Alison Roman: I think it would be my dream to always use the highest quality ingredients. I'd love to use like old ugly shallots that nobody wants and the bad tomatoes and like make something beautiful from waste. And and that's my aspiration. And and that business model let down a very, very expensive path and I think is achievable at massive scale. But we're just not there yet.

Joe Weisenthal: Wait. Say more about that.

Alison Roman: Basically that is sort of the the issue with CPG in general. And if you want to make a small mom and pop like locally sourced, like beautifully made, responsibly pay your workers excellent wages and it's going to be like a $38 jar of tomato sauce. And it's going to be a very limited market of people that are willing to pay for that. And, you know, I look at my local grocery store and I the first thing I do is I go to the tomato sauce aisle. I'm just like, got to know what's going on over there. But you see Rao’s and Carbone on the same eye level and additional, merchandizing behind you. And they are both on sale for $8.99, and that's a 32 ounce jar. Our jars are 16oz. And you know, $12.99 or $12 retail.

Joe Weisenthal: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway: And I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal: So, Tracy, we're recording this on February 4th, and, a lot of tech stocks have been getting clobbered lately. But you know what's doing really well?

Tracy Alloway: What companies?

Joe Weisenthal: Companies that make, consumer staples, all of like, the core staples that you'd see in your pantry, etc., like your Pepsi Cola and all this stuff. Companies that might make, like, jarred sauces and stuff, people are returning to sort of, the old style basics that people buy in the stock market. Who would have thought that food is land?

Alison Roman: Amazing food persist.

Joe Weisenthal: Nobody's serious. You know, it's like the only place to hide right now on the market. Like, I look at my screen and everything is bright red, and the only thing that people feel comfortable betting on right now seems to basically be food. Pasta sauce and the stuff that, that people have eaten for all time and probably will be eating for as long as there are people on earth, right?

Tracy Alloway: And this always. So I find this business really interesting because, you know, I joke that food is Lindy in many ways, but, you know, like food is right. Food is essential, but it's also constantly changing.

Alison Roman: Yeah, it feels like.

Tracy Alloway: And so I'm always very curious about how consumer brands actually make pricing decisions, branding decisions, especially because it also feels like an area that's very crowded. You know, you walk into the supermarket and there's like 20 different brands of, I don't know, flour or something.

Joe Weisenthal: No, totally. You know, one of the things, you know, we've done various CPG episodes over the years and we did some episodes about like Celsius energy drink and stuff. And one of the themes that we sort of maybe I hadn't appreciated prior is like that competition for shelf space. Yeah, the distribution aspect, getting on the shelf, getting a spot in the truck that delivers the beverages to the grocery store or to the bodega or whatever, like so much of the game is. Yes, the brand. Yes, the product. And then just the sort of logistical aspects of it. And I think like that, that sort of we don't talk about it enough, but as a theme, I love, like learning about this space, how the CPG business works, because it just to your point, especially with regards to pricing and so forth, it's so illuminating about how the whole economy works.

Tracy Alloway: Is that a word?

Joe Weisenthal: Illuminating? Yeah.

Tracy Alloway: Very good.

Joe Weisenthal: Well, we do have the perfect guest. I'm very excited to say we do have the perfect guest today, someone who is, in the tomato sauce business but really known for, so much more. One of the, I would say, most famous people in the food world these days, we are going to be speaking with Alison Roman. She's a cook and the author. She has a grocery store called First Bloom that, I missed when they had a pop up Manhattan location. I missed it. Hopefully, you know, that'll get reopened at some point. And tomato sauce business called A Very Good Tomato Sauce. So Alison, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.

Alison Roman: Oh, thank you for having me. This is a pleasure. Where to begin? You are this, a genuine celebrity of the food world. People are addicted, and they love your recipes. I just at home two nights ago, my wife made your, I think it was like a broccoli cheddar soup that you have a recipe for.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, that's a deep dish.

Alison Roman: That is is a deep cut. That's cool.

Joe Weisenthal: I've had your famous, chickpeas do.

Alison Roman: Yeah, that went viral. We've had multiple recipes go viral. But how did you decide to get into why a tomato sauce.

Alison Roman: I think I well, I got my start working in professional kitchens and I worked in editorial, and then I sort of went off on my own writing books and doing miscellaneous things and my whole career as sort of a recipe writer, cookbook author has been teaching you how to cook and being like, why would you buy anything when you can make it yourself? You know, as the person who their pantry is lined with like ingredients rather than, you know, things. So it's funny that I that got into the tomato sauce business because I've written recipes for tomato sauce, and I'm very proud of mine, and I think it's delicious and easy to make and anyone can do it. And then the older I got and I married a man who does not cook. I had a baby. The baby does not cook yet either, unfortunately. I needed to eat more. I needed someone to cook for me and it just became sort of this question I had of like, why am I so allergic to the tomato sauce is on the market? Why am I not embracing of the things that are currently available? And I realized it's because I'm, well, a very picky, b probably very snobby. See, I just was sort of, you know, like, I do want to make it myself. I do want to sort of control here. So I made it myself. And when I had opened the grocery store First Bloom, I decided to start including it as like a line of things that we would keep in the freezer a chicken broth, beans, tomato sauce, things that we would make in the store to sell to people at the market. And very soon the demand exceeded supply. And I, you know, for all the things that I do, I did not want to be full time making tomato sauce. There was just I didn't have the equipment, I didn't have the time. And so I was approached by somebody who is in the tomato sauce making business. And she was like, why don't you just outsource it and have somebody make your recipe? And I was like, well, how is that going to work? You know, like how? But won't people know the difference and how could it possibly scale? And through a lot of trial and error, I figured out we can scale it.

Joe Weisenthal: I definitely want to ask about scaling up, but before we do, were you daunted at all by doing tomato sauce specifically because this seems to be an area where there is a lot of competition, especially between I can think of two like big players, which will be Rao’s and Carbone. Right? What are those cheap stuff? And I guess those aren't the competitors. Yeah, I bought the Carbone things once, which probably maybe says something about it. But anyway, how do you differentiate your product from, you know, those names with very, very strong branding and customer recognition?

Alison Roman: Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing because sometimes, often people start a business saying what doesn't exist. There's a hole in the market, I'm going to fill it. And obviously tomato sauce. There are many brands constantly fighting for sale prices and shelf space. But there wasn't a tomato sauce like mine and there wasn't. I find that most tomato sauce is on the market, especially the popular ones. Rose Carbone, etc. are more marinara and style. They are, you know, more uniform in texture. They are sweeter. They tend to have oregano. There's just like a specific vibe that they're going for. And I think to me, sort of modeled after the like old school Progresso, which is what my mom growing up. And that's what I ate. And I think that that was sort of the gold standard. And people kind of went down that path. And it's interesting because we talk about Carbone as like the, you know, top two, they're not very old.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah.

Alison Roman: And so we in our consciousness like, oh, well that's the top two. Well they've only been the top two for as long as they've been around which somebody can fact check. But I believe it's only a few years.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah I think that's right. Yeah.

Alison Roman: So it's not like this legacy brand that I'm competing with. It's just another company with name recognition, a lot of financial backing and strong branding. And I also noticed that all the tomato sauces were sort of like chef focused and, and male dominated energy. It was sort of like a chef, a guy, a bro, a person's name. That was a guy. And I don't know, I just was sort of like, I want to do something totally different, even if it's tomato sauce, I don't think they're all created equal. And so with everything I do, I genuinely try to ask myself, does this already exist? And if not, then I want to make it.

Joe Weisenthal: I have some thoughts about Chef Bro energy, but I'm going to save them for after the plug.

Alison Roman: I can't wait.

Joe Weisenthal: No, I'm going. To save them for after the episode.

Joe Weisenthal: Let's talk about I mean, I want to want to talk about the entire from your conception in your mind to, the end consumer, the whole supply chain. So I want to, like, really break it down and understand it. But let's start with, like, how do you scale up a recipe? Because quality control, you have some recipe that you make in your kitchen and you really like it, etc. but then there's, you know, but then making it in large batches, totally different game and then you're not there to supervise it all the time. Talk to us a little bit about that process, how just how that even works, such that a recipe that you make at home can be done by someone else at a different facility in volume, and it's still the same recipe.

Alison Roman: Yeah, I think that you have to consider, you know, there's a lot of knowledge that goes into it of like your knowledge of cooking and how ingredients, you know, they're not a one for one. You can't just multiply it by ten and be like, this is going to be the same thing. Also, the equipment is different. How they're doing things are different. We have three flavors. We have a garlicky tomato, which is sort of your classic, a spicy fennel, which is spicy and has fennel as advertised. And then a caramelized shallot anchovy, which is modeled after the shallot pasta, which. Is, which went viral during the I think we all at one point probably. Made it if I, if I have no fans, the shallot pasta will still have a million like it is. It is more famous than I am for sure. And that was the trickiest one to nail because the caramelizing of the shallots, the addition of anchovies. Yeah. I ended up having to go back three times after we had jarred the first batch and adjust the recipe, which I didn't have to do at the end with the others. But because shallots, when you caramelize at a large scale, they tend to get soft and jammy and very sweet, which increases the sweetness perception of the final product. We ended up switching to a different method of cooking the shallots. I ended to reducing the amount entirely, cooking them further.

Alison Roman: Like it? The whole thing had to change as soon as we started getting to the batch size. And each co-packer is different. So I think, you know an issue. We can we'll get there. But if you talk about scaling, it's each Co-packer is going to handle things differently. And right now we're with a pretty small co-packer, which I like because I can visit them in from my apartment. They're in Industry City, Brooklyn, and I go there and I can taste the batches. I can say, okay, we multiplied the chili flake in this recipe and now it's way too spicy. So we're actually going to cut it by half, which is it seems to stand the reason that that would be not nearly as spicy, but because of the way the ingredients behave. It is, you know, so stuff like that where you're sort of in the lab, as it were, tweaking as it goes. And I think that the more I explore the CPG world, that is the biggest challenge of you can't just send a recipe in and hope for the best. Like, you really have to be tweaking and adjusting at scale.

Joe Weisenthal: How big is the tomato sauce making operation right now? Like in people?

Alison Roman: It's two.

Joe Weisenthal: People. Two people?

Alison Roman: Yeah. So it's like it's it's relatively small. Yes. They have big massive kettles. And I think that also when you think of like, why tomato sauce. Like I just, I kind of knew that getting there would maybe be the path of least resistance and, and that I'm not inventing something from scratch or not, you know, requiring equipment that nobody has. Like these are kettles that you can make many different things in. And so coat packers are a bit easier to find. These particular co packers specialize in tomato sauce. And most that I've encountered do. And that's like what they do. And so they are you know well informed.

Tracy Alloway: I'm sorry I might ask just a lot of like really remedial.

Alison Roman: I love it.

Tracy Alloway: So let's go deep the the kitchen, the two person kitchen where they're making that is a separate facility than the Co-packer. Or is it the same entity.

Alison Roman: It's the same entity.

Tracy Alloway: Okay. So we have we have the the place the warehouse where the tomato sauce gets made. They get the jars and they sterilize the jars. They make the sauce, they batch the sauce, they put them in the boxes. The boxes then get shipped to a third party logistics warehouse, which is actually not far from where the tomato sauce is made. So we cut down on shipping a bit. And that is where the tomato sauce comes from when you order it online, because right now we are we do have it in store up in the upstate grocery store. But, for a few reasons, which we can also get into, we are just DDC.

Joe Weisenthal: Got it. Yeah.

Tracy Alloway: And then again, maybe very obvious question when it comes to, you know, maybe at some point you grow and it'll be ten people, etc. in the food industry, are there chefs whose job is more or less to specialize in cooking at scale, that basically it's like, okay, someone has an idea for a tomato sauce like you, you know, you're not you can't be there every day. Other people who, like, have professionalized the art of scaling up a. Recipe for volume.

Alison Roman: I mean, I've never heard of that job specifically, but I mean, the guy, who makes the tomato sauce for us like that is his primary. I mean, he was a chef, you know, did a lot of catering, a private chef, etc.. And then I think to understand how to make things at scale you do have, it's a lot of trial and error. You have to, like, understand it from a different perspective. But even working in restaurants, I experience this because you take recipes built for a home cook, especially, say, baking. You're going to make biscuits for a restaurant. You take a recipe that you like from somebody's cookbook. What? I don't know. And you're like, okay, well, now I have to make these biscuits for I have to make 200 of them a day. I'm not making 60.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, and you cannot just multiply that recipe ever.

Alison Roman: And so I had a bit of experience in, in the baking world working at scale because you're never making 16 of something in a pastry kitchen. You're making 200. And so you kind of understand and and also conversely, working at the bottom of Test Kitchen, when I first started working there, we were doing a lot more chef driven recipes. And when you work in a professional kitchen, you're making sauce. You're making 16 quarts of sauce, you're not making two cups of sauce. So the sort of reverse engineering that understanding that it's the same thing. The ingredients ebb and flow even if you're decreasing. So it's just kind of having that knowledge ahead of time. But I think that's how those people find themselves as a co-packer. And as we look into other products to make, it's like, okay, well, these guys specialize in baked goods. These guys specialize in granola. These guys, you know, and they're that's what they do. So they they know.

Tracy Alloway: How did you go about finding suppliers because, you know, I imagine you have some connection with your grocery store to, you know, farmers maybe. But if you're doing it at scale or a larger scale than previously, how do you actually find someone who's going to provide you with a steady supply of tomatoes or a steady supply of shallots and anchovies, I guess?

Alison Roman: Yeah, we use canned tomatoes. In the summer we will do limited edition, quantities of things like, you know, bruised tomatoes, SunGold tomatoes, like more in-season fresh stuff. But because tomatoes are so seasonal and I also believe the best tomato sauce does come from canned tomatoes, that is part isn't an issue, but it really is. I had, worked with this woman, Isabel, who had more experience in CPG, and we sort of figured it out together with, my chief of staff, Nani. And it was kind of the three of us looking at numbers and saying, like, who's located where? What is the shipping going to cost? What tomatoes are they using, what tomatoes can they get? What is their capacity like? How how quickly can we grow here? And so all of those things come into factor because honestly, the type of shallots you're using at that scale doesn't really matter.

Alison Roman: I think it would be my dream to always use the highest quality ingredients. I'd love to use like old ugly shallots that nobody wants and the bad tomatoes and like make something beautiful from waste. And and that's my aspiration. And and that business model let down a very, very expensive path and I think is achievable at massive scale. But we're just not there yet.

Joe Weisenthal: Wait. Say more about that.

Alison Roman: Basically, that is sort of the the issue with CPG in general. And if you want to make a small mom and pop, like locally sourced like beautifully made, responsibly pay your workers excellent wages and it's going to be like a $38 jar of tomato sauce. And it's going to be a very limited market of people that are willing to pay for that. And, you know, I look at my local grocery store and I the first thing I do is I go to the tomato sauce aisle. I'm just like, got to know what's going on over there. But you see Rao’s and Carbone on the same eye level and additional, merchandizing behind you. And they are both on sale for $8.99, and that's a 32 ounce jar. Our jars are 16oz and, you know, $12.99 or $12 retail.

Joe Weisenthal: Joe, I'm going to betray my elder millennial status, but I'm thinking of that friends episode where Monica starts making jam and selling it, and then she realizes that, like, in order to break even, it has to be $17 per jar, which was a lot back then.

Alison Roman: There was a lot.

Joe Weisenthal: Of people who else made jam?

Alison Roman: And me, I don't know.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah. Tell us about your jam.

Alison Roman: I mean, that was a million years ago when I first moved to New York, and I was working at Milk Bar at the time and used their commissary kitchen to sort of decide I was going to make jam and sell it at the Williamsburg Smorgasburg. And yeah, when it first launched and say, oh yeah, baby. And, you know, handwriting each label like getting beautiful jars, which cost $4 a piece, like the economics were so poor I didn't care. I wanted to do it anyway. And as long as we could make more money to buy more jars and then make more jam, obviously that was not sustainable. It didn't last for very long, maybe a year and a half. But same concept where, okay, in order to get this actually done and to actually turn a profit, you're like, okay, well that's why people go for the jugular immediately and seek out, you know, investment and say, we need to be on target to launch. Let's do a business scale.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah. One of my favorite books I've read, is by is the autobiography of the Nike founder, Phil Knight. Shoe Dog shoe dog. And he talks a lot about, you know, they started small with sneakers. And then there was, you know, this sort of jump where it's like he had the opportunity to get a lot bigger banks didn't really want to give him loans because it seemed dicey. It wasn't like a VC style business, but he clearly needed capital to sort of take it to the next level, like bigger factories, etc.. Talk to us a little bit about like financial scaling and the risks that involved with like, okay, one day you don't want it to just be two people in a kitchen. You had to be 20 people or 200 people in the kitchen. Well, that requires a lot of upfront costs and new warehouses. Maybe talk to us about how you're thinking about that or what you've seen on the landscape in terms of your options.

Alison Roman: Yeah, I mean, it seems like the what you're fed in terms of like the media coverage of brands and you're like, oh, this brand has $3 million out the gate and this brand has six months. And that doesn't mean that brands can succeed. That doesn't mean that that brand is.

Joe Weisenthal: Going in the hole because they have to pay that back. Yes. Multiple interest before the founder sees a penny of.

Alison Roman: Exactly. And it also means that there's a lot of pressure to increase SKUs and marketing and it's a, to me, a very overwhelming landscape that is not rooted in authenticity or something being good. And that, to me is always going to be the most important thing that I do. I also want to do it intelligently and make sure that it's not like a financial crazy firestorm. But I think that right now, literally today, after this, I'm going to a few meetings, but I am right in the thick of it, of figuring out that the answer to that question of like, who do I hire? How do I hire them? At what level? Who is going to actually help me? Who basically my desire is to hire somebody, two people, three people who are excellent at what they do. I am not a business person. I am a tomato sauce person. I make tomato sauce and I make really good tomato sauce. I don't know how to do these other things. And what I do know is that I'm not trying to scale up at such an intense rate that it sacrifices the quality or the integrity, or puts me in a position to grow the business faster than I want to. And, you know, I think it's interesting because a lot of times people start businesses, especially in the food CPG world, where the immediate thought is before they've even made the product. How do I sell it? Like how do I what's my exit? Okay. In six years, we could, you know, it's like what happened to just making a great product that people are really into. And I think I have the luxury of having 42 other jobs. And so, you know, I'm a writer, I do video, I make cookbooks, and I think that knowing that this isn't my primary, you know, the one thing that I'm betting on, but I do think that there's a sort of credibility that's been lost in developing products and I think that people are going to start to want that. And I think that they're going to be like, well, why would I buy this person's tomatoes? I was like, because I'm seeing it everywhere, or this one because I trust it, that it comes from a good place.

Joe Weisenthal: What kind of. Lenders or investors do you actually talk to for this sort of thing? Is it like VC?

Alison Roman: I don't yet, but that would ostensibly be it. I think that for me personally, I've self-funded every project I've ever done and I've kind of taken this to its maximum, in that I'm not that in the red and it will I will be whole probably by the end of the year, which is great. It's more that I want to be sure if I'm going to ask for money. It's I want to ask for money from people that understand me and are not expecting me to be someone else, or model my business off after those other ones that they see as being successful. And I say that today. Ask me next year and I might be in a different position, but I think it's sort of, you know, a friends and family around style. Or one main investor who sort of sees me, sees the goal and is like, I want to be the lead and I want to be sort of the primary.

Tracy Alloway: Do you have to bring like actual jars of the sauce when you meet with investors? I know you haven't done it yet, but I'm really curious if you have a food company, is that a requirement or are people just looking at the numbers and the branding and the distribution network?

Alison Roman: I think it could hurt. I think that if you are a lesser known quantity, that's probably a must. I would I mean, I'd want you to know what I'm selling you and why you should invest in it. It's giving Shark Tank. Yeah. But I think for me, I've been very fortunate that I've already sort of been approached by people that are like, I like what you do. I like everything that you do. Everything you do works. And like, I have no reason to believe this would be any different, even though I do know, given the saturation of the market and how crowded it is, it is sort of, oh. Why would you enter into what was effectively the most crowded, you know, market? But again, I see my contribution as being unique.

Tracy Alloway: This might be sort of a sensitive question. You know, there is a I think you have cult status within, certain among some people. We seem to be in an age where people with a certain level of cult status, they have these fans who like, really just like they want to buy something from you. They're excited to give that the opportunity to do business with you. Yes, Taylor Swift's fans want her to make five different color vinyl versions of each album because they're really excited about.

Alison Roman: And they'll buy each one.

Tracy Alloway: Yeah, and Donald Trump's fans really, like, want him to like, you know, make a vodka brand and whatever because they're excited about that. Buying Trump vodka I know.

Tracy Alloway: Do you feel that like do you feel that you have like a base that is enthusiastic about the prospect of essentially supporting you and like being part of your, you know, growing your world?

Alison Roman: Yeah. I think that I am very fortunate to have been in this industry for as long as I have. And I think that with that comes a reputation and trust. And you cannot buy that trust and you cannot force it to happen over a short period of time. And I think that it is familiarity. But above all, people are like, I know this works, or I know when she recommends something, it is good. And so it stands to reason if I'm going to make if I'm going to put my name behind something and like put my own money behind, starting a company like this isn't a money grab, you know, it's not the most lucrative thing I do. It's a definite loss leader. But it's sort of for now anyway. But I think that there is a hopeful. I would imagine people would think if she's going to do this, I know it's going to be good. And I get a lot of feedback on the sales people saying, I've never bought sauce in my life, but I am curious. Or it's people that were like me ten years ago cooking from dining in, cooking from, you know, Nothing Fancy. Well, eight years ago. But you know, and thought to themselves, well, I'll never make to I'll never buy tomato sauce because I make my own. And now their lives have changed and their perspectives are different. And they're like, you know what? I might buy a tomato sauce.

Joe Weisenthal: How are you thinking about distribution? Because as Joe mentioned in the intro, one thing we've learned from conversations with different food and drinks and snack companies is like, you kind of live and die by the shelf space that you get.

Alison Roman: Oh yeah, and my level maybe. Okay.

Joe Weisenthal: And then also like, which comes first, is it a distribution agreement or the actual scaling of the operation?

Alison Roman: This is exactly where I'm at right now. I'm like in the thick of these conversations of trying to figure that out, because do I find a new co-packer that can meet the needs of potentially being and Whole Foods? Well, then, without a Whole Foods contract, I'm sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars of product. And where does that product go then? I'm paying for storage for that product. So how do you move that without having that deal in place? You also, I would imagine Whole Foods is not going to give you something unless they know for certain that you can produce it. And I'm assuming they want some proof of concept. But right now I'm, I'm it's very chicken or the egg and I'm sort of like, okay, what has to happen first? Is it the the person who's going to get me that relationship with Whole Foods? Is it the co-packer that I know can fulfill and execute at the level that I want? And, you know, these questions are being asked and answered very quickly. And, you know, next, if we had done this meeting next week, I probably would have a better answer for you to come back into it.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, I guess. We just do a quick follow.

Alison Roman: Well, it's so funny. I'm sure anyone listening to this that does know a lot about CPGs is like, this woman has no idea, but I believe that's part of my charm and I kind of jump into everything that I do like really curious and excited. And I actually think that there's a lot of benefit to not knowing, because I think getting hung up on how things are done and what is the norm kind of limits you.

Joe Weisenthal: Are. You just like surrounded right now by like food industry execs that are promising they can take your business to the next level. Maybe they did a stint at Whole Foods or something like that and like, hire me. We can.

Alison Roman: There's a few more. There's a few. There's yes, the inbox is very busy right now. And I will say primarily women, which is really encouraging. And yeah, I think there's always somebody that's like, I can help you. And then some people that are like, I want skin in the game. Some people are like, I want to help you find the money so that I can have skin in the game in the future. And I think that these companies become so hot and then often plateau or crash or people don't care anymore. Protein's no longer a thing. Nobody wants to drink this type of thing. But to me, I am such a legacy brand person and I believe so firmly in well-made products that are built to last that never go out of style. And to me, this is that. And I'd rather be successful over a really long term than like a flash in the pan or like hot right now. And then note next year nobody cares and then I'm f******.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah. Tomato sauce is definitely windy, I think.

Alison Roman: Yeah. Do you know, I Lindy, I don't know.

Joe Weisenthal: Oh, I've heard it not four times. No, but I, it's sort of a non joke. Yeah. It just means it means it's lasted a long time. And therefore one can infer that it will last a long time.

Alison Roman: Okay. I love it. I'm going to adopt that word and my patches.

Joe Weisenthal: It's it's a good word to use.

Joe Weisenthal: What's been the most challenging aspect of building this business? Because, you know, you're talking about a bunch of different things all at once. There's the financing, there's distribution, there's logistics, there's actually making the product, branding, all of that.

Alison Roman: I will say I sort of did everything that was easiest first, which was developing the recipe, figuring out the label, like the creative, fun stuff that I feel qualified to to weigh in on an execute. And now we're at the hard part where it's like, okay, we've made the sauce, we've sold it. People love it.

Joe Weisenthal: Okay, that feels like the hard part for a lot of people.

Alison Roman: For me, that was the easy part. And now, you know, I was saying to someone the other day, like, what I'm really craving as an adult in the room, and I need a boss in this venture, you know what I mean? Like, I I'm so okay, I have the sauce. It's it looks great. It tastes great. People want it. How do what? What now? And I need somebody who knows what they're doing to come into the room and say, here are the here's the order of operations, here's how much that's going to cost. Here's who's going to do that. Like when you're starting a business like this, there's nobody to tell you. And so you do sort of feel a little vulnerable to people that are like, I can help you. Yeah. And so it becomes sort of this personality vetting and, and who's who do we vibe with? Who do you think understands you that it doesn't just see dollar signs and it's again built on trust and like who's going to like really be in this with you to best advise what's best for you, the business owner and also the product, and not just sort of treat you like a mouthpiece for a thing that can make the money.

Joe Weisenthal: You know, you mentioned like you have the luxury of you're not betting your life on this brand. You have you have your thriving media empire, etc.. And so you're in the position to self-fund and so forth. It occurs to me like, you know, again, journalism is in such a difficult time, but like, you know, thinking back ten years ago, like all these consumer brands trying to build out a media side, we're like, oh, we're going to hire the editor in chief of Gillette, you know, because we want to like, build a whole series of blogs that are implicitly about razors. And so people can't wait to read.

Alison Roman: Yeah.

Joe Weisenthal: This is like, right, because they think this is going to be the best marketing is we'll just buy the media branded. So it must be really nice to not like you already have that part solved implicitly. It seems so much easier to start with this media thing that everybody loves, but a lot of people love and then like add on to these, yeah, various products that can be sold on top of that.

Alison Roman: Yeah. And I would obviously never call myself a celebrity, but I think that's the appeal of the celebrity brand and why that is so appealing to people when they're like, you know, a pop star that launches a makeup brand and an actor who launches lingerie. It's like it's a built in excitement. It's built in by it, you know? And so I think for me, again, I take that very seriously, that responsibility very seriously. But I it is great to know that most of it seems like what the money goes towards, in addition to hiring is marketing. Because if you're just like a person that's like, no one knows who you are, you don't have any food background, but you're like, I'm going to start a insert blank here. You know, company that is food. Well, yeah. If you come from the tech world, if you come from the business world, you're already a leg up on me in a lot of ways. But I'm a leg up on you in a lot of ways. But one money unfortunately, trumps all. So I feel like always sort of at a disadvantage without that as my thing in the back pocket, because a lot of brands that begin, they begin from a guy in a vest and you know, and I don't have that.

Joe Weisenthal: Have you seen like I think there are some memes about it where or like jokes where it's like some parody. Some guys, you know, working at McKinsey. And I realized I had to quit my job and dedicate my life to making the ultimate tortilla.

Alison Roman: Yeah. There's like all these tracks, like, you see these on the label is like, we were working 9 to 5 jobs in New York City, and then we're like, why can't we just make some dried tomatoes?

Joe Weisenthal: Exactly.

Alison Roman: Like, why isn't there a cream cheese for me?

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah. You're like, yeah. I mean, if you have a dream, you know, and I think that that is very inspiring when you can have a job that makes you so much money and then you're like, wait, this is soulless. And actually I just want to, like, make granola. Sure. That's great.

Alison Roman: I, I think that for me, I've always sort of been the inverse where I've dedicated my life to cooking and food and like the whole act of it and knowing that those thing like no one gets into the restaurant business to make money. I started working in restaurants when I was 19, making 750 an hour, and I never once thought, how will I make more money? I just thought, wow, this is great. I'm so happy. I love cooking, and so to end up here and be like, okay, I can like put a small amount towards this, but we've sort of reached the end of that road, of the money that I was willing to bet on it, and it was sort of like I thought pretty low stakes. I was like, I believe in the product, I know it's going to sell. And I did, and it was great. And so now it's time to consider what's next. And how do you consider what is a middle class small business? Because it stands, it feels like it's only extreme farmer's market mom and pop, but nobody knows who you are except if you live in the town or $5 million debut at Target.

Tracy Alloway: I have a slightly random question, but since we were talking food media, I think this is actually come up on the podcast before. But like a long, long time ago, why do I have to read 3000 words of people's life story or like explaining what an onion is? Before I get to the recipe online?

Alison Roman: Well, originally the reason that I think that where those complaints originated from are is blog culture, which predates sort of recipe database like New York Times, cooking, etc. because basically, in order for those bloggers to get ad revenue, the person had to scroll a certain amount. They couldn't just go to the page and click because they wouldn't see the ad, so the ad revenue couldn't support them. That is, I think like 90s sort of reasoning for me as a person who writes those things, it's because I think people care or it makes you a better cook and I and it provides context and riches to the story of the recipe. That also said, I often separate the text from the recipe, so I write in such a way that often like for my newsletter, for example, there's many, many words about something. It could be a sweater or my baby, or a tomato sauce, and then you jump to the recipe, which has like maybe six sentences about like, why you need to do what I'm asking you to do so you don't skip it and mess up the recipe and then the recipe, but you can always jump to it. So that also said, I always felt very defensive of that complaint because I'm a writer and I part of what I do is writing. And I also think that's a huge part of my success because people are, like, emotionally invested in what I'm asking you to do and also selling you something. I'm like, okay, you might not want to make lentil soup, but I'm going to write something that is so compelling that you're going to be like, oh my God, I have to make this lentil soup and that as part of my job. And so I do respect that, though. And interestingly enough, it's one of my favorite things to do when I'm writing actual cookbooks, because you're limited to the page versus the internet. You could write forever.

Alison Roman: Most people don't have good editors or editors at all. I don't know an editor, and one thing that I learned while working in magazines is you have to ask yourself, who cares? And so if I find myself blabbing on about something, I think about that person being like, why do I care about this? And I have to justify it. And oftentimes I edit stuff out all the time, or I'm like, that's boring or stupid, or only I think that's funny or that's too niche or it doesn't need to be here. I'm very cognizant of the fact that if something is too long, people's eyes glaze over. They don't care. They are going to lose interest. So you really fight for every word. That's especially true in a cookbook because you have to keep it to a certain length, otherwise it doesn't get printed. And, you know, there's a lot that goes into that for me anyway. And I think each person that writes recipes or whatever in the food world will have a different answer. That's mine.

Joe Weisenthal: Joe. Technology has actually solved this problem for me because there's there's a really great app called Paprika. And you just like paste in the URL of a recipe, people's.

Alison Roman: I know people, I know that. You know, that that is like the utility user and like that. I'd rather you do that than like just go on AI to like be like, right, right. What you know, recipe with that?

Joe Weisenthal: Oh, I. Didn't even think about.

Alison Roman: I did, I just know.

Joe Weisenthal: Now you just put.

Alison Roman: That I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy Alloway: Really. How often do you cook?

Alison Roman: I cook like, all the time on the weekends. And I don't cook in New York because I have a tiny New York kitchen. I have a big kitchen in Connecticut where I can do, like, whatever I dream.

Tracy Alloway: Yeah. Do you find yourself reading cookbooks for pleasure ever?

Alison Roman: Yeah, sometimes I have an expansive collection. And I just ordered. What's that food book? It's like, How to Eat a Wolf or something. Have you ever heard of that?

Joe Weisenthal: No.

Alison Roman: Apparently it was written in World War two, and it's all about, like, I guess, how to eat frugally when there's, like, not so much. So when I'm looking forward to the. Rations.

Tracy Alloway: How to cook a wolf by MFK. How to cook.

Alison Roman: Yes.

Tracy Alloway: Yeah.

Alison Roman: Of course. Sorry, I thought it was more contemporary. Okay, so like I do, I do read some food stuff, but it's when I'm actually cooking, having to scroll is really difficult because like your hands are covered in like flour or sauce or whatever, and I just find it distracting.

Joe Weisenthal: You'll be pleased to know that on my website, there's a tab at the beginning that says jump to recipe, and you can always just click on it and skip all the text.

Tracy Alloway: I should have said, I have your book, by the way. The fancy one.

Alison Roman: Nothing fancy. Yeah.

Tracy Alloway: Speaking of AI and cooking etc. you know, like all media is fake. I'm perhaps even you, but like all media, is very anxious about the presence of AI for various reasons and people were and how they're going to navigate it. Like traditional food media. Like obviously you have an issue of a name. People really like reading your stuff. Like, how are you feeling about the what's the broader landscape look like these days, or what's interesting in the broader landscape?

Alison Roman: I think the broader landscape, and we're noticing this in TV and also in news that our culture, both in fashion, food, cultural criticism, politics, we're sort of going back to what we ran from. So it's like the streamers are bundling and you can watch all that. Oh, wait, that's cable, right? And then so now the newsletter people are sort of, gaining employees and learning how to bundle their situation and saying, well, I've deflected and now we're starting a co-op cooperative. I'm like, well, that's a magazine. And so it's so fascinating to me. And I think any of us that are old enough to have seen, you know, lived through the various cycles of media and, and everything is returning to itself. And, you know, I'm sure they'll disband again and it'll become more about the individual. And now it's, you know, coming back to magazines.

Joe Weisenthal: So, you know, the movement, the tomato sauce, maybe it's like a little bit of a, a difference between your old self. Or maybe you would have looked down on that when you think, okay, tomato sauce. Like, another very hot button thing in the news was a big viral New York Times article, a couple of days ago about people spending crazy amounts of money on DoorDash. And then people love to sneer at people for.

Alison Roman: Crazy, though, because some people just love no one. The world like some, like someone was spending seven. Hundred dollars on a in a week for him and has has been, I believe.

Joe Weisenthal: Right. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Wait, how much did you say?

Alison Roman: I think it was seven.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah.

Alison Roman: Yeah they were, it was, you know, it was a couple and like they spent.

Joe Weisenthal: Wait what were they buying. Do you remember like what were they get it.

Alison Roman: All I know is that if my husband and I order from our favorite restaurant, which is down the street, embarrassingly enough, sometimes we do pick up. But if we're getting it delivered, yeah, that can be upwards of 100 plus dollars. It is. Expensive. And so let's say you're ordering from a more expensive place and you're doing it seven nights a week. Yeah, $700 plus it really I could see how you got there. The thing that I think also set people off is the guy in the photo had these really nice copper pans.

Joe Weisenthal: I know. Stuff like that.

Alison Roman: So for him, thousands of dollars to check out your kitchen. But apparently he was.

Tracy Alloway: But would you ever, you know, ten years from now there's ever going to be an Ellison Ramen like Ghost Kitchen or.

Alison Roman: You know, that I've, I've been approached so many times for that. And I really.

Joe Weisenthal: Say more about. That. What's the pitch when they bring. It to.

Alison Roman: The pitch is people want high quality chef made food. You have a name? People would go crazy to have Alison Roman's pasta made by Allison.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, but I'm not actually making that for you or someone.

Alison Roman: Tomato sauce. But that I'm not claiming to. Okay, okay. And and I think that there is to me that that devalues what I actually do. And having tomato sauce and then making something with that tomato sauce feels very different to me. I also understand meeting people where they're at, and if they're not going to make tomato sauce from scratch, at least they're cooking something at home. Even if it's opening a jar and adding something to it and blah blah blah. That to me is not a far cry, but the the ghost kitchen, the delivery, the the de. It's to me very impersonal. It freaks me out. I, I don't care for it. I think it's like a weird licensing of your name in a way that feels really inauthentic to me.

Joe Weisenthal: You seen that, that thing wonder?

Alison Roman: Yes.

Joe Weisenthal: I find it. Really. There's one near. Me. I find it very creepy.

Tracy Alloway: What is it?

Joe Weisenthal: So it's like. It's a sort of. I think it's. I don't totally know the business, but I think it's basically trying to roll up the DoorDash and the restaurant at the same time, so that they have this big facility that can make 30 different kinds of cuisines, and they have their own app, and they have their own delivery drivers. So basically just I see vertically integrate the whole supply chain, but they have this space on, not Houston, the one that starts with D down on the Lower East Side, Lansing Delancey.

Alison Roman: Thank you.

Joe Weisenthal: And on the outside it says like a new kind of food hall. And I was like, oh, I like food hall. So I got walked in and there's just these, kiosk green screens. And on the screens there's, like a Mexican option, an Italian and a Chinese one at Japanese.

Alison Roman: It's like you're at the airport.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, it's like you're at the airport and then so there's a theory, 30 kinds of restaurants.

Alison Roman: Oh, now you guys are really selling it to me.

Joe Weisenthal: I know it's funny.

Alison Roman: To me, that is literally my personal hell. And I think also where they get you is they tell you a small business owner who's like a chef who has a restaurant, my rent's going up, I can't afford $20,000 in rent because blah, blah, blah, DoorDash. Okay. So they come in and say, we can give you the space, but no one can really eat in your restaurant. So you're basically cutting out the entire reason for a restaurant to exist. And there are so many restaurants whose business is like 85% delivery, and you walk in and they're empty, but they're able to stay alive because of delivery. So if you take away that rent and the need to staff and did it, that's pretty appealing to a small business owner. And I think it's very predatory. I think it's very sort of like we can help you stay alive. And it's like, well, at what cost? Because you're then sort of, you know, I don't know. And some, some of these businesses never start as a brick and mortar. They are only an idea. Or they do take big name chefs and say, we can do like a fried chicken concept with your name on it. And when you look on DoorDash or wonder or whatever, it looks like a real restaurant.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah. So you look like you think you're ordering from a neighborhood restaurant, right? But it's not a neighborhood restaurant.

Alison Roman: I've done that before. And then I like walked past where they were actually making the food. And I was like, wait a second.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, I've ordered from there.

Tracy Alloway: Speaking of hell. So one of the things that has changed in food media, over the years is I think the emphasis on esthetics. Right? So I, I think everyone probably does less. I certainly am guilty. But if I make something that I'm proud of, I take a photo of it, post it on social media.

Alison Roman: I didn't cook it. Otherwise I didn't cook it. There's no proof.

Tracy Alloway: How do you think about that particular aspect when you're coming up with recipes or, you know, deciding what to do with your food empire?

Alison Roman: Yeah. It's funny, I just wrote an article about this for the newly relaunched gourmet, magazine, which I don't know if you guys heard about that or what they're doing, but the containers trademark for gourmet, the old magazine, had last. That. They let it lapse. And so this group of people, one of whom was a friend of mine, took it over and relaunched it as a basically a website, a newsletter. So very interesting thing that they're doing is a very different tone of always very different vibe. They it's sort of like pirates that took over a ship and you're like, oh, this is not the same gourmet. But I think in a very fun and that's cool, smart way. Anyway, but I was thinking a lot about this recently because it feels like most people now, especially on the internet, are making food to look good. They're reverse engineering of what's going to look beautiful and what's going to look great. And this is going back to I worked at BuzzFeed Food for approximately eight months. 15 years ago, or ten years ago. How long ago? I don't know, I was too long ago, anyway, but it was sort of like I would watch them in the way that they considered what recipes to run and what they would make videos out of. And it was always like, well, what has cheese and what has cream and what has this? And it was always reverse engineered from a visual perspective. And I think that we're still sort of in that even if it's, you know, a lady in her kitchen or a guy in his kitchen with like a forward facing iPhone and.

Alison Roman: I so I as a reaction to this, I developed this recipe for milk cooking. Sorry, pork cooked in milk, which is a very old Italian restaurant recipe. It's ugly as hell. It is just sinful. It is beige and clumpy with milk curds and soft looking and it's really disgusting. But wow, does it taste good. It's like truly incredible. Some of the best tasting things are just like a bowl of slop. Are they look like it. Yeah. And I think it was sort of, you know, what about this food? Like, are we going to make this food on the internet anymore? Like because I had considered what what could I develop for this magazine that I wouldn't develop for myself? And I told my friend I was like, well, I would never put this on my own, really, because it's too ugly. But also, I understand that part of encouraging someone to eat something is it has to look good, and it also has to sound good. So the writing has to be there in the photo, has to be there, and everything works in conjunction. But it was just an interesting exercise, and I think that I said something to the effect of like, we're we're not developing recipes, we're designing them. And I think that a lot of people lead with esthetics and what they think will perform well versus thinking about it is something like a soulful, authentically created recipe.

Tracy Alloway: Can we just, return a little bit to the, tomato sauce? But I'm curious, you know, one another reason, we like to talk about this topic is because you get a snapshot into the consumer and pricing and all that, etc.. When did you conceive of this? Like when when did this idea that you're in launch it? Tomato?

Alison Roman: In 2023.

Tracy Alloway: So like, okay, so two and a half or three years later when you look at cost of jars. The glass jars, when you look at ingredients or rent like how is the math working out relative to what it looked like in 2023. And how volatile is it still in terms of being able to, you know, get a good price on the raw ingredients, at a good price on jars, a good price on shipping and stuff like that.

Alison Roman: Yeah, that hasn't fluctuated too much. Okay. Again, that's really a scale question. So the reason why DDC doesn't quite work for a business model in this way with something like tomato sauce is because jars are heavy, jars of sauce are even heavier. So you're shipping will always be the thing that gets you. And so there are you know, we looked into, you know, we had a Co-packer or a three PL in California and we're like, okay, so we're going to ship the sauce from Brooklyn to L.A. and then it's going to go out to the rest of the we're like, no, that's going to add $1.50 per jar or whatever. So you look at every consideration okay, this might be slightly more expensive here, but we're saving here. So that's actually the better choice. But again it's scale. So we could be jars could fluctuate within a few cents. The packing materials was something that we really considered because jars cannot explode on their way to you. The better the packaging, the more expensive the packaging. And so we someone told me it was like, they're like, it feels like an old school election box. We're like, how am I going to break into this box? She's like, but all the jars arrived intact and that was really important to us. So we spent a little bit more money on the packaging.

Joe Weisenthal: Wait, how do you actually evaluate the jars? Are you like tossing them around? Are you shipped them?

Alison Roman: Yeah. You send it to your parents, you send it to yourself. Here's a bunch of empty jars. Enjoy.

Joe Weisenthal: No, you put the sauce.

Alison Roman: Yeah. You, you there's like a lot of, like a few trial and error situations and some of them are a set of choices of like, oh, I don't like the way this is. Or how does it feel to open it? Is it complicated, is annoying. Is there too much material? Does it feel wasteful? All of those things were deeply, deeply considered. And then to say nothing of like, do you put a card in there? Do you put a note? Does it come with the rip it like the esthetic choices which also add cost? And so, you know, of course, that's why the obvious choice is to be sold in a store because you're not dealing with any of that. And I think a lot of, to me, respectable to see brands evolve into retail only. But at first doing the to see model, to like get people into it, to get people hook, to get people excited about a product, sort of. Then you can show those bigger retailers like, look at all the people who already love this product, who are going to buy it in your store.

Joe Weisenthal: So are you like maxed out capacity wise right now? Are you like busting at the seams in terms of how much you can move in a given week or month. With tomatoes on?

Alison Roman: Yeah, yes. That's great. Very much so. And it's good. And I think that the to me the biggest drawback there is that we launched in September. And also the reason it took so long is because I had a baby. I was like about to we were going to launch it and push it. And then I became too close to the due date, which is good because I went into labor a month early, but it I can't imagine having done that at the same time. So thank God I put a pause on it. I was like and we also redesigned the labels like it was a good reset. It was almost like a false start. But anyway, we launched in September and I had these beautiful photos taken and like I had all these ideas for campaign and marketing and we sold out immediately and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll do it the next week once we're back in stock. We kept selling out at such a clip that I couldn't really ever talk about it. So I feel like in a way we haven't, like, fully even launched with its full potential. Yeah.

Joe Weisenthal: That's interesting. Alison Roman, can you come back in six months or a year and like, you've had all of these conversations that we could do a to on what you've learned when. You're, when you get the Whole Foods contract? I'd be super interested what those discussions are actually like.

Alison Roman: We want to hear about.

Joe Weisenthal: Yeah, yeah. What the other half of the mountain looks.

Alison Roman: This is a perfect diary entry of following a small business. I really am love very, very start. And I think it would be really fun to come back if and when things change. And this has been great. I love talking about this stuff and what a pleasure.

Tracy Alloway: Tracy. That was a lot of fun. I don't know, you've probably noticed this too. We've probably talked about it. You know, if you look at the business section of the Apple Podcasts like best top podcast list, it's like dominated by like starting a business podcast, entrepreneurs. Maybe we should pivot into I love these conversations. Maybe we should pivot into, you know, diary of an entrepreneur type episodes. They're really fun. You learn a lot.

Joe Weisenthal: You know what I want to do? Yeah. The Odd Lots cooking show.

Tracy Alloway: What should.

Joe Weisenthal: Let's do a cooking video. Yeah. That would be great. Well, get, a recipe from Allison, and we'll cook it live. And, Bart from Butterworth’s. Yeah. These words and all the. And, the Zeno's pizza guys. Yeah, I could get on. Yeah. This is actually our book idea, because we never settled on a book that you and I want to write together, but we could just do a food. One where in each recipe, someone learn something about the supply chain for that business.

Tracy Alloway: That's a great idea.

Joe Weisenthal: If you're listening, if you're out there in publishing and you hear this up and you hear this, hit us up.

Tracy Alloway: That's right. No, that was a fascinating conversation. One thing I hadn't really considered that much is the difficulty of deciding when to scale before you have that big distribution contract, because, as Allison said, like, it does feel like a chicken and egg problem because you have to pitch to the grocery store or whatever, that you can actually produce this stuff at scale. And then you have to decide whether you want to invest at scale in order to be able to make the pitch.

Joe Weisenthal: No skill seems just sort of brutal in every respect, right? If you raise VC money, then you have a lot of money to pay back before you ever see a dime of profit yourself. Same obviously for lending. And that's probably particularly hard for this. And then just, you know, you have to get into a new facility that, chicken. I promise I'll say it. Definitely.

Tracy Alloway: It clearly doesn't hurt to have to be a celebrity, right? She sort of was hesitant about the word, but obviously a, a food celebrity.

Joe Weisenthal: And the other thing, it didn't come up in the conversation, but something that I thought about right after it's come up a little bit on our show is she doesn't have to pay the Facebook tax. Right? Most companies that are in the CPG, a big chunk of their money immediately goes to Instagram ads marketing.

Tracy Alloway: Yeah. And when you own a distribution list, you have a popular newsletter, etc. that you could sell out or run without having to spend, like create.

Joe Weisenthal: That's a well, as she said, like she hasn't even really been advertising it.

Tracy Alloway: Yeah, I know that's publicizing. That's a huge. List. And she's sold out. Yeah. It's crazy.

Joe Weisenthal: All right. Shall we leave it there?

Tracy Alloway: Let's, let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me @tracyalloway.

Joe Weisenthal: And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me @thestalwart. Follow our guest Alison Roman on Instagram. She's @alisoneroman and check out all of her various brands. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez @carmenarmen, Dashiell Bennett @dashbot and Cale Brooks @calebrooks And if you want more Odd Lots content, go to bloomberg.com/oddlots You'll find our daily newsletter. And we don't write about food very much but but maybe. Yeah. And you can join fellow listeners 24 seven in our discord, discord.gg/oddlots And if you enjoyed this conversation, then please leave a comment or like the video or better yet, subscribe! Thanks for watching.