Michael Barbaro: From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past decade,

Michael Barbaro: the Tate brothers have built a global empire around pornography, hyper-masculinity, and overt misogyny. Even as they were repeatedly accused of assaulting and trafficking women. Today, a Times investigation has found that as their troubles mounted, the Tates found powerful allies in the Trump family and the Trump administration. My colleague, Megan Twohey, explains just how important those alliances became and why they're now starting to unravel. It's Monday, August 3rd. Megan, welcome back to The Daily.

Megan Twohey: Happy to be here.

Michael Barbaro: So, about 2 weeks ago, there was this pretty remarkable scene that played out in Miami, Florida, involving the Tate brothers, who you have been reporting on now for many months. Just describe that scene to us.

Megan Twohey: So, on July 18th, Andrew and Tristan Tate, who are these like massively famous figures around the world with a huge online following in the manosphere, they arrive at this bare-knuckle boxing match that Andrew is actually scheduled to co-host.

Michael Barbaro: Which is very manosphere.

Megan Twohey: Which is like adjacent. Yes, exactly. And you know, this is like classic Tates. Andrew is dressed in a tight-fitting purple shirt with the buttons open and these chains around his neck. Tristan is in this three-piece suit and hat, but as soon as they get out of their car, US Marshals show up. And the brothers are handcuffed and arrested in front of their entourage. And well, you could tell that the brothers were really surprised. And so were we.

Michael Barbaro: And why? Why were they surprised? Why especially were you surprised?

Megan Twohey: Well, US Marshals are part of the US Justice Department. This was a federal action, which means that it was done with the sign-off of the Trump administration. And that's surprising because, you know, the Tates have actually had legal troubles in multiple countries prior to this. They've also had some really powerful defenders here in the United States. That's what my reporting partner, Isabella Kwai, and I have been actually digging into over the past like year and a half. How the Tates developed deep connections to the Trump White House, the Trump family, and other players in the conservative MAGA world. So, this very public arrest that's carried out by the Trump administration really seems like a significant turning point for the Tates.

Michael Barbaro: Right. You and Isabella have become true experts on the Tates, their rise, their immense influence, all their legal troubles, and the role that the Trump administration ends up playing in all of that. So, Megan, tell us the story of how it came to be that the Tates formed a kind of alliance with Trump world, and how we get to this point where the president and those around him may be turning their backs on the Tates, which I think means telling the larger story of the Tates themselves, which I know at times involves some graphic and painful details.

Megan Twohey: It does. Yeah. So, the story of the Tates, I would say is primarily the story of Andrew Tate, who has been the much more prominent figure of the two, although they've worked hand-in-hand for years. And listen, they have enjoyed telling the story of who they are, where they came from, and how they came to have this huge success.

Andrew Tate: Okay, so yeah, I am half English, half American. My father was in the Air Force. He was based in the UK. He met my mother. They were fortunate enough to have this perfect child you see in front of you.

Megan Twohey: So, they are born in the United States to an English mother and an American father.

Andrew Tate: I guess I was raised in a hyper I call it hyper-traditional. The modern world will call it misogynistic household. My father was in charge. It was his household.

Megan Twohey: The parents had a troubled marriage, and eventually they split up, and the Tate brothers relocated to England with their mother.

Andrew Tate: We had no money, and I grew up in Luton, which is the worst town in England, in an area called Marsh Farm, which is the worst area.

Megan Twohey: And as they tell it, we're living in public housing, and really kind of struggling to get by. And once they've reached their teenage years, Andrew Tate goes into kickboxing.

Andrew Tate: So, I want something where there's no luck. It's just me, brutal war.

Megan Twohey: This is where he gets his first taste of fame.

Andrew Tate: I became four-time kickboxing world champion.

Megan Twohey: He goes pro, wins championships, but he's not making a lot of money.

Andrew Tate: So, I said to Tristan, we need to work out a way we can get rich.

Megan Twohey: And he and his brother kind of sit down, and

Andrew Tate: I was watching some YouTube videos like financial advice, and we're talking about assets, liabilities, etc. And I'm writing down all my assets and I'm trying to work out what I have that's worth money.

Megan Twohey: Andrew says like in this moment I kind of looked around my life and decided that I needed to work with what I had.

Andrew Tate: The only thing I had was because I'd been fighting all around the world I had these six girlfriends.

Megan Twohey: And what I had were girlfriends.

Andrew Tate: I messaged my six girlfriends and told them they're all coming to live with me and I had a job for them in London. Two of them wouldn't come, four of them agreed.

Megan Twohey: And he wants to seize on that and make money from it.

Andrew Tate: I said listen, I've been with you all. I'm starting a webcam business. I'm going to get rich. Some of you is going to come with me to the top of the mountain or if you're pissed off you can fly home.

Megan Twohey: And they convinced them to start making sexual content.

Andrew Tate: Two of them left, two of them agreed to stay and they went on cam to start making money.

Megan Twohey: And perform live on webcams for paying customers.

Andrew Tate: Two girls made money, bought a bigger apartment, three girls, four girls, five girls, bang, bang, bang, bang. Before you know what I had a empire of women.

Megan Twohey: And as they had hoped this porn business turns out to be much more lucrative than kickboxing.

Andrew Tate: At the peak I was turning over 400 grand a month.

Megan Twohey: In the years since we've learned what their strategies were for bringing women into their business. They would identify women that they wanted to recruit, actively romance them. Once they had them in relationships, seek to exert control over them. And then steer them into making this content and making it in a way in which the brothers made most of the profit. And Andrew has described himself as a pimp.

Andrew Tate: People always say pimp as if it's a negative thing, but I think a pimp is a very positive thing. I hope we get to

Megan Twohey: And it's not long after they start this business that women are going to the police and complaining about them.

Michael Barbaro: And what were those complaints?

Megan Twohey: So Tristan was arrested in 2014 for an alleged assault of a woman and Andrew was arrested the next year, actually three times. One woman who had worked for him said that he had strangled her during sex. Another said that he had raped, beaten, and pulled a gun on her. And a third woman said that he had raped and strangled her while they were dating. Neither brother was charged at the time, but Andrew has said the attention from law enforcement led them to leave the UK and move to Romania.

Michael Barbaro: And why Romania?

Megan Twohey: As they tell it, they saw Romania as being a place that they could get away with more stuff.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: And listen, like Romania has been known for its corruption, for having a pretty weak criminal justice system, and it's also notably been a major hub of sex trafficking.

Michael Barbaro: Well, what does their life look like after they arrive in Romania?

Megan Twohey: Well, they expand their webcam business. They are overseeing women who are working for them there in Romania. They're still operating out of the UK. They're making more and more money, and they are also continuing to get into trouble.

Michael Barbaro: Such as?

Megan Twohey: Well, in 2016, Andrew actually gets cast to participate in the British version of Big Brother, the reality TV show.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: But pretty quickly a video tape surfaces that shows him in a bedroom beating a young woman with a belt.

Michael Barbaro: Wow.

Megan Twohey: And he actually gets kicked off the show. But he defends himself.

Andrew Tate: I know something came out in the paper, whatever, but things come out in the paper about everybody.

Megan Twohey: And he and the woman involved say it was totally consensual.

Andrew Tate: And nothing that came out in the paper of is anyway, and it was refuted by anyone involved, so that's I just think

Megan Twohey: And he really just doubles down on his bad boy image. And the result is that this scandal ends up in the headlines everywhere, and more people pay attention to him, and his public presence just grows.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: And another thing that happens around this time is the 2016 presidential election. After Donald Trump is elected, Andrew also decides to lean into Trump and the MAGA movement.

Michael Barbaro: How so?

Megan Twohey: He's talking about how much he admires Trump.

Andrew Tate: He's grabbing by the I like that guy.

Megan Twohey: He's tweeting his support for him.

Andrew Tate: Trump is a guy who says what he means and means what he says.

Megan Twohey: And one of his tweets of support catches the attention of Donald Trump Jr.

Andrew Tate: I was running my mouth, and I was defending Trump. Junior just liked one of my tweets.

Megan Twohey: This is a really big deal to Andrew.

Andrew Tate: I looked at it and I was like, "Wow, Donald Trump Jr. liked my tweet. Nice."

Megan Twohey: And he brags about it online, and Donald Trump Jr. writes back. Eventually, they start direct-messaging.

Andrew Tate: And then I had some DMs with Don Jr. talking about some things.

Megan Twohey: Following this, the Tate brothers actually travel to Washington D.C., posing for photos inside the Trump International Hotel. Tristan even posts selfies from the Trump lobby, basically using it as his base in Washington. It's like, these are their connections to high politics.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm. And they have made this direct connection via the internet from this British kickboxing world living in Romania to the son of the most powerful person in the world at the time.

Megan Twohey: Yes, absolutely. But it wasn't just about political allies, it was also about how this boosted Andrew Tate's reputation online. During this period, he begins to build his brand as a guru for men.

Michael Barbaro: And what is that message?

Megan Twohey: Andrew is really presenting this worldview and spreading these messages about how men have been sidelined.

Andrew Tate: We are the backbone of every economy. They want us to be worker ants. They want us to be semi-depressed, paying taxes as tax slaves in a sexless marriage with kids who don't respect us.

Megan Twohey: He also preaches about the need to dominate women.

Andrew Tate: Females are barely sentient. Females don't have independent thought. They're just empty vessels waiting for someone else to install the program. Ching ching.

Megan Twohey: He at times openly talks about violence against women.

Andrew Tate: Choke her so she can barely breathe till her shoes are forever. She can't say They're going to believe it. You can program them. They are programmable beings.

Megan Twohey: And promotes this intensely misogynistic worldview.

Andrew Tate: You can't slander me cuz I will state right now that I am absolutely sexist and I'm absolutely a misogynist. So I'll say what I want because I'm a realist, and And you're a realist, you're sexist.

Michael Barbaro: Megan, when I think of the manosphere, I don't think about messages that are this violent. And so, am I right to think of this as being on the extreme edge of the manosphere?

Megan Twohey: Yes, it's absolutely on the extreme end of the spectrum of the manosphere. And, you know, it's actually like at the same time complicated because there are these moments where the Tates are downplaying the more violent and demeaning comments as just bravado.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: And they're also mixed in with these messages of male empowerment. You know, go to the gym, start your own business, be strong, drive a cool car.

Michael Barbaro: Have a purpose-driven life.

Megan Twohey: Yeah, and this is the moment when the Me Too movement has taken off, and they're telling boys and young men that they need to rise up, and that feminism has gone too far. And

Michael Barbaro: to interrupt because Megan, you're pretty central to the growth of the Me Too movement through your journalism here at The Times along with our colleague Jodi Kantor and a large cast of others. When The Times broke the story of powerful men like Harvey Weinstein and the sexual abuse that they'd carried out, it began this national conversation. The Tates are explicitly targeting this conversation, right?

Megan Twohey: Oh, absolutely. You know, I think that while Me Too proved to be this empowering moment for a lot of girls and women, there also came to be this sense that it was disempowering for boys and men. And there's this growing feeling among certain male demographics that boys are being ignored, that boys are being punished for just wanting to be boys.

Michael Barbaro: Right. And in that sense, the Tate's timing was crucial.

Megan Twohey: Yeah, and the Tates are sort of swooping in and being like, "You're right. Everything that you're feeling is right. We're going to kind of show you the way out, and we're going to help restore masculinity. We're going to help restore confidence. We're going to restore the power of men."

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: And you have eventually like millions of boys and young men who gravitate to the Tates. It's hard to overstate just how big these guys are getting. And in 2022, Andrew Tate is one of the most Googled names on the internet.

Michael Barbaro: And then, in December of that year, at the height of their fame and influence, their home in Romania gets raided.

Andrew Tate: The Matrix has attacked me.

Megan Twohey: And it is the beginning of the authorities in Romania launching this huge criminal investigation against them, in which they're eventually accused of trafficking multiple women into their porn operation, human trafficking. Andrew's accused of raping one of those women and of having sex with a minor.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: Now, I should add that the Tates strongly deny all the criminal allegations against them.

Michael Barbaro: Understood. So, at this point, the legal troubles that had started for the Tates in England were now finding them in Romania, this place where they thought that they would be safe from those kinds of investigations.

Megan Twohey: Yes, and while those initial police complaints that they had faced in 2014-2015, those hadn't been made public. This Romanian investigation is a very public affair. And the Romanian authorities are actually prohibiting them from leaving the country while they follow through with the investigation.

Michael Barbaro: We'll be right back. So Megan, how exactly do the Tates use this Romanian investigation to forge even stronger alliances in President Trump's orbit?

Megan Twohey: So one of the first strategic moves that they make is to hire as an attorney Joseph McBride, a lawyer here in the United States who actually came to prominence and into the MAGA world by representing people accused of insurrection on January 6th.

Michael Barbaro: So they hire a lawyer very much in the Trump mold.

Megan Twohey: Yes, and McBride turns around and pitches his new client to Tucker Carlson who has in this moment recently left Fox News and is working to start his own show. And so McBride goes to him and says, "Listen, you should come to Romania and interview Andrew Tate. You guys will break the internet."

Tucker Carlson: Hey, it's Tucker Carlson. Imagine being a sixth-grade boy in the United States right now.

Megan Twohey: And that's exactly what Tucker does.

Tucker Carlson: What are they telling you on the internet? Well, they're telling you to stop being yourself. Sit still, suppress your aggression, obey.

Megan Twohey: And this is a really important turning point.

Tucker Carlson: So, it's probably not surprising that Andrew Tate was the most Googled man in the world last year. He offers a different vision.

Megan Twohey: Tucker Carlson sits down, speaks with Andrew for more than 2 hours, and it's a very warm, sympathetic interview.

Tucker Carlson: What is it about your message do you think that infuriates certain people?

Andrew Tate: Well, my message is traditional masculinity. My message is to stand up and say what you mean and mean what you say, and even

Megan Twohey: They spend much of the 2 hours discussing what they consider to be like a left-wing war on masculinity and their other shared conservative beliefs. And when discussing the criminal case in Romania, they misrepresent the allegations.

Tucker Carlson: But you're not actually accused of rape,

Andrew Tate: Correct.

Tucker Carlson: selling anyone,

Andrew Tate: Correct.

Tucker Carlson: pimping,

Andrew Tate: Correct.

Tucker Carlson: Okay.

Megan Twohey: With Carlson saying, "You haven't been accused of rape. You haven't been accused of any violent crime." When in fact, he had.

Tucker Carlson: But you can't send a guy to jail cuz you disagree with him.

Andrew Tate: You shouldn't.

Megan Twohey: And this interview is a sensation. I think it is ultimately been viewed more than 110 million times.

Michael Barbaro: That really is breaking the internet. I mean, that's an astonishing audience.

Megan Twohey: It is, and other people notice.

Candace Owens: All right, let's just jump right into this. Andrew Tate

Megan Twohey: within a matter of weeks, Candace Owens, who is also this conservative media figure who's working to build her audience, she travels over to Romania.

Candace Owens: I see conservatives assigning like real meaning to you saying stuff that is just so obviously content for young boys. So, the way

Megan Twohey: to also do a sympathetic interview with Andrew.

Candace Owens: This is how guys have fun in the same way that girls sit around and talk about Real Housewives.

Andrew Tate: Yeah, absolutely. It's bravado.

Megan Twohey: Even Charlie Kirk comes out and says that

Charlie Kirk: Andrew is a very smart man, and I'm not going to get into all the accusations against him. I don't know the truth, and we'll find out. But I will say this, what he says is so powerful.

Megan Twohey: He doesn't approve the Tate's porn business, but

Charlie Kirk: What Andrew Tate is doing is he's communicating a warning of what happens when society becomes too feminine.

Megan Twohey: He understands why their messaging is resonating with so many people.

Michael Barbaro: Hm.

Charlie Kirk: Now, if I offend you with this, good, cuz honestly, it's the truth, and you need you need to hear it. So

Michael Barbaro: So all of a sudden these big voices on the American right, who at the time are allies of promoters of President Trump, they're finding common cause with the Tates, and they're seemingly identifying with their central message.

Megan Twohey: Yeah, I mean, listen, these figures have their own audience and their own supporters, but I think that what's happening in this moment is that they're realizing that the Tates have a huge audience of their own, and that if they can sort of interface with them, whether that's interviews or talking positively about them publicly, that they can tap into that audience and bring it into their fold. And that includes Donald Trump. In 2024, he is running for re-election and trying to reach audiences of young men. And remember, Donald Trump Jr. is already a fan of the Tates. In fact, he's publicly defending them against the Romanian criminal investigation. And now Trump's youngest son, Barron, is also a fan.

Michael Barbaro: Hm.

Megan Twohey: Barron is very much tapped into the many voices in the manosphere, and he's encouraging his dad to connect with them. You know, go on their shows, talk to Joe Rogan, Adin Ross. He knows this landscape. He knows these guys.

Michael Barbaro: He is that young man.

Megan Twohey: He is that young man, and in 2024, he actually hosted a dinner in which he brought together some of these online influencers, including one of the Tate's best friends, uh guy named Justin Waller. He is widely seen as being like the third Tate brother.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: They become friendly, and we learn that Baron has a Zoom call with Andrew Tate. Waller told me that on the call, they talked not just about the presidential election, but also about the Romanian criminal case and how they both thought it was unjustified.

Michael Barbaro: So, at this point, you've got two of the president's sons in communication with Andrew Tate.

Megan Twohey: Correct. And in 2024, as they had been, the Tates are extremely supportive of Trump, and they are telling their massive following, "Vote for this guy."

Michael Barbaro: Right. And as we know, young men in particular end up being a very potent constituency for Trump. His ability to connect with the manosphere really works to his benefit. And when Trump is reelected in 2024, I remember reading this, Kamala Harris goes so far as to say that she missed the boat with the manosphere, and she even cites the support of people like Tate for Trump as helping to defeat her.

Megan Twohey: Yes. And after Trump is reelected, Andrew Tate isn't shy about his beliefs that it's going to have a real benefit for him in his criminal case. He posts on X that the patriarchy is back, and the Tates will be free. Trump is the president.

Michael Barbaro: Wow, he really makes that linkage.

Megan Twohey: Yeah, that's what he's saying publicly. And we found that privately, he was also expressing a belief that the Trump administration was helping him. In a January text to somebody close to him that we reviewed, he wrote, "I had word from the Trump admin that they're on top of things. I've been told I'll be free soon."

Michael Barbaro: And after all of your investigating, what do you come to understand Andrew Tate means when he says that the Trump administration is on top of things? What does that mean in this context?

Megan Twohey: Well, listen, I can't be sure exactly who he's referring to in this text, but there were multiple people in the administration who were openly supporting and defending of the Tates. In the White House, Paul Ingracia, who served as liaison to the Justice Department, and Alina Habba, who was serving as legal counsel to the president at the time, they both publicly backed the Tates.

Michael Barbaro: Wow.

Megan Twohey: And then there was Richard Grenell, who is a special diplomatic envoy to the president, and we learned that behind the scenes, he discussed the Tates' criminal case with at least two Romanian officials.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm.

Megan Twohey: One of them was a top advisor to the Romanian Prime Minister. Grenell met him at Mar-a-Lago. The other was the Romanian Foreign Minister. Grenell spoke with him at this security conference in Germany. And what we learned was that just weeks after that second conversation, this extraordinary order comes down from the highest levels of the Romanian government to the Romanian prosecutors who had been investigating the Tates saying, "You need to reach a compromise with these guys." And they eventually agreed to lift the travel ban that they had used to keep the brothers in the country. And according to our sources, the Romanian Prime Minister believed that this would please the Trump administration.

Michael Barbaro: I just want to say how absolutely striking it is to me that one of the most senior officials in the Trump administration, Rick Grenell, speaks to two of the most senior officials in the Romanian government about of all things in the early days of this second Trump administration, the Tate brothers. And within a few weeks, the Tates' circumstances change dramatically. They suddenly get to leave Romania.

Michael Barbaro: Correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like the Trump administration's role in getting them to that point seems pretty crucial.

Megan Twohey: It is. Now, a spokesman said the White House was not involved in the Tates' case. Still, our reporting found that support from the Trump administration played a crucial role in the Tates' release.

Andrew Tate: Feel that? It's the feeling of leaving Romanian soil. We're off the ground.

Megan Twohey: And as soon as the travel bans are lifted, they get on a plane and fly to Florida.

Andrew Tate: All we do is win in the end. All we do is win.

Megan Twohey: And you know, not surprisingly, they make a video of themselves on this plane gleefully celebrating leaving Romania.

Michael Barbaro: And what happens once the Tates land in the US? What is the reception?

Megan Twohey: Their return to the United States actually turns out to be a bit more complicated than they likely expected.

Michael Barbaro: Hm, meaning what?

Megan Twohey: They arrive in Florida and Governor Ron DeSantis immediately speaks out against them, says, "You're not welcome here." The Florida Attorney General launches an investigation and that

Michael Barbaro: Republicans we should say.

Megan Twohey: Two Republicans and other conservatives are speaking out like Ben Shapiro and Megan Kelly who are saying, "It's a huge mistake to embrace these guys." You know, you can really see that there's not uniform support for them here on the American right. And in fact, while they're in the United States, Andrew picks up another allegation of assault.

Michael Barbaro: Which is what?

Megan Twohey: So, one of Andrew's girlfriends at the time, Brianna Stern, went to police and reported that he had sexually assaulted her and choked her when they were in Beverly Hills.

Brianna Stern: This incident happened on March 10th and after that I was in a concussed state for the next couple of days when I was

Megan Twohey: She does some interviews with the press.

Brianna Stern: I was scared to death. I was terrified that I might die.

Megan Twohey: And also shares her account on social media. And she includes text messages.

Brianna Stern: In one text, Tate allegedly writing, "You backtalk too much, so I beat you." Where he says things like

Brianna Stern: "I really love hitting you. It's good for me."

Michael Barbaro: I mean, that's a pretty direct line it would seem between the Trump administration's alleged intervention on the Tate brothers' behalf, which allows them to leave Romania and come to the United States, and an act of alleged abuse in Beverly Hills that occurs as a result, right?

Megan Twohey: Yes, that's the allegation. I mean, I you know, her police complaint didn't result in a criminal charge, but the two of them are now in a legal battle in civil court.

Michael Barbaro: Hm.

Megan Twohey: And Brianna Stern at this point is one of several women who have started to publicly speak out about their experiences with Andrew Tate over the years.

UK Victim A: We were having sex and he strangled me until I passed out. And then when I came back around, he was still having sex with me while I'd been passed out.

Megan Twohey: Others, including women from the UK who interacted with Tate over a decade ago, have also talked to the press.

UK Victim B: Andrew would call us lazy hoes. I saw him smack girls with a belt. He used to He used to strangle us as well.

Megan Twohey: And there is a clear pattern in what these women describe of strangulation, of rape, of beating. And the new criminal charges against the Tates don't include names of the women, but they describe exactly this type of behavior.

Michael Barbaro: So, what exactly are these new charges and why are they coming right now?

Megan Twohey: Prosecutors in Britain have issued 38 charges against the brothers including rape and sex trafficking for alleged incidents that occurred between 2010 and 2017. And Andrew has also been charged with extreme pornography and indecent images of children. And these are actually the second round of extradition requests that have been followed through by the British government, which is why they were suddenly handcuffed and arrested by US Marshals in Miami.

Michael Barbaro: Well, given everything you have told us about what happened after the raid in Romania with the Trump administration coming to the Tate brothers defense and discussing the Tates with Romanian officials, you might think that the Trump universe would once again be activated and come to the Tates' defense.

Megan Twohey: It is not. What we found is that with the kind of escalation of these charges, with the extradition request being followed through by the administration, with the Tates now behind bars, many of their one-time powerful allies are distancing themselves.

Michael Barbaro: Mhm, like who?

Megan Twohey: So, those administration officials that I mentioned, they now deny having any ongoing connection to the Tates or aren't commenting. There's been no word from the president's sons, Barron or Don Jr. Some of the media figures who defended them are declining to comment. And on Thursday

Elizabeth: Thanks, Caroline. Um, is President Trump's the administration, uh, do they have any plans to intervene in the extradition process of the Tate brothers?

Megan Twohey: When asked whether President Trump intended to intervene in the case in any way.

Caroline Leavitt: No. We've already answered that question. Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Thank you, Caroline.

Megan Twohey: His press secretary said, "No."

Michael Barbaro: Right, and not much more than that.

Megan Twohey: And not much more than that. Just simply no.

Michael Barbaro: So, the president's orbit is very clearly turning on the Tates. Why do you think that is now?

Megan Twohey: Well, the Tates are facing more serious charges than ever before. And with the extradition request, the Trump administration has been forced to participate. It's had to take an official stand. If the administration said no, that would be a very brazen, very public act. I mean, it's extremely rare for the US to reject an extradition request from the UK.

Michael Barbaro: Right, a close ally.

Megan Twohey: And just more broadly, the benefit of associating with the Tates has gone down and the risks have gone up. I think that President Trump and others have actually come to realize through Jeffrey Epstein just how politically damaging an association with even an alleged trafficker can be.

Michael Barbaro: Right. I mean, I would argue that the Epstein story has been the dominant scandal of the president's second term, and the parallels to the Tates are obvious. And it's hard to imagine the administration wanting to do that all over again.

Megan Twohey: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Michael.

Michael Barbaro: And to that point, I have to wonder if the reporting that you and Isabella did that demonstrated what seems to be meaningful efforts by those around the president to help the Tates last time would be a strong discouragement for them pursuing that strategy once again.

Megan Twohey: I think our exposing the role that the support from the Trump administration had played in the Tates being freed from Romania has shown that there's going to be ongoing scrutiny of this, that people are watching.

Michael Barbaro: I'm curious given the wide range of investigations you've been involved in when it comes to men accused of sexual abuse and the varying levels of accountability that those men have faced where the Tates fit in and stack up.

Megan Twohey: Well, listen, after reporting on so many of these figures over the past decade I can say that the Tates really stand out, not just because of the really serious criminal allegations against them, but how they've managed to use them to their benefit. You know, they've made these allies in high places.

Michael Barbaro: Right. What's very clearly unique about the Tate brothers is not just the allegations against them as horrific as some of those are, but the reality that they have evangelized and proselytized a entire mindset that demeans and disrespects women.

Megan Twohey: Right.

Megan Twohey: And I've watched as they've pushed the limits to the back lash to me, too. And I've wondered, like, how far will they take it?

Michael Barbaro: How far will this go?

Megan Twohey: And I think in this moment with these new charges, with the extradition, with some of their powerful allies backing away, we may have finally found that limit.

Michael Barbaro: Meghan, thank you very much.

Megan Twohey: Thank you, Michael.

Michael Barbaro: That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.