《纽约时报》书评读书会讨论帕特里克·拉登·基夫非虚构新书《伦敦陷落》

开场与嘉宾介绍

朋友们，我们回来了，又到了读书俱乐部时间。

[音乐]

大家好，欢迎收听《纽约时报》书评播客。我是 MJ Franklin，是《纽约时报书评》的编辑，也是书评读书俱乐部的主持人。今天和我在一起的是 Jennifer Szalai，她是我们在《纽约时报》的非虚构类图书评论员。你好，Jen，感谢你的加入。

英文原文

Friends, we're back and it's time for book club.

[music]

Hello and welcome to the book review from the New York Times. I'm MJ [music] Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times book review and the host of the book review book club. And today I'm with Jennifer Salai, our non-fiction book [music] critic here at the New York Times. Hi, Jen. Thank you for joining us.

非常感谢邀请我。

英文原文

>> Thanks so much for having me.

我们还邀请到了 Sadie Stein，她是书评栏目的另一位编辑，也是读书俱乐部的常客。

英文原文

And we're also with Sadie Stein, a fellow editor here at the book review and a frequent book clubber.

很高兴能来参与这一期。

英文原文

>> I'm delighted to be here for this one.

谢谢你的加入。本周我们要聊的是 Patrick Radden Keefe 的新书《London Falling》。这次读书俱乐部、这次对谈是一个创下诸多“第一次”的剧集。到目前为止，这是我们书评读书俱乐部历史上选的第一本非虚构类图书。而且 Jen，这也是你第一次参加读书俱乐部。你以前上过这个播客，但这是你第一次来读书俱乐部。

英文原文

>> Thank you for joining us. And this week we are talking about Patrick Rat and Keith's latest book, London Falling. This book club, this conversation is an episode of firsts. It is our first non-fiction book club pick so far in the book review book club's history. It is also Jen, it's your first book club. You've been on the podcast before, but you This is the first time you're on the book club.

确实是这样。

英文原文

>> That's true.

你现在感觉怎么样？

英文原文

>> How are you feeling?

我觉得挺兴奋的。

英文原文

>> I'm feeling excited.

回答得很对。

英文原文

>> That's the right answer.

我有点紧张。[笑声]

英文原文

>> I'm nervous. [laughter]

感到兴奋就好。是的，不用觉得紧张，这期会非常棒的。

英文原文

>> Feel excited. Yes. Don't feel nervous. This is going to be great.

好的。

英文原文

>> Okay.

我这边也一直非常兴奋能来参加你的第一期读书俱乐部，坦白讲，感到很荣幸。

英文原文

>> I have been very excited in turn to to be here for your first book club episode and and feel honored, frankly.

谢谢你。

英文原文

>> Thank you.

剧透提醒与本期流程

这是一场朋友之间的对话，我们要来聊聊这本非常精彩有料的书。不过在开始之前，我照例有几点事务性事项要说明。首先，本期节目会有剧透。然而，为了让所有人都能听得明白，我们把它分成两部分。前半部分剧透较少。我们尽量做到不剧透，但这是一本悬疑作品。这本书的每个元素都像是一种揭示，不过我们会把重大的结论、重大的揭秘留到后半部分，后半部分将会充斥着剧透。所以，大家可以根据自己想了解的内容自行选择收听方式。这是第一点事项。第二点事项，在节目结尾，我们将公布九月份的选书。所以请留到最后，看看我们接下来要读什么。话不多说，我们这就开始吧。

通常我喜欢从情节设定、故事梗概开始，但这次我想从别的地方切入。我想从 Patrick Radden Keefe 本人谈起，这个人物、这位传奇、这位作者。Jen，你给 Patrick Radden Keefe 过去写的三本书都写过书评。我把你推到了风口浪尖。你刚来读书俱乐部，但第一个问题就交给你了。你能告诉我们 Patrick Radden Keefe 是谁吗？

英文原文

>> It's a conversation amongst friends and we're going to talk about this great dishy book. But before we do that, I have my typical admin notes. First, there will be spoilers in this episode. However, to keep this conversation accessible to all, we're splitting it up. The first half will be spoiler light. We try to keep things spoilerfree, but this is a mystery. Every element of this book feels like some type of revelation, but we will save the big conclusions, the big revelations until the second half, which will be spoilerfilled. So, choose your own adventure based on what you want to know. So, that is note number one. Note number two, at the end of the episode, we will reveal our September book. So, stay with us to find out what we're reading next. And without further ado, let's get started. Usually, I like to start with a plot setup, a plot synopsis, but I want to start somewhere else. I want to start with Patrick Roden Keef, the man, the myth, the author. Jen, you have reviewed the past three books that Patrick Roden Keefe has written. I'm putting you in the hot spot. You're new to the book club, but first question over to you. Can you tell us who is Patrick Rodenkeef?

作者风格与过往作品

Patrick Radden Keefe 是《纽约客》的专职撰稿人。但除此之外，他也是多本非虚构图书的作者。最近的一本是《痛之帝国》（Empire of Pain），这是一本关于萨克勒家族（Sackler family）的书，也就是生产奥施康定（OxyContin）的普渡制药（Purdue Pharma）背后的家族，当然正如我们现在所知，该家族在阿片类药物流行危机中扮演了相当重大的角色。

英文原文

>> Patrick Ratenkeefe is a staff writer for The New Yorker. But in addition to that, he's also the author of a number of non-fiction books. most recently Empire of Pain which is a book about the Sackler family which is the family behind Purdue Pharma which manufactured Oxycontton and of course as we know now played quite a role in the opioid epidemic.

你刚才叙述的方式，我觉得也触及了 Patrick Radden Keefe 的某些创作手法。你说这是关于萨克勒家族的书，这个家族又牵扯到等等等等，然后就像是他有一种层层深挖、顺藤摸瓜的习惯，对吧？

英文原文

The way you just recounted that I think also gets at some of the approach of Patrick Rod and Keith. said it's about the Sackler family which is about blah blah blah blah which is and like there's a way that Patrick Browning Keefe rabbit holes correct

没错，正是这样。你可以说这本书写的是萨克勒家族，仅此而已，但实际上它关照的是更大的图景，是这种错综复杂的系统、这个网络，所有这些内容都在这个家族的故事里汇聚交织。他在其他书里也是这么做的。还有一本《什么也别说》（Say Nothing），我也评过那本书，它的核心故事是一个年轻母亲在 1970 年代的贝尔法斯特当着家人的面被绑架，但它同时也是北爱尔兰动乱（the Troubles）的故事。所以，它既是发生在那个女人身上的故事，也是这个地方的历史、政治历史以及一段极度动荡时期的故事，并且把这段历史一直延伸到现在，与当下的现实串联起来。是的，把它选为目前为止全为虚构作品的读书俱乐部的首部非虚构选书，完全说得通，因为 Patrick Radden Keefe 是一位非常圆熟的故事讲述者，这始终是非虚构叙事处于其最具推动力状态的典范。

英文原文

>> well that's exactly it you could say that the book is about the Sackler family and that's it but really it's about this bigger picture this sort of intricate system this network all of this stuff coming together in the story of this one family and he does that with his other books as well there's another book say nothing which I've also reviewed, which is at the heart of it. There's the story of a young mother who was kidnapped in front of her family in the 1970s in Belfast, but it's also the story of the troubles in Northern Ireland. So, it's the story of what happened to this woman, but also the story of the history of this place, the political history, a very fraught time, but also bringing it up to the present day and connecting it to what happened now. Yeah, it makes perfect sense that this should be the first non-fiction pick in what has so far been a fictiononly book club because Patrick Raden Keef is such a consmate storyteller and this is narrative non-fiction always at its propulsive best.

Sadie，Jen 评过他过去的这三本书。你对 Patrick Radden Keefe 有多熟悉呢？

英文原文

>> Sadi Jen has reviewed the past three books. How familiar with Patrick Rod and Keith are you?

那些书我都读过而且都很喜欢，长久以来我一直是他《纽约客》作品的忠实读者。如果你看到署名是 Patrick Radden Keefe，你就会知道这绝对值得细细品读。这本身就是一件盛事。他的文章往往会衍生出专著。事实上，眼前这本最初就是一篇精彩的文章——

英文原文

>> I read and loved all of those books and I've long been a fan of his work in the New Yorker. If you see Patrick Rod and Keef spyline, you know it's going to be something you want to savor. It's an event. He's his pieces often give birth to the books. In fact, this one started as a wonderful piece

我强烈建议大家去读一读，无论你是不是已经读完了整本书。

英文原文

>> which I highly recommend you read whether or not you you've read the full book already.

我想我和你们想法一样。他的书我读过一部分，但没全读过。我读过《什么也别说》和《痛之帝国》，而且在《痛之帝国》出版时，我还为《时报》写过他的人物特写。然后我还读了这本新书。我熟悉他在《纽约客》上的报道文章，但我并没有全部读过。比如我就还没读过《蛇头》（The Snakehead），我很想找时间去读，因为我知道编辑部里有人很喜欢它。经常上我们播客的 Jima 就谈到过那是她的心头好之一。所以我还不完全算个把 Patrick Radden Keefe 读全的死忠粉，但也差不多了。那么，这些是他过往的作品，这就是 Patrick Radden Keefe。我想具体深入到这本新书《London Falling》。我们先来做个铺垫。有人能告诉我们，《London Falling》这本书讲的是什么吗？

英文原文

>> I think I'm with you. I have read some but not all of his books. I've read Say Nothing, Empire of Pain, and I actually profiled him for the times when Empire of Pain came out. And then I've read this. I'm familiar with his journalism in the New Yorker, but I haven't read everything. I haven't read The Snake Head, for instance, which I really want to get around to because I know people on the desk love it. Jima, who's frequently on this podcast, talks about that's how that's one of her favorites. So, I'm not quite a Patrick Roden Keefe completionist, but I'm close. So, this is past work. That's Patrick Rod and Keefe. I want to dive into specifically this new book London Falling. Let's set the table. Can someone tell us what is this book London Falling about?

新书《London Falling》的内容梗概与叙事视角

这基本上是一个关于英国少年 Zach Brettler 之死的故事，讲述了他的家人对这起死亡事件展开的调查，并逐渐了解他卷入其中的地下世界以及他为自己捏造的种种身份。这也是一座正在被新贵财富和寡头阶层接管的城市的更大叙事。

英文原文

>> So, this is a story basically of the death of one British teenager, Zach Breettler, his family's investigation into the death and learning about the underworld in which he'd embroiled himself and the identities he had invented for himself. It's also a larger story of a city which is being taken over by new wealth and the oligarch class.

这一点说得很好。但我想补充的一点是，你提到了他在这起死亡中所构建的那些身份。我想先透露一些细节。这本书一开始就抛出了这个核心谜团。甚至在死亡发生之前，我们就看到了这个名叫 Zach Brettler 的少年。他 19 岁，人失踪了，家人非常焦急。几天后，他的尸体出现在泰晤士河里。又过了几天，出现了几个人，他们表示：“非常遗憾，他是有自杀倾向的。”他的家人并不太相信，觉得“这与我们所认识的 Zach 对不上号”。接着事情曝光，原来 Zach 一直在外冒充某位俄罗斯寡头的儿子。所以，在整个开篇铺垫中发生着所有这些匪夷所思的事情，随后 Patrick Radden Keefe 便以此为起点展开讲述。

英文原文

>> And that's a good point. But one thing I do want to add is you mention the identities he constructed in this death. I want to tease some of the details. The book starts off with this key mystery. Even before the death, we have this kid Zack Breler. He's 19. He disappears. His family is worried. A few days later, his body shows up in the temps. A few days after that, these men show up and they're like, "So sorry, he was suicidal." His family doesn't quite believe that and they're like, "That doesn't check up with what we knew of Zach." And then it comes out that Zach had been posing as the son of a Russian oligarch. So all these like odd things are happening in the very setup and then Patrick Crowen Keefe takes it from there.

是的。正如你所说，他以最好的方式层层深挖，因为 Zach 的父母很快得知，他在与外界打交道时一直冒充是某个寡头的儿子。他过着这种家人一无所知的、彻头彻尾的秘密生活。而这本书很大一部分内容，就是关于我们跟随着其父母的脚步，去了解这个双重身份。

同样让我非常震撼的一点是，甚至在我们真正读到父母出场之前，序言一开始呈现的是军情六处（MI6）大楼监控摄像头的视角，记录下了 Zach Brettler 从某座高档公寓楼的五楼公寓坠落的现场画面。因此，我们一开始就被从外部带入其中，接着镜头被拉得越来越近、越来越近。我觉得 Keefe 在做这种处理时非常娴熟，讲述着这些极其复杂的故事，并构建出这个世界。

对我来说，我有一种奇特的视觉隐喻。听我描述一下：你知道在看迪士尼电影开场时，屏幕上会出现厂标卡片，接着会有一颗飞行的流星划过整个王国，最后落在城堡上吗？我觉得 Patrick Radden Keefe 的叙事眼光、他的视角切换就是这种感觉。因为正如你所言，开篇并不是从 Zach 写起。你先是看到军情六处的监控摄像头，接着看到泰晤士河，然后读到伦敦的历史，再读到财富的概念，这一概念又将你带回到这座豪华大楼前。接着你看到 Zach 坠楼了。这是序言。随后你进入第一章，那是故事的正式开始。然而你并没有立刻读到当时紧接着发生了什么，而是闪回到了 Zach 的出生。Patrick Radden Keefe 就有这样一种本事，哪怕是在铺垫阶段，哪怕只是在开篇短短几页里，就已经让你明白：跟随他的叙事，我们即将踏上一场精彩的旅程。听起来是这样吗？这个描述准确吗？

英文原文

>> Yes. As you say, he rabbit holes in the best possible way because quickly Zach's parents learned that he had been passing himself off as the son of an olgarch in his dealings with the outside world. He had this complete secret life they knew nothing about. And a lot of the book is about our learning as the parents do about this this double identity. One of the things that I was really struck by too is even before we really get to the parents, the prologue begins with the view from the camera on the MI6 building that captures the scene of Zack Breler jumping from this fifth floor apartment in this luxury condo. And so right away we're brought in from the outside and then we get closer and closer and closer. And I think Keas is really skillful at doing that, telling these super intricate stories and building this world. For me, I had this strange visual metaphor. Bear with me. Do you know when you're watching the start of a Disney movie and they're showing like that title card and there's like a flying star that like sweeps through this kingdom and finally lands in the castle. I feel like that is how Patrick Rod and Keith's narrative eye his perspective play is because you're right. You don't start with Zach. You start with the MI6 camera. Then you get the temps. Then you get the history of London. Then you get the idea of wealth which brings you back to this luxury tower. And then you see that Zach has jumped off. That's the prologue. Then you get the chapter 1, the start of that. And you don't get what was happening immediately. You flash back to Zach's birth. Like there's a way that Patrick Rod and Keith, even in the setup, even in the first few pages, is already letting you know we are in for a ride with his storytelling. Does that sound right? Does that sound accurate?

当然。那就是我的隐喻。

英文原文

Absolutely. That was my metaphor.

不，我，我喜欢那个隐喻。你，你赋予了他某种近乎神一般的——[笑声]——在这种，在这种情境下几乎赋予了他神一般的力量。但确实如此。这正是他所做的。这，这是一只非常高超的引导之手，因为他，他对这个故事是如此了如指掌。

英文原文

>> No, I I like that metaphor. you you give him kind of a godlike almost [laughter] power in this in this scenario. But it's true. That's what he does. It's it's a very masterful guiding hand because he he's such a master of this story.

对《伦敦陷落》的总体评价

所以这就让我不禁要问，你们对《伦敦陷落》感觉如何？这是我们的感觉测试。我想大致了解一下，赞成还是反对？你们是很喜欢？感觉复杂？还是讨厌？你们的立场是什么？我想先听听 Jen 的看法，因为严格来说你是这本书的书评人。

英文原文

>> So this leads me to ask, how did you feel about London falling? This is our vibe check. I want to know broadly speaking, thumbs up, thumbs down. Did you love it? Feel mixed? Hate it? Where do you land? I want to hear from Jen because you were technically the reviewer on this.

我真的很喜欢。我不知道我会不会说到“热爱”的程度。Keith 是一位极其有天赋的作家、一位有天赋的记者、讲故事的人。此外我还要说，就他的报道而言，不仅仅是他有天赋。他非常勤勉、刻苦。他和所有人交谈。他拿到了如此之多的文件和各种各样的材料，因此他能真正重构出他认为发生过的事情。我觉得这个故事本身，首先，它的构建非常专业。嗯。

英文原文

>> I really liked it. I don't know if I would say I loved it. Keith is an incredibly gifted writer, a gifted reporter, storyteller. I should say in addition to that in terms of his reporting, it's not just that he's gifted. He's really diligent, assiduous. He talks to everybody. He gets his hands on so many documents and different kinds of material so he can really reconstruct what he thinks happened. I think there was something about this story that first of all it's just expertly constructed. Mhm.

所以我想 Satie，正好就像你说的那样，当你读这个故事时，你就是，你有一种持续的感觉：哪怕你不知道它究竟要走向何方，也丝毫感觉不到有什么多余的内容。尽管在某些地方我们确实读到了整章整章的内容，我一边读一边会觉得，“哇，这真的很扣人心弦。”然后读到最后我又会想，“我不知道自己是否需要这些内容。”但是——

英文原文

>> And so I think Satie, exactly what you said where you read the story and you just you have this constant sense that even if you don't know exactly where it's going, there's nothing about it that feels extraneous. Even though at some point we do get whole chapters where I'm reading along and I'm like, "Oh, wow. This is really riveting." And then at the end of it I'm like, "I'm not sure if I needed it." But

它确实写得极好。读到最后，还是那句话，我认为他对材料的处理非常出色。但我觉得对我来说，也许《什么都别说》，就故事的格局而言，我真的被它深深吸引了。

英文原文

>> it was really well done. And then at the end of it, again, I thought he handled the material very well. But I think for me, maybe Say Nothing, I was really taken by in terms of just the scope of the story.

所以为了弄清楚，再深入探讨一点，你说你真的很喜欢，但没有到热爱的地步，可你刚才说的全都是优点。是什么让你没有——[笑声]

英文原文

>> So to clarify, to drill down a little bit more, you said you really liked it, didn't love it, but you just said like only positive things. What was it that prevented you from [laughter]

对未展开维度的讨论

确实如此。所以，我不得不说，我的意思是，我只是觉得 Keith 是一位如此出色的作家，所以哪怕这并不是我在读过的他的作品中最喜欢的一本，它仍然比很多其他书要好。我们这里的每个人都写过书评，你必须写你真正喜欢的书、你真正热爱的书等等。当你真正、真正热爱某样东西时，我觉得有一种成分在里面，即使这是你工作的一部分，你也会想去阐明究竟是什么真正打动了你。我觉得对于这本书，同样，我只是觉得自己托身于一个完全清楚自己在做什么的人手中，但是有一些东西，我觉得因为这也是——像他所有的书一样，这是一个家庭故事，但 Breler 一家是一个当代家庭，这个家庭经历了发生在他们身上最可怕的事情——

英文原文

>> Exactly. So, I have to say, I mean, I just think that Keith is such an excellent writer that even if it's not my favorite book of his that I've read, it's still better than a lot of other books. All of us here have written about books and you have to write about books that you really like, books that you really love, etc. when you really really love something, I think there's an element where even if it's part of your job that you want to articulate what it is that really speaks to you. I think with this book again, I just felt like I was in the hands of somebody who knew exactly what he was doing, but there was something I think because it was also like all of his books, this is a family story, but the the Brelers being a contemporary family, a family that this is the worst thing that's ever happened to them,

而且他们向他敞开了心扉，他们试图从他们的角度去解释他们是怎么看待这件事的。所以，在这本书中我们确实跟随他们的视角前行，但是关于 Zach，这里面有些东西，也许这是不可避免的，但就是有些东西似乎触不可及。我们就是无从得知。我想这也许也是故事的一部分，对吧？但这其中有些东西，我说不好。我总觉得这里面还有另一个我想要的维度，而我没有得到。我认为你，你触及到了一个点，那就是我的一些缺点——我甚至都不愿意称之为担忧。我在书中希望看到更多的一些东西，主要是因为我想看到 Patrick Radd and Keefe 去探索那些事情，因为他是一位如此优秀的记者、优秀的作家，我希望听到他更多地谈论英国的阶级体系。我希望听到他更多地谈论一个基本世俗的伦敦犹太家庭的期望，这是一个非常特殊的身份认同。我想对这位拉比祖父多了解一点。因为他是如此出色，你希望能听到更多，所以，当他专注于其他事情时，这当然是非常深思熟虑的作者选择，但这可能会让人感到沮丧。

英文原文

>> and they opened up to him and they're trying to sort of explain how they saw it from their perspective. So, we really follow them through their perspective in this book, but there is something about Zach, and maybe this is inevitable, but there's just something that just seems out of reach. We just won't know. And I guess that's maybe part of the story, right? But there was something about that that I don't know. I felt like there was another dimension to this that I wanted and I wasn't getting. I think that you're you're hitting on something which is that some of my cons I won't even call them concerns. Some of the things I wanted more of in the book are largely because I wanted to see Patrick Rad and Keith exploring things because he's such a good reporter and a good writer and I wanted to hear him talk more about the British class system. I wanted to hear him talk more about the expectations of a basically secular London Jewish family which is a very particular identity. I wanted to know a little bit more about this rabbi grandfather. You want because he is so good to hear more and and so when he focuses on other things, it's a very deliberate authoral choice of course, but it can be frustrating.

那么 Satie，根据你刚才说的，我想直接问问你，比如你刚才谈到了你希望多了解一些的事情。我想直接问你，你对这本书感觉如何？赞成，反对，感觉复杂，喜欢，讨厌。你的立场是什么？绝对是赞成，我不仅愿意，而且已经把这本书推荐给了很多人，尤其是我生活中的一些人，比如我父亲，他们不一定读虚构作品，但当然会觉得这本书引人入胜。嗯，

英文原文

>> So Satie, I wanted to just ask you directly though based off what you just said, like you were talking about some of the things that you wanted a little bit more of. I want to ask you directly, how did you feel about this book? Thumbs up, thumbs down, feel mixed, loved it, hate it. Where did you land? Definitely a thumbs up and I not only would but have recommended this book to a lot of people, especially people in my life like my dad who don't necessarily read fiction, but who of course find it gripping. Um,

我能插问两个后续问题吗？首先，你提到这是一本你会推荐给那些不怎么读虚构作品的人的书。这是否意味着，这是今年普遍首选的非虚构类推荐书目？它是针对那些通常不读虚构作品但喜欢故事的人，还是说你在对这本书如何吸引读者做更细致入微的表达？

英文原文

>> can I interrupt with two follow-up questions? First, you mentioned that this is a book you recommend to people who don't really read fiction. Is that to say this is generally a go-to non-fiction recommendation this year? that this is for people who don't typically read fiction but who like stories or are you saying something more nuanced about how this book appeals to readers?

是的，我觉得我所喜爱的很多作品往往都是虚构类，所以我总是很想有一部优秀的叙事性非虚构作品，可以推荐给我生活中的非虚构类读者。但 Patrick Rod and Keefe 的过人之处在于，他的，他的作品足够富有抒情性，而且结构如此精妙，所以我认为它对虚构类和非虚构类爱好者都能产生吸引力。

英文原文

>> Yeah, I think so much of what I love tends to be fiction that I always love to have a great piece of narrative non-fiction to recommend to the non-fiction readers in my life. But the great thing about Patrick Rod and Keefe is that he his work is lyrical enough and it is so well structured that I think it can appeal to both fiction and non-fiction lovers.

好的。你这算是在一定程度上回答了我接下来的追问，那就是关于这本书、关于 Patrick Roden Keefe，究竟是什么让它成为如此首选的非虚构推荐书目？

英文原文

>> Okay. And you're kind of answering a little bit what my follow-up question was going to be, which is what is it about this book about Patrick Roden Keefe that makes this such a go-to non-fiction recommendation?

嗯，他首先是一名记者。他是一名新闻记者，他不沉溺于奇思怪想，尽管他当然运用了作家的艺术手法来讲述他的故事。而且——[嗤笑]——我，我感觉这些题材，这里面已经有了足够的内容。这既是优点也是缺点，那就是它几乎适合所有人，但又几乎有点太多，却又不够。现在，我是拿非常高的标准来要求 Keef，因为《什么都别说》是一本我真正热爱的书。孕育出这本书的那篇报道我也，我也很喜欢，而且我想我对这本书抱有很高的期望，而它并没有完全达到那些期望。话虽如此，它还是很棒的。

英文原文

>> Well, he's a reporter first and foremost. He's a journalist and he doesn't indulge in whimsy, although he certainly uses the the writer's artistry to tell his stories. And [snorts] I I felt like the there were subjects there's enough in here. This is both the strength and the weakness that there's almost something for everyone, but there's almost a little too much and yet not enough. Now, I'm holding Keef to a really high standard because Say Nothing I is a book I really love. The piece that started this book I I loved too and I think I had very high expectations for the book and it didn't quite meet them. That said, it's great.

报道伦理与视角局限

我想尝试把两件事联系起来探讨，一件是你对这本书的感觉——内容很多，但有时又不够深入；另一件是 Jen 说过的话。你在书评中提到了这一点，我想你在做铺垫时也暗示了这一点，那就是：他是否让人觉得有所保留？是否让人觉得他没有——我想有一次在私下 Jen 你说过“没有深入触及”。你能不能，能不能再多谈一点那方面的内容？正如他解释的那样，我想是在书末，或者是接近书尾的地方，他当时在《什么都别说》改编迷你剧的片场，导演把他介绍给了一个人，那个人说我有一个故事要讲给你，说这个人，这个人有些朋友，和他们的儿子经历了一场可怕的悲剧，而且关于这个儿子身上究竟发生了什么，至今仍是一个谜。所以 Breler 一家——

英文原文

>> I want to try to bring two things in conversation which is your feelings about the book. A lot's going on and sometimes not enough with something that Jen said. You mentioned this in your review and I think you were alluding to it with your setup which is does it feel like he's holding anything back? Does it feel like he's not I think at one point Jen off Mike you said not going there. Can you can you tell me a little bit more about that? as he explains, I think it's at the end of the book or toward the end of the book that he was on the set of the miniseries adaptation of Say Nothing when he was introduced by the director to a guy who said that I have a story for you that this this man had some friends who went through this horrible tragedy with their son and that it was still mysterious what had actually happened to the son. And so the Brelers

和 Keith 在一起度过了很多时间。他真的让他们向他敞开了心扉去倾诉。我相信——我不知道他是否在书中提到了这一点，或者他去参加《纽约时报书评》播客时是否提到了这一点——但 Matthew 我想甚至还在他的 iPhone 上录下了对话，因为他是一个非常善于剖析的人，想要记住他们在儿子出事后所进行的这些对话。而他，我认为他接触到这个故事的途径是，这个故事被托付给了他。这是发生在这个家庭身上最可怕的事情。我必须说，那完全是一种合情合理的、获取故事的正当途径。而且我认为 Keefe 非常有责任感。他把这一切处理得非常好。与此同时，总有那么一些东西，就像我感觉缺失了某种维度。而且我，我觉得 Satie 当你提到把这本书推荐给你生活中那些爱书、但也许只读非虚构类书籍、不一定读虚构作品的人时，那句话真的引起了我的共鸣，确实，这本书确实有那样一个维度，而且我的意思是，在某种程度上 Keef 不可能在一本书里把所有事情都做了。我的意思是这本书本身就已经充满了大量的事件、众多的人物、各种道德困境，所以从某种程度上说，你到底还能走多远、多深

英文原文

>> and Keith spent a lot of time together. He really got them to open up to talk to him. I believe I don't know if he mentions this in the book or if he mentioned this when he went on the Times Book Review podcast, but Matthew I think actually even had recorded conversations on his iPhone because he's a very analytical guy and wanted to remember these conversations that they were having in the wake of what happened to their son. And he I think the way he came to the story is he had the story entrusted to him. this the most horrible thing that happened to this family. And that's a totally legitimate, I should say, legitimate way to get a story. And I think Keefe is very responsible. He handles all of this really well. At the same time, there is something there's like a certain dimension that I felt was missing. And I I feel like Satie when you said that thing about recommending this book to people in your life who love books but maybe only non-fiction books who don't necessarily read fiction. There was something about that that really resonated with me where yeah there there was there was a dimension to this book and I mean to a certain extent Keef can't do everything in one book. I mean the book itself is already filled with lots of incident many characters lots of sort of moral quanderies so to a certain extent how far how much further could you go with

……它，但总觉得它……它似乎没有完全达到我读《什么都别说》（Say Nothing）时体会到的那种水准，比如说。

英文原文

but

there

was

something

that

felt

wasn't

quite

meeting

the

level

what

experienced

when

read

say

nothing

for

example

我同意。而且我觉得他是美国人，我自己也是美国人。这本书很棒的一点在于，它引发了与读过它的每个人之间大量的交流，因为首先，这是一本大家一旦开始读就会读完的书，这非常令人欣慰。

英文原文

>> I

agree

and

think

he's

American

I'm

American

myself

one

the

things

that's

been

great

about

this

book

the

sheer

number

conversations

has

spawned

with

everyone

who

reads

because

first

all

it's

book

that

people

finish

once

they

start

which

very

gratifying

所以你能围绕它展开非常好的探讨。

英文原文

>> so

you

can

have

really

good

conversations

about

我当时正和一个英国朋友聊天或者发信息，他……他当时确实表示，他觉得基夫（Keith）没有充分触及英国的阶级制度，或者具体来说，没有充分探讨作为一个来自北伦敦这种环境（milieu）的英国犹太人意味着什么。[哼笑] 我没法对此置评，但我确实知道那些是……是有更多内容的方面。显然，谈论任何与英国相关的事情，你不可能不涉及阶级制度，不可能不涉及殖民主义，他也触及了这些，但在一本由美国人写给基本上是美国受众的书里，你究竟能挖多深呢？

英文原文

>> and

was

talking

with

texting

with

British

friend

and

was

really

saying

that

didn't

feel

that

Keith

grappled

sufficiently

with

the

British

class

system

particularly

what

British

Jew

from

this

North

London

Millia.

[snorts]

can't

speak

that,

but

did

know

that

those

were

things

that

there

was

lot

of.

Obviously,

can't

you

can't

talk

about

anything

British

without

getting

into

the

class

system,

without

getting

into

colonialism,

and

touches

it,

but

how

deep

can

you

book

this

American

basically

for

American

audience?

你说能挖多深，但另一方面，你又能同时兼顾多少事情呢？这已经是一本如此漫谈发散的书了，四处跳跃。到了什么程度它就会过头呢？我觉得每个人的看法大概都会不一样，而他在构建这本书时显然也有自己的考量。你能看出他对于如何安排某些元素、如何切入某些主题或观点或背景故事，都是非常审慎的。因此……

英文原文

>> You're

saying

how

deep

can

you

go,

but

then

also

how

many

things

can

you

juggle

once?

This

already

such

discursive

book.

were

bouncing

all

over

the

place.

what

point

does

tip

into

too

much?

think

that

everyone

will

probably

have

different

opinion

and

certainly

seemed

have

opinion

was

constructing

this

book.

You

can

tell

he's

very

deliberate

about

how

places

certain

elements,

how

jumps

into

certain

themes

ideas

backstory.

And

so,

但我想说，他在道德层面上确实对扎克（Zach）保留了评判……

英文原文

>> but

certainly

does

withhold

judgment

Zach,

would

say,

moral

level

以及对他的父母和他们的育儿方式，我认为这完全是恰当的。不过我们还没听听 MG 的想法。你觉得这本书怎么样？两个大拇指朝上（给出好评）吗？

英文原文

>> and

his

parents

and

their

parenting,

which

think

absolutely

appropriate.

But

haven't

heard

MG.

What

you

think

this

book?

Two

thumbs

up.

对非虚构叙事的评价与创作手法

我给它两个大拇指朝上。我真的非常非常喜欢这本书。我想我本身就倾向于喜欢它，因为我就是帕特里克·拉登·基夫（Patrick Radden Keefe）的粉丝。你们两位都提到了《什么都别说》。我很喜欢那本书。而《什么都别说》实际上是一本为我打开了非虚构领域大门的书。在成长过程中，我觉得自己彻头彻尾是一个虚构作品读者。后来我开始读散文和回忆录之类的东西，但有一类叙事性非虚构、一类历史、一类传记——就像是非虚构里有这么一个领域，是我过去通常不读的。然后……

英文原文

>> I

give

two

thumbs

up.

really,

really

loved

this

book

quite

lot.

think

I'm

predisposed

loving

because

I'm

just

Patrick

Raten

key

fan.

And

you

both

have

mentioned

Say

Nothing.

love

that

book.

and

Say

Nothing

actually

book

that

opened

world

non-fiction

me.

Growing

up,

feel

was

solidly

fiction

reader.

And

then

started

reading

things

essays

and

memoirs,

but

there

was

type

narrative

non-fiction,

type

history,

type

biography.

there's

realm

non-fiction

that

didn't

typically

read.

And

then

所以对你来说，这个选择是非常个人化的。

英文原文

>> So

this

very

personal

for

you,

this

choice.

没错。正是如此。《什么都别说》出版时，我有位朋友向我推荐了它，他们说：“这是一部非常棒的北爱尔兰动乱史，是通过几个关键人物来讲述的。”我记得我当时心想：“那不适合我。算了吧，谢谢。”但这位朋友说：“不，你必须读一读。”于是我读了。那真是一种让人脑洞大开的体验。我当时觉得，我都不知道历史书还能写成这样，我不知道非虚构作品读起来居然可以这么像小说。出于某种原因，我以前在脑海里完全把它们割裂开来了，而这激发了我对非虚构作品的热情，拓宽了我的思维。所以我一直倾向于喜欢帕特里克·拉登·基夫的书，因为那个时刻太具有颠覆性了。话虽如此，转回到这本书，这是一种不同类型的故事。它的体量更小。虽然它确实展现了帕特里克·拉登·基夫常做的那种手法——聚焦于一个家庭，然后四处跳跃——但他在这里探讨的并不是像北爱尔兰动乱或阿片类药物危机那样宏大全面的话题，他核心是从一个家庭、一起死亡、一个谜团开始的，

英文原文

>> Exactly.

Exactly.

When

Say

Nothing

came

out,

had

friend

who

recommended

and

they

were

like,

"It's

this

really

great

history

the

troubles

told

through

few

key

people."

And

remember

thinking,

"That's

not

for

me.

thank

you."

And

this

friend

was

like,

"No,

you

have

read

it."

And

did.

And

was

one

those

mind

exploding.

was

like,

didn't

know

that

history

could

this.

didn't

know

that

non-fiction

could

read

this

much

fiction.

had

for

whatever

reason

just

had

totally

separated

them

mind

and

created

this

excitement

for

non-fiction

and

opened

brain.

have

been

predisposed

liking

Patrick

Rod

and

Keith's

books

because

that

moment

was

transformative.

That

said,

pivoting

this

book,

this

different

type

story.

It's

smaller

scale.

while

does

that

thing

that

Patrick

Roden

Keith

frequently

does

which

focus

family

and

then

jump

all

over

the

place.

He's

not

tackling

big

sweeping

topic

the

troubles

the

opioid

crisis,

the

core

starting

with

one

family,

one

death,

one

mystery,

但你能看出来他在这本书里有点想去触碰更大的议题。至少我得到的感觉是这样：他拥有这个家庭的故事，但他真正是在用它来讲述伦敦、讲述英国发生了什么。而且他在那方面非常擅长，以至于我……我总把他想象成这些故事的建筑师……

英文原文

>> but

you

can

tell

that

kind

wants

tackle

bigger

issues

this

book.

least

that's

the

sense

that

got

that

has

the

story

this

family,

but

really

uses

tell

the

story

what

happened

London,

Britain.

and

good

that

always

think

him

architect

建筑师般地把这些故事拼合在一起，我的意思是，它们构造得实在太出色了，我认为这确实是极其难以做到的。

英文原文

>> of

these

stories

that

pieces

them

together

such

way

that

mean

they're

just

well

constructed

which

think

really

incredibly

hard

do.

我很喜欢这个建筑师的比喻。另一个比喻虽然不完全贴切，但也曾浮现在我的脑海里，就是觉得他像个画家。你见过画家调色吗？比如油画家。他会想，“好的，底色在这里。”而为了画出我想画的画，为了调出我想要的颜色，“我需要多加一点洋红，我需要多加一点空白……”当他们调色时，你能看到那种颜色是如何显现出来的。我觉得他在这本书里就做到了这一点。他的想法是，我想讲巴特勒一家（the Butlers）的故事；他确实想探讨伦敦的历史，他确实想探讨诸如犯罪以及南亚移民模式等所有这些内容，但他从来让人感觉不到他是想写一本专门讲那些的书。他就像是说，“哦，我想讲巴特勒一家的故事，讲他们儿子身上发生的事，而为了把那个色彩拿捏得恰到好处，我需要在这个时候引入这种颜色。”我觉得他在融合各方元素方面非常老练。而这正是我非常非常喜欢这部作品的地方。我们所追踪的事件、那起引发一切的死亡固然引人入胜，但他对于如何带领我们最终找到答案，是如此深思熟虑、细致入微且老道，其方式既富有娱乐性，又信息量十足，还出人意料。我觉得那很难做到，展现了极高的技艺。

英文原文

>> I

love

that

architect

metaphor.

One

metaphor

that

doesn't

totally

work

but

that

was

also

mind

was

felt

was

painter.

Have

you

ever

seen

painter

mix

colors?

oil

painter.

He's

like,

"Okay,

here's

the

base."

And

paint

the

picture

that

want

get

the

color

want.

need

add

little

fuchsia.

need

add

little

blank.

And

you

they're

mixing,

you

can

see

how

the

color

develops.

feel

did

that

here

with

this

book.

He's

like,

want

tell

the

story

the

Butlers.

does

want

tackle

London

history.

does

want

tackle

crime

and

South

Asian

migration

patterns

and

all

this

stuff,

but

never

feels

wants

book

about

that.

He's

like,

"Oh,

want

tell

the

story

the

butlers

and

what

happened

their

son

and

get

that

color

just

right.

need

bring

this

color

this

time."

feel

he's

very

savvy

how

brings

things

together.

And

that's

what

really

loved

about

this.

The

incident

that

are

following,

the

inciting

death

fascinating,

but

deliberate

and

meticulous

and

savvy

about

how

gets

the

answers

eventually

gets

way

that

entertaining,

that

informative,

that's

unexpected,

and

thought

that

that's

tough

do.

demonstrates

much

skill.

是的。而且我们能说一句编辑得非常出色吗？非常出色。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

And

can

also

say

beautifully

edited?

beautifully.

人物刻画与犯罪支线的权衡

我是说，单从专业层面上讲，这简直值得所有赞誉，因为[哼笑]把这些故事串联在一起真的、真的不容易。我知道他很有才华，但很抱歉，你刚才一提到调色，我脑子里就不断浮现出鲍伯·罗斯（Bob Ross）的画面，现在挥之不去了，[笑声] 我脑海里就有点浮现出他在弄那些色调和[笑声]“快乐的小云朵”。但话说回来，我觉得有两点实际上让我有些困扰：在不剧透太多的情况下，有这么一个节点，他确实把镜头拉远了，去探究与扎克扯上关系的那些其他家伙的生活；而正因为我们对布雷勒一家（the Brelers）已经了解得如此透彻，我……我觉得那种聚焦程度不够令人满意。我们对他们了解得刚好足够，又不算特别充分，但又稍微有点过多。我觉得当他在中段开始罗列各个角色所犯下的一连串罪行，以及判决结果和他们服刑的时间时，其中有一种某种程度的千篇一律感。那对你起作用了吗？你明白我在说什么吗？

英文原文

>> I

mean,

just

professional

level,

mean,

all

the

flowers

because

[snorts]

not

easy

put

these

stories

together.

know

he's

brilliant,

but

I'm

sorry.

keep

picturing

Bob

Ross

when

you

talk

about

the

mixing

colors

now.

can't

get

out

head,

[laughter]

which

I'm

kind

picturing

him

doing

the

temps

and

[laughter]

happy

little

clouds.

But

but

yeah,

think

couple

things

that

bothered

actually

were

there's

point

without

giving

away

too

much

where

does

kind

pan

out

and

gets

into

the

lives

these

other

guys

with

whom

Zach

has

become

involved

and

because

have

gotten

know

the

Brelers

well.

didn't

find

the

level

focus

satisfying.

know

just

enough

and

not

quite

enough

about

them

but

little

too

much.

felt

when

started

getting

into

kind

the

litany

crimes

that

various

characters

have

committed

the

middle

and

their

resolutions

and

their

times

jail,

there

was

certain

sameness

it,

which

did

that

work

for

you

know

what

I'm

talking

about?

嗯，我倒有点不同意见。我挺喜欢那部分的。我明白你说的关于对罪犯的刻画不如对布雷勒一家的刻画那么充实丰满，但面对一组愿意交谈的消息源，和另一组不愿交谈、或者愿意交谈但带着极其严格限制的消息源，又怎么可能做到一样呢？话虽如此，我仍然被对那些罪犯的描摹所吸引，而且我认为他们为叙事增添了内容。他们给讲故事的过程带来了一些非常耐人寻味的东西。在为这期播客做准备、试着回想哪些部分真正打动我时，我记下来的其中一点就是，我喜欢对扎克混在一起的那两个罪犯的刻画。我喜欢它们的原因在于，第一，我认为总的来说，这些家伙从表面上看明显就是坏人，非常卑劣，而且显然在撒谎。你哪怕单从监控录像里，就能获得关于他们行动策略的细节；你能了解到他们两人的个人背景故事，而正是从那里你理解了像南亚人迁徙到乌干达、随后被驱逐出乌干达最终辗转移民到伦敦的历程……

英文原文

>> Yeah,

kind

disagree.

liked

that

part.

hear

what

you're

saying

about

how

the

portraits

the

criminals

were

not

robust

the

portraits

the

Brelers,

but

how

could

they

when

had

one

group

sources

who

would

talk

and

one

group

sources

who

wouldn't

who

would

talk

but

with

heavy

constraints.

That

said,

was

still

fascinated

the

portraits

the

criminals

and

think

they

added

something

the

narrative.

They

did

something

really

interesting

the

storytelling.

and

prepping

for

this

podcast,

when

was

trying

think

what

parts

really

worked

for

me,

one

the

things

wrote

down

was

that

liked

the

portrait

these

two

criminals

that

Zach

has

fallen

with.

And

the

reason

why

them

because

number

one,

think

general,

these

guys

are

the

surface

and

clearly

bad

people

and

slimy

and

they're

clearly

lying.

And

you

get

even

just

through

surveillance

footage

details

about

their

maneuvers.

you

get

individual

backstories

for

both

them

and

that's

when

you

get

the

understanding

South

Asian

migration

Uganda

the

way

they

were

then

exiled

from

Uganda

ended

migrating

London

引入了当代的纽约转折……

英文原文

>> bringing

the

contemporary

New

York

twist

引入当代的纽约转折。我想其中一个消息源是 My 的祖父……

英文原文

>> bringing

the

contemporary

New

York

twist

think

one

the

sources

My's

grandfather

我想是他父亲……

英文原文

>> I

think

it's

his

father

他的父亲。所以除了感到惊喜并觉得“哇我学到了好多东西”之外，对我而言，喜欢那些罪犯背景故事的原因在于，当你随后闪回到现在时，它带来了一种沉重感，让你不禁觉得：“等一下。扎克居然一直和这些家伙混在一起。”

英文原文

>> his

father

and

addition

being

surprised

and

delighted

I'm

learning

much

for

the

reason

why

love

those

backtories

those

criminal

that

brings

sense

gravity

when

you

then

flash

back

the

present

and

you're

like,

"Wait

second.

Zach

has

been

hanging

out

with

these

guys.

真正的地下犯罪世界。

英文原文

>> The

true

underworld.

真正的地下犯罪世界。这些人到底是谁，他们在自己的……中如此绝望……

英文原文

>> The

true

underworld

who

are

these

people

are

desperate

their

以他们自己的方式……因为他们也都在以自己的方式奋力挣扎。跟扎克类似，他们只是不断做出糟糕、不道德的选择。他们对暴力习以为常。”所以我很喜欢那个部分。这让人感觉并不是一种泄气，因为一旦你了解了那些背景故事，它就会为我们对扎克的理解增添另一层复杂性。而且还有这些人是否会受到法律制裁的问题。一次又一次发生的情况是，罪行被犯下了，然而他们依然逍遥法外。这给整本书增添了另一个疑问。我觉得那部分对我来说确实是最引人入胜的之一。也就是听起来那场调查有多么拙劣，而且还行动迟缓，就像有某种感觉，伦敦警署就是和英国地下世界——或者说伦敦地下世界——纠缠得太深了，以至于……

英文原文

own

ways

for

they're

striving

their

own

ways.

Similar

Zach,

they

just

have

made

continually

bad

immoral

choices.

They're

okay

with

violence."

So,

liked

that

component.

didn't

feel

discouragement

because

once

you

get

those

backtories,

adds

another

layer

complication

our

understanding

Zach.

And

then

also

this

question

will

these

people

face

justice.

We've

you've

gotten

time

and

time

again

the

crimes

are

committed

and

yet

they're

still

out

and

about.

That

adds

another

question

the

book.

that

think

that

part

was

really

one

the

most

fascinating.

which

was

just

how

sounds

bungled

the

investigation

was

but

also

sluggish

there

was

sort

the

sense

that

the the

police

department

London

was

just

entwined

with

the

British

under

the

London

underworld

that

你知道，并没有出现那种你所期望的、真正试图查明扎克究竟遭遇了什么的冲劲。

英文原文

>> you

know

there

wasn't

the

same

sort

energy

that

you

would

expect

really

trying

figure

out

What

happened

Zach?

没错。

英文原文

>> Yep.

这个孩子确实是在非常离奇的情况下坠亡的。

英文原文

>> This

kid

who

really

did

plummet

his

death

under

very

weird

circumstances.

是的。读这本书很难不感到愤怒……

英文原文

>> Yeah.

It's

hard

read

this

book

and

not

feel

outraged

我觉得那非常震撼有力。

英文原文

>> and

thought

that

was

super

effective.

我的意思是，读这样一本书时你会想到的一件事是，如果要承受像那对兄弟那样被看待的目光，该有多难。哪怕像基夫那样充满敬意，那也会是一件非常非常艰难的事。我想知道他们是否读过这本书，我想知道他们对它有何感受。但与此同时，［哧鼻轻笑］我觉得他们对他在书中所讲述的故事的最终结果也只能感到欣慰。

英文原文

>> I

mean,

one

thing

you

think

about

reading

book

this

how

hard

would

perceived

the

way

the

brothers

are.

even

respectful

Keefe

is,

would

really

hard

thing.

wonder

they

read

the

book.

wonder

how

they

feel

about

it.

But

the

same

time,

[snorts]

feel

they

could

only

satisfied

with

the

ultimate

outcome

the

story

tells.

读者反馈与主题探讨

等等，我们聊关于这本书的总体想法和所有那些内容已经聊了挺长时间了，但我［音乐］觉得我们应该先稍作休息，等回来的时候，我想多谈谈那些令我们印象深刻的主题。我们会进入剧透环节。嗯，这个读书会渐入佳境了，不过我们应该先休息一下。［音乐］

英文原文

>> Wait,

we've

been

talking

for

while

about

just

our

general

thoughts

about

this

book

and

all

that

stuff,

but

[music]

think

should

take

quick

break

and

when

come

back,

want

talk

about

themes

that

stood

out

us.

We'll

get

into

spoiler

territory.

Well,

this

book

club

going

places,

but

should

take

quick

break

first.

[music]

欢迎回来。这里是书评播客。我是 MJ·富兰克林。我正在和我的同事萨迪·斯坦以及珍妮弗·萨莱交谈。我们正在讨论《伦敦陷落》。在我们回到演播室的对话之前，我想先分享一些读者的留言，因为我们现在上线了一篇题为“与《书评》一起阅读帕特里克·拉登·基夫的《伦敦陷落》读书会”的文章。来自世界各地的读者都在那里分享他们的想法，我想转达几条我非常喜欢的留言。西雅图的梅根写道：“作为一名家长，这本书扣人心弦，归根到底还有点令人恐惧。我和我丈夫都读了这本书，并且对那些用心良苦的父母产生了共鸣。我们内心震颤，扪心自问：我们究竟能在多大程度上真正了解自己的孩子？我们到底能对他们的价值观和人生轨迹施加多大影响？”所以这触及了这本书中那种萦绕心头的育儿存在主义思考。

与此同时，堪萨斯城的唐娜写道：“拥有一个你自以为非常了解的儿子，却在他疑似自杀后发现他其实是个陌生人，这令人心碎；但了解到为了塑造一个全新的身份，他竟然陷得如此之深，这更是令人难以释怀。”作者出色地描绘了一幅时代背景，展现了伦敦的寡头们在多大程度上颠覆了当地社会的相当一部分群体及其所处的生存环境。这本书对迄今未曾公之于众的伦敦社会层面作出了非常值得一读的洞察。这是一本极佳的读物。也有少数几位批评者。伦敦的詹姆斯写道：“这本书在记录扎克究竟遭遇了什么、以及布雷勒一家所陷入的非同寻常的处境这些细节方面非常棒，但我对基夫试图让这本书超越这一范围的做法持保留态度，就好像那些内容还不够似的。书名让人联想到杰拉德·巴特勒的那部 B 级片，而且对我来说，对伦敦的刻画显得俗套且缺乏细致入微的层次。”不过，其他人还是非常喜欢它，比如南希，她写道：“我是个狂热的虚构小说读者，但我发现基夫的书信息量太丰富了。我读了《什么也别说》。我读了《伦敦陷落》，现在我正在读《疼痛帝国》。我喜欢基夫的一点在于，他把这些书写得就像虚构小说一样。它们完全抓住了我的兴趣，让我迫不及待想知道接下来会发生什么。此外，我还学到了很多东西。”这些就是其中的一部分留言。再次提醒，线上正在进行讨论，所以欢迎大家继续交流。不过现在，回到我们演播室的讨论。

我们回来了。在休息之前，我们正在聊各自的总体想法。现在，我想了解你们最感兴趣的是什么。这本书里有很多可以深入着眼的内容。这本书探讨了家庭。这是一座城市的肖像。这是一幅关于技术与监控的肖像。它是关于犯罪的。其中还包含着这起死亡谜案。这里发生了太多事情。我很好奇这本书给你们留下最深印象的是什么。

英文原文

And

we're

back.

This

the

book

review

podcast.

I'm

Franklin.

I'm

talking

colleagues

Sadie

Stein

and

Jennifer

Salai.

And

are

discussing

London

Falling.

Before

back

our

conversation

the

studio,

want

some

reader

comments

because

have

right

now

article

headlined

book

club

read

London

Falling

Patrick

Grouden

Keefe

with

the

book

review.

Readers

from

all

over

the

world

are

sharing

their

thoughts

there

and

wanted

pass

along

few

comments

that

really

loved.

Megan

from

Seattle

writes,

"This

book

was

gripping

and

ultimately

bit

terrifying

parent.

husband

and

both

read

and

the

well-meaning

parents.

were

shaken

asking

ourselves

how

well

ever

know

our

kids?

How

much

influence

actually

exert

over

their

values

and

life

course?

that's

getting

this

kind

existential

haunting

parenting

idea

this

book.

Meanwhile,

Donna

from

Kansas

City

writes,

"To

have

son

you

think

you

know

but

find

out

after

apparent

suicide

that

was

stranger

heartbreaking,

but

learn

the

depths

went

order

create

whole

new

persona

haunting."

The

author

paints

brilliant

backdrop

the

extent

which

the

oligarchs

London

have

upended

swath

its

society

and

the

environment

which

exists.

This

book

well

worthwhile

glimpse

into

the

hairto

for

element

London

society

not

previously

display.

excellent

read,

there

were

few

detractors.

James

from

London

writes,

"The

book

great

the

specifics

what

happened

Zach

and

about

the

extraordinary

situation

the

Brelers

found

themselves

in,

but

take

issue

with

the

way

Kee

tries

make

the

book

about

something

than

that,

though

that

weren't

enough.

The

book's

title

calls

mind

the

Gerard

Butler

Beam

movie,

and

the

portrayal

London

felt

cliched

and

lacking

nuance.

Still,

others

loved

it,

Nancy,

who

wrote,

"I'm

huge

fiction

reader,

but

just

find

that

Ke's

books

are

informative.

read

Say

Nothing.

read

London

Falling,

and

now

I'm

reading

Empire

Pain.

And

what

love

about

Kee

the

way

writes

the

books

they're

fiction.

They

totally

keep

interest

what

going

happen

next.

Plus,

learned

much."

So,

those

are

just

few

comments.

Again,

there

conversation

going

online,

continue

the

conversation.

But

now,

back

our

discussion

the

studio.

And

we're

back.

Before

the

break,

were

talking

about

our

general

thoughts.

Now,

want

know

what

you

were

most

interested

in.

And

there's

lot

this

book

potentially

land

on.

This

book

tackles

family.

It's

portrait

city.

portrait

technology

and

surveillance.

It's

about

crime.

There

this

death

mystery

it.

There's

much

happening

here.

I'm

curious

what

stood

out

you

with

this

book.

我真正喜欢的一个方面是关于这个家庭的一些背景故事，尤其是雷尔的父亲，他有着非常引人入胜的经历，在伦敦成为了一位非常显赫且深谙媒体之道的拉比，但他自己也有秘密，而她必然不情愿将这些揭示出来。他们是注重隐私的人，但他们被这起案件以及对伦敦警察厅的不满所迫，把这个故事付诸笔端。我喜欢那种张力。我希望能看到更多这样的内容。正如我所说的，我也对学校方面的一些事情很感兴趣。这是……

英文原文

>> One

thing

really

some

the

backstory

about

the

family,

especially

Relle's

father,

who

has

very

interesting

life,

who

becomes

very

prominent

and

very

media

savvy

rabbi

London,

but

who

has

secrets

his

own,

which

she

necessarily

reluctant

reveal.

They're

private

people,

but

they

are

pushed

this

case

and

their

lack

satisfaction

with

the

Matt

police

commit

this

story

the

page.

that

tension.

wanted

it.

said,

was

also

interested

some

the

school

stuff.

This

是的。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

是的。因为这是一个很好的切入点。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

Cuz

this

good

point.

这种现象我们在纽约也同样存在。这里有很多财富。巨额的财富。比以前更多了。自我成长以来，这座城市发生了很大变化。学校也变了，而且存在着一种执念：一定要进对的学校，以及什么被视为二流学校，这真的是一种对微小差异的鄙视。这些全都是非常昂贵、顶级的学校，但在什么是顶级、什么是二流之间却存在着巨大的势利眼态度，这也在这本书中体现了出来。其中的大主题之一就是扎克没能考进他哥哥就读的那所名校，因此不得不去了这种新贵学校，在那里他遇到了很多寡头的孩子，周围的人都富有得多，但这所学校被认为没那么有声望，从某种意义上说，根据一种解读，他的命运也就是在那时被注定了，我觉得这非常耐人寻味，而且对生活在当下的纽约市来说，这种体会再熟悉不过了。

英文原文

>> This

something

have

New

York,

too.

There's

lot

wealth

here.

lot

wealth.

than

there

used

be.

The

city

has

changed

lot

since

was

growing

up.

the

schools

have

changed

and

there's

this

fixation

going

the

right

school

and

what's

regarded

second

tier

school

and

it's

really

this

kind

contempt

small

differences.

These

are

all

very

expensive

fancy

schools

but

there's

tremendous

snobbery

about

what's

considered

first

rate

and

which

second

rate

and

that

comes

this

book

too.

One

the

big

themes

that

Zach

doesn't

get

this

one

prestigious

school

that

his

older

brother

attends

and

then

has

this

kind

new

money

school

which

where

encounters

lot

the

kids

oligarchs

and

people

are

much

richer

but

the

school

isn't

considered

prestigious

and

kind

that's

when

sense

according

one

interpretation

the

cards

are

dealt

for

him

and

that

found

very

interesting

and

all

too

cognate

living

contemporary

very

New

York

City.

是的。对于那部分，你有什么感受，珍？我的意思是，在某种程度上，我认为这至少是书中呈现出的拉歇尔的解读：当她儿子开始去读这所不如他被拒的那所私校好的私立学校、并开始我想是和这些寡头的孩子们混在一起时，她注意到了儿子发生了 180 度的大转变，并开始渴望拥有那种随手可得的现金和金钱，尽管他的父母本身就非常富裕——我们应该说明一下，雷尔是一名记者，而父亲马修在金融行业工作。我想是在伦敦金融城工作，对吧？我对那一点深感着迷，因为从某种程度上说，它被呈现为扎克近乎第二个起源故事，即他在这样一个……

英文原文

>> Yeah.

What

did

you

feel

about

that

element,

Jen?

mean

certain

extent

that

was

the

interpretation

think

Rashelle

least

the

way

it's

presented

the

book

that

she

noticed

180

change

her

son

when

started

going

this

private

school

that

wasn't

good

the

private

school

that

got

rejected

from

and

started

hanging

out

guess

with

these

oligarchs

children

and

started

wanting

have

the

kind

flat

cash

and

money

that

even

though

his

parents

were

very

well

off,

should

say

that

Relle

journalist

and

Matthew

the

father

works

finance.

guess

works

the

city,

right?

And

that

was

fascinated

that

because

presented

way

almost

second

origin

story

for

Zach

that

was

brought

据我们所知，就成长在一个非常充满爱的家庭，父母真正关心他，关心他的福祉，关心他的心理健康。而事情发生变化是在他……我的意思是他当时还很年轻。我想……

英文原文

>> in

this

from

what

can

tell

just

really

loving

family,

parents

who

really

cared

about

him,

cared

about

his

well-being,

cared

about

his

mental

health.

And

things

changed

when

was

mean

was

quite

young.

think

在他故事的终点，他也才 19 岁。所以我的意思是，这很容易只是一个持续几年的阶段，一个青少年在其中变得有点浑蛋，变得对金钱极度痴迷，然后又转向其他事情。但这件事情的悲剧性之一就在于，我们无法看到那样的转变演进。

英文原文

>> he's

only

by at

the

end

his

story.

mean

this

could

easily

have

been

stage

few

years

where

teenager

kind

becomes

jerk

and

becomes

obsessed

with

money

and

then

moves

something

else.

But

part

the

tragedy

don't

get

see

that

evolution.

确实如此。还有一点——我并不是想为英国的私立学校体系辩护，但我也不想让扎克完全脱卸责任、只推托说是学校里发生的事情导致的，因为我认为帕特里克·拉登·基夫很好地说明了扎克小时候是个什么样的人。他一直都有这样的一面：虽然年轻且富有魅力，但他似乎总是想去压别人一头，哪怕是在自己的讲故事能力上，甚至在家庭活动中的自身表现上。所以有这么一种倾向，也许在私立学校里被加剧了，但我认为私立学校并不必然造就了这样一种危机：在其中扎克总是试图去赢取……

英文原文

>> Exactly.

And

there's

something

not

want

defend

the

British

private

school

system,

but

don't

want

let

Zach

totally

off

the

hook

and

just

say

was

what

happened

school

because

think

Patrick

Goden

Keefe

does

good

job

saying

here's

how

Zach

was

kid.

always

had

this

thing

where

while

young

charismatic

did

always

seem

trying

one

even

his

own

storytelling,

even

his

own

performances

family

events.

there's

this

thing

that

maybe

was

exacerbated

private

school,

but

don't

think

private

school

necessarily

created

the

crisis

which

Zach

always

trying

earn

叛逆与伪装

更多钱去炫耀，诸如此类的事。这里面有性格方面的原因，我们无法深入探讨，帕特里克·R·基夫（Patrick Radden Keefe）没有更明确地指出来，这非常好，因为那只能是推测，只是毫无根据的揣测。正如萨迪（Sadie）所指出的，悲剧在于我们不知道扎克（Zach）本会长成什么样。这完全可能只是一段青春期的插曲，就像青少年总是想要争强好胜、出人头地那样。而且还有一个细节，他的母亲说过：“面对开明的父母，你到底要怎么叛逆呢？”他不知怎么就表现出对普京和寡头的这种表演式的狂热，以及——

英文原文

more money to be showboat, all of that stuff. There's there are personality stuff that we just can't get into that it's great that Patrick R and Keef didn't more pointedly say because that would be conjecture just poor speculation because as you point out Satie the tragedy is we don't know how Zach would have turned out. This could easily have been just a teenage blip in the way that teenagers are always trying to like be the best, be on top. And there's also the point where his mother says, "How do you really rebel against liberal parents?" He kind of develops this performative love of Putin and oligarchs and

以及挥霍无度的财富。面对宽容的父母，这算是他少数能用来真正震惊和惹怒他们的事情之一。我们都见过孩子做出各种荒唐事。而他竟然能够让成年人相信他的这套幻想，这也是整件事真正诡异的地方之一。

英文原文

>> and outrageous wealth. Kind of one of the few things he could do with permissive parents to to really shock and upset them. And and we've all seen kids do all kinds of absurd things. And the fact that he is able to convince grown-ups of of his fantasies is is part of what's really strange about the whole story.

详细跟我说说这个。哪些成年人？你是说像他的家人吗？还是指那些罪犯？

英文原文

>> Well, tell me more about this. Which grown-ups? Do you mean like his family? Do you mean the criminals?

是的，我说的是他卷入这些地下世界、这些可疑人物的方式。这确实很奇怪，因为这些人都是中年男人。他甚至还和其中一个人的女儿同校。所以从年龄上讲，他们真的大到可以当他父亲了。父母在某一刻确实想过：“是啊，他们想和一个十几岁的少年混在一起，这有点奇怪。”而我作为父母，觉得我对此肯定会有所疑问的。对。

英文原文

>> Yeah, I'm I'm talking about the way he becomes involved with these kind of underworld, these shady figures. It's It is strange cuz these are middle-aged men. He even goes to school with a daughter of one of them. So, they're literally old enough to be his father. And the parents at one point do think, "Yeah, it's kind of odd that they want to hang out with a teenager." And I, as a parent, feel like I would have some questions about that. Yep.

你懂的，随便吧。他在指导他们。这是个奇怪的情况。而且你了解得越多，它不但没变得合理，反而更诡异。

英文原文

>> You know, whatever. He's mentoring them. It's a strange situation. And and the more you learn, it doesn't get less strange.

对，这也是让我感到心碎的一部分，就像马修（Matthew）和拉谢尔（Rachelle）显然知道有些不对劲，但到了这个阶段，他们觉得他法律上已经18岁了。他是被允许做这些的。他说那些人是他的导师，他带着所有这些钱出现。他在某个阶段看起来确实工作得非常努力。我们不知道他具体在做什么，但他迷茫了那么久之后，似乎终于开始发奋努力了。与此同时，你看到了沙姆吉（Shamji）和夏尔马（Sharma），书中呈现了关于他们的多重画像。起初，他们摆出一副“哦，我们只是被骗了，我们不知情”的姿态。然后你读到他们一开始确实稍微有点被蒙骗。但接着当你继续读下去时，你能看出他们其实对内情一清二楚。他们知道他在撒谎，但他们需要他充当一个为自身利益服务的傀儡。他们需要他把这场骗局演下去，这样他们就能辩称：“实际上，我们做这一切是因为我们没想到，我们不知道等等等等。”所以对我来说，这真是一幅引人入胜、极具多面性的人物刻画。是的，这一点说得很对，萨迪。

英文原文

>> Yeah, that's part of the heartbreaking thing for me, which is like Matthew and Relle clearly know something is a little bit off, but at this point, they're like, he's 18 legally. He's allowed to do this. He says that his mentors, he is showing up with all this money. He does at certain point seem to be working very hard. We don't know what he's working on, but he does seem to be finally applying himself after being lost for so long. Meanwhile, you're seeing Shamji and Sharma, and you get multiple portraits of them. At first, they're like, "Oh, we were just duped. We didn't know." And then you hear about how initially they were a little bit duped. And then you, as you're reading, you can tell they knew what was going on. They knew he was lying, but they needed him to be a figure for a purpose for their own gains. They needed him to continue the ruse so they could say, "Actually, we're doing all this because we didn't expect and we didn't know blah blah blah blah." And so that's just like a fascinating multi-layered portrait to me. Yeah, that's a great point, Sadie.

是的。这本书很大篇幅都是关于一个孩子在扮演成年人，以及人们在多大程度上买账，当然他以为所有人……以为一切全都在他的掌控之下——

英文原文

>> Yeah. So much of the book is about a about a kid kind of playing at being a grown-up and to what extent people buy it and and he of course thinks everyone he's he's totally running everything

但到头来究竟是谁在掌控？

英文原文

>> and then who is in the end?

这正是萨迪的意思。珍（Jen），书中有什么让你特别印象深刻的内容吗？

英文原文

>> So that's Sadi's point. Jen, is there something that really stood out in the book to you?

有。我想提一下这个，我也很好奇你们两位对此怎么看，那就是在好几个节点上，布雷勒夫妇得知扎克向其他人吐露过自己感到多么沮丧和不知所措。显而易见，沙姆吉有他自己的动机去夸大这一点。

英文原文

Yeah. And you know, I'll bring it up and I'm curious what both of you think about this, which is at various points, the Brelers learn that Zach was telling stuff to people about how depressed and overwhelmed he felt. And obviously, Shamji has his own reasons for playing this up.

所以这又几乎像个镜子迷宫。就像这其中到底有多少是真实的。但他们也与其他一些人聊过。有一个他结识的女性叫扎米拉（Zamira），她说起自己如何——

英文原文

>> So again, it's almost like a hall of mirrors. It's like how much of this is. But there were other people that they talked to. There's a woman that he befriended Zamira who talks about how she exchanged

发短信——

英文原文

>> text messages

和——

英文原文

>> with

扎克，他说：“哦，我、我只是……我不知道是怎么了，他……他看起来非常困惑，但也感到不堪重负和心烦意乱。”他向她透露了这些，即便他当时还在她面前假装自己是寡头的孩子，你知道的。所以，这……

英文原文

>> Zach and he says, "Oh, I I just I I don't know what's he he seems so confused but also overwhelmed and upset." And he's revealing this to her even though he's pretending to her that he's a oligarch's child, you know. So, it's

而且起初他是不是还在撩她？

英文原文

>> And isn't he kind of flirting with her too initially?

嗯，当时是他父母觉得他可能跟这个成年女性有染，对此他们也是相当放任不管的。应该说明这一点，但到头来，当他们拿这事找她对质时，她感到相当震惊，觉得他只是个小男孩。

英文原文

>> Well, that was his parents think he might be involved with this grown-up woman, which they're also pretty handsoff about. It it should be said, but in the end, and she's kind of appalled when they confront her with that, like he's a he's a little boy.

他还是个男孩。是的。不，我觉得更多的是他显然处于痛苦之中。至少我最初读到时是这么理解的。

英文原文

>> He's a boy. Yeah. No, it's it's I guess it was just more that he was clearly suffering. At least that's how I read it at first.

他显然在承受痛苦。感觉他无法倾诉。显然，任何家里有青少年的人都知道，青少年不一定会向父母敞开心扉，但他觉得他无法向父母倾诉正在发生的事情或自己的感受。他向生活中的其他成年人吐露了这些心声。话说我们现在要进入剧透环节了吗，还是还没到？

英文原文

>> He was clearly suffering. Felt like he couldn't. And obviously, like anybody who has a teenager knows that teenagers don't necessarily open up to their parents, but he felt he couldn't open up to his parents about what was going on or how he was feeling. He was saying stuff to these other other adults in his life. And then are we talking about spoilers yet or not yet?

我想差不多了。听众朋友们，现在进入转折点。我们马上要深入剧透区域了。不过在开始之前，在告别那些不想被剧透的朋友之前，你们还有什么最后想说的话吗？

英文原文

>> I think yeah. So listeners, this is our pivot. We're about to dig into spoiler territory. But before we do that, are there any last things you want to say before we say goodbye to our spoiler-free friends?

去读这本书吧。

英文原文

>> Read the book.

去读这本书。去读这本书。

英文原文

>> Read the book. Read the book.

去读这本书。

英文原文

>> Read the book.

好的。既然如此，我们马上要进入剧透了。

英文原文

>> Okay. With that, we're about to dive into spoilers.

死因调查与坠楼之谜

让我们进入剧透环节吧。珍，交给你了。好的。那么，我该说明一下，在书的后半部分，对扎克的遭遇进行了一场死因调查。布雷勒夫妇对他的遭遇有他们自己的推论，大体上是说——扎克太害怕了，因为夏尔马和沙姆吉发现了他一直在对他们撒谎，以至于当他从夏尔马公寓的阳台跳下时，是因为他试图逃离夏尔马，基本上是因为他处于危险之中——

英文原文

>> Let's dive into spoilers. Jen, take it away. Okay. So, so I should say toward the end of the book there's an inquest into what happened to Zach. And the Brelers have their theory about what happened to him, which is essentially that Zach was so terrified because Sharma and Shamji found out that he had been lying to them that when he jumped from the balcony of Sharma's apartment, it was because he was trying to escape Sharma essentially that he was in danger

夏尔马可是以极度暴力闻名的。

英文原文

>> who had a reputation for extreme violence.

确实如此。是的。

英文原文

>> Exactly. Yeah.

书里有这么个细节，他们说类似于“把刀烧热”之类的话。

英文原文

>> There's this detail where they're like, "Heat up the knives or something."

噢，我想这是英国人之间使用的一种表达。

英文原文

>> Oh, that's an expression, I guess, that was used in among the British.

好的。

英文原文

>> Okay.

或者我认为是伦敦黑帮的黑话，“把刀烧热”。听起来真的很凶险。

英文原文

>> Or the London underworld, I think, to heat up the knives. It's really ominous.

是的。扎克对此心知肚明。在这点上，我认为书中对沙姆吉和夏尔马的大篇幅刻画起到了作用，因为读到这里，你已经意识到：好吧，这些人是什么事都干得出来的。因此扎克在绝望之中——按照这种推论——试图逃跑。

英文原文

>> Yeah. And Zach knew about this. And at this point, this is where I think the extended portrait of Shamji and Sharma is helpful because at this point, you have a sense that, okay, this is what these people are willing to do. And so Zach in his desperation is the theory is trying to flee.

这正是……是的，完全没错。这就是他们的推论。所以拉谢尔在死因调查中作证时表示，在她看来，扎克告诉……事实上他向所有这些人说起自己感到——你知道的——基本上是想自杀，他这其实是在博取同情，这是一种为了让自己显得人性化而博取同情的恳求。而我想的是，我不知道。我不知道。思考这件事很有意思，因为我想我不会理所当然地认为，如果扎克卷入了与这些地下人物的关系，他会有任何理由觉得那些人会同情他。如果他展现出自己这极度脆弱的一面，我认为对我来说，这只会加深关于扎克究竟是一个怎样的人的谜团。我是说，也许他并不是……你知道，他可能还没有完全成长为一个成熟的大人。

英文原文

>> This is Yes, exactly. This is the theory. And so Rashelle when she's talking to the inquest, she says that the way that she sees Zach's telling the fact that he told all these people about feeling, you know, feeling suicidal essentially that he was basically pleading for sympathy that it was a plea for sympathy to humanize himself. And I thought, I don't know. I don't know. It's It's just interesting to think about because I guess I wouldn't necessarily think if Zach is involved with these underworld figures that there would be any reason for him to think that they would feel sympathy for him. If he shows this this extremely vulnerable side of himself, it just adds to the puzzle, I think, for me, of who Zach was. I mean, maybe he wasn't, you know, he was still not maybe fully formed as a grown-up.

是的。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

所以，你说了这只会加深谜团。我们仍然不能确定扎克究竟是怎样的人，他是谁。这引出了我的提问，既然我们已经进入了剧透部分，你们对这本书的结尾有什么感觉？结尾基本上就是我们没有得到任何确切答案。我们得到了强烈的揣测，得到了有力的推论——是的，他当时试图逃跑。而且悲剧的一部分在于，从尸检以及他遗体被发现时的伤势来看，扎克似乎就差一点点就能落入泰晤士河。他刚好偏离了水面。他撞到了部分河堤，正是这处的伤势让他受创严重，最终基本上是溺水身亡——

英文原文

>> So, you said it just adds to the puzzle. We're still not sure how Zach really was, who he was. And that leads me to ask, now that we're in our spoiler section, how you felt about the end of the book, which is basically we don't get any answers. We get strong speculation. We get strong theories that yeah, he was trying to escape. And part of the tragedy is it seems based off of the autopsy and the wounds on his body when it was found that Zach just barely missed the temps. He just barely missed the water. He hit part of the embankment and that is what injured him enough that he drowned basically

而且他本身是个游泳健将。他们指出了这一点，然后留给你的可能性是，这也是一对极度悲痛的父母，正竭尽所能以任何方式来接受现实。而且这也许是一个牵强的推论。我是说，他把这扇门留了一条缝。他们……父母的反应各不相同。父亲展开了近乎法医式的调查。他开始记录一切。那是他应对这件事的方式。母亲的反应也许更加情绪化。我想说，有一点你绝对能够体会到，正如我之前提到的，我一直在深入思考，如果作为父母，本来本质上是注重隐私的人，却要以这种方式曝光自己，把家庭向外公开，势必让自己面临指责，同时也暴露了自己的儿子——一个表现得极其复杂且困扰的孩子——那会是什么感受。但我认为他们本可以——

英文原文

>> and and he was a strong swimmer. They make the point and and you're left with the possibility that these are also desperately grieving parents who are are trying to come to terms with this any way they can. And and maybe this is a far-fetched theory. I mean, he leaves that door open, a crack. They they the parents respond differently. The father undertakes an almost forensic examination. He starts recording everything. That's his way of dealing with it. The mother's is maybe more emotional. The one thing you do come away with for sure I would say as I mentioned I've thought a great deal about how it would feel to be the parents who are essentially private to expose yourself in this way open your family up necessarily leaving yourselves open to criticism and also your son who comes off as a very complex and troubled kid. But I think they could

只能满足于这样一个事实：现在确确实实有数百万人正在读到这个故事；只要大家知道了他们儿子的名字，就会觉得这些人是坏人，觉得这个案子处理不当，而且他的死是一场悲剧。我觉得，你还能再要求什么呢？他们已经不可能让他死而复生了。

英文原文

only be satisfied with the fact that millions literally people are reading about this story now and to the extent they know their son's name, they think that these were bad guys, that this case was mishandled and that his death was a tragedy. And and I think what more could you want? They're not going to get him back.

你觉得呢，珍？你觉得这本书的结尾怎么样？你觉得这个结局令人满意吗？有没有什么让你有所收获的地方？我的意思是，读到最后我只是感到极度的悲伤，尽管——再次重申——我知道我们一直在这样评价基夫，那就是他确实是一位极其出色的讲故事高手。所以你会忍不住一页一页翻下去。讨论这样一本书感觉很奇妙，因为它的核心归根结底是一场家庭悲剧，但它的架构方式却像是一部真实罪案小说，

英文原文

>> What about you, Jen? How did you find the conclusion of the book? Did you find it satisfying just where we end up? Is there something you'll take away? I mean, I just felt so profoundly sad at the end of it, even though, again, I know we keep saying this about Keefe, which is that he's just such an expert storyteller. So, you just keep turning the pages. It's weird to talk about a book where at the center of it is ultimately a family tragedy, but because it's constructed in a way like a a a true crime novel

让你试图拼凑出究竟发生了什么。不过在读完之后，基夫得出的结论——而且他非常清楚地说明了自己是如何得出那个结论的——你知道，你会觉得，好吧，那确实讲得通，同时又极度令人悲伤；我依然不知道扎克究竟是个怎样的人，也许扎克自己都不知道自己是谁。另一件同样让我印象深刻的事——我觉得基夫在这方面做得很好——就是他们发现扎克 iPad 上的搜索记录，或者说他们最终从警方那里拿到了搜索记录，大概是在事后，

英文原文

>> that you're you're trying to piece together what happened. And at the end of it though, the conclusion I think that Keefe comes to and he's very clear about how he came to that conclusion. you know, you feel like, okay, that that does make sense and it's profoundly sad and I still don't know who Zach was and maybe Zach didn't know who he was. The one other thing that also stuck out to me and and Keith I think does a good job with this is where they find the searches on Zach's iPad or they get the searches from the police maybe eventually it's like after the fact

记录了他当时查阅的那些东西，全都是各种随意的零碎内容，你知道，比如一些色情内容，

英文原文

>> of just things that he was looking up and it's just all the random stuff you know some porn

关于衣服之类的东西，就是青少年会去查的那类东西，但所有这些拼凑在一起，都无法形成关于这个少年究竟是谁的连贯画像，但这很合理，因为他当时还那么年轻。

英文原文

stuff about maybe clothes like just things that teenagers would look up but none of it really adds up to a coherent view of who this kid was, but it makes sense because he was still so young.

基夫并没有过多聚焦在社交媒体在这一切中扮演的角色上，或者说至少没有在这方面着墨过重，但我认为这在很大程度上笼罩着整件事。这种营造形象的概念，以及某些孩子对其极易受影响的程度。

英文原文

>> Keith doesn't focus too much or or he's not heavy-handed at any rate about the role of social media in any of this, but it's sort of hanging over it, I think, a lot. This idea of creating images and the degree to which some kids are very susceptible to it.

说得太对了。而且这不仅仅——我有一段引文想读一下——这不仅仅关乎社交媒体以及为孩子们营造形象，而是关乎这样一个事实：这是一本关于一连串冒名骗子（imposters）的书。帕特里克·拉登·基夫写道：“要确切了解河滨步道（Riverwalk）那一夜发生了什么如此之难，一个原因在于扎克绝非那间公寓里唯一的冒名骗子。维林达·夏尔马（Verinda Sharma）是一个伪装成仁慈导师的打手。阿克巴尔·尚吉（Akbar Shanji）是一个伪装成成功企业家的半吊子，而扎克只是一个伪装成寡头之子的伦敦少年。每个人都在假装成为自己本不是的模样，每个人都深陷现代伦敦那种浮华、拜金、渴望出人头地的文化之中。引用他的话说，‘那是三个在贩卖空气的艺术家。’”雷勒（Relle）说：“在某种程度上——而我认为这正是这本书的成就所在，也是我喜欢它的原因。这是一个关于一个少年死去的如此奇特、古怪的故事。但我认为帕特里克·拉登·基夫在主题上，通过他的调查研究，通过所有的背景细节，通过他的叙事，能够梳理出他们所有人——尽管背景各不相同——所共有的一种共鸣。而他将那些点串联起来以勾勒出某种特定图景的方式，我认为是如此令人钦佩。而且正是因为有一个如此关心的家庭，我们才能知道这个故事，因为每天又有多少百万次这样的事情在发生呢？这是一个悲伤的论点，也是一个沉重的论点，但我同时也认为，这是一个用来结束这场对话的极佳的反思立足点。关于这本书我们能聊上一整天，不过在结束本期节目之前，我确实想推荐几本书。那我们转入下一话题吧。我想知道，大家会向读完《伦敦陨落》（London Falling）的读者推荐去读什么呢？这可以涵盖很多方面。可以是另一本关于少年之死以及调查找出真相的书；可以是另一本以伦敦为背景、令人身临其境的非虚构作品；也可以是更多的叙事性非虚构。听你们的。我只是很好奇。大家会推荐读者接下来读什么？要我说，要是你还没读过的话，一定要读读《什么都别说》（Say Nothing）；要是你喜欢它的话，我附议。

英文原文

>> That's a great point. And it's not I have a quote that I wanted to read and it's not just about social media and creating images for kids, but it's about the the fact that this is a book about a series of imposters. Patrick Raden Keef writes, "One reason that it is so difficult to know precisely what happened at Riverwalk is that Zach was by no means the only impostor in the apartment that night. Verinda Sharma was a leg breaker posing as a benevolent mentor. Akbar Shanji was a dilotant posing as an accomplished entrepreneur and Zach was just a London teenager posing as the son of an oligarch. Each was pretending to be something he wasn't and each was caught up in the glitzy mercenary aspirational culture of modern London. Quote, "It was three artists selling air." Relle said, "There's a way in which, and this is what I think is the achievement of the book and why I love it. This is such a weird strange story about one teenager dying. But Patrick Rod and Keef is thematically, I think through his research, through all the background, through his storytelling, able to tease out the shared resonance that all of them all from different backgrounds all had. And just the way he's able to connect those dots to tease out a particular image, I think is so impressive. And it is only because you have a family that cares this much that we know the story because how many millions of times is it happening every day? That's a sad point and that's a heavy point, but I also think that's a great reflective place to end this conversation on. We could talk about this book all day, but I do want to get to some book recommendations before we wrap this episode. So, let's pivot. I'm wondering what would you recommend readers pick up after they have read London falling. This could be a great many things. It could be another book about the death of a teenager and an investigation to find out what's happening. This could be just another immersive non-fiction book set in London. This could be more narrative non-fiction. I defer to you. I'm just curious. What would you recommend readers pick up next? I would say definitely read Say Nothing if you haven't and if you liked it, I second that.

书目推荐

我的意思是，那是显而易见的选择。嗯，不过换一个稍有不同的方向，我好几次想到了弗雷德曼（Fredman）的这篇中篇小说《重逢》（Reunion）。

英文原文

>> I mean, that's a no-brainer. Um, but to go in a slightly different direction, I I thought a few times about this novella, Reunion by Fredman.

这本我不知道。

英文原文

>> I don't know this one.

我不知道它现在是否还在印行，但很容易找到。我只是觉得作为对青春期男孩的一部沉思之作，它可以成为一本有趣的配套读物。在不剧透太多的情况下，它讲的是战前德国的两个少年，其中一个是犹太人，另一个出身贵族家庭。它讲述的是他们的友谊，讲述了世界大事件如何改变了这段友谊，以及随之而来的种种余波。

英文原文

>> It's I don't know if it's in print right now, but it's easy to find. And I just think as a meditation on teenage boys, it could be an interesting companion piece. Without giving away too much, it's about two teenage boys in pre-war Germany, one of whom is Jewish, one of whom is from a noble family. It's about their friendship, about how the events of the world change it, and then kind of the fallout of that.

很有意思。我也很喜欢——就像这是一个虚构类推荐，在读完这本非虚构作品之后推荐这篇中篇小说。我们喜欢跨流派，我们喜欢跨流派的推荐。谢谢。那你呢，珍？

英文原文

>> Interesting. I also love that like that's a fiction recommendation. this novella after reading this this non-fiction book. We love cross genres. We love cross genre recommendations. Thank you. What about you, Jen?

有一本呃非虚构的书。它不是专门写伦敦的，但书名叫做凯瑟琳·贝尔顿（Catherine Belton）写的《普京的圈内人》（Putin's People）。她是一名调查记者，我想她常驻伦敦。这本书其实是关于普京身边的人。所以，这是一个关于克里姆林宫的故事，但它也是一个关于伦敦的故事，以及伦敦如何不仅成为了许多寡头本人、而且成为了寡头资金的枢纽，

英文原文

>> So, there's a uh non-fiction book. It's not specifically about London, but it's called Putin's People by Katherine Belton. She's an investigative journalist. I think she's based in London. It's about actually the people around Putin. So, it's a story about the Kremlin, but it's also a story about London and how London has become the hub for a lot of not just oligarchs themselves, but oligarch money

以及这如何与英国建制派联系在一起——正如萨蒂（Satie）刚才提到的关于工业化英国衰落的情况——这个建制派已经搞明白了：哦，等一下，如果我们【哼笑】屈从于这种涉及高层金融、可疑资金以及各种乱七八糟东西的新经济，我们实际上就能保住我们的特权。所以，我的意思是，我认为那本书确实对伦敦所发生的变迁，以及它与俄罗斯所发生的一切如何关联，给出了非常广阔的视野。

英文原文

>> and how that connects to this British establishment that as as Satie was mentioning about the decline of industrial Britain that this establishment has figured out, oh, wait a second, we can actually maintain our privileges if we [snorts] yield to this new economy that's involved with high finance, shady money, all kinds of stuff. So, I mean, that book, I think, really gives an expansive sense of what's happened to London and how it connects to what's happened in Russia.

很有意思。

英文原文

>> Interesting.

确实。珍，在今天早些时候我们开始录音之前，你提到你有一个意想不到的推荐，说明你又重操非虚构的旧业（back on your non-fiction BS）了。指的就是这本吗？【笑声】就是这——

英文原文

>> Yes. Jen, before we started recording earlier today, you mentioned that you had an unexpected recommendation that was you back on your non-fiction BS. Is that what this is? Is [laughter] that the

我就是这么说的。我就是这么说的。不过我也想说，其实我能不能再提一本书，它也是另外一本——它是另一本非虚构书籍，但我觉得至少在我脑海里，它也与这本书中隐约提到的一些主题有所关联；它其实出自《纽约客》的另一位专职撰稿人雷切尔·阿维夫（Rachel Lviv [Aviv]）之手，书名叫《熟悉的陌生人》（Strangers to Ourselves），这本书——

英文原文

>> That's what I said. That's what I said. Although I would also say can I name one more book actually which is like another it's another non-fiction book but I think also sort of connected at least in my mind to some of the themes that are alluded to in this book which is actually by another New Yorker staff writer Rachel Lviv Strangers to Ourselves which is

你知道，我认为她同样是该杂志另一位优秀的记者兼作家，但她真正探讨的是，我们向自己讲述的故事，以及别人向我们讲述的关于我们是谁的故事，如何塑造了我们对自己身份的理解，打开了各种可能性，但也可能关闭了其他探索的途径。这正是我在读这本书时所思考的东西。

英文原文

>> you know I think again another excellent reporter and writer at the same magazine but she really talks about the ways in which The stories that we tell ourselves, the stories that other people tell us about who we are, shape our understanding of who we are, open up possibilities, but also maybe close down other avenues for exploration. And it was just something that I was thinking about as I was reading this book.

我还想澄清一下，当我以及你说“back on your non-fiction BS”时，那绝不是什么坏事。那是“重操旧业”的夸奖说法。【笑声】我有几个推荐。这一本是我们在播客里已经提过好几次的，因为它是今年早些时候出版的。这是南·戈尔（Nan Goal）写的《爱与愤怒的岁月》（Days of Love and Rage），他也是一位《纽约客》作者。这是对叙利亚革命的一幅画像，但它跟随了一座关键城市中的少数核心人物，这座城市真正与暴政作斗争，为自由而战，建立了一个民主政体，然后很快意识到维持这一政体需要付出大量努力，与此同时 ISIS 正在该地区不断壮大。我之所以推荐它作为《伦敦陨落》的配套读物，是因为它具有帕特里克·拉登·基夫的那种风格：将一个极其宏大广阔的主题，通过这些极其引人入胜的人物故事，以如此细致入微、贴近切身的方式讲述出来。在读《爱与愤怒的岁月》时，我简直惊叹不已，心想这位作者到底是怎么拿到这么多信息的，但他真的将所有那些调查研究组织编织进了一本书里，读起来就像在读小说一样，让人感觉身临其境、就在现场。完全没有新闻报道可能带来的那种疏离感。它让人觉得你就置身其中。而像叙利亚革命这样一件事，是一个如此

英文原文

>> I also want to clarify when I and when you said back on your non-fiction BS, that is not a bad thing. That is back on my BS complimentary. [laughter] I have a few recommendations. This is one that we've mentioned a few times on the podcast already because it came out earlier this year. This is Days of Love and Rage by Nan Goal, also a New Yorker writer. This is a portrait of the Syrian revolution, but it follows a handful of key players in one pivotal city that really struggled against tyranny that fought for freedom that founded a democracy and then realized very quickly that it takes a lot of work to maintain that all while ISIS is growing in the region. The reason why I recommend it as a companion to London falling is because it does that Patrick Raden Keef thing where it's a huge sweeping topic told so minutely intimately through these very immersive human stories. While reading Days of Love and Rage, I was just like marveling like how did this author get this much information, but he really marshals all that research into a book that feels like reading a novel that feels like you are there on the ground. It doesn't feel like there's that distance that reportage can have. It feel you're you're there in it. And something like the Syrian revolution is such a

庞大的议题，而且与西方存在如此巨大的【哼笑】文化差异，以至于我觉得去了解它可能会让人望而生畏，但在这本书里完全不是那么回事。

英文原文

huge topic and there's so much [snorts] culture differences from the west that I feel like it can be intimidating to learn about but that's not the case here.

他把读者带得非常深。你们两位读过这本吗？

英文原文

He brings you so deeply in. Have either of you read this one?

读过。那也是一个非常、非常棒的推荐。

英文原文

>> Yeah. And that's a very very good recommendation as well.

谢谢。然后我还有另外两个很快提一下的推荐。一本是约翰·卡雷鲁（John Carreyrou）写的《坏血》（Bad Blood），这是对伊丽莎白·霍姆斯（Elizabeth Holmes）创立的诈骗血液检测公司西罗诺斯（Theranos）的调查报道。另一本是罗南·法罗（Ronan Farrow）写的《捕杀》（Catch and Kill）。这两部作品同样都把你非常深刻、非常沉浸式、极具叙事感地带入到这些宏大议题中。朋友们，我想我们今天的时间就全部到了。萨迪（Sadi）、珍（Jen），感谢你们加入我们。

英文原文

>> Thank you. And then I have two other recommendations very quickly. One is Bad Blood by John Keroo, which is an investigation into Theronos, the scam blood testing company that Elizabeth Holmes founded. And then the other is Catch and Kill by Ronan Pharaoh. Again, both bringing you very deeply, very immersively, very narratively into these big topics. I think friends that that is all the time that we have today. Sadi, Jen, thank you for joining us.

谢谢你。关于这本书我们本可以聊上一整天，而且很可能还会继续聊。

英文原文

>> Thank you. We could have talked all day about this book and probably will.

没错。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

是的。珍，你第一次参加我们的读书俱乐部感觉怎么样？

英文原文

>> Yes. Jen, how was your first book club with us?

棒极了。非常感谢邀请我。

英文原文

>> It was great. Thank you so much for having me.

萨迪，我们第一次非虚构类读书俱乐部感觉怎么样？

英文原文

>> Satie, how was our first non-fiction book club?

我觉得太精彩了。希望这是众多当中的第一次——

英文原文

>> I think fantastic. I hope the first of many

成功。这让我感到非常高兴。呃，我还想对所有和我们一起共读的每一位说一声巨大的感谢。再次提醒，在网上我们有一篇题为《与书评栏目共读帕特里克·拉登·基夫的〈不要说〉》的文章。请在那里继续讨论。现在到了揭晓我们九月读书俱乐部选书的时刻了。下个月也就是九月，《纽约时报书评》读书俱乐部将阅读并讨论保罗·尹（Paul Yoon）的《埃特纳》（Etna）。这是一个战争故事，或者更确切地说是一个战后故事，以一只只想回家的狗狗的视角讲述。我们希望大家能加入我们。目前《纽约时报》网站上有一篇头条文章《与书评栏目共读保罗·尹的作品》。我们将在那里的线上讨论这本书，并且我们也会在9月25日星期五播出的播客节目中聊聊这本书。我们迫不及待地想和你们一起讨论这本书了。在那之前，祝阅读愉快。

英文原文

>> success. This makes me very happy. Um, I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone who's read with us. Again, up online, we have an article titled book club read London Falling by Patrick Graten Keef with the book review. Continue the conversation there. And now it's time for the revelation of our September [music] book club book. Next month in September, the book review book club will be reading and discussing [music] Etna by Paul Yun. It's a war story, or rather a post-war story told from the perspective of a dog who just wants to get home. We hope you'll join us. Right now up on the New York Times, there's an article headlined book club read by Paul Yun with the book review. We will [music] be discussing the book online there and we will also chat about the book on the podcast episode that airs on Friday, September 25th. We can't wait to discuss the book with you. And until then, happy [music] reading.