Barbara Perry: I think we're at a fairly high threat level. I mean, over the past decade or so, we've had, I think, a total of five mass murders, mass homicides, resulting in 24 deaths that have been associated with some variant of right wing extremism, whether it's anti-Muslim violence or anti-indigenous violence or, in fact, anti-authority violence as well. And I think the threat continues because of the narratives that are associated with the active groups and active members now that do promote violence against targeted communities, promote violence against the state. So I think I see that threat, and I think even CSIs has seen that threat.

Barbara Perry: Yeah, I think it's an interesting question. I mean, I started looking at well, I started looking at white supremacy when I was working in Arizona in the 90s, but then in the Canadian context, started looking at the movement here probably around 2011 or so, when really the focus was on Islamist inspired extremism, very little attention being paid to the far right. I wasn't even sure if there was a far right threat at the time. So we launched the first study, and in fact, by the time we published in 2015, we were beginning to see quite a dramatic increase in the movement. Took some years, I think, for policymakers, for stakeholders to Recognize that. So it wasn't probably until 2018, 2019 that we started paying attention to it at the at the federal level. But during that period of time, the threat itself shifted quite dramatically from, you know, the, the threat of and, and it really wasn't a domestic threat. It really was exactly what you're seeing that is foreign fighters, folks going to fight wars or insurrections in other parts of the world. We really started to see that increase in the domestic threat associated with the far right. Again, probably around 2016, 2017, after the rise of Donald Trump, for example.

Barbara Perry: Yeah, it really was. I think it was an accelerator. As I say, we're already starting to see an increase in right wing extremism Anti-authority extremism in the Canadian context around 2018, 2019. And Covid, I think, really lit a fuse around, obviously anti-statist sentiment and activity, but also anti-Semitism and anti-Asian sentiment. Both of those communities were held accountable through different conspiracy theories for Covid. So they also became the targets of right wing extremists in many respects and, and others on the street. And I think the convoys also played a role in that, in bringing people into the movement through their grievances, through their fears and anxieties in terms of, you know, real or potential job loss, in terms of, you know, what they saw as government overreach with respect to vaccinations and, and health restrictions. So people were brought into a movement that was in many respects orchestrated by folks at least adjacent to, if not deeply embedded in far right narratives.

Barbara Perry: There are some that are variants, if you will, of previously existing groups, some that we thought were underground. So Proud Boys, for example, were designated as terrorist entities and re-emerged as Canada First. They're still active to some extent, but I think really what we're worried about now are what are referred to as active clubs. They're typically Accelerationists or Neo-Nazi collectives, if you will, that are informed by racism, by misogyny, by anti-feminist narratives. And they bring people into the movement through an emphasis on fitness, hence the name active clubs. So they bring people in through the in the name of fitness, they're typically all male groups. And so, I mean, I think the, the misogyny is, is embedded in them and slowly integrate people into the ideologies. I think affiliated with them are a new group, Second Sons, which emerged in some respects out of Diagolon, which we saw in during Covid days led by Jeremy Mackenzie. He then created Second Sons, which is a much more aggressive variant of that nationalist group, if you will. So that's sort of the shock troops or the or the feet on the ground. Then we have a group called also related to Mackenzie and related to Second Sons, the Dominion Society of Canada, which sort of is the political arm in many respects. So a registered, not for profit Organization that attempts to influence political policy and political narratives as well. So those are the sorts of groups that I think are really most visible right now. I mean, there are several others that are offshoots of those, but but those are the ones I think that security services are looking at most closely.

Barbara Perry: Yeah, I think that those sorts of geopolitical events do influence the movement here, and it can go in multiple directions. I remember after the attack in Israel just a couple of years ago, where you had, you know, some far right groups applauding both sides, both the attack on Israel, but also Israel's attack on subsequent forays into Palestine. And we're going to see that as well. I mean, they're just going to use it as. They're so good at leveraging and exploiting these kinds of crises to enhance their messages and to broaden their reach and to broaden their membership as well. So it's definitely going to have an impact here in terms of the movement, but also just individual actors acting on their anti-Semitism or acting on their anti-Muslim or anti-Arab sentiment.

Barbara Perry: I think the far left is. Far right is hard to define. The far left is even more difficult to define. It's even more disorganized, if you will. An issue oriented very often, you know, our animal rights activists, our left, our, you know, our, environmental activists, far, far left. It's really hard to define where they are. But I think in terms of risk, certainly we don't see the same threat of, physical violence, attacks on individuals because of their identity. In the Canadian context, we may see some property crime and, you know, attacks on buildings or facilities, associated with particular, organizations or corporations. But, you know, the the threat is, is far less, I think where we see where we might see violence is more and that, interaction and engagement with far right actors. So it protests, you know, we'll see violence coming from, from both sides. But I think that's the rare instance where we'll see physical violence coming from the far left.

Barbara Perry: I think I know the answer to this question, just based off the the rise that we have seen, and in violent extremism over the years here in this country. But do we have the right policies in place and tools to deal with it? Probably not. And in some respects, if we think about hate crime and I think it's a continuum and it's a political decision, often whether we label something as a hate crime or whether we label it as terrorism or extremism or either, of the above, even in terms of hate crime, you know, we have very limited tools, but I think more problematic than the tools that we have is the extent to which they're used. There's where the problem lies, I think, is, is in terms of enforcement. So if we look at hate crime legislation, for example, very rarely, is it invoked and even a terrorism, related offenses, up until about five years ago, great study by Michael Nesbitt, that showed that virtually all of the terrorism related charges that have been brought to bear, were around Islamist or, or similar, sorts of, movements and individuals. No terrorism charges have been brought against anyone, connected in any way with far right narratives. That's changed. We've seen a handful of cases in the last 3 or 4 years. And so I think we are seeing finally, you know, the courts to some extent and crowns are and prosecutors are catching up to the threats on the ground with the charging

Barbara Perry: one of the tools, that are that is at disposal is de-radicalisation programs. I am curious, how successful are they? In sort of preventing or decreasing the threat? Yeah. Well, first of all, many people who work in this space would say that, you know, we're not we're not necessarily de radicalizing people. The first step is to disengage them, to bring them out of the movement, to draw them back from from those narratives. And so we are seeing a number of programs, across the country, not nearly enough. You know, they're really clustered in Alberta and Ontario to some extent, Quebec. But it depends on what we're looking for. You know, there are exit strategies which are intended to bring people out of the movement once they're already in, and they often involve people who were part of, extremist movements themselves. So that mentoring approach seems to have been very effective. We're also seeing, some support for families, and, and communities where, you know, loved ones or members of the community seem to be moving down the garden path towards some of these movements. And so they will engage in sort of early intervention and try to stall that by providing alternative, sort of pro-social, opportunities, if you will. And, we're seeing some success there. The difficult challenge, I think, is in the prevention space, where we're trying to, you know, sort of counter some of those narratives or to provide teachers and caregivers with the tools that they need to identify a problem emerging, so that they're able to intervene so that they know what it is. They're looking for, those sorts of strategies, you know, we're a little more behind and it's more challenging, obviously, to, to prevent than it is to react.

Barbara Perry: Okay. Thanks for your time.