Anna Martin: Okay. When someone you know loses a loved one, you do all the things you're supposed to do. You buy a card that says sorry for your loss. You send flowers. You make them a lasagna if you're good at making lasagna and you go back to living your life. It's really hard to know what to say next. But my guest today, Susie Shaw, says, "Ask me a question. Ask me about my dead son. Ask me his favorite color, his favorite food, what his laugh sounded like." Susie's son was 9 years old when he died, but she wants people to know what he was like when he was alive. So, the card is nice. The lasagna is great, but in our conversation, I feel like Susie gave me a road map for how to talk to someone who's going through unimaginable grief. She let me ask all the questions that normally might feel scary or invasive or uncomfortable. And she didn't hold back in her answers. She kept assuring me that just being curious, asking those questions, being open to listening, it's the best place to start. Susie Shaw, welcome to Modern Love.

Susie Shaw: Thank you so much. I am so grateful to be here.

Anna Martin: Susie, I am going to be totally honest. I'm looking forward to this conversation and I'm also quite nervous because we're going to talk about this thing that I feel like I'm not actually very equipped to talk about that I don't almost have the language for. We're going to talk about the death of your son.

Susie Shaw: Yeah.

Anna Martin: William, we talk about loss a lot on this show. Um, but the loss of a kid feels to me in a different category completely. I want to start with like how do people react when you tell them about William's death?

Susie Shaw: Uh, usually not well, to be honest. And so for you to even admit that it's hard to talk about is huge, you know? I mean that that's a perfect thing to say like, "Oh my gosh, that's so overwhelming, but I want to hear about it anyways." Um but when I do tell a new person about William, usually I end up having to console them.

Anna Martin: Usually you have to console them.

Susie Shaw: Usually I have to say something like, "Well, you know, I still have other living kids." or you know, we we found joy in our life, you know, to sort of throw them the bone of like we're we're we're doing okay. Don't worry. Um

Anna Martin: You're helping them out.

Susie Shaw: I'm helping them out, which is hard because I'm the one whose child died. Um and it's really hard for me to live with that. I'm just you just have to hear about it, right? Um and you get to go home to, you know, whomever is at your house who's still alive, whether it's kids or partner. Um, so yeah, it's it's hard to to tell people. You can see it. They brace the table or they brace the bar and there's oh my god, like that is just like a physical change over them.

Anna Martin: 100%. Um, what else? What else do you notice?

Susie Shaw: Um, a slight recoiling, you know, like they definitely like are taking that in. I think they're immediately thinking about their own children as well. If I had to um you know predict what they might be thinking about. Um and they also I think they're struggling for what to say.

Anna Martin: Of course, 100% like oh my god what what do I possibly say to this woman?

Susie Shaw: Um and I I will say that the there is one best answer um and that answer is tell me about him. Tell me what was his name? What was his favorite color? What did he like to do? Um because as a bereaved parent, I want to talk about my child, my dead child, just as much as my living children. Um and I I don't get to talk about William as much because he's not around to do things and be places um and have experiences. So I only get to talk about him when people sort of ask about him.

Anna Martin: Well, I want to know about William.

Susie Shaw: Awesome. Thank you.

Anna Martin: Tell me about William.

Susie Shaw: William was the the love of our family, the heart of our family. Um, when we had William, we also had our son Kai. Kai is the light of our family, we would always say, but William is the heart. He

Anna Martin: And Kai is how much younger than William?

Susie Shaw: Two and a half years.

Anna Martin: Two and a half years.

Susie Shaw: Um, so William was my first. Um, and we spent a lot of time together, just the two of us. We were living out in San Francisco. It was a new city for us when he was born. And so I didn't have a lot of friends yet. My husband would go to work every day and it was just the two of us just strolling the streets of Oakland, um, going to the playgrounds and we just fell in love. He was sweet and cuddly. He loved to give big giant hugs. He was a terrible kisser. Uh, had had like like thin lips, you know, real thin lips.

Anna Martin: When you give mom a kiss, you'd be like, "Oh, we got to improve that." The hugs like beyond. Describe a William hug.

Susie Shaw: Just wrap around wrap cuz he was, you know, he was always shorter, right? So it's like he would embrace your middle and just so strong or I would pick him up and I would get him to give me the bear hug around my neck. Um but just tight as tight can be. Um

Anna Martin: What did he like to do? What was a perfect day for William?

Susie Shaw: Well, um, oddly enough, skiing with his father, which we'll get to. Um, but he he called himself an extreme sports guy. He loved skateboarding. He loved parkour. Uh, he loved mountain biking. Um, all these like really eccentric kind of crazy sports. He just

Anna Martin: He always like he had like a knee that was banged up. Was he that kind of kid? There's like always a bandage.

Susie Shaw: Yeah, there was a couple broken bones here and there. Um you know fallen at the skate park. Um

Anna Martin: Sure. What was sort of his role if he was hanging out with his friends? Was he

Susie Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. He was um he was the buddy guy. So he was he was everybody's best friend. Um and he was the kid who Do you know what a buddy bench is?

Anna Martin: I do not know what a buddy bench is.

Susie Shaw: So at recess out on a playground at school, they often have these things called buddy benches. And if you're out at recess and you don't have a friend to play with, you sit on the buddy bench and wait for some. Yeah. They're It's lovely. It's so It's such a

Anna Martin: That's really

Susie Shaw: Yeah. And so William was the kid who would go to the buddy bench sitters and be like, "Come play."

Anna Martin: Susie, as much as you are willing to share, can you tell me about the day things changed for your family?

Susie Shaw: Absolutely. Um and thank you for letting me. Um it was just like any other day we woke up and nothing nothing felt out of the ordinary. We were on vacation out at Big Sky in Montana. Um our family was a ski family. My kids Kai and William were on skis by the time they were like two two and a half. Um so it was our third trip out west. So everybody was prepared and everybody was experienced. There was no um it wasn't our first rodeo, right? Yes.

Susie Shaw: And it was my job to get the two boys to ski school that morning and they were just having a half day. So I dropped them at ski school. Um

Anna Martin: William and Kai.

Susie Shaw: William and Kai. I said goodbye to William. Um and the plan was Nick was going to get William after ski school and head up to the top of the mountain. It's called Lone Peak. And we were me and Kai were supposed to meet Nick and William down at the base of the mountain. and we were going to do like one or two more ski runs together before we ended it for the night. So, I'm down at the base and Nick gives me a call and he said, "H, William skied great. It was so amazing. Lone Peak was he he crushed it. He was at the top of his game. I can't wait to show you the video." Um, we'll be down in 5 minutes.

Susie Shaw: So, I said, "You know what? Let's do one more quick run." We took the

Anna Martin: You and Kai.

Susie Shaw: Me and Kai. Yeah. So, we we hopped on the the little lift, went up, and as we got off the lift and we started going down, my phone rang, and I like, you know, I had my big ski mittens on, and I had my poles, and I was like, it's I know I knew it was Nick, and I knew he was going to be like, "Where are you? We want you, we're ready." So, I I ignored it. And then he called again and then again and then again.

Susie Shaw: And then I finally got down to the bottom and I picked up the phone on like the the sixth or eighth call and he was like, "Where's William? I can't find William. Is he down there with you?" And that's the moment that phone call, "Where is William?" And I was like, "What are you talking about? He he was with you." And he's like, "I I cannot find him." Um, and then it just went into panic mode. Most of the things that I remember from the rest of that day, and this was probably at like 2 2:30 in the afternoon um are slightly hazy. Um

Anna Martin: can I ask you just what was I can't imagine I cannot imagine what must have been going through and you say it's hazy but as much as you can like what was happening in your head in your body like

Susie Shaw: oh complete panic sheer sheer panic um because it just didn't make any sense. I'm like, he he was just with you, right? Um why are you asking me where he is? Yeah. Um but I hadn't I hadn't jumped to any conclusions yet.

Susie Shaw: Um and then I decided or we decided that I should go back to our cabin. Um because uh William knew how to ski back to it. It was kind of like a little cabin off the side of a trail.

Anna Martin: He might go back.

Susie Shaw: So he might go back um because he got separated from Nick. Couldn't find me. Well, I'll I'll meet mom and dad back home. Um, so Kai and I get on the lift to go back up there. As soon as we get off, we see our friends, which was very strange. They had just come out of the burrito shack. Um, and the dad, our friend, he's a paramedic and a firefighter, and he went off um with another gentleman to go look for William. The mom and the two children came with me to go back to the cabin. Um, so we skied back there and as we were getting closer, like my heart was racing. Um, and we got there and I crumpled because his skis were not there. Um, which meant we had no idea where he was. None.

Susie Shaw: And it was starting to get dark and it was starting to get really cold and it was starting to snow. And so we knew there was this like window as well. um if we didn't find him, like when would we find him? So, we went we got into the cabin and the kids started playing a card game cuz we needed them to just be busy. And me and my girlfriend were just looking at the maps trying to figure out like where he could have gone from this one particular trail. She made me tea. I don't know if I drank it.

Susie Shaw: And then I got a call and it was Nick. And I went into the bedroom cuz I didn't want the kids to see me. and he said, "They found William. It's really bad."

Anna Martin: Oh my god.

Susie Shaw: And I fell to the floor and I screamed into the carpet, but I also thought, "Okay, well, like, it's really bad, but we can fix it. We can fix it. Um, we're going to do everything that we can. We're going to get him out of here. We're going to get him to the hospital, and they're going to fix it." So, we we piled into the car. Um, and then we pulled we pulled into the parking lot and um there was this man uh he was a ski patroller and he was standing at the front door of the clinic and I started to appro I started to go in and and I immediately saw his body language and I knew that he was standing there to tell me that my son was dead.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Susie Shaw: And I ran away. I just I bolted in the other direction because I thought to myself like if if I don't go in there, if I don't have him tell me but this isn't real. Um and so I just like fight or flight like I just flew away.

Anna Martin: You just had a sense.

Susie Shaw: I just had this sense like oh he's dead and he's he's he's here to bring the bereaved mom into this space.

Anna Martin: Um but in that moment you just take where did you go? took off. I just ran

Susie Shaw: in the opposite direction and my girlfriend ran after me and she tackled me. Um because she knew I had to go in. Um I remember going in and I saw him sitting in a chair. And

Anna Martin: you saw your husband sitting?

Susie Shaw: Yeah. and just bent bent you know just in that that that the fetal position of just you know and I looked at I ran over to him and knelt in front of him and I had just said to him it's not your fault

Anna Martin: and um

Susie Shaw: he credits that statement which was very not thought of like I'm not thinking about what I'm saying but he credits that with um the beginning of our ability to heal. Um, yeah.

Susie Shaw: And then I thought that we were only there for about 20 minutes. I found out later we were there for about 2 hours. Um, I remember that this woman came over to me. I had just found out that William was dead. She came over to me with a clipboard and she asked me like what my address was and I threw a metal water bottle at her. I don't know if I hit her, but I was in that ra like that rage state. Like what is anyone else? Can you ask anyone else what my happiness is? Um

Anna Martin: why does it why do you need to know right now? Like what what's that question for? Yep. Yep.

Susie Shaw: And then at some point we went into uh the room that he was in and uh he was um he was laid out on the table and um they had like cut his clothing, you know, his big ski cuz they they tried to resuscitate him. We we found out later that he died on impact, but especially in children and especially in the cold, they try to bring them back. Um it didn't work and we just I think we sat with him. I stroked his hair. I held his hands and we had we had no idea what to do. Like do do we do we do we do we take him? Do we leave? like it was just this like we who where are the where are the instructions for this moment where you're alone on in a ski resort. The ski resort didn't know what to do. Um

Susie Shaw: and then at some point we left the room and then I I asked my friend to go back in with me cuz I wasn't ready to leave. And so like this woman that I I didn't know that well, she went back in that room and she stood with me and like with my dead son, her son's friend. And then at a certain point, it just felt like it was time to go and tell Kai that his brother was dead because we realized that there was nothing we could do for William. like he was he was dead, you know, like we couldn't there was no measures to take and I would have taken every [ __ ] measure imaginable, but there was nothing that we could do.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Susie Shaw: Um I could not tell Kai. Um and Nick ended up doing it and he was really quiet. He was just so quiet about it.

Anna Martin: Oh, I can't imagine that. I just can't imagine.

Susie Shaw: Yeah. and me and Kai's best friend, his older brother who he looked up to so much. Um, and it's these all of these moments like standing in that room with my dead son, sitting in front of my living son, having to tell him that his brother is dead. Like, these are those unbelievable moments that I have to carry and that all bereaved parents have to carry that like people just can't even imagine and they can't understand. So they don't they don't appreciate what we have walked through. They are so intense and we never forget them. Um and they just shift you seismically inside. Um like I'm not the same person I was on that same morning that I woke up. I am a different human because of what I saw and because of what I had to do. Um, yeah.

Anna Martin: You tell Kai and then what? I mean, you you said it yourself. It's like where is the road map for this? There's no manual. How do you figure out what to do next?

Susie Shaw: Pure instinct. Um, we had a friend actually call and get us flights out for the next day because we we panicked. We were like, we need to get home immediately. We thought something else was going to happen in Montana. I we we I really thought someone else was going to die if we stayed.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Susie Shaw: We've been We've been there. We've seen it. Why wouldn't somebody else just, you know, get swallowed up whole by the earth? Um I I I had to call the um I had to call our local Boston area um mortuary to tell them where William was so that they could figure out how to get him home cuz you have we had to ship him home. Um but he had to be embalmed first. You can't fly unless you've been embalmed. So, we actually had to leave Williams body in Montana.

Susie Shaw: Um, like I had to pack all of William's things into his bag and I'm like, "Do I need these? Am I supposed to take these? Do I leave these here?" I had I had no idea. So, I just I brought them and then we, you know, eventually we get to the airport. My brother picked us up. Um but he had our car and like there was you know one extra car seat still like a booster seat in the car. Um there was one less person on the plane with us. It was just it was surreal and we were you know shock lasts for quite a long time and uh we just walked through that whole first couple of weeks in in shock.

Anna Martin: Susie, I mean, thank you sounds like the maybe wrong thing to say after bringing me into that day and and the days that followed, but thank you. I mean, it I'm failing to even respond because I don't know how. In grief, we we talk about just being witnessed, and that's enough. I mean, you just witnessed my grief, and there's nothing you can say or do to make it any better, but just bearing witness to the story and to my emotions.

Anna Martin: You know, you had such an urgency to get away from the mountain and back home, but then I imagine being back home with William's stuff. His room is there. His bed is there. I mean, it probably smells like I just That must have been It must have exploded open a whole different side.

Susie Shaw: Yeah. I wanted to move. I was like, I can't I can't stay here. Absolutely. I started looking at other real estate in town. I was like, I don't want to be here.

Anna Martin: What was dinner like?

Susie Shaw: Oh, it was awful. It was. And so, um, we we had this big round table. It was for six people. Um, and the four of us, you know, we were sort of lopsided, but we fit fine. There was always like extra space. Um, it was like, okay. And then there when there was three of us, it was horrific. We barely felt it. And it was just so lonely and we were just a a bunch of sad people sitting around this table.

Anna Martin: Um, and so sad in a in a shared way, but also of course sad in such individual ways. Did you feel like this grief was connecting the three of you? I mean, of course, I I bet it was yes and also not at times, but yeah. What did that feel like? Did it pull you closer? Did it kind of push you apart?

Susie Shaw: I think a little bit of both because I was like, well, why is Kai not crying? And I'm crying all the time at the drop of anything. Um, I'm crying, you know, taking a walk. I'm crying in the shower. I'm crying just picking up him at school. Um, Nick is not crying. he is like going internal, you know, and he's quiet. So, even though we were all living together and grieving the same person, we were all doing it so differently and so it felt isolating.

Susie Shaw: Um, but we we got a new table. We got a different table.

Anna Martin: Were there other things like that, practical, maybe even seemingly small sort of everyday things that you realized, oh, this is this is the change I can make that is making this feel more manageable. I'm I'm curious. The table is so smart to get another.

Susie Shaw: I got a different car. Um because William had helped me pick out the car. Um and I just when I would drive it, I I hated being in it. Um we changed his room actually really soon. Um there's so many parents who save their room and and that that works for them. I did not want his bunk bed to be in this room. So, we turned it into like a meditation den. All of his things are still here, but it's it's not his childhood room. And that that feels better for me and us. Um, yeah, we just we had to make these little and big changes so that it just felt better, the three of us, cuz it was it was a huge shift to go from four and and two rambunctious children in an instant go to three. It was so quiet in the house. There was no more wrestling, you know. There was no more obstacle courses that anybody was doing. It was so quiet.

Anna Martin: You mentioned friends obviously reaching out people in in your life. Um can you tell me like was there some can you remember something someone did that was really helpful tell me about that.

Susie Shaw: Um so our school our school had like a trauma session. Um we d you know William died during February vacation on a Tuesday and the kids had to wait a week to go back. So on like the Sunday before everybody went back, the school held an information session to find out what happened to William Shaw. And my son Kai's little friend Aku and his family went. Um, and I had had at that point I had had close friends who weren't stopping over without announcing themselves or sending me a text like they didn't want to intrude. But Aku and his family went to this session and immediately showed up on my doorstep without a call, without an ask

Susie Shaw: and they sort of put their son like kind of pushed him forward like we thought you might need Aku and then they left.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Susie Shaw: It was the most thoughtful thing anyone has ever

Anna Martin: Tell me why tell me why that was thoughtful because I'm actually I'm I'm kind of surprised by that. That that contravenes what I would assume you know people think you want distance. Tell me why that was so thoughtful for you.

Susie Shaw: Because they just showed up without asking me to do the job, right? They didn't say, "What do you need?" Which makes it my job to tell people what I need. They just thought to themselves, you know what would be really great to support Kai? And so they just showed up and and they dropped their son off for an extended play date and they didn't stay either. That was that was a key point cuz we didn't know them that well. They were like, "Take our son for as long as you need him." It was stunning.

Anna Martin: God, that is it's not what I would immediately I mean the impulse of course is is what to send flowers. It's like I mean and flowers are beautiful. I'm not

Susie Shaw: they die.

Anna Martin: But no,

Susie Shaw: flowers die.

Anna Martin: Wow. Okay, good point.

Susie Shaw: And then you have to clean them up. Don't send flowers. Okay. I mean, it's almost too on the nose. So, it's like having and then being like, "Listen, we're not going to It's so important what you're saying. Don't ask what do you need?" I mean, I'm thinking back to in the immediate aftermath that woman saying, "What's your address?" And you being like, "What the heck?" Like, you're dealing with enough. That's so moving. And I would not expect that to be the thing that you

Susie Shaw: was the best the best thing by far. There was a lot of other great things, but that was the best.

Anna Martin: Can I ask you like the flip side of that which is like was anyone distant with you in a way that surprised you or hurt you. Can you tell me can you tell me about that?

Susie Shaw: Yeah. I mean there were people who just avoided us um just didn't didn't say anything and and I've heard from them since like oh we didn't know what to say and silence hurts more.

Susie Shaw: Um, there was one particular person, they were a she was a a ski mom as well, and she she decided to tell me how she thought my son had died. And that that was so hurtful. Um, because she wasn't there. And

Anna Martin: that is that feels like a big overstep.

Susie Shaw: It was a huge overstep. And and she also one of the things that she said, she she said, "I think he was really tired." And

Susie Shaw: um I spent I'm not kidding you months going over whether or not I had made my son too tired by letting him ski.

Anna Martin: Oh my gosh, Susie.

Susie Shaw: And you know, I didn't ask my husband cuz I wasn't going to let him on on that information. I finally asked my friends who had been skiing with him that day. They were like, he was elated. He was over the moon. But I stewed on that for so long. And she only told me that to protect herself, right? She wanted to make sure it would never happen to her family because they're skiers and she would never make the choices that we made, you know. So, it was like it was this really self-serving comment that was so unnecessary and really hurtful.

Anna Martin: You talked about how your husband Nick was quite internal with his grief and it sounds like you were talking about this and crying and emoting in in ways that were quite external, right?

Susie Shaw: Right. Absolutely.

Anna Martin: What did those different types of grief do to your relationship, your your marriage?

Susie Shaw: Uh, it it strained it for a little bit, but not too long because we were really focused on getting support. So, we started seeing um a family psychiatrist really early on and we went to a support group really early on. And so we started to learn that people grieve differently and just because one shows it and the other doesn't doesn't mean anything about their grief or their their love for the person. So it took a little bit of time and education but we learned to respect one another.

Susie Shaw: Um and give each other the space that each of us needed. Um and it was helpful that very rarely would either of us have like giant grief moments at the same time.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Susie Shaw: um like we would take turns almost and not meaning to but um so we could show up for the other one in their grief.

Anna Martin: Did the loss sort of take up all the space in your relationship? I guess like the Was there room for anything else?

Susie Shaw: Not for a while. Um it was uh it was it was real tricky for a while. Like we it was really hard to be intimate. Um

Anna Martin: I was curious about that actually. It

Susie Shaw: was I just I felt William between us all the time all all the time. Um and I think let's see February, March, April, May. It was like five or 6 months before we ended up having sex for the first time after William died. And I baldled my eyes out afterwards.

Anna Martin: Oh,

Susie Shaw: I was so sad and I I was like, I I don't want to feel this good because I'm I'm I should never feel this good ever again. You know, like it was a lot of different me. I'm I I'm

Anna Martin: It's as much as you want to share. I mean, this is this is the reality of a grief this big is that it it seeps into every single aspect of your life, your marriage. Yeah. Of of your body, of your of pleasure. Can you tell me like again as much as you want to share, but it's like the the the weeping in that response was like was it guilt?

Susie Shaw: I I didn't deserve I a didn't deserve to feel this good because my child had died and I I felt so much shame from his death. Like our one job as parents is to keep our kids alive and I failed. So there was so much shame. I also I didn't ever want to feel good ever again in anything. Um I used to be a figure skater and I didn't want to go back to figure skating because I got so much joy out of that. And so I was like, I I never I could never do it again because I shouldn't be allowed to have that much joy. Yeah. You just you feel like you should be just imprisoned in your pain.

Anna Martin: When did that switch? When did you laugh or smile or eat something good or figure skate or I don't know, have an orgasm and and feel and feel like okay?

Susie Shaw: It took a few years. It really did to truly feel it. And there's always just not with orgasms, but like when when I am like on a trip and or sharing a a special moment with say my family, I there is a twinge of I wish William was here. It really sucks that he's not here. Um but it did take a few years to start to unravel that grief and shame and guilt. Um and that was a big piece of it. A big piece of trying to feel joy and happiness again is to just say like, you know, I am not I'm not gonna feel ashamed about this anymore and I deserve it.

Susie Shaw: And yeah, now I'm like, yes, I can be I can have a amazing day. I can be on a podcast with Anna Martin, you know? Oh my god. Right. So much joy. There's so much joy in that. and then tomorrow I'm going to be sad because William's not getting his license like like his ne my nephews are. Right. So, it's I've learned to hold both of those things.

Anna Martin: was it even a thought to you like maybe we will have another kid?

Susie Shaw: Very briefly it was like oh maybe and then my husband was just like absolutely not. I I don't want to go back in um like and have have a baby and an infant and do that again. We had, you know, packed everything up. We had given everything away. And so because we had already gone through such trauma, I was like, I'm not going to add to it by being like, well, let's have another kid. Like, I'm not going to rock that boat. Sure.

Susie Shaw: Um, and then through a series of of different events, one day, Nick walked into the kitchen. Um, and I the light was shining through the window. It was in the fall. William had died in February. And he just said to me, "Do you want to have another baby?" And I said to him, "Oh my god, yes, I do." And it was like I had put it down so far deep in me that like when he said it was like it like burst out of me. I'm like yes I do.

Anna Martin: And you almost you almost couldn't acknow you didn't know how much you wait but and I you're you know we we're not in your husband's head but what has he told you shifted for him.

Susie Shaw: He just saw me and how sad I was. Huh. And not that a baby would fix it, but it would just add to our family. And I had loved being William's mom. And I I I I just think he wanted me to have that again. Um

Anna Martin: you had more love to give. It was like in where do you put it?

Susie Shaw: Yes. Well, I I I often think of Bod as all the love that we had um left after William died and we didn't know what to do with it and so we put it in Bodie.

Anna Martin: And Bod is the baby that you

Susie Shaw: Bod is the baby that we had. He's now he's almost six, which is unbelievable.

Anna Martin: Was there some part of you that felt nervous that you were putting a lot of pressure or I mean you say that all this love that you had after William died you put into Bod which of course but then I'm also like does that mean that Bod you know this this baby at the time that you were having like was he sort of carrying the family does that question

Susie Shaw: it makes so much sense and I I would suspect that that happens in in a lot of families with or without child loss. Yeah, good point. But um no, it just didn't that wasn't a feeling that we had. It was this separate thing we were doing to add to our family, not to replace, not to be anything but the little Bod.

Susie Shaw: And maybe about a year ago, he actually said to me, cuz he he looks just like William. He has the same curly hair. He has the same mannerisms. And so, and we tell him, "You look just like your brother." And he said to me, "Well, you love me so much cuz I'm like William." And I was like, "Do oh no, what did we did something wrong?" I was like, "Bod, oh no, no, no, baby. We love you cuz you're Bodie. And we love William because he was William. And we love Kai because he's Kai."

Anna Martin: I mean, now Bod is six. What does he know about William? Like, it seems like you're talking about William all the time. What is

Susie Shaw: yeah, he knows he knows absolutely everything that he could possibly know about William um except like his flesh, right? Um we tell so many stories and we started early on um before he could even talk probably and showing him pictures and videos going to places that William has been. He wears William's clothes like not in not in a weird way um but like oh they're hand-me-downs. We would have given you know Kai wore them and now you wear them.

Anna Martin: Was that emotionally complicated for you at all?

Susie Shaw: Yeah, it was. But it also brings me a smile when he comes down cuz he picks out his own clothes, but they're in the drawers and when he comes down in like a William outfit, I'm like, huh, look at that. You know, like it's just it's both. It's that both and like, oh god, I I miss William so much. And look at that. Like part of him still just alive in my kids.

Anna Martin: Can you tell me when you had William and Kai, what kind of parent were you?

Susie Shaw: Um, I I was an anxious parent for sure. Um, I wanted everything to be just so. Um, I wanted the house to look really great. I wanted the kids to be involved in all the different activities. Um, be very diverse. You know, we had to go to story hour. We had to go to the m the little drum circles with the kids. Um, I tried to make sure they always ate organic foods.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Like PTA. Yes. Mhm. It sounds like you were very type A. Does that say as a as a parent? Yeah.

Anna Martin: What were you worried about?

Susie Shaw: Everything. Um, I think I wanted I wanted everybody to like me. I wanted everybody to think I was a really good mom. I wanted to seem like we had it all together. And in a lot of ways, we did. We had a beautiful life. Um, and oddly I think our life now is so much more honest. So much more honest. Um, but I didn't know then. And so I I loved our life then and I value our life now.

Anna Martin: We talked about how you were a quite type A mom with William and when it was William and Kai. What about now with Bodie and Kai? What's your vibe?

Susie Shaw: The less I do, the better.

Anna Martin: This is what I was wondering how. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that.

Susie Shaw: I just realiz like none of it is important except for health and safety. You know, like I mean, if somebody spills something, oh, we'll clean it up. Oh, we're not going to sign up for all the activities. We're just going to hang out at home or go to the playground. Um, I don't care what you wear. You don't have to look a certain way. Show up how you want. Like, all of the things that I worried about before are gone.

Anna Martin: Is it because the worst thing happens? So it's like like bring me into that because there is also a world I could see where a parent loses a child and tightens their become hypervigilant, right?

Susie Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. Um I didn't want to do that. I didn't want Kai, especially at the to live in a bubble. I didn't want him to fear life. He deserves a beautiful childhood. Um like when William was alive, I was like, "We can't get a trampoline. That's so so unsafe." like two months after he died. I'm like, "Oh, the trampoline's coming." Like,

Anna Martin: but wait. Yeah. It was just like, "But trampolines can be dangerous. I really do. I'm not I'm not trying to be twe. I like really want to understand. So, you were just like, "Why? What's the point in worrying or like what a little bit?" Because parents worry all the time and we can we can project the worst and we spend all this time doing it. What could we do with that time instead of worrying?

Susie Shaw: I worried so much about my kids and William still died. Right? The worrying didn't protect him or me from his death. So, it would be so much more useful if I let go of some of that worry and did better things with it. Do you know what I mean?

Anna Martin: I've never heard someone put it that way. I mean, I'm just I'm struck by how honest that is. You worried and he still died. Yeah. And it also it just strikes me like when the film of worry is removed from all the experiences of parenting. It's like you are able to be so present which is absolutely which is the goal. Yes. You're more you're more focused on them versus the worry and what could happen.

Anna Martin: You have become an expert in something no one wants to be an expert in. As you said, you've lived every parent's worst nightmare. And you know, as you've moved through your grieving process, you started sharing what you've learned on social media in person. Can I like and you were talking about this stuff out loud. Why is it important to you to do that?

Susie Shaw: Oh, it's so important to me. Um, there's a few reasons. One of them is because not enough people are talking about it. And I've just gotten so many messages from so many other bereaved parents, mostly moms, but dads, too, who are just like, "That's exactly how I feel, but I didn't know how to say it or I didn't have a space to say it." Um, and yeah, it it just it's it's a it's about creating this place where it's okay to say out loud the really scary things that so many people again don't want to hear.

Anna Martin: And it strikes me too, the language you use is extremely direct, you know, and it's also kind of shifted the language I've used during this conversation. It's like people often use euphemisms, pass away, I don't know, these types of things. And you say like my son who died, William died, and that's important to you. Tell me why.

Susie Shaw: Well, it's it's just the honest language. And I think we when we dance around something, it's it's becomes more abstract, less real maybe. And my life, my experience is very real. And I want people to feel that and know that. Um I also I don't want to sugarcoat it. I don't well, you know, he he passed away. He's gone on to better places, right? No, none of that. This sucks. He is dead. I am so angry about it. And I'm gonna tell you that I'm not gonna tell you that everything happens for a reason. There is no reason he is dead. Um that would work for me. Um and and so I think people need especially with child loss but all all loss all bereavement um should be named for what it is. It's painful. And there's something about using that direct true language and asking and and sort of saying meet me there. right to this person you're talking to, meet me there. And if they can rise and meet you there, then you're having an honest exchange about this thing that happened that changed your life.

Susie Shaw: And there's some people, you know, who see me and like, you know, like, oh god, that you should be moving on. Shouldn't you be done with it? Like, I'm also trying to point out to both grievers and those that support grievers, like this is a lifelong endeavor. Like, I'm never going to move on. And just because I talk about it doesn't mean that it's controlling me or that I'm stuck. It's just part of my existence. Yeah. Just like, you know, being a mom to my living children is part of my existence. And we don't have to move on. We can carry it with us forever. And it's not a negative.

Anna Martin: If I were to ask you like if there was for people who want to support someone who's experiencing the loss of a child, the death of a child, what is like one thing you would say to them as to how to start?

Susie Shaw: Uh, I would say be curious about their child and don't don't shy away from the hard conversations. People are often too uncomfortable um to put out that hand, say their name, ask a question. And it's like just just imagine if you were the bereaved person, right? They are way more uncomfortable than you. So like bridge that gap for them so they don't have to um go first I think would be amazing

Susie Shaw: and and say to the the person I'm going to stop by tomorrow at 8 with coffee. I'm going to come by tomorrow at 4 to take your kids to the park. I'm going to come over tomorrow and we're going to do the laundry together. Right? Like don't p Do you want me to come over to do the laundry? No, no, no. It's, hey, I'm coming um and we're going to do this, right? And so you're you're providing them um with a service instead of making them come up with it.

Anna Martin: You started our conversation too with with leading with curiosity. I mean, someone brings up loss, especially the loss of a child and there's a there's a shutdown. It's uncomfortable. It's scary. We don't want to hear. But it's like you are are saying be curious, ask me.

Susie Shaw: Yeah, absolutely. Because so many people won't talk about it. So when somebody provides a runway to share about my grief, my son, my family, I'm like, "Oh, let's go." Yeah. Get curious. Ask me what were they like. Because they only these people who are dead, they only live in stories now, right? Do you know do you know the saying about how many times we die?

Anna Martin: Yeah. Well, it's the final time is the last time someone says our name.

Susie Shaw: Yeah. The first time we die is when we take our last breath. The second time we die is when our body is put into the ground. And the third time we die is when somebody says our name for the last time, right? And so if you think about if you just continue to talk about your people like I I know they're not really alive, right? I know that. But I'm continuing his legacy, his spirit. Um, and it's not enough. I want him here, but I'll take it, you know. I'll take I'll take stories. I'll take talking about him. I'll take sharing about him.

Anna Martin: Before we close this conversation, I I want to know if you've been back to the mountain where William died.

Susie Shaw: Yes, we have. Um, I felt really called to go there um about 5 years after he died. Um, because I I had banned Montana from anything um from doing anything about Montana in our life. I threw all of our sweatshirts away. Um, but around the 5-year mark, I just felt this urge and this need to breathe in the air that he had last breathed. Um, because again, I had never seen it and nor had Nick. um we didn't know exactly where he was found.

Susie Shaw: Um and so we flew out and I was like, "We're just going to go and we're never going to come back, but we'll do this thing." And the minute we turned into the road that heads up to the mountain and I saw Lone Peak, I was just like, "William's here. William is here. He is in He lives here. He's in these trees. He is in this air."

Susie Shaw: And we, you know, the next day we we met up with the first responders. Um, and we Yeah. Yeah. The guy at the door.

Anna Martin: Wow.

Susie Shaw: I met him and I gave him a hug and I told him how scared I was of him. It was beautiful. His name is Ryan. Um, so they drove us up to the spot and it was unbelievably close to the bottom of the mountain.

Anna Martin: Ah,

Susie Shaw: it was so close. And they had marked the tree for us and so we saw it. Um I thought

Anna Martin: what was that like?

Susie Shaw: Well it was a lot because um Bod had a tantrum [laughter] life in justing what it is. We were lifing. He had started out the day really cranky to begin with and then talking about you know how kids just don't necessarily understand everything you tell them. We had told Bod that William like lived in the trees like

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah.

Susie Shaw: And so we get up to the spot and he was like, "Where where is where is he?" He thought we were going to meet him again. I was just like, "Well, we failed on that that mission of trying to so that was a lot." Um, so Bod was screaming for a while, but it was still this beautiful moment. And I I walked up the path or the trail with my son Kai because I really wanted to see what William had last seen before he went off the side of the mountain. And Kai and I embraced um and he Kai cried. Um it was really beautiful and it felt so important that we had done that. It was it wasn't closure because there's no closure, but it was like now I understand where he spent his last moments. Um, and it filled me in a way that I didn't expect and it made me want to move to Montana.

Anna Martin: Wow. You want to be closer as opposed to stay far away.

Susie Shaw: Yes. Um, so it was an amazing experience.

Anna Martin: Susie Sha, thank you.

Susie Shaw: Thank you, Anna Martin. Thank you for listening and witnessing and being curious.

Anna Martin: The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lin Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Rowan Neimisto, Alicia Beub, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.