want to get into sort of the the curriculums. Grades are specific seven, eight and ten. Help us understand, is this being covered adequately in primary and junior grades? I'm Natasha.

Natasha: Sure. Well, no very simple answer in the sense that, you know, ideally there would be specific expectations woven into or integrated throughout the curriculum. Grades seven, eight and ten. The rationale for choosing that is that that's when there's a focus on the actual subject of history. And so from grades 1 to 6 is social studies. And then seven, eight and then ten are the grades in which there are specific history subjects that are taught. And so that would be the rationale for selecting those grades.

Host: Is there an opportunity there?

Natasha: Absolutely, absolutely. There's opportunities throughout I've been teaching. You know, this is my area of expertise. I've been teaching from kinder garden through to now, university, and there's ample opportunities to integrate Black Canadian history throughout.

Host: Now, Greg, by the time they get to you in grade ten, for some people, perhaps they only have what you mentioned, the Underground Railroad as an example of of black history. Should black history be mandated in primary grades as well? Is there an opportunity?

Greg: I would completely agree with Natasha. I think the challenge that we face is not necessarily locating black history in history. I think we believe that when you teach history, it has to be in a history course. But let's be serious. When we talk about the contributions of black Canadians, it's not just in the areas of history, it's science and technology. It's in medicine, it's in literature, it's in politics. So why are we just locating a curriculum in a course that just says it's a history course? Why aren't we doing this in the sciences? Why aren't we doing this in the maths? Why aren't we doing? Again, we talk about learning and unlearning. There are a lot of names that we learn as mathematicians, as scientists, and we learn them as the source of, well, this is who created this. And well, let's, let's, let's pull back a couple layers now and really look.

Host: Well, with that being said, Natasha, I have to ask who gets to decide on what to include and what not to or exclude from the history?

Natasha: And that's a very good question. Curriculum is policy, right? And so that it's the Ministry of Education. Who's responsible for designated that with the support and direction of classroom teachers, experts in various fields, as well as input from community members. And there's a feedback process depending on which stage of the curriculum it's in. And you can have that back and forth. And then the ultimate decision in terms of what is produced and dispensed to classroom teachers is the is the Ministry of Education.

Host: Greg, as someone who's in the classroom, are you part of these consultations as well?

Greg: It's interesting. I think you really hit that triad. You talk about government, you talk about educators, and you talk about community partners in that that feedback process. I personally have not been a part of that process. I'm not saying that other education educators haven't, but I would really like to see that active process really be a little more transparent so that if you are an educator and you are interested in this and you can be a part of it, then you should be. But you're right, it is policy. And at the end of the day, all those parties need to be able to come together to integrate effectively.

Host: Natasha, what would you say is the biggest roadblock to changing the curriculum for broader representation of history?

Natasha: The biggest roadblock is is will right on different levels. And so whether it's at the Ministry of Education level, because there's never been one thing that all students in Ontario have to learn about the 400 year presence of black people in Canada, it's always been an option by individual teachers and principals, you know, families. And so you need to have the will at that level and the consistency as well as school board levels and and in the classroom as well. To see again that, yes, it's good that it becomes part of the official curriculum, but just by the nature of wanting to represent a truthful history of Canada, that the black narrative should be included.

Host: Greg.

Greg: I would say there are two major roadblocks. Number one is misconception. I think misconception is huge when it comes to understanding how we implement curriculum. This idea of of whose story is being told and how is that story being told. I think we also have this idea of I don't know enough. And so when you talk about individual choice, if I was teaching math and I didn't know enough about quadratics, I'd learn if I was teaching chemistry and I didn't know enough about Boyle's law, I'd learn. But I think we allow individuals to say, I don't know enough, and that excuses them from having to implement certain ideas. When you look at misconception, the pushback when you had the renaming of John Macdonald's schools, people believe that, well, when you rename a school, what you're doing is you're rewriting history. We're not rewriting history. We're just trying to pull back more layers to allow true history to be to be to be told.

Host: I do want to ask if you had the minister, Paul Calandra, sitting across from us at this table, what would you tell him about sort of the broader editions of of black history to our curriculum and sort of those roadblocks that you bring up?

Natasha: Well, I would say that this is a long overdue step based on decades of advocacy from black parents, community members, educators, and that we should see it not as the ultimate step, but as one step of several that needs to be taken in order to continuously and to better represent. History is one subject, but as Greg has mentioned earlier, that there needs to be integration and recognition in all subject areas.

Host: Greg.

Greg: You know, we've often heard the broader the base, the taller the tower, and I think it's very important. Foundations are huge, first steps are good, but we have to be intentional in making sure that we're not just doing this to check a box. We're doing this to be intentional about how we move forward. There has to be a long term plan.

Host: Alright. And the last few minutes that we have, I want to know what is your favorite not widely known piece of black history? Natasha.

Natasha: That's a very hard question for me. I would say that I've, for the past few years been focusing quite a bit more on black history in Ontario, and I'm amazed to continuously learn about black people being all across the province. We often think about like the black communities in Chatham and Windsor and in major cities like Toronto, but black people since the 1800s have resided and lived in all places in northern mines and, you know, in a range of places. But for me, I think that that's something that's quite interesting.

Host: Geography. Well, okay. Greg, interesting.

Greg: I try to do a task with my students that encourage them to investigate communities. And I, I go to Montreal and the idea of we all connect jazz to the United States. But the jazz scene in Montreal has been rich for years. And you get an individual like Rufus Rockhead, you know, a Jamaican immigrant who comes here defies many odds and becomes the source of jazz in Montreal, even to the point where during prohibition, during the Great Depression, where nothing was really happening south of the border, all of the greats were coming here the Billie Holiday, the Sammy Davis Jr, the Louis Armstrong, they were all coming to Montreal. And it's just it's a vibrant, you know, little Burgundy. Right. Vibrant communities that we have here for sure.

Host: Very interesting. Alright. In honour of Black History Month, we asked each of you to recommend one resource for our viewers and listeners. Natasha, you were doing something cool at the Archives of Ontario. Tell us about Illuminate Black, the exhibition.

Natasha: Working with. I'm curating an exhibit called Illuminate Black shining a light on the black presence in Ontario, working with Blue Rhino Design. This exhibit is going to be opening up at the end of this month, and we'll be running for two years at the Archives of Ontario. Just giving a wonderful overview of lesser known stories of black history in Ontario.

Host: Greg.

Greg: There's a series of black series produced by Sid Sutherland and Jennifer Holmes, and it is a great four part docu series that really we talk about the 400 years, and it really tells the history, it tells the story, the unknown stories of the Black Canadian experience beyond the stereotypical Underground railroad. And it really documents time and place, and it gives both a historical, a social commentary, but also looks at geography and the role that different locations from coast to coast have played in really cultivating a strong black Canadian presence.

Host: And that's black and origin story origin. Alright Natasha Greg, that was fantastic. Thank you so much for your insights.

Natasha: Thank you very much, Greg.

Host: I'm standing in front of a small building with a big history. This is Salem Chapel in St. Catharines, Ontario. Many people believe this church is the oldest black church in Ontario. It was built in 1855, but its congregation dates back to 1814. Its most famous member, Harriet Tubman, who lived in the area in the mid 19th century. From here, the Underground Railroad conductor organised rescue missions and many of those she rescued ended up settling here, becoming church members. So let's find out more about this place of worship and activism.

Rochelle Bush: My name is Rochelle Bush. I'm the trustee as well as resident historian of the Salem Chapel, British Methodist Episcopal Church, Harriet Tubman Underground Railroad National Historic Site. I'm also the owner and operator of Tubman Tours, Canada. Welcome to the Salem Chapel.

Host: Rochelle, thank you so much for having us here at the Salem Chapel. We are sitting in a place that has a lot of history. Can you tell me why this place is so special to this area?

Rochelle Bush: Well, the Salem Chapel was built by African American freedom seekers in 1855. So it's a part of the British Methodist Episcopal Churches of Canada. And actually, it's the third site in the city of St. Catharines. The first one was constructed in Queenston Street area. We know it as Richard Pierpoint Park area, and he was the first black person to settle in St. Catharines. So the first one was constructed around 1820. We were relocated over to this neighbourhood 1835. We built the second church, and then 1855 we built this third church.

Host: So in terms of this place right now, it's quiet. It is very calm as we were sitting in silence here. But this is a very active church. There is still worship that happens here, correct?

Rochelle Bush: Yes. So we still continue as a religious institution first and foremost. So we meet every Sunday for worship service. It is an active church, but we have less than a dozen members.

Host: And as everyone welcome here.

Rochelle Bush: Oh, the church today is very diverse. So not all members are freedom seeker descendants like myself. And we do have white members as well.

Host: I want to now talk about the congregation of the past. It's most famous parishioner. Who was it?

Rochelle Bush: Harriet Tubman.

Host: Tell me about it.

Rochelle Bush: So Harriet Tubman is our most famous member. So Tubman was a freedom fighter in the 19th century. She helped liberate enslaved African Americans. And she guided them here to St. Catharines. Today, she is regarded as the iconic figure of the Underground Railroad. And what's most important about Harriet Tubman is she's the first person African American to be designated a person of national importance in two countries in Canada, as well as the United States.

Host: Her journey from the south up here sometimes is in question as to where she ended up. Can you walk me through that journey? How did she get to St. Catharines and why St. Catharines?

Rochelle Bush: So Harriet Tubman was born in Dorchester County, Maryland, and she escaped from enslavement in 1849 and made her way to Philadelphia. After the U.S. government passed the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act, she had to extend her Underground Railroad route to British soil. So this was a British colony at the time, of course. And this is where African Americans would be granted or guaranteed their safety and freedom, because the North, after the 1850 Fugitive Slave Law passed, that was turned into a haven for slave catchers. So the network of people that she was connected with in Philadelphia, they were already connected with abolitionists here in St. Catharines. So she came out of the eastern shore along the eastern line and ended here because St. Catharines, according to Frederick Douglass, in 1881, this was the last stop for the Underground Railroad from the eastern line.

Host: Well, I want to talk about Frederick Douglass. He worshipped here as well. This was a place where there were meetings that were happening. Tell me about his significance and his history here in this building.

Rochelle Bush: So we have Frederick Douglass on record coming through St. Catharines nine times. And as a member of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. So let's be real. In the 19th century, religion was your currency. So you attended service. So this was a safe space for African Americans. And if he was in St. Catharines, then he would have worshipped here because he was already Methodist. But that would not have negated the fact that he may have went down to Zion Baptist Church, which was a Baptist church as well.

Host: You actually have a very special connection, a family connection to this chapel. Tell me about that.

Rochelle Bush: Yes. So my connection to the Salem Chapel is my two times great grandfather on my maternal side. So my mother's side was the minister in charge here for a period of time when Harriet Tubman was here. So he was an African Methodist Episcopal minister, free, born in Columbia, South Carolina. And then he made his way here to Canada, settled in St. Catharines, and became a member and minister of this church.

Host: So great great, great, two great two greats. Oh, wow. In terms of that knowledge and knowing that family connection, how was that told to you? How did you know? Was that something that you went on a personal journey or was that.

Rochelle Bush: That's a great question. And yes, I did go on a personal journey. We were always told that he was part of the Underground Railroad 2005. It just didn't make sense to me as to why he could be travelling all over the place. So in Ontario as well as Michigan, Kentucky, New York City, because they were stump preachers at the time, missionaries as well. Turns out he was a free black man, so that's how he was able to do it. He wasn't part of the Underground Railroad.

Host: Very interesting. Tubman tours Canada. Yes, adding Canada at the end. Was that a deliberate move?

Rochelle Bush: Yes, it was a deliberate move. So I added Canada at the end of the tour company name so that people would be aware of the fact that she did have a connection to Canada. Most people have no idea. So I was going to say Tubman Tours Ontario. But then I thought, you know what, let's broaden it out, make it Canada. But then after that, I had people asking, where did she go in Canada? And I just ignored it.

Host: Fair enough. Where do people think that she she went?

Rochelle Bush: Most don't know. And those who do assume that she came to Canada, they think Nova Scotia.

Host: Why?

Rochelle Bush: Because that's where history records that the majority of African Americans went during the American Revolution. So everybody knows about African Americans going to Nova Scotia. The book was most famous for that, The Book of Negroes, written by Lawrence Hill.

Host: I want to understand the people who come through this building. Are they mostly Canadian or are they American?

Rochelle Bush: So the majority of people that come and take the tour here at Salem Chapel are Americans. But we've seen a decline for that this past summer only because of what's taking place in the United States. With the tariffs, people losing their employment positions. So there has been a decline.

Host: Does that scare you in terms of keeping some a place like this with historical significance open?

Rochelle Bush: Yes, it does scare me only because we rely on American tourism dollars as a lot of these sites do. So if it's a heritage site or a cultural site, you want U.S. tourism dollars because they're going to visit maybe once every five years, but they're going to visit in large numbers. And when I say large numbers, I mean maybe ten groups from Missouri, maybe ten from South Carolina, whereas if it's Canadian, we may get a motorcoach group coming from Toronto once every five years. So for Canadians, those coming from, say, the Owen Sound area, it's a one tank trip for them. A lot will come here, but then they're on their way to Niagara Falls as well.

Host: With that being said, you are starting to see an influx of Canadians, particularly high school students. I want to know when students leave this place.

Rochelle Bush: Harriet Tubman.

Host: The most of Salem Chapel. What's one thing you want them to take with.

Rochelle Bush: Them when the students leave Salem Chapel? I want them to understand that black Canadians so early, black Canadians beginning from our arrival and in this area we're looking at 1780, helped contribute to the construction or the development of Canada of this great nation. And we all know it were written out of the history books. So a lot of people don't even know about our existence. And not just black Canadians, other ethnic groups as well. But that's what we want to take away, to be how important we are to this country and our value. Of course.

Host: Rochelle is very clear that you're very passionate about this, even just talking about your family connection tears in your eyes a little bit. Why do you do what you do?

Rochelle Bush: I do what I do to keep the history alive, because if there's nobody here to do it and I'm not going to lie, okay, I'm going to put it right out on the table if I'm not here to do it, or no other black folks are here to do it that know and understand our history from an old guard way than who's telling our story. It becomes a white narrative, or it becomes someone else's narrative. So that's the sad part.

Host: Rochelle, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time.

Rochelle Bush: Thank you. Thank you for considering us.

Host: What do you like or not like about what we're doing so far? Send us your feedback at tvo.org/rundownfeedback or leave us a comment on Youtube. Until then, see you tomorrow. Tomorrow on "The Rundown."

Natasha: We hear them saying all the time like they have their experts. They're tapping in and we're offering our voice because we know our communities need to be heard. And so really, right now, we don't know what it's going to look like. Some of the main concerns are around the support offices, the family support and student offices, how they're going to run, what they're going to look like. There's been discussion about the role of trustees. There's been discussion of community policing officers in schools. There's a number of those issues that we just when we don't have information, people get afraid.

Host: That's tomorrow on "The Rundown."