>> THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM IS FACING CRITICISM FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

SOME PEOPLE THINK THE PROGRAM SHOULD BE REFORMED, SOME THINK IT SHOULD BE CUT ALL TOGETHER.

DOES THE COUNTRY NEED IT?

I SAT DOWN WITH MIKAL SKUTERUD, AN ECONOMICS PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO, AND ELIZABETH LONG, AN IMMIGRATION LAWYER AND A PARTNER AT LM LAW GROUP.

ELIZABETH MIKAL, NICE TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING IT TO OUR MAKESHIFT STUDIOS.

THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM HAS COME UNDER FIRE ON ALL POLITICAL SPECTRUMS.

FOR INSTANCE, THE CONSERVATIVE LEADER PIERRE POILIEVRE, AS WELL AS BC'S NDP PREMIERE DAVID EBY ALL CALLING IT FOR IT TO BE SCRAPPED AS A RESULT, SAYING IT'S RESULTED IN RATHER HIGH YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT.

IS THIS CRITICISM JUSTIFIED?

>> THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THE GROWTH WE'VE SEEN IN YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IS NOT A CONSEQUENCE, A CAUSE OF THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM, THE GROWTH WE'VE SEEN IN YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IS A CONSEQUENCE OF A DRAMATIC DECLINE IN THE NUMBER OF JOB VACANCIES IN CANADA.

IN THE SUMMER OF 2022.

WE HAD. YOU MAY REMEMBER THE HEADLINES. WE HAD ALMOST A MILLION JOB VACANCIES IN CANADA OVER THE FOLLOWING THREE YEARS.

THEY'VE DROPPED BY MORE THAN 50%.

SO WE NOW HAVE LESS THAN HALF A HALF A MILLION JOB VACANCIES.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO STRUGGLE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO FIND A JOB.

WHEN THERE ARE NO NEW JOBS BEING CREATED, NEW LABOUR MARKET ENTRANTS LIKE YOUNG PEOPLE AND NEW IMMIGRANTS ARE GOING TO FEEL THAT THE MOST.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE SEE THE BIGGEST INCREASES IN UNEMPLOYMENT.

>> ELIZABETH.

>> AND REMEMBER, THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM PROBABLY CONSISTS OF ONLY ONE TENTH OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF WORK PERMIT HOLDERS THAT ARE HERE IN CANADA.

MOST WORK PERMIT HOLDERS HAVE OPEN WORK PERMITS.

THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM.

IN FACT, THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM IS THE MOST SCRUTINIZED AREA FOR WORK PERMITS.

THE EMPLOYERS ACTUALLY HAVE TO TRY TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN'T FIND CANADIANS WHO CAN DO THE JOB.

SO IF WE'RE LOOKING AT JUST NUMBERS, THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM FORMS SUCH A SMALL SUBSET OF THE JUST EVEN TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKERS IN CANADA.

>> IS THAT WE TALK ABOUT HOW SMALL OF A PERCENTAGE IT IS.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE PROGRAM THAT SEEMS TO BE THE SORT OF THE OBVIOUS SORT OF REASON PEOPLE ARE PICKING AT IT.

>> SO IT'S NOT RANDOM.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SEE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT AND YOU SEE DRAMATIC GROWTH IN THIS PROGRAM, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT YEARS, YOU KNOW, THE EMPLOYERS DO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS TEST TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN'T HIRE A DOMESTICALLY.

THAT TEST HAS BECOME A RUBBER STAMP.

SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, THE APPROVAL RATES WERE REACHING OVER 98%.

I MEAN, THEY WERE JUST RUBBER STAMPING.

AND SO THE GROWTH IN RECENT YEARS HAS JUST BEEN TREMENDOUS.

AND THE OPTICS OF THAT ARE NOT GOOD.

IT'S A SMALL PROGRAM, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE TO BE GROWING THIS PROGRAM AT A TIME WHEN THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS RISING.

>> ALL RIGHT, ELIZABETH, I WANT TO QUOTE THE PREMIERE IN B.C. SAID, WE CAN'T HAVE AN IMMIGRATION PROGRAM THAT RESULTS IN HIGH YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT, IS THE INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF TEMPORARY RESIDENTS, MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR YOUNGER CANADIANS TO FIND EMPLOYMENT.

I HEAR ANECDOTALLY FROM PEOPLE ACROSS THIS PROVINCE WHO ARE SAYING, MY DAUGHTER, YOU KNOW, MY SON IS STRUGGLING TO FIND A JOB.

IS THERE AN ACTUAL CORRELATION BETWEEN THE TWO?

WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF OVERALL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CANADA, WHO HAVE OPEN WORK PERMITS FROM THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM, THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS WORKED SINCE LAST YEAR TO DRAMATICALLY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO CAN QUALIFY FOR IT.

FOR THE MOST PART, RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE ABLE TO QUALIFY TO EMPLOYERS ARE ABLE TO QUALIFY TO EVEN APPLY.

THEY HAVE TO HAVE SALARIES OF HIGH WAGE, WHICH IN MOST PLACES ARE WELL OVER $30 AN HOUR.

SO THOSE KIND OF JOBS AREN'T REALLY THE KIND OF JOBS THAT COMPETE WITH ENTRY LEVEL JOBS.

THAT YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT SEEMS TO GROW IN THESE KIND OF SITUATIONS.

SO IF WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM, THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES.

AND I AGREE, THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES WITH TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM.

I AGREE THAT FOR A LOT OF PARTS. THE EXAMINATION OF THE RECRUITMENT MAY NOT BE.

IT'S KIND OF ARTIFICIAL. WHEN YOU ASK THE EMPLOYERS TO RECRUIT, TRY TO RECRUIT CANADIANS WHEN THEY HAVE ALREADY IDENTIFIED SOMEONE IN THEIR MIND, IS THIS RECRUITMENT REALLY REAL, OR IS IT MORE OF A SORT OF RITUAL, A SORT OF A RECRUITMENT REQUIREMENT THAT IS ARTIFICIAL?

>> CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE IN A PARTICULAR JOB FIELD?

>> RIGHT.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF AN EMPLOYER WANTS TO APPLY FOR A LAB OR MARKET IMPACT ASSESSMENT, WHICH IS THE BASIS OF THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM, THEY WOULD HAVE TO UNDERGO VERY RESTRICTIVE ADVERTISING.

SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO ADVERTISE ON THE JOB BANK.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO ADVERTISE IN AT LEAST TWO OTHER PLACES IN LABOUR CANADA.

AND ON THE ADVERTISEMENTS THERE.

THE WORDING ON IT IS VERY SPECIFIC.

SO YOU HAVE TO PUT THINGS LIKE WHAT LANGUAGE IS SPOKEN IN THE WORKPLACE, WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT DUTIES THERE ARE AND WAGES, ETC.

AND A LOT OF TIMES FOR EMPLOYERS, THIS IS NOT THE NORMAL WAY THAT THEY WOULD GO ABOUT FINDING SOMEONE.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, EMPLOYERS WHO COME TO US IF THEY WANT TO GO THROUGH THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM, WE WOULD HAVE TO ASK THEM TO RE-ADVERTISE OTHERWISE THEIR APPLICATIONS WOULD BE DENIED.

AND SO A LOT OF TIMES, THIS PROGRAM CREATES A SITUATION WHERE THIS ARTIFICIAL PART OF IT DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO GET LAB OR MARKET BENEFITS THAN FORCING THIS ARTIFICIAL RECRUITMENT.

>> ON A NOTE THAT ELIZABETH MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE IS THERE'S A PERCEPTION THAT TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKERS HOLD LOWER PAYING JOBS, AND IF THE PROGRAM WAS SCRAPPED, CANADIANS MIGHT NOT BE WILLING TO FILL THOSE ONES.

IS THAT A FAIR ASSUMPTION?

>> SO THE BIGGEST PART OF THE GROWTH IN THE PROGRAM IN RECENT YEARS HAS BEEN IN JOBS THAT REQUIRE HIGH SCHOOL OR LESS.

SO IT IS TRUE THIS GROWTH HAS MOSTLY BEEN VERY LOW SKILLED WORK.

YOU KNOW, WOULD THESE JOBS BE FILLED BY BY BY YOUNG CANADIANS IF THE PROGRAM WAS SHUT DOWN?

I WOULDN'T THINK OF IT LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, THAT'S THE WRONG WAY TO THINK ABOUT HOW ECONOMIES WORK, THAT JOBS ARE JUST FIXED THINGS, THAT SOMEBODY HAS TO FILL THIS SLAUGHTER, THE WHOLE ECONOMY STARTS TO FALL APART.

IT'S JUST NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

HOW ECONOMIES WORK, YOU KNOW, TIGHT LAB OR MARKETS, WE TALK ABOUT THEM LIKE THEY'RE A PROBLEM.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY VERY GOOD FOR AN ECONOMY, ESPECIALLY IN AN ECONOMY THAT STRUGGLES WITH PRODUCTIVITY LIKE CANADA DOES.

WHAT A TIGHT LAB OR MARKET DOES IS IT FORCES EMPLOYERS TO WORK A LOT HARDER TO TRY AND ATTRACT SCARCE WORKERS, TO TRY AND IMPROVE WORKING CONDITIONS, TO TRY AND IMPROVE PRODUCTIVITY, TO INVEST IN NEW TECHNOLOGIES, TO GET MORE OUT OF THE WORKERS THAT YOU CURRENTLY HAVE.

THESE ARE ALL THINGS CANADA IS IN DESPERATE NEED OF.

SO THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM IS NOT A HUGE PROGRAM, BUT THERE'S NO SINGLE SOLUTION THAT'S GOING TO SOLVE CANADA'S PRODUCTIVITY PROBLEMS.

AND THIS IS JUST PART OF THAT SYSTEM OF MOVING THE DIAL IN A WAY THAT'S NOT CODDLING BUSINESS IN THE WAY THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING FOR MANY YEARS.

>> ELIZABETH, DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT?

>> YEAH.

SO THE TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER PROGRAM HAS TWO SUBSETS.

THERE ARE THE WORK, LIKE SEASONAL AGRICULTURAL WORK, YOU KNOW, FACTORY WORK, SOMETIMES RESTAURANTS IN, YOU KNOW, NORTHERN OR LESS POPULATED AREAS WHERE THEY JUST CAN'T FIND WORKERS, THEY CAN'T FIND BODIES TO DO THIS WORK.

NOW, THIS HAS BEEN SEVERELY RESTRICTED RECENTLY BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

FOR THE MOST PART OF CANADA, THERE ARE SOME RURAL AREAS WHERE THERE AND SOME AREAS LIKE CONSTRUCTION WHERE THERE ARE STILL EXEMPTIONS.

THE OTHER PART OF IT ARE THE VERY HIGHLY SPECIALIZED KIND OF WORK, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN KINDS OF ENGINEERS, CERTAIN KIND OF SCIENTISTS, WHERE SOMEONE, THE EMPLOYER JUST CAN'T FIND THOSE KIND OF SKILLS TO DO THE WORK.

NOW WE HAVE A PROGRAM CALLED THE GLOBAL TALENT STREAM, WHICH IS A SUBSET OF THE LMIA THAT TARGETS STEM WORKERS.

SO ENGINEERS, SCIENTISTS AND THESE KIND OF THIS PROGRAM IS UNIQUE IN THAT IT DOESN'T REQUIRE THE EMPLOYER TO HAVE THAT SORT OF ARTIFICIAL RECRUITMENT.

THAT PROGRAM INSTEAD SAYS, WELL, EMPLOYER, YOU WANT TO HIRE THIS HIGHLY SPECIALIZED WORKER.

WE RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF THESE OCCUPATIONS, BUT CERTAINLY YOU HAVE TO PAY THE MEDIAN WAGE FOR THE OCCUPATION.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DEPRESS ANY WAGES.

BUT ALSO WE WANT YOU TO PROVIDE A LAB OR MARKET BENEFIT PLAN WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO PROVIDE THREE LAB OR MARKET BENEFITS, SUCH AS YOU'RE GOING TO BE HIRING MORE CANADIANS.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO HIRE THIS FOREIGN WORKER, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'RE GOING TO HIRE ANOTHER CANADIAN AS WELL.

YOU'RE GOING TO INVEST MONEY IN TRAINING CANADIANS AND SO ON AND SO ON.

SO THIS PROGRAM IS A VERY INTERESTING PROGRAM TO ME BECAUSE IT CUTS AWAY FROM THE ARTIFICIALITY OF THE RECRUITMENT.

AND IN THE MEANTIME, IT MAKES THE EMPLOYER, IF YOU REALLY NEED THIS PERSON, TO ACTUALLY ALSO GO AND PROMISE TO ADD LAB OR MARKET BENEFITS.

AND IT'S BEEN A VERY POPULAR PROGRAM BECAUSE IT'S FAST AS WELL.

>> DO YOU WANT TO CHIME IN?

>> THAT'S HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I MEAN, THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THIS PROGRAM EXISTS AS A WAY TO RECRUIT TALENT FROM ABROAD.

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF WHERE THIS PROGRAM DOES NOT NEED TO BE SHUT DOWN.

THIS IS EXACTLY AS THE US LOOKS TO SHUT DOWN THE HO-1B PROGRAM.

THIS IS THE ROUTE TO TO RECRUIT PEOPLE, GET THEM ON THE GROUND RUNNING VERY QUICKLY.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY MIXED PROGRAM.

THERE ARE PARTS OF IT THAT NEED TO BE CURTAILED, PERHAPS EVEN PHASED OUT, BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

>> IF YOU HAD THE EAR OF IMMIGRATION MINISTER LENA DIAB, IF THERE WAS ONE CHANGE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE TO THE PROGRAM, WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

>> SO I THINK THE LOW SKILL STREAMS NEED TO BE PHASED OUT.

THE COST HERE IS THAT EVERY TIME THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE GOES UP, THIS BECOMES A BIG ISSUE, RIGHT?

WHEN PEOPLE START NOT TRUSTING THE SYSTEM, QUESTIONING IMMIGRATION IN GENERAL BECAUSE OF A PROGRAM THAT'S ACTUALLY QUITE SMALL, THAT'S NOT WORKING RIGHT.

WE GOT TO DO THIS DIFFERENTLY.

WE GOT TO STOP THIS CYCLE OF THIS PROGRAM BECOMING SO CONTENTIOUS.

AND THE WAY TO DO IT, I THINK, IS THERE IS A PRICE THAT EMPLOYERS HAVE TO PAY WHEN THEY HIRE A TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER.

THEY PAY $1,000 PER POSITION THROUGH THIS LMIA.

SO THEY CAN, YOU KNOW, INCREASE THE PRICE. WHERE UNEMPLOYMENT RATES ARE HIGHER, THEY CAN INCREASE THE PRICE WHERE WE THINK THERE ARE OCCUPATIONS THAT ARE MORE SLACK.

THAT'S NOT WHERE WE WANT TO GO WITH THIS.

SO WHERE YOU SEE EMPLOYERS REPEATEDLY YEAR AFTER YEAR USING THIS PROGRAM, YOU CAN ESCALATE THE PRICE.

SO THE PRICE YOU PAY FOR AN LMIA GETS HIGHER AND HIGHER EVERY YEAR.

TO KIND OF WEAN THESE BUSINESSES OFF, I THINK OVER A 3 TO 5 YEAR HORIZON.

I'D LIKE TO SEE THE LOW WAGE STREAMS GET PHASED OUT.

>> OKAY, ELIZABETH.

>> I THINK THERE ARE SOME NUANCES TO THIS BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME JOBS THAT, IRRESPECTIVE OF, YOU KNOW, HOW HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO RECRUIT CANADIANS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT MANY CANADIANS WORKING IN THE FIELDS.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT MANY PEOPLE WORKING IN THE RESTAURANTS IN NORTHERN BC.

AND THERE ARE SOME SKILLS, EVEN IF IT'S LOW SKILLED, THAT EMPLOYERS ARE GOING TO NEED TO HIRE.

WORKERS WHO ARE WILLING TO DO THAT. I THINK IN TERMS OF THE HIGHER SKILLS, THERE ARE THERE ARE AMENDMENTS TO THE PROGRAM THAT SHOULD BE IN PLACE.

>> AND WHAT DO THOSE LOOK LIKE?

>> I THINK NUMBER ONE, LOOK AT THE GLOBAL TALENT STREAM AND LOOK AT WHAT WORKS IN THE GLOBAL TALENT STREAM, THE BENEFITS THAT THE EMPLOYERS ARE GOING TO BRING TO THE ECONOMY.

LOOK, AND DON'T THROW AWAY THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM THAT IS VITAL TO THE GROWTH OF OUR ECONOMY.

THAT'S VITAL TO OUR EMPLOYERS, TO OUR COMPANIES.

RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR LIVES IN CANADA, WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS, WHO HAVE BEEN EDUCATED HERE FOR YEARS, AND WE NEED PEOPLE IN CANADA TO BE TAXPAYERS FOR THE FUTURE.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF GOOD THINGS WITH OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

AND IF WE DON'T WORK TO KEEP THEM, THEN WE WILL SUFFER A GREAT LOSS FOR THE FUTURE IN TERMS OF OUR REPUTATION, IN TERMS OF OUR BUSINESSES AND IN TERMS OF OUR COMMUNITIES AS WELL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE.

MICHAEL, ELIZABETH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

REALLY APPRECIATE THE CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.