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安省政府拟改革学生资助计划并讨论联邦补选对保守党的影响 TVO Today 2026-11-14

安省政府拟改革学生资助计划并讨论联邦补选对保守党的影响

politics election education policy

摘要

播客讨论了安省政府拟对安大略省学生资助计划（OSAP）进行的调整，并回顾了1919年安省历史性的联合农民党（UFO）执政事件。此外，节目分析了即将到来的七场联邦补选，特别是布兰特福德-布兰特南和帕里湾-马斯科卡选区的竞争，可能影响皮埃尔·波利耶夫在下届大选中作为保守党领导人的地位。
来源
TVO Today
发布时间
20 节

播客开场与内容提要

欢迎大家收听 OnPy 播客。我是 Steve Pacin

英文原文 Welcome everyone to the OnPy podcast.

I'm Steve Pacin

我是 John Michael McGrath。

英文原文 >> and I'm John Michael McGrath.

今天在节目中，我们关注汽车行业的两大新动态。Stellantis 出售了其位于宾顿（Brampton）的工厂，使当地数百个工作岗位面临威胁。与此同时，政府正在向位于阿里斯顿（Alliston）的本田工厂投入更多资金。

英文原文 >> Today on the pod, we've got our eye on two big developments in the auto sector. Stalantis has sold its plant in Bmpton, putting hundreds of jobs there under threat. Meanwhile, governments are putting more money into Honda in Allist.

省政府已任命了八位区域主席，这引发了诸多不满。安大略省自由党临时党领 John Fraser 将做客本期播客，为该党定于 11 月 21 日决出胜负的党领竞选做铺垫。

英文原文 >> The province has appointed eight regional chairs and there is lots of unhappiness over this. The interim leader of the Ontario Liberals, John Fraser, joins the pod to tea up his party's leadership contest, which picks a winner on November 21st.

在你的专栏……我的专栏中，我将聚焦一项你可能尚未注意到的联邦住房政策。

英文原文 >> And in your column, my column, I'm going to focus on a federal housing policy you might not have noticed.

McGrath，住房政策。我为什么一点都不意外呢？与此同时，我的专栏重点探讨一条政治格言——补选究竟是无关紧要，抑或补选决定了一切？随着即将到来的七场联邦补选进入倒计时，我们将为您解答，而这些补选可能会决定联邦反对党领袖的命运。今天是 2026 年 11 月 13 日，星期五。那么，让我们正式开始吧。

英文原文 >> McGrath, housing policy. Why am I not surprised? Meanwhile, my column focuses on the political maxim that bi-elections really mean nothing. Or is it bi-elections mean absolutely everything? We'll let you know as we countd down to seven upcoming federal bi-elections which could determine the fate of the federal leader of the opposition. It's Friday, November 13th, 2026. So, let's get to it.

开场寒暄：T恤与 1919 年安省大选轶事

JMM，很高兴见到你。在安大略玩得很开心。开始之前我们先来点 on poly 甜头。不过……

英文原文 >> JMM, glad to see you. Had a blast in Ontario. Let's have a little on poly sugar before we start. But

在渥太华玩得很开心，不好意思，稍等。我站起来一下。衣服上写着“我在渥太华玩得很开心——从来没人这么说过”。

英文原文 >> blast in Ottawa, but sorry, hang on. So, I'm going to stand up here. The the shirt says I had a blast in Ottawa. said nobody.

天哪，太损了。

英文原文 >> God, that's harsh.

别写信抗议啊。我出生在渥太华，我有资格这么说。呃，另外稍后在节目中，我们将迎来同样是渥太华之子的 John Fraser 做客我们的播客。所以，我想以此致敬他，希望他不会因此在省立法机构提出谴责我的动议。

英文原文 >> Don't write letters. I was born in Ottawa. I'm allowed to say it. Um, and also uh later in the show, we will be welcoming a fellow son of Ottawa, John Fraser, uh to uh our podcast. So, I thought I would uh recognize him and hopefully he will not now introduce a resolution in the legislature condemning me.

好吧。有两件事。第一件事，事实证明我不太擅长辨认草体字，因为我之前以为写的是“安大略”，但其实写的是“渥太华”。第二点，衣服正面印着航天飞机。

英文原文 >> Okay. Two things. One thing, we learned that I can't read cursive writing very well because I thought it actually said Ontario, but it says Ottawa. Second of all, it's got the space shuttle on the front of it.

是的。

英文原文 >> Yes.

航天飞机曾在渥太华发射升空过吗？是我漏掉了这段历史，还是怎么回事？

英文原文 >> Did the space shuttle take off from Ottawa at some point? Did I miss that or what happened?

没有，我……这件衣服是我妻子……通常都是这样，我妻子在一家店里看到了这件衣服，它把我生命中两样重要的东西结合在一起：渥太华市和宇宙飞船。我还能说什么呢？

英文原文 >> No, I I it this shirt my wife, as frequently the case, my wife spotted this shirt in a store and it joins two important things in my life. The city of Ottawa and spaceships. And what can I say?

完全说得通，完全说得通。我今天穿的……我站起来以便电视机前的观众能看到。好了。欧内斯特·德鲁里（Ernest Drury）省长。德鲁里省长就是我本周想讲的故事，因为这是安大略历史上最引人入胜、最非同寻常的选举之一。11 月 14 日，也就是明天——1919 年，明天正好是 107 年前，他成为了省长。而且在竞选期间，他的名字甚至都没出现在选票上。这次选举就是这么离奇。

让我带你回到过去。当时安大略爆发了一场农业抗议运动。农民们的日子非常艰难。于是农民们组建了一种政治运动，后来演变成了一个政党，即安大略联合农民党（United Farmers of Ontario），简称 UFO。他们甚至都没有在每个选区推选候选人。选举开始时，Ernest Drury 甚至都不是该党的领袖，也没有参选。那次选举出现了极其疯狂的“领先者当选”（first-past-the-post）结果。

事情是这样的：当时的省长是来自苏圣玛丽（Sault Ste. Marie）的 William Hearst。他是保守党人。他的政党获得了 34% 的选票，这通常足以赢得少数政府。排在第二位的是自由党，Hartley Dewart 是党领，他们获得了 26% 的选票。排在第三位的是 UFO，也就是农民，他们获得了 21% 的选票。排在第四位的是工党，我们现在已经没有工党了，但当时有一个工党，获得了 9% 的选票。所以农民党在总得票率上仅排第三。猜猜谁赢得了最多的席位？

是农民党。UFO 赢得了 44 个席位。自由党获得 27 席，保守党获得 25 席，工党获得 11 席，而省长在苏圣玛丽丢掉了自己的席位。所以，这是一连串非常离奇的情况：选举后 UFO 找到 Drury 说：“嘿，我知道你以前当过党领，但我们现在需要你回来，因为我们需要一位省长。”事情就是这样发生的。他事后加入，后来参加了补选，成为了党领，他们与工党组成了联合政府，执政了一届。安大略联合农民党执政了一届，这一切都始于 107 年前的明天。很不可思议吧？

英文原文 >> Makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. I today am wearing I'm going to stand up here so you can see it for those watching on television. There we go. Premier Earnest Drury. Premier Drury is the story I wanted to talk about this week because this is one of the most fascinating elections, one of the most extraordinary elections in Ontario history. November 14th, so tomorrow, 1919, that's what 107 years ago tomorrow, he became the premier. And he wasn't even on the ballot during the election campaign. That's how crazy this one was. Let me take you back. There is a an agricultural uprising in Ontario. Farmers are really having a tough time. And the farmers put together a kind of a political movement which sort of turns into a political party, the United Farmers of Ontario, UFO for short. They didn't even run candidates at every writing. Ernest Drury wasn't even the leader of the party when the election started and was not running for election. And it was one of those elections where you had insane first pass the post results. So here's what happened. The premier of the day was William Hurst from Sue St. Marie. He was the conservative. His party got 34% of the vote. Usually enough for a minority government win. In second place were the Liberals. Hartley Dart was the leader. They got 26% of the vote. In third place was the UFO, the farmers who got 21% of the vote. And in fourth place was a Labor party. We don't have that anymore, but we had a Labor party back then that got 9% of the vote. So the farmers came in third in the total vote. And guess who won the most seats?

the farmers. The UFO got 44 seats. The Liberals got 27, the Conservatives got 25, Labor got 11, and the premier lost his own seat in Sue St. Marie. So, this was kind of a crazy set of circumstances whereby the UFO go to Drury after the election and say, "Hey, I know you used to be the leader, but we kind of need you back here right now because we need a premier." And that's what happened. He came in after the fact, ran for a bi-election down the road, became the leader, they made a coalition government with Labor, and they had one term. The United Farmers of Ontario had one term, and it all started 107 years ago tomorrow. How about that, eh?

极其离奇的故事。

英文原文 >> Wild, wild story.

这是安大略历史上最离奇的选举之一，我很喜欢这段历史。这就是为什么我今天穿了印有德鲁里的衣服。

安省学生资助计划（OSAP）拟议改革

现在，在切入主要议题之前，我们想快速同步一条消息，它几乎就在我们录制节目的前一刻刚刚落到我们手里，那就是安大略省政府希望对安大略省学生资助计划（OSAP）做出的调整。很长一段时间以来，OHAP——噢抱歉，OSAP——一直是个严重的问题。政府正在做出回应。

英文原文 >> It is one of the wildest elections in Ontario history, and I kind of like it. And that's why I'm wearing jury today.

Now, before we get started on our main issues, we want to do a quick update on something that just kind of dropped uh in our lap um literally moments before our taping, and that is the changes that the Ontario government wants to make to the Ontario student assistance plan. OHAP is, oh, excuse me, OSAP has been a real problem for quite a long time now. The government is responding.

没错。在今年早些时候冻结了对所有私立职业学院的 OSAP 拨款后，政府表示将在下周提出新法案，以解决他们对维护 OSAP 项目诚信的某些担忧。我们不会深入探讨这些变动的所有细节，但稍后我们会与 John Fraser 就此展开交流。

为了向大家介绍一些背景情况，政府正考虑对私立机构的 OSAP 招生人数增长设置上限。也就是说，他们发现的问题之一是，在这些职业学院中，OSAP 的招生人数有时会突然暴增，这被视为潜在欺诈的证据。他们正取消这些私立学院中主要以线上为主的课程申请 OSAP 的资格。学生必须完成相当大比例的线下课堂课程。从定义上来说，学校必须维持一个实体校区，且其实体校区必须有向公众公布的开放时间，以便学生知道在哪里上课，以及想当面找教授时如何联系到他们。不能完全是虚拟的。

并且他们还——这一点很重要——希望限制这些职业学院（即这些私立职业学院）与第三方机构之间的关系。具体而言，我们指的是移民或求职招聘中介公司。在他们近期的报道中强调的另一个问题是，有些职业学院与移民顾问或这些招聘公司有着非常紧密的绑定。因此在实际操作中，存在这些关系是否……我想在讨论这些法律事务时措辞谨慎一些，但它们是否符合伦理？容我这样表述。

所讨论的这项法案中有一点并未涵盖，至少据我们目前所能确定的而言，即今年 2 月初宣布的 OSAP 款项的任何变动。当时政府实际上将资助平衡从主要依靠向学生发放助学金，转变为主要依靠贷款。学生团体将此形容为基本上将教育资助的重担重新推回给学生，而此前（自韦恩执政时期以来）资助一直更为丰厚。省议会的反对党当然称这是隔靴搔痒、为时已晚，指出早在多年前政府就收到过警告，称私立职业学院领域正在暴露出这些问题。稍后做客节目的安省自由党临时党领 John Fraser 称其为“免责甩锅（cover your ass）法案”。也许稍后我们会同他就此做进一步探讨。

英文原文 >> Right. So after uh freezing OSAP payments to uh all private career colleges earlier uh this year uh the government is saying it will introduce new legislation uh in the uh next week uh that uh will address some of their their concerns about uh maintaining the integrity of the OSAP program. Uh we're not going to get into uh all of the details uh of those changes, but we are going to talk to John Fraser about it later.

So just to give people some context here, the government is talking about capping uh OSAP enrollment growth at private institutions. So I mean one of the the uh problems they identified was these career colleges where uh OSAP enrollment could could just you know suddenly skyrocket and that was seen as evidence of potential fraud. Uh they are uh making predominantly online programs at these private colleges ineligible for OSAP. You're going to have to have a substantial in-class portion. uh you are going to have to sort of by definition maintain a physical campus and your physical campus will have to have like public posted hours so that students know where their classes are and how to reach their professors in person if they want to. It it can't all be virtual. Um and they also, and this is important, they want to restrict the relationships between uh career colleges, these private career colleges and third party organizations. specifically we're talking about um immigration or career recruitment firms. Uh you know another one of the um uh issues that was highlighted uh in their recent uh reporting was uh that you know some of these career colleges are uh very closely tied to uh immigration consultant or or these recruitment firms. And so uh you know functionally there's there's a question of uh you know whether these these relationships are are u I want to be careful how I speak about these legal matters but whether they they are ethical. Let me put it that way.

Um, one thing that the the legislation as discussed uh does not include, at least so far as we've been able to determine is uh any changes to the uh OSAP uh payments that were announced back at the early part of this year in February. That was where the government shifted uh really the balance from uh primarily relying on grants to students to really much more relying on loans. uh student groups have described this as you know basically uh shifting the the burden of funding education back on to uh students whereas it had previously you know since the win years had been more generous. The opposition parties of Queens Park uh are of course saying this is too little too late uh pointing out that the government was warned uh many years before that these issues were showing up in the private career college sector. Uh and our guest later in the show uh John Fraser interim liberal leader uh called it a cover your ass bill. Uh so maybe we'll talk with him a bit more about that.

我一定要问问他这里的用词选择。太不合议会规矩了。好的，所有这些内容都将在稍后的节目中呈现。而且，如果我们下周看到相关法案，我们下周可能会根据需要重新探讨这个问题。

英文原文 >> I definitely have to ask him about his choice of language here. Very unparliamentary. Okay. All of that still to come later in the show. And um and if we see a bill next week, we may revisit this issue next week

第一项议题：Stellantis 宾顿工厂出售

视具体需要而定。与此同时，让我们进入第一项议题。

总部位于荷兰、旗下拥有克莱斯勒、道奇和 Jeep 等品牌的汽车制造商 Stellantis，将把其在宾顿的业务出售给国防承包商 Roshel。Unifor 全国工会主席表示

英文原文 >> uh as needs be. In the meantime, let's get off to issue one.

Stalantis, the Netherlands-based auto manufacturer that owns Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep, among other brands, will sell its operations in Bmpton to defense contractor Rochelle. Unifor's national president says

这是对工人的背叛，布兰普顿市长帕特里克·布朗（Patrick Brown）表示，该汽车制造商有必须履行的义务。JMM，如果可以的话，请带我们了解一下最新进展。

英文原文 this is a betrayal to workers, and Bmpton Mayor Patrick Brown says the auto manufacturer has obligations to fulfill. JMM, catch us up on this, if you would.

斯特兰蒂斯出售布兰普顿组装厂与各方担忧

好的。其实这方面的传闻至少已经流传了几个星期。Unifor工会报告称，斯特兰蒂斯（Stellantis）在谈判桌上几乎与他们切断了联络。周一，斯特兰蒂斯宣布将出售自2023年以来一直处于闲置状态的布兰普顿组装厂。公开信息中并未透露具体金额。然而，该工厂自建立之初就获得过公共资金支持。它最初建于20世纪80年代，当时获得了省政府和联邦政府的双重资金支持。而且就在2022年，联邦政府还承诺拨款帮助斯特兰蒂斯对其布兰普顿工厂和温莎工厂进行产线改造。记住2022年的这笔资助，我们稍后就会讨论。这次出售的主要担忧在于，尽管它可能会保留该地块上的一些工作岗位——没错，布兰普顿组装厂届时仍将保留运营中的制造业务——但规模将完全不同。罗谢尔（Rochelle）目前在布兰普顿的另一家工厂每月大约生产120辆车。这与布兰普顿工厂全面运转时每天生产上千辆车的规模相比，完全是两码事。显然，罗谢尔收购这家工厂是为了扩大业务规模，但汽车行业内没有人认为它雇佣的工人数量会接近现有的水平。

另一个问题是，罗谢尔表示他们并不打算将全部空间仅用于自己的制造业务。他们可能会将部分场地转租给其他制造商，甚至可能租回给斯特兰蒂斯。但这也是一个令人担忧的问题。福特省长实际上已经致信卡尼总理，要求他确保中国汽车制造商不能将布兰普顿厂区用于所谓的“散件组装”（kit assembly）。基本上就是把生产所需的所有零部件——在这个案例中是指中国电动汽车的零部件——直接运进来，然后在现场直接组装。显然，从某种意义上说，这也能保留汽车制造——装配厂只是造车的最后一步。我们如此热衷于在安大略省维持组装厂运转的原因之一，是因为它们支撑着整个零部件供应商的供应链，所有这些供应商都会向组装厂供货。如果所有零部件都只是从中国坐船运过来，用这种方式来说，通常被认为不是一个理想的结果。

英文原文 >> Right. So, this has been rumored for a few at least a few weeks now. Uh the the union unifor uh reported that Stalantis had kind of gone radio silent with them at the bargaining table. Um and on Monday, Stalantis announced that it will sell the Bmpton assembly plant that has been idle since 2023. Uh the dollar figure has not been made public. Uh the plant has however received public support uh since its inception. It was initially built in the 1980s with uh both provincial and federal financial support. Uh and as recently as 2022, uh the federal government committed money to help Stalantis uh retool both its Bmpton and Windsor plant. Uh remember remember that 2022 uh financing. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Uh the main concern with this sale is that while it might preserve jobs on the site, right, we will still have a a a operating manufacturing concern uh at the Bmpton assembly plant, it is not going to be of the same scale. Uh Rochelle currently produces about 120 vehicles a month at a different uh plant in Bmpton. Uh that is just a totally different scale from the you know thousand vehicles per day uh that were made at Bmpton when it was in uh full operation. Now obviously Relle is buying this uh uh plant because they want to expand their operations but it's still uh nobody in the auto sector thinks that it's going to uh employ anything close to uh the current number of workers. Um the other uh uh issue uh Rochelle says they don't plan to use the entire space just for their own manufacturing. Uh they might lease some of that footprint back to other uh manufacturers potentially even to Stellantis. But that is also a concern. Uh Premier Ford has actually written to Prime Minister Carney asking him to ensure that Chinese automakers uh cannot use the uh Bmpton site for what's called kit assembly. Basically shipping in the uh all of the parts necessary for making in this case you know Chinese electric vehicles um and then just assembling them uh directly on the site. Uh obviously in one sense that that would also preserve automants are only the the final step in making a car. Uh and one of the reasons why we are so uh keen to keep operating assembly plants here in Ontario is because they support that whole supply chain of parts suppliers uh that that all feed into the assembly plant. And if all of the parts are just coming off of a boat from China, it's generally seen as not an ideal outcome. put it that way.

总理本周早些时候对此事发表了看法。让我们来了解一下他说了什么。马克·卡尼：

英文原文 >> The prime minister had something to say about this earlier in the week. So, let's find out what that was all about. Mark Carney,

政府要求追回资助与投资环境的权衡

斯特兰蒂斯布兰普顿工厂的情况是不可接受的。这违反了斯特兰蒂斯在多项协议下承担的义务。但从更根本的层面来说，这是对工人的背叛，也是对加拿大以及全体加拿大人的背叛。

英文原文 >> the situation uh in Stalantis is un the Bmpton plan is unacceptable. It it violates the obligations that Stalantis has uh under several agreements. uh but to be uh more fundamental uh it's a betrayal of uh the workers uh as it is a betrayal of the um of the obligations uh to Canada and by extension to all Canadians.

这些天我们经常听到“背叛”这个词。总理目前在爱尔兰都柏林。我认为他表达的意思很大程度上呼应了你刚才所说的，他告诉记者，在公司发布公告之前他就已经知道了斯特兰蒂斯出售给罗谢尔的计划。他说罗谢尔收购该工厂是一个部分的解决方案，但斯特兰蒂斯仍有义务为其将让工人陷入的困境找到一个国际层面的解决方案。

英文原文 >> We're hearing that word betrayal used quite a bit these days. Uh the prime minister is currently in Dublin, Ireland. Um, well, I think he echoed very much of what you just said, which is he told reporters he was aware of Stalantis' plan to sell to Rashelle uh before the company made the announcement. He said Rashelle is buying the plant and that is a partial solution, but that Stalantis is still obligated to find a uh an international solution for the problem it's going to put its workers through.

没错。联邦政府也表示——这里我要重新提一下联邦政府在2022年提供的那笔资助。联邦政府的表态就像是说，嘿，那笔资金是以布兰普顿工厂维持汽车制造就业为条件的。那是用于对该厂进行产线改造以便你们在那里造车的资金。你们现在不再在那里造车了，我们希望收回那笔钱。因此，总理和工业部长梅拉妮·若利（Mélanie Joly）的态度都非常严厉，表示他们期望联邦纳税人的这笔钱能得到偿还。但目前他们并没有暗示有任何叫停出售的计划，而且在我看来，目前也不清楚是否有任何杠杆可以在未来维持该工厂传统的汽车制造业务。我想该公司的首席执行官——斯特兰蒂斯的加拿大区首席执行官已经表示：“好吧，我们会退还数千万美元，但我确信接下来就公司打算退还的金额能否充分补偿纳税人迄今为止投入的资金，将会有艰难的谈判。围绕这一点将会有一场大讨论。”

英文原文 >> Right? And the federal government is also saying, and here I'm going to bring back that uh 2022 contribution that the federal government made. Um the the federal government is saying like, hey, that money was conditional on, you know, automaking employment being maintained at the Bmpton plant. It was money to retool that plant for you to make cars there. You are no longer making cars there. Uh we would like that money back. Uh so uh both prime minister and um industry minister Melanie Jali have uh been uh quite uh stern in saying that you know they expect federal taxpayers to be uh repaid uh for that money but at the moment they are not alluding to any kind of plan to uh halt the sale or uh and it's not clear to me if there's any lever to uh you know maintain traditional autom plant uh going forward. I think the I think the CEO of the company has said the Canadian CEO of Stalantis has said, "Okay, we will return tens of millions of dollars, but there will be I'm sure there will be tough negotiations going forward on whether or not what the company wants to return uh adequately compensates taxpayers for the money that's been put in so far. There will be a big discussion about that."

是的。我们最近已经见到了好几起类似的情况，我们之前在播客中也谈到过这一点。我认为我们在许多行业都会面临这种问题。比如我们之前与克利夫兰-克利夫斯（Cleveland-Cliffs）讨论过的钢铁行业。坦率地说，这是一个如何权衡的问题：一方面你想向公众表明你在认真保护加拿大的就业岗位，但另一方面，如果在这条路上走得太激进，是否会营造一种糟糕的投资环境，不仅危及汽车制造就业，甚至危及加拿大更大范围的投资和就业？

英文原文 >> Yes. And uh yeah, we're and we've seen a few of these cases recently where you know and and we've talked about this before on the podcast where uh you know I think we are going to have this this problem in in a number of industries and you know we've talked about steel uh with with Cleveland cliffs and it's you know a question of you know how do you balance frankly wanting to show the public that you are serious about protecting Canadian jobs uh versus if you go too hard in that direction do you create uh a a bad investment climate? and potentially imperil not just the automaking jobs but the much larger universe of investment and employment in Canada.

本田阿利斯顿工厂投资与电动汽车市场走向

显然本田并没有被联邦层面的任何表态所劝退，因为他们在阿利斯顿（Alliston）的工厂传出了一些相当好的消息。那里发生了什么？

英文原文 >> Well, apparently Honda was not dissuaded by anything that came out of the federal circles because there is some pretty good news at their plant in Allist. What's happening there?

没错，联邦和省政府正在向阿利斯顿工厂投资，看起来是8.67亿美元，用于改造该工厂以生产混动车型。虽然这些并不完全算纯电动汽车，而是混动车，燃油效率更高的车。不过你可能还记得，几个月前，本田全球总部宣布他们正在放弃原定在安大略省投资150亿美元生产电动汽车的计划。这也是汽车制造商因边境以南的政策变化（姑且这么称呼吧）而在北美放弃大型电动汽车计划的众多案例之一。所以现在，8.67亿美元显然比150亿美元少得多。从对汽车行业承诺的角度来看，我认为这令人失望。而且正如我们所说，本田并不是唯一一家从电动汽车转型的汽车制造商。但是，对阿利斯顿的持续运营来说，这无疑是个好消息。

我在这里忍不住有点悲观，因为我确实觉得，由于我们与美国汽车行业联系太紧密，随着美国人转向放弃电动汽车，加拿大汽车制造商也不得不跟随他们转型，我也理解其中的原因。在这个问题上保持务实即可。但我总觉得我们亲眼目睹了——特别是去年，部分原因归功于伊朗的战争等因素——世界各国电动汽车采购量的全球激增。我担心加拿大汽车行业正在从全球经济的其他部分中被孤立出去，我们会在不远的将来发现自己生产的汽车坦率地讲世界上其他人都不想要。我想我前几天看到一个统计数据，说现在路上每五辆车中就有一辆是电动汽车，或者至少具备某种环保属性——

英文原文 >> Right, the federal and provincial governments are uh contributing to uh it looks like $867 million in uh uh investment in the Alliston plant to uh retool that plant uh to building hybrid vehicles. Though these are not electric vehicles exactly, but uh uh hybrid vehicles, more fuel efficient vehicles. Uh you might uh recall, however, that uh a few months ago, Honda globally announced that they are uh backing away from a what had been a $15 billion plan to build uh electric vehicles in Ontario. That was part of a a you know, just one of many automakers backing away from big EV plans in North America due to uh let's call it uh policy changes south of the border. Um, so now obviously like $867 million is a much smaller sum than 15 billion. Um, that's I guess disappointing in the sense of of uh commitments to an auto sector. Um, and and as we say, Honda is not the only automaker that is pivoting away from electric vehicles. Uh, but you know, that's undoubtedly good news for the continued operations uh in Alist. I I can't help but be a little bit gloomy here because I do feel like uh Canadian automakers uh because we are so closely tied to the American auto sector as the Americans have pivoted away from EVs, our automakers have necessarily gone with them and I understand why. You know, you you can just be a realist about that. uh but I just feel like we have watched particularly in the last year thanks to uh among other things the war in Iran uh the the global surge in uh EV purchases in countries all over the world. Uh and I I worry that the Canadian auto sector is sort of being islanded away from the rest of uh the global economy and that we are going to find ourselves uh you know in not the very distant future uh making cars that frankly nobody else in the world wants. I think I saw a stat the other day which said one out of every five cars on the road is an EV right now or at least has some kind of

具有环保属性，不管是混动还是纯电之类的。而且那个数字——你得记住电动汽车出现的时间并不长，对吧？我是说，内燃机汽车已经存在了100年，而这些车还没有，可能就十年，可能稍微多一点，但它们已经占到了市场的20%，而且还会增长。我是说，随着汽油价格一路攀升，它们还会增长。在我看来，如果我们想从事汽车制造业，那正是我们希望涉足的业务领域。我们可能——我是说，这里的巨大问号取决于中国以及整个亚洲会发生什么，但我们正在——

英文原文 >> you know environmental aspect to it whether it's a hybrid or a purely electric something like that and that that number you got to remember EVs haven't been around for all that long right I mean internal combustion engine cars have been around for 100 years these ones have not maybe a decade maybe a little more and they're already 20% of the market and and will grow I mean as the price of gas keeps going up and up and they will grow and it would seem to me that that's a business we want to be in if we want to be in the car manufacturing business. We are probably I mean you know a a big question mark here depends on what happens in China and in Asia generally but we are

可能已经过了全球内燃机汽车购买量的峰值。对吧，就像该领域未来的所有增长都将是电动汽车，你知道，北美可能比世界其他地区来得晚一些，但我只是无法想象从长远来看，在这部分领域加大投入对我们会有什么好处。

英文原文 probably past the peak of global internal combustion vehicle purchases right like all of the growth in the sector is going to be EVs from here on out and you know maybe in North America it comes later than it does in the rest of the world but uh I I just I can't imagine it's going to be good for us in the long term uh to be doubling down on this part of the sector.

问题二：安大略省区域主席任命引发的争议

就像年轻人说的那样，“+1”（完全赞同）。说到这里，让我们进入第二个议题。我们收到了一封听众来信，正好引出我们的下一个议题。JMM，你来读一下那封信吧？

英文原文 >> Plus one, as the kids say. And with that, let's move on to issue two. We've got a mailbag question to set up this next issue for us. JMM, why don't you give that letter a read?

没问题。这是一封来自皮克林（Pickering）的克里斯汀（Kristen）发来的邮件，她写道：“早上好。我是你们的长期听众，也是个历史迷。我敢肯定我肯定和很多听众有共同的兴趣交集。我猜确实如此。呃，我写信是关于杜兰区（Durham Region）的。省政府刚刚宣布任命了杜兰区主席，而这以前是一个民选职位。凯文·阿什（Kevin Ash）是皮克林新连任的市长。省政府表示，他可以在担任区域主席的同时继续担任市长。我很想知道安大略省以前是否发生过类似的事情。我认为杜兰区的其他人可能会对这个决定投以异样的目光（side eye），因为皮克林似乎获得了额外的代表名额。我也想知道这是否会导致领取两份薪水、报销双重开支等等。如果你们能对此予以解答，我将非常感激。祝好，安大略省皮克林的克里斯汀。”

英文原文 >> Absolutely. This is an email from Kristen in Pickering, who writes, "Good morning. I am a long-term listener and history nerd. I am sure I must be in the middle of a ven diagram with lots of listeners. I suspect that's true. Uh, I am writing about Durham Region. The province just announced this the appointment of the chair of Durham Region, a previously elected position. Kevin Ash is the newly reelected mayor of Pickering. The province stated that he can continue serving as mayor while serving as regional chair. I'm curious if something like this has ever happened before in Ontario. I would think other folks in Durham may side eye this decision as it seems like Pickering is getting extra representation. I also wonder whether this would result in two salaries, two expenses, etc. I appreciate any light you can shed on this. Best Kristen in Pickering, Ontario.

你知道，我首先要做的就是恭喜克里斯汀教会了我新东西。我以前都不知道“side eye”（斜眼看/投以怀疑目光）这个表达。你以前听过吗？“side eye”这个说法。

英文原文 >> You know, the first thing I need to do is congratulate Kristen on teaching me something new. I didn't know side eye was a thing. Have you heard that before? The expression side eye.

听过。听过。听过。我敢肯定它也被当作动词用过。

英文原文 >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sure it's been used as a verb, too.

好的。好的。在这里总是很高兴能学到新东西，克里斯汀。非常感谢你。补充一些背景信息，因为就在过去这一周，省政府确实在全省范围内任命了八位区域主席，而他们并不是像过去的做法那样由各自的议会选出的。所以，针对克里斯汀提出的一连串问题，我们应该开始逐一梳理。这些新的区域主席，不是由公众选出的，也不是由各自的议会选出的，

英文原文 >> Okay. Okay. Always happy to learn new things here, Kristen. Thank you very much. Some further context, because this past week, the province did appoint eight regional chairs across the province, and they were not chosen by their respective councils, as has been the practice in the past. So, we've got a bunch of questions here from Kristen, and we should start to go through these one by one. These new regional chairs, not elected by the public, not elected by their councils,

是由省政府任命的。这是一件新鲜事。

英文原文 >> appointed by their province. That's a new thing.

是的。

英文原文 >> Yes.

为什么呢？呃，因为今年早些时候政府通过了第100号法案，或者对不起，我应该说是政府提出、立法机构通过了第100号法案，即《更好的区域治理法案》（Better Regional Governance Act），呃，该法案使这些市镇的区域主席直接由省政府任命，呃，而不是由直接或间接选举产生。呃，这里有一段颇长的历史，我尽量精简说明。嗯，早在2018年，该省就已经转向了对区域主席进行直接选举。但大家可能还记得，在道格·福特（Doug Ford）省长和进步保守党赢得那次选举后不久，他们又改了回去，由区域议会推选主席。呃，所以第100号法案不仅使这些区域主席成为省政府任命的人选——此前有些地方已经是由省政府任命了，但这项法案使其成为了一项硬性规则：他们全部由省政府任命。呃，政府还赋予了他们所谓的“强主席”权力，这与强市长权力相仿，你知道，强市长权力始于多伦多和渥太华，现在已经扩大到了安大略省的大多数其他市镇。

英文原文 >> Why? uh because earlier this year the government passed bill 100 or sorry I should say the government introduced and the legislature passed bill 100 the better regional governance act uh which made the regional chairs of these municipalities direct provincial appointees uh instead of them being elected either directly or indirectly. Uh bit of a long history here I will try to condense it. Um, as far back as 2018, the province had shifted to uh direct elections for regional chairs. But people may recall that shortly after uh Premier Doug Ford and the Progressive Conservatives won that election, they changed it back to have uh chairs selected by the regional councils. Uh so Bill 100 not only makes those regional chairs provincial appointees, some had already been proincially appointed, but this makes it the rule. They are all provincial appointees. Uh the government has also given them so-called strong chair powers that mirror the strong mayor powers that uh you know started with Toronto and Ottawa and now been expanded to most other Ontario municipalities.

现在我要冒险说一句，省政府刚才做出的最具争议的任命是任命凯文·阿什为杜兰区新任主席，以及史蒂芬·德卢卡（Steven Deluca）为约克区新任主席，因为他们本身就已经有职务了。他们已经是各自区域内市镇的市长了。阿什是皮克林市长。德卢卡是旺市（Vaughan）市长。

按照我对你的了解，我确信你一定调查过以前是否有人同时兼任市镇市长和区域主席。答案是什么？

英文原文 >> Now I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say that the most controversial appointments that the province just made are Kevin Ash as the new regional chair for Durham and Steven Deluca the new regional chair for York because they already have jobs. They are already mayors in municipalities in their respective regions. Ash is the mayor of Pickering. Deluca is the mayor of Vaughn.

Knowing you as I do, I'm sure you have looked into whether or not anybody has ever been both a mayor of a municipality and a chair of the region at the same time. What's the answer?

我一个案例也没找到。我并不想把话说得绝对不留余地，因为有可能有人会挑出漏洞指出反例。但是在我这里讨论的这些区域中，我确实找不到任何一个民选市长同时兼任区域主席的案例。嗯，我们也不必做远古考古，像这些区域性市镇，大部分只能追溯到上世纪六七十年代。是哪届政府引入它们的？区域政府。

英文原文 >> I could not find a single case. I I want to not quite make the total universal declaration because it's possible that somebody will will catch me out on that. But I I could not find a single case in the regions that we are discussing here uh that uh ever saw an elected mayor also be a regional chair. Um we also don't have to do like ancient paleontology here like these these regional municipalities for the most part they only go back to like the 1960s and 70s. which which government brought them in? Regional government.

呃，那是进步保守党执政时期的比尔·戴维斯（Bill Davis）政府。我

英文原文 >> Uh that would be Bill Davis under the Progressive Conservatives. I

觉得基本上就是这样。嗯，所以当它们最初成立时，你知道，就像那种“日光之下并无新事、旧事重现”的情况。当它们最初作为区域政府建立起来时，第一任主席都是省政府任命的，随后区域政府有权重新提名或重新任命这些主席，有些区域也确实这么做了，你知道，有些最初作为省政府任命的人员，后来在某些情况下长期担任区域主席一职。呃，但是没有，我找不到任何一个民选市长同时兼任区域主席的先例。

英文原文 >> think that's for the most part. Um so when they first started and you know like this is one of those everything old is new again things. when they were first getting stood up as regional uh governments, the the first chairs were provincial appointees and then later the regional governments would have the ability to uh renominate or re reappoint those chairs and and some did and you know people who started off as provincial appointees went on to have you know lengthy careers as regional chairs in some cases. Uh but no, I cannot find a a single case of a uh an elected mayor also serving as a regional chair.

那么，后续问题来了。如果我住在约克区，

英文原文 >> Now, here's the follow-up question. If I were living in York Region,

假设我住在奥罗拉（Aurora），

英文原文 >> and let's say I lived in Aurora,

是的。

英文原文 >> Yes.

或者纽马克特（Newmarket），而我现在看到区域主席是旺市的市长。

英文原文 >> or New Market and I see now that the regional chair is the mayor of Vaughn.

是啊。或者如果我住在杜兰区，但我住在，比方说，阿克斯布里奇（Uxbridge）或者阿贾克斯（Ajax），我看到新的区域主席同时也是皮克林的市长。

英文原文 >> Yeah. Or if I live in Durham region, but I live in, let's say, Auxbridge or Ajax, and I see that the new regional chair is also the mayor of Pickering.

没错。

英文原文 >> Yep.

我是否应该觉得局势对我所在的市镇有点不利？

英文原文 >> Should I feel like the deck is a little bit stacked against my municipality?

这正是引发担忧的地方，例如在约克区，万锦市（Markham）市长弗兰克·斯卡皮蒂（Frank Scarpitti）就提出了质疑，呃，他在约克区的这个案子上表示，他称德卢卡的任命是明显的利益冲突。那是他的原话，不是我们说的。嗯，这里显而易见的担忧在于，如果区域议会面临一项议题，其中万锦市和旺市的利益产生分歧——而且想出这类情况并不困难。我是说，我们在这个播客中多次谈到过皮尔区（Peel Region）在布兰普顿（Brampton）和密西沙加（Mississauga）之间的分歧。嗯，你知道，区域主席是否会在天平上偏向他自己的城市，而不是作为一个更加中立的仲裁者，以更加平衡的方式去权衡区域整体利益？

英文原文 >> That is exactly the concern uh being raised in York Region, for example, by uh Markhamm Mayor Frank Scarpi, uh who uh says in this case of York Region that he's calling Deluca's appointment a clear conflict of interest. That's his words, not ours. Um, and and the obvious concern here is that like if a matter comes before regional council where Markham and Vaughn's interests diverge and like it's not hard to think of cases like that. I mean, we've talked a lot on this podcast about the disagreements at Peele region between Bmpton and Missaga. Um, you know, is the regional chair going to put his thumb on the scale uh for his own city instead of being uh a a more neutral arbiter uh to to weigh the regional uh uh interests in a more balanced fashion.

我想接下来的问题是，他们怎么可能不偏心呢？我的意思是，归根结底他们希望连任各自市镇的市长，而不仅仅是作为一个接受省政府任命的区域主席。如果你想获得连任，你怎么可能不为自己的市镇出头争取呢？

英文原文 >> I would say the follow-up question is how could they not? I mean ultimately they want to be reelected as the mayors of their respective municipalities, not just as the regional chair taking an appointment from the province. How could you not go to bat for your municipality if you wanted to get reelected?

确实。而这恰恰就是令人担忧的问题所在。而且你知道，我想说情况稍微有些微妙，因为提交给区域议会的事项与提交给当地市议会的事项是不同的。嗯，因此，你知道，很有可能像史蒂芬·德卢卡这样的人在做出这些决定时，不至于被认为严重偏袒旺市而针对万锦市，诸如此类。呃，但确实，这绝对是未来四年值得关注的事情，看看所有这些区域主席——不仅是德卢卡和阿什这样的人——如何平衡这些顾虑。

英文原文 >> No. And and that is exactly the the concern. And you know, it's it's slightly nuanced, I guess I would say, by you know, the matters that come before a regional council are different than the ones that would go before a a local city council. Um, and so, you know, it might very well be the case that somebody like Steven Deluca is able to make these decisions without being perceived as being horribly biased in favor of Vaughn and against Markham, that kind of thing. Uh, but yeah, it's absolutely going to be something worth watching over the next four years to see uh how all of these regional chairs, not just uh people like Deluca and Ash, uh, balance these concerns.

那么薪酬方面呢？他们做这第二份工作会拿到第二份工资吗？

英文原文 >> Now, what about remuneration? Do they get a second salary for doing this second job?

呃，他们拿不到。呃，这里先说明一下背景，呃，区域议会议员（包括区域议会主席）的薪酬一直是由各议会自行决定的。他们自己投票决定自己的薪水。并且，呃，你知道，有时候比如说在经济衰退、需要紧缩开支的时候，议会会通过政策不给自己涨薪；而当经济衰退过去后，议会又会给自己加薪，但这一切完全在他们的控制之下，省政府并没有对这点做出确切改变。他们所做的是实施了一项规定，称这些主席只能领取他们有资格获得的两份工资中较高的一份。所以，呃，在这种情况下，我相信，呃，你知道，史蒂芬·德卢卡将会被支付他作为区域主席的工资，呃，但不会领旺市市长的工资，因为我相信据我上次核实，那是两份工资中较高的一份。不过没有，他，我我想如果当我查看……

英文原文 >> Uh they do not. Uh so just to to set the context here, uh the compensation for members of regional councils including the chairs of regional councils that has always been determined by the councils themselves. They get to vote their own uh salaries. And uh you know sometimes let's say in you know recessions when there's belt tightening the the councils will pass policies not raising their salaries and then when the recession passes councils will increase their own salaries but it's it's all under their control and the province hasn't changed that exactly. What they have done is implement a rule saying that uh these chairs are only getting paid the higher of the two salaries that they would be eligible for. So, uh, in this case, I believe, uh, you know, Steven Deluko will be paid his regional chair salary, uh, but not the mayor Avon, uh, salary because I believe last I checked, that was the higher of the two salaries. But no, he I I I think if when I looked at

如果他两份薪水都拿，那总共将近五十万美元。出于显而易见的原因，我认为省政府可能考虑过那种情况，并觉得那在政治上代价太高，而且财政上也耗资不菲。

英文原文 if if he were to be paid both salaries,

it would be close to a half million dollars that he would be paid. And for obvious reasons, I think the provincial government might have contemplated that scenario and thought that would be politically costly for them. And you know, also fiscally costly.

是的，确实。

英文原文 >> Yeah. Yeah.

“强市长”与“强区域主席”权力

现在让我回到你刚才提到的“强市长权力”。在过去八年道格·福特执政期间，我们看到他推行了一些措施，让现在大多数或许多市镇的市长能够享有所谓的“强市长权力”，即在特定情况下，市长一人的投票可以推翻市议会的多数意见。

同样，区域主席现在也将拥有“强主席权力”。他们打算用这些权力做些什么？我们目前知道了吗？

英文原文 >> Now, let me circle back to something you said a moment ago when you talked about strong mayor powers. And we have seen over the course of Doug Ford governments over the last eight years that he's introduced measures that allow mayors in in now most municipalities or many municipalities to enjoy so-called strong mayor powers where the vote of one mayor can overrule the majority on council under certain circumstances.

Similarly, regional chairs will now have strong chair powers. What do they intend to do with them? Do we know that yet?

呃，我们还不知道具体会包括什么。呃，你知道，我记得我确实看到过一些报道，提到凯文·阿什在考虑他可能会使用或不使用哪些权力。呃，你知道，有些主席讨论过他们可能愿意用这些权力来做什么。但是，呃，提醒大家一下，我们所说的这些强力其实可以分为几类。其中有些你和我之前讨论过，比如赋予市长重组市政官僚机构的权力，我认为很多人都能看到其中的价值；呃，在涉及明确省优先事项的情况下，赋予市长推翻市议会某些多数表决的权力。嗯，还有任命首席执行官等，你希望市长和首席执行官步调一致。

英文原文 >> Uh, we don't know exactly what that uh will entail. Uh, you know, I think um I did see some reporting about Kevin Ash considering what powers he may or may not use. Uh, you know, some some chairs have discussed what they might might be willing to do with them. But um you know just to to remind people there are sort of different buckets of these strong powers that we can talk about and and you know some of them you and I have discussed before where you know giving the mayor the power to reorganize the municipal bureaucracy is one of those things that I think a lot of people could see the the the value to um uh giving the mayor the power to uh override certain uh city council majorities in cases of a clear provincial priority. Well, and to set, you know, to hire the CEO and so on, you want you want the mayor and the CEO to be on the same page.

呃，是的，完全正确。而且，在省里明确表示比如住房是关键优先事项的情况下，呃，市长拥有某种否决权，该否决权只能由绝对多数推翻。

正如我之前在播客中所说，你知道，如果市长是由全市选民选出的人，而不仅仅是代表某个狭隘的市议会或镇议会席位，这在一定程度上是说得通的。呃，在这些案例中引发如此大争议的，当然是这里面显然存在一些细微差别——比如凯文·阿什和史蒂文·德尔杜卡确实在各自的城市赢得了全市范围的选举，所以拥有一定的民主授权；但其他一些人中，至少在某一个案例里，他们任命的主席似乎大概有二十年没担任过任何公职或民选职务了。呃，那么那个人真的有授权去行使这类否决权，将某种少数人统治强加给一个拥有数十万甚至可能数百万人口的区域市镇吗？呃，按照安大略省议会的明智考量，答案是有，那个人拥有授权，因为安大略省政府是这么说的。

英文原文 >> Uh, yes, exactly. And and then, you know, in cases where, like, you know, the province has said that, you know, housing is a key priority, uh, the the uh, mayor has a certain sort of veto that can only be override with a a supermajority.

And as I've said before on the podcast, you know, that makes a certain amount of sense at least if the mayor is the person who was elected from the citywide electorate and not just a a narrow city council or or town council seat. Um what is so controversial, of course, in these cases is, you know, it's obviously there's some nuance here where like Kevin Ash and Steven Deluko did win citywide uh elections in their own cities. So there's some democratic mandate there, but some of these other people uh at least in one case they've appointed a chair who I don't think has held any kind of public office or any elected office in something like 20 years. Um so you know does that person really have the mandate to uh exercise uh these kinds of uh uh vetos that impose a kind of minority rule on a regional municipality of hundreds of thousands or even potentially millions of people. Uh, according to the Ontario legislature in its wisdom, yes, that person has a mandate because the government of Ontario has said so.

嗯，我认为我们学到的一点是，跟道格·福特做朋友是件好事。

英文原文 >> Well, I think one thing we've learned is it's good to be friends with Doug Ford.

我想这些人对道格·福特都挺友好的。

英文原文 >> I think all these people are friendly to Doug Ford.

呃，是的。而且你知道，显然史蒂文·德尔杜卡此前曾是自由党党魁，所以这不纯粹是党派问题；但如果你看看马斯科卡区，巴里市的前市长以及当地的主席曾作为自由党人参选，就不受欢迎留任区域主席——我想我指的当然是杰夫·莱曼。呃，正如我们之前在节目中所推测的，他将被前联邦保守党国会议员斯科特取代。

英文原文 >> Uh, yeah. and you know and not not like obviously Steven Deluca was uh previously liberal leader so it's it's not purely a partisan thing but then if you look uh at um the district of of Mskoka where a former mayor of Barry and uh the the chair there uh had previously run as a liberal uh was not welcome to uh remain as the uh regional chair I'm think I'm speaking of course of Jeff Leman um and he will be uh replaced as we had speculated previously on the cast by former conser federal conservative MP Scott.

他现在还不完全算“前”议员。

英文原文 >> He's not quite former yet.

哦，他还没辞职。

英文原文 >> Oh, he hasn't resigned yet.

他还没辞职，但他马上就要辞了。

英文原文 >> He hasn't resigned yet, but he's about to.

是的。

英文原文 >> Yeah.

而且他是个不错的人，他会做得很好的。

英文原文 >> And he's a good guy. He'll be He'll do fine.

是的，是个不错的人。而且，你知道，他在联邦层面上是住房议题的强硬批评者。我真的很想看看他如何在这个新角色中行事。正如我所说，这一切都非常值得关注。呃，不过在其他条件相同的情况下，能与省长搞好关系总比搞不好要好。

英文原文 >> Yes. Good guy. And and like, you know, a strong critic on the housing file federally. I genuinely interested to see uh how he uh uh how he acts in this new role. It will be, as I say, this this all bears a lot of watching. Um but uh yes uh all else being equal, you'd love to be on better terms with the premier than not.

现在，我能按惯例提一下比尔·戴维斯吗？

英文原文 >> Right now, can I do my constitutionally obligatory Bill Davis reference here?

请便，我是说，我想拦也拦不住你。

英文原文 >> By all means, I mean, I couldn't stop you if I tried.

不，你拦不住。凯文·阿什，

英文原文 >> No, you couldn't. Kevin Ash,

对吧？

英文原文 >> right?

皮克林市市长，现在的达勒姆区域主席。

英文原文 >> Mayor of Pickering, now regional chair of Durham.

是的。

英文原文 >> Yes.

他的父亲曾是比尔·戴维斯政府的内阁部长。

英文原文 >> His father was a cabinet minister in Bill Davis's government.

哦，好的。

英文原文 >> Oh, okay.

乔治·阿什，当年的税收部长。

英文原文 >> George Ash, revenue minister back in the day.

好吧，我就知道你想了解这件冷门的陈年旧事。

英文原文 >> Okay. I knew you'd want to know that little piece of arcane trivia,

你知道，就像许多这类区域市镇的设立一样，我们之前也提到过，那是在比尔·戴维斯时代。而且你知道，这可以说是一个非常好的——虽然算不上完全有形，但却是一个现实世界的例子，说明在很多方面我们其实仍然生活在比尔·戴维斯的安大略省。

英文原文 >> you know, and like so many of these uh these regional municipalities were created uh we alluded to this earlier like in in Bill Davis's time. And you know, it's just like a a a very nice uh not quite tangible example, but like a real world example of like in in a lot of ways we are all still living in Bill Davis's Ontario.

安省自由党党魁选举与临时党魁访谈

确实如此。那么，让我们进入第三个议题。

投票正在进行中，以决定谁将成为安大略自由党的新党魁，这是该党在过去八年里的第四位正式党魁。就在上周，我们在演播室见到了各位候选人进行辩论。现在加入我们的是该党的临时党魁约翰·弗雷泽。我首先有一个非常显而易见的问题想问你。首先，欢迎你。

英文原文 >> Amen. And with that, let's move on to issue three.

Voting is underway to determine who will become the Ontario Liberal Party's new leader, the party's fourth permanent leader in the last eight years. We met the contenders just last week in this studio for a debate. Joining us now, the party's interim leader, John Fraser. I have a very obvious first question for you. First of all, welcome.

欢迎，很高兴你来到这里。

英文原文 >> Welcome. Nice to have you here.

很高兴来到这里。

英文原文 >> Happy to be here.

你实际上担任过多少次该党的临时党魁？

英文原文 >> How many times have you actually been the interim leader of this party?

这……这是第三次。三次，很走运。

英文原文 >> This this is the third time. Three times. Lucky.

三次。“走运”怎么讲——

英文原文 >> Three times. L lucky defined how

呃，很走运地发现我们拥有一个很棒的党，呃，能够领导大家、帮助带领我们到达我们需要到达的位置，感觉很棒。呃，我们有一支优秀的党团，一个很棒的党，而且——

英文原文 >> uh lucky to find that um we have a great party and uh it's great to you know to lead people to help you know to get us to where we need to be. Uh got a great caucus, great party and

但除非一路历经千辛万苦，否则你不可能当上三次自由党党魁。

英文原文 >> but you don't get to be the three-time liberal leader unless there's lots of misery along the way.

是的。我是说我们确实面临挑战，但关键是我们紧紧团结在一起。你知道在2018年，所有人都说，他们完了，他们彻底不行了，他们背着一千万美元的债务。我们比其他所有政党都更早还清了债务，因为我们想出了办法。我们做了我们需要做的事情，到达了我们必须到达的位置。

英文原文 >> Yeah. There I mean we have our challenges but the thing is we stick together and you know in 2018 everybody said you know they're done. They're cooked. They have a $10 million debt. We paid down our debt before all the other parties did because we figured it out. We did what we needed to do to get to where we had to be.

一两周前我们在省议会见过面，你——

英文原文 >> You and I met at uh Queens Park a week or two ago and you

承认自己在数着日子。你还能当多少天党魁以及质询时间该党的第一位发言人。而我当时不得不纠正你，因为你说：“哦，只剩大概

英文原文 >> allowed that you you were kind of counting the days. How many days were left that you were going to be uh the the leader and the the the first speaker for the party in question period. And I I I had to correct you because you said, "Oh, there's only like

六七天了。”我说：“嗯，你其实并不清楚，因为竞选贵党下任党魁的候选人中有两位在议会中没有席位，你可能仍会是该党的门面。”

英文原文 >> six or seven more days." And I said, "Well, you don't actually don't know that because two of the candidates for your party's next leader don't have seats in the house, and you could still be the party's face."

不过他们也可以选择别人，理论上他们完全可以这么做。所以，

英文原文 >> They could choose somebody else, though, like they, you know, they could they could, you know, theoretically. So,

嗯，如果他们真那么做，可就太伤人了。

英文原文 >> well, that be pretty insulting if they did that, though.

哎，我倒不担心被冒犯，对于——

英文原文 >> Well, I I'm not worried about being insulted to

自由党的三任临时党魁——

英文原文 >> threetime interim leader of the Liberals

对我来说。所以有时我说这些话，只是个很好的陪衬……呃，你知道，我只要能以任何可能的方式提供服务就很开心了。呃，我确实非常喜欢质询时间，你可能注意到了，也可能没注意到。呃，我喜欢提问。

英文原文 >> to me. So sometimes I say these things, it's just kind of a good foil uh to um you know I um you know I you know I'm just happy to serve in whatever way in in whatever way that I can. Um um I do really enjoy question period. You may or may not have noticed. Uh I like asking questions.

呃，我认为我和省长之间有着一种我称之为特殊的关系。呃，所以——

英文原文 >> Um I think I have um what I would describe as a special relationship with the premier. Uh and so

不确定他会不会这么表述，不过好吧。

英文原文 >> not sure he'd put it that way but okay.

我觉得是挺特殊的，但可能并不是我所理解的那种方式。

嗯哼。

英文原文 >> I think special but maybe not in the way that uh I'm interpreting it.

Mhm.

呃，无论谁赢得党魁竞选，都将成为该党八年来的第四任党魁。呃，我们先是有凯瑟琳·韦恩，然后是史蒂文·德尔杜卡，再是邦妮·克龙比，呃，无论接下来的下一任是谁，都将是第四任党魁，当然还有你——

英文原文 >> Um, whoever wins the uh leadership will be the party's fourth leader in eight years. Uh, we had Kathleen win, then Steven Delduka, then Bonnie Crombi, uh, and whoever will be the the next one will be the fourth leader, and then of course you

呃，我是说，你累计担任的时间比其中一些人还要长。

英文原文 >> um, I mean, your cumulative time is more than some of those people.

呃，比所有那些人都长。

英文原文 >> Um, all of those people.

嗯，不会比凯瑟琳·韦恩还长吧。

英文原文 >> Well, not more than Kathleen Win.

呃，我想实际上是的。你担任该党的议会领袖有多久了？

英文原文 >> Uh, I think so, actually. How long have you been the parliamentary leader of the

议会领袖？我……嗯，有八……八年半，或者将近八年半了，这是很长的一段时间。呃，我算是挺久的了。其实这……这关乎的并不是……就像体育类比一样，这并不是要保持纪录或诸如此类的事情。这关乎的是保持……

英文原文 >> parliamentary leader? I Well, it's eight uh eight and a half years or almost eight and a half years, which is a long time. And uh I'm sort of up there. It's just it's actually um it's not about it's it's like the sports analogies. It's not about holding the record or anything like that. It's it's it's about holding it

一起走下去，对吧？那是

英文原文 together and going forward, right? That's

嗯，听着，我们这一路上吸取了很多教训，我们所有人都是，对吧？关于……关于什么是重要的，嗯，以及为了重新赢得人们的信任你必须做些什么。你知道，人们忘记的一件事是，你知道，整整八年我们都没有资金。立法机构里的其他政党各有四五百万美元。我们一无所有。

英文原文 >> um and look, we learned a lot of lessons on the way, all of us, right? about about what's important um and what you have to do in approaching uh regaining the trust of people. You know, one one of the things that people forget is, you know, for eight years we had no money. The other parties had four and $5 million a piece in the legislature. We had nothing.

我们有……

对。他们没有把我们界定为一个政党。当我们进入时，政府把门槛从8个席位提高到了12个席位，以此来增加难度。呃，因为这样做对他们有利，对吧？而你们没有达到那个门槛。

英文原文 >> We had

Yeah. They didn't define us as a party. When we came in, the government moved from eight seats to 12 seats to make it harder. Uh because it was to their advantage to do that, right? And you didn't hit that threshold.

而我们没有达到那个门槛。而且你知道，你知道，当我回顾2022年选举时的一件事是，我认为我们学到的教训之一，至少是我学到的，是你知道，你……你想全力一击争取打出全垒打，但当你投身于这样的事情时，我知道自己真正想做什么。我知道自己想达到什么目标。我需要做什么？而在那次选举中我们需要做的就是赢得12个席位。而我们并没有一个明确的计划来做到这一点。所以那是一个需要吸取的重要教训。嗯，你知道，整个资金问题就像……我不会去抱怨它，但这就像你的一只手臂被绑在背后、单手干活一样，对吧？并且，呃，这就是政治，政府这么做了，嗯，但是你知道因果报应，善恶有报，呃，我们看看这次会发生什么。

英文原文 >> And we didn't hit that threshold. And you know, you know, one of the things when I when I look back at the 2022 election is and one of the lessons that I think we've learned, at least I've learned, is you know, you you want to swing for the fences, but when you go into something like this is I know what I really want to do. I know where I want to get to. What do I need to do? And what we needed to do in that election was win 12 seats. And we didn't have a clear plan to do that. And so that was an important lesson to learn. um you know the the whole funding thing is like I'm not going to complain about it but it is like having a your arm tied behind your back and working with one hand right and uh that's politics the government did it um but you know what goes around comes around and uh we'll see what happens this time

党魁选举与成长空间

我想……你们有大约五万、五万五千名有资格在这次党魁竞选中投票的人。

英文原文 >> I would like to you've got what 50 55,000 people who are eligible to vote in this leadership contest

你认为对他们大多数人来说，最关心的是什么？

英文原文 >> what do you think is top of mind for most of them

嗯，我认为大多数人，嗯，都厌倦了这届政府，厌倦了省长，呃，而且他们想要获胜，对吧？嗯，而且我认为当人们审视……人们……在新党魁身上他们看重的不单单是胜选能力，我认为你还得看，你知道，几件事。那就是谁拥有最大的成长潜力，或者谁能够成长，对吧？以及谁工作最努力。

英文原文 >> well I I think that most people um are are tired uh of this government, tired of the premier uh and they want to win, right? Um and I think when people look at um the people um it's not just wability they look at in in in in a new leader, I think you have to look at, you know, a couple of things. It's who's got the greatest potential for growth or who's able to grow, right? And who's working the hardest

因为没有人第一天就能做到完美。所以成长能力很重要。

英文原文 >> because nobody's going to be perfect on day one. So capacity for growth is important

100%。但就……好的，这张桌子旁我们所有人能记起的每一位省长，在他们刚起步时，大家都会觉得“他永远成不了省长”、“她永远成不了省长”。每个人都是如此，无论哪个政党——迈克·哈里斯（Mike Harris）、道尔顿·麦坚迪（Dalton McGuinty）、凯瑟琳·韦恩（Kathleen Wynne）……

英文原文 >> 100%. But just okay every premier that any of us can remember around this table when they started everybody was like he's never going to be premier. She's never going to be premier. Everyone doesn't matter. Every party Mike Harris Daltton McGinty Kathleen win

比尔·戴维斯（Bill Davis）、道格·福特（Doug Ford）。

英文原文 >> Bill Davis Doug Ford.

不，不，他们其实从戴维斯29岁起就认为他会成为省长了。

英文原文 >> No no they they actually thought Davis was going to be premier from the time he was 29.

呃，抱歉。也许我没那么……没那么老，但我的意思是总会有怀疑者，对吧？而且……但是你知道，他也必须成长。就像他拥有那种成长潜力一样。他是一位出色的省长。嗯，而且你知道，我来自一个自由党家庭。嗯，呃，你知道，我们不……我们从来不是真正党派色彩浓厚的人，但我……我认为比尔·戴维斯是一位出色的省长，尽管他来自另一个党派。也许这就是让自由党人难以成功的原因，对吧？那就是我们……那就是他在成长，而且他理解比如六年的少数派政府。

就像那是……那是……那是好的。那是好的政治。那是好的领导力。所以当你看到这一点时，旗号是什么颜色并不重要，对吧？无论如何我都这么认为，虽然我确实穿着红色的毛衣，对吧，我想是的。

英文原文 >> Well

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm not that not that old, but I mean there there are always doubters, right? And but you know, he he had to grow, too. Like he had that potential for growth. He was a great premier. Um and you know, I I come from a liberal family. Um uh you know, we're not we're never really partisan, but I I thought Bill Davis was a great premier even though he was from another party. And maybe that's what the pro that's what made it hard for liberals to succeed, right? Is that we is that he grew and he understood like six years of minority government.

Like that's that's that's good. That's good politics. It's good leadership. And so it doesn't matter what the color is when you see that, right? I think anyways, although I do wear red sweat, right, I think.

呃，我们看到那点了，

英文原文 >> Uh we've seen that,

你知道的。是的。

英文原文 >> you know. Yeah.

立法机构席位与基层选战

呃，在这次党魁竞选的四位竞争者中，有两位在立法机构中没有席位，而另两位有。候选人之间在这点上一直存在一些分歧，比如像李·费尔洛（Lee Fairclough），例如，曾表示你知道她真切地认为下一任党魁必须在立法机构中拥有席位。嗯，自由党党员之前选出的人选在立法机构中就没有席位。你认为在立法机构中的那个席位、在质询时间直接与省长对抗的那种能力，会带来不同吗？这是自由党党员心中所想的吗？

嗯，事情是这样的：我认为最重要的事情、最重要的工作是在立法机构之外。我一直都是这么说的，呃，因为有124个选区。这是一个庞大的省份。你必须四处走动，对吧？并不是所有的东西都在多伦多市中心。我现在唯一要说的是，呃，基于我们在过去两次选举中的经验，如果你没有席位，你需要一个拿到席位的计划。而且你必须……你必须说明这就是我的计划。嗯，坦率地说，我们过去的两位……呃，在过去的两位……在过去两位党魁身上并没有这一点。嗯，嗯，而且那个……而且那个计划最好是一个强有力的计划。这不仅仅是说我打算做……我打算在这里参选，对吧？而是我要在这里参选，而且这是我将要做的事情以确保其实现，对吧？呃，所以，呃，我认为这很重要，呃，你得把这个作为你计划的一部分，因为你确实……嗯，这对我们过去的两位党魁来说非常艰难，呃，因为当时没有计划，或者那个计划不是一个好计划。

英文原文 >> Uh two of the four contenders in this leadership race uh do not have seats in the legislature to do. This has been a bit of a a point of distinction amongst the candidates with like Lee Fairlo for example has said you know she really thinks that the next leader does have to have a seat in the legislature. Um prior choices by the liberal membership did not have seats in the legislature. Do you think that that seat in the legislature that ability to confront the premier directly in question period does that make a difference? Is that in the mind of liberal members? Well, here's here's the thing is I I think the most important thing, the most important work is outside the legislature. I've always said that uh because there's 124 writings. It's a big province. You got to get around, right? Not everything is here in downtown Toronto. The only thing that I I say now uh because of our experience in the last two elections is if you don't have a seat, you need a plan to get one. And you have to you have to say that here's my plan. Um we didn't have that uh in the last two um uh in the last two in the last two leaders just quite frankly. Um um and that um that and that plan better be a strong plan. It's not just saying I'm going to do I'm going to run here, right? It's I'm going to run here and here's what I'm going to do to make sure that it happens, right? Uh, and so, uh, I think that's important, uh, that you have that as part of your plan because you do, um, it was very hard for our last two leaders, uh, because there wasn't a plan or the plan wasn't a a good plan.

呃，而且……

英文原文 >> Uh, and

让我……我能就这一点提出一点异议吗？因为我认为大家都知道史蒂文·德尔·杜卡（Steven Del Duca）打算在哪里参选。他打算在他过去拥有的那个席位参选……

英文原文 >> let me can I can I push back on that a little bit because I think everybody knew where Steven Deluca was going to run. He was going to run in the seat that he used to have

结果并没有成功。邦妮·克龙比（Bonnie Crombie）直到临近选举才决定她想在密西沙加的哪个席位参选，正合你刚才所说的。那显然是一个问题，因为她本需要更早得多地在某个地方确立阵地。

英文原文 >> and it didn't work out. Bonnie Crombie did not decide till just before the election which Missaga se seat she wanted to run in and apppropo of what you just said. That clearly was a problem because she needed to plant her flag somewhere much earlier.

嗯，我认为考虑到……考虑到如果你看一下……如果你看一下，这只是我的分析。如果你看一下我们在大流行之后所处的境地，呃，以及民调的情况和正在发生的事情，嗯，一个更安全的席位，尽管不是本地的，呃，本来会是一个更好的选择，一个更好的计划。而且，嗯，你知道，我……我理解为什么一个人会想在自己居住的地方参选。嗯，但是如果行不通的话，你确实需要在那里，就像如果它……因为这真的很艰难，你知道，这确实很难，而且……而且我相信他们两人都会告诉你，身为党魁却没有……你知道，没有身在其中（立法机构）是怎样的。所以，你得有一个计划。这样如果你的政党获胜了，对吧，或者你，你知道，成为了反对党，你会想身在其中。所以，

英文原文 >> Well, I I think given given if you take if you took a look at the uh if you took a look this is just my analysis. If you took a look at where we were uh after the pandemic uh and uh where the polling was and what was happening um a safer seat although not local uh would have been a better choice, a better plan and um you know I I understand uh why uh one would want to run where you where you lived. Um, but if it wasn't going to work, you do need to be there like if it cuz it's really hard, you know, it is hard and and I'm sure both of them would tell you to to be the leader and not, you know, not be in there. So, you want to have a plan. So, if your party wins, right, or you're, you know, become opposition, you want to be there. So,

我认为有一个计划很重要。是的。

英文原文 >> I think it's important to have a plan. Yeah.

你是否确信，如果其中一位没有……

英文原文 >> Are you satisfied that that if one of the candidates who doesn't

席位的候选人赢得了这次角逐？

英文原文 >> have a seat wins this thing?

是的。他们充分意识到了迅速解决这个问题的紧迫性吗？

英文原文 >> Yeah. that they are adequately seized of the importance of figuring that out quickly.

噢，是的。我是说，是的，它并不一定要立竿见影，对吧？但它必须是一个计划，对吧？也就是“我接下来打算做这件事。这就是我的计划。”你知道，我们往往会聚焦于“没有成功是因为这个”，对吧？嗯，并不仅仅是因为他们在立法机构中没有席位而没有成功。没有成功是因为我们需要在我们的基层选战上更加努力。而在一只手臂被绑在背后的情况下，要能够建立起一个政党是非常艰难的，对吧？嗯，呃，但那确实在立法机构中毫无资金。呃，而且……而且对我们来说筹款更加困难，因为正如……你知道，你知道党魁有助于筹款，嗯，嗯，你知道临时党魁就……你知道，就是个临时党魁，对吧？所以对我们来说筹款更困难，所以你知道，我认为我们必须整体地看待过去两次选举中发生的事情，对吧？

英文原文 >> Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, it it doesn't have to be immediate, right? But it has to be a plan, right? Which is I'm going to do this then. That's what my plan is. You know, we tend to focus on it didn't work because of this, right? Well, it didn't just not work because they didn't have a seat in the legislature. It didn't work because we needed to work harder on our ground game. And it was very hard with one arm tied behind our back to be able to build up a party, right? Um uh but that literally had no funds in the legislature. Uh and uh and it was harder for us to raise money because as um you know you know leaders helped to raise money um um you know interim leader is you know an interim leader right? So it was harder for us to raise money and so you know I think we have to look at in a holistic way what happened the last two elections right

并不单单是因为这个，对吧？在选举中，你在每个选区的地面选战都非常重要，你在地面上的策略。是的，有广告宣传，那很重要；空战也很重要，但你必须有地面人员，而要把那一块建立起来需要付出大量的工作。

英文原文 >> it wasn't just because of this right your ground game in an election in each writing is really important your strategy on the ground yes there's advertising it's important the air war is important but you got to have the people on the ground and it's a lot of work to build that up

A队与B队之问

顺着这一点，让我问一个很不客气的跟进问题，那就是现在联邦自由党在马克·卡尼（Mark Carney）的领导下是一个非常成功的品牌。他们做得非常、非常出色。而在这次党魁竞选期间，我听人多次说过这样的话：如果你是自由党人而且你有两把刷子，你现在就在渥太华。而B队正在参加这场党魁竞选。我听过很多次这种说法。现在，你不会去证实这一点，但我听过很多次了。而且我想……我想知道安大略自由党必须做些什么，才能被真正视为一个准执政党，真正被视为A队而不是B队，因为……

英文原文 >> appropo of that let me ask a very ungenerous follow-up question which is right now the federal liberals are a really successful brand under Mark Carney. They are doing really, really well. And I have heard it said numerous times during this leadership campaign. If you're a liberal and you're any good, you're in Ottawa right now. And the B team is running in in this leadership election race. I have heard that a lot. Now, you won't confirm that, but I have heard that a lot. And I I guess I want to know what does the Ontario Liberal Party have to do in order to be perceived as truly a government in waiting, truly an A team and not a B team because

所有优秀的人都去渥太华给卡尼工作了。

英文原文 all the good people have gone to Ottawa to work for Carney.

听着，我们不是二线队伍。我知道你知道我会这么说，但现实是，我们所负责的事情、对我们党而言重要的事情，是医疗、教育和经济。当我们最见成效的时候，就是向安大略人证明我们对这三件事都有切实规划的时候。那些党领候选人每一个都属于这个团队。和我一起共事的人也属于这个团队，对吧？我们正在建设一些东西。一直以来都有——你看，我最早其实是以联邦自由党人的身份起步的。那是我真正深入参与自由党事务的时候。后来我成了省自由党人。以前总觉得我们像是穷亲戚，对吧？我记得那一点。我很长时间都记得那样。也许那是源于那42年，对吧？但事情是这样的。

英文原文 >> Uh look, we're not a B team. Um, and I know you know I'm going to say that the reality is the things that we take care of, the things that are important to our party are healthcare and education and the economy. And when we're most effective, we demonstrate to Ontarians that we have a plan for all those three things. Each one of those leadership candidates are to be team. The people who work with me are to be team, right? we're building something. And you know, there's always been, look, I I I I I first started out really as a federal liberal. That's when I got really involved in liberal. Then I became a provincial liberal. And you know, it was always like, you know, uh we were the poor cousins, right? Uh I can remember that. I remember that for for a long time. And maybe that came out of that 42 years, right? But here's the thing.

你指的是那42年——

英文原文 >> The 42 years you're referring to the

是的。保守党王朝。

英文原文 >> Yeah. Tory dynasty.

保守党王朝，对吧？执政从43年到85年。

英文原文 >> Tory dynasty, right? Tower from 43 to 85.

安省高等教育与OSAP争议

戴维斯弥合了那段差距，不管怎么说吧。我是一名省自由党人。我认为我们照管的事情，比如你们的医疗保健，那种承诺——如果你生病了，别担心。而且别担心你的儿子或你的女儿，他们将会有机会，因为我们要确保他们能获得机会。如果我们做到了这一点，如果我们拥有健康、受过良好教育、高技能的人才，我们的经济就会好起来。这并不复杂。

所以，我们必须做的事情、我们的职责，就是要做好准备。这不仅仅是去击败现任政府。他们自己就会把自己打垮。我们的职责是：这是我们针对这些事项的规划。这些事情很重要。而且坦率地说，仅仅说政府做得很差是远远不够的，尽管他们确实做得很差。这完全是客观事实，看看眼下OSAP正在发生的事情就知道了。推动我们经济发展的核心是人。而我们现在却让人们变得更难掌握技能、更难找到更好的工作、更难接受教育。对吧？一位从根本上不理解高等教育重要性的省长。这是显而易见的。除了对各个家庭带来的坏消息之外，坏消息还在于——笨蛋，问题在于经济，那才是推动它的动力。所以那就是——

英文原文 >> So Davis bridged that gap, whatever that is. I'm a provincial liberal. I think the thing we take care of the things we take care of like your healthcare that that promise that if you get sick, don't worry. And don't worry your your your your son or your daughter, they're going to have opportunity because we're going to make sure that they have opportunity. And if we do that, if we have healthy, highly educated people, highly skilled people, our economy will do okay. It's not complicated.

And so, um, what we have to do, what our job is, is to be ready. It's not just to beat the government. They'll do that to themselves. Our job is here's our plan for these things. These things are important. And quite frankly, it's not good enough to say the government's doing a bad job of it, cuz they are. And and that's just objectively, look at what's happening with OSAP right now. The thing that fuels our economy is people. And we're making it harder for people to be skilled, to get better jobs, to be educated. Right? A premier who doesn't fundamentally understand the importance of postsecary education. It's very clear. And the bad news apart from the bad news for families is it's the economy, stupid, that's what drives it. So that's

那么我们来多谈谈OSAP。政府已经宣布有意引入立法和监管变更，以打击他们指控私立职业学院领域存在的滥用行为。我想你此前已经回应，称其为一份甩锅法案。

英文原文 >> So let's talk a little bit more about OSAP. Uh the government uh has announced that its intention to introduce uh legislative changes and regulatory changes to uh clamp down on what they allege were abuses in the uh private career college sector. Uh you I think have already reacted to calling it a a cover your ass bill.

议长先生，议长先生，

英文原文 >> Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker,

那里用到了不合议会规范的语言。

英文原文 >> unparliamentary language there.

嗯，我们拭目以待TVO的标准与惯例部门会怎么说。也许我能逃过一劫。

英文原文 >> Um well, we'll see what TVO standards and practices has to say. Maybe I get out there.

我也用了另一个词来形容它，但我在这里不会用那个词。嗯——

英文原文 >> I use another word to describe it, too, but I'm not going to use that here. Um

这是一个阖家观看的电视台，约翰。不过，你认为这项法案或这项——

英文原文 >> uh it's it's a family station, John. Um but, uh what do you see as the the primary flaws in the bill or in the

我还没看到那份法案。我还没看到那份法案。

英文原文 >> I haven't seen the bill yet. I haven't seen the bill yet.

事情是这样的，早在这一切发生之前，审计长就已经向政府发出过警告，指出这种情况将会发生。

英文原文 >> Here's here here's the thing is the the government was warned by the auditor general way before this happened that this was going to happen.

而且就像绿化带以及技能发展那样，整件事最终都卷入了筹款之中，对吧？在审计长的报告出炉后，那些职业学院为当时的厅长举办了一场15万美元的筹款活动，对吧？然后这种筹款还在继续。所以感觉同样的事情正在发生。但事实是这样的，对吧？省长让学院、公立学院挨饿，或者说是政府让它们挨饿，解雇了1万人，在这个省数十家机构中砍掉了数百门课程。随后这些学院、私立职业学院填补了空缺，对吧？但接着所有这些事情都发生了，他们就任由其野蛮生长，就好像——我看到的现象简直太疯狂了。然后他们的解决方案，对吧？一旦问题变得太大并且真的败露了，就是对那些带着家庭、可能辞了职、冒了险、在课程开学7周后拿到OSAP贷款的人说：贷款不会下来了。

而且政府还逼他们自己付钱，还对他们说：“等等，再等等。”那么，问题就在这里。买菜的账单可等不了。房租等不了。房贷等不了。财产税也等不了。政府犯下了——这是一个巨大的错误。但除了所有政府都会犯大错之外，对我们而言重要的一点是，对吧？不管这里面有没有丑闻还是别的什么，眼下是人们正在受到伤害，受到了极其严重的伤害，而他们在这整个混乱中被抛诸脑后了。而政府呢，他们还在说：“不，你们就继续等一件根本不会兑现的事情吧。”

英文原文 >> And like the green belt and like skills development, this whole thing winds into fundraising, right? You had the career colleges doing $150,000 after the auditor general's report doing a $150,000 fundraiser for the minister at the time, right? And then this fundraising continues. So it's like the same thing is happening. But here's the story, right? The premier starved or the government starved colleges, public colleges, fired 10,000 people, lost hundreds of courses in in dozens of institutions across this province. And then the these colleges, career colleges filled the gap, right? But then all this stuff happened where they just let it run wild like it like it it is crazy what I see. And then their solution to to it, right? once it get problem gets too big and they literally get discovered is to say to people who have with families who have maybe quit a job, taken a risk, got an OSAP loan 7 weeks into their course, the loan's not coming,

and the government's making them pay, and they're saying, "Wait, wait." Well, here's the problem. Grocery bills don't wait. The rent doesn't wait. The mortgage doesn't wait. Property taxes don't wait. The government has this is a colossal mistake. But the thing that's important for us to remember apart from all governments make big mistakes, right? And whether there's scandal or whatever is right now people are getting hurt, badly hurt, and they're getting lost in this whole thing. And the government, you know, they're they're saying, "No, you just wait for something that's not going to come."

是的。你不得不对那些规划好自己的人生去读这些私立职业学院的人抱有极大的同情，结果在开学一个月后，他们突然发现自己陷入困境、无处可去，因为其中一些学院已经关闭，而他们拿不到补贴或类似的资金。在多大程度上把这种情况归咎于安大略省政府才算公允？这很大程度上是由——这可以说是“有很多父亲的一场败局”，如果我可以这么说的话。你知道，留学生签证的削减在其中起了一定作用。事实上——

英文原文 >> Yeah. You h you have to have a lot of sympathy for people who plan their lives to be at these private career colleges and a month into the season they suddenly find themselves high and dry, no place to go because some of them have shut down and they can't get their subsidies or whatever. Um, is it really how how fair is it to blame the government of Ontario for this situation? Much of which was much of which has this is a defeat that has a lot of fathers if I can put it that way. You know, the cut back in foreign students, visas has a part to play in this. The fact that

我想是有两三家职业学院似乎拿走了极不相称的一大部分资金。我的意思是，围绕这件事似乎在许多不同方面存在大量的渎职行为。你能把这一切在多大程度上归咎于安大略省政府？

英文原文 >> I think what is it two two or three of the career colleges seem to get a hugely disproportionate part of the money. I mean, there seems to be a lot of malfeasants going around this in many different ways. How much can you blame the government of Ontario for all of this?

公立学院制度的演变与个人经历

很大程度上。因为事情就是从这里开始的，而且这绝不是因为党派之见或诸如此类的原因。我们在这方面建立了一套职业学院系统和高等教育系统。这并不是——其中很大一部分是保守党政府建立的，比尔·戴维斯，对吧？我们建立学院，对吧？我们这样做是因为我们希望我们的孩子们能够成功。

英文原文 >> Um, a lot. And because here's where it started and and not because it's partisan or anything like that. We built a career college system and a post-secondary system in this. It it wasn't a lot of it was conservative governments, Bill Davis, right? We colleges, right? We did this because we wanted our kids to succeed

而且这是一项公共利益。随后，政府让那些学院陷入资源匮乏，继而允许外国留学生来填补资金缺口，而不是去悉心维护我们共同建设的成果。接着他们解雇了1万人，砍掉了数百门课程——比如你在多伦多这里就能看到的烹饪课程，各种各样的课程，那些我们在经济中所需要的东西，对吧？随后重心开始转向这些职业学院。

政府开始从它们身上筹集资金，所有这些事情都源于为该党筹集资金的手段，进而他们迷失了方向。这件事情很复杂，但归根结底，它始于未能真正保护一项公共利益。学院系统并不是党派性质的事物，它不是自由党专属的东西。它不是——你甚至可以说它是保守党的事物。但是历届不同党派的政府，自由党、新民主党、保守党，都曾支持这一点；而现任省长却任由它萎缩，事情就是这样开始的。每当我想起这件事，我都感到愤怒，因为这很不公平。

英文原文 >> and it was a public good. So then the the government starved those colleges and then allowed foreign students to fill up a gap instead of taking care of the thing that we built together. Then they fire 10,000 people and hundreds of course like you can see them here in Toronto, a culinary course, all sorts of things, things we need in the economy, right? And then it starts going towards these career colleges.

the government starts fundraising out of them and it's all these things stem from an ability to raise money for the party and then they lose their way. This thing is complicated, but at the end of the day, it started with not actually protecting a public good. A college system that was not a partisan thing, wasn't a liberal thing. It wasn't a you could arguably say it was a conservative thing. But successive governments of different stripes, liberal, NDP, conservative, all supported this this premier allowed it to wither and that's how it started. And when I think about it, it makes me angry because it's unfair.

你认为这——我总是在这类事情中寻找理论解释。福特先生在步入政坛之前曾就读于汉博学院，仅几个月后就退学了。高等教育并不适合他。他最终在私营领域拥有了非常成功的职业生涯。你认为他是否因为那段经历而对学院系统抱有敌意？

英文原文 Do you think it's I I look for theories in these kinds of things. Um Mr. Ford before he got into politics was a Humber College attendee and dropped out after just a few months. Postsecary wasn't for him. He ended up having a very successful career in the private sector. Do you think he is hostile to the college system because of that experience?

是的，我认为他并不理解它。我的意思是，我认为他无法从这个角度去理解：并非每个人都有后盾。并非每个人都含着金汤匙出生。并非每个人都有一个可以继承的家族企业。那并不是——我不是，你知道，我并没有因为他拥有那些而批评他。但那并不是绝大多数人的视角，而绝大多数人依赖公立学院，对吧？所以这并不意味着你做不到。你看，我不是大学毕业生。我也不是大专毕业生。我取得了成功，但我的孩子们全都毕业了，对吧？

英文原文 >> Yeah, I don't think he understands it. I mean, I don't think he understands from the point of view that um not everybody has a backs stop. Not everybody uh comes from money. Not everybody has a family business that they can inherit. And that's not I don't I don't you know I don't criticize him for having that. But it's not the perspective of the vast majority of people and they rely on public colleges, right? And so it doesn't mean you can't. Look, I'm not a university grad. I'm not a college grad. I've been successful, but I'm all of my kids have all graduated, right?

高中毕业后你做了什么？

英文原文 >> What did you do after high school?

我直接去——我19岁时成了父亲，然后我开始在食品杂货行业工作。我做了22年的杂货店经理。我花了很多时间学习和接受教育。我很小的时候、十几岁的时候就在家里学会了批判性思维。那对我整个历程都有所助益。这比——这是一条稍微更漫长的路径，相比于我在做……你知道，当时

英文原文 >> I I went straight was dad was when I was 19 and I started working in the grocery business. I managed grocery stores for 22 years. Uh I spent a lot time learning and educating. I learned how to think critically at home when I was uh very young when I was at you know in my in my teen years. Uh and that's helped me all the way through. Uh it was a bit longer route uh than uh I was doing you know while

当我的朋友们在学习、玩乐的时候，琳达和我却在为人父母，对吧，那是一段塑造性格的经历。

英文原文 while my friends were learning and having fun uh Linda and I were being mom and dad right uh and that was a formative experience.

我们应该说明一下，你现在还和你的第一任妻子在一起，对吧？

英文原文 >> We should say you're still with your first wife aren't you?

是的。是的。我想是的。我想是的。对。我想我……是的。不，我们还在一起。不，她……呃

英文原文 >> I am. I am. I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think I Yes. No, I am. No, she's uh

你在19岁就当了父亲，而你现在依然和那个女人在一起。

英文原文 >> you became a dad at 19 and you're still with that woman.

是的。百分之百。是的。是的。不，我们……我很幸运。就像我……不过分感伤地说，我过着一种受上天眷顾的生活。能够去做我一直以来能做的所有事情，当父亲、参政，坦白讲，还有在杂货店管理人，以及我拥有的所有人际关系。我们只是得小心，不要把我们自己投射到我们正在为他人做的事情上，对吧？

前几天有人提醒了我这一点，因为我有一位同事对我说，他说，你看，你说了这些话。我们在讨论质询时间以及做准备的事，你知道我总会提建议，对吧？他们说，是的，但你经历过那么多次，对吧？你出场机会多，所以对你来说，在提问时做这套动作更容易。我当时就想，噢，是啊，我是在某种程度上把我自己的经验投射到了我的指导方式中。这是一件好事。

所以我认为你必须小心。就像我对我的孩子们说，别像我那样做。当时太难了，那不是正确的做法。我想我父亲也对我说了同样的话，别做我做过的事。所以我非常坚信公共教育和高等教育。你知道，我们能做越多事情让人们进入高等教育体验、接受教育、参加学徒培训——老兄，这就是经济所在。那就是你建设强大经济的方式。历任省长都明白这一点，或者我该说曾经明白这一点。而现任省长，并不明白这一点。看看我们的高等院校发生了什么，OSAP发生了什么，我们的专科学院发生了什么，这一点显而易见。

现在我们面临着经济问题，情况是这样的：我们刚刚得到了一个负面展望，我们从稳定展望变成了负面展望。我并不是说天要塌下来了。我们面临着巨大的赤字。如果我们不去培养那些我们需要用来建设经济的人才，我们又该如何去建设我们的经济呢？对吧。

英文原文 >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. No, we we uh I'm really lucky. like I uh without getting too modeling about stuff, I'd lead a charmed life. Um and to be able to do all the things that I've been able to do to be a dad and to to be in politics and you know, quite frankly to to manage manage people and um in in the grocery store and just um all the relationships that I have and I I just we have to be careful not to project ourselves on the things that we're doing for people, right? Um, you know, it's um I was reminded that the other day because I had a colleague tell me he said, you know, like, well, yeah, you're saying this. Uh, we're we're talking about question periods and getting prepped and you know, I always have advice, right? Um, and they said, yeah, but you get so many, right? You get reps, so it's easier for you to to do this thing inside your question. And I went like, oh yeah, you know, I'm not I was sort of projecting my experience in in how I was coaching. And it was a good it was a good thing. So I I think you have to, you know, you have to be careful. Like I um I mean for my kids it's like don't do it the way I did it. It was and I think my dad said the same thing to me. It's like don't do what I do. It's just it was too hard. Like it was not the right way to do it. And so I really believe in public education and postsecond you know, you know, the more we can do to get to get people into post-secary experiences, education, apprenticeships, it's like that's it's it's the economy, man. That's how you build a strong economy. You know, successive premers understand that, understood that I should say this premier, and I'm, you know, does not understand that. It it's obvious, it's apparent as to what's happened in our postsecary institutions, what's happened with OSAP, what's happened to our colleges. And um and now we have economic, you know, here's the, you know, here's the thing. We we just got a negative, you know, we went from a stable to a negative outlook. You know, I'm not saying the sky is falling. We got a big deficit. How are we going to build our economy if we we're not building up the people who we need to build our economy? Right.

临时党领与党内领导权

回到出场锻炼这个话题。正如我们之前提到的，这是你第三次担任临时党领。但肯定发生过的一件事是，在你第二次担任时，现在到了第三次又是这样，

英文原文 >> Back to the topic of reps. This is your, as we mentioned before, your third time as interim leader, but one of the things that has happened certainly with your second time and and now again with your third,

确实有人对我说过，比如，

英文原文 >> people have said to me certainly like

弗雷泽在这方面这么出色，为什么他们不让他担任正式党领呢？而你从未尝试过去成为该党的正式党领。你从未竞选过这个永久职位。为什么不呢？

英文原文 >> Frasier is so good at this, why wouldn't they make him the the permanent leader? and you have never tried to uh become the the the permanent leader of the party. You have never run for uh the permanent post. Why not?

坦白讲，第一次的时候，我知道自己的职责是什么。选举结束后的周五早上我起床时说，我们必须立刻投入工作。所以两天后我对我的同事们说，我来当临时党领。我不会去参选，因为我们必须团结在一起。因为那项工作是最重要的工作。

第二次的时候，我不能说我从未考虑过，我确实考虑过。我和我的姐妹们当时在照顾我们的母亲，她处于生命的最后几年，我们在帮她留在自己的家中生活。这需要大量的工作和大量的时间。所以，那对我来说是最重要的事。而我知道自己作为临时党领所做的事情，是在帮助我的另一个家庭，帮助党向前发展。

我认为这一次仍然是因为家庭。我67岁了，精力充沛。你看，我得到了很多露面机会，有很多锻炼机会。

英文原文 >> Um just, you know, quite frankly, the first time around, I knew what my job was. I got up the Friday morning after the election, I said, we're just we got to get to work. So, I just said to my colleagues two days later, I'll be the interim leader. I'm not going to run because we got to stay together. Cuz that work was the most important work. Uh the second time around, um um I I can't say I've never thought about it that I didn't think about it. Um my sisters and I were taking care of our mom uh who she was in the last years of her life or helping her stay in her home. So that required a lot of work, a lot of time. And so um that was what was most important to me. And I knew the thing I was doing as an interim leader was helping my other family, the party going forward. Um and I and I think this time still family. Um I'm 67. I've got lots of energy. Look, I I get lots of air time. I get lots of reps.

以67岁来说，你的头发保养得真好。

英文原文 You got good hair for 67.

我状态还不错。是的。我状态还不错。不过头发下面脑子里还是有点货的。我想有时大家对此可能会有争论，但这地方很大。我知道我现在看起来精力充沛，但我的电池耗尽得更快，充电需要更长时间。我认为应该由更年轻的人来做，因为这涉及到大量的出行。你不会只去一次蒂明斯，对吧？你得去蒂明斯好几次。这是繁重的工作。而且这是一份为期10年的合同。10到12年的合同，对吧？最好也要10年，可能是12年或15年。去问通道尔顿·麦坚迪就知道了，去问凯瑟琳·韦恩就知道了。我是说，虽然她……但这需要一段时间才能实现。

所以，我希望确保我们的党处于最有利的位置来组建政府，因为我相信我们能够处理好对人们真正重要的事情，我对此深信不疑，也坚信我能为那个团队做出贡献。我可以通过很多不同的方式来做。我是去提供帮助的，对新领袖，他们需要我做什么，我就在那里。

英文原文 >> I'm doing okay. Yeah. Uh I'm I'm doing okay. There is something in between the hair though in between. Uh I think there may be some debate about it sometimes, but it's, you know, it's a big place. I know that um I look like got to have a lot of energy right now, but my battery runs out faster and it takes longer to charge. And I think a younger person because there's a lot of travel. You don't go to like Timonss once, right? You go to Timonss a few times. It's a lot of work. And it's a 10-year contract. 10 12 year contract, right? 10 years at the best. Maybe 12 or 15. Just ask Dalton McGinty. Ask Kathleen when right. I mean, know she but it took a while to get there. Um, and so I want to make sure our party is best positioned to uh to become government because I believe that we can take care of the things that are really important to people and I have a strong belief in that and how I can contribute to that team. Um, I can do it in many different ways. I I'm there to help, you know, I'm there at at the new leader. I'm at I'm there for whatever they want from me.

那么，如果下一任领袖搞砸了，你愿意第四次担任临时党领吗？

英文原文 >> Well, if the next leader flames out, do you want to be the interim leader a fourth time?

你看，有这么一件事我跟……好吧，我不打算直接回答那个问题，但我会回答一个问题。那就是：不。我对我的孩子们以及与我共事的人常说的一句话是，你可以在你所在的位置发挥领导作用。就在你所在的位置去领导。你不需要门上有那个头衔。你可以成为一名领导者，而且有时即使人们不知道你在发挥领导作用，你也可以成为领导者，因为你的门上没有那块名牌。

所以领导力真正的意义在于提携你周围的人，让你的团队变得更好。看任何一支运动队，对吧？他们是怎么描述的，“他就是让我们变得更好”，“她就是让我们变得更好”，对吧？这就是它的全部意义所在。

所以你不必成为明星四分卫才能做到这一点。你也不必成为教练。有时正是团队中的某一个人提携了大家，为整个团队增添了力量，对吧？

所以我清楚自己……我知道我非常在意这一切，我在意我们有机会在政府中所做的事情，那些我们应该去做的、帮助人们、让我们的经济更强大的事情。因此，我可以在各种各样不同的位置上去做这些事。

英文原文 >> Look, um, here's here's something I tell Okay, here I'm not going to answer that question, but I'll answer question. It's no uh it's um what I say to my my kids and and and people who work with me is, you know, you you can lead from where you're at. Lead from where you're at. You don't have to have the title on the door. You can be a leader, and sometimes you can be a leader without people knowing you're being a leader because you don't have the name plate on the door. So leadership is really about lifting up the people around you and making your team better. Look at any sports team, right? How they describe, he just makes us better. She just makes us better, right? That's what it's all about. And so um you don't have to be the star quarterback to do that. You don't have to be the coach. And sometimes it's one person on a team that lifts people up and and that adds to that thing, right? So, I I um you know, I I I know what I like I can like I know that I care a lot about this, that I care about the things that we do get a chance to do in government, the stuff that we're supposed to do to help people to make our economy stronger. And so, I can do that from all sorts of different places.

太好了。你还有别的想说的吗？

英文原文 >> Great. You got anything else?

那个，好吧，再问一个。他脸上的表情就像是他不会轻易放我走一样。那么，正如你所说，你现在已经做过三次临时党领了，我想知道这份工作是否存在一个周期规律？比如，在你担任临时党领的第一天，这种情况通常发生在败选之后，党内可能处于群龙无首、不知究竟该何去何从的状态，而你介入进去，拥有很大的施展空间；然后，随着越来越接近针对新领袖的实际投票，你是否会觉得需要适度收敛一些、注意自己的言辞，以免开出任何未来领袖不得不去……

英文原文 >> Well, you know, okay, one more. He had that look on his face like he's not letting me go. So um you as you said you've done this now three times and I wonder is there like a life cycle to the the the the the job in that like when you you know that day that first day as interim leader it has had it has happened after a defeat the the the party might be at loose ends and not knowing exactly where to go and you you step in and you've got a lot of room to maneuver and then as you get closer and closer to the actual voting for the new leader do feel the need to maybe trim your sales a little bit and watch what you say so that you don't uh write any checks that the future leader is going to have to be

噢，是的。不，我没有在为未来的领袖开支票。情况是这样的。作为临时党领，我确实占据了一些空间，我填补了这个空间。我也努力确保我身边的人同样能够填补那个空间。但我确实占据了很大空间。所以，我思考的事情之一就是，我必须少占一些空间，对吧？就像我必须找到恰到好处的节奏，这就是下一个挑战。

而且，我不知道接下来会发生什么。我真的不知道。所以从某种角度来说这挺令人兴奋的，因为这就像是我必须时刻做好准备，对吧？在担任临时党领的整个过程中，我必须准备好面对那天出现在我面前的任何事情，面对那个挑战，面对那场选举之后、在我们有了新领袖之后的一切。我只需要为此做好准备，对吧？

所以，但我不知道具体会是什么，我也不能为此焦虑。我不能花很多时间去想这件事。我得活在当下。我得

英文原文 >> Oh yeah. No, I I'm not I'm not writing checks for the future leader. Uh um you know, here's the thing. Um as an interim leader, I I I I take up some space. I I fill the space. I try to make sure that the people around me can fill that space as well, too. But I I take up a lot of space. So, one of the things I think about is um I have I have to take up less space, right? Like I have to like it's it's like finding that right groove, which is the next challenge. And you know, it's I don't know what's going to happen. I really don't. And so that's kind of exciting in a way because it's like I just have to be ready, right? Uh and this through the whole process of being I got to be ready for whatever comes in front of me that day, that challenge, after that election, after we have a new leader. I just have to be ready for that, right? So, um, but I don't know what it's going to be and and I can't worry about it. I can't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I got to live in the moment. I got to

活在当下。所以，在周六下午晚些时候的某个时刻，我就只需要活在当下。而且，呃，我认为这，我认为这很令人兴奋。还有，呃，为此做好准备的过程。嗯，这整件事，你知道，过去这八年多的时间，全都是关于做好准备。每天都做好准备，并且，并且，呃，活在当下。不要去担心发生过什么。不要想得太远。

英文原文 work in the moment. So, on Saturday at sometime later in the afternoon, it'll be like I'll just have to be in the moment. And uh I think that's I think that's exciting. And uh the process of being ready for that. Um and that's what the whole thing, you know, the last eight years and change have been all about is just being ready. being ready every day and and being uh in the moment. Don't worry about what happened. Don't think too far ahead.

嗯，你显然为我们做好了充分的准备，我们非常感激——

英文原文 >> Well, you were pretty clearly ready for us and we're grateful

随它去吧。我不知道。就是今天早晨，呃，或者说今天，神经元突触都很活跃。

英文原文 >> that we go. I don't know. It's the synapses are firing this morning uh or today.

呃，我们真的很感激你决定今天来到 TVO，在我们的播客节目中回答问题。我们周六下午再见，因为我们想提醒大家，安大略省自由党党魁选举将在多伦多大都会会议中心举行。11月21日，我们将带来唯一的全程特别直播报道。因此，欢迎在周六下午加入我们的 TVO Today YouTube 频道，跟随 JMM 和我一起体验所有乐趣、喜悦和活动。John Fraser，非常感谢你今天的到来。

英文原文 >> Uh we're really grateful you decided to come into TV today and take our questions here on the on poly podcast and we will see you on the Saturday afternoon because we want to remind everybody that the Ontario Liberal Leadership is going to be happening at the Metro Toronto Convention Center. November 21st and we're going to have the only Gavl togavl special live stream coverage. So join us on the TVO today YouTube channel on Saturday afternoon and follow all the fun and joy and activities with JMM and me. John Fraser, thanks a lot for coming in today.

这是我的荣幸。太棒了。很高兴来到这里。很高兴见到你们两位。

英文原文 >> It's my pleasure. It's great. It's great to be here. Great to see you guys.

非常感谢。

英文原文 >> Thank you so much.

谢谢。

英文原文 >> Thanks.

专栏聚焦：住房贷款政策与多单元住宅

现在进入我们的常规板块，“你的专栏，我的专栏”，在这一板块中，JMM 和我将就过去一周我们在 tvo.org 上撰写的内容进行一番闲聊。McGrath 先生，你今天打算给我们带来什么？

英文原文 >> Time now for our regular feature, your column, my column, in which JMM and I are going to have a little chitchat here about the stuff we wrote for tvO.org over this past week. Mr. McGrath, what will you favor us with today?

呃，我经常强行把住房政策的讨论灌输给你和我们的听众，因为我，呃，我的大脑就是这么个结构。所以现在我要讲一些比住房政策更吸引人的东西。那就是住房贷款实践。

英文原文 >> Uh, I regularly uh impose discussions of housing policy on you and our listeners because I uh my my brain is broken that way. And so now I'm going to do something even sexier than housing policy. It's housing lending practices.

哦，那可酷多了。

英文原文 >> Oh, that is so much cooler.

这真是一场激烈的重头戏。嗯，但是我……好吧，所以，呃，我们在多伦多市以及加拿大各地的城市，得益于一些联邦政策。呃，关于，呃，允许将四单元住宅作为法定权利，我们有过很多争论。对吧。单一建筑物在单一，呃，地块上的四套住宅。并且，呃，你知道安大略省有些城市选择允许这样做，有些城市则选择不允许。安大略省自由党在他们上次，呃，竞选中曾表示，他们将让这成为所有安大略省市镇的强制性要求。四单元住宅不太足够，或者从历史上看一直不太足够的，嗯，原因之一，是因为，呃，来自联邦贷款机构等机构的贷款援助，呃，以及通过联邦，呃，抵押贷款保险机构 CMHC 提供的支持，呃，门槛起始于五个单元。所以四单元住宅实际上刚好比那个能够为住房项目开启大量更容易获取的资金的门槛少了一个单元。我本可以深入长篇大论，谈谈历史上最强大的联邦住房工具恰恰就是这些贷款政策，但我现在不打算那么做，因为我们没有那么充裕的时间。我要说的是，在联邦财政部长上周提交的2026年预算案中，呃，联邦政府正在针对，呃，抵押贷款保险和建筑贷款制定新规则，这些规则将涵盖三单元和四单元的建筑物。也就是三单元住宅和四单元住宅。呃，单就这本身而言就是个好消息，但在安大略省尤其具有现实意义，因为从2022年或23年以来。嗯，我们全安大略省，呃，在省法中都有规定：作为市镇，你必须允许在每个住宅地块上建造三单元住宅，或者你必须允许建造双单元住宅外加一个独立的附属单元，比如车库上方的公寓那种形式。所以基本上在安大略省的任何地方，只要是住宅地块，除去极少数例外，你都必须允许至少建三个单元。现在，或者至少从二月份开始，得益于这项联邦政策，呃，你将更容易获得私人抵押贷款保险和建筑贷款。所以这是其中之一，这是一个非常微小的细节，而且是的，这确实正是人们期望从我这里听到的那种书呆子式的细节——再次参见我坏掉的大脑。嗯，但是你知道，我认为这是那些可能会以一种潜移默化的方式产生影响的事情之一，因为我们终于看到，你知道，省和联邦的政策在以这种方式走向一致。而我们真正需要的，是我们仍然需要出台一些市镇层面的政策，让其中一些建筑物更容易建造。呃，因为口头上说你在技术上被允许在一栋建筑里拥有三个单元是一回事，但如果你实际上不允许这种建筑物的物理形态，依然没有人会去建造它。

英文原文 >> It's a real barn burner. Um but I Okay, so uh we here in the city of Toronto and cities across Canada thanks to some federal policy. Uh we've had a lot of arguments about uh allowing forplexes as of right. Right. Four homes in a single uh building on a single uh lot. And uh you know there have been cities in Ontario that have opted to allow that and cities that have not. The Ontario Liberals in their last uh campaign had said that they would make that uh obligatory on all Ontario municipalities. One of the reasons why forplexes are not quite enough or have historically not been quite enough um is because the cut off for uh lending assistance for uh from like federal lenders uh like uh and and supports through CHC the federal uh mortgage insurance body uh starts at five units. So forplex is literally just one shy of uh the threshold that would open up a bunch of uh easier money for uh housing projects. And I could go into a whole thing about how like historically the most powerful federal housing tool has been exactly these lending policies, but I'm not going to do that right now because we don't have that kind of time. What I will say is that in budget 2026, which was presented last week uh by the federal finance minister, uh the federal government is making uh new rules for uh mortgage insurance and for construction loans that will address uh three and four unit uh buildings. So, triplexes and forplexes. Uh that is good news just on its own, but it is particularly relevant in Ontario because ever since 2022 or 23. Um, we have across Ontario uh had rules in provincial law that have said you have to as a municipality allow for either triplexes on every residential lot or you have to have uh allow uh a duplex plus like a detached accessory unit like a an apartment over a garage kind of thing. So basically everywhere in Ontario if it's a residential lot with a handful of exceptions you have to allow at least three units. now or at least starting in February thanks to this federal policy uh you will have much easier access to uh private mortgage insurance and construction lending. So it's one of these it's it's a very small and it's yes this is like exactly the kind of nerdy detail that people expect from me again see my broken brain. Um, but you know, it is one of those things that I think could matter in a kind of a sneaky way because we are finally getting, you know, provincial and federal policies to line up uh in this way. And what we really need is we still need some municipal policies to come in and and make some of these buildings easier to build. Uh because it's one thing to say you you're technically allowed to have three units in a building, but if you if you don't actually allow the physical form of the building, nobody still nobody will build it.

所以这是一件好事。

英文原文 >> So this is a good thing.

这确实是一件好事。希望它能促成建造更多的住房，而且你知道，当然在安大略省的背景下，尽管今年住房行业出现了一些复苏，但过去几年一直相当惨淡。呃，能看到更多的房屋被建造出来会是一件好事。

英文原文 >> It is a good thing. Hopefully it will allow more homes to get built and you know certainly in the context of this province where we've had a pretty bleak few years, albeit with some some recovery in the housing sector this year. Uh it would be nice to see more homes get built.

联邦补选及其政治影响

阿门。我想聊聊补选。行吗？而且你知道，生活中有这样一种理论，认为补选其实没有那么重要。它们只是某个时间点的切片，但如果它们不影响当届政府现状的结果，那谁在乎呢？或者还有另一种理论，认为它们代表着绝对的一切。而我认为对于即将到来的补选来说，它们代表着绝对的一切。我们已经宣布了六场补选。这是定于12月举行的联邦下议院补选。然后一旦我们刚才谈到的 Parry Sound—Muskoka 选区国会议员 Scott Aitchison 辞职，还会宣布另一场补选。因此，下个月或未来几个月内将迎来七场联邦补选。

英文原文 >> Amen. I want to talk about bi-elections. Okay? And you know, there's this theory in life that bi-elections are really not all that important. They're a snapshot in time, but if they don't affect the outcome of the status of the government of the day, then who cares? Or there's another theory that they mean absolutely everything. And I think for the bi-elections that are coming up, they mean absolutely everything. We have six bi-elections that have been called. This is for the Federal House of Commons for December. And then once Scott Ages, who we talked about a moment ago, the MP for Paristown Muskoka steps down, there will be another bi-election called. So that's seven federal bi-elections coming up either next month or in the next few months.

是的。

英文原文 >> Yeah.

而且我认为如果说这些补选的结果可能决定 Pierre Poilievre 是否仍能担任国王陛下的忠实反对党领袖，这一点也不夸张。如果我们在六到十二个月后坐在这里看，其中两个最具争议的角逐将发生在安大略省。长期以来它们一直都是保守党的安全席位，但看看民调。它们可能不再安全了。其中之一是在一个叫 Brantford—Brant South 的地方。我之前在这个播客里谈论过 Davis 先生一会儿。好的，这是另一位代表保守党在这里参选的 Davis 先生。他的名字叫 Kevin Davis。他是 Brantford 的前市长，显然是该选区最大的市镇。他获得了被任命为保守党候选人的资格。现在他作为一位市长，拥有很高的知名度，但 Pierre Poilievre 直接任命他担任该职位，而不是召开一次提名会议让其他感兴趣的候选人竞争提名。这着实惹怒了一位名叫 Dave Carrol 的人，他是一位社区组织者，声誉良好，但因为被剥夺了竞选提名的机会，他打算作为独立候选人参选。啊，

英文原文 >> And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the outcome of these bi-elections could determine whether Pierre Pyv is still the leader of his majesty's loyal opposition. If we sit here six to 12 months from now, two of the most of the most controversial contests will be here in the province of Ontario. They have been safe conservative seats for a very long time, but look at the polls. They may not be safe anymore. One of them is in a place called Brford Branch South. I've been talking about Mr. Davis for a bit on this podcast. Okay, this is another Mr. Davis who is running here for the Conservatives. His name is Kevin Davis. He is the former mayor of Brford, the biggest municipality obviously in the writing. He got an appointment to be the conservative nominee. Now he's a mayor. He's got high name recognition, but Pierre Polyv appointed him to the position rather than have a nominating meeting where other interested candidates could v for the nomination. That really angered a guy named Dave Carroll who's a community organizer, got a good reputation, but because he was deprived of the opportunity to run for the nomination, he's going to run as an independent. Ah,

那将会分散 Brantford—Brant South 选区保守党的选票。你知道当一个政党的选票被分散时会发生什么，这就可能让另一个政党从中渔利。在这个案例中，自由党候选人上次参选过，这次她又参选了。她是商会的会长。嗯，你知道，即使保守党上次以10个百分点的优势赢下了该选区，这次她获胜也并非不可想象。所以，我们将密切关注这一点。自2008年以来，该选区一直由保守党占据。

另一个值得关注的是 Scott Aitchison 的选区，Parry Sound—Muskoka。该选区目前尚未宣布补选，因为正如我们几分钟前指出的，呃，他目前仍在下议院。他即将辞职，然后总理有几个月的时间来宣布补选。他有多长时间？他必须在六个月内宣布补选，大概类似这样的时间期限。

英文原文 >> that will split the conservative vote in Brford Brand South. And you know what happens when you split one party's vote, you allow another party potentially to come up the middle. And in this case, the liberal candidate ran last time, she's running again this time. She's the head of the Chamber of Commerce. Um, you know, it even though the Conservatives won the writing by 10 points last time, it's not inconceivable she could win this time. So, we'll keep an eye on that. That writing's been conservative since 2008.

The other one to watch is Scott Herson's writing, Perry Sound Muscoa. It has not been called yet because as we suggested a few minutes ago, uh, he's still in the House of Commons. He's about to step down and then the prime minister has x number of months in which to call. What's he got? six months that he within which he has to call the bi-election something like that.

他刚刚被 Doug Ford 政府任命为 Muskoka 地区的区主席。那个席位自1957年以来就一直是保守党的。呃，除了在保守党某种程度上分裂的那些年，当时有进步保守党、改革党、加拿大联盟，并且有多个保守党派竞选，那时候自由党拿下了它。但基本上它是现存最安全的保守党席位之一。

英文原文 >> He was just appointed the chair of Mskoka district by Doug Ford's government. That seat has been Tory since 1957. Uh with exceptions during the years when the Conservative Party sort of blew up and was progressive conservative reform Canadian Alliance and there were multiple Conservative parties running then the Liberals had it. But it's essentially one of the safest conservative seats out there.

有趣的是，前任国会议员可能正在试图成为未来的国会议员。我指的是 Tony Clement 在相当长的一段时间内都是那里的国会议员，无论是在……嗯，他……

英文原文 >> And what is interesting is the former MP may be trying to become the future MP. And by that I mean Tony Clement was the MP there uh for quite a chunk both um well he

曾经当过一段时间的省议员（Queen's Park MPP），后来离开那里进入了联邦政界。过去的……哦，我不知道，大约五年或六年里，他一直在私营领域工作。而且他……显然已经做过一些民意调查了——我不是说这是他自己做的，但确实进行过一些民意调查，他的名字知名度最高，也是保守党保住这个选区的最佳机会。再说一次，这个席位如果他们没选对候选人——我不知道托尼·克莱门特（Tony Clement）是不是合适的人选——但如果他们没选对候选人，自由党是有可能赢得这个席位的。

英文原文 was a Queens Park MPPP for a while and then left there and went federal and he's been in the private sector for the last oh I don't know five years or so six years and he has apparently there has been some polling done I don't say he's done it but there's been some polling done and his name is the highest name recognition and the best shot the conservatives have to retain the writing and again this is a seat where if they don't get the right candidate, and I don't know if Tony Clement's the right candidate or not, but if they don't get the right candidate, the Liberals could win this seat.

补选对保守党党魁地位的考验

我对这一切的看法是，如果保守党连布兰特福德-布兰特南（Brantford-Brant South）或帕里湾-马斯科卡（Parry Sound-Muskoka）都守不住，皮埃尔·波利耶夫（Pierre Poilievre）将极难坚称自己是带领该党迎战下届大选对抗马克·卡尼（Mark Carney）的最佳人选。所以，这就是即将到来的这些补选的关键所在。

英文原文 >> My theory on all this is if the Conservatives can't hold Brford Brandt South or Perry Sound Muskoka, it will be incredibly difficult for Pierre Polyv to maintain that he is the best person to lead that party into the next election against Mark Carney. So that's what's at stake in these in these bi-elections coming up.

是的。没错，我认为确实如此。我认为，基于你刚才列出的所有原因，这些都是非常值得关注的补选。而且你知道，在过去的……对于波利耶夫来说，这真是一场引人注目的命运逆转。

英文原文 >> Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think uh the for all the reasons you've just laid out, these are bi-elections uh worth watching and you know it's it's just such a remarkable uh reversal of fortune for PV in the last

感谢唐纳德·特朗普。

英文原文 >> Thank you Donald Trump.

是啊。嗯，确实。不过，即便利益于……你知道，即便唐纳德·特朗普带来的直接影响已经……我不知道用“减退”这个词是否完全准确，但感觉确实没有去年一月那时那么尖锐了，对吧？但我认为显而易见的是，波利耶夫在联邦层面上确实很难去证明建立一个强有力的保守党反对派的主张。而且你知道，如果这两个席位真的被翻盘，我由衷地认为……我是说，你知道，马克·卡尼迄今为止在政治生涯中一直顺风顺水。但是，关于“保罗可能会受到党内挑战”之类的议论，近几个月似乎有所平息，但如果你知道，如果他输掉了这两个席位，我完全可以想象那场讨论会卷土重来。

英文原文 >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Um but uh even you know even as the immediate um uh impact of Donald Trump uh has I don't know if faded is the right word exactly but it it doesn't feel quite as acute as it did you know January before last right um but I think it's just visible that PV has really uh struggled uh federally to um make the case for uh a strong conservative opposition and uh you know If these two seats uh do in fact get flipped, I I genuinely think uh I mean, you know, Mark Carney has had a a charmed political existence so far. Uh but, you know, and and some of the the chatter about like, oh, you know, Paul could be challenged from inside his party or whatever. Some of that seemed to die down in recent months, but you know, if he loses these two seats, I could imagine easily imagine that discussion roaring back to life.

是的，波利耶夫先生在一个方面一直很幸运，那就是没有明显的“保罗·马丁”像当年马丁先生紧咬让·克雷蒂安（Jean Chrétien）那样紧追不舍。党内并没有明显聚集在另一个领导层替代人选周围的势头。所以目前看来他相当安全。但如果他在接下来几个月即将到来的七场补选中没有取得好成绩，这些情况很有可能会改变。

英文原文 >> Yeah, Mr. Paul has been fortunate in one respect and that is that there is no obvious Paul Martin nipping at his heels in the way that Mr. Martin did against Shan Cretche. There's no obvious coalescing around an alternative to his leadership. So at the moment he seems pretty safe if he does not get some good results in the seven bi-elections which will be coming up over the next several months. Those circumstances could very well change.

事实上更进一步说，我的意思是不仅……

英文原文 go one further in fact and say I mean not only

不仅没有明显的继任者紧随其后，而且如果你看看保守党的后备力量——因为目前党团中最显要的保守党人，很多都是波利耶夫挑选出来的，尤其是针对……你知道，很多是对新冠相关事态的反应，而且他们认为在2023年和2024年对此感到愤怒的所有人都会继续愤怒下去。党团中目前没有多少人如果被推举为党魁，能够解决波利耶夫在更广泛选民群体中所引发的问题。这些人……很多都是非常愤怒的人，而在我看来，目前选民并不明确想要一个对马克·卡尼愤怒的人。

英文原文 >> is there no obvious uh successor nipping at his heels. Uh but if you look at the the the conservative bench, uh because so many of the the most prominent conservatives in in that caucus right now are people that palev picked uh you know particularly uh in a lot of the reaction to you know co stuff you know and and you know they thought that uh everybody who was angry about this stuff in 2023 and 2024 was going to stay angry. um you know there are not a lot of people in that caucus right now who were they to be made leader would solve the problems that Paul have poses for the the wider electorate. Uh you know these are you know a lot of uh yeah a lot of very uh angry people and it's not clear to me that voters at the moment want somebody who is angry at Mark Carney.

节目收尾与致谢

政治难道不是很有趣吗？

英文原文 >> Ain't politics interesting.

从来不会无聊太久。没错。你说得对。好了。就到这里。我想我们录完了。你要报一下邮箱地址，然后我们就收工吗？

英文原文 >> It never stays boring for long. That's right. You got that right. Okay. That's it. Uh, I think we're done. You want to give the mailing address and we'll get out of here.

好的。如果您想就节目中看到的任何内容给我们发邮件，或者对您当地的区域主席有什么意见，请发邮件至 onpolitics@tvo.org。

英文原文 >> Uh, right. If you want to email us about anything you see on the show, uh, or if you've got some complaint about your regional chair, email us at onpolitics@tvo.org.

以上就是2026年11月13日星期五的《ONPolitics》播客。

英文原文 >> And that is the OnP podcast for this Friday, November 13th, 2026.

您可以在任何获取播客的平台上关注我们的节目，以便在新节目上线时收到通知。您也可以在 TVO 的 YouTube 频道上观看播客的视频版本。如果您有任何反馈，无论是好是坏还是中立，我们都随时乐意倾听。请写信至 onpolitics@tvo.org，并请注明您的姓名以及您来自哪里。本期节目由马修·奥马拉（Matthew O'Mara）制作，科林·基什（Colin Kish）剪辑。

英文原文 >> You can follow our show wherever you get your podcast so that you get notified each time a new episode is available. And you can see the video version of the podcast on the TV YouTube channel. Any feedback you have, we're always happy to hear it, good, bad, or indifferent. Write us an email at onpolitics@tvo.org and please include your first and last name and where you're from. This week's episode was produced by Matthew Omera, editing by Colin Kish.

制作支持来自乔纳森·哈威尔（Jonathan Hallwell）以及 TVO 数字媒体服务团队。

英文原文 >> Production support from Jonathan Hawell and TVO's digital media services team.

劳丽·F（Laurie F）是数字执行制片人。凡妮莎·凯斯（Vanessa Case）是媒体副总裁。

英文原文 >> Lori F is the executive producer of digital. Vanessa Case is vice president media.

这里要做两次特别致谢。我们想向演播室团队致谢，他们总是值得我们的尊重与赞誉，正是他们让节目的视频部分呈现得如此出色。我还想提一下，谢尔顿·奥斯曼（Sheldon Osman）通常是这档节目的导播，但这周谢尔顿……我想他正在其他地方做现场勘查。因此，今天由雷·厄普顿（Ray Upton）在这里临时顶替担任导播。雷，感谢你在最后一刻救场。不得不说，我第一次和雷共事，天哪，如果不是30年前的话，也差不多有近30年了。他过去常常在《Studio 2》和《The Agenda》做导播工作，职业生涯非常出色。雷，也感谢你坐在导播椅上带领我们完成今天这个小节目。大家，下周五见，拜拜。

英文原文 >> Want to do two shoutouts here. We want to give a shout out to the studio crew who always deserve our respect and props for making the video part of this thing look so good. And I want to mention Sheldon Osman is normally the director of this show, but this week Sheldon's uh I think he's doing a site survey somewhere else. And as a result, we got Ray Upton who's been in here filling in today directing. Ray, thanks for pinch hitting at the last minute. And we got to say, I think I first worked with Ray, gosh, if it wasn't 30 years ago. It was almost 30 years ago. He used to direct, he used to do some directing on Studio 2 and on the Agenda and has had a great career. And Ray, thanks for sitting in the chair and getting us through this little show today as well. And until next Friday everybody, bye-bye.

拜拜。

英文原文 >> Byebye.
文中提及的人物和组织

人物: John Michael McGrath, John Fraser, Pierre Poilievre, Mark Carney

公司/组织: Stellantis, Honda, United Farmers of Ontario (UFO), Ontario Liberals, Conservative Party of Canada